He is just whining he can't use his name as he sold it to Harman. Also, he tried to scam people with his Red Rose brand, which was just a rebadged inexpensive Chinese brand. Now he is hawking some BS software, after he wrote a book about female orgasm with his wife (no science just non-sense).
He designed the outside of his equipment not the inside - most were design by John Curl.
The truly disgusting thing to me are the healthcare lies and misinformation that Mark Levinson spreads while shilling his C Wave products:
https://youtu.be/sM1Tnt-ufrQ?si=AYusdy0WMPM8IAW6&t=280
It's one thing if you want to sell people silly boxes or cables that they think will improve their stereo. It's entirely another when you prey on desperate people with kidney or liver issues, and claim that your snake oil can help them.
This is a bridge too far. As far as I'm concerned there should be no place in this industry for him. Trying to manipulate people based on their health concerns is just so gross.
Sidenote: in the same video, he completely misunderstands how PCM works on a fundamental level. It is not a "stair step" and never has been.
Edit: to people who keep claiming that PCM is stair steps, take a moment to watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD7YFUYLpDc&t=277s
PCM reconstructs soundwaves in a stairstep fashion, that's a fact and it's how digital waveforms are constructed. There are 44,100 tiny stairsteps or samples every second on a standard redbook CD. Most people found the sound harsh, cold, sterile and irritating. That's why oversampling was developed in the first place, to smooth those stairstep waveforms out using data interpolation while also moving the digital filtering into higher frequencies to reduce the phase shift caused by early brick wall filters. Early digital made me want to crawl out of my own skin. Digital became FAR more listenable once CD players started using oversampling. I remember it well because I wouldn't buy a CD player until Sony came out with oversampling in their ES series of players.
There are also hundreds of scientific medical research studies on the positive effects that listening to music has on our overall health, particularly on an individual's stress levels which have a positive impact on an individual's health and in particular an individual's blood pressure which is responsible for kidney failure in the elderly. I believe that's what Levinson is alluding to in the video, though I wouldn't necessarily make the leap that he is claiming. I personally find listening to music to be as relaxing as meditation in many ways. I believe that's what Levinson is getting at, albeit somewhat questionably from an ethical standpoint.
One of the reasons I invested in a modern, fully discrete R2R ladder DAC was that it oversamples PCM files at a astonishingly fast rate of 1500 kHz or 1.5 MHz, which further smooths the stairstep structure by dividing every second into 1.5 million samples per second. High res music does the same in a matter of speaking, although to a far lesser degree. Most delta/sigma DAC chips oversample PCM to smooth out the stairstep waveform while interpolating data to a greater degree but is still constrained by the DAC chipset's thermal limits. Modern fully discrete R2R ladder DACs aren't limited by a DAC chipset's thermal limits which is why they sound smoother and more lifelike without sacrificing musical detail, imaging and soundstaging. In a nutshell, discrete ladder DACs are the digital equivalent of analog's single-ended triode.
> PCM reconstructs soundwaves in a stairstep fashion, that's a fact
It just isn't. This is a fundamental misconception that keeps getting perpetuated. This video will help to give a more comprehensive understanding of how it works. I timestamped the relevant portion, but the entire thing is worth watching if you have the time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD7YFUYLpDc&t=277s
> Early digital made me want to crawl out of my own skin.
Many early CDs were poorly mastered and early DACs had a ton of room for improvement. None of this has anything to do with PCM as a concept. You're conflating how certain early DAC designs attempted to implement PCM with how PCM actually captures and encodes analog waveforms.
Tying this back to my original point, Mark Levinson isn't "solving" some fundamental flaw in PCM. He is misrepresenting how PCM operates in order to sell a new solution to his made up problem.
If you really believe that oversampling sounds better to you than a modern competent DAC that doesn't oversample, good for you. But oversampling isn't some cutting edge new technology and I'm sure you can admit that Mark Levinson isn't doing something innovative or unique here.
> There are also hundreds of scientific medical research studies on the positive effects that listening to music has on our overall health
That is not what I was talking about. No one is disputing that listening to music is linked to reductions in stress and that can have positive health implications. I was clear that I had issues with Mark Levinson's specific claims that his C Wave tech is providing kidney/liver health benefits above and beyond the control group who is listening to music without it.
OCD Mikey makes the same play…which is call out the ultra high end to make yourself look like the sensible guy selling high-end…
high end is budget gear compared to ultra high end.
Nail on the head. I like Mikey’s vids even if I disagree w half of what he says. But yeah, there are price brackets to this silly hobby which are hard to ignore
Far above entry level to be brutally honest. That said, I heard a Daniel Hertz system at a grossly affluent college buddy's place and it sounded absolutely heavenly. It was a middle of the line but was nonetheless startlingly expensive.
My sense of it is that Levinson is likely frustrated that most audio retailers are shying away from the sheer cost of the hardware, which is considerable. Most audio retailers are likely hesitant when they're already representing other top shelf brands like Wilson Audio, D'Agostino, DCS, B&W, Pass Labs and the like. They likely don't have enough showroom space available to devote to yet another stratospherically priced line of gear no matter what it is.
That said, Daniel Hertz gear is extraordinarily musical and natural sounding.
My only experience with a Mark Levinson sound system is the "Premium Sound Option" system installed in a Lexus SUV.
I HATED the sound more than anything I've ever heard. Excruciatingly bright and I think it used dual cone speakers which made the high mids harsh no matter how much you tried to alter the EQ. A sub in the back made bloated low bass but without the deep extension you'd assume with a dedicated sub and it was sorely light on any warmth in the lower mids. Honestly it sounded like it was half-broken. If I was him I'd be ashamed to have my name on it too.
Thats weird, the Mark Levinson + Dynaudio system I heard in a 13 year old Lexus is still the best stock audio system in a car I've heard. Was the one you heard also Dynaudio?
