I guess under our democracy, she has a right to say what she wants. In Australia that means she has to accept that what she says may have consequences.
Can Labor afford upsetting its Western Sydney constituents by trying to gag the senator?
Nope. And they haven't gagged her. She is suspended rather than expelled. She can return when she chooses to align with the party's policy. They're showing solidarity with party rules whilst respecting that she has a stance on this that she doesn'tfeel she can compromise on, like a good proportion of the country, and who could expect her to not cross the floor on this issue. Hypocritical in the extreme.
Anyway, watch Israel launch war against Hezbollah in Lebanon, and kill Lebonese that aren't related to Hezbollah or even muslim... then watch the Lebanese community come out too...
It will be interesting who the government sides with then.
As an elected member of the Senate, for the good state of Western Australia, i wonder if she is really representing the views of her constitutes, of which she is there to represent ?
Doesn't matter what her constituents views are.
The ALP says you've got to represent the views of ALP Caucus and vote accordingly, not represent your constituents.
I can tell you from my anecdotal experience both for myself and many people I know. She absolutely is. Australia is on the wrong side of history right now. We are supporting a genocidal and tyrannical government in Israel. I do not what my tax dollars contributing. I commend Senator Payman for her stance against this absurdity. She is representing me and many people from WA with respect, integrity and dignity.
That war started by Hamas when they slaughtered, raped, and kidnapped Israeli citizen just going about their normal daily lives ? And Israel was just supposed to cop that, turn the other cheek ?And I can tell you I know a lot of people too who agree exactly with my views...
I mostly agree with you, but weren't these illegal settlements that were attacked? Still absolutely does not justify attacking them, especially in the most inhumane brutal way that Hamas chose. But both sides are at fault to a degree I think, although Hamas is definitely far more at fault.
No, you were just being selective, to just disagree...and trying to use a bullshit point to cover it. The boundaries of the Gaza strip have been fixed since 48...and re-enforced and agreed to under the Oslo agreement. So there were no illegal settlements.
So do you obviously...and learn some geography and history. The Golan Heights was Syrian territory.taken over in the 5 day wars and used very conveniently in the Yon Kupper wars to wipeout the Syrian army The West bank is where the illegal settlements are taking place which is under Palestinian Authority control. Do I support that, No, nor do I try to make up bullshit reasons to excuse an internationally recognised terrorist actions, like your doing !
Oh I don't agree with what's going on in the Westbank or the ousting of people from their homes that they have lived in for generations in Jerusalem. But how about you learn some history yourself, about these terrorist groups who are acting in the name of Palestine ? 72 Munich games, Entebbe rescue, can't recall how many other hijackings that were done, or bombings of innocent civilians, in the name of the "Palestinian cause". Let alone how many rocket and drone attacks that were aimed at Israel from Hamas held Gaza strip. While you're at it, look into how the whole world turned it's back on the Jews from 1933 onwards till 1945, and see why the nation's anthem is "Never Again !" Hamas fucked around, and now it's finding out what happens when you do fuck with Israel...
I dunno, the "and Israel should just cop that and turn the other cheek" suggests you think that people living under that regime should just cop what's happening to them.
HAMAS isn't finding out what happens when you fuck with Israel. The thousands of civilians that the Israeli government is using modern USA military weapons to kill wholesale is.
HAMAS is a terrorist organization and anyone siding with them is fucked in the head. They have killed countless civilians. Not as many as the Israeli government has killed, but it's not like killing less civilians means you are suddenly the good guys.
I was fucking disgusted and Albo made the statement that Australia supports the Israeli governments right to defend itself.
There are 0 good guys fighting in that conflict, and if you go back over the last 70 years (as in the modern history) you will see slaughter after slaughter by both the Israeli government and the Palestinian movement. The number of war crimes committed there should make anyone sick.
The only relationship we should have there is sanctioning the Israeli government, sanctioning anyone interacting with HAMAS, and providing humanitarian relief. Anything else means we are supporting one genocidal war crime committing organisation.
So what should of Israel done then after Oct 7th ? For once Albo was right, every country has the right to defend itself and to protect its citizens. Also hate to be the bearer of bad news, but till Islamists recognise Israel's right to exist, this shit is still going to be going on for another 70 yrs...
Not have executed as many civilians as they have and created the circumstances for HAMAS to thrive?
There have been multiple attempts to make Jerusalem a neutral location, the UN tried to make it an international neutral zone at one point.
As ironic as this comparison is, it would be like saying that the Germans were right to execute people who sympahised with the Jewish people and who were part of the resistance, because "what were they supposed to do"?
Not kill civilians in job lots because they believe something different to you?
And the situation is so fucked because Israel exists due to colonization, but it's been there long enough you can't just say ok, pack up and go.
It would be like if the indigenous population here in Australia were organized and had access to modern weaponry.
You couldn't just ask the non indigenous population to leave, where would we go? But if we spent year after year killing the indigenous population for believing something different we would be the good guys either.
I don't imagine the islamists will ever recognize Israels right to exist anymore than Israel will recognize Palestines right to exist. Because religion is fucked and it has been the excuse humans have used for millenia to commit horrific violence on one another.
The western world particularly dislikes Islam. And I get it, the countrys that it is the primary religion in are largely incredibly oppressive to their people, women especially. But how does that happen? By the rest of the world insisting on continuing to destabilize the region. Which leads to warlords and dictators who use religion as a method to stay in control.
Fuck, the number of regimes the US alone have toppled because another guy would listen to what they say is enough to have made fundamentalist Islam spread everywhere.
Look at Iran, they were on their way to becoming modernized and less religious, women had rights and could vote, they had even banned forcing women to wear veils or hijabs. But Iran also nationalised its oil industry and the US couldn't have that. Oil is much more important than human rights.
So they and the UK backed a military coup that toppled the elected PM and installed a religious fundamentalist as the new leader, since he was happy to listen to the USA if he got to roll back all the progressive laws.
