Despite ensuring you do everything well within your control, some asshole may do something entirely out of your control that kills you. Granted that happens in a car too, but you’re in a much better position to survive by being, effectively, in a metal cage - with airbags and a seatbelt. With a bike, you’re instantly at an incredible disadvantage. Inertia and the resulting physics overwhelming worsen your possible outcomes in the event of a collision or adverse weather/conditions. For example, the split-second decisions that only a fuckwit can make. E.g. sudden breaking, turning, complete stopping, not indicating etc. that your human reaction speed could never predict or react to.

Yep this. My last car was written off because a fuckwit ran a red light - and not just by a little bit. The lights had changed, the intersection was well clear before I even moved into it. So despite doing everything right and being a careful driver, I still ended up in the back of an ambulance. Had I been riding a motorbike, I would have likely been killed, or at best seriously injured

That very nearly happened to me today - someone ran a red (by several seconds) as I moved into an intersection. If they'd been 1/4 second slower to brake, I probably would've been hospitalised. If I had been on a bike, I'd likely be dead. No amount of protective gear or defensive riding will ultimately save you from the carelessness of the worst drivers on our roads.

A cabbie purposefully ran a red on me a few years ago, apparently to save himself a minute or two, I slammed my brakes and ended up t-boning him. No one was injured fortunately. Now if I was on a bike, I wouldn’t be here posting this comment.

As a motorcyclist you never ride through an intersection without checking all directions, even with a green light and other vehicles in front of you. Just because an intersection looks clear as you approach, doesn't mean that a rogue vehicle couldn't enter at the same moment as you.

half the countries on planet earth are ok with people driving thru for 3 seconds after a light has turned red lots of those people have immigrated to australia, they may play nice just to get a licence and then....

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Happens all the time in Japan. And they do it right in front of the cops. It's mind boggling.

And lots of people die on the roads of those countries

Bikes are much smaller than cars also and more difficult to spot. How frequently do you see cars somehow not notice the car beside them when commuting and go to merge into you? That is far more of a problem on a bike. Only that could also turn what would normally be a small collision into a deadly event.

A good motorcyclist will learn to predict if a car wants to merge before it does. The driver of the car will make unconscious minor movements at the moment they think they want to change lanes, before they even attempt moving over or indicating. A bit of training and you can learn to see this and move into a safer position with the fingwr at the ready on the horn in case they don't see you. Not arguing with you. Just thought I would provide some insight incase anyone is looking at getting a bike.

>Despite ensuring you do everything well within your control, some asshole may do something entirely out of your control that kills you. Exactly this. My brother-in-law was hit by a bus that ran a red light a couple of months ago in Sydney. It wasn't even a high-speed incident, but the way his head hit the ground rocked his brain so hard that he unfortunately died at the scene.

Pretty much what they teach you in your course, it’s not you that’s probably the issue It’s the other dumbfucks in the road who probably shouldn’t have a license

Yeah I've once seen someone in front of me on a freeway change lanes into where a motorbike is without looking. They tapped them with their car, the motorbike rider was lucky they didn't get knocked down, and the rider did absolutely nothing wrong in that situation.

The motorcyclist _did_ do something wrong. He/she rode in a position where the other car could get to them. You must always assume other cars are trying to kill you. I have seen someone use the car they were driving as a weapon and I myself have had someone drive a Ute with steel rebar sticking out left, right and over the back, sagging under its own weight, bouncing, try to snag me to pull me off (attempted murder?). I'm afraid to say that motorcyclist made a mistake. One day riding a bike would make you a _much_ better car driver. I started doing head checks before Lane changes after starting riding. xoxo

They did nothing illegal or inherently dangerous is what I mean. Just shows you have to be extra vigilant on the bike I guess.

Are scooters any safer than a motorcycle? Or by having your legs in front?

Nope. It’s the same. You’re safer in a car from that protective shell around you and your restraints and airbags, the scooter doesn’t provide any additional protection. You also can’t grip the scooter like you would a motorbike with your legs so they can feel less secure.

Ridden in identical circumstances I’d argue they are actually less safe. They are much less stable at speed and you can’t manoeuvre them as easily without the ability apply force to each side via you legs.

Also, besides being more likely to be high performing with ABS etc. you see nearly no scooter riders in full gear. Idk if it's just not a vibe for them, but I'd be shocked if you were wrong. I imagine it's difficult to control for factors like that in a safety study though.

Oh not this old chestnut! A _stationary_ motorcycle is unstable and will tend to fall over. A _rolling_ motorcycle can roll in a straight line for 100 m with no rider, then hit a fence, change course, and continue for another 100 m before stopping and falling over. It's highly stable and also highly maneuverable in the right hands.

Accident rate wise, they are substantially lower risk. But that's due to who rides them rather than anything fundamentally safer about the device.

Scooters are safer as per study

I'm in my 60s and had ridden bikes since I was 17. A bike is easily the quickest way to commute in a city. Speaking from experience most accidents are caused by the rider so LOTS of experience and awareness will minimise the risk. Gear is important but won't save you from impacts or crush injuries. Did I say make sure you are experienced before throwing yourself into peak hour traffic? Don't listen too much to people who say car drivers are out to get you. They aren't. They just don't see you as a threat so don't really "see" you. Ride as if you're invisible and you will live longer.

Used to commute daily, so often that my boss didn't even know I owned a car. This is the way. I would add that its only as dangerous as you wanna make it. A big difference in speed between you and other traffic will massively increase the risk. Don't hang around in blind spots, keep moving towards the front so you have clear vision of the road surface since things like manhole covers and road paint are crazy slippery in the rain. Keep an eye on your mirror if you're sitting at a stop light, ideally you'd be the second vehicle there and filter to the front. I also agree that car drivers aren't out to get you, they just don't notice you. They don't pull out in front of you out of malice, they just either didn't see you or misjudged your speed and distance. It's the absolute best way to deal with traffic. I can't stand being in a car in Sydney but on a bike it's a breeze.

This bloke rides. In traffic I like to go a bit faster than the four wheelers, otherwise there's a risk they'll just run over the top of you. Filtering is the way too.

I'm in my 50s and have ridden bikes since I was 20. Got into it for exactly the same reason as OP. I completely agree with u/obvs_typo - car drivers are not out to get you, but if there's a way they can f you up by just not realising you're there, they'll do it. Riding with this attitude does keep me safe, though there may be adverse psychological effects (including believing that cars are out to get you). In more than 30 years of riding in Sydney I've only come off my bike 3 times, and every single one of those was my fault. Mainly to to with getting agro with cars & letting my emotions override my common sense.

> In more than 30 years of riding in Sydney I've only come off my bike 3 times, and every single one of those was my fault. 17 years here and almost the same situation accident wise. Dropped the bike 3 times in the first 2 years of riding all because I didn't pay attention or over accelerated and turned etc. Had exactly one accident happen due to someone else years later and that was because a tradies eskie lid flew off during a storm and hit me square in the face flat side on. Probably would have recovered from the bike wobbling from that except it was the 3rd day of riding a brand new bike. Had plenty of people try and merge into me etc but as you say defensive riding attitude and not getting complacent goes a long way to staying safe.

Rode bikes for most of my young adult life, on the road from about 18 to 30 and prior to that dirt bikes on farms. I stopped when my daughter was born. This is all correct and good advice. Just remember: If you come off the bike you lose. You lose control over your direction, your speed, your destination. If you aren’t on two wheels and in control the ability to stay alive is no longer in your hands. Stay upright.

I have had my bike for 4 days now and I have to cross the city in a weeks time in peak hour to get to my Ps test. How fucked am i. I really only got the bike for short hops and easy parking at the beach.

If you treat riding as a commute and not a skill you need to improve on you're going to be another statistic. Riding is a get good or get fucked kind of game.

