99 times out of 100, the answer will be whatever that person has in their possession! And therefore I will say Dynaudio’s Confidence speakers are excellent.
I have M16's already and love those. Not sure if the M106 will be a noticeable upgrade or not, but I hope so! These are likely my endgame speakers if they are even a tiny bit better than the M16's.
I currently have M16's which I love their sound, but not the glossy black look so much. The M106's are glossy walnut, which I like better. Hopefully there will be at least a minor upgrade in sound quality, but I'm very excited. Even if they only sound as good as the M16's, they are likely my endgame speakers.
I knew them as dream studio monitors back 20 years ago, and now I’ve got the 20s (so the “cheapest” of the confidence range) at home and they are really really good.
Used to love them. Then I got Xeno 4 with good discount and really enjoy them. Fast forward a year or so and the connect box died. No other way to connect the speaker to streamer. End up with 2 door stopper.
Talked to the support and they have no solution 😭
After the cabinet was damaged on my Dynaudios, they refused to send an empty replacement one to my dealer. For the amount of money I spent on it I should have been able to get spare parts.
O own the Dynaudio Confidence 3 (the older series made from 1994 to 2002) and moved to less expensive Morel Octaves and I won't go back. The Morels have a way more open sound. The Confidences only exceed them in bass quality and quantity but even there I believe it's a matter of preference.
Thanks. ML made a ton of money and (I understand) sound by singer in NY bankrolled it. And he sold ML to Madrigal (who later sold it to Harman). Further he had John Curl and John Coagliano (please correct my spelling) do the engineering. Please leave the stage ML.
It's not a matter of being "better" rather than "more suitable to one's own subjective taste". Pass uses distortion in an "euphonic" way, while other designers (Benchmark Media, Hypex, Purifi or Quad back in the days of Peter Walker) try to achieve maximal accuracy in the reproduced signal and hence reducing distortion to negligible levels.
When two designs aim at different results, there canot be absolute "better" or "worse".
This is a great reply! Nelson Pass doesn't hide the fact that many people like their music colored. The degree of coloration (or lack thereof) is what most disagree about.
That’s apples and oranges. Pass designs and builds solid state class A or class AB amps. Nord and Apollon use third party class D modules. They might design their own input buffers, I’m not sure, but mostly they are amplifier integrators.
Not saying they don’t sound great, I use a Boxem Purifi at home and love it, but they are not the same thing.
For those thinking AR is an easy decision, beware newer products produced in 2023 and 2024 as they are under new ownership after bankruptcy and things might change. They are still supporting all their old products, and MiUSA is pretty excellent! So definitely do not write them off.
Revel, genelec, neumann, benchmark.
I'd happily spend my money on all of these brands. None of them are cheap, but their performance are exceptional. One thing they -all- these companies have in common is Engineering First.
Benchmark: SOTA amps for $4k!? Too cheap & small box for audiophiles! If AHB2 was x3 as expensive, full-size chassi and weighted in at 50lbs then more audiophiles would be interested. Their LA4 pre-amp might be the most precise volume control, who the hell put a 256-step attenuator in an amp?
Revel: Putting their owners group harman's research to use (JBL who's under the same ownership don't do this and has released several duds, l100 for example). Their speakers go through their famous double blind-test and all their speakers are produced according to the HK curve and measure close to perfect. Even their cheap stuff is really good.
Genelec, Neumann: Excellent studio-monitors (without the added hifi-markup) with DSP. Even their expensive stuff give you high-end audio for "cheap" compared to main-stream hifi. Why not combine with a benchmark volume control?
> when there is a McIntosh stack posted, there's a slew of comments saying that you're paying for the name and VU meters, that there are better sounding amps for less
Just want to point out that there is nothing wrong with paying extra for a name or VU meters. There is even nothing wrong with ***feeling*** like the music sounds better ***to you*** because of the gear you're using.
The main thing I have an issue with is when people make recommendations to other people based on those gut feelings rather than attempting in a somewhat objective fashion to understand which things are actually improving the audio experience and which are not.
Also, the reality is that above a certain price, there is not much stuff out there that outright sounds bad. Whether you prefer one $300K speaker over another $300K speaker, can largely be left up to subjective preference. If all you cared about was a perfect measuring speaker, you can buy a pair of Genelec 8361A for $10K and "win" this hobby.
Same goes for amps. There are definitely amps out there that cost a fraction as much as McIntosh and measure better. Will you actually hear a difference in a controlled blind test? Almost certainly not.
I upgraded from my Emotiva amp *for the name and VU meters*. Currently running a Yamaha A-S3200, and yes, I know I'm getting the same sound as from the A-S1200 and cheaper amps, and yes, I did it because it's got the biggest VU meters of all the Yamahas (besides the M-5000).
The **feeling** that you talk about is exactly why. Turning on the amp and seeing that glow gives me joy. When music plays and the needles dance, I feel like I can just settle in and enjoy the experience instead of just sitting there and stare off. It's almost like a ritual, and it's soothing as heck. Not everyone is going to have the same experience and that's fine.
I am well aware that instead of spending McIntosh money on an amp, I could have just bought a Hypex/Purifi Class D in a box and been done with it. For what it's worth, I've had my KEF R3 Metas hooked up to an Emotiva BasX, NAD t778, NAD C 3050, TEAC AP-701, and a Denon AVR-X4800H. None of them have given me the inky black, imperceptible noise floor that the Yamaha does. Every single one of those had some hiss (C 3050 was the worst offender) and I had no idea it was the amplifier until I got the Yamaha.
Ooof, sorry. I will say that the C 3050 was the first integrated I tried to upgrade from the Emotiva before moving on to the others listed. It was really disappointing to hear such loud buzzing. Keep in mind I was using it as a power amp by bypassing the onboard DAC. I think when I unplugged it from my Denon and tried the onboard DAC (like how most people would) it sounded fine, but that's not an acceptable outcome in my opinion.
Really disappointing considering how well-regarded NAD gear is but from what I have read, they have a tendency to cheap out on internal components. I'm also still annoyed that they advertise swappable MDC modules on their receivers, and several years later still haven't released an HDMI 2.1 module despite promising it.
Edit: also, one more red flag against the C 3050. When you turn it on, it takes literally 15-30 seconds to wake up before playing music. I don’t know why, but it’s a design feature. May not be a big deal for some people but I found it aggravating and unnecessary when literally every other amp I used wakes up immediately.
Whilst I could never afford it that amp is a thing of beauty.
I get the exact same warm and fuzzy feelings smoking a J and staring at the tube glow of my Jolida 6802 amp, when I turn the lights down low, and have a toke at night and watch those 7 tubes glow it’s like watching a fireplace, I almost wish it had the levels so I could have a fireplace and a ritual dance 😂
The Jolida cost me about $1500 the sound is incredible for the cost
That’s the big issue in these forums. People crave other people’s opinion on what sounds good. Everyone needs to go out and listen to pieces before buying and stop asking other people what’s best.
That's true! Sadly, a lot of folks don't live within distance of a good hi-fi dealer. One thing I endorse is a no-worry in-home trial policy, like Benchmark does. Nothing beats hearing a potential new product in YOUR room with YOUR electronics and YOUR music.
It would be great if more manufactures offered trial periods for their products. I get it’s not ideal and I’d hate it if that resulted in hifi shops losing business (cause I fully support them). But it’s hard to make an informed buying decision without listening in your own environment.
Funnily enough, I think that speakers are an area where there can be significant differences, not so much at $300k perhaps but at lower levels.
I tend to think that most well designed pre’s and DACs sound the same. There’s been competitions saying the power amps all sound the same. But speakers are the interface to the real world. You’ve got to be happy with those.
That said, to meet the OPs question and the top commenters point, I’ve got some second hand genelecs that I think sound excellent and were very good value for money.
Yeah, speakers absolutely sound different. My point was mainly that once you get outside of entry level pricing, speakers that are outright bad are pretty rare these days. So there is a large amount of subjectivity involved in your personal preference. You don't necessarily need to aim for the speaker that most closely adheres to Harman preference targets.
While I don't personally think Genelec is out there scamming people, I agree that they aren't necessarily best value for money. Neumann is already somewhat better, and generally competes 1:1 against it.
But yeah, 2nd hand Genelecs are probably really solid. The speakers are reliable for daily professional use, and typically so well protected that as long as someone didn't poke the tweeters with needles or deliberately pour water inside them, they're almost certainly going to work and sound just the same as when new.
Yeah, Genelec kinda milks their position as the industry leader in this product segment, but not absurdly so.
There are definitely other product segments where the perceived industry leader will charge 5-10X as much as their competitors who are as good but don't have the pedigree.
I agree though that at the high end, Neumann monitors can be as good or slightly better in certain aspects. Though if you want a true point source, then you still might want to go with Genelec "The Ones".
And in the budget range, Adam Audio and Kali Audio provide way more value than Genelec's entry level speakers at a given price point.
Exactly this my friend. This is a hobby not a contest. There is more to this hobby than measurements and SINAD. Distortion can be beautiful, tube glow or vu meter glow can make you feel happier and that is all that counts. Enjoy the music and enjoy your gear.
I bought a Reflex C to pair with my LP12 a few months ago, I demoed before purchase at the dealer so had no need to use the try at home program, but it’s a great idea. I also found the forums very helpful before deciding to purchase one. I think they’re a brand who really do put the music first.
Top actual proven performing brands would be KEF, Revel, and Genelec
But for higher end very expensive stuff... I dunno, maybe Wisdom Audio, or Magico?
- Not yet mentioned: Magneplanar. If you have the space, really good, well engineered speakers, that are less expensive than many.