And it's not like Christianity isnt oppressive. The USA, a supposedly modern first world country has banned abortions. Sorry women, you don't get to have a say in this anymore because it makes God angry.
They are now pushing for an end to no-fault divorce. As in women can't divorce their husbands unless they can prove he has been at fault of some indiscretion. They have engaged in literal book burning, yes literal as in they stacked them in a pile and burned them, because the books had positive stories about the LGBTQ community. But I don't see people on here raging that the USA needs to be stopped, and that Christianity is an evil and oppressive religion.
The only reason Israel have the military might to just kill civilians at whim is that the USA send them stupid amounts of weaponry because they view Israel as their military foothold in the middle East. It's been directly said by multiple US politicians. As long as Israel is happy to let the US use them as a staging group, they can commit as many atrocities as they like and the US will back them (which I guess means Australia will back them).
Your view of this whole thing just seems to be extremely one sided. There is no justification for the crimes either side have committed. And neither has any intention of recognizing the others right to exist if history is any indication.
There was a ceasefire before October 7, and ironically, Netanyahu wouldn’t have continued that long in power as the protests were crazy against him. The weekend soldiers who were missing during October 7, were boycotting they’re jobs due to protest of Netanyahu, but Hamas kept him in power by starting the war, and he gets to stay on as a wartime prime minister with extended powers and no elections in the near future until the war ends
Just because there was a ceasefire, doesn't mean other things weren't going on. On both sides.
When the weaker party to the war pulls a massive stunt like this you know they're pissed off, doesn't make it ok, but shows they're pissed off.
The retaliation by Israel is just as bad as October 7, they are also pissed off at being caught off guard... but no one seems to give a shit that they're both the same with behaviour, with one having significantly more political power and fire-power than the other. So yes. There should be an end to it. There should be a two state solution. Both Israel and Hamas should face international criminal court. And Yes, Israel has significantly more power, and Hamas does not represent all Palastinians.
It's really not fucking hard to not take absolute sides.
In the past 18 years since Israel left Gaza in 2006, they have had 9 elections, and they have had 5 in the last 5 years. That goes to show how much the local Israelis trust their government, and the level of political stability there. Hamas on the other hand, enjoy wide support even amongst the people who were polled. They haven’t held elections since 2006. If Israel’s government was representative of their people, they wouldn’t have had so many elections in the near past, this doesn’t indicate that the Israeli government had the support of their people, because as alluded to earlier, some members of the Israeli border force were out protesting Netanyahu when October 7 happened. It would’ve been highly unlikely that Hamas would’ve gone that deep into Israel if they were on duty. Ironically, it is Hamas who have kept Netanyahu in power, with extended powers as a wartime PM, whose powers only dissolve if a ceasefire is reached and/or hostages are released. However since Gaza haven’t had elections since 2006 and Hamas holds strong support even before and after October 7, it can be said that Hamas is representative of the people’s views there.
Cool stuff man, you've changed my mind actually. Let's bomb and burn all the children and women of Gaza. Thanks so much for making me better and more informed person.
Well if the people you let run your country and you support them, use you as human shields as they hide underground like cowards, didums...you dance in the street on October 7th, can't bitch when you cope it back bigger and meaner.. that's how war works.
Why you still talking brother? I agree with you. All the children in Palestine should be burned alive. Thank you so much for teaching me how vile I was. I'm so glad I'm enlightened now.
There was a ceasefire before October 7, and ironically, Netanyahu wouldn’t have continued that long in power as the protests were crazy against him. The weekend soldiers who were missing during October 7, were boycotting they’re jobs due to protest of Netanyahu, but Hamas kept him in power by starting the war, and he gets to stay on as a wartime prime minister with extended powers and no elections in the near future until the war ends
>Senator Payman said she had no intention of quitting the party.
Then run as an independent if you're going to break party rules. But of course, she wants the funding and the support of a major party while pushing an independent agenda. In the debate leading up to the vote, both Labor and Liberal tried to put qualifications on the recognition of statehood but Payman said yes to a carte blanche recognition, meaning recognising Hamas as the legitimate state authority on par with other world govermnents.
>Deputy Prime Minister Richard Marles told Insiders that all members of the Labor caucus were a team, and Labor served in parliament because it was a party, not an individual.
>He said Senator Payman would not be a senator "if not for the fact" Labor was next to her name.
Lmao kinda true
>But of course, she wants the funding and the support of a major party while pushing an independent agenda.
Almost like wanting the funding and support of western society whilst pushing an independent cultural and religious agenda.
Didn't she say she wanted to "normalise" the wearing of the hijab? Was there any nuance in her statement saying that she wanted to normalise it among Muslims living in Australia, or women generally in Australia (regardless of their religious beliefs, or lack thereof)?
How could she be part of a party that supports LGBT rights ? The same rule of Quaranic law that outlaws LGBT rights is also what mandates her to wear the hijab
We don’t know, she wasn’t in parliament then, and maybe she would’ve “fell in line” like Penny wong did, to put her survival in the party before what her morals tell her
To be fair, she would probably get her office vandalised if she *didn't* vote yes to recognition.
A certain crowd has a history targeting political offices over this debate: [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-19/josh-burns-office-vandalised-palestinian-gaza-israel/103995530](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-19/josh-burns-office-vandalised-palestinian-gaza-israel/103995530)
It's called **Ukhuwah.**
It is the isla mic concept of brotherhood which emphasises unity & solidarity amongst Muslims no matter where they are the in the world.
In the teachings there is a belief that isl am is the top priority in their lives. It is not just the rel igeon but a comprehensive way of life that guides actions, decisions and interactions.
In my opinion this is one of the reasons why she crossed the floor.