I think despite what Lexus tells you there's a wide gulf between what's in the flag ship LS sedans and LX SUVs and like an entry level NX crossover. That said I'm quite happy with the ML stereo in my 2014 IS350. I don't know if it has Dynaudio drivers, probably not since that wasn't noted in the brochure.
It was a NX hybrid from 2016. No idea if there was any Dynaudio equipment involved but didn't see any labels other than the Mark Levinson tags all over
No, it was a brand of amps and speakers with ribbon tweeters. Tube and battery powered? I can’t remember specifically. The Cello stuff was good though.
Oh, I remember the Red Rose music. You found them in China Hifi stores with their original name Korsun and later Dussun. Dussun amps are still available. They cost a fraction of the Red Rose Music amps.
I do feel like there is a lot of mystique built up about the audiophile stereo experience, waving woo and magic over the special equipment that you can buy.
I recognise the value of good engineering, and even good aesthetics are of value for most people, but let’s not overcook things.
But then again, I suppose I’m a bit of an objectivist here. I like my cables to be decent, some form of good enough. Not magic..
I also think that this focus on the purity and mystique of stereo is a blocker against innovation and functional improvements..
The biggest disconnect in audio today is the vague boundary between high performance audio gear and audio gear that's marketed in the luxury goods sector. This is exacerbated by the high cost of audio gear that relies on a high degree of precision engineering and manufacturing. This is especially apparent in the analog source market where many brands like SOTA, VPI, SME and Analog Signature rely on precision, in-house CNC machining of nearly every part their products are made from. SOTA and SME are essentially the side businesses of their owners whose principal businesses make precision parts for musical instruments (SOTA) and aerospace (SME).
But the key difference is that luxury goods are valued for their mystique and exclusivity. High performance audio gear is sold based on its ability to perform to a high degree. Most hyper expensive gear is marketed and sold to an exclusive list of clients with mad amounts of money to burn who are primarily interested in those non-performance-related aspects of the gear they buy. They want gear that looks and is eye wateringly expensive, is made by hand by skilled craftsmen in relatively miniscule quantities with costly finishes that the vast majority of people cannot even hope to afford. Unfortunately, most high-end publications have placed undue emphasis on gear that's clearly aimed at the luxury goods market.
That’s not actually him, that’s the brand under Harman. Mark sold his name to them decades ago and hasn’t been involved with them for a very long time.
And he's still bitter about it. What a waste of one's life to keep scowling about kids today, and pining for the good old days of 80s audio (that weren't actually very good on the whole, except if you were making a killing in the burgeoning high-end industry).
I can be grumpy myself but this is just grumpy talk.
You can always buy Bryston or Luxman and it will last 20 years.
There is significant innovation in, say, Class D amps.
He can't be claiming that the small companies of yesteryear had more engineering than today's companies - just think of speakers. And the public testing that is occurring now.
You can choose to spend stupid money today but you don't have to.
I'm happy with my stuff [Luxman, Marantz, Revel, VPI]
> “Today, what I feel is that the high-end audio world has become a racket, a mafia that tries to take as much money as possible from music lovers. It has nothing to do with the original spirit of the whole thing, which was to use engineering and craftsmanship in the service of music and reproducing recordings,’’ Levinson asserts.
That can be said about any consumer market with a "high-end" section.
Except nobody is forcing you to buy their stuff with threats of violence as the alternative - which is what a mafia would do.
Retired Bugatti CEO, who parachuted out with millions and has been grifting for more and more paydays constantly over the last 25 years calls Lexus and Mercedes the real problem with the auto industry. One car should last a lifetime.
Got it!
That attitude is ridiculous! Jaded crooks tell things like they are. There's a reason Soft White Underbelly is an amazing YouTube channel. It has nothing to do with audio. It's just raw testimonials of the hard knock lives of broken people.
That article has a *very* high "old man yells at cloud" score.
>He points out that industry magazines tend to feature products from advertisers, not necessarily those with the best value or performance. “Why don’t they write about Apple, like a Mac Mini?
OK, I think I can help. While the Mac Mini, like virtually *any* computer (or smartphone, or tablet), can be used for certain audiophile tasks, it's not in itself an audio component. Oh, and in fact, the audio press *does* write about Apple. For instance, [here's a (largely positive) *Stereophile* review of the AirPod Pro IIs](https://www.stereophile.com/content/apple-airpods-pro-2-noise-canceling-wireless-ear-headphones). An *audio* product, ya dig?
>... a mafia that tries to take as much money as possible from music lovers. It has nothing to do with the original spirit of the whole thing, which was to use engineering and craftsmanship in the service of music and reproducing recordings.
Funny, 'cause as a high-end aficionado, I was at AXPONA in Chicago last month and at High End Munich two weekends ago...and I saw and heard hundreds of envelope-pushing products that do exactly that. Including ones that cost three and four figures, not six or seven.
>Using this old technology with nothing new, just higher and higher prices, bigger and heavier.
Yeah, nothing new under the sun since the good old days of the original Mark Levinson gear (the 80s and early 90s), right? Dude, really.
There's Hypex, Purifi, GaN technology, and active speakers like those from Grimm Audio and Kii that use DSP to create new levels of faithful-to-the-source music listening.
We also have miniDSP, and hundreds of amplification products with advanced room correction built in.
It's so *asinine* to pretend that the years of innovation that went into Roon and all the Roon-certified hardware is of no consequence whatsoever.
It's just *dumb* to willfully look the other way when it comes to the world of lossless streaming and high-quality streamers / servers...as if those things didn't revolutionize the way we enjoy music. Hell, even the WiiM components and the sub-$1000 Eversolo gear represent real breakthroughs.
What of the dense, vibration-resistant composite materials that many high-end speakers are now made of — Rockport, Estelon, Børresen? Are they not innovations?
