> Have you ever convinced somebody out of a religion?
I have had 2 people pop up out of nowhere and thank me clarity. I suppose have removed doubt.
But I have never convinced somebody I was debating with to stop. The denialism always kicked in on their behalf and the debate is just over at that point.
Just once by accident. Online discussion. Once I explained evolution to this guy, he got it and accepted it. Since his ultra-stupid church had told him it was a lie, once he accepted the Theory of Evolution he concluded that everything they had told him was a lie. This was not my objective.
I hope I can do the same with my girlfriend, not that her faith is anything harmful (she follows quite a relaxed branch of Christianity that doesn't hate gays, they don't wear suits to Church, etc) but I feel it's cruel that she's been led to believe all this bullshit about sky wizard and his murderous tendencies (that parts overlooked though).
I generally don’t challenge someone’s belief. If it brings them peace and happiness then thats great. I’m not going to take that away. My one exception if the person is judgy. I have a transgender son and I will not allow religious prejudice. I have a degree in theology and have spent the last 30 years looking at ancient history and inconsistencies in the Bible so am pretty secure in my arguments
( I recommend data over dogma podcast)
> Have you ever encouraged somebody out of their religion and it actually ended up working?
It rarely works that way, and you should set your expectations accordingly. For most people what we can do is get them to challenge their beliefs. If we do it well and they are left with questions then at some point (the next day, a week later, a month later) they may decide to pull on that thread. And we know that religion can't sustain much thread pulling without coming apart.
> but I have caused people to start seriously questioning their religions which will maybe result in them leaving the religion down the road.
Pretty much exactly this.
I've never convinced anyone to leave their religion, but I have provided a kind of intellectual off-ramp for people who were questioning their beliefs. They convinced themselves to leave, I just provided an opportunity to do so.
Yes, actually. Or at least, I had a hand in it.
Back in ye olden days of the internet when social interaction was on niche forums rather than catch-all social networks, I was a regular on a forum that had a section specifically for politics, philosophy, and religion. I fucking LOVED that forum, and spent way too much time there. I was (a left-leaning atheist, and one of my most frequent opponents was a devout christian and a young earth biblical literalist; we debated constantly about almost everything (though I think retained some level of respect for each other, in a way that would be unlikely to happen nowadays) for quite awhile.
Years later, we caught up on facebook and later hung out in person at a con -- and we pretty much hit it off as best of friends. They mentioned to me that they were no longer Christian, and that discussions with me did a lot to push them in that direction.
I was talking to a devout Southern Baptist who was trying to tell me that I was going to hell. I said hell isn’t real, it’s not even consistent dogma within the Bible, that promising heaven “in God’s sight” wasn’t influential to everyone so a negative reinforcement was added. I said “don’t take my word, look it up”. She did and it shook her whole world up. I said it’s up to you if you want to ignore that and accept the rest of the story but once you know, it’s hard not to know anymore.
I fantasize about doing this lol. I think the best you can do is lead by example and casually ask open ended questions which force them to think about it. Showing curiosity generally helps
I don't like the term conversion.
I use rationality, and it is not what I say but the ideas people adopt.
My wife jokes about the books I give away. I just encourage people to read so they can make up their own minds. Unlike religion, I don't sell anything, and the only benefit is more rational thought.
I would not call it convincing someone, more introducing questions.
I've never tried to convince anyone of anything. I think that's a lot of hard work for little result. Instead, I inform. I tell Christians things about their own faith - things they never knew cos no one ever told them - that simply made them see a slightly different framing of where their faith came from and why. I prefer a slowly burning fuse effect in their heads - as one or two small details eats away at the whole fairy tale - to blowing it all up at once (mostly because the latter is impossible).
I rarely debate but one time on IG, I discussed with someone on the prospects of a universe with a beginning or being eternal. His idea was basically the cosmological argument and I replied that the most honest answer is idk but in my opinion, if God can be exempted from causality, why can't the universe itself? It made him think a lot about it and let me know the next day. I left it at there to make him think about it himself.