I’ve ridden motorcycles for 15 years with plenty of riding in busy cities (Sydney, Bris and Melbourne). The best advice I can think to give is absolutely leave your ego at home. Make sure you are checking what’s happening in lanes to your left and right and behind you and look further ahead than you would in a car. Don’t assume that cars will let you in or stop for you, if you see a car waiting to turn into your lane, be prepared for it to do so, regardless of who has right of way. Learn to be patient, don’t go around cars that are turning, don’t tailgate etc. Safe motorcycling is 100% about learning to read and predict traffic patterns around you.

This is the good advice and really that's safe road use in a nutshell no matter what your driving or riding.

Not too fucked. Allow enough time so you're not rushed and are focused on your ride. Or, go early to miss the worst and most hectic traffic so you're calm for your test. If you find yourself losing focus, pull over, rest and then resume riding when you're ready

Yeh I figure I will do that. Just head way early. I went for my first proper ride yesterday. Did fine. Before I have just been doing heaps of local driving, intersections, round abouts etc. This am I went and did some faster roads and bridges w 70kmh zones w no traffic and did fine. It's just the traffic that kind of freaks me. I have my route planned. Im not going to take freeways or tunnels. Will go tomorrow to test the route I plan.

It's the chaos of traffic that I find stressful. There are so many unpredictable and uncontrollable factors. Own your lane and be as visible and predictable as possible, but ride ready to run away from someone who hadn't seen you and seems like they're wanting to mow you down.

yup. im entitled to sit in the lane and hang back a bit (understanding that people will use the space I create as a buffer to change lanes on me) im not splitting or pushing to the front. Im in no rush.

Get an airbag jacket. They give a 90% reduction in neck and back injuries.

I’d recommend the book Proficient Motorcycling if you haven’t read it, it’s not everyone’s bag but from what you’ve described i think you’ll get a lot out of it.

If you're not comfortable in peak hour, you'll struggle to get your P's mate. Just relax and practice defensive riding.

Just haven't driven it. Only way to get comfortable is to get out and try.

I agree with everything you said with the exception of the last line. My recommendation is to do the opposite. Don't be invisible, be visible, ride where drivers expect to see a car. Just to the right of centre lane. If you do something a car can't then no one is expecting it so you have to be careful when you do to make sure you're noticed.

I think the key to the last line was "as if" you are invisible - ie thinking that they can't see you rather than making yourself invisible

Oh.. yeah if you read it that way it totally makes sense.. yes. Assume you're invisible and people will turn in front of you or into you or side swipe you at any moment

some (albeit rare) DH car drivers will deliberately physically grief mc riders esp when rider is lane splitting

> Ride as if you're invisible and you will live longer. As an eBike/cycle commuter in Sydney, this is how I approach it as well. My mindset is: *Cars can't see me, and they're also likely to do something stupid that may kill me, so ride accordingly*. I've been getting around the city by eBike for over three years now and haven't come close to any kind of accident. I'd also argue that eBikes are as good as motorbikes for getting around a city, with the benefit of being able to park anywhere and they don't make any noise!

> most accidents are caused by the rider You can't be serious can you? Unless you mean that riders aren't riding defensively enough, prepared for drivers to cut them off. More often than not, it's the driver who causes a collision between the two because a bike is harder to see. Of course there are idiot maniac riders, but careful riders are less likely to cause most accidents.

He is right. Most accidents on a motorbike are caused by the rider. In Sydney, Old Pacific Highway, it's a clear example. You are not wrong either, most accidents between a motorbike and a car are caused by the car. His advice is totally valid. If you ride defensively you can greatly reduce the risk. Accidents can happen but riding a motorbike, when done carefully, it's a great way to move around the city.

> Old Pacific Highway, it's a clear example. And that's exactly what I meant by idiot maniac riders. If you ride carefully, there's no reason to have an accident there. It's exactly because bikes are speed machines that can be ridden for the thrill of pushing them to the edge, and that's why they happen on windy roads like Old Pacific Highway. They weren't there for commuting, or they'd use the faster/shorter/safer motorway instead. If you want to be an idiot, most accidents are caused by the rider. I assume OP doesn't want to push it to the limits, and wants to commute, not thrill ride, so if he wants to ride carefully, then most accidents are not caused by the rider.

I'm not following you. The implied definition of "riding carefully" in this discussion is one where the outcome is that actual risk of injury is comparable to driving a car. Which is partly to say that, at that point, accidents aren't all that common. Given that, what exactly are you loading into the idea that "most accidents are not caused by the rider"? I can only imagine things that are totally impossible to account for or mitigate in any way which, by definition, are not going to be caused by the rider. But so what? That's part of the baseline risk of being a road user of any sort and doesn't really bare on the discussion.

> what exactly are you loading into the idea that "most accidents are not caused by the rider"? I mean the following: >64% of motorcycle fatalities involve another vehicle and the driver is usually at fault... >The 4 most frequent causes of motorcycle accidents involving another vehicle are: >1) Drivers fail to give way to a motorcycle >2) Drivers cut in front of, or across the path of a motorcycle at an intersection. >3) Drivers tailgate a motorcycle. >4) Drivers U-Turn in front of a motorcycle https://new.parliament.vic.gov.au/4ad66f/contentassets/0d7d2cf3121f481c824131a52ae143a3/mraa-handout-_-drivers-guide-to-motorcycle-awareness.pdf

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If it's not a collision with a car, then it would most likely be attributed to thrill riding. Like another commenter mentioned, Old Pacific Highway is a magnet for bikes. It's a windy road that provides thrills to bikers who like to push it to the limit. It's not for commuting which is OP's intention. There's a safer/faster/shorter motorway right next to the old highway. They go there for a thrill, and to have single vehicle accidents by running off the road on sharp corners. Like I said, there are idiot maniac riders, but careful riders are less likely to cause most accidents. They are most often caused by drivers not seeing the bikes, and that's why even careful riders have more accidents than drivers.

Agree with you. We may be reading the comment about most accidents caused by riders differently. I read that in total numbers. We make mistakes by ourselves and sometimes we get a bit (or a lot) reckless which causes accidents. When the accident involves more than one vehicle, a motorbike being involved, statistics tend to show it's more the car's fault. Going back to the initial question OP asked, my view is riding carefully and yes, making yourself as visible as you can is fine. Accidents can happen and riders are more exposed than car drivers. I have been riding motorbikes for more than 20 years. I had 3 accidents. 2 of them in the city (not in Sydney) and it was the car's fault. I saw them coming and bike had minimum damage. I was totally fine. Third time it was my fault 100%. Crashed alone going way faster than I should have been. Good part of it, I was on a track day and it was not that bad for me or the bike.

It’s not that hard to imagine? Four wheels more stable than two.

Mate I've been riding sports bikes for over 30 years and was a Sydney courier. While car drivers can be poor the standard of riding out there is worse than it's ever been. Poor situational awareness, riding in blind spots, filtering at speed, no gear you name it. Can't put it all on cars any more.

> Poor situational awareness, riding in blind spots, filtering at speed, no gear you name it. Can't put it all on cars any more. We're talking about the cause of accidents. From your list, it's only filtering accidents that may actually be blamed on bikes. Most safe riders wouldn't filter though. Blaming an accident on the gear they are wearing is ridiculous. Situational awareness is ambiguous, unless you're saying that it's the rider's fault for not preparing for drivers being stupid. Riding in blind spots is stupid, but it's not the bikes fault if a car fails to check. If a car rams a bike in their blind spot it is absolutely the fault of the driver, and they will be liable for the accident. If you're going to blame a bikie for being in a blind spot, then you may as well blame them for getting on a risky small machine that's hard to see in the first place. It's their fault for being on a bike instead of a car, and they should be prepared to yield to every car that doesn't look, or pulls out in front of them unexpectedly, from a side street.

I’m going with the generous interpretation that most accidents could have been avoided by the rider - regardless of fault. In my time, I’ve been hit by a few cars and in every one of them, there are things I could have done better. Also, single vehicle accidents make up a way higher percentage than you’d expect. Particularly when mixed with alcohol.

