Indeed. Keep in mind you are in no way obligated to continue this conversation with him. You can at any point say, “I don’t want to talk about this any more” and change the subject. You don’t need to give a reason, either.
And this holds true for anyone, at any time, about any subject. It’s your choice who you converse with, and what you converse about. Don’t let him or anyone ever twist your arm into talking about something you don’t want to talk about.
If he can’t deal with it, I’d just walk away.
I would also keep in mind, that he most likely has been mainly surrounded by Christians his entire life. While, yes he may have an internal obligation prove he is right and you are wrong, at the same time he may genuinely be curious about your beliefs and how you have come to that conclusion. Don't totally shut him out just for asking you some questions, if anything I would encourage the curiosity but encourage him to be a little more open-minded and make sure he knows that you don't see him any differently because of his religious views and he shouldn't see you differently either.
The way OP described their interaction resembled religious bullying. There are no winners in arguments like this, and intellectual superiority should not be demonstrated. Everyone has their limits and it's important to recognize when lines are crossed.
>You don’t need to give a reason, either
I tell this to my loved ones all the time. Stop volunteering explanations you don't owe someone. You'd be shocked how many times if you just said "oh, no thanks" or something similar, that the conversation ends there. And if they do inquire for more- just refuse to give it to them.
Happens all the time at work. My coworkers will ask for permission to be off and get told no. Whereas I simply let them know when I will be gone and they just accept it.
Also, you can and should remind people that if you are politely listening to what they have to say, and they are not listening to what you have to say, then it's not a conversation, it's a lecture and you are under no obligation to continue to attend a lecture you didn't ask for.
>But suddenly he asks me what my beliefs are and what faith do I have. I already knew that he and his family are devout Christians,
Kind of the main issue here to be noted. Who asks someone about their beliefs and faith in general particularly when the conversation and situation had nothing to do with the question?
They seek out reasons for divisions.
I guarantee if you had responded that it was a private/personal matter that he would have tried to force the issue.
The religious demonstrate their lack of the strength of their own faith in their inabilty to accept anything but agreement with their beliefs because their beliefs are weak to begin with.
A lot of Christians I grew up with do this. It is easier to trip people up if it's a surprise attack. It's a way of evangelizing that usually does more harm than good.
I personally would ask out of curiosity because I've never been an Atheist. Maybe that's where this is going? Maybe he's curious and with some healthy boundaries y'all can start a respectful conversation.
I'm an Atheist, and I find it **incredibly rude** when a christian feels they have the right to ask me anything about my personal beliefs. It's akin to having them asking me how my uterus is functioning or if I have hemorrhoids. It's none of their effing business. And the fact that they think it's acceptable to do so (as, apparently you do, as well) is just disgusting.
I am a lifelong Atheist, and I don't want them to ask me anything. And, if they do, I just nope out and walk away. Life is so much easier when you live by the Pigeon Principle:
**Never get into a discussion with a theist. It's like playing chess with a pigeon. It doesn't matter if you checkmate them. They will just knock over the chess pieces, shit on the board, and strut around like they won.**
>why we don't see things evolve around us
Well, this isn't true at all!
I'm sure he's heard of different variants of COVID emerging, or new strains of influenza, or that penicillin resistance is a growing concern. This is evolution, and we see it in just a few short years. So multiply that by a couple hundred million years, and interacting with a couple hundred million species over a couple hundred million years of changing geography and climate...
Or you could just say that if not seeing evolution with his own eyes makes him think it isn't real, then he should have no problem understanding why you don't believe in his deity.
Also, I found it pretty hilarious that they apparently think that "seeing" evolution is required, but they have no issues with not seeing their own god. Even if they were right and evolution couldn't be seen with your own eyes, why should that convince us to abandon that idea and suddenly accept this other invisible thing they call god?
If someone tried to use that argument against me, I would just say "oh, so you don't believe in a god either then?" and watch their brain fry trying to talk themselves out of the hole they just dug.
Maybe he was never taught to use his "science hat". I'm Christian and grew up believing that Creation and Evolution didn't go hand in hand. He could have been in religious schooling up until now. Maybe he needs to deconstruct and learn that science isn't bad or doesn't go against Scripture. I used to have the same argument that he has.
That's a strong argument, and far from the only one, for why religious indoctrination is child abuse and teaching faith over reason is problematic even if was possible for all the rest of the religious pablum to be positive.
> Maybe he needs to deconstruct and learn that science isn't bad or **doesn't go against Scripture**.
Talking bushes, snakes, and donkeys are all scientifically verifiable.
The ability of all 8.7 million species of animal life surviving an 11 month long global flood on a hand-made wooden ark with only a pair of each species and 8 caretakers is totally possible.
Yeah, scripture is totally compatible with science.
Not everything in the Bible is literal. But can you imagine the work and effort it would take to keep all the animals happy and healthy plus the only 8 people who worked the ship! And the ship! The maintence and hopefully a system to divert water would be insane! That would be absolutely wild! And don't get me started on the populate the earth with just them... :/.
> Not everything in the Bible is literal.
Which is one of the problems with a book that people base their worldview upon. Any book that is as open to interpretation as the bible is useless for determining one's moral code.
There’s literally been clear evolution in our recent time in Ukraine around Chernobyl. The wild life has evolved to be resistant to cancers and radiation.
Some animals had offspring that died from the radiation. but radiation causes mutations. Some of those mutations ironically make the organism hardy against radiation! So over the course of many generations, perhaps in the first generation, only one puppy in a litter survived... then that puppy finds another puppy from another litter that survived, and those two dogs mate and have more puppies... this time 3 of the litter of 10 survive... then those 3 go on to have more puppies... then 5 survive out of 10. And on that goes until more and more survive. That's evolution. It happens over generations.
What came first, the chicken or the egg?
Two non-chickens mated and produced an egg. The creature growing in the egg was chicken-esque. Then subsequent generations of eggs would have produced something more and more like a chicken until there was an egg that produced what we know as a "chicken".
A non-chicken didn't just miraculously BECOME a chicken spontaneously.
Good points!
Just to add, scientists routinely study how fruit flies can evolve and adapt because they have very short life spans.
https://www.the-scientist.com/fruit-flies-evolve-in-time-with-the-seasons-study-69816#:~:text=Fruit%20flies%20are%20already%20known,within%208%20to%209%20generations.
I still think that people who insist that evolution isn’t real should be given the earliest developed vaccines, rather than the newly developed ones. They should of course be given to option to change their stance on the matter.
Absolutely true.
ALSO, Cichlids (the fishes) are evolving to form new species.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-extraordinary-evolution-of-cichlid-fishes/
>he just interrupted me and changed the topic to a different argument
This is called a Gish Gallop. He’s not trying to have an actual debate, and you’re wasting your time trying. He’s never going to listen or accept anything you say.
The most effective thing to do is ask them questions about their own beliefs. Or so I’ve heard. I don’t have the patience for that. I’m not a persuader. But others have had decent results.
I fucking hate it when people Gish Gallop.
It's painfully obvious to anyone who cares that answering questions is always more difficult and takes longer than *asking* a question.
Whenever someone asks what your beliefs are, it's best that you ask them "Why do you want to know?"
Also, prepare them for the possibility that they may not like what they're going to hear and that they have to be mature about it and be prepared.
It's such a sensitive topic that I'm surprised people don't actually consider that there are people who won't agree with it. Same with politics.
It seems like he was looking for validation.
His interrupting you was his attempt at controlling the narrative. IF you converse with him again, don't let him get away with that. He'll bury you in endless word salad, questions and semantics if you do.
I'm sorry you had to deal with that.
He's been trained that asking you intrusive questions like this is evangelism - a sacred duty of his faith, which is what makes him feel justified. My solution is to nip it in the bud by simply observing the fact that evangelism is fundamentally about coercing someone to think and behave like you.
"I'm sorry, \[friend's name\], but I find evangelism to be morally problematic. I'd appreciate it if you didn't try it with me."
"You have become the stereotype. Anybody can can ask endless interrupting questions, but if you don't even try to understand the answers, what's the point?"
The point is, they've been brainwashed into thinking anyone who doesn't believe in their faith will get set to hell, so it's their duty to "save" people by converting them. If the answer they received isn't one that they can regurgitate a memorized counterargument to, they try a different question in hopes that one would stick.
They don't want to understand you, besides the parts that they can weaponize to convert you.
Why do you believe that?
The Bible.
Why do you believe that?
It's the word of god.
Why do you believe that?
And keep going until one of you gets bored.
He’s an alternative life form.
Or he’s saying “how do you know they haven’t”
Or any other of myriad thoughts that a cryptic wink might inspire.