The closest I've come to that is when the Newdow case was in the news over 20 years ago ( the Under God in the Pledge of Allegiance controversy). One of my coworkers was puzzled how anybody could object to that phrase. I pointed out that it excluded non-believing Americans from this supposedly universal pledge. He was silent for a second and then said " I never thought of it that way." Obviously, that didn't convince him out of his religion, but at least he rethought some of the dogma.
I offer this to ponder: it's the exact same when people from the USA call themselves "Americans".
Sooo... You're leaving out all of the other countries from North America AND South America? When someone calls themselves an "American", I know that the propaganda has run deep.
No but I knew someone who was a moonie in the 1970s —that cult legitimately brainwashed it’s members, no exaggeration. Anyone since we were friends I figured out that she was “immune” to anything I said but I realized that she had to try to convert anyone else. So I went to the prayer club president (I was till a Christian at this point) and asked him to talk with her. I explained to him that she would try to convert him, I told him what arguments she would use. I knew all of this because when they first came to town I went with her to one of their “dinners” in the church and a couple of their Bible studies. The difference is that afterwards I went to the library got the concordances and research med the issues from a Biblical view where she just listened and accepted what they said. Anyway that worked , since she was trying to convert him, he was able to get her to listen and reason her out of it.
TLDR: if you want to convince someone out of a cult or false belief , you can’t be family or a close friend. You have to get someone they know and will try to convert. Obviously that person has to be someone solid who won’t get sucked in.
I think many people live in communities where declaring yourself to be an Atheist is seen as a (dare I say) brave move. I'm thinking of the South in particular. This in itself could cause some to question their own beliefs.
No, but I've tried to find information about the process of cult deprogramming because I genuinely think that there are plenty of doubters and unbelievers who still go to religious services for the community side of things who would be shunned or face other nasty consequences if their lack of faith were discovered.
Precisely once, and I'm not sure I actually managed it.
I met two Mormons, one black, one white, and I told the first gentleman to look in to the history of racism in his church.
The next time I saw only the white Mormon and a new white dude.
Yes, but not intentionally. A very close friend of mine told me she began doubting her xtian faith after meeting me. At the time, I was homeless because my very xtian parents had found out I was gay and tossed me into the streets as a teen.
Meeting me and learning my story caused her to question her Southern Baptist faith because she couldn’t understand how xtians could be so cruel. This led her to start reading the Bible closely, and eventually her faith collapsed.
Decades later she developed cancer and barely survived. Her family used her illness to try to make her come back to Jesus so she’d go to heaven. This woman was literally facing her own death, and they took it as an opportunity to frighten her into accepting their god.
She never wavered. She told me that the experience of facing her own imminent death only served to solidify her atheism.
Fortunately, she survived. She’s one of my dearest friends, and I admire her so much.
I didn’t on purpose, friend was Mormon I didn’t know anything about it, but after talking about a church I grew up in they decided they liked normal Christianity better. I’m not religious but so far vanilla Christian is better than the ones who ride the bikes
I'm not certain I fully convinced someone, but I did have a friend have a pretty emotional conversation with me regarding the things we've discussed for months and how it had made him come to an epiphany. It was devastating, though, because he ended up moving back to his hometown, and he admitted that I had put him in mental and emotional distress. He said it was just best not to continue our friendship, but he was happy I had helped him gain some clarity regarding his faith. I often ask people if they believe in a higher power just because I'm curious as to why. I don't share details about my views anymore unless people press me.
Not trying to deconvert anybody, but if it happens, it would be awesome. Our religious friends/relatives are aware we don't practice or believe, and I hope it just enables them to feel comfortable should they ever question things for themselves.
If anybody DID admit to doubts, or wanting to leave religion, I'd be more inclined to warn them about the consequences than celebrating a "win."
Thank you for your question! As long as an entity is not causing harm to themselves, the environment, or others, I tend to let all entities settle into a belief system that feels most comfortable for them <3
Not directly, no.
