Unfortunately it is a career limiting move, but you would not want to stay long term, at such a workplace with such poor policies in place.
100% send any emails back to your personal email. Include a quick timeline of when/what/result, and also summarise conversations that happened (transcripts).
If you lose your job, report it asap to discuss your options, because a few rights expire after a few months.
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Payroll manager here - fairwork specifically has protections in place to prevent employers from acting negatively in regards to an employee seeking their entitlements.
If you were to receive a reprisal/ performance management/ termination then your employer would not be acting in compliance with fairwork legislation.
Make sure you document what happened, who was involved, and make sure it's in writing.
If you do receive negative blowback, take the information to fairwork for investigation.
Hypothetically, what would happen if someone took their employer to fair work about retaliation? Would they just be told not to do it again or would there be some real benefit to the employee?
Mediation, if it's not solved there it goes before a tribunal. It comes pretty quickly out if the employer knows they are fucked and will offer settlement during mediation. Might need to get a lawyer for support, and will likely lose 20-30% of the settlement if you go with one that is no win no fee. But, it can be worth it to know youll get somehting
This is incorrect for the OP’s situation.
General protections applications (which includes ones regarding retaliation for seeking entitlements) go straight to the Federal Court if the dispute isn’t resolved at conciliation negotiations.
There is an option for referring the dispute to the Fair Work Commission (a tribunal, not a Court) for faster arbitration, but it requires mutual agreement of both sides, and employers almost never agree because the cost and time requirements of actual real litigation is enough to make playing a game of court-chicken a safe bet for employers.
The silver lining is that you can get costs awarded from the FCA, which is basically impossible in the Fair Work Commission (by design, since it means that most broke applicants are scared into a mediocre settlement by the choice of sinking costs into representation that eats into any outcome, or self-represent.
Overall, the system is not designed to produce just outcomes, and this comes from someone who works within it with experience on both sides of the employment relationship.
Depends what the specific complaint is. But yes generally you would figure out expected loss in wages and any other potential damages. I'm not a lawyer and only going off what I experienced.
As he said above it depends in the situation. For instance I'm about to start a wage recovery action for unpaid overtime. I have the hours that I should've been paid and currently basing them off the pay rate at the time but I need to seek advice on that.
The fair work website has a lot of information and small claims court is now a thing in Australia for damages up to $100 000.
Also the FCFCOA website has excellently laid out guides on how to apply and what forms you need if if ever gets to that level.
Yeah i decided not to follow my unpaid overtime because I wanted the organisation I was dealing with onside as I started contracting to them externally. But I had done wrongful dismissal a previous time with a different company and I calculated what my regular hours were for years and what they cut them down to over time to force me out and claimed the difference as damages.
You don't need a hypothetical. General Protections are well documented.
https://www.fwc.gov.au/job-loss-or-dismissal/dismissal-under-general-protections/about-general-protections/understand
Do the unfair dismissal protections apply to folks above the high income threshold?
It seems wild to me that such fundamental protections are taken away because of an arbitrary dollar value classed as high income (it's not even the too tax bracket)
https://www.fwc.gov.au/high-income-threshold
only if the employee is covered by a modern award or an enterprise agreement.
If you’re award and agreement-free (e.g practically all managerial and executive roles), the government expects you to be able to handle your own affairs without the Commission’s help (e.g generous severance packages or common law action), on the basis that such employees are generally commercially sophisticated (or so the assumption goes).
Thanks, mate. Appreciate the clarity on this. I'm not sure if I agree with the govt's justification as the power asymmetry between a non- executive employee vs. the organisation is simply insurmountable regardless of the individual's commercial sophistication.
The Fair Work system more or less pretends power and information asymmetry doesn’t exist for all employees*. It’s nothing new.
*it accounts for it sometimes on paper but in practice does very little to nothing to bridge the gap.
a mediocre settlement of 1-2 weeks pay, and sometimes 2-4 if you’ve got really good documentation and suffered actual loss. If it actually makes it to arbitration (exceedingly rare), 6 weeks pay is the median for dismissal-related applications.