Keep ‘em guessing. They hate that.
Repeat after me:
"Look, I'm not going to discuss this with you, because it's none of your business. Please don't bring it up again."
When he inevitably brings it up again, call him out for his bad manners, and tell him that shitty rude disrespecful Christians like him turned you away from God in the first place. Then walk away. Unfortunately, whatever friendship you may have had with this person is already over.
Christians are incapable of minding their own business, and they think everyone owes them something. So don't be too surprised if he turns feral, just be prepared.
If you do see him again, try to push back on him personally
"Why do you want to know? Are you having doubts? Do you want to talk to someone and get out of the church?"
I've found it's easier to always answer everything with a question. If they ask a question, try to get clarification. Like what makes you think the universe had a creator? Is the creator all knowing? Is the creator all powerful? Why did the creator make cancer? Why does the creator care if we believe in it? Who created the creator?
Just ask that last question first.
The universe must have a creator!
Does the creator need a creator?
If no, then why does the universe need one?
If yes then it’s turtles all the way down.
And if man is made in god's image, and that's why catholics won't let women enter the priesthood, then why does god need a penis? There are no female gods, according to them. Does he need it to pee?
He will never "mind his own business". I used to be that guy when I was a teenager. He cares about you and he thinks he is saving your soul from eternal torment, and he hasn't realized yet that that means he's worshiping an evil entity (who fortunately doesn't exist, but that second realization will come later).
The best way to shut him up about it? Tell him you will not speak to him again until he reads Judges chapter eleven. Trust me. He will have an excuse after he reads that, but the seed will have been planted.
I’d probably tell him that his constant interruptions and changing topics shows he obviously doesn’t want a genuine, honest discussion but just to convert you. That’s not going to happen - and this is an inappropriate place to be doing it anyway.
The universe must have a creator? How does he know that?
We do see things evolve around us. There's literally studies on this.
If he keeps interrupting you on those then ass if he is even interested in hearing and learning ornif he is just trying to catch you at some "I don't know" point.
Because "I don't know" is not a bad answer. You can use that and when he then goes into how the Bible says God did.. Then ask about how that was verified.
Ask which science says that God did those things.
Whenever a christian (or Muslim) asks what you believe, it can be translated to: do you believe the same as me? if not, I am better than you, and you must start believing the same.
Can do👍...
God - the wholey Ninjitsu master, Raikou-sama.
Religious items - scrolls, the Murasame and nunchuku.
Beliefs - fitness, love, death metal, thunder strike of wholiness.
Popes - Gandhi and nun Chuck Norris.
Explain that even if you're wrong, your conclusion is reasonable based on all the awful things God does in the Bible and he has to admit that if he's honest.
Don't rely on science or logic, they don't care about that. Focus on conscience and morality.
"I'm happy to discuss this, but know I will have answers to most, if not all of your questions, and you most likely won't like them."
Or:
"I'd rather we didn't talk about this, as it has never gone well in the past."
All you have to say is you’re not comfortable talking to him any longer. If he has the nerve to ask why just look at him like he’s nuts and say he’s unaccepting of other’s beliefs.
Why do we feel the need to slink back away from these people? They have their beliefs. We have ours. Why can't we stand on that one true item while talking to theists?
I’m perfectly happy to tell them to “go fist your mother” if they refuse to show reciprocate respect. The shock usually stops ‘em dead and their brain reboots. There are plenty of respectful religious people, unfortunately they are not the loud ones.
I live in a red state so my usual answer is it's not a good fit for me and trying to find the right path to go. Some think I'm looking for a different church or another Christian denomination like Catholic, protestant etc. I just go my merry way. I have gotten the red eye from my cousin who is a pastor.
> I'm not trying to tell the guy to f*ck off, just politely ask him to mind his own business.
Try "I am happy with my beliefs and I believe I have done my due diligence in ensuring that they are rational. I appreciate that you have different beliefs, and I'm going to assume you've done your due diligence for them. That being the case, however, means I have very little interest in discussing those beliefs. So I would like you to decide whether you're going to pester me and thus make it so we're not friends any more, or deal with those differences in a mature way and let it be. I would prefer you pick the second option, but I am prepared for the first."
Ask him why god created us so we could choke to death. We eat, drink, and breathe through the same tube. That’s an obvious design flaw. If we were created by an omniscient and omnipotent being, then it means god deliberately created us so we could choke to death. Why would this be important?
I have a coworker who is very devout. Not a rabid republican christian, but a very kind man. He and I were chatting and he tossed out the usual, "Only Jesus was perfect". I reminded him that I wasn't a believer and he immediately went into the "Watchmaker" argument.
I told him that this discussion is not going to happen for two reasons.
1) I've heard your argument many times and it only works in hypothetical church discussion.
2) My way to discuss this could be considered hurtful or offensive to you, and I consider you to be a friend.
That shut down the proselytizing and the subject was changed.
The reason why people are recommending you to tell him to fuck off is precisely because politeness doesn't work with his type and also he's being really rude towards you right now.
I'd let him know first thing tomorrow he made me uncomfortable with the discussion and if he wants to continue the discussion will be two-sided. I'd also let him know he probably won't like some of my answers and you'd hate for it to affect our friendship so you'd rather not discuss it.
At that point it's up to him.
Maybe something like:
*I don’t believe in *any* messengers or gods for the same reasons you don’t believe in John Smith, Muhammad, Zeus or Vishnu.*
*Imagine if you came here to workout, but a devotee decided you need to hear about Hare Krishna.*
*I hope we can respect each other’s boundaries and still be friends, but I will totally understand if you decide that isn’t an option because of my atheism.*
"Oh! You're right! I'm on your side of the argument now." Say it, make him believe it, be done with it. Basically tell him you don't care enough to even discuss it.
I'd honestly just flip the script on him and make him back up his beliefs. Also, dont let him switch topics, call him out on it and when he gets uncomfortable tell him that thats exactly what he did to you last time.
If he cant see the fault in this then he's probably not the kind of person I'd associate with.
You have your views which are based on faith and I respect that, I have my views based on research and science. If you can't respect that then please let's respect that we have different views, but I don't want to discuss this with you to validate your faith, as you don't want to listen to what I have to say.
I had this happen to me. Kept asking to buy my soul for a little money as a way to prove that I believe my soul is real.
And his views on abortion!!! He had been brainwashed at some religious school and had no idea how abused he had been.
There’s always the option of just pretending you totally agree with them and trying to prove them right intentionally. When you can’t, they’ll have to try to explain why you can’t.
I suggest you brush up on all the arguments he's going to make and ask him to have a civilized conversation where you are not interrupted. This in itself is going to bother him so much, that he wouldn't ask you again. Bonus points will come to you if you remind him not to interrupt when he does.
Most of the time, the christian knows that whatever argument they have, you'll be able to refute that with great ease. This creates a cognitive dissonance for them. Like on one side they find your responses logical enough to make them think about abandoning religion, but on the other side abandoning religion is sinful to them and therefore they wouldn't do it. Forcing them to sit through the cognitive dissonance will actively give them psychic damage. And upon receiving this psychic damage, they'll learn either to accept your position as an atheist or leave you alone and not bring this topic up again.
Frankly if you know any arguments they will be making for any topic that they think that by debating it with you they can bring you into their cause, and present a rebuttal for it, you would be successfully giving them psychic damage from the cognitive dissonance. This method works best for any religious and political debates. Like you can see their braincells committing suicide because of your logical reasoning.
Any time people try this on me, I just tell them I don't discuss politics or religion. At my age I've made up my mind, nothing they say is going to change it.
Dunno if someone already told you this, but I couldn't find someone saying it.
First like many suggested, say "I don't want to talk about it anymore, please be respectful of that."
If he doesn't, then start answering everything, and I mean literally everything with a "I don't know", you could add, "why don't you find out and tell me about it" if you'll like, but that last bit can be counter productive.
Saying simply I don't know to everything will get him drained, because his brains will run out of things to say really quickly, and eventually he is going to come with a version of "it's I don't know all you can say?" and guess what...
Yup, it is not that polite, but he isn't being polite with you either, next day see if he has seen the light, or not, if he doesn't, repeat until he understands you're not going to engage seriously.
Lots of potential solutions to difficult to grasp concepts. The Christian “solution” is only one, and it’s arbitrary and based on pre bronze age mythology.
I’m personally starting to think that Mary was knocked by a dude from a marauding group from Northern Europe- England or Belgium perhaps . Euro Jesus was concerned the old fashioned way.
Lots of theories.
If you want to continue talking with him but just not about that ask him to change the topic tell him you would rather not discuss this topic and if he can't respect that then you might have to just not talk to him at all.