I was always skeptical and cynical when it came to religion. My wife went from being non-religious to a more outspoken atheist through me. My step-daughter is also atheist, and has avoided any kind of indoctrination for her kids (my grandchildren). The other side of the the family (her husband's parents) are a bit more religious, but have recognized that none of their kids is terribly interested in religion.
My brother and my sister both have told me that it was my "angry atheist" rants as a kid that made them reconsider their religion and finally accept that it's false. I've debated my parents frequently and I know they Know that christianity is bullshit because they eventually just end up asking me to stop halfway through after I make a good point. They don't want to accept that they've been believing a lie for over 40-50 years of their lives and want to just keep pretending, and my pesky facts keep getting in the way of that.
A few people in my orbit have softened their stance on religion, that is they were pretty hardcore when I met them but now they are more casual believers or have transitioned to a more liberal/progressive version of Christianity.
That wasn't anything I did specifically but I was the first open atheist they knew, and I generally try to be a kind and empathetic community member, and they've independently asked me a lot of questions over the years that I've answered honestly.
Specifically they are other parents of kids in my son's cohort and I'm active with the school, and we've been interacting with each other in that capacity and as neighbours for ten years.
One time one of their boys wanted to invite my son to a carnival being put on by their church and his mom took great pains to assure me that it's not a religious event, it's just in the church parking lot. I never told her but I really appreciated her consideration for our family in clarifying that, even thought I wasn't worried.
I don’t actively try to but I frequently ask my religious family questions about god and christianity just to challenge them and provide a new perspective. most of the time these conversations turn argumentative because they start getting delusional and hypocritical and not giving straight answers to very valid questions. sometimes i feel like i come close to at least convincing them to question their religion when they start stuttering and saying “i don’t know” and “i can’t explain that” ☠️
> Have you ever convinced somebody out of a religion? I have had 2 people pop up out of nowhere and thank me clarity. I suppose have removed doubt. But I have never convinced somebody I was debating with to stop. The denialism always kicked in on their behalf and the debate is just over at that point.
Just once by accident. Online discussion. Once I explained evolution to this guy, he got it and accepted it. Since his ultra-stupid church had told him it was a lie, once he accepted the Theory of Evolution he concluded that everything they had told him was a lie. This was not my objective.
My wife, my best friend and his wife
I didn't do it all by myself, but I'd like to think I played at least a part of it; My wife. ❤
I hope I can do the same with my girlfriend, not that her faith is anything harmful (she follows quite a relaxed branch of Christianity that doesn't hate gays, they don't wear suits to Church, etc) but I feel it's cruel that she's been led to believe all this bullshit about sky wizard and his murderous tendencies (that parts overlooked though).
I generally don’t challenge someone’s belief. If it brings them peace and happiness then thats great. I’m not going to take that away. My one exception if the person is judgy. I have a transgender son and I will not allow religious prejudice. I have a degree in theology and have spent the last 30 years looking at ancient history and inconsistencies in the Bible so am pretty secure in my arguments ( I recommend data over dogma podcast)
You sound like an amazing father, your transgender son is lucky to have you!
No. Made some question theirs.
> Have you ever encouraged somebody out of their religion and it actually ended up working? It rarely works that way, and you should set your expectations accordingly. For most people what we can do is get them to challenge their beliefs. If we do it well and they are left with questions then at some point (the next day, a week later, a month later) they may decide to pull on that thread. And we know that religion can't sustain much thread pulling without coming apart. > but I have caused people to start seriously questioning their religions which will maybe result in them leaving the religion down the road. Pretty much exactly this.
I've never convinced anyone to leave their religion, but I have provided a kind of intellectual off-ramp for people who were questioning their beliefs. They convinced themselves to leave, I just provided an opportunity to do so.
Yes, actually. Or at least, I had a hand in it. Back in ye olden days of the internet when social interaction was on niche forums rather than catch-all social networks, I was a regular on a forum that had a section specifically for politics, philosophy, and religion. I fucking LOVED that forum, and spent way too much time there. I was (a left-leaning atheist, and one of my most frequent opponents was a devout christian and a young earth biblical literalist; we debated constantly about almost everything (though I think retained some level of respect for each other, in a way that would be unlikely to happen nowadays) for quite awhile. Years later, we caught up on facebook and later hung out in person at a con -- and we pretty much hit it off as best of friends. They mentioned to me that they were no longer Christian, and that discussions with me did a lot to push them in that direction.