Its 40% so almost half of accidents you can chalk up to rider fault. I'm not blaming the riders I enjoy some backroad riding too but I leave that shit to places I know I'm less likely to run into another car and accept the risk of hurting myself.

This. I couldn't believe this statement.

>. They just don't see you as a threat so don't really "see" you. That's effectively being out to get you.

RiP Hershal: His last post aged 60 before being killed in a motorcycle accident 🥲

The issue is that no matter how careful you are, other people's actions are more likely to cause you to have an accident and you'll come off second best being on a bike. The stakes are lower using it as a commenter, not weekend rides but never zero. My friend stopped riding after she was coming home from work, car popped out from a side street into her path and she went over the hood, needed skin grafts on her lower leg. It's not the death trap a lot of people would have you believe but you will always carry a much higher level of risk, no matter how careful you are. I wish you safe and happy riding :)

https://fortnine.ca/en/how-dangerous-are-motorcycles https://youtu.be/5DZk0lzR3Wc?si=yZqN0WxN7qims5Ug Canadian stats but I’m assuming they won’t be too far removed from Australia. The summary is that most risk factors that contribute to fatal incidents can be controlled by the rider. If you don’t ride drunk, don’t speed excessively, do training courses, own a bike with ABS, and ride with gear, your risk is much more comparable to if you were in a car.

Most of those risk factors are obvious but I can’t overstate the importance of ABS. Almost all cars have ABS yet a lot of bikes still don’t if you’re buying used. Yet slightly locking the front wheel can put you on your side almost instantly. I wouldn’t ride without it any more.

Truth. You don't need it 99% of the time, but everyone should be able to panic brake and screw up without it costing them a broken bone. Traction control and lean-sensitive ABS are also good safety features, but often on more expensive/newer bikes. Could be $10k+.

From Nov 2019, all bikes must now come with ABS. Obviously wont apply to older bikes, but going forward it'll be something that just becomes the standard.

As it should be but why did it take 16 years after becoming mandatory on cars? I understand technology had to catch up and allow for systems to get small enough and cheap enough but it really should have happened sooner.

Your right, in an ideal world we would all be Casey stoner and brake better than abs could manage but when you really shit your pants ABS can be a life saver.

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Fully agree with this. I'd add well-rested, not too emotional, and "defensive" includes avoiding fancy manoeuvres like filtering through moving traffic or on narrow shoulders. When I'm in super-cautious-commuter mode, there are a lot of bikes doing the fancier (legal) manoeuvres and passing me. You won't save a lot of money, and if you also have a car, adding a bike for daily commuting will almost certainly be more expensive than just taking the car. It can also be a pain on short trips eg if the train station is nearby, gearing up/down at both ends, and you usually have to take some of your gear with you. But: it's still fun, very workable, and you can enjoy a weekend ride. I have bike + car at the moment and spent a good few years commuting on a variety of midsize and large bikes. Never had any major issues, worst thing was I mucked up my balance filtering and hit someone's door with my boot - we pulled over and they were pretty angry till they saw there was no mark.

>You won't save a lot of money, and if you also have a car, adding a bike for daily commuting will almost certainly be more expensive than just taking the car. ​ My commute is 1.5hrs each way, thats about 5$ worth of fuel for the bike, and about 10-15$ for the car. parking is free for the bike, for the car its 10$ per day if i can get good street parking, up to 80$ if i cant. Rego for the bike is 400 for a year, for my car it was 1200. Granted, my car is a V8 gas guzzler, and it sucks having to refill the bike after 2 trips into work. And dealing with all the gear. But it is definitely much cheaper for me at least. But i look forward to that 1.5 hour commute each morning, how many people driving cars look forward to their commute? maybe if i had free parking at work and had a much more efficient car it might bring the numbers a bit closer together. But for me right now using the bike is 1/4 the prices and 100x more enjoyable.

>fancy manoeuvres like filtering through moving traffic or on narrow shoulders. Both of which are illegal, for what it's worth. Lane filtering is between two lanes of stopped (not parked) traffic going the same direction, and you have to be under 20kph. And a bike + gear + rego + licence course comes out to less than a years or two of parking in some places. $15/d × 5d × 46wks^* = $3,450/yr * - 52 weeks, minus 4 weeks personal leave, 2 weeks public holidays

The risk is that motorbike riders only have to screw up once, while poor drivers in cars can screw up constantly without serious injury. That’s not even taking into account the risk from other drivers, My small car often doesn’t get seen by wankpanzers, let alone a much smaller profile on a bike.

>your risk is much more comparable to if you were in a car. Comparable to the average car? Or comparable to a sensible driver who doesn't do all the stuff you mentioned? Assuming OP is a sensible cautious guy, it would be best for him to compare like to like

Makes sense, but the stats still serve to show that most people that are dying on bikes could be avoiding it. A safe driver in a car will almost definitely be safer than on a bike, but I’d imagine the difference would be less than when comparing averages since there are more variables you can control on a bike.

I've have my motorbike license for about 15 years now. Mainly I used my bike to commute. In the late 00's and early 10's it was risky but doable. These days though? No fucking way. In my early days riding I'd have a near miss once or twice a year. Then I'd have them more and more often. When I stopped riding in 2020 it was like every other day someone would pull out in front of me. I personally blame mobile phones. So, so many people I see have their head down on their phone while driving, they are barely looking for other cars let alone motorbikes. I sold my last 'street legal' bike a few years ago, and I will probably never ride on public roads ever again, there's just too many distracted fuckwits on the road, and that number is only increasing. You can wear all the protective gear in the world, it's still not going to be enough if you're going 60+ kmh and you slam into the side of some fuckwits oversized SUV. You are going to break something, it is going to hurt, and your life will be changed forever. Also keep in mind bikes are not necessarily as cheap as you'd think. Assuming you're going to keep your car, with paying rego for an extra vehicle, the increased servicing requirements of highly-strung bike engines (compared to your average car anyway), unless you ride a lot (like when it's raining or very hot or very humid) you might not actually save that much money. Overall the risk to reward (in terms of monetary and time savings) is really not worth it. I'll repeat myself, there's just too many fuckwits on the roads.

In addition to this, "commuter" vehicles have been getting bigger and bigger. There's more mass on the average car now, their bumpers are higher Sure they're safer for the driver, but you'll not go up and over the bumper of a modern SUV like you might a 2006 family car

Ex ED nurse here. Most of the people I’ve seen to were responsible adults who were just unlucky that day. You might ride it everyday for 20years and nothing happens to you. The fact is, you are significantly more at risk of serious injury or death if things do happen. That fender bender you might have gotten once or twice as a commuter now carries a lot more risk if you’re a motorcyclist. So the choice is yours as to what you prioritise in life but just be mindful of the risk.

Wouldn't that also be true for driving a car?

True. But what I mean is a common minor mistake at low speeds (such as during commutes) by someone else or yourself in a car will get you dents, scratches and an insurance headache. As a motorcyclist that might mean life threatening or life changing injuries. The likelihood of survival or avoidance of catastrophic injuries is simply much better in a car.

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I personally don’t, however some of my colleagues do. I think it’s relatively rare to see many motorcycle enthusiasts among ED staff especially if they work in trauma centres.

Depends on your commute. If you’re mostly inner city on roads that are 40-60km/h you’re incredibly safe. I’ve been riding for 20 years without a problem. I live in Sydney’s east so most of my riding is less than 50km/h. I feel safest in slow heavy traffic in the city as even if you have an accident at those speeds, the damage is usually minimal. I ride a big Harley so it can take a bump without losing control. If you’re in the suburbs and thinking of riding it on 100km/h motorways, then you’re taking your life into your hands. I still get nervous on freeways.