**edit**: She's been suspended: "If Senator Payman decides she will respect the caucus and her Labor colleagues she can return, but until then Senator Payman is suspended from the right to participate in federal parliamentary Labor Party caucus meetings and processes,"
Note that Husic, whilst Muslim and publically pro-Palestinian, still votes with Labor caucus. Burns and Dreyfus who are Jewish and pro-Israel do the same. Both Burns and Dreyfus have been very, very quiet publically until Bandt and the Greens started pushing various pieces of legislation for the recognition of a Palestinian state out of order, which is probably very indicative as to just how much Payman fucked up as far as the Labor caucus is concerned
It's not a matter of Muslim, or for that matter, religious/ethnic minority MPs and Senators. It's Payman showing her 'ambition' to be a one-term wonder in the same vein as Lydia Thorpe because party resolutions in private aren't to her liking.
This is a very underestimated point.
How many Muslims in Australia can truly say they respect the laws of Australia more than the Sharia law?
Can they truly consider non-muslim Australians as equals (as opposed to considering them as Kaffirs destined for eternal punishment)?
This is a stupid train of thought. Muslims have been part of Australia for decades. There are almost a million of them living here..
Australia has been at war with Islamic countries for 2 decades thanks to assisting the US in their middle Eastern wars. Did we see an epidemic of hundreds of thousands of Muslim Australians attacking the country?
Honestly I'd advise you to knock that thinking off because it's the kind of thing racists come up with all the damn time.
I don't remember you answering mine. If you want to paint everyone in a particular group under the same brush, a negative light, then guess what? That's pretty racist. I don't care how much you've suffered. It will never give you the right to judge an entire group of people being persecuted for their faith.
You're an extremist.
How the hell do you get racist out of that. I was stating an observation, not an opinion. Your definition of racism seems to be very loose.
Don't make light of the serious term that racist is. You be little victims of real racism when you throw the term around so loosely. Shame on you.
Look, there needs to be further understanding regarding the rules in Islam.
1. If someone (even Muslim) kidnapped an innocent person, you have a right to defend that person. Because in this context the person, Muslim or not is wrong.
2. In Islam, if you are on a Battlefield (using this example cause I'm assuming you're talking about war times) and an enemy combatant is actually fleeing away, because they no longer are wanting to fight. It is now Haram (not valid) for you to kill this person as it doesn't fall in the category of self defence.
Reson why I say this is there is a massive emphasis on human life, and killing anybody unjustly is a major sin. Islam actually empathises peace, but gives people the right to defend themselves and others if needed. But certain rules need to be met for it to be islamically valid.
Even at the time of Prophets Mohammed they lived in peace with the Christians, to the point where the Prophet Mohammed was welcomed to use the church as a sheltered place to pray rather than outside.
I've been born and raised in Australia, and the best thing about being here honestly is the multiculturalism. Especially being from Melbourne, you're friend groups are unique, and there's actually space for everybody to live how they choose.
I understand people don't like it when ideologies get shoved down anybodys throat, but the same can be said for any community. I know people who are queer but don't shove it down my throat, and I'm Muslim and don't shove it down their throat. If anything, she'll help me to make sure I don't miss my prayers while I'm at work and at night we'll go out to grab a meal with her partner with zero mention of the fact we both like having Sex with women.
I'm just saying whether Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Budist or Jewish or whatever group you can think of. There's questionable people in all sectors which make the majority look bad, and isn't fair for anybody including myself to paint everyone with the same brush.
This is a stupid thought no? Australia Has Gone war with Muslim countries in the last 20 years by following the US. Did any Muslim Australian or politician do anything out of the ordinary here compared to your average Aussie? She's just protesting a fucking genocide here and labor party platform vehemently talks about recognizing Palestine as a state. All of a sudden it's taboo?
SHe is not advocating for sharia or whatever that nonsense. You are nuts. What about the 800k Muslims living in this country? Are they also being religious zealots and national security threats?
> Why doesn't she lobby as hard for this cause or others
Aus has a more active hand in the current Palestine Genocide by following the lead of our allies, such as the US, UK, and Canada. In fact, like our allies, we sell weapons to Israel, weapons being used in a genocide. I don't know about you but I don't want weapons going to a country committing genocide.
Please be serious and avoid this whataboutism for next time.
Religion makes its way into politicas now a lot less than it used to.
A big one in australian political history would be when catholic people in australia largely went against ww1 conscription. The catholic church for its part did not take a side but catholics being often irish did not want to be forced to be fighting for the brits.
I mean id say thats in the national interest; the position catholics and the working class by and large took but at the time most in gov and anglicans were all for it and were not happy...
And britian and australia were basically indivisible. Ie to say no to conscription was considered by many australians disloyal to britain and by extension australia.
Does Scott Morrison arbitrarily saying he'll move our embassy to Jerusalem count? Breaking with a very longstanding bipartisan policy that Tel Aviv is the capital?
He also belongs to a nutjob apocalyptic cult that believes (like all NACs) that the end times are near, and somehow that ties in with a big showdown in Jerusalem - the restoration of the temple.
It's a common enough theme in American evangelical churches also.
tbf, he was also probably hoping to not lose Wentworth with its sizeable Jewish vote, but still impossible to rule out his own motivations.
**Jaws theme plays**
🤦♀️
This, is exactly, one of the reasons Labor sticks to their Party rules. But they shouldn't expell her for having views, especially those that are completely reasonable and include the overall party stance on the issue.
So they didn't expell her. Good policy.
You mean, the kind of war that we would genuinely defend our country? Or the kind when we blindly follow the US.
The first instance is unlikely because no middle eastern islamic country would invade us. And inodnesia / malaysia are majority muslim but have so many economical ties with us that it wouldn’t be wise to invade us.
So in the case if us following the US to attack another country, we are in the wrong. And Australian muslims have the right to object these wars that are run to fund the military industrial complex.
Ok, she hd the guts to say it as it is. She opposed Australia supporting Israel in the genocide. How is that in any way related to her breaking the rules of national security? the only thing she broke was her national party line and she was punished for that.
You gave a hypothetical view of if we go to war with a muslim country, where would her loyalty lie, of course any Australian(muslim or not) loyalty should lie with Australia, but they have the right to oppose any dumb decision to invade another country made by dumb politicians. Iraq is your example.