- i do find Harbeth speakers offering value. They are not cheap, but at a local hifi show where I listen to them every year, I notice how much more natural the voices sound vs most much more expensive speakers at that show
- Nad M-series. Very nicely made, and the purifi amp circuit in the M33 is very difficult to improve upon
- Genelec active speakers. Expensive, but the deep engineering has its results
- the prestigious top models of JBL including those monitor like ones for the japanese market. The savoir-faire is there
- Line Magnetic. Excellent chinese tube amps, probably the best of the crop in China. You can put them against top western tube amps
- Quad. Nowadays made in china (still engineered in UK), and they still offer well designed products that last
- i may be an outlier here but I never had a bad experience listening to McIntosh on all kinds of speakers. One of the best systems I ever heard had Mc driving big Magneplanars that I mentioned above. Yes, you pay for prestige, but at least there is nothing wrong with the product.
In the market and love the design of Magneplanar / magnepan and trying to find some to listen to near me... what size room would be enough space? My most likely room is 19x22 or so which would be music and larger screen in the upstairs "media room"... else in a larger open living/dining/kitchen area... with less safety from Boston terrors...
It is important to give them enough space behind them, 1-2m at least. They are a dipole, radiating equally in opposite phase to the back. You need to play a bit with positioning to get the best bass (magneplanar bass is refined for music, but does lack slam for AV use)
So more breathing room behind as far as space concerns than front? I could easily do 1.5 maybe 2m, and sit mid room (L shape sofa), but sides would be slightly tighter since I couldn't have the panels blocking the screen... and I optimistically misremembered the room... 19'x13' or 5.8mx4m. Perhaps I have to reconsider my dream speakers...
It should be ok in that room. The 1.7 is already very good I think (I remember the older 1.5 being excellent) and a but less massive in the room.
It is not exactly breathing room. The sound at the back will reflect bak on the wall and mix with the direct sound. Hence you need to experiment a bit with best position
Genelec. And I don't even own their stuff (yet). Genuinely some of the best stuff I've ever heard.
I'd like to think emotiva too because that's mostly what I rock right now.
There is musically satisfying gear at every price point. It is entirely possible to together a stereo system that you enjoy using components that are considered low cost. Likewise, you can spend a lot of money on a stereo system that disappoints.
You need to listen (to components when possible) to determine the type of sound signature you prefer. Once you know what type of sound you like (e.g. laid back, or more forward, more or less bass, more or less treble) then you can begin to choose components for how they make you feel. Maybe you like a cerebral presentation. Or maybe you like a more relaxed but emotional expression of the music.
You will eventually form an idea of the sound signature you like along with how you want to feel about the music. Once you determine that you can decide what you want to spend and include any lifestyle considerations into your purchase.
Audio is a fun hobby but you don’t want to rush your purchase decisions if you want to be happy in the long term.
Don’t focus too much on brands. Lots of companies make good components. At all price ranges you can put together a system that you really like.
Enjoy.
In order to buy audio gear that's ever increasing in price one has to believe that there's some mystical unattainable perfect sound and the technology continually advances in small stepts towards that. You can't sell common sense to a niche market where nonsense is revered. I don't think I'm able to find that interview I read a while back because I can't recall any specifics but the highlight was that one maker of "ultra high end" said something that sounded almost like trolling, think Star Trek flux capacitor kind of nonsense. To this day I have the suspcicion that they guy thought let's see how far we can crank up the bullshit generator and people still buy our stuff. I mean, remember this this is the hobby where Srajan Ebaen or whatever his name is wrote about some stickers you glue onto whatever piece of equipment and they improve the quantum something so music sounds better. The only advice I have for everyone is listen before you buy and stop reading any audio press now.
Well said. On that topic, I’m not sure of the overlap between computer geek and audiophile, but I enjoyed this LTT video of audiophile snake oil product reactions: [Audio Scams](https://youtu.be/JMAu_mCxoII?si=0OqoFwzAZTYpB2m1)
I have a McIntosh system and I love it. Sure it might not be the best bang for the buck but I love the way they look and they still sound awesome. McIntosh is what got me into the hobby in the first place. I saw them in an audio shop when I was a kid and I was immediately hooked they looked like nothing I’d ever seen. I knew that as soon as I could afford it I would get a McIntosh amp. It wasn’t until I was in college that I could finally afford one and it was an MC2125 which at the time was already 30 years old. Eventually sold it for a profit and upgraded to an MC7300. Sold that one for a profit as well and upgraded to a floor display MC302 which was a current model at the time. Still have the MC302 and I have no interest in replacing it. I know I could sell it and buy a pair of Benchmark AHB2s and run them in mono which would technically be higher quality but in my opinion there’s more to the hobby than just raw audio quality. You also have to be proud of what you own as well.
I bought a used Vandersteen subwoofer and it showed up with a rattle. I called Vandersteen tech support and left a message. I got a call back and the guy diagnosed the problem and asked me to send it in. At the end of the call I asked who I was speaking to and he said “Richard Vandersteen.”
Mr Sony isn’t going to call me back.
That’s awesome! I was an aspiring speaker designer while in high school, and he was coming to do a dinner event at the hi fi shop I worked at, but unfortunately I had to go back to school so I didn’t make it… he actually took the time and called me just to tell me “don’t let them bullshit you, it’s all about waveform preservation”
He really is a good guy that makes great speakers…
I would also put Parasound in this group….
And I’m sure there are a ton of small speakers brands that this applies to, just because it’s much more approachable in terms of productization…
Audio Note, but *not* Audio Note UK. People should know that the latter has nearly nothing to do with the former, which is reflected in both quality and pricing.
Ya, I mean I’ve always been super impressed, and they get a lot of press especially for not having the bells and whistles and VU meters of others… I’ve just not gotten the chance to critically listen in a space and with speakers I know…
I would see McIntosh gear back in the early 70s and knew I would never be able to afford any. So I set my eyes on Marantz. I got a Marantz after college and still have it to this day. What an awesome machine. But along the way, I was able to afford a McIntosh. I recently scored a used MHA headphone amp and it makes me incredibly happy. It also sounds damn good.
Audio by Van Alstine
Frank and Mary are gems of people (you’ll likely talk to Frank himself if you call) and I find their products absolutely bang-for-buck in audiophile terms (still kinda pricy, but punches way above their weight).
Scrolled way too far to find AVA.
Mary IS amazing. Got to meet and chat with her at AXPONA this year, that was a hoot. She and Larry helped me troubleshoot an Ultimate 70 that developed transformer issues not long after I bought it. Paired that piece with a Vision SLR preamp, and fucking WOW, good sound for the money, no doubt.
I bought a pair of Q150s here in Guatemala, they are the best speakers I have had so far! How immersive the music sounds, the bass and the brights, simply awesome.
Custom drivers developed in house, Diamond tweeters, metal dome tweeters with carbon fiber and aluminum rings, carbon dome tweeters, tweeter and midrange housing shapes that cancel out internal modes, foam compression tweeter surrounds, floating drivers to decouple from cabinet, cutting edge fst midrange, usage of inert Marlan, unique woofer cone shape, developed own synthetic woven material for midrange...
None of that seems to really translate to good performance though and mostly comes off as marketing fluff.
Like what on earth is going on with this response? What's the point of all that R&D and exotic materials when you can't even get on axis response right? Idk about you but I don't really like my speakers to have a bunch of ~10db peaks through the mid range and treble.
https://www.stereophile.com/images/0324-BW801fig3-600.jpg
B&W has made flat speakers, even previous gens of that line were flatter, so clearly they made a decision to go for a certain signature to the sound. The peaks are more like +-5db [when the response is summed](https://www.stereophile.com/images/0324-BW801fig4-600.jpg), not 10db.
If you just compare the frequency charts between the CM10s and the current 702s, you would think they took a step back. I thought so. Then I heard them in person and its clear they've made significant improvements to the drivers even if the response isnt as flat. Same with the 705. They pumped up the air, but the reason they can do that is that theres 0 metalic zing/ringing to the drivers now. People need to stop judging speakers solely on charts.
>The peaks are more like +-5db
That's still kinda bad by my standards and I would find such issues to be quite annoying and call attention to themselves. +5db is kind of a lot, and having them at 1.5k, 3.5k, and 10k are probably some of the worst spots to have peaking in the response. I'd wager the speaker in question would fatigue most listeners fairly quickly once the impression of "fake detail" of those boosted regions wears off. Even deviations of 1db in these regions is enough to shift the tonal balance of the speaker. This becomes very apparent if one ever chooses to attempt to design a speakers crossover, small changes can make a very big difference. 5db would generally be considered a huge change.
I'm not going to say that my speaker design goals are what everyone wants or the best, but they are at least consistent. I like neutral and good dispersion as with everything I've tried, it consistently sound the best to me and other crazy(speaker builders) and non-crazy audio people I've had over to listen. B&W and some other manufacturers confused me because I see little consistency in what they do. Dispersion and response varies widely between product lines to the point that I'm not really sure what they're going for half the time.
>If you just compare the frequency charts between the CM10s and the current 702s, you would think they took a step back.
Both of those look pretty poor IMO.
>Same with the 705
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/b-w-705-signature-measurements-stereophile.17845/
It appears they made that model worse in every regard. They reduced bass extension, added a HF shelf, and made the dispersion worse. The older models dispersion is actually pretty impressive for a two way with no waveguide.
>They pumped up the air, but the reason they can do that is that theres 0 metalic zing/ringing to the drivers now.