It only gets much better if it’s a particularly absurd case where the employer has royally screwed up beyond all measure.
https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employment-conditions/when-businesses-change-owners/employee-entitlements-on-a-transfer-of-business
Per FairWork:
"When there is a transfer of business a new employer has to recognise an employee's service with the old employer when working out most of their entitlements, including:
sick and carer's leave
requests for flexible working arrangements
parental leave."
If this is a substantial liability - it may be worth getting independent representation for the employees.
Lol it won't happen in that modality.
Alot of that crap is very much out of touch with reality. It will likely happen in a passive aggressive way and accumulate it won't be substantial enough to bring up because they could plead ignorance. It's never this cut and dry type of action..
It really depends on the size of the company and how personally your boss takes things.
The larger the company, the less people care and the more your direct supervisor will just shrug at being corrected.
Who had the issue, HR/payroll or your manager?
If it was HR, your manager likely doesn't care, or hopefully annoyed at HR and is supportive of you.
If it's your manager, they are an arsehole, but doubt there will be much reprisal unless they are a psycho.
My attitude to this would be I don't want to work for a company/manager like this. There are good places to work and good managers. Try and find one and once you do you will find life is so much better.
Remind them in writing now, if the conversation wasnt logged so if they fire you you have paperwork to get compensation.
"While this matter is adequately resolved at this time, I'd like get this in writing that (series of events) for potential future reference by myself or interested third parties."
Cc your personal email so I can still access it if they terminate your work email.
Sends a clear message to let this slide and not try retaliation.
It depends. Is it a small business or a large one? My company just realised they had been breaching the award accidentally. Leadership have taken it on and are correcting it. No one is mad, it was a genuine mistake.
If it’s a small business and that money is coming out of your managers pocket directly, they may be a bit pissed off.
In short, yes.
There is a saying that encapsulates the thinking here succinctly
"Choose your battles, carefully"
The problem is your correct, the problem also is you are also correct in predicting you've now successfully attracted the eye of sauron. Not sure it's worth a days pay....but I would start looking for a new job.
Hey I think you’re being overly worried. I’m not sure if the inconvenience you’ve caused by seeking to be paid a days wage is something anyone will remember in a week. Companies sometimes have policies that don’t perfectly align with legal requirements, it’s not that uncommon to find yourself pointing that kind of thing out.
I saw the comment about why you took compassionate leave, I’m sorry. If anyone tried to make an issue out of that they would suffer tremendous reputation loss and no one would advise the company to make a big deal out of a situation like that.
Look for another job, sounds a like shit work place I don’t put up with crap like that and I don’t ask for time off for that, I just take it and tell them (as the Mandalorian states! This is the way!! If the boss denied it I would say fuck them.
Those bosses should be called out!!
Job is just a job! There is a million better places to work!
Death of a family member there is no excuse!!
Companies always hate being reminded there are laws they technically need to follow..
Make sure you get everything in writing and follow up conversations with emails summarising them
I had a mate who took a day off, after a long weekend, he was fired shortly after. He took them to fair work and after a 9 month debarkel and being jobless, was paid out for that 9 months and reinstated with his old job. When the employer put him under a supervisor and revoked his working from home rights, he told them that they were instructed to reinstate his old position, not a new one….
Even if they are technically legally wrong it doesn't matter cos you will be informally retaliated against and it will lead you to want to look for a new job anyway. No one can be fucked taking each other to court/tribunals.
If they’re smart, no it won’t have any reprisals. They may actually quietly thank you if you’ve exposed something that was an honest mistake in the policy.
Of course if someone is a vindictive prick it might cause blowback.