Always wanted to get into HEMA. I'm a history dork, but I'm a muay thai guy. It pains me to know these fools are ruining shit you (we) love.
Just do what I do. Pretend to be a pagan, and say your gods are the gods of war, and their singular god is the god of peace and love.
I work in construction and had to tell someone if they continued to try to talk to me about religion we were going to have a legit problem. Sometimes you have to be direct. It's probably not the best option, but it's worked for me. 🤷
Speaking from experience, I can assure you that this is an isolated incident. We try to keep our community as inclusive as possible so extremists usually leave in anger or are kicked out early on.
If you still wanna give it a go, check out r/wma and use the HEMA Alliance club finder to see if there are any clubs you can join.
Right on, that's what's up.
I do plan on checking into that soon hopefully, so Thanks for the link. I do have to wait for my little ones to get a bit older, so I can have the time and money to fully dedicate to it.
My go to Is to ask them why it’s so important that I believe in their god? I sometimes get a comeback of saving my soul. But I just remind them that’s not their job. It’s always been a good exit line
You have to watch out for christians in HEMA clubs, they tend to be a litte deus vult, if you know what i mean. I think thats part of what attracts them to it.
Yes, but the HEMA community in general has been able to keep them at bay. We try to have an inclusive space for minorities so religious nutjobs are either kicked out, leave in anger, or keep their beliefs to themselves.
My favorite tactic with these people is to present them with the Epicurean Paradox and as soon as they say evil exists because mankind has free will, I hit them with Isaiah 45:7
They shut the fuck up pretty quick when they realize you know this stuff better than they do.
"This is my zen place. I come here to free myself from stress and anxiety. The conversation you're asking me to have is an argument that results in the opposite. Let's please talk about something else."
Oh, my problem would be that I would answer all his questions, to the point where he gets angry, but it would still be my fault.
My go to is "I'm OK with not knowing. I have absolutely NO desire to make up magical stories to explain things I don't know. We are always learning more. Why do you think the bible says not to eat pork? I can tell you what I think. I think 3000 years ago, people didn't know about parasites and germs and stuff, and if they didn't cook certain foods properly they would get sick. So, old tribal leaders wanted to keep their people safe, keep them from doing that, so they made up a story "you will be smited by god if you do that" to get people to stop doing things that were mysteriously dangerous or that they simply didn't approve of (like I bet it was a straight man that came up with "Look, gay sex is bad, god will send you to hell", maybe had someone hit on him and it made him uncomfortable... but he was in charge, and when he says "gay sex is bad, god will damn you to hell" people believe it.)
That's how I think all the stuff in the bible came to be. Old men trying to teach literal children who didn't even know what "gravity" is and what "germs" are how to live, putting not just a "that's not a good idea" spin on it, but actual "YOU'LL SUFFER FOR ALL ETERNITY IF YOU DO THAT!" spin on it.
I've seen absolutely nothing that contradicts that. If you think long and hard about it, you'll agree with me... so best you not do that.
Personally, I would refuse to engage in that conversation, and let him feel like he "won." And then, I would pointedly insert my Airpods, and proceed to ignore him. I owe him *nothing*, least of all an explanation of what I believe, or not believe.
I’d draw a parallel with someone finding out you’re vegetarian. They suddenly think they have to debate you & convince you of the errors of your ways, when in fact it’s a deeply-held moral position that’s been given a lot of thought.
People usually shut up eventually.
Tell him that you don't care about people's beliefs because they are strictly personal, like their 'body count' etc. If he insists, tell him that then you're entitled to violate his privacy too and you're going to ask him about his sexual fantasies.
You’re very kind. Draw your lines, but you may have to continue to cut him off as soon as he starts.
I have many family members that are devout. They won’t stop. It’s a goal and a command to bring more people in to that religion (witnessing). They believe they get kudos from their god. That’s why they hit the streets every Thursday. They also believe when they die their god is going to give them crowns for this, but they’re s’posed to give them back I understand. (I didn’t make the rules). I think you may have to push back as hard as they push.
It sounds like the problem is not that you lack responses but that he is not listening and not letting you speak.
There is not an easy solution for this. I usually just broken record “May I speak!l until it sinks in. And give me silence, anytime they interrupt again. I go back into “May I speak?” broken record mode again.
If you do this give them a chance to speak after you have made one or two points or have simply said “I don’t think you are sincere in your questions and I don’t choose to have this conversation with you until you are ready to be honest with yourself and me.”
Try asking him not to continue this discussion but if, after that, he insists on continuing, you do need to make a decision as to how much of his disrespect you are willing to accept.
That is what his banging on about his religion, and not allowing you to speak, is: disrespect.
Good luck.
It takes two to have a conversation. You don't have to agree to an interrogation. And him interrupting you is disrespectful.
Tell him to treat your views with respect and you'll do the same for him. If he gets arsy, walk away.
Even if you counter every argument 100% successfully, he will resort back to 'faith' which you can't challenge because it's belief for sake of belief despite all evidence to the contrary.
Just don't have these conversations, it's not worth it.
>He started asking me stuff like why the universe must have a creator
That's not really a question he'd ask. If he's asking questions, then it's polite (but not mandatory) to satisfy his curiosity. If he's just trying to convert you, then you shouldn't pretend that his efforts are welcome. "Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig." (Heinlein)
'Despite what you've been taught, your purpose in life is not to convert me or anyone else you meet into your club.
I wanted to tell you about Noam Chomsky(insert author/musician/subject)'. Begin rattling off trivia about 'Noam Chomsky' every time religion is slid into your conversation. It may take a few conversations but eventually he will dread hearing about Chomsky enough, he'll avoid the topic.
>Every time he presented an argument I tried to refute him, but when he realized I actually had a response he just interrupted me and changed the topic to a different argument. This went on for about 10 minutes
>I'm not trying to tell the guy to f*ck off
Why not? He clearly has no concept of boundaries.
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Dude.You made a HUGE mistake engaging in any way with a theist. Your response to his questions should have been: "My beliefs are private, and I do not discuss them with anyone."
If he tries again, you're going to have to disengage and use the: "I do not wish to discuss this with you any further. As an Atheist, I find your questions to be invasive and irritating. "
Good luck with that, though. They can't help themselves, and he won't stop until you are forced to get in his face.
I'm kind of petty when it comes to this particular kind of interaction but I'd just start talking to him like he's a 4 year old.
Let him say his argument and only respond with "good job buddy!" Or anything of the sort. Basically I'd pretend he's a child telling me about something he learnt in school that day.
That doesn't sound very friendly. I'd change the subject to anything else and I'd state, clearly, I don't want to have religious conversation with them. Then I'd start avoiding them until I found a new gym. Gross.
Don’t try to answer his questions. Just ask questions back asking him to prove his point of view. Send him down the rabbit hole and he will get frustrated and give up.
If he starts up again, tell him you are tired of answering his wrongful beliefs about what you believe, especially when he switches subject on being countered instead of examining his views.
He won't be able to change his ways to accommodate your simple request and will probably shut up.
Or he'll double down, and you'll need to use the f\* off option.
I would love to be interrogated. Id probably present them viewpoints they've never considered before.
I be street epistemologying all over that conversation
Ask him if the reason it’s so important to him is that his own ‘faith’ is shallow and way too easily threatened. People with real deep faith don’t need to argue it with others. BTW; I’m a hard atheist but I know one genuine believer. He’s a cool guy, kind, doesn’t need to preach. Just always acts out of love. It’s a little weird but I’d trust him with my life.
"Well evolution takes millions of years with slight variations over generations. I can give you a list of books to read if you want to learn more on the subject.
Simple - Mind You Own business, if you wish for us to be friends.
I will add this - most of them know very little about putting the teachings of Jesus (which are non denominational) into action. So you could ask another question: "Do you believe in Salvation by faith or by works?" This is a question Christians rarely, if ever, ask themselves, but a question that is often pondered in seminary. Then you remind him that almost all of Jesus' teachings are based upon what you do - works. Then you turn it around and ask him what he thinks of this. What does he think about immigrants? What does he do to help the less fortunate? No, not by tithing, but what does he do himself? Then ask him what he thinks of Matthew 25: 31- 46 and the beatitudes? Shouldn't those be paramount over the Ten Commandments, since those are Jesus' own words?
If you go this route, by now, he is either completely flustered, he is angry at you for some weird reason, or you have introduced introspection (which, again, is a basic principle of Jesus' teachings).
Then you close the discussion by saying, "I do not declare what I believe. I prefer to let my works talk for me".
Or, if you can stand it ask him to slow his roll just a little. One topic a day. This also means he can't ask an unrelated question and switch topics when you have an answer.