Here's the thing about the the fancy driver materials and break up and all that. It doesn't matter. In regards to break up and driver decay, if a tweeter had break up in the pass band, don't use it. If it's outside of audible range, you can't hear it. For a woofer, filter it out, if you can't you should just use a different driver. Drivers with some of the lowest decay out there cost like $25-50. You simply cannot hear the many of the silly properties that manufacturers claim their driver materials provide. What people mostly hear is crossover integration, room reflections,spl , bass extension, magnitude response, differences in dispersion, etc... and none of it's related to the diamond tweeter dome or the bamboo or w/e cones.
They are made for more than nearfield listening. Their site has a guide to show you ideal distances from the speakers and most are over 5 meters. Just find the in-room performance pdf on their site.
Ultimately, almost all brands concede to some kind of audiophile narrative, however there are players that maintain a solid technical foundation:
* Purifi (OEM);
* Hypex (OEM);
* KEF (would def consider their high-end models);
* Elac (although they sell some $$$ cables and super-tweeters);
* Benchmark Media;
* Prism Sound (they manufacture both gear and audio analyzers);
* Weiss (although I am not so sure they are so impeccable after seing the entire ASR drama);
* Opera Loudspeakers (not a big, but an example of excellent engineering and manufacturing from Italy).
I’m planning on a VTV or Buckeye Purifi or Ncore amp next. I just snagged an open-box Topping Pre90 as a preamp. My dream pre is a Benchmark LA4, but that price tag (ouch).
A used RME DAC is also on the way. I’m excited to compare it to my older Burson DAC
I used to sell HiFi and for speakers it was Paradigm Reference, B&W and Magnaplanar that impressed me.
Electronics I would have to say Krell, McIntosh and Musical Fidelity were what impressed me.
I don’t believe there is any of the pricier brands that are “worth,” it in pure quality/performance terms.
For example, in 2006ish, I bought a pair of Athena Technologies Audition BS1 Bookshelf speakers and their P300 subwoofer. They were $500 at the time. They had great reviews from the sources I trust and they sound incredible. I’m still using them to this day. I could have bought whatever B&W, Revel, etc was available at the time and I did audition them seriously. The Athena’s simply sounded better to my ears in my room.
Now, I am an objectivist, to a point, but in the real world, audio perception is subjective and things like aesthetics are important too. I have no problem with expensive things that look nice. I carry a Louis Vuitton messenger bag, lol. I just dropped $1500 on a pair of LS50 metas! I know I could have had a much cheaper messenger bag that would have done the job. I know there are probably speakers just as good or even better than the KEF, for less money. Those purchases were driven by aesthetics as a primary concern and I don’t think I was ripped off or bought “snake oil.”
There is a line though. Are Mark Levinson products worth their large price tag? I don’t think so, not on pure quality/performance. Aesthetically? Not for me. Seems to me Levinson is trying to say his stuff is somehow different, which seems a bit delusional.
Accurate audio reproduction, as is often said, is a solved science at this point. I can reproduce all the functions of Levinson’s No5805 integrated amp for less than one tenth of its retail price. The idea that the 5805 is “worth,” $10k as a piece of “quality engineering,” is subjective, for sure, but in my eyes, it’s certainly snake oil adjacent.
Accurate audio reproduction is far from being a solved science, the only claim some people (Class D amp fans)have is that amplification is a solved science.
Try to replicate the sound of a simple piano in your room with a stereo system accurately. It's near impossible even with the most complex and expensive systems.
Like you said this is a hobby, we buy things for different reasons, such as aesthetics or they type of bloom/distortion a tube amp may bring, but there is definitely a lot of time effort and money going into engineering at least some of that super high end stuff that is trying to bring the listener closer to the real accurate reproduction of a piano in your room.
Finding out which ones are worth our hard earned $$$ is the real challenge.
I play piano and guitar; I’ve been in plenty of intimate venues where live acoustic instruments are being played. My cheap little system gets pretty dang close. When I get up to reference volumes and listen to something well-recorded, like say *Kind of Blue*, all the instruments sound extremely realistic and present in the room.
There will never be 100% accurate sound reproduction. It is not available now at any price. When I say it’s solved, what I mean is that current technology is not capable of reproducing sound any better than what is now available and the highest degree of accuracy possible with current technology is available very cheaply. Redbook CD is as good as anyone needs, ample power is cheap and clean. Noise, jitter, THD, interference…solved. Any set of competent speakers and subs can reproduce the audio spectrum flatly. DSP and room treatment is easily in reach. I think we’ve hit the limit of what can be achieved.
Is some other tech waiting in the wings that will take us all the way there? I seriously doubt it, but would it even be worth it? If we are 80% of the way there now, is it worth spending at least 200% more for that last 20%. Maybe?
Sorry I don't agree at all. My daughter used to play the piano in our old house and we had a pretty high end system, not even close. The power and the decay of the notes are something else live. But happy to agree to disagree.
Needs and wants are different things as well. A Corolla has really solved the transport problem but people still want Ferraris.
Also the tech is usually evolutionary not revolutionary so maybe there is nothing around the corner, but there may be many small things built on top of one another to make audible differences.
One other thing, we have all had the advantage of trickle down tech in every aspect of our lives, including audio gear, so what starts only in a $100K DAC, usually finds it's way down to $1K DACs eventually.
Like I said, we will never replicate a live instrument through a few speakers, but we can get pretty dang close.
Wants are definitely just as valid as needs -assuming the needs are taken care of. I don’t begrudge anyone’s desire for a high-priced system that they love or have always wanted. What I do have an issue with is outlandish claims for the performance of audio systems.
And I definitely agree that cutting edge trickles down eventually. My main point is actually that we’ve been benefiting from trickle down innovation for so long in the audio reproduction realm that there really is nothing left to trickle down except for marginal improvements. High price no longer gives you significantly higher performance. A $100 DAC these days is just as good as a $1,000 or $10,000 DAC.
The only place there is any real room for argument in audiophila is subjective things such as a preference for a certain coloration in the sound, aesthetics, brand loyalty…
I am not an absolutist when it comes to the possibility of technological advances. Look at the advances in AI in the last 12 months. So I wouldn't say that there will never be a system that will be able to capture live sound, and I think that's what the R&D in the super high end is all about.
A very well implemented $100 DAC can sound as good as an all bling $10K DAC but, there are expensive DACs that when you listen you realize where the extra $$ went, are they 100x better? Of course not, the law of diminishing returns hits hard, but if you can afford it, you can buy the better product.
I agree that in this hobby there is no right or wrong, there are just different tastes, like you said colorations, aesthetics, pride of ownership, what we listen for, what kind of music we listen to, and unfortunately what our preconceptions are. All of them play a part in our decisions.
I have been an audiophile since I was a kid and didn't even know it, I love this hobby and chatting to good people like yourself.
Cheers.
Parasound
Musical Fidelity
Triad speakers
Coastal Source
Focal is split personality - some stuff is insanely good, and some is just ok.
Paradigm, but only the top end stuff. I miss the days when MOST of their stuff was built in Canada.
All of the high end/prestige brands have grossly overpriced top of the line products. The more moderately priced, powered and featured equipment from these same manufacturers represents much better value and virtually the same sound quality.
Full disclosure I own mostly McIntosh - MC252, C45, MCD205 and MDA700. Thorens TD126 Mk. III, Ortofon OM40 and Joseph Audio RM33si.
Yeeeesh!!! This question opens a can of worms. Most people online don't even listen to gear. They just argue about gear and use "reviews" and measurements to back it up.
You have to answer this question for yourself. Get out there. Listen to stuff. Go to live shows to train your ears. It's even better if you play an instrument. Subjectivity is a real thing you're the one listening to your speakers. Not the strangers online.
Or buy gear which measures well on ASR to get approval from the internet. Yes, I find this silly. You'll most likely land on active studio monitors with built in sound processing. You're basically a moron if you buy anything else, says the internet.
At one point I did a direct comparison between it, a parasound stack (2125v2 amp, 2100 pre) and my current Bryston b135 cubed integrated. It sounded better than the parasound stack and while not to the Bryston level it still held its own ($500 CAD vs $9000 CAD for the Bryston)
Heard their system at an audio show. Amazing. I could have sat there all day. I asked if I could buy the logo rug and even that was out of my price range.
If you want solid state, Pass Labs. If you want Japanese solid state, Accuphase. If you want tube stuff, answer is all over the place.
I personally sold my class A Pass Labs amp because it drew 200w at idle and was a space heater. I kept the Nelson Pass designed class A preamp and paired it with two stereo amps from Apollon which are based on the Hypex NCx500 chipset.
No regrets.
Got my first pair of nice speakers about six months ago—Fyne Audio F501s. They are certainly “budget” considering all the more expensive options out there, but I’ve been really happy with them in my space.
I don’t know about pricier, but I do know that it took me a long while to get here and I’m very happy with my setup: rega planar 10, Sutherland little loco, benchmark pre and powers, powers in bridged mode, Sonus Faber Amati Homage. Not popular brands but I really like what pours out of my set up.
He carries no weight with me. He sold his name how many decades ago? He's just mad because he's only a footnote now. Of all of the ML gear out there. What percentage was made by him? Probably single digits for sure.
I'll add Naim. Their kit is fairly pricey but it sounds great, is usually incrementally upgradable (with noticeable gains), and is really well built.
This stuff lasts forever and there is still a good market for '90s kit on ebay
From my own personal experience, I would say Wilson audio, and McIntosh would be the two standouts. I’ve never heard a Wilson speaker that didn’t absolutely floor me with how good it sounds, and I fairly regularly see people upgrade to Wilson’s from other high end speaker brands.
Wilson’s sound quality and build quality is unquestionable (even if their looks are polarizing on a good day) and in the high end world, I’d even go as far as to say they are very good value compared to many other high end speakers.