Just saying - I am a member of a trade union for this very reason. The collective is more powerful than the individual. In white collar most people think they are powerful as individuals. Which is precisely what they want you to think so they can screw you over one at a time
I had to do this recently, they made a mistake, I referred them to the legislation, they fixed it and we move on. There is absolutely no reason for you to be a target for one day of compassionate leave, unless it is just a bad workplace.
Depending on the higher ups, some will see this as a problem solving success on your behalf
Maybe a touch of gratitude won't go astray in ensuring that all the higher ups don't think poorly of you for it
If you’re working for a company where correcting a policy that violates the law leads to them “thinking poorly of you” that’s a seriously shitty company.
I’m not saying you’re wrong but I’m curious about what sorts of places would retaliate. Small companies?
Sorry for your loss OP, and sorry that it was accompanied by having your rights at work treated so casually by your employer.
A lot of replies are saying that you shouldn't bother to pursue anything if you are terminated or penalised in contravention of your rights later on. Those posters are right that those cases can be difficult, but those circumstances will never change if the law stays static, and action by plaintiffs and legislators is what changes standards of evidence and creates precedents. So consult a lawyer if and when those things happen, with a mind to pursuing action and know that if you do you can potentially be part of changing things for lots of people who are subject to retaliatory firings.
My brother in Christ, you have the most beautiful blackmail over that company. They admitted to breaking fairwork laws as part of their company policy, I’d just be trying to get an email trail of that and then they have two options; give you a raise/positional title or deal with fairwork
Did you have a sickie and not provide appropriate evidence such as medical certificate or statutory declaration etc? Employers have the right to refuse personal/sick leave if you fail to meet this process. End of the day, chucking a sickie seems to be a favourite hobby for some people, employers have the right to refuse paid sick leave or annual leave to be used for such absences. https://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/sick-and-carers-leave/paid-sick-and-carers-leave/notice-and-medical-certificates
Compassionate leave is a protected worker right. Workers may need to provide evidence to clarify it was a legitimate claim for legitimate family member as per this definition. If they refuse to pay, advise them that they have breached the fair work act and may be forced to get this rectified by the fair work ombudsman. They will face significant fines for such a breaches. https://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/compassionate-and-bereavement-leave
They would be stupid to fire you or take any adverse action against you for that, because they would get themselves a general protections claim.
https://www.fwc.gov.au/job-loss-or-dismissal/dismissal-under-general-protections/about-general-protections/understand
Before you are made redundant, be sure to tell your work colleagues or send a company wide email what the company did and what the law expects. It will burn the already burnt bridge with your company, but will help your coworkers in the future.
Before you are made redundant? Will happen sooner than expected...
Welcome to Albo's workplace. Your employer can find many things to bring about misconduct allegations. They are investigator, judge and jury. Unfair dismissal under Albo is a poor system. If eligible, and that is a big if, the average payout is 6 weeks.
R u ok?
Wtf does this have to do with politics in the first place, and secondly in what alternate universe is Labor workplace relations more favorable to employers than the LNP's?
I've consulted my crystal balls and I see you seeking jobs in the near future
Unfortunately it is a career limiting move, but you would not want to stay long term, at such a workplace with such poor policies in place. 100% send any emails back to your personal email. Include a quick timeline of when/what/result, and also summarise conversations that happened (transcripts). If you lose your job, report it asap to discuss your options, because a few rights expire after a few months.
21 days to be exact (this is to fairwork Victoria)
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Payroll manager here - fairwork specifically has protections in place to prevent employers from acting negatively in regards to an employee seeking their entitlements. If you were to receive a reprisal/ performance management/ termination then your employer would not be acting in compliance with fairwork legislation. Make sure you document what happened, who was involved, and make sure it's in writing. If you do receive negative blowback, take the information to fairwork for investigation.
Hypothetically, what would happen if someone took their employer to fair work about retaliation? Would they just be told not to do it again or would there be some real benefit to the employee?
Most likely nothing. Australia has a lot of regulations but mostly nil enforcement.