What about speaker companies like Dyptique and Clarisys that in recent years have essentially reinvented panel speakers, creating sound that in almost every measurable metric improves on what Magnepan and Apogee brought to the table? (This isn't to knock Magnepan or Apogee — but time marches on and despite what doddering old men say, so does the research and development that goes into the world's great audio products.)
Plus, for those who care to partake, there's spatial audio; subwoofers whose every parameter can be controlled via an app; headphones with head-tracking; full Dolby Atmos systems (and soundbars that simulate it pretty well); all kinds of multi-room audio systems; portable DACs and headphone amps that, in terms of quality and miniaturization, run circles around what was possible even just five, six years ago... I could go on.
>He compares the mainstream high-end audio market to “supermarket pasta,” where all companies utilize essentially the same technology and parts, rather than offering truly handcrafted, unique products.
This made me laugh the hardest because it's so self-evidently untrue (see above) as well as bizarrely inconsistent. You want "truly handcrafted, unique products"? No problem, they're available at fine audio dealers everywhere. Bring your wallet. Want to slam high prices at the same time? Sorry man, you can't have it both ways. That's just basic economics,
I agree that there is plenty to criticize Mark Levinson about. But let’s remember that he is a musician more than anything else. As such, he did an impressive job of elevating high end audio for a long time. Most of the engineering of his products were done by others. Levinson, the man, was successful at marketing.
Nah it’s like a whole place built by Emperor Augy in 19BC for trade n’shit. Hady did a bit of a reno and expanded it, you’ve got your tower of the winds up there that Andy of Cyrrus put in. Things got a little, ummm, destructiony in the late third century (after that Christ bloke) when the Herulians invaded but the forums a tough ol’ girl she pulled through. Course later on you had the Byzantine who lived here for a while and later on the Ottomans moved in and funny story actually they invented the foot stool which is where… oh I just realised you’re talking about internet forums. Sorry, carry on.
Regardless of his hyperbole and legit criticisms of him, I do think there's a huge problem with how "journalists" cover the industry and review the products. I so so so rarely hear a negative review on a product. I almost never hear someone question a price and ask whether it's worth it or whether it could easily be cheaper.
Within the audiophile sphere, there's a really blurred line between the journalist and a regular hobbyist where they just seem to be excited about a product, write or say some subjective phrases like "holographic" and then keep the item they got for a deal.
And don't get me started on Fremer who is more of a publicist for the industry than someone who is actually objective.
I don't know about the specifics of what Levinson is saying here but I've definitely observed some rot at least within the journalistic aspect of the hobby.
Magically a $8,000 amp always sounds better than a $3,000 amp in these reviews. When a magazine features an ad for a product that received a rave review in the previous issue, something smells fishy.
It's 2024.
I am hoping by now everyone realizes a $50,000 amplifier is genuinely just there to soak up the conspicuous consumption of the rich. Then, lower down the ladder, as is predicted by Veblen's theory of consumption, people create their own negotiation with the demand of excess expenditure and settle (like me) on a power amp that cost (at the time) a mere $6,000.
Like any hobby, like the art world, like collectibles, it's all mostly fairy dust. It's fun.
This guy trying to say there is something rotten here, and wrong, is truly tone deaf.
Stereos. We are talking about stereos. We here tend to think anything priced under a grand must be compromised.
And meanwhile over on the vintage subreddit people are cheering paying $500 for a refurbed 1975 Sansui.
Wolf of Wall Street, early scene with Matthew McConaughey. "And they say one day, they want to downsize? Uhuh, you tell them they need to try a different interconnect first. Meanwhile, we get those com-miss-ions."
I used to love vintage audio but now I hate it. Ebay and flippers killed the fun. I can't even imagine being dumb enough to pay 2K for Thorens 124 Or $800+ mid-fi 1970s receivers.
Luckily class D has gotten so good the only vintage stuff I look at are speakers.
Tis true, class D has gotten super good. I have 2 class D amps and they are sublime, especially when driven with a great preamplifier. Still love vintage audio, there are some good bargains out there - picked up a Sansui AU-101 amp in fantastic condition for 100 bucks a few days ago. Sure, I would have probably paid much less for it a decade ago before the vintage boom, but it’s a thing of beauty.
Fosi v3 w/ 48v power supply. Around 120 bucks together from Amazon. If you get the standard 32v ps, it's around 80 dollars now. Unlike some manufacturers Fosi is focusiong on good customer serve. Pl;us Amzon has its own return policy.
Use it as a power amp. Run your preamp into it and use that to control volume. Run the Fosi full out. It doesn't get hot. 70% efficiency is a wonderful thing.
I mean for the price you have me tempted to grab one and see what it’s all about… Fortunately my tube DAC (quit your eye rolling) has a volume control so I could plug that directly into the Fosi amp :)
My preamp is tube! BAT vk-3i. That means it's also the extra special *balanced* circuit. The hobby is about fun and music.
I think the easier you can make things on the Fosi the better. But a tubed DAC w/ volume control is designed to at least give a sturdy line level input. And with the Fosi running full power, you might be surprised to find the dac not needing to be turned up past 10 o'clock.
Evening listening. Volume on the preamp is at 7:30. This afternoon was rocking out to some youtube videos from a device with low output. Volume on the preamp was at noon.
Temperature on the Fosi is same either way, too.
I'm using 4ohm load speakers. The Fosi likes a flat load, and likes 4ohm.
I have ‘bargain’ Fosi Audi V3 class D power amplifiers being fed by a Omnitronic rotary preamplifier to Acoustic Research AR18S speakers via an Aune X8 Magic Dac.
This is one of my 4 stereo setups in my listening room. It’s pretty incredible, I keep coming back to it. Even over my much more expensive setups.