That’s not true. I was t-boned in a 40 zone February this year inner city Melbourne I’m still in rehab after multiple fractures of pelvis and sacrum and head trauma - fucken furious this happened as I’ve lost a whole year to recover and still more rehab to come Drivers and mobile phones are so so dangerous I’ll never ride again. Not worth it - I was lucky it wasn’t worse

You really think the highway is dangerous? On 80-100k winding roads sure traffic can be unpredictable. But on a motorway its pretty easy to find your own space on a bike. You have to remember you are much more manouverable than anything around you and honestly fuck the speed limit if I have to go over or under to maintain a buffer of safety that's fine by me.

It’s just what I’m used to. Also, debris is terrifying at 100km/h

Traffic is a lot more predictable on a free flowing highway imo, there's less danger to look out for. I've seen 3 motorcyclists who have been taken out by cars in 60 zones this year, all near corners. The likelihoods are a lot worse city commuting imo, because there's a lot less in your control and a lot more to factor in, but also I've had a prang at 60 and walked away, which isn't happening at 100kph, so I can see where you're coming from. But then my commuter riding isn't suburban, it's mostly heavily trafficked peak hour roads, and the only 40 zones are school zones. That depends where you're commuting to/from. And I get what you mean with inner city, but like only CBDs in cities I've driven/ridden in are okay, the busy commuter routes to get there are a whole different ball game, that's where you'll get got.

Remember not everything is under your control and someone else can do something that injures or kills you. I would consider commuting in a city to be about the most dangerous riding I have done.

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Statistically commuting in any motor vehicle is one of the most dangerous things anyone does.

You can be the worst car driver in the world and probably not die in an accidents. You can be the best bike rider in the world and die because someone glanced down at their phone.

You could also be struck down by a meteor at any moment. Yes, its more dangerous than a car, But the danger is a bit over blown. Most motorcyclists don't die from their riding. In fact even though most will drop their bike at some point, they'll actually be largely alright. Most motorcycle accidents people walk away from, maybe limping a little, feeling a bit worse for wear, but otherwise ok. The danger is there, and it can go very wrong. But the way some people carry on its like they're expecting to find out you've been turned into a meat crayon every time you get on the bike.

I rode for 30yrs+. I stopped recently because I've pushed the odds for too long and other road users are just too untrustworthy. My point is a simple mistake in a car is a dent, a simple mistake on a bike is catastrophic injury or death. Loved every mile, and the danger was part of the thrill, but it's still risky AF.

It's such a personal decision. For what it's worth, when I worked in a brain injury service where I saw people who 'had it coming' (high risk behaviours) and also people who 'did everything right' and yet had lives wrecked by chance (and more often) the carelessness of other people. If you understand the risk and consequences in a real way as a mature person, control and mitigate risk where you can, and (importantly) are realistic about the residual risk (e.g. you'll still be able to fracture your face and get brain damage even with a helmet) AND riding still brings you joy, then do it! Ride like you're invisible, all the gear, all the time, defensive riding/ track days, and sober contemplation of your mortality, value of time, health, and what brings you joy now (it's ok for that to change over time). Other considerations include ensuring your family understand your decision is a conscious one, and that you're an organ donor so if the worst happens you can bring life to others.

I was riding on the right wheel track a cars length behind a car infront of me and the car behind decided there was enough room for both of us. That was enough to make me sell my bike. People are idiots.

Jesus...

Drive careful, dont speed, and assume every single person on the road is trying to kill you.

Since everyone is just going to spout crap about this that and everything else [here's some actual statistics.](https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiODE5NjMzMTItYTA1NS00ZDc3LTgyNjktZDZkZjc4N2Y1NDVkIiwidCI6ImFhMjFiNjQwLWJhYzItNDU2ZC04NTA1LWYyY2MwN2Y1MTc4NCJ9&pageName=ReportSection0c482aa770040dbbdc8e) Donorcycles? The only people that call them that are wankers that love to talk about how 'I was going to get a bike but...". I work in a hospital and no one calls them that. Hell there is a pretty large group of people including doctors and nurses that ride to work every day. So in summary for 2023... * 1247 fatalities on the roads. * 244 Motorcyclist (20%) but, * Motorcycles make up only about 5% of road users. * Most sources put us at 30x more likely to die in an accident. (not 30x more likely *to be in* an accident, but when there is an accident, fatalities are more likely to occur). * [2019 data](https://research.qut.edu.au/carrsq/wp-content/uploads/sites/296/2020/12/Motorcycle-Safety.pdf) shows that we were sitting at about 2.5 fatalities per 10,000 registered motorcycles, and trending down. While total road users were less than 1 per 10,000 (not as easy to find this data). Wiki has a at 7.4 per 100,000 (0.74 per 10,000 for comparison). So that is exactly how dangerous commuting to work on a motorcycle is. I still do it every day. On a highway. In a state were filtering is legal... and I do it. Too risky? That's a question only you can answer. The only can I say for certain is that the 5 people I personally know that picked up a bike "for commuting" stopped riding in less than 6 months. My anecdotal experience is that you either love riding, or you force yourself in to for some reason, and quit very soon after, and that's okay. I don't like wine or beer... not all things are for all people.

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So not horseshit... just not as granular as you'd like. I spent 10 minutes on this... feel free to spend your own time on it and do better.

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Not a conclusion. Those are the stats... that is the answer to "How dangerous is riding a motorcycle?". It's exactly [this amount of dangerous.](https://app.powerbi.com/view?r=eyJrIjoiODE5NjMzMTItYTA1NS00ZDc3LTgyNjktZDZkZjc4N2Y1NDVkIiwidCI6ImFhMjFiNjQwLWJhYzItNDU2ZC04NTA1LWYyY2MwN2Y1MTc4NCJ9&pageName=ReportSection0c482aa770040dbbdc8e) My actual conclusion is "Too risky? That's a question only you can answer". Straight facts... interpretation is up to you and anyone else that wants to read it.

> So that is exactly how dangerous commuting to work on a motorcycle is. ....is a conclusion. And as the other person said, highly misleading given your statistics are not based on commuting, nor on people who take precautions and ride defensively. The OP's question quite plainly stated both of those as baseline conditions. I'm not a safe rider. Those who are don't fit into your flawed analysis in any way whatsoever. Sorry mate.

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Sorry for offering an non-anecdotal answer to OP's question. Feel free to do your own research.

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Did provided up to date government statistics on vehicle fatalities... the dictionary definition of "not anecdotal". Did not claim to be a scientist. Again... draw your own conclusions.

One thing that I’ve read but would need to check - an alarming number of motorcyclists in accidents have some amount of alcohol in their system. Avoid that, be sensible as you described, and your odds are much better than the average rider. But yeah - I’ve also seen a collection of meat paste dripping down a wall that just had a driver not pay enough attention and turn right in front of them - they may well have been the perfect rider, but if you were in a car that is a nasty crash, but probably not death or serious injury.

Rule 1: Don't be in a hurry Rule 2: Don't forget rule 1.

This is the most important rule on my book. And I break the rule sometimes and regret it even thou nothing has ever happened

You can be the safest rider on road, it's just all the other idiots you need to watch out for.

From memory if your bike is under 1000cc and you've got a few years experience the accident statistics are similar to a most other drivers. Obviously the consequences of an accident are higher on a motorcycle. Personally, I love riding and I'm ok with the risks of doing so. So I ride whenever I get the chance, rain hail or shine. I've spent money on riding courses and practice all sorts of techniques on a semi regular basis as well. You sound like you just want to save some money on commuting, which says to me you won't put as much effort into your riding (or bike maintenance) as you should. Which is what most people do to be fair.

People who work in hospitals call them "donorcycles". I'll put it this way: it's not you that is the problem. You can have all the gear, be as safe as possible but you are sharing the road with a random assortment of drivers every single time you go out. The stats show the reality. I mean, what is the motivation here? Is it a lower cost than a car? Because then you're weighing up $X vs death or serious injury due to knuckleheads who don't give a fuck about your life. I gave up riding a pushbike in Melbourne years ago because the frequent risks to my life just weren't worth it. I'm sure a motorbike rider will come on here and tell you no worries mate just wear the gear and be cautious but you can't beat the cold hard reality of maths. Hospital admission data shows the truth: it's pretty goddamn dangerous.