So one day is about an uncaused cause, and how adding a complex actor, a Creator, doesn't simplify the question of *what came out of nothing?*. It in fact forces that impossible sounding answer.
No switching to evolution because all that happened either long long before, or some days before. Either way **before** and unrelated. If he wants another day, where you look a photosensitive cells that aren't eyes, or the three kinds of mammals that show an evolutionary path.
Rather than answer his questions, turn them around on him and have HIM defend himself.
If god is all merciful, then why would he condemn someone who hasn't visited the sick in prison to 'eternal punishment' (Matthew 25)?
According to him man is too complex to have evolved and therefore needs a creator. It follows that god is certainly more complex than man therefore, according to his own argument, god must need a creator. Who created god?
> but when he realized I actually had a response he just interrupted me and changed the topic to a different argument.
By going on the offensive and asking questions, you can avoid falling into that trap. If he doesn't answer your questions, just interrupt HIM and keep on demanding an answer.
Man they go right to recruitment mode…Whats funny is that they dont want you going straight to questioning their beliefs and trying to convince them of the contrary. I enjoy shutting them down w “look Im a lifelong athiest and I’m not interested in debating religion with you. Have the same respect that you expect”
Just use the absolute go to and ask him if he believes in any of the other parade of gods in all of history that came well before his infant 2000 year old god.
Turn the tables on him. Find out if he's gay or straight, then ask him highly personal questions about his sex life and check if he has any kinky thoughts. be as intrusive as possible. Go into as much detail as possible.
Then, when he protests, you can tell him why, and to shut the fuck up!
Say I don't interrogate you about your beliefs please don't interrogate me about mine.
I would be prepared for him to cut contact because most people like that are very close minded
It just bemuses me this kind of thing. Here in Sweden that would be almost unheard of. I would imagine a majority here are atheist or agnostic.
Just ask him why he thinks \*his\* particular god, of all the thousands that have been invented so far, is the right one? Ask him if he believes in Zeus, or Odin, or Vishnu, or Ra. And if not, why not...They are just as believable.
When a religious person starts asking me those questions in a non-hostile way, I consider it a good opportunity to enlighten them.
Probably zero odds of actually convincing them though.
I would not normally be the initiator of discussions like that, unless they were about to do or said something that seems nonsensical.
I don't remember the start of it but I had a number of conversations with a coworker after finding out they didn't believe in things like radio carbon dating, sediment layer analysis, etc science backed concepts that provided evidence of the world being more than a few thousand years old. I had trouble understanding how a guy who worked in IT and was a mechanic had more faith in his religion than in the technology he used every day to earn his living... Definitely lots of religious people in science and technology fields though. I really don't understand how they compartmentalize their critical thinking...
If faith was truly faithful, to be believed without question, people wouldn't need to be convinced. The lack of faith shown by those proselytizing profusely or forcibly is very telling.
For so many of those theists types saying anything other than agreeing with them is telling them to fuck off in their minds.
I think because they know deep down that it’s not true. So finding like minds helps tamp down logic and reason and they don’t have to be afraid of the dark now because someone is there to hold their hand.
‘Sure, sounds good. But if you could let me finish my responses instead of interrupting me to make a different point I would really appreciate the polite consideration.’
That's not a friend, it's an acquaintance. He is evangelizing. Just tell him you're not interested and practice more avoidance. Sometimes acquaintances become friendships, sometimes they don't. Such is life.
I'm always amused by the disingenuousness of the religious argument. They pretend to argue an abstract, like that the universe needs a creator, but the only possible Creator is the one invented by Bronze Age nomads.
You’re an atheist. You lack belief. You don’t have to justify your beliefs because you have none. People confuse atheism with anti-theism. Beyond that, “I’m not interested in your beliefs” can suffice.
I would just say, look, we don’t agree and we’re not going to change each other’s minds, so let’s change the subject. If he refuses, just keep him at arm’s length or completely avoid from now on. Badgering someone is not acceptable.
Boundaries. Set them and defend them.
“I don’t want to talk about religion anymore.” If he pushes, instate stronger and stronger consequences, up to going no-contact or ending the friendship. If he can’t respect boundaries, he’s not worth having as a friend.
If you don't want to be rude, just say "I don't want to discuss this" and remain silent. Let him chatter on, ask questions, but just say nothing. It will freak him out.
Knowing someone is a devout Christian I would never use the term friend.
An acquaintance would be a better description.
Devout means they have convinced themselves that they cannot be bothered by any ideal that's not theirs.
Good luck with getting these numbnuts out of your life. These people latch on to anyone stupid enough to engage them. They are the original trolls. They were trolling people before the internet existed.
You say you will try to establish some boundaries to maintain the relationship.
Excellent! A good and kind thing to do.
Just be prepared to have him ignore them and go trampling around like an enraged elephant.
"You think atheists haven't considered all these very common questions? Why don't you google it?" And hope he does a bit of googling (although religious organizations have so much money, they can afford premium SEO.)
if you are open to a conversation about faith with him, i’d look into street epistemology, and have a conversation with him that follows that format.
otherwise, i would avoid arguing about ontological arguments in general. it’s usually very unproductive.
This happens because we enable intrusive religious people to think they have the right to an explanation. The more people that tell them to fuck off, they’ll learn.
In a situation where I’m a regular and don’t want to deal with repeated conversion attempts, I just say “I prefer not to discuss religion in public,” (or at work, while I’m eating, while I’m working out: whatever applies). And I stick to my guns.
I’d do that even if I did follow a particular religion, but it is nice to have the option to simply not give an attempted proselytizer anything that might make them more determined.
Many take it personally if we don't believe what they believe.
It's even deeper with theists because it causes them to question their own beliefs.
There is nothing wrong with saying "we see things differently and I prefer not to discuss it beyond that.".
You don't owe an explanation to anyone. If he presses you again just ask him if he is interested in becoming an atheist. If he says "no" then tell him it is probably best not to ask atheists questions about atheism then because that is really the only reason anyone should ask.
I am religious, but never would I ask someone's religion. That is a personal choice, and you don't bully someone due to their faith. if u choose not to believe in God or Satan, that is your choice. If you ever choose to get more answers, you xan always ask someone you trust !!
Indeed. Keep in mind you are in no way obligated to continue this conversation with him. You can at any point say, “I don’t want to talk about this any more” and change the subject. You don’t need to give a reason, either. And this holds true for anyone, at any time, about any subject. It’s your choice who you converse with, and what you converse about. Don’t let him or anyone ever twist your arm into talking about something you don’t want to talk about. If he can’t deal with it, I’d just walk away.
"You're in my personal space, please stop"
I would also keep in mind, that he most likely has been mainly surrounded by Christians his entire life. While, yes he may have an internal obligation prove he is right and you are wrong, at the same time he may genuinely be curious about your beliefs and how you have come to that conclusion. Don't totally shut him out just for asking you some questions, if anything I would encourage the curiosity but encourage him to be a little more open-minded and make sure he knows that you don't see him any differently because of his religious views and he shouldn't see you differently either.
The way OP described their interaction resembled religious bullying. There are no winners in arguments like this, and intellectual superiority should not be demonstrated. Everyone has their limits and it's important to recognize when lines are crossed.
Intelectual superiority would never be recognized
That's better worded than how I expressed it
>You don’t need to give a reason, either I tell this to my loved ones all the time. Stop volunteering explanations you don't owe someone. You'd be shocked how many times if you just said "oh, no thanks" or something similar, that the conversation ends there. And if they do inquire for more- just refuse to give it to them. Happens all the time at work. My coworkers will ask for permission to be off and get told no. Whereas I simply let them know when I will be gone and they just accept it.
Ah, it's the old "it's better to beg forgiveness than to ask permission" line I use at work all the time.
Also, you can and should remind people that if you are politely listening to what they have to say, and they are not listening to what you have to say, then it's not a conversation, it's a lecture and you are under no obligation to continue to attend a lecture you didn't ask for.
Also, if they go the road of free speech, tell them free speech doesn't make it mandatory for you to listen.
>But suddenly he asks me what my beliefs are and what faith do I have. I already knew that he and his family are devout Christians, Kind of the main issue here to be noted. Who asks someone about their beliefs and faith in general particularly when the conversation and situation had nothing to do with the question? They seek out reasons for divisions. I guarantee if you had responded that it was a private/personal matter that he would have tried to force the issue. The religious demonstrate their lack of the strength of their own faith in their inabilty to accept anything but agreement with their beliefs because their beliefs are weak to begin with.
Yes exactly, they hate the strength of those who refuse to accept their lie and be controlled, because of their own weakness.