Nice! Hope you enjoy it as much as I do. Really magical little thing. I even tested my 6ohm Vienna Acoustics Haydn Signature standmount speakers on the Fosi V3 and it sounded stunning.
Fosi v3 owner here. I have it as power amp. 48v power supply is a must. It's pretty astounding, especially since I like sound that leans in that direction of being very clear and clean. Some do not like it, too analytical.
Running a 2k preamp, and as near as I can tell I think I am done with power amps. I'll collect preamps. Distortion figures are just too low on the class D stuff now. I'll hold on to my power amp for now, but that's a luxury keep.
I was not even paying attention to the hobby much when I decided to check out a cheep chi-fi amp while my power amp was in for its 20-year checkup.
BAT VK-500. I'll use it in the winter months now. Sometimes measurements are that clear. The little Fosi v3 is like last era's British integrateds. Cheap and cheerful. And you can collect preamps this way. Hobby value is high.
Somehow I feel like larger audio tech companies like Kef and Focal and … can put more money on RnD than a tiny artesan type of small shop and the value for the end user may be better. There’s a level of uniqueness in the small shops but I wouldn’t call the whole industry a scam or a mafia
I’m not clicking on this because it reads like some nonsense designed to generate clicks to advertise whatever it is he is selling. Omg the audiophile mafia 😱 give me a break dude 💀😆
"Levinson is said to be committed to creating audio equipment that people will not just use but **love and cherish for a lifetime**"
So just buy old Mark Levinson gear then? Or has he changed this approach from when he was selling ML amps in the 10's of thousands.
Thankfully we have honest companies like Genelec, Benchmark and Revel.
I remember demoing a Benchmark DAC-3 at the Benchmark booth at a headphone show. I put on a pair of Audeze LCD-5s they had (which cost 3.5k at the time) and our conversation went like this:
Him "just crank it all the way up and let me know what you hear"
Me: "nothing"
Him: "Exactly"
I've been buying their gear ever since.
Does he think manufacturers get fabulously wealthy selling high-end audio gear? If your goal in life is to get rich, don’t become a high-end manufacturer of amps and other such components. It’s a niche industry: the products cost a lot to manufacture, and they don’t move tens of thousands of units.
In itself i agree with all his points in the interview.
However, the man’s history - at one point selling decent yet rebranded budget chinese gear at a multiple throws shade on his believability, which is a pity.
It’s a bit like reading about Michael Cohen’s testimony.
Says a guy who puts 50 small transistors in parallel instead of one beefy one to increase parts count and make his power amplifiers more photogenic inside.
I wonder how many other long time designers are going to start weighing in now that the Chinese hifi market has matured and they’re building lots of equivalent products for a fraction of the cost - albeit still quite expensive in some cases. Class D is now developed to a point of excellent quality, so the argument for $20,000 mono blocks is far less compelling. Even well made tube gear is more affordable than ever.
My exposure to Levinson started at Classic Stereo & Video in Kalamazoo, MI, in the mid-90s. Terrific stuff, built like a tank, and it sounded great. We were happy to rep the brand.
My more personal exposure to Levinson was in my (now sold) 2008 Lexus LS600hL with the Levinson Sound System. It was, hands down, the finest audio system I have ever heard installed in a car by a manufacturer, including Burmester in a Porsche Panamera, and even the older Nakamichi stuff from early Lexus.
I miss that sound system. It was lovely.
Anyhow, he's entitled to his opinion, and I don't disagree with him, being a dealer of 'high-ish' end audio and video gear myself.
Bought my first Lexus LS in 1989 as soon as they were available, and I specified a Levinson audio in it. I can’t recall how much that upgrade cost at the time. $1500? The sound was the equal or better than any in a car I have heard since. I liked it so much I bought two of the cars.
I remember when my friend's next-door neighbor went to buy a stereo. She wasn't an "audiophile", just a regular person who wanted a decent stereo. She had money, though. This was late 90s. A few middle-of-the-range Sony separates would have been MORE than enough for her needs. $1000 max.
Instead, she was talked into buying a bunch of Mark Levinson stuff by a local HiFi shop. Spent thousands. Overkill would be the understatement of the century. They absolutely took advantage of a clueless woman with more money than sense. Can't exactly blame Levinson for his unscrupulous dealers, I suppose, but it was all pretty scummy.
He is just whining he can't use his name as he sold it to Harman. Also, he tried to scam people with his Red Rose brand, which was just a rebadged inexpensive Chinese brand. Now he is hawking some BS software, after he wrote a book about female orgasm with his wife (no science just non-sense). He designed the outside of his equipment not the inside - most were design by John Curl.
The truly disgusting thing to me are the healthcare lies and misinformation that Mark Levinson spreads while shilling his C Wave products: https://youtu.be/sM1Tnt-ufrQ?si=AYusdy0WMPM8IAW6&t=280 It's one thing if you want to sell people silly boxes or cables that they think will improve their stereo. It's entirely another when you prey on desperate people with kidney or liver issues, and claim that your snake oil can help them. This is a bridge too far. As far as I'm concerned there should be no place in this industry for him. Trying to manipulate people based on their health concerns is just so gross. Sidenote: in the same video, he completely misunderstands how PCM works on a fundamental level. It is not a "stair step" and never has been. Edit: to people who keep claiming that PCM is stair steps, take a moment to watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD7YFUYLpDc&t=277s
Oh shit, glad I now know to avoid that name like a sidewalk turd.