Mediation, if it's not solved there it goes before a tribunal. It comes pretty quickly out if the employer knows they are fucked and will offer settlement during mediation. Might need to get a lawyer for support, and will likely lose 20-30% of the settlement if you go with one that is no win no fee. But, it can be worth it to know youll get somehting
This is incorrect for the OP’s situation. General protections applications (which includes ones regarding retaliation for seeking entitlements) go straight to the Federal Court if the dispute isn’t resolved at conciliation negotiations. There is an option for referring the dispute to the Fair Work Commission (a tribunal, not a Court) for faster arbitration, but it requires mutual agreement of both sides, and employers almost never agree because the cost and time requirements of actual real litigation is enough to make playing a game of court-chicken a safe bet for employers. The silver lining is that you can get costs awarded from the FCA, which is basically impossible in the Fair Work Commission (by design, since it means that most broke applicants are scared into a mediocre settlement by the choice of sinking costs into representation that eats into any outcome, or self-represent. Overall, the system is not designed to produce just outcomes, and this comes from someone who works within it with experience on both sides of the employment relationship.
What’s a typical mediation? A percentage of salary lost or similar?
Check out the fair work website and there are plenty of no win no fee employment lawyers around
Depends what the specific complaint is. But yes generally you would figure out expected loss in wages and any other potential damages. I'm not a lawyer and only going off what I experienced.
How is wage loss calculated? Is it calculated to the point you get your next job, for a set period of time or what?
As he said above it depends in the situation. For instance I'm about to start a wage recovery action for unpaid overtime. I have the hours that I should've been paid and currently basing them off the pay rate at the time but I need to seek advice on that. The fair work website has a lot of information and small claims court is now a thing in Australia for damages up to $100 000. Also the FCFCOA website has excellently laid out guides on how to apply and what forms you need if if ever gets to that level.
Yeah i decided not to follow my unpaid overtime because I wanted the organisation I was dealing with onside as I started contracting to them externally. But I had done wrongful dismissal a previous time with a different company and I calculated what my regular hours were for years and what they cut them down to over time to force me out and claimed the difference as damages.
You don't need a hypothetical. General Protections are well documented. https://www.fwc.gov.au/job-loss-or-dismissal/dismissal-under-general-protections/about-general-protections/understand
Do the unfair dismissal protections apply to folks above the high income threshold? It seems wild to me that such fundamental protections are taken away because of an arbitrary dollar value classed as high income (it's not even the too tax bracket) https://www.fwc.gov.au/high-income-threshold
only if the employee is covered by a modern award or an enterprise agreement. If you’re award and agreement-free (e.g practically all managerial and executive roles), the government expects you to be able to handle your own affairs without the Commission’s help (e.g generous severance packages or common law action), on the basis that such employees are generally commercially sophisticated (or so the assumption goes).
Thanks, mate. Appreciate the clarity on this. I'm not sure if I agree with the govt's justification as the power asymmetry between a non- executive employee vs. the organisation is simply insurmountable regardless of the individual's commercial sophistication.
The Fair Work system more or less pretends power and information asymmetry doesn’t exist for all employees*. It’s nothing new. *it accounts for it sometimes on paper but in practice does very little to nothing to bridge the gap.
Look up altering the position of the employee to the employees prejudice
Nothing happens.
a mediocre settlement of 1-2 weeks pay, and sometimes 2-4 if you’ve got really good documentation and suffered actual loss. If it actually makes it to arbitration (exceedingly rare), 6 weeks pay is the median for dismissal-related applications. It only gets much better if it’s a particularly absurd case where the employer has royally screwed up beyond all measure.
[удалено]
https://www.fairwork.gov.au/employment-conditions/when-businesses-change-owners/employee-entitlements-on-a-transfer-of-business Per FairWork: "When there is a transfer of business a new employer has to recognise an employee's service with the old employer when working out most of their entitlements, including: sick and carer's leave requests for flexible working arrangements parental leave." If this is a substantial liability - it may be worth getting independent representation for the employees.