As for McIntosh, I know a lot of people are saying you can get better sounding amps for less, but I’ve yet to experience that first hand. I’ve listened to michi, rotel (same company as michi), arcam, marantz, and mark Levinson amplifiers, but never heard any that sonically impressed me as much as McIntosh. Mark levinson I would personally say is very much equal in terms of sound quality and build quality to McIntosh, but all of their products are more expensive for comparable performance.
A big part for me personally, is their product support, it’s part of what caused me to buy a McIntosh amplifier over many other reputable brands. Not many other brands can claim to have parts and labor support for models going back to the 1970s. One of my older friends had some McIntosh gear from the mid 70s that had been sitting for a long time and decided to repair it and get back into this hobby. He was able to get both units refurbished and repaired and now they operate perfectly. Not to mention them being one of the few high end amplifier companies who makes multichannel amplifiers for home theater applications (Mc303,Mc255,Mc257)
Check out how the amplifier etc ACTUALLY performs by visiting an objectivist site such as Audioscience Review that does bench tests. Do NOT believe some creative writer from TAS or Stereophile…
If you want to avoid paying for potential fairy dust, shop by the quality of the warranty.
Lots of high end stuff, if it breaks, the designer has to machine a special screwdriver to open this one part, and you will be single and old by the time the unit returns to you, for a 10k diode replacement.
Bryston has the warranty angle locked up I think. Because yes, with many brands you are paying for the name. And the customer service is not that good often! You have the name, you want service too?
Another angle is to find a high end brand that has an affordable range, and just keep buying that. Make sure the company is not just trading on their name. Magnepan speakers are of consistent value from top of range to bottom, and their cheapest speaker is always affordable to simply replace if needed.
Genelec. The price tag seems steep but the quality is great. But like any speaker you have to like the sound they produce. I personally love it so it was a no brainer
This next is not such a stretch, but i have to give a shout out to Lector. Small company, no-nonsense attitude. Great components. Minimal design. I have had and currently use few components and i’m in love with them
I really like Nad and Paradigm. I'm a bit biased because I'm Canadian. But I do find their kit is priced really good for audiophile grade audio. Plus still made in Canada.
PS Audio has a great reputation and their gear is superb.
Technics has high value products as well as one really spendy turntable.
Denafrips is high value with superb sound quality.
Holo Audio
Mola, Mola is pricey but offers world class sound few brands can equal, regardless of price.
Mobile Fidelity Electronics are superb performers and high value.
Hagerman Audio Labs audio products offer high-end sound and reasonable prices.
Parasound's Halo line is some of the best gear available but without the ridiculous prices.
Magnepan loudspeakers are bargain priced but less so after recent significant price increases.
Coda Electronics offer world-class sound that costs less than most.
ATI Amp (Amplifier Technologies, Inc.) Signature Series and Digital Series (ncore)
Black Ice Audio
Galion Audio (new and top shelf sound quality)
Grado Labs
Prima Luna
Dynavector
Ortofon
Most loudspeaker brands have priced themselves out of the hands of mere mortals.
ScanSpeak and Seas drivers and kits are superb. Speakers made using their drivers, not so much.
SB Acoustics kits and drivers, including their Satori line.
Parasound comes to mind. They do a great job of managing a product line with an approachable entry point while still making some truly high end stuff that still manages to pack a lot of value.
As for speakers. . . Ohm, Magnepan, Martin Logan, Sonys Faber, KEF, Fyne and possibly SVS all seem to do a nice job of offering good value across a wide price range
Linn … space optimization works really well for real life spaces where we simply can’t do room treatment. You can spend the earth but even at the lower end the music sings, or plays, or whatever the best phrase is.
And B&W speakers. Upgraded through to the diamonds and am supremely happy.
But it all must be tried at home. I tried a pair of focal at home and they just didn’t work … I so wanted them to but they just mumbled and then shouted … not enjoyable at all.
Depends what you want out of it if it's just sound quality get the amp which has the features and inputs you need.
If you want a famous name just because well yer it's gonna cost you.
A 1000 dollar amp is going to sound the same as a 10k amp unless you have a room the size of a hall and need to play at 120 db+.
As with everything you pay the privledge of the name rather than any sonic improvement.
I have a Luxman 507z so obviously I’m going to say Luxman. I love it. It sounds much better than my FIL’s McIntosh MA12000 to my ears. Something about that pure Luxman house sound.
For speakers, Aerial Acoustics don’t get enough love. I absolutely adore my 5t’s.
Paradigm! Have had the Studio 100 v.3 for a while, and couldn't resist picking up the Signature S6 V2 recently on a deal... both incredible pairs of speakers.
Krell, Dynaudio, Morel, Kestrel, Wilson Audio, B&W to name a few.
Most of the people making claims about McIntosh are people who’ve never used McIntosh cuz it’s out of their price range. I was a McIntosh dealer for almost 25 years and can say they were worth every penny… even their car gear
Quad are reasonably priced, sound good, well built and can be serviced relatively easily in the UK. I know they are Chinese now but some of their new stuff I have purchased is still well built and their old stuff I have lasts for ever.
All my electronics are Naim, my turntable is Rega and my Speakers are PMC. All fantastic British brands, all made here in England.
Some of Naim's products are verging on the lifestyle side of things, but their core offering is very much audiophile focused.
Approximately perfect sound quality costs a less than 10 thousand bucks for stereo speaker system (total system!), when using objective criteria for determining quality. For typical barely treated listening room, good enough speaker pair that is performance-matched with the room is around 400 bucks and likely even below. These prices are for active speakers, so we don't have to consider amplifiers or anything else.
If these prices seem low to you, well, that is what the data about sound quality says. If you think best speaker in the world got to cost hundreds of thousands, you aren't calibrated with what the data says, and likely have no idea what rooms do to sound.
Additionally, if you want to go cheaper than few hundred bucks, headphones are a great option. Many an IEM has been designed and these days many of them have frequency response that is decent approximation of some Harman curve or another. They are only few dB different for most part, so don't have to care very much which one. Cheapest of these cost like 20 bucks, and basic amplification to drive them is with the Apple's USB-C 3.5mm headphone jack adapter, which is actually a mini USB audio soundcard. So perfectly fine sound playback can be had for some 30-40 bucks, I suppose. Gets rid of the room at the same time, of course, for better and worse.
The more money and effort the manufacturer puts into the aesthetic finish, the less money and effort they are putting into audio engineering and sound quality.
99 times out of 100, the answer will be whatever that person has in their possession! And therefore I will say Dynaudio’s Confidence speakers are excellent.
I own zero Dynaudio and I agree.
Never heard a bad Dynaudio! I myself have Revel Performa3 and love 'em
Which Performa3? (I just ordered a set of M106's and waiting for them to arrive)
I have the f208. I hope you enjoy the M106!
I have M16's already and love those. Not sure if the M106 will be a noticeable upgrade or not, but I hope so! These are likely my endgame speakers if they are even a tiny bit better than the M16's.
I absolutely love my m106's, I've had them for about 6 months now. Previous speakers were the Elac debut b6.2's, which I still use in a second system.
I currently have M16's which I love their sound, but not the glossy black look so much. The M106's are glossy walnut, which I like better. Hopefully there will be at least a minor upgrade in sound quality, but I'm very excited. Even if they only sound as good as the M16's, they are likely my endgame speakers.
I knew them as dream studio monitors back 20 years ago, and now I’ve got the 20s (so the “cheapest” of the confidence range) at home and they are really really good.
Used to love them. Then I got Xeno 4 with good discount and really enjoy them. Fast forward a year or so and the connect box died. No other way to connect the speaker to streamer. End up with 2 door stopper. Talked to the support and they have no solution 😭
DM me - I’m a Dynaudio dealer and I’ll be happy to take care of you at cost if it’s possible.
After the cabinet was damaged on my Dynaudios, they refused to send an empty replacement one to my dealer. For the amount of money I spent on it I should have been able to get spare parts.
O own the Dynaudio Confidence 3 (the older series made from 1994 to 2002) and moved to less expensive Morel Octaves and I won't go back. The Morels have a way more open sound. The Confidences only exceed them in bass quality and quantity but even there I believe it's a matter of preference.
I don’t presently have any Dynaudio, but it’s a brand I regularly have in my collection. Luxman is my other vote.
[удалено]
What’s not to love about a 20-year warranty?
They will service your Bryston for free , even beyond 20 years, even if you are the 10 th owner
Mark Levinson post?
https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/s/KVOBGDHqgD
Thanks. ML made a ton of money and (I understand) sound by singer in NY bankrolled it. And he sold ML to Madrigal (who later sold it to Harman). Further he had John Curl and John Coagliano (please correct my spelling) do the engineering. Please leave the stage ML.
Life is full of great marketers. Ever hear of Steve Jobs?
Agree 100%.
And he was married to Kim Cattrall from 1998 to 2004.
Passlabs.
Pass is what I was going to say also.
I might be biased as I have a Passlabs amp, but man I love the thing.
Pass was my first thought, too!
+1. Build quality, resale value, and service deserve mention in addition to sound quality
You should never pass on a Pass.
Is there anybody better for the same money? Probably not.
It's not a matter of being "better" rather than "more suitable to one's own subjective taste". Pass uses distortion in an "euphonic" way, while other designers (Benchmark Media, Hypex, Purifi or Quad back in the days of Peter Walker) try to achieve maximal accuracy in the reproduced signal and hence reducing distortion to negligible levels. When two designs aim at different results, there canot be absolute "better" or "worse".