I hear you, which is why I don't take the prospect lightly. Though I 100% agree with you - it is worth stating that the cost difference is considerable. It's not just the cost of the vehicle itself, but also the cost of parking, fuel, maintenance, servicing, and registration. The difference in cost is in the orders of magnitude - so I hope you can understand why it's a tempting option > I mean, what is the motivation here? Is it a lower cost than a car? Exactly this > Because then you're weighing up $X vs death or serious injury But then this is also a reality. At the end of the day, if the risk is in reality so great that no amount of safety awareness can mitigate the danger and it's significantly higher than driving - it won't be worth it regardless of the costs.

I had a conversation recently with someone about which car to buy. They have enough for either car but are on the frugal side. Their choices essentially came down to one car with all the safety bells and whistles such as driver side curtain airbags vs far less safety (only steering wheel airbags). To me that is just a math equation. Years of life x estimated earnings = $ vs risk of brain damage/death to save $Y. I totally get it if the financial position is the thing pushing it. I was poor, drove a shit car, I had no choice. But if you do have a choice, the sums just don't work out at all. Even if it's $10,000 cheaper right now, the risk over years of using the bike vs the rest of your estimated life to go... nope. Doesn't work out. This isn't even taking into account that you probably want to be alive, and assign some value to that. Death is a terrible outcome but severe brain damage I think is honestly far worse in many ways. But I do get it. Money is hard to get and finances can push certain options very hard. I need to upgrade my car right now to include some better safety features and am struggling because the car market is stupidly inflated. But every time I drive without that safety feature, I'm taking a very small risk. Personally, I wouldn't do it. My father still has a leg injury from his days of riding a motorbike and a car just smashed into him. I don't know a single person who rides a motorbike or has ridden that either hadn't had an accident, or has multiple stories of near misses.

If you're looking at costs, check the engine size. Rego and green slip used to be way cheaper for a 250cc (even less if it was single seated. You can always switch back once you're inspected!) I went back to 250cc after larger bikes. There's still more than enough power. I noticed people were most likely to misuse their power when tired, angry, distracted (in a hurry) or drug affected. Limiting that potential aint a bad idea

I heard that oh-so-hilarious quip so many times I took myself off the donor registry. Jokes on you! 😅

> Hospital admission data shows the truth: it's pretty goddamn dangerous. Wait, how do hospital admissions data account for the population of motorbike riders that **don't** end up in hospitals? And how does it normalise for the set of complex risk factors involved that leads to any given rider ending up being admitted? Sounds like some pretty severe observational bias to me.

Do you understand that there are multiple studies on motorbike risks not just in Australia but in many countries. We use hospital admission data, police data, road studies, coroner info, all kinds of things. You're talking like we just count the injured and dead riders coming into hospital/morgue without looking at the total population of riders. Which we know from rego data and other studies. There are no studies of any kind showing riding a motorbike is safer than driving a car. It's just all one direction: car is safer. That's the end of that story. Of course risks can be mitigated etc by your own actions but overall the reality is that by sharing the road with cars, a bike rider is at risk. It's up to everyone to decide their own level of what they're comfortable with. We haven't as a society made motorbikes illegal so clearly it's not above the thresholds for us to legislate on. But make no mistake: riding a motorbike is dangerous and not just a little bit more dangerous. People are just bad with stats and understanding risk is usually the issue.

That's an awful lot of apologetics that could've been avoided by not failing to mention every single other consideration except for hospital admission data in your first comment.

So your expectation is that Reddit comments need to be full dissertations? Nah

Selection bias + confirmation bias ≠ useful data.

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Surely all citizens are temporary, because no one will live forever?

That's the attitude that leads to people seeing motorcyclists as less important than "normal people" and "they all deserve it because i once saw a bike riding dangerously"

I ride a bike to work almost every day. Yes it's more dangerous than driving a car. And driving a car is more dangerous then the train. And the train is more dangerous than working from home. But those other options don't make sense for everyone. For me, the road tolls in a car are $28 each day. Plus the extra fuel a car uses, plus I get home late and miss dinner with my kids every night. I think education is the most important thing than needs to change. We aren't "motorcycles" we are people riding motorcycles. We are seen as "other" by car drivers, but that needs to end. We are people just like them going about our lives, we have families and loved ones. We are not expendable any more than the next person.

Sold my bike. Too many asshats on the road who cut you off, “don’t see you” despite wearing a bright red helmet etc. wasn’t worth the risk to me, I did really enjoy riding a bike though. Had a Honda cbr600rr which was awesome, got out of bikes for a while then later got a Kawasaki 600cc that had a more upright seating position. Had a bike licence for 20 years now

I'm exactly in the same position. I've personally decided that while I can trust myself, Im not going to risk it. These days I'd only ride with full protective gear, and that robs some of the joy of riding for me. Combined with having to ride in heat, rain and cold, I've opted to buy a small convertible. I'm jealous though of guys who ride, and I wish I wasn't so afraid. I do other things that are high risk, but for some reason being cleaned up by a P plater on their phone scares the shit outta me.

I'll put it this way, In a car you have some protection but when you are on a motorcycle your body is at the mercy of the worst drivers on the road; the drunk, drugged, unlicensed, distracted, fatigued, demented or plain careless. I have seen multiple people maimed and killed through no fault of their own whilst commuting on motorcycles, cars too, but not to the same extent.

Many of the people in intensive care were not at fault. However it is possible to ride more safely and it seems like you have that idea.

Most were though.

The last stat I saw was 60x more likely to die, 280x more likely to have a permanent disability/life changing injury. I think a lot of people have survivorship bias.

bikes are dangerous, no matter how careful you are.

I commuted by motorcycle every day for about fifteen years. Yea there are some accidents where you can be doing everything right and still get hit. My personal experience is that if you’re doing everything right you can minimise how dangerous the accident can be. Two spring to mind. Each time I could ride away. Be pro active about it. Pull up early, maintain distances. And the other point you mentioned yourself. Things will go wrong out there, once you accept that it will help you not panic and freeze up.

Having 15 years under my belt (not including growing up with bikes) here are my thoughts about how you can reduce the risk. But a word of caution. You cannot stop idiots. You need to understand that some rarer situations you wont be able to do anything. Thankfully I’ve not incurred this yet. For everthing else, there are ways to reduce the risk. - your age means little if you dont have experience and confidence. Confidence improves reaction time. Experience improves confidence. Experience both on road and offroad is ideal. - bike power is not the problem for someone who is experienced. If you have years under your belt, a 1200cc bike is no more of an issue than a 300cc. It’s only an issue if you are not experienced with handling bikes and their power. In fact, having additional power often allows you to accelerate away from problems. - only riding in inner city traffic is much slower so you have more time to react to idiots. I’ve had 1 accident and that was about 20km/h because an old biddy pulled into my lane right in front of me. Did not fall off. Kinda stepped off. - if you have not already, go on a riding course that covers defensive riding. You should choose a level based on your skill. Most have multi-skilled lessons that tailor to your experience level. Here’s an example - https://www.stayupright.com.au/courses/new-south-wales/ - along similar lines to the above. Assume everyone will pull out on you. Learn to know when to take the slack out of your breaks and load them up. Learn how to shift within your lane to minimise the impact of someone pulling out on you. These things are taught on those courses. - gear. When you come off, the difference between 18 months recovery and none is often gear. I often thought of similar options to you for commuting but eventually moved closer into a cheap unit. When I was thinking about it I was thinking something like a adventure or touring bike. My ideal would have been a BMW GS1200 but I also looked at the 850 model and the Kawasaki KLR650. They are comfortable for longer distances and will easily hold gear for getting changed and for work. They also allow a higher level of manoeuvring. They are not some low slung Harley that scrapes it’s pegs around corners.