A lot of Christians I grew up with do this. It is easier to trip people up if it's a surprise attack. It's a way of evangelizing that usually does more harm than good. I personally would ask out of curiosity because I've never been an Atheist. Maybe that's where this is going? Maybe he's curious and with some healthy boundaries y'all can start a respectful conversation.
I'm an Atheist, and I find it **incredibly rude** when a christian feels they have the right to ask me anything about my personal beliefs. It's akin to having them asking me how my uterus is functioning or if I have hemorrhoids. It's none of their effing business. And the fact that they think it's acceptable to do so (as, apparently you do, as well) is just disgusting.
I man they can ask but dont start w the preaching and bible quotes or I’ll poke holes in all of it
I am a lifelong Atheist, and I don't want them to ask me anything. And, if they do, I just nope out and walk away. Life is so much easier when you live by the Pigeon Principle: **Never get into a discussion with a theist. It's like playing chess with a pigeon. It doesn't matter if you checkmate them. They will just knock over the chess pieces, shit on the board, and strut around like they won.**
That was “strange.” A general question is “what do you do?”
>why we don't see things evolve around us Well, this isn't true at all! I'm sure he's heard of different variants of COVID emerging, or new strains of influenza, or that penicillin resistance is a growing concern. This is evolution, and we see it in just a few short years. So multiply that by a couple hundred million years, and interacting with a couple hundred million species over a couple hundred million years of changing geography and climate... Or you could just say that if not seeing evolution with his own eyes makes him think it isn't real, then he should have no problem understanding why you don't believe in his deity.
Also, I found it pretty hilarious that they apparently think that "seeing" evolution is required, but they have no issues with not seeing their own god. Even if they were right and evolution couldn't be seen with your own eyes, why should that convince us to abandon that idea and suddenly accept this other invisible thing they call god? If someone tried to use that argument against me, I would just say "oh, so you don't believe in a god either then?" and watch their brain fry trying to talk themselves out of the hole they just dug.
"Oh, you have to see something to believe it...?" They won't get it.
Maybe he was never taught to use his "science hat". I'm Christian and grew up believing that Creation and Evolution didn't go hand in hand. He could have been in religious schooling up until now. Maybe he needs to deconstruct and learn that science isn't bad or doesn't go against Scripture. I used to have the same argument that he has.
That's a strong argument, and far from the only one, for why religious indoctrination is child abuse and teaching faith over reason is problematic even if was possible for all the rest of the religious pablum to be positive.
> Maybe he needs to deconstruct and learn that science isn't bad or **doesn't go against Scripture**. Talking bushes, snakes, and donkeys are all scientifically verifiable. The ability of all 8.7 million species of animal life surviving an 11 month long global flood on a hand-made wooden ark with only a pair of each species and 8 caretakers is totally possible. Yeah, scripture is totally compatible with science.
Not everything in the Bible is literal. But can you imagine the work and effort it would take to keep all the animals happy and healthy plus the only 8 people who worked the ship! And the ship! The maintence and hopefully a system to divert water would be insane! That would be absolutely wild! And don't get me started on the populate the earth with just them... :/.
> Not everything in the Bible is literal. Which is one of the problems with a book that people base their worldview upon. Any book that is as open to interpretation as the bible is useless for determining one's moral code.
There’s literally been clear evolution in our recent time in Ukraine around Chernobyl. The wild life has evolved to be resistant to cancers and radiation.
"I never saw a duck turn into a crocodile, therefore evolution false". The best explanation is just stupidity.
I never saw a rib turn into a woman. Checkmate, Creationists!
Some animals had offspring that died from the radiation. but radiation causes mutations. Some of those mutations ironically make the organism hardy against radiation! So over the course of many generations, perhaps in the first generation, only one puppy in a litter survived... then that puppy finds another puppy from another litter that survived, and those two dogs mate and have more puppies... this time 3 of the litter of 10 survive... then those 3 go on to have more puppies... then 5 survive out of 10. And on that goes until more and more survive. That's evolution. It happens over generations. What came first, the chicken or the egg? Two non-chickens mated and produced an egg. The creature growing in the egg was chicken-esque. Then subsequent generations of eggs would have produced something more and more like a chicken until there was an egg that produced what we know as a "chicken". A non-chicken didn't just miraculously BECOME a chicken spontaneously.
Good points! Just to add, scientists routinely study how fruit flies can evolve and adapt because they have very short life spans. https://www.the-scientist.com/fruit-flies-evolve-in-time-with-the-seasons-study-69816#:~:text=Fruit%20flies%20are%20already%20known,within%208%20to%209%20generations.
It also happens every year with the flu.
I still think that people who insist that evolution isn’t real should be given the earliest developed vaccines, rather than the newly developed ones. They should of course be given to option to change their stance on the matter.
Absolutely true. ALSO, Cichlids (the fishes) are evolving to form new species. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-extraordinary-evolution-of-cichlid-fishes/
Ooooh, good strategy! Very clever.
>he just interrupted me and changed the topic to a different argument This is called a Gish Gallop. He’s not trying to have an actual debate, and you’re wasting your time trying. He’s never going to listen or accept anything you say. The most effective thing to do is ask them questions about their own beliefs. Or so I’ve heard. I don’t have the patience for that. I’m not a persuader. But others have had decent results.
I fucking hate it when people Gish Gallop. It's painfully obvious to anyone who cares that answering questions is always more difficult and takes longer than *asking* a question.
Whenever someone asks what your beliefs are, it's best that you ask them "Why do you want to know?" Also, prepare them for the possibility that they may not like what they're going to hear and that they have to be mature about it and be prepared. It's such a sensitive topic that I'm surprised people don't actually consider that there are people who won't agree with it. Same with politics. It seems like he was looking for validation. His interrupting you was his attempt at controlling the narrative. IF you converse with him again, don't let him get away with that. He'll bury you in endless word salad, questions and semantics if you do.
I'm sorry you had to deal with that. He's been trained that asking you intrusive questions like this is evangelism - a sacred duty of his faith, which is what makes him feel justified. My solution is to nip it in the bud by simply observing the fact that evangelism is fundamentally about coercing someone to think and behave like you. "I'm sorry, \[friend's name\], but I find evangelism to be morally problematic. I'd appreciate it if you didn't try it with me."
"You have become the stereotype. Anybody can can ask endless interrupting questions, but if you don't even try to understand the answers, what's the point?"
The point is, they've been brainwashed into thinking anyone who doesn't believe in their faith will get set to hell, so it's their duty to "save" people by converting them. If the answer they received isn't one that they can regurgitate a memorized counterargument to, they try a different question in hopes that one would stick. They don't want to understand you, besides the parts that they can weaponize to convert you.
"I'm sorry, but your ignorance of science and logic does not constitute evidence of a god "
Why do you believe that? The Bible. Why do you believe that? It's the word of god. Why do you believe that? And keep going until one of you gets bored.
The Bible is the word of god! How do you know? Because the Bible says it is! Errr, do you know what circular reasoning is?
[удалено]
Wait what does this mean?
He’s an alternative life form. Or he’s saying “how do you know they haven’t” Or any other of myriad thoughts that a cryptic wink might inspire. Keep ‘em guessing. They hate that.
Repeat after me: "Look, I'm not going to discuss this with you, because it's none of your business. Please don't bring it up again." When he inevitably brings it up again, call him out for his bad manners, and tell him that shitty rude disrespecful Christians like him turned you away from God in the first place. Then walk away. Unfortunately, whatever friendship you may have had with this person is already over.
Christians are incapable of minding their own business, and they think everyone owes them something. So don't be too surprised if he turns feral, just be prepared.
If you do see him again, try to push back on him personally "Why do you want to know? Are you having doubts? Do you want to talk to someone and get out of the church?"
I've found it's easier to always answer everything with a question. If they ask a question, try to get clarification. Like what makes you think the universe had a creator? Is the creator all knowing? Is the creator all powerful? Why did the creator make cancer? Why does the creator care if we believe in it? Who created the creator?
Just ask that last question first. The universe must have a creator! Does the creator need a creator? If no, then why does the universe need one? If yes then it’s turtles all the way down.
Well no, it isn't. There are clearly four elephants and one turtle.
The mental gymnastics over that last question was eventually too much for me to handle.
Ask him what race were Adam and Eve and why do people of multiple races exist if evolution is not true?
Ask him what gender God is and why it’s okay to use the pronoun he if god isn’t biologically male?
And if man is made in god's image, and that's why catholics won't let women enter the priesthood, then why does god need a penis? There are no female gods, according to them. Does he need it to pee?
I like that I'm stealing it.