PCM reconstructs soundwaves in a stairstep fashion, that's a fact and it's how digital waveforms are constructed. There are 44,100 tiny stairsteps or samples every second on a standard redbook CD. Most people found the sound harsh, cold, sterile and irritating. That's why oversampling was developed in the first place, to smooth those stairstep waveforms out using data interpolation while also moving the digital filtering into higher frequencies to reduce the phase shift caused by early brick wall filters. Early digital made me want to crawl out of my own skin. Digital became FAR more listenable once CD players started using oversampling. I remember it well because I wouldn't buy a CD player until Sony came out with oversampling in their ES series of players. There are also hundreds of scientific medical research studies on the positive effects that listening to music has on our overall health, particularly on an individual's stress levels which have a positive impact on an individual's health and in particular an individual's blood pressure which is responsible for kidney failure in the elderly. I believe that's what Levinson is alluding to in the video, though I wouldn't necessarily make the leap that he is claiming. I personally find listening to music to be as relaxing as meditation in many ways. I believe that's what Levinson is getting at, albeit somewhat questionably from an ethical standpoint. One of the reasons I invested in a modern, fully discrete R2R ladder DAC was that it oversamples PCM files at a astonishingly fast rate of 1500 kHz or 1.5 MHz, which further smooths the stairstep structure by dividing every second into 1.5 million samples per second. High res music does the same in a matter of speaking, although to a far lesser degree. Most delta/sigma DAC chips oversample PCM to smooth out the stairstep waveform while interpolating data to a greater degree but is still constrained by the DAC chipset's thermal limits. Modern fully discrete R2R ladder DACs aren't limited by a DAC chipset's thermal limits which is why they sound smoother and more lifelike without sacrificing musical detail, imaging and soundstaging. In a nutshell, discrete ladder DACs are the digital equivalent of analog's single-ended triode.
> PCM reconstructs soundwaves in a stairstep fashion, that's a fact It just isn't. This is a fundamental misconception that keeps getting perpetuated. This video will help to give a more comprehensive understanding of how it works. I timestamped the relevant portion, but the entire thing is worth watching if you have the time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD7YFUYLpDc&t=277s > Early digital made me want to crawl out of my own skin. Many early CDs were poorly mastered and early DACs had a ton of room for improvement. None of this has anything to do with PCM as a concept. You're conflating how certain early DAC designs attempted to implement PCM with how PCM actually captures and encodes analog waveforms. Tying this back to my original point, Mark Levinson isn't "solving" some fundamental flaw in PCM. He is misrepresenting how PCM operates in order to sell a new solution to his made up problem. If you really believe that oversampling sounds better to you than a modern competent DAC that doesn't oversample, good for you. But oversampling isn't some cutting edge new technology and I'm sure you can admit that Mark Levinson isn't doing something innovative or unique here. > There are also hundreds of scientific medical research studies on the positive effects that listening to music has on our overall health That is not what I was talking about. No one is disputing that listening to music is linked to reductions in stress and that can have positive health implications. I was clear that I had issues with Mark Levinson's specific claims that his C Wave tech is providing kidney/liver health benefits above and beyond the control group who is listening to music without it.
Yeah homeboy is clearly not an engineer and absolutely has never worked in acoustical metrology
I also found it weird that he's complaining when his gear prices aren't exactly entry level either
OCD Mikey makes the same play…which is call out the ultra high end to make yourself look like the sensible guy selling high-end… high end is budget gear compared to ultra high end.
Nail on the head. I like Mikey’s vids even if I disagree w half of what he says. But yeah, there are price brackets to this silly hobby which are hard to ignore
Far above entry level to be brutally honest. That said, I heard a Daniel Hertz system at a grossly affluent college buddy's place and it sounded absolutely heavenly. It was a middle of the line but was nonetheless startlingly expensive. My sense of it is that Levinson is likely frustrated that most audio retailers are shying away from the sheer cost of the hardware, which is considerable. Most audio retailers are likely hesitant when they're already representing other top shelf brands like Wilson Audio, D'Agostino, DCS, B&W, Pass Labs and the like. They likely don't have enough showroom space available to devote to yet another stratospherically priced line of gear no matter what it is. That said, Daniel Hertz gear is extraordinarily musical and natural sounding.
That's quite a rollercoaster. Did he experiment with subwoofers and orgasms?
I mean, he was married to Kim Cattrall for a long time, so…
Is that a market opportunity i see for ride-on-subwoofers? 100% wife approved, satisfaction guaranteed.
My only experience with a Mark Levinson sound system is the "Premium Sound Option" system installed in a Lexus SUV. I HATED the sound more than anything I've ever heard. Excruciatingly bright and I think it used dual cone speakers which made the high mids harsh no matter how much you tried to alter the EQ. A sub in the back made bloated low bass but without the deep extension you'd assume with a dedicated sub and it was sorely light on any warmth in the lower mids. Honestly it sounded like it was half-broken. If I was him I'd be ashamed to have my name on it too.
Thats weird, the Mark Levinson + Dynaudio system I heard in a 13 year old Lexus is still the best stock audio system in a car I've heard. Was the one you heard also Dynaudio?
I think despite what Lexus tells you there's a wide gulf between what's in the flag ship LS sedans and LX SUVs and like an entry level NX crossover. That said I'm quite happy with the ML stereo in my 2014 IS350. I don't know if it has Dynaudio drivers, probably not since that wasn't noted in the brochure.
It was a NX hybrid from 2016. No idea if there was any Dynaudio equipment involved but didn't see any labels other than the Mark Levinson tags all over
Dynaudio in a Lexus from the factory?
To be frank, this is from the ML company long after he sold it.
John Curl is the man. Love my JC designed Parasound gear.
Red rose? Is that hifi rose or something like that?
No, it was a brand of amps and speakers with ribbon tweeters. Tube and battery powered? I can’t remember specifically. The Cello stuff was good though.
Oh, I remember the Red Rose music. You found them in China Hifi stores with their original name Korsun and later Dussun. Dussun amps are still available. They cost a fraction of the Red Rose Music amps.
I thought they were Aurum Cantos?
Aurum Cantus might have been the speakers, but the amps were Korsun (Dussun) V8i, as far as I remember.