I'm in my 40s, been riding dirtbikes and road for 10yrs, and the only place I have been hurt is on the trails. I filter through Melbourne peakhour, and despite seeing others zoot past, I stick to the rules: keep it under 30km/h when filtering. I am cautious of any gap that opens up ahead of me and always assume that no driver knows where their indicators are located. ATGATT is a good motto, but it doesn't beat a head on a swivel.

Keep your speed within 15km/hr of those around you. That's the speed bracket at which crashes with others are most likely (any vehicle) because people can't predict so well or assume you're travelling at the same speed. As for commuting. In Brisbane QLD I've been commuting exclusively on my motorbike for about 8 years. I've stacked it once on some gravel on a corner - that's it. I highly recommend you take a rider course once more to assist you with *road craft* in knowing where in the lane to sit to be seen and give yourself an exit at all times. Car drivers are still ignorant and I've avoided thousands of accidents during those 8 years to the extent that whilst it used to enrage me how ignorant and blind some car drivers - now I just make the maneuver to get safe, shake my head once I'm past the danger zone, and continue riding.

The problem is the other idiots on the road.

Had my license for over a decade, haven't ridden on the road for 6+ years, not worth it imo, so many morons on the roads, only riding I do now is on a track. The roads scare the SHIT out of me these days

Fatal/serious crash risk peaks in the first year or two of riding, then gradually decreases with experience until it settles to slightly higher than when driving a car. Don’t ask me for a source, i don’t remember - it was from a presentation by a riding instructor years ago (and i suppose it could be wrong). Afaik the top cause of motorcycle crashes is ‘single vehicle’ on winding roads, due to bad corner entry leading to bad exit on the outside shoulder - butthole clench -> handful of front brake -> slide into tree or embankment. Close second is car drivers pulling out in front of motorcycles, possibly due to misjudged speed and distance - ‘sorry mate i didn’t see you’. Both can be managed with careful riding and experience. You can’t control how well others drive, but you can do your best to anticipate common mistakes and bad driving habits. Ride as if you’re invisible and keep your head on a swivel, and don’t stay in anyone’s blind spot if you can help it.

I committed for ten years with no issues. Many motorcyclists are morons and ride as such. Check out the footage on motorcycling subs - they often cause their own accidents and put themselves in positions they shouldn’t be in.

Anecdotally, every person I’ve met who rides a motorcycle has some kind of horror story.

My dad rode his motorbikes for 35 years roughly 30kms each way to and from work (9-5 job), rain, hail and shine, was only ever in 2 accidents. He slipped on a tram track in Melbourne and was rear ended by a car, no serious injuries.

I'm an emerg dispatcher - Victoria. Alot of the horror stories I see, I can see that it's due to error, lack of safety equipment, someone being an idiot. Of course, you can just be down right unlucky, and you're very vulnerable on a bike. But I would definitely say inexperience, stupidity plays a huge role in alot of the horror stories you see. (I do ride a motorbike myself)

29. Got bike license at 17. Rode everyday for years (recreational and to and from work) and never had any accident or issues. Some close calls surely, but overall safe On the flip side to that I had a mate who got his bike license a few years ago and the first day he came off of it on an oily patch on the road. But he’s not the brightest spark in general so…

Roughly 60% or accidents are the fault of the motorcyclist and 40% don't even involve another vehicle. So really if you ride within the road rules you will be fine. The biggest problem with a motorcycle is just having to lug shit everywhere and you have to accept you'll always look a little scruffy (there's a lot of sweaty cracks, dirty hands and messy hair)

You could die equally outside your own control by having coffee outside a cafe, walking on a side walk or through a car park. Just takes a single elderly chap to forget who they are. If you’re not a dick your odds improve massively, but ultimately if it’s your day - it’s your day. Despite this you see a lot of us still doing it. And the more of us that do, the safer is actually becomes!

I’ll be up front, I have a bias against motorcycles so factor that in to what I say - I have had two people close to me (one family and one the father of my best friend)that have died riding motorcycles. Both were the other drivers fault, they were both very experienced motorcyclists with many years of experience - which doesn’t matter feck all as they are still dead and never coming back. So that’s why I’m against it, but I will admit to my bias. Here’s my perspective: 1. As a commuter you are riding much more often than any other type of motorcyclist (except people who race motorcycles professionally maybe) so even if the risk is low, you roll those dice every day so your odds over the long term are much worse than you think. Sure folks might do more risky things: skydiving, bungee jumping, downhill skiing, etc, but they’re not doing that twice a day 5 days a week 40+ weeks a year. The longer and more often you “take the risk” the more likely you are to roll snake-eyes. 2. Human brains are not as good as we like to think they are, they can only process a small percentage of what their senses pick up, they have shortcuts they use to help, fast image and pattern recognition type processes, so often a truck or a car driver is subconsciously telling their brain to “look out for cars and trucks” as they are most common on the roads. Which means when they see a motorbike or a cycle their brain doesn’t bother to notice it as it. Doesn’t match the pattern it was looking for - which is why there are so many reports of drivers looking right at motorcyclists just before blithely driving into them. 3. Folks in cars, vans and trucks may have more accidents but the outcome is always less severe. You have seatbelts, crumple zones, airbags, etc that increase your survivability and reduce the likelihood of severe damage. If you need to save costs then limit your risk exposure, can you ride too and from the nearest train station and commute the rest of the way?

I was riding on a semi urban road, 80km/h, one lane each direction with overtaking stripes, dead straight for the section I’m talking of. Camper van pulls onto the road about 200m ahead, no issues as I have the overtaking stripes. As I’m almost on this camper van, it hooks a hard right, cutting me off. I tried to cut back in to the left lane but clipped the rear of this thing, sending me and the bike spinning off to the side of the road. You can’t account for other drivers lack of attention or just plain stupidity. Apparently he didn’t hear me or see me, straight through pipes on a 865cc twin cafe racer.

More dangerous than a car but I would say the statistics are HEAVILY skewed. They’re a thrill seeking machine and that gets a lot of people hurt. I have no stats but I would be willing to guess 90% of deaths are from either reckless riding or just bad riding. Watching the youtube videos it is mostly the riders fault they crash more so than a car. Legally they may be in the right sometimes but many crashes I see are easily avoidable if you remember how vulnerable you are and ride defensively.

If you decide to get a bike - get good gear, and get it in hi-vis flouro. Don't wear all black.

It’s so often that position that ‘all drivers are out to kill you’ ‘it’s too dangerous with all these idiots on the road’… I’ve been commuting on my GS for 2 and a bit years now - in that time I’ve had one incident which was my fault and I learned a valuable lesson from it. I would hazard a guess that most people with this position are not riders, or people of a more risk-averse disposition… When your riding, for pleasure or commuting, you are responsible for your safety. You need to observe everything in front and behind you, you need to anticipate what a driver may or may not do and prepare accordingly for it. That usually means slowing down, speeding up (e.g. to get yourself out of a blind spot) and using the full width of lanes. The way I see it, the moment you start blaming others for your safety on the bike, you’re on a downhill and should consider if riding is for you - because you’re only likely to get angrier and pay less attention to the road and the next deadly obstacle. Filtering is an interesting one in Australia - learning to ride in Europe, filtering is integral part of riding, here I see scooters and small bikes sitting in traffic, it’s insane! Sure, filtering presents additional risk, but again, it’s mitigated through observation, practice and experience - start slow, look ahead - don’t target fixate, check car wing/rearview mirrors, where is the driver’s attention? Which way are their tyres are pointing? For me it’s a thrill, it gets the brain juices pumping first thing in the morning! Only downside is the heat! Wearing appropriate equipment comes with its drawbacks… For info, my commute is Parramatta to St Mary’s every day, rain or shine, wet, cold or freezing. I realise it’s different to Eastern suburbs, but hey, I’d still welcome the challenge!