Lol it won't happen in that modality. Alot of that crap is very much out of touch with reality. It will likely happen in a passive aggressive way and accumulate it won't be substantial enough to bring up because they could plead ignorance. It's never this cut and dry type of action..
This is correct. Negative action of that kind is called adverse action - see sections 340 and 342 of the Fair Work Act.
It really depends on the size of the company and how personally your boss takes things. The larger the company, the less people care and the more your direct supervisor will just shrug at being corrected.
Who had the issue, HR/payroll or your manager? If it was HR, your manager likely doesn't care, or hopefully annoyed at HR and is supportive of you. If it's your manager, they are an arsehole, but doubt there will be much reprisal unless they are a psycho. My attitude to this would be I don't want to work for a company/manager like this. There are good places to work and good managers. Try and find one and once you do you will find life is so much better.
Remind them in writing now, if the conversation wasnt logged so if they fire you you have paperwork to get compensation. "While this matter is adequately resolved at this time, I'd like get this in writing that (series of events) for potential future reference by myself or interested third parties." Cc your personal email so I can still access it if they terminate your work email. Sends a clear message to let this slide and not try retaliation.
If you choose this route, Cc, in your personal email account so you don't need to go the freedom of information route
FOI would be necessary regardless.
It depends. Is it a small business or a large one? My company just realised they had been breaching the award accidentally. Leadership have taken it on and are correcting it. No one is mad, it was a genuine mistake. If it’s a small business and that money is coming out of your managers pocket directly, they may be a bit pissed off.
In short, yes. There is a saying that encapsulates the thinking here succinctly "Choose your battles, carefully" The problem is your correct, the problem also is you are also correct in predicting you've now successfully attracted the eye of sauron. Not sure it's worth a days pay....but I would start looking for a new job.
Don't think that cos of Fair Work Australia that I won't bully, harrass, or sack ya.
Hey I think you’re being overly worried. I’m not sure if the inconvenience you’ve caused by seeking to be paid a days wage is something anyone will remember in a week. Companies sometimes have policies that don’t perfectly align with legal requirements, it’s not that uncommon to find yourself pointing that kind of thing out. I saw the comment about why you took compassionate leave, I’m sorry. If anyone tried to make an issue out of that they would suffer tremendous reputation loss and no one would advise the company to make a big deal out of a situation like that.
Reprisals for this sort of thing also violates Fairwork Australia rules.
Target sighted...
So what was the reason for taking the day off?
Compassionate Leave
I’ve had this happen recently as well I’m so sorry. My employer has been great. What a bunch of cunts. Better off elsewhere anyway.
Compassionate leave for what though?
Death of a immediate family member
First, sorry for you loss. Second, you might need to provide some proof as shitty as that is.
I have provided proof to work already and have collected any and all documents I can to back it up
Fairwork mediation is probably your next step. They can’t “retaliate” against you, but it’s incredibly hard to prove.
They can “retaliate” against you and it will be incredibly hard to prove.
Look for another job, sounds a like shit work place I don’t put up with crap like that and I don’t ask for time off for that, I just take it and tell them (as the Mandalorian states! This is the way!! If the boss denied it I would say fuck them. Those bosses should be called out!! Job is just a job! There is a million better places to work! Death of a family member there is no excuse!!
He took the day off to attend little Cosette's funeral
I did the same and my hours were cut severely. But fk em! They shouldn’t get away with this shit.
Best get [reading](https://www.fwc.gov.au/benchbook/general-protections-benchbook), you're gonna need it
Companies always hate being reminded there are laws they technically need to follow.. Make sure you get everything in writing and follow up conversations with emails summarising them
I had a mate who took a day off, after a long weekend, he was fired shortly after. He took them to fair work and after a 9 month debarkel and being jobless, was paid out for that 9 months and reinstated with his old job. When the employer put him under a supervisor and revoked his working from home rights, he told them that they were instructed to reinstate his old position, not a new one….