It rarely works like that. I'm content to give people a couple of things they might think about long after our conversation.
I was talking to a devout Southern Baptist who was trying to tell me that I was going to hell. I said hell isn’t real, it’s not even consistent dogma within the Bible, that promising heaven “in God’s sight” wasn’t influential to everyone so a negative reinforcement was added. I said “don’t take my word, look it up”. She did and it shook her whole world up. I said it’s up to you if you want to ignore that and accept the rest of the story but once you know, it’s hard not to know anymore.
I fantasize about doing this lol. I think the best you can do is lead by example and casually ask open ended questions which force them to think about it. Showing curiosity generally helps
I don't like the term conversion. I use rationality, and it is not what I say but the ideas people adopt. My wife jokes about the books I give away. I just encourage people to read so they can make up their own minds. Unlike religion, I don't sell anything, and the only benefit is more rational thought. I would not call it convincing someone, more introducing questions.
Not really... there was only one friend that was halfway out of Islam and I guess our conversations did help him, but he did most of the work himself.
I've never tried to convince anyone of anything. I think that's a lot of hard work for little result. Instead, I inform. I tell Christians things about their own faith - things they never knew cos no one ever told them - that simply made them see a slightly different framing of where their faith came from and why. I prefer a slowly burning fuse effect in their heads - as one or two small details eats away at the whole fairy tale - to blowing it all up at once (mostly because the latter is impossible).
I rarely debate but one time on IG, I discussed with someone on the prospects of a universe with a beginning or being eternal. His idea was basically the cosmological argument and I replied that the most honest answer is idk but in my opinion, if God can be exempted from causality, why can't the universe itself? It made him think a lot about it and let me know the next day. I left it at there to make him think about it himself.
The closest I've come to that is when the Newdow case was in the news over 20 years ago ( the Under God in the Pledge of Allegiance controversy). One of my coworkers was puzzled how anybody could object to that phrase. I pointed out that it excluded non-believing Americans from this supposedly universal pledge. He was silent for a second and then said " I never thought of it that way." Obviously, that didn't convince him out of his religion, but at least he rethought some of the dogma.
I offer this to ponder: it's the exact same when people from the USA call themselves "Americans". Sooo... You're leaving out all of the other countries from North America AND South America? When someone calls themselves an "American", I know that the propaganda has run deep.
No but I knew someone who was a moonie in the 1970s —that cult legitimately brainwashed it’s members, no exaggeration. Anyone since we were friends I figured out that she was “immune” to anything I said but I realized that she had to try to convert anyone else. So I went to the prayer club president (I was till a Christian at this point) and asked him to talk with her. I explained to him that she would try to convert him, I told him what arguments she would use. I knew all of this because when they first came to town I went with her to one of their “dinners” in the church and a couple of their Bible studies. The difference is that afterwards I went to the library got the concordances and research med the issues from a Biblical view where she just listened and accepted what they said. Anyway that worked , since she was trying to convert him, he was able to get her to listen and reason her out of it. TLDR: if you want to convince someone out of a cult or false belief , you can’t be family or a close friend. You have to get someone they know and will try to convert. Obviously that person has to be someone solid who won’t get sucked in.
I think many people live in communities where declaring yourself to be an Atheist is seen as a (dare I say) brave move. I'm thinking of the South in particular. This in itself could cause some to question their own beliefs.
Kind of, but they went straight to new age (which I consider worse)
No, but I've tried to find information about the process of cult deprogramming because I genuinely think that there are plenty of doubters and unbelievers who still go to religious services for the community side of things who would be shunned or face other nasty consequences if their lack of faith were discovered.
Precisely once, and I'm not sure I actually managed it. I met two Mormons, one black, one white, and I told the first gentleman to look in to the history of racism in his church. The next time I saw only the white Mormon and a new white dude.