Known a lot of riders over the years. Every. Single. One. Has had what I would call a major accident (at least a broken bone needing months of recovery).

Every one I've known has either had a major accident (like my father smashing his leg), or minor, or has some seriously scary near-miss story. Always cars pulling out in front of them, or crossing in front of them, or just not seeing them. Take up skateboarding if you want a sorta risky hobby. Wear pads and you'll still hurt yourself from time to time but the consequences are far less severe than riding a motorbike.

Yet me and my 3 middle aged friends who ride have made it this far with nothing more than a couple of scrapes and bruises between us. Anecdotal evidence isn’t evidence at all. Yes riding has risks, it’s is unquestionably a lot more dangerous than driving. It’s also hard to quantify the risk for a responsible rider generally riding at slower urban speeds because the stats are very skewed by inexperienced and irresponsible riders, often not wearing protective gear. I will say that high speed, high traffic roads are the main thing you want to avoid if you are trying to reduce your risk. Staying below 80kph or getting out of the city is safest.

Known only one, and they are now in a wheelchair

Pretty bloody dangerous mate. And as already pointed out, it's not you, it's them( ie all the other road users). It is possible to ride defensively enough to see EVERY hazard coming beforehand and evade it. BUUUT, it takes a lot of experience to develop the awareness required to get to that level. And chances are you'll have an off or get taken out before you get there. If you want to take up motorcycling for the enjoyment of it, then by all means do so. You can chose your moment when the traffic is quiet and still enjoy the ride. But if you want to take up motorcycling because you think it's going to be a cheap way to commute, then I'd advise not to. You'll be riding in heavy traffic which to be honest is the worst time. In my experience you have to be so aware of every possible hazard it makes you a nervous wreck by the time you get to your destination.Absolutely zero enjoyment in such circumstances. The chances of getting knocked off in heavy traffic are exponentially higher and then any money you have saved will be lost whilst you can't work due to your injuries.

Short answer: Very. You can take all the precautions you like but its the other people on the road you can't control. As a biker/cyclist you are just at a huge risk of getting clumped everytime you ride, and you'll always lose. Source: ICU nurse.

I’ve said the following line to dozens of people i know who ride and every single one of them have agreed: “Every single motorbike rider, has multiple near death experiences” I don’t think it is disputable. With that being said, sure you can ride defensively etc. However, it is hard to be perfect every single day. Mistakes can and do happen, and the problem with bikes is that when one does, unfortunately, the consequences can be extremely severe. My former best friend had an accident where the driver just pulled out in front of him. He smashed into their side, flipped over the top of the car and slid 50M down the street unconscious. He was in a coma for a week. He had multiple blood clots in his brain (he was wearing a helmet). When he eventually woke and recovered he was a changed person, with complete personality change. We are no longer friends as a result. Although of course i am happy he survived, i still feel like i lost my best friend because the person i loved l like a brother did die that day. I also have to mention visiting him in the brain injury unit in hospital was horrific. There were so many patients who were (and please, i don’t mean to be insulting but I’m trying to convey the horror here) vegetables. I will never forget one person who lay there eyes open but unseeing, whose ward was covered wall to wall with “get well soon” cards, but also drawings and paintings of “Happy Birthdays”, “we miss you dad” etc. Many of these were yellowed with age and they clearly showed a chronological sequence where the oldest were fingerpaint drawings and the newest were handwritten teenager type letters. Clearly, this person has been in there for many years, loved by his family but essentially gone from them. I cannot imagine the pain his family felt and the burden on them. By all means Do it (ride) for the love but accept the fact that it can be very dangerous and that it affects not just you.

Most (but not all) of the risks are controllable. Most motorcycle accidents involve one or more of the following risk factors: Unlicensed/ non learner legal motorcycle Alcohol/drug affected rider Insufficient safety gear (usually no helmet) Excessive speed for the conditions. You can't control all risk factors obviously, you can't control the rare truck that pulls out in front of you. You can however control the factors that impact the majority of accidents. The risk factor is greatly overstated. Horseback riding and skiing have almost 10x the fatal/serious permanent injury rate per thousand hours but nobody ever talks about that. All they talk about is their mate in highschool who died (probably unlicensed, speeding and without a helmet) and how unsafe bikes are because of that.

From research I've seen using road crash data, 8 out of every 10 motorcyclists are responsible for their own death. Sure, other vehicles in commuting can be a problem, but ride smart, filter and you'll be good.

The horror stories are over-exaggerated by people who have too strong a fear of injury or death. And in my opinion, it’s precisely those people who not only shouldn’t ever ride a motorcycle, but should reconsider whether or not to drive a car. Being in a state of fear makes your whole body uneasy and prone to making mistakes. Everyone saying that it’s other motorists you have to look out for, they’re mostly correct. However, I feel that simply saying that takes the focus off your riding behaviour, because you can’t control other motorists, but you can absolutely control your riding. It takes focus, patience, cat-like reflexes and a healthy respect of the present dangers to be a good motorcyclist. All things that can make us fatigue much quicker than we would in a car. All of what I just said should be immediately obvious to a motorcyclist, but I feel you can’t drill it in hard enough if these conversations keep popping up constantly. I’m inclined to drag this out as long as I have to, but I won’t. All I’ll say is there are so many more reasons **NOT TO RIDE** a motorcycle than there is **TO RIDE** a motorcycle. The most important reason to ride a motorcycle is to get enjoyment from it, because it is a very enjoyable experience. And if you don’t get enjoyment from riding a motorcycle, don’t ride a motorcycle. Simple. I understand you were asking for the practicalities of riding a motorcycle, but a motorcycle isn’t practical in the big picture. Riding to work is a compromise, but it’s not as big a compromise as other people would have you believe it is.

If you're going to ride then get a very LOUD bike, or put a noisy exhaust on it. Also, install a horn that sounds like a car, or truck. Then go do a defensive riding course. The loud horn saved my bacon many times. Mums in big SUVs would jump when I tooted them for not shoulder checking and drifting into my lane. They would look surprised when they see a bike going by instead of a car. People are just not used to bikes in this country and they just don't see them. However, if they hear something that sounds big coming along they will take notice and move out of the way. Most of the time. The rest of the time you will just have to ride as if everyone is out to get you.

I’ve held a bike license for about 16 years spent years commuting as a rain/hail/shine commuter, hooning knee down/wheelies/street racing, ridden dirt/enduro/supermoto, raced supersports bikes at club level and track days for years etc. I’ve seen it all - had mates killed in crashes, been to court for dangerous driving, been in the back of an ambo twice from bike crashes etc. For the record I think commuting on a bike is the most dangerous of all those things and requires a totally different mind and skill set to racing and weekend riding. My perspective is all riding comes down to judgement (reading the conditions) first and skills (reaction time, operating the bike well) second. You see these guys who buy a sensible commuter bike and drape themselves in hi vis etc and these guys are often extremely sensible people in real life, they’re not risk takers etc. However these people are not as safe as they’d like to think and are often some of the least competent riders you’ll ever see. Yes they won’t deliberately take risks and ride dangerously but if they do find themselves in a sticky situation they’re probably come off second best. Also riding with or slower than the traffic makes you a massive target (sitting in blind spots) vs riding slightly quicker than everyone else and progressing forwards at all times. Bro on the R1 with no gear on slicing through the traffic with no gear on might seem like a moron with a death wish but his reactions and ability to read the road could be 20-50% better than the safety guy - and he’s on a bike that has more braking stability and also has the ability to power out of bad situation. This is all generalising I know. I’m a reformed hoon/ex racer so when I ride now I think I’m in the best position- i have the years of knowledge and skill to ride at a high level but I choose not to do that and now just cruise around and don’t take anywhere near the unnecessary risks which I used to. The most important quote that I live by when riding is from aviation, they say “a good pilot relies on his expert judgement rather than his expert skills”. Judgement is built up over time from cataloging driver behaviour, profiling types of vehicles and drivers etc. Often following the law to the letter is the more dangerous option- such as slamming on the brakes for an orange light on a bike.