It was Red Rose - he had a store in NYC.
So, what about Daniel Hertz?
What Hertz developed is not what Levinson is hawking. I have no idea what what he is hawking, but it is not what the software does.
>Red Rose brand> This.
I do feel like there is a lot of mystique built up about the audiophile stereo experience, waving woo and magic over the special equipment that you can buy. I recognise the value of good engineering, and even good aesthetics are of value for most people, but let’s not overcook things. But then again, I suppose I’m a bit of an objectivist here. I like my cables to be decent, some form of good enough. Not magic.. I also think that this focus on the purity and mystique of stereo is a blocker against innovation and functional improvements..
The biggest disconnect in audio today is the vague boundary between high performance audio gear and audio gear that's marketed in the luxury goods sector. This is exacerbated by the high cost of audio gear that relies on a high degree of precision engineering and manufacturing. This is especially apparent in the analog source market where many brands like SOTA, VPI, SME and Analog Signature rely on precision, in-house CNC machining of nearly every part their products are made from. SOTA and SME are essentially the side businesses of their owners whose principal businesses make precision parts for musical instruments (SOTA) and aerospace (SME). But the key difference is that luxury goods are valued for their mystique and exclusivity. High performance audio gear is sold based on its ability to perform to a high degree. Most hyper expensive gear is marketed and sold to an exclusive list of clients with mad amounts of money to burn who are primarily interested in those non-performance-related aspects of the gear they buy. They want gear that looks and is eye wateringly expensive, is made by hand by skilled craftsmen in relatively miniscule quantities with costly finishes that the vast majority of people cannot even hope to afford. Unfortunately, most high-end publications have placed undue emphasis on gear that's clearly aimed at the luxury goods market.
I guess I'm confused on why he says this when his own amplifiers sell for the price of a new car
He's basically saying his own version of "i'm not like other girls"
So, Mark Levinson, right? The brand that sells 50th Anniversary M50 monoblocks for… $50k a pair? OK 👍
Snake oil salesman calls out bridge salesmen...
Cage match between Mark and Paul from PS Audio. Only one man leaves....
I think the newer PS Audio speakers are “only” 4 figures
Throw in Danny from GR Research and Ted Denney from Synergistic Research.
😂
That’s not actually him, that’s the brand under Harman. Mark sold his name to them decades ago and hasn’t been involved with them for a very long time.
Correct. And if Mark was still with the company those same amps would have been priced at 150k
And he's still bitter about it. What a waste of one's life to keep scowling about kids today, and pining for the good old days of 80s audio (that weren't actually very good on the whole, except if you were making a killing in the burgeoning high-end industry).
Mark had lost control of his company to Madrigal Audio long before Madrigal was bought by Harman.
No, he sold his name/brand to Harman. He has nothing to do with the electronics. Harman is now owned by Samsung..
I can't help but imagine the spiderman meme lol
I can be grumpy myself but this is just grumpy talk. You can always buy Bryston or Luxman and it will last 20 years. There is significant innovation in, say, Class D amps. He can't be claiming that the small companies of yesteryear had more engineering than today's companies - just think of speakers. And the public testing that is occurring now. You can choose to spend stupid money today but you don't have to. I'm happy with my stuff [Luxman, Marantz, Revel, VPI]
I have Carver for one and Bang & Olufsen for 2 more. Classic. I love all of them.
Ditto on the Carver. A TFM-55 power amplifier. Love her eyes.
Sonic holography.
> “Today, what I feel is that the high-end audio world has become a racket, a mafia that tries to take as much money as possible from music lovers. It has nothing to do with the original spirit of the whole thing, which was to use engineering and craftsmanship in the service of music and reproducing recordings,’’ Levinson asserts. That can be said about any consumer market with a "high-end" section. Except nobody is forcing you to buy their stuff with threats of violence as the alternative - which is what a mafia would do.
I think this can be applied to almost the complete spectrum of consumer electronics/engineering
Retired Bugatti CEO, who parachuted out with millions and has been grifting for more and more paydays constantly over the last 25 years calls Lexus and Mercedes the real problem with the auto industry. One car should last a lifetime. Got it!
It sounds like he's describing capitalism to me.
Agreed. I'm not taking any lessons in ethics from a guy who rebranded Dussun stuff and resold it for 3x the price.
That attitude is ridiculous! Jaded crooks tell things like they are. There's a reason Soft White Underbelly is an amazing YouTube channel. It has nothing to do with audio. It's just raw testimonials of the hard knock lives of broken people.