This is a great reply! Nelson Pass doesn't hide the fact that many people like their music colored. The degree of coloration (or lack thereof) is what most disagree about.
Check out Coda....a very under the radar brand that's phenomenal. I believe at least one of the engineers was affiliated with Pass Labs in the past.
isn't it some uber cheap brand of like karaoke amps?
There could be a company with a similar name out there selling cheap stuff. The one I'm thinking about can be found at https://coda.cc/
Threshold, not Pass Labs.
Nord Acoustics / Apollon Audio
That’s apples and oranges. Pass designs and builds solid state class A or class AB amps. Nord and Apollon use third party class D modules. They might design their own input buffers, I’m not sure, but mostly they are amplifier integrators. Not saying they don’t sound great, I use a Boxem Purifi at home and love it, but they are not the same thing.
No, they aren't the same thing. They are better amplifiers.
Asked and answered, fair enough.
Not that I have found. Not even for a lot more money.
Audio Research
For those thinking AR is an easy decision, beware newer products produced in 2023 and 2024 as they are under new ownership after bankruptcy and things might change. They are still supporting all their old products, and MiUSA is pretty excellent! So definitely do not write them off.
with that name you'd better hope so
That would be my pick. Sounds great. Bulletproof.
Unironically, I’ve got some Mark Levinson stuff that I think is pretty nice.
Revel, genelec, neumann, benchmark. I'd happily spend my money on all of these brands. None of them are cheap, but their performance are exceptional. One thing they -all- these companies have in common is Engineering First. Benchmark: SOTA amps for $4k!? Too cheap & small box for audiophiles! If AHB2 was x3 as expensive, full-size chassi and weighted in at 50lbs then more audiophiles would be interested. Their LA4 pre-amp might be the most precise volume control, who the hell put a 256-step attenuator in an amp? Revel: Putting their owners group harman's research to use (JBL who's under the same ownership don't do this and has released several duds, l100 for example). Their speakers go through their famous double blind-test and all their speakers are produced according to the HK curve and measure close to perfect. Even their cheap stuff is really good. Genelec, Neumann: Excellent studio-monitors (without the added hifi-markup) with DSP. Even their expensive stuff give you high-end audio for "cheap" compared to main-stream hifi. Why not combine with a benchmark volume control?
> when there is a McIntosh stack posted, there's a slew of comments saying that you're paying for the name and VU meters, that there are better sounding amps for less Just want to point out that there is nothing wrong with paying extra for a name or VU meters. There is even nothing wrong with ***feeling*** like the music sounds better ***to you*** because of the gear you're using. The main thing I have an issue with is when people make recommendations to other people based on those gut feelings rather than attempting in a somewhat objective fashion to understand which things are actually improving the audio experience and which are not. Also, the reality is that above a certain price, there is not much stuff out there that outright sounds bad. Whether you prefer one $300K speaker over another $300K speaker, can largely be left up to subjective preference. If all you cared about was a perfect measuring speaker, you can buy a pair of Genelec 8361A for $10K and "win" this hobby. Same goes for amps. There are definitely amps out there that cost a fraction as much as McIntosh and measure better. Will you actually hear a difference in a controlled blind test? Almost certainly not.
I upgraded from my Emotiva amp *for the name and VU meters*. Currently running a Yamaha A-S3200, and yes, I know I'm getting the same sound as from the A-S1200 and cheaper amps, and yes, I did it because it's got the biggest VU meters of all the Yamahas (besides the M-5000). The **feeling** that you talk about is exactly why. Turning on the amp and seeing that glow gives me joy. When music plays and the needles dance, I feel like I can just settle in and enjoy the experience instead of just sitting there and stare off. It's almost like a ritual, and it's soothing as heck. Not everyone is going to have the same experience and that's fine. I am well aware that instead of spending McIntosh money on an amp, I could have just bought a Hypex/Purifi Class D in a box and been done with it. For what it's worth, I've had my KEF R3 Metas hooked up to an Emotiva BasX, NAD t778, NAD C 3050, TEAC AP-701, and a Denon AVR-X4800H. None of them have given me the inky black, imperceptible noise floor that the Yamaha does. Every single one of those had some hiss (C 3050 was the worst offender) and I had no idea it was the amplifier until I got the Yamaha.
Yamaha has always made solid equipment. The A-S line is sweet.
You enjoy the heck out of that amp, man! Enjoyment is what it's all about
This is the EXACT reason I got an S3200
Oh I don’t like hearing that about the NAD C3050. It’s on my radar
Ooof, sorry. I will say that the C 3050 was the first integrated I tried to upgrade from the Emotiva before moving on to the others listed. It was really disappointing to hear such loud buzzing. Keep in mind I was using it as a power amp by bypassing the onboard DAC. I think when I unplugged it from my Denon and tried the onboard DAC (like how most people would) it sounded fine, but that's not an acceptable outcome in my opinion. Really disappointing considering how well-regarded NAD gear is but from what I have read, they have a tendency to cheap out on internal components. I'm also still annoyed that they advertise swappable MDC modules on their receivers, and several years later still haven't released an HDMI 2.1 module despite promising it. Edit: also, one more red flag against the C 3050. When you turn it on, it takes literally 15-30 seconds to wake up before playing music. I don’t know why, but it’s a design feature. May not be a big deal for some people but I found it aggravating and unnecessary when literally every other amp I used wakes up immediately.
I never noticed my Nad’s delay time until I read this. I have been thinking of getting an Emotiva.
Whilst I could never afford it that amp is a thing of beauty. I get the exact same warm and fuzzy feelings smoking a J and staring at the tube glow of my Jolida 6802 amp, when I turn the lights down low, and have a toke at night and watch those 7 tubes glow it’s like watching a fireplace, I almost wish it had the levels so I could have a fireplace and a ritual dance 😂 The Jolida cost me about $1500 the sound is incredible for the cost
That’s the big issue in these forums. People crave other people’s opinion on what sounds good. Everyone needs to go out and listen to pieces before buying and stop asking other people what’s best.
That's true! Sadly, a lot of folks don't live within distance of a good hi-fi dealer. One thing I endorse is a no-worry in-home trial policy, like Benchmark does. Nothing beats hearing a potential new product in YOUR room with YOUR electronics and YOUR music.
So true, only 2 near me that are billed as retailers for something I am emotionally interested in (magnepan) but neither have any "In store".
It would be great if more manufactures offered trial periods for their products. I get it’s not ideal and I’d hate it if that resulted in hifi shops losing business (cause I fully support them). But it’s hard to make an informed buying decision without listening in your own environment.
I’ve had home trials of kit arranged by hifi shops before…
Funnily enough, I think that speakers are an area where there can be significant differences, not so much at $300k perhaps but at lower levels. I tend to think that most well designed pre’s and DACs sound the same. There’s been competitions saying the power amps all sound the same. But speakers are the interface to the real world. You’ve got to be happy with those. That said, to meet the OPs question and the top commenters point, I’ve got some second hand genelecs that I think sound excellent and were very good value for money.
Yeah, speakers absolutely sound different. My point was mainly that once you get outside of entry level pricing, speakers that are outright bad are pretty rare these days. So there is a large amount of subjectivity involved in your personal preference. You don't necessarily need to aim for the speaker that most closely adheres to Harman preference targets.
Yeah, I think that for speakers, once you get above £1-2k then they’re all pretty good, just depends what you prefer.
While I don't personally think Genelec is out there scamming people, I agree that they aren't necessarily best value for money. Neumann is already somewhat better, and generally competes 1:1 against it. But yeah, 2nd hand Genelecs are probably really solid. The speakers are reliable for daily professional use, and typically so well protected that as long as someone didn't poke the tweeters with needles or deliberately pour water inside them, they're almost certainly going to work and sound just the same as when new.
Yeah, Genelec kinda milks their position as the industry leader in this product segment, but not absurdly so. There are definitely other product segments where the perceived industry leader will charge 5-10X as much as their competitors who are as good but don't have the pedigree. I agree though that at the high end, Neumann monitors can be as good or slightly better in certain aspects. Though if you want a true point source, then you still might want to go with Genelec "The Ones". And in the budget range, Adam Audio and Kali Audio provide way more value than Genelec's entry level speakers at a given price point.
Exactly this my friend. This is a hobby not a contest. There is more to this hobby than measurements and SINAD. Distortion can be beautiful, tube glow or vu meter glow can make you feel happier and that is all that counts. Enjoy the music and enjoy your gear.
Revel. Bonus: if you’re looking for car audio gear, Audiofrog.
Accuphase and Luxman.
See accuophase is one of the brands I hear are overpriced more than any others. Sounds good to me ears but I'll never afford it
I own Luxman so obvious I choose that. Bryston would be a top pick. Jeff Rowland comes to mind.
Graham Slee Phono amps are amazing pieces of kit.
Concur. Great stuff and their free try at home program is great.
I bought a Reflex C to pair with my LP12 a few months ago, I demoed before purchase at the dealer so had no need to use the try at home program, but it’s a great idea. I also found the forums very helpful before deciding to purchase one. I think they’re a brand who really do put the music first.
Top actual proven performing brands would be KEF, Revel, and Genelec But for higher end very expensive stuff... I dunno, maybe Wisdom Audio, or Magico?