>it just too risky, no matter how well prepared you are? You can ride perfectly and still get cleaned up by a car drivers momentary lapse of vision - it's not your fault, but you're still dead. I've held a bike licence for years, but don't currently own one - and I have nearly cleaned up a few bikers over the years while driving my car - and I try to see bikes (as I used to bicycle to work for years) but even I stuff up and while I'd be safe, the person on two wheels won't be :( I've been hit by a car while on my push bike. Stationary. At a red light. $800 damage and I didn't even fall off... Imagine if I'd been motoring along at 60kmh instead? :( It's just too dangerous, too many oblivious car drivers out there now :( Ride dirt bikes on private property instead, then it's up to you and only you, no-one else is going to smash into you.

If you've nearly killed several motorcyclists, you should get the fuck off the road.

Statistically speaking you are 30x more likely to die on a bike than in a car. If you're happy with that risk profile, go for gold but you have very little control over the outcome.

Every old timer I've met or worked with that rode had fallen off. Some got luck others were slightly disabled. It's a matter of time and the risk ain't worth it.

I have a motorcycle license but don’t own a motorcycle. But have plenty of family members and friends that do. Every single one of them has come off their motorcycle at some point in time (some multiple) and some seriously injured. Many times it’s resulted through no fault of their own.

No-one in the medical profession drives these. [Make of that](https://le-cdn.website-editor.net/s/bc95314b2254434c8923f0eeae8aa056/dms3rep/multi/opt/Dilbert-Water-Safety-Dept-1920w.jpg?Expires=1704198247&Signature=bw4EzW4XbuwjF8FOfIWW890gNqShBK7gM0~quiQNj4P~Cy-ZIzKpQsP3Jq47z8Kq~aBY5gFL2RxrjA8tOcd2BgGgSP5QFI3kbY2~wgGCpyZba1AWnU4lj33J~otIsemQGDqmHIM23anLEl6Yk1tUKxUeWfQSnTtL4iTAt1H3zIPVX9Ha3seVA~dFIdlcbK4gO~PobisKrD1J04TVVYX9r3ExraR2dlt3Bl7gyLM8gXjWSa~YV23e0Rk70NvNOjhvJsdCTuiMIJQUxtc4VjNxspkrTSISSvdqqWHMGYvfvP1G-TePna9BogLLAlEbwpB-JBR36bKCukcV7r63werIkg__&Key-Pair-Id=K2NXBXLF010TJW) what you will.

Username checks out.

Well that’a straight up not true. I know some that do. Even if you narrowed that down to ER/trauma staff I’m confident there would still be exceptions.

Forgive my hyperbole.

> Even if you narrowed that down to ER/trauma staff I’m confident there would still be exceptions. 100%. I know a surgeon who will use his motorbike to get to the hospital quick AF if it's an emergency.

I rode in Perth for about 2 years, only doing 3000ks but I'd say too risky. Cars tend to go through you like you are a ghost.

I'm very experience off and on road rider I use to race. Worked at a bike shop. It was shocking how many customers newbie and experience died or got injured on the monthly. I commuted on a bike for 2yrs in Auckland, near misses were a daily experience. I thought the Gold Coast (13yrs ago) would be awesome for bikes... I pretty quickly realised its way to dangerous... and now it's damn scary just in a car.

Was driving on the M1 yesterday, a driver decided to change lanes at 100km/h without indicating or head checking(because they wouldve spotted the car beside them). I began honking the moment they began moving into my lane, held the horn on and they just kept going into my lane. If I wasnt extremely attentive during this peakhour rush they'd have taken out multiple vehicles. Seconds later a bike lanesplits right where this oblivious car came from. A few seconds earlier and that dude would've been slammed at 100km/h by the person who didnt indicate or headcheck. On a bike you are completely at the will of other drivers. I've been driving for too long and know that there are so many bad drivers out there and it only takes a split second lack of concentration or distraction to turn a good driver into a bad one. Personally I couldn't risk riding here where most drivers dont understand riding.

I used to ride because the Telco I worked at allowed free parking for bikes, $10 a day for cars. The only real issues I ever had was car drivers not paying attention, ie a mother yelling at her kids changing in to my line at the lights while I was still there, and a tradie being a dick in Granville , lane changing and not looking. But my eyes couldn’t handle it and I had to give up.

If you ride with the attitude everyone is a cunt, you will be ok

It's risky. Would never do in the rain or in a city. I've since given up my MC but my last brush was got green, waited two seconds and still nearly died from a truck running a red. I value my life more than that. If I wanna ride now, it'd be trails or outback etc.

Maybe get a moped if you’re just city commuting, and stay off main roads.

Still more dangerous than a car.

If it helps when we went to the Alfred hospital the nurse said 99% of patients who are here with brain injury are motorbikes, yet they account for 1% of the population on the road. Think of how many slips you’ve had in your car, a quick break, hit a curb by accident, drove over something on the freeway. These are all minor things in cars, however on motorcycles could end up with your life.

I'm not an expert and don't ride myself, but in my opinion it is always going to be inherently risky. A family member lost their life riding below 40km/h in school traffic, not splitting, because an impatient elderly driver decided to turn in front of traffic without looking. It could have been a quick insurance fender bender with minimal damage if they had been in a car. Unfortunately even though they were riding with all the gear, braking quite a bit before impact, they had their life stolen away. Obviously being a good rider, being properly equipped and riding cautiously will greatly minimise risk, but when someone decides not to drive responsibly a bike will always come off second best no matter how much you try to mitigate it. Best to take advice from someone with experience though, just my personal take. I always wanted to own and ride road bikes, but ever since this incident I won't ever ride anything again.

Couple of things if you go ahead. Practice your e stops, defensive manoeuvres, have your head on a swivel, stay very visible and expect people to not see you, and one thing that gets a lot of new riders is accidentally turning the throttle when braking. Practise this with the engine off and it may just save you from accidentally running into a car, wall or window when you're desperate to slow down. Make it a unconscious competency = very helpful, same with your gear changes as it's the 'opposite' of driving a manual. Oh and learn how to ride at VERY low speeds. Personally I achieve this by holding the rear brake on a bit to keep it steady. There may be other techniques.

I stopped riding a motorcycle when 4WD became popular, they just can't be trusted. I've seen some things... compound fractures, burning flesh, a welcome death. "*yeah, naah*" quoth the raven

Idk but I dated a professional motor cross rider who would never ride on the road. That stuck with me 20 years later

Yes.

So the thing that makes motor bikes dangerous is that if you're in a crash there are no walls to protect you. So it's not necessarily about being a "responsible" driver (*although that obviously helps*), it's about being able to avoid other people's stupidity. I say this all the time when people talk about about how speeding laws are silly or whatever, you don't just have to be good enough to avoid causing an accident, you also have to be aware enough to avoid the accidents caused by someone else. With that in mind sometimes a more high powered bike can be an advantage. If you find yourself in a position where you're going to be hit, you may need to swerve, break or accelerate. Having a lower powered bike can potentially remove that third option. Not that you need something crazy powerful, but enoigh kick to move when needed. Now if you have good awareness and know how to ride defensively then I would say the risks aren't as high as you probably think. I don't ride a motor bike, but I've been riding bicycles since before I can remember and ride on the road all the time. I'll ride on some pretty major roads occasionally, but I also know to look at the conditions of that road before I make that decision. If visibility is bad, or something is making the road slippery, or for whatever reason cars may be distracted or have have trouble avoiding me I won't do it. If an accident happens, no matter who's fault or how minor it is I'll be the one in physical therapy for the next 6 months. It doesn't mean I don't ride my bike, but I do take precautions. I would say it's doable, but no matter how safe you make it it will never be as safe as a car. You're taking on *some* risk. It's totally up to you how much that's worth, and whether it's for you.