He will never "mind his own business". I used to be that guy when I was a teenager. He cares about you and he thinks he is saving your soul from eternal torment, and he hasn't realized yet that that means he's worshiping an evil entity (who fortunately doesn't exist, but that second realization will come later). The best way to shut him up about it? Tell him you will not speak to him again until he reads Judges chapter eleven. Trust me. He will have an excuse after he reads that, but the seed will have been planted.
Better yet, just tell him to fuck off. There is no point in even engaging with people who have no respect for you.
Just agree with him and tell him your favorite character in bible is Lucifer.
Spoiler alert In Christian mythology, the gawd you pray to is actually the bad guy.
> I'm not trying to tell the guy to f*ck off ...yet
I’d probably tell him that his constant interruptions and changing topics shows he obviously doesn’t want a genuine, honest discussion but just to convert you. That’s not going to happen - and this is an inappropriate place to be doing it anyway.
And it probably goes against some teachings.
The universe must have a creator? How does he know that? We do see things evolve around us. There's literally studies on this. If he keeps interrupting you on those then ass if he is even interested in hearing and learning ornif he is just trying to catch you at some "I don't know" point. Because "I don't know" is not a bad answer. You can use that and when he then goes into how the Bible says God did.. Then ask about how that was verified. Ask which science says that God did those things.
Whenever a christian (or Muslim) asks what you believe, it can be translated to: do you believe the same as me? if not, I am better than you, and you must start believing the same.
I'm a devout Nunya. .... you fill out the rest.
Can do👍... God - the wholey Ninjitsu master, Raikou-sama. Religious items - scrolls, the Murasame and nunchuku. Beliefs - fitness, love, death metal, thunder strike of wholiness. Popes - Gandhi and nun Chuck Norris.
Explain that even if you're wrong, your conclusion is reasonable based on all the awful things God does in the Bible and he has to admit that if he's honest. Don't rely on science or logic, they don't care about that. Focus on conscience and morality.
"I'm happy to discuss this, but know I will have answers to most, if not all of your questions, and you most likely won't like them." Or: "I'd rather we didn't talk about this, as it has never gone well in the past."
All you have to say is you’re not comfortable talking to him any longer. If he has the nerve to ask why just look at him like he’s nuts and say he’s unaccepting of other’s beliefs.
My beliefs are deeply personal. I don’t care to debate anyone. I say nothing!
Why do we feel the need to slink back away from these people? They have their beliefs. We have ours. Why can't we stand on that one true item while talking to theists?
I’m perfectly happy to tell them to “go fist your mother” if they refuse to show reciprocate respect. The shock usually stops ‘em dead and their brain reboots. There are plenty of respectful religious people, unfortunately they are not the loud ones.
Fruit flies in a laboratory is classic evolution
I live in a red state so my usual answer is it's not a good fit for me and trying to find the right path to go. Some think I'm looking for a different church or another Christian denomination like Catholic, protestant etc. I just go my merry way. I have gotten the red eye from my cousin who is a pastor.
> I'm not trying to tell the guy to f*ck off, just politely ask him to mind his own business. Try "I am happy with my beliefs and I believe I have done my due diligence in ensuring that they are rational. I appreciate that you have different beliefs, and I'm going to assume you've done your due diligence for them. That being the case, however, means I have very little interest in discussing those beliefs. So I would like you to decide whether you're going to pester me and thus make it so we're not friends any more, or deal with those differences in a mature way and let it be. I would prefer you pick the second option, but I am prepared for the first."
How dull and annoying for you when you’re trying to raise those endorphins and get some space. You’re very patient, I would tell him to do one.
If he is so sure, call the atheist experience and convert those first.
"Your god is dead. And no one cares."
Don't talk religion,politics or money with a 'gym friend'. I.e. MYOB
Ask him why god created us so we could choke to death. We eat, drink, and breathe through the same tube. That’s an obvious design flaw. If we were created by an omniscient and omnipotent being, then it means god deliberately created us so we could choke to death. Why would this be important?
I have a coworker who is very devout. Not a rabid republican christian, but a very kind man. He and I were chatting and he tossed out the usual, "Only Jesus was perfect". I reminded him that I wasn't a believer and he immediately went into the "Watchmaker" argument. I told him that this discussion is not going to happen for two reasons. 1) I've heard your argument many times and it only works in hypothetical church discussion. 2) My way to discuss this could be considered hurtful or offensive to you, and I consider you to be a friend. That shut down the proselytizing and the subject was changed.
Well some people do need indeed to be hit with a 'fuck off' cuz they can't take the fuckin hint
The reason why people are recommending you to tell him to fuck off is precisely because politeness doesn't work with his type and also he's being really rude towards you right now.
Sounds like he's sizing you up for some proselytizing...stand firm, man!
I'd let him know first thing tomorrow he made me uncomfortable with the discussion and if he wants to continue the discussion will be two-sided. I'd also let him know he probably won't like some of my answers and you'd hate for it to affect our friendship so you'd rather not discuss it. At that point it's up to him.
Maybe something like: *I don’t believe in *any* messengers or gods for the same reasons you don’t believe in John Smith, Muhammad, Zeus or Vishnu.* *Imagine if you came here to workout, but a devotee decided you need to hear about Hare Krishna.* *I hope we can respect each other’s boundaries and still be friends, but I will totally understand if you decide that isn’t an option because of my atheism.*
This is your chance to convert him. Table the turns
"You see zenuu....."
Explain to him that you are not superstitious and don't believe in fairy tales.
"Oh! You're right! I'm on your side of the argument now." Say it, make him believe it, be done with it. Basically tell him you don't care enough to even discuss it.
I'd honestly just flip the script on him and make him back up his beliefs. Also, dont let him switch topics, call him out on it and when he gets uncomfortable tell him that thats exactly what he did to you last time. If he cant see the fault in this then he's probably not the kind of person I'd associate with.
You have your views which are based on faith and I respect that, I have my views based on research and science. If you can't respect that then please let's respect that we have different views, but I don't want to discuss this with you to validate your faith, as you don't want to listen to what I have to say.
I had this happen to me. Kept asking to buy my soul for a little money as a way to prove that I believe my soul is real. And his views on abortion!!! He had been brainwashed at some religious school and had no idea how abused he had been.
lol. If someone asked to buy my soul, I'd take the money. We just need to negotiate price.
There’s always the option of just pretending you totally agree with them and trying to prove them right intentionally. When you can’t, they’ll have to try to explain why you can’t.
I suggest you brush up on all the arguments he's going to make and ask him to have a civilized conversation where you are not interrupted. This in itself is going to bother him so much, that he wouldn't ask you again. Bonus points will come to you if you remind him not to interrupt when he does. Most of the time, the christian knows that whatever argument they have, you'll be able to refute that with great ease. This creates a cognitive dissonance for them. Like on one side they find your responses logical enough to make them think about abandoning religion, but on the other side abandoning religion is sinful to them and therefore they wouldn't do it. Forcing them to sit through the cognitive dissonance will actively give them psychic damage. And upon receiving this psychic damage, they'll learn either to accept your position as an atheist or leave you alone and not bring this topic up again. Frankly if you know any arguments they will be making for any topic that they think that by debating it with you they can bring you into their cause, and present a rebuttal for it, you would be successfully giving them psychic damage from the cognitive dissonance. This method works best for any religious and political debates. Like you can see their braincells committing suicide because of your logical reasoning.
Any time people try this on me, I just tell them I don't discuss politics or religion. At my age I've made up my mind, nothing they say is going to change it.
It's weird how Christians are so obsessed with evolution. They could just wave over it and say "God created evolution" and move on.
Dunno if someone already told you this, but I couldn't find someone saying it. First like many suggested, say "I don't want to talk about it anymore, please be respectful of that." If he doesn't, then start answering everything, and I mean literally everything with a "I don't know", you could add, "why don't you find out and tell me about it" if you'll like, but that last bit can be counter productive. Saying simply I don't know to everything will get him drained, because his brains will run out of things to say really quickly, and eventually he is going to come with a version of "it's I don't know all you can say?" and guess what... Yup, it is not that polite, but he isn't being polite with you either, next day see if he has seen the light, or not, if he doesn't, repeat until he understands you're not going to engage seriously.
Lots of potential solutions to difficult to grasp concepts. The Christian “solution” is only one, and it’s arbitrary and based on pre bronze age mythology. I’m personally starting to think that Mary was knocked by a dude from a marauding group from Northern Europe- England or Belgium perhaps . Euro Jesus was concerned the old fashioned way. Lots of theories.
If you want to continue talking with him but just not about that ask him to change the topic tell him you would rather not discuss this topic and if he can't respect that then you might have to just not talk to him at all.