- Not yet mentioned: Magneplanar. If you have the space, really good, well engineered speakers, that are less expensive than many. - i do find Harbeth speakers offering value. They are not cheap, but at a local hifi show where I listen to them every year, I notice how much more natural the voices sound vs most much more expensive speakers at that show - Nad M-series. Very nicely made, and the purifi amp circuit in the M33 is very difficult to improve upon - Genelec active speakers. Expensive, but the deep engineering has its results - the prestigious top models of JBL including those monitor like ones for the japanese market. The savoir-faire is there - Line Magnetic. Excellent chinese tube amps, probably the best of the crop in China. You can put them against top western tube amps - Quad. Nowadays made in china (still engineered in UK), and they still offer well designed products that last - i may be an outlier here but I never had a bad experience listening to McIntosh on all kinds of speakers. One of the best systems I ever heard had Mc driving big Magneplanars that I mentioned above. Yes, you pay for prestige, but at least there is nothing wrong with the product.
In the market and love the design of Magneplanar / magnepan and trying to find some to listen to near me... what size room would be enough space? My most likely room is 19x22 or so which would be music and larger screen in the upstairs "media room"... else in a larger open living/dining/kitchen area... with less safety from Boston terrors...
It is important to give them enough space behind them, 1-2m at least. They are a dipole, radiating equally in opposite phase to the back. You need to play a bit with positioning to get the best bass (magneplanar bass is refined for music, but does lack slam for AV use)
So more breathing room behind as far as space concerns than front? I could easily do 1.5 maybe 2m, and sit mid room (L shape sofa), but sides would be slightly tighter since I couldn't have the panels blocking the screen... and I optimistically misremembered the room... 19'x13' or 5.8mx4m. Perhaps I have to reconsider my dream speakers...
It should be ok in that room. The 1.7 is already very good I think (I remember the older 1.5 being excellent) and a but less massive in the room. It is not exactly breathing room. The sound at the back will reflect bak on the wall and mix with the direct sound. Hence you need to experiment a bit with best position
Genelec. And I don't even own their stuff (yet). Genuinely some of the best stuff I've ever heard. I'd like to think emotiva too because that's mostly what I rock right now.
Magico
There is musically satisfying gear at every price point. It is entirely possible to together a stereo system that you enjoy using components that are considered low cost. Likewise, you can spend a lot of money on a stereo system that disappoints. You need to listen (to components when possible) to determine the type of sound signature you prefer. Once you know what type of sound you like (e.g. laid back, or more forward, more or less bass, more or less treble) then you can begin to choose components for how they make you feel. Maybe you like a cerebral presentation. Or maybe you like a more relaxed but emotional expression of the music. You will eventually form an idea of the sound signature you like along with how you want to feel about the music. Once you determine that you can decide what you want to spend and include any lifestyle considerations into your purchase. Audio is a fun hobby but you don’t want to rush your purchase decisions if you want to be happy in the long term. Don’t focus too much on brands. Lots of companies make good components. At all price ranges you can put together a system that you really like. Enjoy.
In order to buy audio gear that's ever increasing in price one has to believe that there's some mystical unattainable perfect sound and the technology continually advances in small stepts towards that. You can't sell common sense to a niche market where nonsense is revered. I don't think I'm able to find that interview I read a while back because I can't recall any specifics but the highlight was that one maker of "ultra high end" said something that sounded almost like trolling, think Star Trek flux capacitor kind of nonsense. To this day I have the suspcicion that they guy thought let's see how far we can crank up the bullshit generator and people still buy our stuff. I mean, remember this this is the hobby where Srajan Ebaen or whatever his name is wrote about some stickers you glue onto whatever piece of equipment and they improve the quantum something so music sounds better. The only advice I have for everyone is listen before you buy and stop reading any audio press now.
Well said. On that topic, I’m not sure of the overlap between computer geek and audiophile, but I enjoyed this LTT video of audiophile snake oil product reactions: [Audio Scams](https://youtu.be/JMAu_mCxoII?si=0OqoFwzAZTYpB2m1)
> I’m not sure of the overlap between computer geek and audiophile Interesting point and that's an intersting discussion on its own.
I have a McIntosh system and I love it. Sure it might not be the best bang for the buck but I love the way they look and they still sound awesome. McIntosh is what got me into the hobby in the first place. I saw them in an audio shop when I was a kid and I was immediately hooked they looked like nothing I’d ever seen. I knew that as soon as I could afford it I would get a McIntosh amp. It wasn’t until I was in college that I could finally afford one and it was an MC2125 which at the time was already 30 years old. Eventually sold it for a profit and upgraded to an MC7300. Sold that one for a profit as well and upgraded to a floor display MC302 which was a current model at the time. Still have the MC302 and I have no interest in replacing it. I know I could sell it and buy a pair of Benchmark AHB2s and run them in mono which would technically be higher quality but in my opinion there’s more to the hobby than just raw audio quality. You also have to be proud of what you own as well.
Speakers? My number 1 would be Vandersteen… Electronics? Bryston, and maybe audio note (but I haven’t listened to them much)
I bought a used Vandersteen subwoofer and it showed up with a rattle. I called Vandersteen tech support and left a message. I got a call back and the guy diagnosed the problem and asked me to send it in. At the end of the call I asked who I was speaking to and he said “Richard Vandersteen.” Mr Sony isn’t going to call me back.
That’s awesome! I was an aspiring speaker designer while in high school, and he was coming to do a dinner event at the hi fi shop I worked at, but unfortunately I had to go back to school so I didn’t make it… he actually took the time and called me just to tell me “don’t let them bullshit you, it’s all about waveform preservation” He really is a good guy that makes great speakers…
"Hello, this is Jeff Sony."
Richard Vandersteen is a living legend for a reason.
I would also put Parasound in this group…. And I’m sure there are a ton of small speakers brands that this applies to, just because it’s much more approachable in terms of productization…
Audio Note has an esteemed reputation. And prices to match.
Audio Note, but *not* Audio Note UK. People should know that the latter has nearly nothing to do with the former, which is reflected in both quality and pricing.
Ya, I mean I’ve always been super impressed, and they get a lot of press especially for not having the bells and whistles and VU meters of others… I’ve just not gotten the chance to critically listen in a space and with speakers I know…
Speakers: focal, sonus Faber, revel, Tyler acoustics Gear: McIntosh Yes. I’m biased as I have/had this stuff. Lolol
I would see McIntosh gear back in the early 70s and knew I would never be able to afford any. So I set my eyes on Marantz. I got a Marantz after college and still have it to this day. What an awesome machine. But along the way, I was able to afford a McIntosh. I recently scored a used MHA headphone amp and it makes me incredibly happy. It also sounds damn good.
I sell Focal, and it sounds terrific.
Down vote on Focal.
Audio by Van Alstine Frank and Mary are gems of people (you’ll likely talk to Frank himself if you call) and I find their products absolutely bang-for-buck in audiophile terms (still kinda pricy, but punches way above their weight).
Scrolled way too far to find AVA. Mary IS amazing. Got to meet and chat with her at AXPONA this year, that was a hoot. She and Larry helped me troubleshoot an Ultimate 70 that developed transformer issues not long after I bought it. Paired that piece with a Vision SLR preamp, and fucking WOW, good sound for the money, no doubt.
It's not super super high end but I just love Kef so much. Everything I've heard has been fantastic for the money.
Kef is big range. Blade meta are some serious speaker.
I bought a pair of Q150s here in Guatemala, they are the best speakers I have had so far! How immersive the music sounds, the bass and the brights, simply awesome.
Bowers & Wilkins. Actually does research and put new technologies into their speaker lines.
> and put new technologies into their speaker lines I'm not really seeing it tbh. I don't see much in the way of pattern control for instance.
Custom drivers developed in house, Diamond tweeters, metal dome tweeters with carbon fiber and aluminum rings, carbon dome tweeters, tweeter and midrange housing shapes that cancel out internal modes, foam compression tweeter surrounds, floating drivers to decouple from cabinet, cutting edge fst midrange, usage of inert Marlan, unique woofer cone shape, developed own synthetic woven material for midrange...
None of that seems to really translate to good performance though and mostly comes off as marketing fluff. Like what on earth is going on with this response? What's the point of all that R&D and exotic materials when you can't even get on axis response right? Idk about you but I don't really like my speakers to have a bunch of ~10db peaks through the mid range and treble. https://www.stereophile.com/images/0324-BW801fig3-600.jpg
B&W has made flat speakers, even previous gens of that line were flatter, so clearly they made a decision to go for a certain signature to the sound. The peaks are more like +-5db [when the response is summed](https://www.stereophile.com/images/0324-BW801fig4-600.jpg), not 10db. If you just compare the frequency charts between the CM10s and the current 702s, you would think they took a step back. I thought so. Then I heard them in person and its clear they've made significant improvements to the drivers even if the response isnt as flat. Same with the 705. They pumped up the air, but the reason they can do that is that theres 0 metalic zing/ringing to the drivers now. People need to stop judging speakers solely on charts.
>The peaks are more like +-5db That's still kinda bad by my standards and I would find such issues to be quite annoying and call attention to themselves. +5db is kind of a lot, and having them at 1.5k, 3.5k, and 10k are probably some of the worst spots to have peaking in the response. I'd wager the speaker in question would fatigue most listeners fairly quickly once the impression of "fake detail" of those boosted regions wears off. Even deviations of 1db in these regions is enough to shift the tonal balance of the speaker. This becomes very apparent if one ever chooses to attempt to design a speakers crossover, small changes can make a very big difference. 5db would generally be considered a huge change. I'm not going to say that my speaker design goals are what everyone wants or the best, but they are at least consistent. I like neutral and good dispersion as with everything I've tried, it consistently sound the best to me and other crazy(speaker builders) and non-crazy audio people I've had over to listen. B&W and some other manufacturers confused me because I see little consistency in what they do. Dispersion and response varies widely between product lines to the point that I'm not really sure what they're going for half the time. >If you just compare the frequency charts between the CM10s and the current 702s, you would think they took a step back. Both of those look pretty poor IMO. >Same with the 705 https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/b-w-705-signature-measurements-stereophile.17845/ It appears they made that model worse in every regard. They reduced bass extension, added a HF shelf, and made the dispersion worse. The older models dispersion is actually pretty impressive for a two way with no waveguide. >They pumped up the air, but the reason they can do that is that theres 0 metalic zing/ringing to the drivers now. Here's the thing about the the fancy driver materials and break up and all that. It doesn't matter. In regards to break up and driver decay, if a tweeter had break up in the pass band, don't use it. If it's outside of audible range, you can't hear it. For a woofer, filter it out, if you can't you should just use a different driver. Drivers with some of the lowest decay out there cost like $25-50. You simply cannot hear the many of the silly properties that manufacturers claim their driver materials provide. What people mostly hear is crossover integration, room reflections,spl , bass extension, magnitude response, differences in dispersion, etc... and none of it's related to the diamond tweeter dome or the bamboo or w/e cones.