That article has a *very* high "old man yells at cloud" score. >He points out that industry magazines tend to feature products from advertisers, not necessarily those with the best value or performance. “Why don’t they write about Apple, like a Mac Mini? OK, I think I can help. While the Mac Mini, like virtually *any* computer (or smartphone, or tablet), can be used for certain audiophile tasks, it's not in itself an audio component. Oh, and in fact, the audio press *does* write about Apple. For instance, [here's a (largely positive) *Stereophile* review of the AirPod Pro IIs](https://www.stereophile.com/content/apple-airpods-pro-2-noise-canceling-wireless-ear-headphones). An *audio* product, ya dig? >... a mafia that tries to take as much money as possible from music lovers. It has nothing to do with the original spirit of the whole thing, which was to use engineering and craftsmanship in the service of music and reproducing recordings. Funny, 'cause as a high-end aficionado, I was at AXPONA in Chicago last month and at High End Munich two weekends ago...and I saw and heard hundreds of envelope-pushing products that do exactly that. Including ones that cost three and four figures, not six or seven. >Using this old technology with nothing new, just higher and higher prices, bigger and heavier. Yeah, nothing new under the sun since the good old days of the original Mark Levinson gear (the 80s and early 90s), right? Dude, really. There's Hypex, Purifi, GaN technology, and active speakers like those from Grimm Audio and Kii that use DSP to create new levels of faithful-to-the-source music listening. We also have miniDSP, and hundreds of amplification products with advanced room correction built in. It's so *asinine* to pretend that the years of innovation that went into Roon and all the Roon-certified hardware is of no consequence whatsoever. It's just *dumb* to willfully look the other way when it comes to the world of lossless streaming and high-quality streamers / servers...as if those things didn't revolutionize the way we enjoy music. Hell, even the WiiM components and the sub-$1000 Eversolo gear represent real breakthroughs. What of the dense, vibration-resistant composite materials that many high-end speakers are now made of — Rockport, Estelon, Børresen? Are they not innovations? What about speaker companies like Dyptique and Clarisys that in recent years have essentially reinvented panel speakers, creating sound that in almost every measurable metric improves on what Magnepan and Apogee brought to the table? (This isn't to knock Magnepan or Apogee — but time marches on and despite what doddering old men say, so does the research and development that goes into the world's great audio products.) Plus, for those who care to partake, there's spatial audio; subwoofers whose every parameter can be controlled via an app; headphones with head-tracking; full Dolby Atmos systems (and soundbars that simulate it pretty well); all kinds of multi-room audio systems; portable DACs and headphone amps that, in terms of quality and miniaturization, run circles around what was possible even just five, six years ago... I could go on. >He compares the mainstream high-end audio market to “supermarket pasta,” where all companies utilize essentially the same technology and parts, rather than offering truly handcrafted, unique products. This made me laugh the hardest because it's so self-evidently untrue (see above) as well as bizarrely inconsistent. You want "truly handcrafted, unique products"? No problem, they're available at fine audio dealers everywhere. Bring your wallet. Want to slam high prices at the same time? Sorry man, you can't have it both ways. That's just basic economics,
I agree that there is plenty to criticize Mark Levinson about. But let’s remember that he is a musician more than anything else. As such, he did an impressive job of elevating high end audio for a long time. Most of the engineering of his products were done by others. Levinson, the man, was successful at marketing.
He IS an icon. Hands down. No question about it. But that doesn't mean he's a saint
What are those tactics?
TL,DR: he basically called some audio brands as "scammers" for just recycling techs and repackaging them as groundbreaking to charge more money
Tbf that's an issue with a lot of technological brands. Innovation costs money, recycling less so
Thanks 👍
Read the article.
You know forums are places for discussion right?
Nah it’s like a whole place built by Emperor Augy in 19BC for trade n’shit. Hady did a bit of a reno and expanded it, you’ve got your tower of the winds up there that Andy of Cyrrus put in. Things got a little, ummm, destructiony in the late third century (after that Christ bloke) when the Herulians invaded but the forums a tough ol’ girl she pulled through. Course later on you had the Byzantine who lived here for a while and later on the Ottomans moved in and funny story actually they invented the foot stool which is where… oh I just realised you’re talking about internet forums. Sorry, carry on.
Regardless of his hyperbole and legit criticisms of him, I do think there's a huge problem with how "journalists" cover the industry and review the products. I so so so rarely hear a negative review on a product. I almost never hear someone question a price and ask whether it's worth it or whether it could easily be cheaper. Within the audiophile sphere, there's a really blurred line between the journalist and a regular hobbyist where they just seem to be excited about a product, write or say some subjective phrases like "holographic" and then keep the item they got for a deal. And don't get me started on Fremer who is more of a publicist for the industry than someone who is actually objective. I don't know about the specifics of what Levinson is saying here but I've definitely observed some rot at least within the journalistic aspect of the hobby.
Magically a $8,000 amp always sounds better than a $3,000 amp in these reviews. When a magazine features an ad for a product that received a rave review in the previous issue, something smells fishy.
I get what you’re saying but go check out the latest klipshorn review in stereophile :-)
It's 2024. I am hoping by now everyone realizes a $50,000 amplifier is genuinely just there to soak up the conspicuous consumption of the rich. Then, lower down the ladder, as is predicted by Veblen's theory of consumption, people create their own negotiation with the demand of excess expenditure and settle (like me) on a power amp that cost (at the time) a mere $6,000. Like any hobby, like the art world, like collectibles, it's all mostly fairy dust. It's fun. This guy trying to say there is something rotten here, and wrong, is truly tone deaf. Stereos. We are talking about stereos. We here tend to think anything priced under a grand must be compromised. And meanwhile over on the vintage subreddit people are cheering paying $500 for a refurbed 1975 Sansui. Wolf of Wall Street, early scene with Matthew McConaughey. "And they say one day, they want to downsize? Uhuh, you tell them they need to try a different interconnect first. Meanwhile, we get those com-miss-ions."
I used to love vintage audio but now I hate it. Ebay and flippers killed the fun. I can't even imagine being dumb enough to pay 2K for Thorens 124 Or $800+ mid-fi 1970s receivers. Luckily class D has gotten so good the only vintage stuff I look at are speakers.
Tis true, class D has gotten super good. I have 2 class D amps and they are sublime, especially when driven with a great preamplifier. Still love vintage audio, there are some good bargains out there - picked up a Sansui AU-101 amp in fantastic condition for 100 bucks a few days ago. Sure, I would have probably paid much less for it a decade ago before the vintage boom, but it’s a thing of beauty.
For my own edification what do you consider a sublime class D amplifier? I mean brand and model etc.
Fosi v3 w/ 48v power supply. Around 120 bucks together from Amazon. If you get the standard 32v ps, it's around 80 dollars now. Unlike some manufacturers Fosi is focusiong on good customer serve. Pl;us Amzon has its own return policy. Use it as a power amp. Run your preamp into it and use that to control volume. Run the Fosi full out. It doesn't get hot. 70% efficiency is a wonderful thing.