Always wanted to get into HEMA. I'm a history dork, but I'm a muay thai guy. It pains me to know these fools are ruining shit you (we) love. Just do what I do. Pretend to be a pagan, and say your gods are the gods of war, and their singular god is the god of peace and love. I work in construction and had to tell someone if they continued to try to talk to me about religion we were going to have a legit problem. Sometimes you have to be direct. It's probably not the best option, but it's worked for me. 🤷
Speaking from experience, I can assure you that this is an isolated incident. We try to keep our community as inclusive as possible so extremists usually leave in anger or are kicked out early on. If you still wanna give it a go, check out r/wma and use the HEMA Alliance club finder to see if there are any clubs you can join.
Right on, that's what's up. I do plan on checking into that soon hopefully, so Thanks for the link. I do have to wait for my little ones to get a bit older, so I can have the time and money to fully dedicate to it.
My go to Is to ask them why it’s so important that I believe in their god? I sometimes get a comeback of saving my soul. But I just remind them that’s not their job. It’s always been a good exit line
Why we don’t see things evolve around us? Where tf was he in 2020?
You have to watch out for christians in HEMA clubs, they tend to be a litte deus vult, if you know what i mean. I think thats part of what attracts them to it.
Yes, but the HEMA community in general has been able to keep them at bay. We try to have an inclusive space for minorities so religious nutjobs are either kicked out, leave in anger, or keep their beliefs to themselves.
Gish gallopers are so exhausting
My favorite tactic with these people is to present them with the Epicurean Paradox and as soon as they say evil exists because mankind has free will, I hit them with Isaiah 45:7 They shut the fuck up pretty quick when they realize you know this stuff better than they do.
"This is my zen place. I come here to free myself from stress and anxiety. The conversation you're asking me to have is an argument that results in the opposite. Let's please talk about something else."
His goal is to convert you. He's not your friend
Oh, my problem would be that I would answer all his questions, to the point where he gets angry, but it would still be my fault. My go to is "I'm OK with not knowing. I have absolutely NO desire to make up magical stories to explain things I don't know. We are always learning more. Why do you think the bible says not to eat pork? I can tell you what I think. I think 3000 years ago, people didn't know about parasites and germs and stuff, and if they didn't cook certain foods properly they would get sick. So, old tribal leaders wanted to keep their people safe, keep them from doing that, so they made up a story "you will be smited by god if you do that" to get people to stop doing things that were mysteriously dangerous or that they simply didn't approve of (like I bet it was a straight man that came up with "Look, gay sex is bad, god will send you to hell", maybe had someone hit on him and it made him uncomfortable... but he was in charge, and when he says "gay sex is bad, god will damn you to hell" people believe it.) That's how I think all the stuff in the bible came to be. Old men trying to teach literal children who didn't even know what "gravity" is and what "germs" are how to live, putting not just a "that's not a good idea" spin on it, but actual "YOU'LL SUFFER FOR ALL ETERNITY IF YOU DO THAT!" spin on it. I've seen absolutely nothing that contradicts that. If you think long and hard about it, you'll agree with me... so best you not do that.
Just tell people you choose to not discuss religion and politics in public .
I need to join a gym with a pool, but only the ymca is nearby and has one. I don’t want to give christians money. What now
Personally, I would refuse to engage in that conversation, and let him feel like he "won." And then, I would pointedly insert my Airpods, and proceed to ignore him. I owe him *nothing*, least of all an explanation of what I believe, or not believe.
Tell him you've "evolved" into a smart person (not saying your not😅) and will no longer be speaking with him....!😉
I’d draw a parallel with someone finding out you’re vegetarian. They suddenly think they have to debate you & convince you of the errors of your ways, when in fact it’s a deeply-held moral position that’s been given a lot of thought. People usually shut up eventually.
Switch the conversation to Pokemon.
Tell him that you don't care about people's beliefs because they are strictly personal, like their 'body count' etc. If he insists, tell him that then you're entitled to violate his privacy too and you're going to ask him about his sexual fantasies.
Tell him my parents taught me to never discuss politics, religion or sex . If you are ok with that , then we will start talking about sex.
You’re very kind. Draw your lines, but you may have to continue to cut him off as soon as he starts. I have many family members that are devout. They won’t stop. It’s a goal and a command to bring more people in to that religion (witnessing). They believe they get kudos from their god. That’s why they hit the streets every Thursday. They also believe when they die their god is going to give them crowns for this, but they’re s’posed to give them back I understand. (I didn’t make the rules). I think you may have to push back as hard as they push.
It sounds like the problem is not that you lack responses but that he is not listening and not letting you speak. There is not an easy solution for this. I usually just broken record “May I speak!l until it sinks in. And give me silence, anytime they interrupt again. I go back into “May I speak?” broken record mode again. If you do this give them a chance to speak after you have made one or two points or have simply said “I don’t think you are sincere in your questions and I don’t choose to have this conversation with you until you are ready to be honest with yourself and me.”
Try asking him not to continue this discussion but if, after that, he insists on continuing, you do need to make a decision as to how much of his disrespect you are willing to accept. That is what his banging on about his religion, and not allowing you to speak, is: disrespect. Good luck.
Why are they at a gym? Arent they happy with the body god gave them? They are spitting in the face of god.
Just tell him that you expected better of him since you didn't interrogate his beliefs in a magical skydaddy.
It takes two to have a conversation. You don't have to agree to an interrogation. And him interrupting you is disrespectful. Tell him to treat your views with respect and you'll do the same for him. If he gets arsy, walk away.
Even if you counter every argument 100% successfully, he will resort back to 'faith' which you can't challenge because it's belief for sake of belief despite all evidence to the contrary. Just don't have these conversations, it's not worth it.
>He started asking me stuff like why the universe must have a creator That's not really a question he'd ask. If he's asking questions, then it's polite (but not mandatory) to satisfy his curiosity. If he's just trying to convert you, then you shouldn't pretend that his efforts are welcome. "Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig." (Heinlein)
'Despite what you've been taught, your purpose in life is not to convert me or anyone else you meet into your club. I wanted to tell you about Noam Chomsky(insert author/musician/subject)'. Begin rattling off trivia about 'Noam Chomsky' every time religion is slid into your conversation. It may take a few conversations but eventually he will dread hearing about Chomsky enough, he'll avoid the topic.
I respect you as a person. I don't question you about your faith, please don't question me about mine.
>Every time he presented an argument I tried to refute him, but when he realized I actually had a response he just interrupted me and changed the topic to a different argument. This went on for about 10 minutes >I'm not trying to tell the guy to f*ck off Why not? He clearly has no concept of boundaries.
"I do not discuss my religious beliefs. If you cannot respect that, there is nothing more we have to say to each other."
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Dude.You made a HUGE mistake engaging in any way with a theist. Your response to his questions should have been: "My beliefs are private, and I do not discuss them with anyone." If he tries again, you're going to have to disengage and use the: "I do not wish to discuss this with you any further. As an Atheist, I find your questions to be invasive and irritating. " Good luck with that, though. They can't help themselves, and he won't stop until you are forced to get in his face.
I'm kind of petty when it comes to this particular kind of interaction but I'd just start talking to him like he's a 4 year old. Let him say his argument and only respond with "good job buddy!" Or anything of the sort. Basically I'd pretend he's a child telling me about something he learnt in school that day.
That doesn't sound very friendly. I'd change the subject to anything else and I'd state, clearly, I don't want to have religious conversation with them. Then I'd start avoiding them until I found a new gym. Gross.
Pretty much the first question anyone asks me if I'm in a new area is "So what church do you go to?"
Don’t try to answer his questions. Just ask questions back asking him to prove his point of view. Send him down the rabbit hole and he will get frustrated and give up.
If he starts up again, tell him you are tired of answering his wrongful beliefs about what you believe, especially when he switches subject on being countered instead of examining his views. He won't be able to change his ways to accommodate your simple request and will probably shut up. Or he'll double down, and you'll need to use the f\* off option.
Devout Christian doing HEMA huh? Is "Deus Vult" in his vocabulary?
He's a pretty chill guy in training and as a partner and instructor he's actually pretty cool.
Ask to speak with them about their car’s extended warranty.
I would love to be interrogated. Id probably present them viewpoints they've never considered before. I be street epistemologying all over that conversation
Ask him if the reason it’s so important to him is that his own ‘faith’ is shallow and way too easily threatened. People with real deep faith don’t need to argue it with others. BTW; I’m a hard atheist but I know one genuine believer. He’s a cool guy, kind, doesn’t need to preach. Just always acts out of love. It’s a little weird but I’d trust him with my life.
"Well evolution takes millions of years with slight variations over generations. I can give you a list of books to read if you want to learn more on the subject.