Mind you she has renounced her Afghan citizenship. So she is as Australian as the rest of us.
She never officially renounced her Afghanistan citizenship ([due to the American withdrawal it was not possible](https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/taliban-takeover-prevents-labor-senate-hopeful-from-renouncing-afghan-citizenship-20220427-p5agkg.html)) So I'd expect to see her allegiances being challenged over this, it's not looking good for her career at the moment.
Lebanon is only slightly over 50% Muslim, the President is required by the Constitution to be Christian. As for pro Israel views, a significant portion of the population was pro-Israel enough that they formed an Israeli puppet state that existed for 15 years.
Lebanon isn’t really an extremist country dude. They literally have Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press in their constitution - Australia doesn’t have that.
Whatever the constitution says Hezbollah runs Lebanon get your facts right.
Corruption is sky high it is failed state.
Who got convicted for the huge explosion in Beirut port?
Just like anyone expressing anti Israel sentiments in Israel? I'm not certain what your point is.
There are no good guys in this horrific war that has been going on for ever. Fuck, the Christians sent crusade after crusade there to kill everyone that didn't agree with them. Only reason they aren't still involved is that the major Christian countries have a much higher quality of life. I guess the USA is a Christian nation, with their government all strongly religious. And they have been bombing the shit out of that area and making sure to back brutal governments and still sell weapons to terrorist groups. So I guess maybe the Christians are still involved in all the killing there.
Ignorance is bliss and you must be very happy.
There are daily demos in Israel against the government.
No denying that some crusades were genocidal but not all.
I don't oppose her views.
Where are her protests on women being killed in Muslim countries for not wearing right clothes, reading a book....
It is easy to protest in Oz
[Aged like milk](https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/fatima-payman-suspended-from-labor-after-crisis-talks-with-pm-over-palestine-20240630-p5jpux.html)
Not really. Winter break is coming. It’s like getting suspended from school before the holidays. Doesn’t mean much.
Guarantee she’ll be back after the winter break like nothing happened
Probably not, because we lost the war in Afghanistan and the Taliban are in control now, exactly why she's here, since 5 years of age.
And I don't think they hold elections at all, do they?
PS - Senator, not Minister.
>Labor Party rules do not permit members to vote against the caucus position. It is the first time a Labor politician has crossed the floor while Labor was in government since 1988.
This is the real problem. It's a massive subversion of democracy to have a major political party whose members are required to always represent the party in our parliament, rather than their constituents.
Very good point, i susspose she made her bed tho? She could of run as a independent knowing what Labours positions are.
She has upset alot of people in the ALP and i wonder if she will ever recover from this, Senator wong has been vocal as when she didn't cross the floor in 2008 on Same sex marriage, so we will see what comes out of it.
It is hard to believe how pathetic albanese is, although we saw that at the start when there were bullying allegations against a woman and albanese did nothing.
Off topic here but just imagine if all religion was exempt from Australian politics imagine how much better our government would be able function without the need for religion and all the bullshit that comes with it
She's been here since she was 5, fleeing the Taliban (you remember those guys so evil we had to go to war against them?) and is an Aussie citizen by definition because otherwise she couldn't be in Parliament.
It's as much her country as it is yours or mine.
Imagine getting your knickers in a knot so badly because someone crossed the floor in a Parliamentary vote that you'd want a citizen to piss off?
Imagine holding that level of seething bigotry.
Imagine escaping the Taliban because you’re oppressed by fundamentalist Islam then crossing the floor to side with Islamic fundamentalists in Palestine.
idk, maybe you could look up fundamentalism in a dictionary, but in short it's a desire to set up a system of very strict adherence to supposed religious laws.
Unless you can cite any clear evidence of the Palestinians having similar doctrines to the Taliban or ISIS, I'd say this is BS.
Besides, everyone here would do the exact same if the UN plonked a new country where you lived, and that country abused you and treated you like 2nd class citizens.
This place goes into conniptions enough over non-binding UN treaties and peaceful immigration, imagine if those immigrants came armed and supported by US forces.
Are you saying Palestine would have a similar doctrine as the Taliban if Israel didn't keep them in check?
Which new country was plonked, didn't the Jews live there from the start?
If the Palestinians wanted freedom they could have accepted any of a million peace deals they’ve been offered over the last 50 years, and taken the tens upon tens of billions of dollars of aid they’ve been given to turn Gaza into Singapore on the Mediterranean. Instead, they refused, spent billions of dollars on tunnels and weapons, and launched countless terrorist attacks.
Imagine confusing fundamentalist terrorism and freedom.
Yeah, when I was a teenage edgelord I'd taunt people in Che Guevara T-shirts with that same taunt also.
Don't know the detailed history of every peace talk and I suspect you don't either but it takes 2 to tango and neither side knows how to even do the Macarena.
Response to what? You haven't made a single substantiated point.
If you accuse the Palestinians of rejecting all negotiations then (as per my point above) so did the Israelis in rejecting all the Palestinian positions.
Ergo, the Israelis prefer building walls and conducting state terrorism, according to your own logic. They must also be fundamentalists, again according to your own logic.
Both the IDF and Hamas are a pack of cunts- both as evil as the other. There are just as terrible atrocities happening in the world RIGHT NOW- but the media report on this particular war with far more frequency. Peace in the middle east will never occur - both sides tied to extreme religious views and tied to apocalyptic fantasies.
Here’s a link (below) to what is happening in Sudan, but we don’t hear about it, because of Israel and Palestine.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sudan-civil-war-could-see-2-million-starve-to-death-aid-agency-world-is-not-watching/
I’m not sure why politicians don’t understand their party is their employer, and they play on a team.
The rest of us can’t go online and condescend our boss or go against collective decisions made by our team.
What makes politicians any different?
LMAO at the stress Albo and co. must be feeling about how this affects the western Sydney seats.
I could've told the whole country 40 years ago that political parties would become beholden to Islamic communities. Totally incompatible with Western cultures.