I mean for the price you have me tempted to grab one and see what it’s all about… Fortunately my tube DAC (quit your eye rolling) has a volume control so I could plug that directly into the Fosi amp :)
My preamp is tube! BAT vk-3i. That means it's also the extra special *balanced* circuit. The hobby is about fun and music. I think the easier you can make things on the Fosi the better. But a tubed DAC w/ volume control is designed to at least give a sturdy line level input. And with the Fosi running full power, you might be surprised to find the dac not needing to be turned up past 10 o'clock. Evening listening. Volume on the preamp is at 7:30. This afternoon was rocking out to some youtube videos from a device with low output. Volume on the preamp was at noon. Temperature on the Fosi is same either way, too. I'm using 4ohm load speakers. The Fosi likes a flat load, and likes 4ohm.
I have ‘bargain’ Fosi Audi V3 class D power amplifiers being fed by a Omnitronic rotary preamplifier to Acoustic Research AR18S speakers via an Aune X8 Magic Dac. This is one of my 4 stereo setups in my listening room. It’s pretty incredible, I keep coming back to it. Even over my much more expensive setups.
Ok well I just bought the 48vdc version should arrive tmro! :)
Nice! Hope you enjoy it as much as I do. Really magical little thing. I even tested my 6ohm Vienna Acoustics Haydn Signature standmount speakers on the Fosi V3 and it sounded stunning.
Fosi v3 owner here. I have it as power amp. 48v power supply is a must. It's pretty astounding, especially since I like sound that leans in that direction of being very clear and clean. Some do not like it, too analytical. Running a 2k preamp, and as near as I can tell I think I am done with power amps. I'll collect preamps. Distortion figures are just too low on the class D stuff now. I'll hold on to my power amp for now, but that's a luxury keep. I was not even paying attention to the hobby much when I decided to check out a cheep chi-fi amp while my power amp was in for its 20-year checkup. BAT VK-500. I'll use it in the winter months now. Sometimes measurements are that clear. The little Fosi v3 is like last era's British integrateds. Cheap and cheerful. And you can collect preamps this way. Hobby value is high.
Somehow I feel like larger audio tech companies like Kef and Focal and … can put more money on RnD than a tiny artesan type of small shop and the value for the end user may be better. There’s a level of uniqueness in the small shops but I wouldn’t call the whole industry a scam or a mafia
I’m not clicking on this because it reads like some nonsense designed to generate clicks to advertise whatever it is he is selling. Omg the audiophile mafia 😱 give me a break dude 💀😆
Old man gonna old man
"Levinson is said to be committed to creating audio equipment that people will not just use but **love and cherish for a lifetime**" So just buy old Mark Levinson gear then? Or has he changed this approach from when he was selling ML amps in the 10's of thousands. Thankfully we have honest companies like Genelec, Benchmark and Revel.
I remember demoing a Benchmark DAC-3 at the Benchmark booth at a headphone show. I put on a pair of Audeze LCD-5s they had (which cost 3.5k at the time) and our conversation went like this: Him "just crank it all the way up and let me know what you hear" Me: "nothing" Him: "Exactly" I've been buying their gear ever since.
Does he think manufacturers get fabulously wealthy selling high-end audio gear? If your goal in life is to get rich, don’t become a high-end manufacturer of amps and other such components. It’s a niche industry: the products cost a lot to manufacture, and they don’t move tens of thousands of units.
Whether he’s reliable or not, There’s no denying that a lot of marketing is done by creating hype over brand and products!
In itself i agree with all his points in the interview. However, the man’s history - at one point selling decent yet rebranded budget chinese gear at a multiple throws shade on his believability, which is a pity. It’s a bit like reading about Michael Cohen’s testimony.
Says a guy who puts 50 small transistors in parallel instead of one beefy one to increase parts count and make his power amplifiers more photogenic inside.
I wonder how many other long time designers are going to start weighing in now that the Chinese hifi market has matured and they’re building lots of equivalent products for a fraction of the cost - albeit still quite expensive in some cases. Class D is now developed to a point of excellent quality, so the argument for $20,000 mono blocks is far less compelling. Even well made tube gear is more affordable than ever.
My exposure to Levinson started at Classic Stereo & Video in Kalamazoo, MI, in the mid-90s. Terrific stuff, built like a tank, and it sounded great. We were happy to rep the brand. My more personal exposure to Levinson was in my (now sold) 2008 Lexus LS600hL with the Levinson Sound System. It was, hands down, the finest audio system I have ever heard installed in a car by a manufacturer, including Burmester in a Porsche Panamera, and even the older Nakamichi stuff from early Lexus. I miss that sound system. It was lovely. Anyhow, he's entitled to his opinion, and I don't disagree with him, being a dealer of 'high-ish' end audio and video gear myself.
Bought my first Lexus LS in 1989 as soon as they were available, and I specified a Levinson audio in it. I can’t recall how much that upgrade cost at the time. $1500? The sound was the equal or better than any in a car I have heard since. I liked it so much I bought two of the cars.
I had a very similar experience….its been a long time but the Nakamichi system in my mom’s late 90’s LS400 was the best system I’ve heard in a car
I buy all my stuff used so it's fine with me
This guy is just upset that there is more competition on his $20k+ amps. It is capitalism, not mafia tactics.
Yay. Now I can feel better about buying that $35,000 Maria integrated…
I remember when my friend's next-door neighbor went to buy a stereo. She wasn't an "audiophile", just a regular person who wanted a decent stereo. She had money, though. This was late 90s. A few middle-of-the-range Sony separates would have been MORE than enough for her needs. $1000 max. Instead, she was talked into buying a bunch of Mark Levinson stuff by a local HiFi shop. Spent thousands. Overkill would be the understatement of the century. They absolutely took advantage of a clueless woman with more money than sense. Can't exactly blame Levinson for his unscrupulous dealers, I suppose, but it was all pretty scummy.