What do you guys think of genelacs in small apartment living rooms ?
I use a pair of small genelecs connected to my computer via a jds element 3 dac/pre. They sound great!
Excellent idea. Genelecs would also be awesome in any room! They are made for near field listening so an apartment would be a great place for them.
They are made for more than nearfield listening. Their site has a guide to show you ideal distances from the speakers and most are over 5 meters. Just find the in-room performance pdf on their site.
Ultimately, almost all brands concede to some kind of audiophile narrative, however there are players that maintain a solid technical foundation: * Purifi (OEM); * Hypex (OEM); * KEF (would def consider their high-end models); * Elac (although they sell some $$$ cables and super-tweeters); * Benchmark Media; * Prism Sound (they manufacture both gear and audio analyzers); * Weiss (although I am not so sure they are so impeccable after seing the entire ASR drama); * Opera Loudspeakers (not a big, but an example of excellent engineering and manufacturing from Italy).
I’m planning on a VTV or Buckeye Purifi or Ncore amp next. I just snagged an open-box Topping Pre90 as a preamp. My dream pre is a Benchmark LA4, but that price tag (ouch). A used RME DAC is also on the way. I’m excited to compare it to my older Burson DAC
Bryston amps. Owned a 4B-SST for 20 years and it never missed a beat. And warranty finally ran out last month!
Haven't seen it mentioned much here but the British brand ProAc has just amazing value for money. Especially second hand.
I always buy Proacs they are amazing. One other less known brand is creek audio from UK.
I used to sell HiFi and for speakers it was Paradigm Reference, B&W and Magnaplanar that impressed me. Electronics I would have to say Krell, McIntosh and Musical Fidelity were what impressed me.
I don’t believe there is any of the pricier brands that are “worth,” it in pure quality/performance terms. For example, in 2006ish, I bought a pair of Athena Technologies Audition BS1 Bookshelf speakers and their P300 subwoofer. They were $500 at the time. They had great reviews from the sources I trust and they sound incredible. I’m still using them to this day. I could have bought whatever B&W, Revel, etc was available at the time and I did audition them seriously. The Athena’s simply sounded better to my ears in my room. Now, I am an objectivist, to a point, but in the real world, audio perception is subjective and things like aesthetics are important too. I have no problem with expensive things that look nice. I carry a Louis Vuitton messenger bag, lol. I just dropped $1500 on a pair of LS50 metas! I know I could have had a much cheaper messenger bag that would have done the job. I know there are probably speakers just as good or even better than the KEF, for less money. Those purchases were driven by aesthetics as a primary concern and I don’t think I was ripped off or bought “snake oil.” There is a line though. Are Mark Levinson products worth their large price tag? I don’t think so, not on pure quality/performance. Aesthetically? Not for me. Seems to me Levinson is trying to say his stuff is somehow different, which seems a bit delusional. Accurate audio reproduction, as is often said, is a solved science at this point. I can reproduce all the functions of Levinson’s No5805 integrated amp for less than one tenth of its retail price. The idea that the 5805 is “worth,” $10k as a piece of “quality engineering,” is subjective, for sure, but in my eyes, it’s certainly snake oil adjacent.
Accurate audio reproduction is far from being a solved science, the only claim some people (Class D amp fans)have is that amplification is a solved science. Try to replicate the sound of a simple piano in your room with a stereo system accurately. It's near impossible even with the most complex and expensive systems. Like you said this is a hobby, we buy things for different reasons, such as aesthetics or they type of bloom/distortion a tube amp may bring, but there is definitely a lot of time effort and money going into engineering at least some of that super high end stuff that is trying to bring the listener closer to the real accurate reproduction of a piano in your room. Finding out which ones are worth our hard earned $$$ is the real challenge.
I play piano and guitar; I’ve been in plenty of intimate venues where live acoustic instruments are being played. My cheap little system gets pretty dang close. When I get up to reference volumes and listen to something well-recorded, like say *Kind of Blue*, all the instruments sound extremely realistic and present in the room. There will never be 100% accurate sound reproduction. It is not available now at any price. When I say it’s solved, what I mean is that current technology is not capable of reproducing sound any better than what is now available and the highest degree of accuracy possible with current technology is available very cheaply. Redbook CD is as good as anyone needs, ample power is cheap and clean. Noise, jitter, THD, interference…solved. Any set of competent speakers and subs can reproduce the audio spectrum flatly. DSP and room treatment is easily in reach. I think we’ve hit the limit of what can be achieved. Is some other tech waiting in the wings that will take us all the way there? I seriously doubt it, but would it even be worth it? If we are 80% of the way there now, is it worth spending at least 200% more for that last 20%. Maybe?
Sorry I don't agree at all. My daughter used to play the piano in our old house and we had a pretty high end system, not even close. The power and the decay of the notes are something else live. But happy to agree to disagree. Needs and wants are different things as well. A Corolla has really solved the transport problem but people still want Ferraris. Also the tech is usually evolutionary not revolutionary so maybe there is nothing around the corner, but there may be many small things built on top of one another to make audible differences. One other thing, we have all had the advantage of trickle down tech in every aspect of our lives, including audio gear, so what starts only in a $100K DAC, usually finds it's way down to $1K DACs eventually.
Like I said, we will never replicate a live instrument through a few speakers, but we can get pretty dang close. Wants are definitely just as valid as needs -assuming the needs are taken care of. I don’t begrudge anyone’s desire for a high-priced system that they love or have always wanted. What I do have an issue with is outlandish claims for the performance of audio systems. And I definitely agree that cutting edge trickles down eventually. My main point is actually that we’ve been benefiting from trickle down innovation for so long in the audio reproduction realm that there really is nothing left to trickle down except for marginal improvements. High price no longer gives you significantly higher performance. A $100 DAC these days is just as good as a $1,000 or $10,000 DAC. The only place there is any real room for argument in audiophila is subjective things such as a preference for a certain coloration in the sound, aesthetics, brand loyalty…
I am not an absolutist when it comes to the possibility of technological advances. Look at the advances in AI in the last 12 months. So I wouldn't say that there will never be a system that will be able to capture live sound, and I think that's what the R&D in the super high end is all about. A very well implemented $100 DAC can sound as good as an all bling $10K DAC but, there are expensive DACs that when you listen you realize where the extra $$ went, are they 100x better? Of course not, the law of diminishing returns hits hard, but if you can afford it, you can buy the better product. I agree that in this hobby there is no right or wrong, there are just different tastes, like you said colorations, aesthetics, pride of ownership, what we listen for, what kind of music we listen to, and unfortunately what our preconceptions are. All of them play a part in our decisions. I have been an audiophile since I was a kid and didn't even know it, I love this hobby and chatting to good people like yourself. Cheers.
Parasound Musical Fidelity Triad speakers Coastal Source Focal is split personality - some stuff is insanely good, and some is just ok. Paradigm, but only the top end stuff. I miss the days when MOST of their stuff was built in Canada.
All of the high end/prestige brands have grossly overpriced top of the line products. The more moderately priced, powered and featured equipment from these same manufacturers represents much better value and virtually the same sound quality. Full disclosure I own mostly McIntosh - MC252, C45, MCD205 and MDA700. Thorens TD126 Mk. III, Ortofon OM40 and Joseph Audio RM33si.
Yeeeesh!!! This question opens a can of worms. Most people online don't even listen to gear. They just argue about gear and use "reviews" and measurements to back it up. You have to answer this question for yourself. Get out there. Listen to stuff. Go to live shows to train your ears. It's even better if you play an instrument. Subjectivity is a real thing you're the one listening to your speakers. Not the strangers online. Or buy gear which measures well on ASR to get approval from the internet. Yes, I find this silly. You'll most likely land on active studio monitors with built in sound processing. You're basically a moron if you buy anything else, says the internet.
As for amps NAD is probably my favorite. I have yet to come across an NAD amp that wasn’t great for its price.
The c316bee v2 is my go to recommendation for a budget first time audiophile type 2 channel amp. It's seriously good for the money.
Couldn’t agree more. It’s an easily overlooked integrated amp, but it sounds great for what it is.
At one point I did a direct comparison between it, a parasound stack (2125v2 amp, 2100 pre) and my current Bryston b135 cubed integrated. It sounded better than the parasound stack and while not to the Bryston level it still held its own ($500 CAD vs $9000 CAD for the Bryston)
My 3020 from 1980 is still giving me pleasure (my workshop system) … kept it as I have passed through several amps for my main system.
mbl
Heard their system at an audio show. Amazing. I could have sat there all day. I asked if I could buy the logo rug and even that was out of my price range.