People whinge when politicians only ever vote party lines. The moment someone displays some actual democracy and represents their constituents, they whinge about that too.
You can respect someone's right to vote their conscience without having to agree with them, and you do not have to be a Muslim to think that a two state solution might be worth a try.
It been offered multiple times before, scuttled by self-indulgent, corrupt Pali politics.
This cycle of violence will never end. Palestinians will never relinquish the want to kill Jews, like most Arabs.
Some truisms about Palestinian leadership:
- Whenever they choose violence, things ALWAYS get worse
- They can be relied upon to drain the fat piggy bank of international aid (to the cost of the Palestinian in the street), content in the knowledge that the world will never get tired of their bullshit and tell them to make a peace agreement or get cut off for good.
A simplistic one sided slogan that puts all the blame on one side and completely ignores the history of the region.
Prior to forced establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 the population of the area was about 30% Jewish. The Arabs living there didn't have a massive problem with their Jews. They had a problem with outsiders coming into their region and taking over by force of arms which most people would. Outsiders that were seeking a homeland because of historical violence perpetuated on them all across Europe and much of it not from Muslims. Don't forget that the Zionists were also offered other regions but rejected them.
> Prior to forced establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 the population of the area was about 30% Jewish. The Arabs living there didn't have a massive problem with their Jews.
And then *hours* later tried to install an SS recruiter as President of All-Palestine? Bullshit.
Of course, the Arabs that didn't have a problem with Jews stayed, became Israeli and enjoyed stability & freedom never heard of in the region.
The ones that left in 1948 during the fictitious nakba, encouraged by the Arab league to move so the Arab army could finish the total extermination of the Jews in the region (after thousands of years trying) are the ones keen to return - to finish killing the Jews and most likely Arab Israeli's too.
I guess under our democracy, she has a right to say what she wants. In Australia that means she has to accept that what she says may have consequences. Can Labor afford upsetting its Western Sydney constituents by trying to gag the senator?
Nope. And they haven't gagged her. She is suspended rather than expelled. She can return when she chooses to align with the party's policy. They're showing solidarity with party rules whilst respecting that she has a stance on this that she doesn'tfeel she can compromise on, like a good proportion of the country, and who could expect her to not cross the floor on this issue. Hypocritical in the extreme. Anyway, watch Israel launch war against Hezbollah in Lebanon, and kill Lebonese that aren't related to Hezbollah or even muslim... then watch the Lebanese community come out too... It will be interesting who the government sides with then.
It's just a matter of time. Israel can't just keep murdering unchecked forever
Why are your empathic and logical conclusions being downvoted so hard
People here don't have brains, they just parrot what they hear on the news
You can't know for sure, you just don't like their opinions.
As an elected member of the Senate, for the good state of Western Australia, i wonder if she is really representing the views of her constitutes, of which she is there to represent ?
Doesn't matter what her constituents views are. The ALP says you've got to represent the views of ALP Caucus and vote accordingly, not represent your constituents.
I can tell you from my anecdotal experience both for myself and many people I know. She absolutely is. Australia is on the wrong side of history right now. We are supporting a genocidal and tyrannical government in Israel. I do not what my tax dollars contributing. I commend Senator Payman for her stance against this absurdity. She is representing me and many people from WA with respect, integrity and dignity.
That war started by Hamas when they slaughtered, raped, and kidnapped Israeli citizen just going about their normal daily lives ? And Israel was just supposed to cop that, turn the other cheek ?And I can tell you I know a lot of people too who agree exactly with my views...
I mostly agree with you, but weren't these illegal settlements that were attacked? Still absolutely does not justify attacking them, especially in the most inhumane brutal way that Hamas chose. But both sides are at fault to a degree I think, although Hamas is definitely far more at fault.
One site was a musical festival...a bunch of young kids just having a fun time......did you not see that footage?
Yeah, I know about that. I thought when you said "going about their daily lives", you were referring to the ones living in in the kibbutzim.
No, you were just being selective, to just disagree...and trying to use a bullshit point to cover it. The boundaries of the Gaza strip have been fixed since 48...and re-enforced and agreed to under the Oslo agreement. So there were no illegal settlements.
Tell that to the Jews living in the Golan Heights. You obviously have an agenda.
So do you obviously...and learn some geography and history. The Golan Heights was Syrian territory.taken over in the 5 day wars and used very conveniently in the Yon Kupper wars to wipeout the Syrian army The West bank is where the illegal settlements are taking place which is under Palestinian Authority control. Do I support that, No, nor do I try to make up bullshit reasons to excuse an internationally recognised terrorist actions, like your doing !
Peace, brother.
Dude. Learn some history. Even just recent history. Check out the life there for those in Gaza and those in the West Bank (not governed by Hamas).
Oh I don't agree with what's going on in the Westbank or the ousting of people from their homes that they have lived in for generations in Jerusalem. But how about you learn some history yourself, about these terrorist groups who are acting in the name of Palestine ? 72 Munich games, Entebbe rescue, can't recall how many other hijackings that were done, or bombings of innocent civilians, in the name of the "Palestinian cause". Let alone how many rocket and drone attacks that were aimed at Israel from Hamas held Gaza strip. While you're at it, look into how the whole world turned it's back on the Jews from 1933 onwards till 1945, and see why the nation's anthem is "Never Again !" Hamas fucked around, and now it's finding out what happens when you do fuck with Israel...
I dunno, the "and Israel should just cop that and turn the other cheek" suggests you think that people living under that regime should just cop what's happening to them. HAMAS isn't finding out what happens when you fuck with Israel. The thousands of civilians that the Israeli government is using modern USA military weapons to kill wholesale is. HAMAS is a terrorist organization and anyone siding with them is fucked in the head. They have killed countless civilians. Not as many as the Israeli government has killed, but it's not like killing less civilians means you are suddenly the good guys. I was fucking disgusted and Albo made the statement that Australia supports the Israeli governments right to defend itself. There are 0 good guys fighting in that conflict, and if you go back over the last 70 years (as in the modern history) you will see slaughter after slaughter by both the Israeli government and the Palestinian movement. The number of war crimes committed there should make anyone sick. The only relationship we should have there is sanctioning the Israeli government, sanctioning anyone interacting with HAMAS, and providing humanitarian relief. Anything else means we are supporting one genocidal war crime committing organisation.