Yes, but not intentionally. A very close friend of mine told me she began doubting her xtian faith after meeting me. At the time, I was homeless because my very xtian parents had found out I was gay and tossed me into the streets as a teen. Meeting me and learning my story caused her to question her Southern Baptist faith because she couldn’t understand how xtians could be so cruel. This led her to start reading the Bible closely, and eventually her faith collapsed. Decades later she developed cancer and barely survived. Her family used her illness to try to make her come back to Jesus so she’d go to heaven. This woman was literally facing her own death, and they took it as an opportunity to frighten her into accepting their god. She never wavered. She told me that the experience of facing her own imminent death only served to solidify her atheism. Fortunately, she survived. She’s one of my dearest friends, and I admire her so much.
Sorry your parents did that to you, you seem like a great friend!
I didn’t on purpose, friend was Mormon I didn’t know anything about it, but after talking about a church I grew up in they decided they liked normal Christianity better. I’m not religious but so far vanilla Christian is better than the ones who ride the bikes
Yes, my college roommate.
Why would you? Who the hell cares? I've got much better things to do with my time.
I'm not certain I fully convinced someone, but I did have a friend have a pretty emotional conversation with me regarding the things we've discussed for months and how it had made him come to an epiphany. It was devastating, though, because he ended up moving back to his hometown, and he admitted that I had put him in mental and emotional distress. He said it was just best not to continue our friendship, but he was happy I had helped him gain some clarity regarding his faith. I often ask people if they believe in a higher power just because I'm curious as to why. I don't share details about my views anymore unless people press me.
Not trying to deconvert anybody, but if it happens, it would be awesome. Our religious friends/relatives are aware we don't practice or believe, and I hope it just enables them to feel comfortable should they ever question things for themselves. If anybody DID admit to doubts, or wanting to leave religion, I'd be more inclined to warn them about the consequences than celebrating a "win."
I’ve found that the people who’s mind gets changed are listening to the arguments being made, not doing the arguments themselves.
Thank you for your question! As long as an entity is not causing harm to themselves, the environment, or others, I tend to let all entities settle into a belief system that feels most comfortable for them <3
Not directly, no. I was always skeptical and cynical when it came to religion. My wife went from being non-religious to a more outspoken atheist through me. My step-daughter is also atheist, and has avoided any kind of indoctrination for her kids (my grandchildren). The other side of the the family (her husband's parents) are a bit more religious, but have recognized that none of their kids is terribly interested in religion.
My brother and my sister both have told me that it was my "angry atheist" rants as a kid that made them reconsider their religion and finally accept that it's false. I've debated my parents frequently and I know they Know that christianity is bullshit because they eventually just end up asking me to stop halfway through after I make a good point. They don't want to accept that they've been believing a lie for over 40-50 years of their lives and want to just keep pretending, and my pesky facts keep getting in the way of that.
I’d imagine that long living in religion would make it difficult to reconsider and give up the faith.
A few people in my orbit have softened their stance on religion, that is they were pretty hardcore when I met them but now they are more casual believers or have transitioned to a more liberal/progressive version of Christianity. That wasn't anything I did specifically but I was the first open atheist they knew, and I generally try to be a kind and empathetic community member, and they've independently asked me a lot of questions over the years that I've answered honestly. Specifically they are other parents of kids in my son's cohort and I'm active with the school, and we've been interacting with each other in that capacity and as neighbours for ten years. One time one of their boys wanted to invite my son to a carnival being put on by their church and his mom took great pains to assure me that it's not a religious event, it's just in the church parking lot. I never told her but I really appreciated her consideration for our family in clarifying that, even thought I wasn't worried.
I'd love to say yes, but no. I leave the delusional alone for the most part.
I don’t actively try to but I frequently ask my religious family questions about god and christianity just to challenge them and provide a new perspective. most of the time these conversations turn argumentative because they start getting delusional and hypocritical and not giving straight answers to very valid questions. sometimes i feel like i come close to at least convincing them to question their religion when they start stuttering and saying “i don’t know” and “i can’t explain that” ☠️