If you want solid state, Pass Labs. If you want Japanese solid state, Accuphase. If you want tube stuff, answer is all over the place. I personally sold my class A Pass Labs amp because it drew 200w at idle and was a space heater. I kept the Nelson Pass designed class A preamp and paired it with two stereo amps from Apollon which are based on the Hypex NCx500 chipset. No regrets.
Luxman, Swiss watch build, film star looks and amazing sound.
Got my first pair of nice speakers about six months ago—Fyne Audio F501s. They are certainly “budget” considering all the more expensive options out there, but I’ve been really happy with them in my space.
I’m enjoying my second Rogers High Fidelity amp. Made in Massachusetts.
Audio Note. Only brand I've saved for. Not there yet, but almost.
Ayre, Bryston.
ATI is an excellent amp manufacturer
I don’t know about pricier, but I do know that it took me a long while to get here and I’m very happy with my setup: rega planar 10, Sutherland little loco, benchmark pre and powers, powers in bridged mode, Sonus Faber Amati Homage. Not popular brands but I really like what pours out of my set up.
He carries no weight with me. He sold his name how many decades ago? He's just mad because he's only a footnote now. Of all of the ML gear out there. What percentage was made by him? Probably single digits for sure.
I'll add Naim. Their kit is fairly pricey but it sounds great, is usually incrementally upgradable (with noticeable gains), and is really well built. This stuff lasts forever and there is still a good market for '90s kit on ebay
From my own personal experience, I would say Wilson audio, and McIntosh would be the two standouts. I’ve never heard a Wilson speaker that didn’t absolutely floor me with how good it sounds, and I fairly regularly see people upgrade to Wilson’s from other high end speaker brands. Wilson’s sound quality and build quality is unquestionable (even if their looks are polarizing on a good day) and in the high end world, I’d even go as far as to say they are very good value compared to many other high end speakers. As for McIntosh, I know a lot of people are saying you can get better sounding amps for less, but I’ve yet to experience that first hand. I’ve listened to michi, rotel (same company as michi), arcam, marantz, and mark Levinson amplifiers, but never heard any that sonically impressed me as much as McIntosh. Mark levinson I would personally say is very much equal in terms of sound quality and build quality to McIntosh, but all of their products are more expensive for comparable performance. A big part for me personally, is their product support, it’s part of what caused me to buy a McIntosh amplifier over many other reputable brands. Not many other brands can claim to have parts and labor support for models going back to the 1970s. One of my older friends had some McIntosh gear from the mid 70s that had been sitting for a long time and decided to repair it and get back into this hobby. He was able to get both units refurbished and repaired and now they operate perfectly. Not to mention them being one of the few high end amplifier companies who makes multichannel amplifiers for home theater applications (Mc303,Mc255,Mc257)
Check out how the amplifier etc ACTUALLY performs by visiting an objectivist site such as Audioscience Review that does bench tests. Do NOT believe some creative writer from TAS or Stereophile…
I like the McIntosh name and VU meters. It's worth it to me.
If you want to avoid paying for potential fairy dust, shop by the quality of the warranty. Lots of high end stuff, if it breaks, the designer has to machine a special screwdriver to open this one part, and you will be single and old by the time the unit returns to you, for a 10k diode replacement. Bryston has the warranty angle locked up I think. Because yes, with many brands you are paying for the name. And the customer service is not that good often! You have the name, you want service too? Another angle is to find a high end brand that has an affordable range, and just keep buying that. Make sure the company is not just trading on their name. Magnepan speakers are of consistent value from top of range to bottom, and their cheapest speaker is always affordable to simply replace if needed.
I like my ATI amps.
Bryston
Ascend Acoustics. Great sound. Great service. Upgradable. Great value.
Genelec. The price tag seems steep but the quality is great. But like any speaker you have to like the sound they produce. I personally love it so it was a no brainer This next is not such a stretch, but i have to give a shout out to Lector. Small company, no-nonsense attitude. Great components. Minimal design. I have had and currently use few components and i’m in love with them
dCS
KEF makes great speakers.
Technics turntables ie 1200 variations.
Quad, naim, cyrus
Magnepan for sure
I really like Nad and Paradigm. I'm a bit biased because I'm Canadian. But I do find their kit is priced really good for audiophile grade audio. Plus still made in Canada.
Ascend and Rythmik. To some extent RSL but they are quickly torching their reputation and momentum by underpricing and subsequently underproducing.
Dayton audio
PS Audio has a great reputation and their gear is superb. Technics has high value products as well as one really spendy turntable. Denafrips is high value with superb sound quality. Holo Audio Mola, Mola is pricey but offers world class sound few brands can equal, regardless of price. Mobile Fidelity Electronics are superb performers and high value. Hagerman Audio Labs audio products offer high-end sound and reasonable prices. Parasound's Halo line is some of the best gear available but without the ridiculous prices. Magnepan loudspeakers are bargain priced but less so after recent significant price increases. Coda Electronics offer world-class sound that costs less than most. ATI Amp (Amplifier Technologies, Inc.) Signature Series and Digital Series (ncore) Black Ice Audio Galion Audio (new and top shelf sound quality) Grado Labs Prima Luna Dynavector Ortofon Most loudspeaker brands have priced themselves out of the hands of mere mortals. ScanSpeak and Seas drivers and kits are superb. Speakers made using their drivers, not so much. SB Acoustics kits and drivers, including their Satori line.
Speakers: Von Schweikert, Devore, QLN, Sonus Faber, Focal, MBL Amps: Accuphase, Pass, Audionet, Audio Research, Air Tight, VAC, Mola, Gryphon DAC: Mola Tambaqui, Merason, EMM labs, Weiss, MSB
Esoteric, vtl, and Bryston.
Parasound comes to mind. They do a great job of managing a product line with an approachable entry point while still making some truly high end stuff that still manages to pack a lot of value. As for speakers. . . Ohm, Magnepan, Martin Logan, Sonys Faber, KEF, Fyne and possibly SVS all seem to do a nice job of offering good value across a wide price range
Herron, Decware, dehavilland yes Pass but I’d prefer point to point wiring, if possible.
I would like to know what the highest end equipment is with the worst resale value (or best if you are a buyer?). Any ideas?
Rotel / Michi
My rotel a12 and monitor audio bronze 2’s have me hooked on the same brands for life.
Linn … space optimization works really well for real life spaces where we simply can’t do room treatment. You can spend the earth but even at the lower end the music sings, or plays, or whatever the best phrase is. And B&W speakers. Upgraded through to the diamonds and am supremely happy. But it all must be tried at home. I tried a pair of focal at home and they just didn’t work … I so wanted them to but they just mumbled and then shouted … not enjoyable at all.
Depends what you want out of it if it's just sound quality get the amp which has the features and inputs you need. If you want a famous name just because well yer it's gonna cost you. A 1000 dollar amp is going to sound the same as a 10k amp unless you have a room the size of a hall and need to play at 120 db+. As with everything you pay the privledge of the name rather than any sonic improvement.
Seems like this has either ironically or unironically generated a list of over priced and gaudy audiophool products.
VTL makes products that are worth the money.
Rogue Audio
I have a Luxman 507z so obviously I’m going to say Luxman. I love it. It sounds much better than my FIL’s McIntosh MA12000 to my ears. Something about that pure Luxman house sound. For speakers, Aerial Acoustics don’t get enough love. I absolutely adore my 5t’s.
Paradigm! Have had the Studio 100 v.3 for a while, and couldn't resist picking up the Signature S6 V2 recently on a deal... both incredible pairs of speakers.
Krell, Dynaudio, Morel, Kestrel, Wilson Audio, B&W to name a few. Most of the people making claims about McIntosh are people who’ve never used McIntosh cuz it’s out of their price range. I was a McIntosh dealer for almost 25 years and can say they were worth every penny… even their car gear
Quad are reasonably priced, sound good, well built and can be serviced relatively easily in the UK. I know they are Chinese now but some of their new stuff I have purchased is still well built and their old stuff I have lasts for ever.
All my electronics are Naim, my turntable is Rega and my Speakers are PMC. All fantastic British brands, all made here in England. Some of Naim's products are verging on the lifestyle side of things, but their core offering is very much audiophile focused.
Pass Labs, Dynaudio, ATC, PMC, Benchmark, Grace Design, Apogee, Antelope Audio, ATI, Nord, Accuphase, Luxman, Apogee, Krell, Bryston, Rhythmik Audio, Koss, Revel, Silverline, Audio Research, Esoteric Audio, Primare, Conrad Johnson Lots more but I can't remember right now.
Approximately perfect sound quality costs a less than 10 thousand bucks for stereo speaker system (total system!), when using objective criteria for determining quality. For typical barely treated listening room, good enough speaker pair that is performance-matched with the room is around 400 bucks and likely even below. These prices are for active speakers, so we don't have to consider amplifiers or anything else. If these prices seem low to you, well, that is what the data about sound quality says. If you think best speaker in the world got to cost hundreds of thousands, you aren't calibrated with what the data says, and likely have no idea what rooms do to sound. Additionally, if you want to go cheaper than few hundred bucks, headphones are a great option. Many an IEM has been designed and these days many of them have frequency response that is decent approximation of some Harman curve or another. They are only few dB different for most part, so don't have to care very much which one. Cheapest of these cost like 20 bucks, and basic amplification to drive them is with the Apple's USB-C 3.5mm headphone jack adapter, which is actually a mini USB audio soundcard. So perfectly fine sound playback can be had for some 30-40 bucks, I suppose. Gets rid of the room at the same time, of course, for better and worse.
The more money and effort the manufacturer puts into the aesthetic finish, the less money and effort they are putting into audio engineering and sound quality.