So what should of Israel done then after Oct 7th ? For once Albo was right, every country has the right to defend itself and to protect its citizens. Also hate to be the bearer of bad news, but till Islamists recognise Israel's right to exist, this shit is still going to be going on for another 70 yrs...
Not have executed as many civilians as they have and created the circumstances for HAMAS to thrive? There have been multiple attempts to make Jerusalem a neutral location, the UN tried to make it an international neutral zone at one point. As ironic as this comparison is, it would be like saying that the Germans were right to execute people who sympahised with the Jewish people and who were part of the resistance, because "what were they supposed to do"? Not kill civilians in job lots because they believe something different to you? And the situation is so fucked because Israel exists due to colonization, but it's been there long enough you can't just say ok, pack up and go. It would be like if the indigenous population here in Australia were organized and had access to modern weaponry. You couldn't just ask the non indigenous population to leave, where would we go? But if we spent year after year killing the indigenous population for believing something different we would be the good guys either. I don't imagine the islamists will ever recognize Israels right to exist anymore than Israel will recognize Palestines right to exist. Because religion is fucked and it has been the excuse humans have used for millenia to commit horrific violence on one another. The western world particularly dislikes Islam. And I get it, the countrys that it is the primary religion in are largely incredibly oppressive to their people, women especially. But how does that happen? By the rest of the world insisting on continuing to destabilize the region. Which leads to warlords and dictators who use religion as a method to stay in control. Fuck, the number of regimes the US alone have toppled because another guy would listen to what they say is enough to have made fundamentalist Islam spread everywhere. Look at Iran, they were on their way to becoming modernized and less religious, women had rights and could vote, they had even banned forcing women to wear veils or hijabs. But Iran also nationalised its oil industry and the US couldn't have that. Oil is much more important than human rights. So they and the UK backed a military coup that toppled the elected PM and installed a religious fundamentalist as the new leader, since he was happy to listen to the USA if he got to roll back all the progressive laws. And it's not like Christianity isnt oppressive. The USA, a supposedly modern first world country has banned abortions. Sorry women, you don't get to have a say in this anymore because it makes God angry. They are now pushing for an end to no-fault divorce. As in women can't divorce their husbands unless they can prove he has been at fault of some indiscretion. They have engaged in literal book burning, yes literal as in they stacked them in a pile and burned them, because the books had positive stories about the LGBTQ community. But I don't see people on here raging that the USA needs to be stopped, and that Christianity is an evil and oppressive religion. The only reason Israel have the military might to just kill civilians at whim is that the USA send them stupid amounts of weaponry because they view Israel as their military foothold in the middle East. It's been directly said by multiple US politicians. As long as Israel is happy to let the US use them as a staging group, they can commit as many atrocities as they like and the US will back them (which I guess means Australia will back them). Your view of this whole thing just seems to be extremely one sided. There is no justification for the crimes either side have committed. And neither has any intention of recognizing the others right to exist if history is any indication.
There was a ceasefire before October 7, and ironically, Netanyahu wouldn’t have continued that long in power as the protests were crazy against him. The weekend soldiers who were missing during October 7, were boycotting they’re jobs due to protest of Netanyahu, but Hamas kept him in power by starting the war, and he gets to stay on as a wartime prime minister with extended powers and no elections in the near future until the war ends
Just because there was a ceasefire, doesn't mean other things weren't going on. On both sides. When the weaker party to the war pulls a massive stunt like this you know they're pissed off, doesn't make it ok, but shows they're pissed off. The retaliation by Israel is just as bad as October 7, they are also pissed off at being caught off guard... but no one seems to give a shit that they're both the same with behaviour, with one having significantly more political power and fire-power than the other. So yes. There should be an end to it. There should be a two state solution. Both Israel and Hamas should face international criminal court. And Yes, Israel has significantly more power, and Hamas does not represent all Palastinians. It's really not fucking hard to not take absolute sides.
In the past 18 years since Israel left Gaza in 2006, they have had 9 elections, and they have had 5 in the last 5 years. That goes to show how much the local Israelis trust their government, and the level of political stability there. Hamas on the other hand, enjoy wide support even amongst the people who were polled. They haven’t held elections since 2006. If Israel’s government was representative of their people, they wouldn’t have had so many elections in the near past, this doesn’t indicate that the Israeli government had the support of their people, because as alluded to earlier, some members of the Israeli border force were out protesting Netanyahu when October 7 happened. It would’ve been highly unlikely that Hamas would’ve gone that deep into Israel if they were on duty. Ironically, it is Hamas who have kept Netanyahu in power, with extended powers as a wartime PM, whose powers only dissolve if a ceasefire is reached and/or hostages are released. However since Gaza haven’t had elections since 2006 and Hamas holds strong support even before and after October 7, it can be said that Hamas is representative of the people’s views there.
Cool stuff man, you've changed my mind actually. Let's bomb and burn all the children and women of Gaza. Thanks so much for making me better and more informed person.
Well if the people you let run your country and you support them, use you as human shields as they hide underground like cowards, didums...you dance in the street on October 7th, can't bitch when you cope it back bigger and meaner.. that's how war works.
Why you still talking brother? I agree with you. All the children in Palestine should be burned alive. Thank you so much for teaching me how vile I was. I'm so glad I'm enlightened now.
Your part of the problem as to why the war won’t come to an end, you’d rather them die than peace be brought through. Have a nice day
There was a ceasefire before October 7, and ironically, Netanyahu wouldn’t have continued that long in power as the protests were crazy against him. The weekend soldiers who were missing during October 7, were boycotting they’re jobs due to protest of Netanyahu, but Hamas kept him in power by starting the war, and he gets to stay on as a wartime prime minister with extended powers and no elections in the near future until the war ends
She wants Labor to sack her
100% this.