In short - Yes
Even if they are technically legally wrong it doesn't matter cos you will be informally retaliated against and it will lead you to want to look for a new job anyway. No one can be fucked taking each other to court/tribunals.
If they’re smart, no it won’t have any reprisals. They may actually quietly thank you if you’ve exposed something that was an honest mistake in the policy. Of course if someone is a vindictive prick it might cause blowback.
Just saying - I am a member of a trade union for this very reason. The collective is more powerful than the individual. In white collar most people think they are powerful as individuals. Which is precisely what they want you to think so they can screw you over one at a time
I had to do this recently, they made a mistake, I referred them to the legislation, they fixed it and we move on. There is absolutely no reason for you to be a target for one day of compassionate leave, unless it is just a bad workplace.
Depending on the higher ups, some will see this as a problem solving success on your behalf Maybe a touch of gratitude won't go astray in ensuring that all the higher ups don't think poorly of you for it
If you’re working for a company where correcting a policy that violates the law leads to them “thinking poorly of you” that’s a seriously shitty company. I’m not saying you’re wrong but I’m curious about what sorts of places would retaliate. Small companies?
Maurice Blackburn
Sorry for your loss OP, and sorry that it was accompanied by having your rights at work treated so casually by your employer. A lot of replies are saying that you shouldn't bother to pursue anything if you are terminated or penalised in contravention of your rights later on. Those posters are right that those cases can be difficult, but those circumstances will never change if the law stays static, and action by plaintiffs and legislators is what changes standards of evidence and creates precedents. So consult a lawyer if and when those things happen, with a mind to pursuing action and know that if you do you can potentially be part of changing things for lots of people who are subject to retaliatory firings.
My brother in Christ, you have the most beautiful blackmail over that company. They admitted to breaking fairwork laws as part of their company policy, I’d just be trying to get an email trail of that and then they have two options; give you a raise/positional title or deal with fairwork
No one likes a dobber
Did you have a sickie and not provide appropriate evidence such as medical certificate or statutory declaration etc? Employers have the right to refuse personal/sick leave if you fail to meet this process. End of the day, chucking a sickie seems to be a favourite hobby for some people, employers have the right to refuse paid sick leave or annual leave to be used for such absences. https://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/sick-and-carers-leave/paid-sick-and-carers-leave/notice-and-medical-certificates
Nothing in the post suggests it’s the scenario you proposed. And your sickies = hobby viewpoint can get in the bin.
Compassionate Leave
Compassionate leave is a protected worker right. Workers may need to provide evidence to clarify it was a legitimate claim for legitimate family member as per this definition. If they refuse to pay, advise them that they have breached the fair work act and may be forced to get this rectified by the fair work ombudsman. They will face significant fines for such a breaches. https://www.fairwork.gov.au/leave/compassionate-and-bereavement-leave
They would be stupid to fire you or take any adverse action against you for that, because they would get themselves a general protections claim. https://www.fwc.gov.au/job-loss-or-dismissal/dismissal-under-general-protections/about-general-protections/understand
Why? There basically no downside to the business other than a small payout at worst.
Before you are made redundant, be sure to tell your work colleagues or send a company wide email what the company did and what the law expects. It will burn the already burnt bridge with your company, but will help your coworkers in the future. Before you are made redundant? Will happen sooner than expected...
Welcome to Albo's workplace. Your employer can find many things to bring about misconduct allegations. They are investigator, judge and jury. Unfair dismissal under Albo is a poor system. If eligible, and that is a big if, the average payout is 6 weeks.
R u ok? Wtf does this have to do with politics in the first place, and secondly in what alternate universe is Labor workplace relations more favorable to employers than the LNP's?
Australian 'Labor' Party informs.
Why would you do that? Did you gain epeen points? Always support your employer. If you see something, look the other way.
Why would a worker argue to be paid what they are legally owed? Must be a chronically online chud if you want to get paid