If he has more questions give him a Dawkins book
Simple - Mind You Own business, if you wish for us to be friends. I will add this - most of them know very little about putting the teachings of Jesus (which are non denominational) into action. So you could ask another question: "Do you believe in Salvation by faith or by works?" This is a question Christians rarely, if ever, ask themselves, but a question that is often pondered in seminary. Then you remind him that almost all of Jesus' teachings are based upon what you do - works. Then you turn it around and ask him what he thinks of this. What does he think about immigrants? What does he do to help the less fortunate? No, not by tithing, but what does he do himself? Then ask him what he thinks of Matthew 25: 31- 46 and the beatitudes? Shouldn't those be paramount over the Ten Commandments, since those are Jesus' own words? If you go this route, by now, he is either completely flustered, he is angry at you for some weird reason, or you have introduced introspection (which, again, is a basic principle of Jesus' teachings). Then you close the discussion by saying, "I do not declare what I believe. I prefer to let my works talk for me".
Convert him
Or, if you can stand it ask him to slow his roll just a little. One topic a day. This also means he can't ask an unrelated question and switch topics when you have an answer. So one day is about an uncaused cause, and how adding a complex actor, a Creator, doesn't simplify the question of *what came out of nothing?*. It in fact forces that impossible sounding answer. No switching to evolution because all that happened either long long before, or some days before. Either way **before** and unrelated. If he wants another day, where you look a photosensitive cells that aren't eyes, or the three kinds of mammals that show an evolutionary path.
Rather than answer his questions, turn them around on him and have HIM defend himself. If god is all merciful, then why would he condemn someone who hasn't visited the sick in prison to 'eternal punishment' (Matthew 25)? According to him man is too complex to have evolved and therefore needs a creator. It follows that god is certainly more complex than man therefore, according to his own argument, god must need a creator. Who created god? > but when he realized I actually had a response he just interrupted me and changed the topic to a different argument. By going on the offensive and asking questions, you can avoid falling into that trap. If he doesn't answer your questions, just interrupt HIM and keep on demanding an answer.
Have you simply said " I do not want to talk about religion."
Time for a new gym buddy.
Man they go right to recruitment mode…Whats funny is that they dont want you going straight to questioning their beliefs and trying to convince them of the contrary. I enjoy shutting them down w “look Im a lifelong athiest and I’m not interested in debating religion with you. Have the same respect that you expect”
We do see things evolve around us. Drug resistant bacteria, for example
Just use the absolute go to and ask him if he believes in any of the other parade of gods in all of history that came well before his infant 2000 year old god.
Folks need to respect athiests beliefs period
Turn the tables on him. Find out if he's gay or straight, then ask him highly personal questions about his sex life and check if he has any kinky thoughts. be as intrusive as possible. Go into as much detail as possible. Then, when he protests, you can tell him why, and to shut the fuck up!
Say I don't interrogate you about your beliefs please don't interrogate me about mine. I would be prepared for him to cut contact because most people like that are very close minded
The fact that he's asking questions provides a path to deconversion for him. Work on that!
It just bemuses me this kind of thing. Here in Sweden that would be almost unheard of. I would imagine a majority here are atheist or agnostic. Just ask him why he thinks \*his\* particular god, of all the thousands that have been invented so far, is the right one? Ask him if he believes in Zeus, or Odin, or Vishnu, or Ra. And if not, why not...They are just as believable.
When a religious person starts asking me those questions in a non-hostile way, I consider it a good opportunity to enlighten them. Probably zero odds of actually convincing them though. I would not normally be the initiator of discussions like that, unless they were about to do or said something that seems nonsensical. I don't remember the start of it but I had a number of conversations with a coworker after finding out they didn't believe in things like radio carbon dating, sediment layer analysis, etc science backed concepts that provided evidence of the world being more than a few thousand years old. I had trouble understanding how a guy who worked in IT and was a mechanic had more faith in his religion than in the technology he used every day to earn his living... Definitely lots of religious people in science and technology fields though. I really don't understand how they compartmentalize their critical thinking...
Yeah, they get super upset when you tell them you're going to a party way cooler than heaven.
Politely tell him you don’t want to talk about it anymore. If he continues, start poking holes in his beliefs. Do that enough and he’ll be quiet.
If faith was truly faithful, to be believed without question, people wouldn't need to be convinced. The lack of faith shown by those proselytizing profusely or forcibly is very telling.
For so many of those theists types saying anything other than agreeing with them is telling them to fuck off in their minds. I think because they know deep down that it’s not true. So finding like minds helps tamp down logic and reason and they don’t have to be afraid of the dark now because someone is there to hold their hand.
‘Sure, sounds good. But if you could let me finish my responses instead of interrupting me to make a different point I would really appreciate the polite consideration.’
Ask him who created god
Dude, that guy was overstepping from the start. What a nutjob
I always say that’s personal.
That's not a friend, it's an acquaintance. He is evangelizing. Just tell him you're not interested and practice more avoidance. Sometimes acquaintances become friendships, sometimes they don't. Such is life.
I would just tell him fuck your fairytales. Tell him the truth Religion is the root of all evil.
Monosyllabic answers work well. Also, "I'm just here to work out, dude, not answer the questions of the universe."
I'm always amused by the disingenuousness of the religious argument. They pretend to argue an abstract, like that the universe needs a creator, but the only possible Creator is the one invented by Bronze Age nomads.
Call him what he is, an annoying, tiresome fuckwit, and move on with your life. No need being polite to someone like this. He's not polite to you.
You’re an atheist. You lack belief. You don’t have to justify your beliefs because you have none. People confuse atheism with anti-theism. Beyond that, “I’m not interested in your beliefs” can suffice.
Just answer "none of your business" next time and be done with it.
I understand 😂 I personally would debate the guy, but that's just a me thing. Either way I hope he respects your boundaries. Keep us all posted 🤙
You should be interrogating them. They're the ones with ridiculous beliefs.
Tell him to call the Atheist Experience, or The Line.
I would just say, look, we don’t agree and we’re not going to change each other’s minds, so let’s change the subject. If he refuses, just keep him at arm’s length or completely avoid from now on. Badgering someone is not acceptable.
Boundaries. Set them and defend them. “I don’t want to talk about religion anymore.” If he pushes, instate stronger and stronger consequences, up to going no-contact or ending the friendship. If he can’t respect boundaries, he’s not worth having as a friend.
If you don't want to be rude, just say "I don't want to discuss this" and remain silent. Let him chatter on, ask questions, but just say nothing. It will freak him out.
BIFF: brief informative firm friendly. “That topic is closed for discussion. Have a great workout.”
“You know, my religion or lack there of is my business. If I need an opinion, I’ll ask.” Seems like a suitable answer.
Knowing someone is a devout Christian I would never use the term friend. An acquaintance would be a better description. Devout means they have convinced themselves that they cannot be bothered by any ideal that's not theirs. Good luck with getting these numbnuts out of your life. These people latch on to anyone stupid enough to engage them. They are the original trolls. They were trolling people before the internet existed.
You say you will try to establish some boundaries to maintain the relationship. Excellent! A good and kind thing to do. Just be prepared to have him ignore them and go trampling around like an enraged elephant.
"You think atheists haven't considered all these very common questions? Why don't you google it?" And hope he does a bit of googling (although religious organizations have so much money, they can afford premium SEO.)
if you are open to a conversation about faith with him, i’d look into street epistemology, and have a conversation with him that follows that format. otherwise, i would avoid arguing about ontological arguments in general. it’s usually very unproductive.
Why I usually say I’m buddhist but not religious. Like no thanks I don’t have time for their bullshit.
This happens because we enable intrusive religious people to think they have the right to an explanation. The more people that tell them to fuck off, they’ll learn.
In a situation where I’m a regular and don’t want to deal with repeated conversion attempts, I just say “I prefer not to discuss religion in public,” (or at work, while I’m eating, while I’m working out: whatever applies). And I stick to my guns. I’d do that even if I did follow a particular religion, but it is nice to have the option to simply not give an attempted proselytizer anything that might make them more determined.
Many take it personally if we don't believe what they believe. It's even deeper with theists because it causes them to question their own beliefs. There is nothing wrong with saying "we see things differently and I prefer not to discuss it beyond that.".
You don't owe an explanation to anyone. If he presses you again just ask him if he is interested in becoming an atheist. If he says "no" then tell him it is probably best not to ask atheists questions about atheism then because that is really the only reason anyone should ask.
I am religious, but never would I ask someone's religion. That is a personal choice, and you don't bully someone due to their faith. if u choose not to believe in God or Satan, that is your choice. If you ever choose to get more answers, you xan always ask someone you trust !!