>Senator Payman said she had no intention of quitting the party. Then run as an independent if you're going to break party rules. But of course, she wants the funding and the support of a major party while pushing an independent agenda. In the debate leading up to the vote, both Labor and Liberal tried to put qualifications on the recognition of statehood but Payman said yes to a carte blanche recognition, meaning recognising Hamas as the legitimate state authority on par with other world govermnents. >Deputy Prime Minister Richard Marles told Insiders that all members of the Labor caucus were a team, and Labor served in parliament because it was a party, not an individual. >He said Senator Payman would not be a senator "if not for the fact" Labor was next to her name. Lmao kinda true
>But of course, she wants the funding and the support of a major party while pushing an independent agenda. Almost like wanting the funding and support of western society whilst pushing an independent cultural and religious agenda.
Didn't she say she wanted to "normalise" the wearing of the hijab? Was there any nuance in her statement saying that she wanted to normalise it among Muslims living in Australia, or women generally in Australia (regardless of their religious beliefs, or lack thereof)?
“Muslim senator would still vote to recognise Muslim state, seeing as she is still a Muslim.” Thanks for representing WA fatima.
Religion always comes first.
How could she be part of a party that supports LGBT rights ? The same rule of Quaranic law that outlaws LGBT rights is also what mandates her to wear the hijab
Did she vote in favour of same-sex marriage, or against it?
We don’t know, she wasn’t in parliament then, and maybe she would’ve “fell in line” like Penny wong did, to put her survival in the party before what her morals tell her
Wonder if she will get her office vandalised. Doubt it and hope not
To be fair, she would probably get her office vandalised if she *didn't* vote yes to recognition. A certain crowd has a history targeting political offices over this debate: [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-19/josh-burns-office-vandalised-palestinian-gaza-israel/103995530](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-19/josh-burns-office-vandalised-palestinian-gaza-israel/103995530)
Can you replace the word "Muslim" with Christianity?
It's called **Ukhuwah.** It is the isla mic concept of brotherhood which emphasises unity & solidarity amongst Muslims no matter where they are the in the world. In the teachings there is a belief that isl am is the top priority in their lives. It is not just the rel igeon but a comprehensive way of life that guides actions, decisions and interactions. In my opinion this is one of the reasons why she crossed the floor. **edit**: She's been suspended: "If Senator Payman decides she will respect the caucus and her Labor colleagues she can return, but until then Senator Payman is suspended from the right to participate in federal parliamentary Labor Party caucus meetings and processes,"
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Islam 💯
Lol have a guess where her loyalties truly lie. I'll give you the tip it's not here.
Note that Husic, whilst Muslim and publically pro-Palestinian, still votes with Labor caucus. Burns and Dreyfus who are Jewish and pro-Israel do the same. Both Burns and Dreyfus have been very, very quiet publically until Bandt and the Greens started pushing various pieces of legislation for the recognition of a Palestinian state out of order, which is probably very indicative as to just how much Payman fucked up as far as the Labor caucus is concerned It's not a matter of Muslim, or for that matter, religious/ethnic minority MPs and Senators. It's Payman showing her 'ambition' to be a one-term wonder in the same vein as Lydia Thorpe because party resolutions in private aren't to her liking.
This is a very underestimated point. How many Muslims in Australia can truly say they respect the laws of Australia more than the Sharia law? Can they truly consider non-muslim Australians as equals (as opposed to considering them as Kaffirs destined for eternal punishment)?
This is a stupid train of thought. Muslims have been part of Australia for decades. There are almost a million of them living here.. Australia has been at war with Islamic countries for 2 decades thanks to assisting the US in their middle Eastern wars. Did we see an epidemic of hundreds of thousands of Muslim Australians attacking the country? Honestly I'd advise you to knock that thinking off because it's the kind of thing racists come up with all the damn time.
You answered your own question, attitudes will change when the numbers increase.
You're extremely islamophobic And racist.
I come from a country which has gone through the horrors of extremist Islamic terrorism, how about you?
So every Muslim is an extremist? Is that it?
You did not answer the question
I don't remember you answering mine. If you want to paint everyone in a particular group under the same brush, a negative light, then guess what? That's pretty racist. I don't care how much you've suffered. It will never give you the right to judge an entire group of people being persecuted for their faith.
Which point are you referring to? Respecting Sharia over Australian law, or considering people of other religions as equals?
It's very true actually. I grew up with heaps of Muslim friends. I knew their families well. Nice people but no loyalty to anything other than Islam.
You're racist.
You're an extremist. How the hell do you get racist out of that. I was stating an observation, not an opinion. Your definition of racism seems to be very loose. Don't make light of the serious term that racist is. You be little victims of real racism when you throw the term around so loosely. Shame on you.
Shame on you for insinuating they have no loyalty to anyone else, because the implication is then that they can't be trusted. That's racism.
Its not racism and didnt say that exactly. Ask any practising
So for a practicing Christian Christianity comes first before their country? Think about what you're saying here.
Look, there needs to be further understanding regarding the rules in Islam. 1. If someone (even Muslim) kidnapped an innocent person, you have a right to defend that person. Because in this context the person, Muslim or not is wrong. 2. In Islam, if you are on a Battlefield (using this example cause I'm assuming you're talking about war times) and an enemy combatant is actually fleeing away, because they no longer are wanting to fight. It is now Haram (not valid) for you to kill this person as it doesn't fall in the category of self defence. Reson why I say this is there is a massive emphasis on human life, and killing anybody unjustly is a major sin. Islam actually empathises peace, but gives people the right to defend themselves and others if needed. But certain rules need to be met for it to be islamically valid. Even at the time of Prophets Mohammed they lived in peace with the Christians, to the point where the Prophet Mohammed was welcomed to use the church as a sheltered place to pray rather than outside. I've been born and raised in Australia, and the best thing about being here honestly is the multiculturalism. Especially being from Melbourne, you're friend groups are unique, and there's actually space for everybody to live how they choose. I understand people don't like it when ideologies get shoved down anybodys throat, but the same can be said for any community. I know people who are queer but don't shove it down my throat, and I'm Muslim and don't shove it down their throat. If anything, she'll help me to make sure I don't miss my prayers while I'm at work and at night we'll go out to grab a meal with her partner with zero mention of the fact we both like having Sex with women. I'm just saying whether Muslim, Christian, Catholic, Budist or Jewish or whatever group you can think of. There's questionable people in all sectors which make the majority look bad, and isn't fair for anybody including myself to paint everyone with the same brush.
This is a stupid thought no? Australia Has Gone war with Muslim countries in the last 20 years by following the US. Did any Muslim Australian or politician do anything out of the ordinary here compared to your average Aussie? She's just protesting a fucking genocide here and labor party platform vehemently talks about recognizing Palestine as a state. All of a sudden it's taboo?
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SHe is not advocating for sharia or whatever that nonsense. You are nuts. What about the 800k Muslims living in this country? Are they also being religious zealots and national security threats?
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> Why doesn't she lobby as hard for this cause or others Aus has a more active hand in the current Palestine Genocide by following the lead of our allies, such as the US, UK, and Canada. In fact, like our allies, we sell weapons to Israel, weapons being used in a genocide. I don't know about you but I don't want weapons going to a country committing genocide. Please be serious and avoid this whataboutism for next time.
Funny how no one asks this question of Christians. Wonder why.
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Religion makes its way into politicas now a lot less than it used to. A big one in australian political history would be when catholic people in australia largely went against ww1 conscription. The catholic church for its part did not take a side but catholics being often irish did not want to be forced to be fighting for the brits. I mean id say thats in the national interest; the position catholics and the working class by and large took but at the time most in gov and anglicans were all for it and were not happy... And britian and australia were basically indivisible. Ie to say no to conscription was considered by many australians disloyal to britain and by extension australia.
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Im not. As i said; religion makes its way into politics a lot less now than it used to. Giving an example how it used to.
Global war on terror lmao. Any abortion access debate
When was the last time abortion access has been a topic of political debate?
Does Scott Morrison arbitrarily saying he'll move our embassy to Jerusalem count? Breaking with a very longstanding bipartisan policy that Tel Aviv is the capital?
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He also belongs to a nutjob apocalyptic cult that believes (like all NACs) that the end times are near, and somehow that ties in with a big showdown in Jerusalem - the restoration of the temple. It's a common enough theme in American evangelical churches also. tbf, he was also probably hoping to not lose Wentworth with its sizeable Jewish vote, but still impossible to rule out his own motivations.
**Jaws theme plays** 🤦♀️ This, is exactly, one of the reasons Labor sticks to their Party rules. But they shouldn't expell her for having views, especially those that are completely reasonable and include the overall party stance on the issue. So they didn't expell her. Good policy.
You mean, the kind of war that we would genuinely defend our country? Or the kind when we blindly follow the US. The first instance is unlikely because no middle eastern islamic country would invade us. And inodnesia / malaysia are majority muslim but have so many economical ties with us that it wouldn’t be wise to invade us. So in the case if us following the US to attack another country, we are in the wrong. And Australian muslims have the right to object these wars that are run to fund the military industrial complex.
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Ok, she hd the guts to say it as it is. She opposed Australia supporting Israel in the genocide. How is that in any way related to her breaking the rules of national security? the only thing she broke was her national party line and she was punished for that. You gave a hypothetical view of if we go to war with a muslim country, where would her loyalty lie, of course any Australian(muslim or not) loyalty should lie with Australia, but they have the right to oppose any dumb decision to invade another country made by dumb politicians. Iraq is your example. Mind you she has renounced her Afghan citizenship. So she is as Australian as the rest of us.
That and the fear of her community hurting her if she didn’t
She never officially renounced her Afghanistan citizenship ([due to the American withdrawal it was not possible](https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/taliban-takeover-prevents-labor-senate-hopeful-from-renouncing-afghan-citizenship-20220427-p5agkg.html)) So I'd expect to see her allegiances being challenged over this, it's not looking good for her career at the moment.
Have the balls to expel her if it's that big an issue for them
This doesn’t apply to UAE or Jordan tho, even Egypt has a massive land border with Gaza
She has the right to express her views in Oz. Let her try any pro Israel views in a muslim country like Lebanon = death.
Lebanon is only slightly over 50% Muslim, the President is required by the Constitution to be Christian. As for pro Israel views, a significant portion of the population was pro-Israel enough that they formed an Israeli puppet state that existed for 15 years.
Lebanon isn’t really an extremist country dude. They literally have Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press in their constitution - Australia doesn’t have that.
Whatever the constitution says Hezbollah runs Lebanon get your facts right. Corruption is sky high it is failed state. Who got convicted for the huge explosion in Beirut port?
Just like anyone expressing anti Israel sentiments in Israel? I'm not certain what your point is. There are no good guys in this horrific war that has been going on for ever. Fuck, the Christians sent crusade after crusade there to kill everyone that didn't agree with them. Only reason they aren't still involved is that the major Christian countries have a much higher quality of life. I guess the USA is a Christian nation, with their government all strongly religious. And they have been bombing the shit out of that area and making sure to back brutal governments and still sell weapons to terrorist groups. So I guess maybe the Christians are still involved in all the killing there.
Ignorance is bliss and you must be very happy. There are daily demos in Israel against the government. No denying that some crusades were genocidal but not all.
What a great reason to oppose her expressing a view you don't like.
I don't oppose her views. Where are her protests on women being killed in Muslim countries for not wearing right clothes, reading a book.... It is easy to protest in Oz
Then what the fuck are you even trying to say? Other countries are other countries?
I don’t oppose her view I oppose her religion.
Cool. Is that related somehow to what they voted on?
This is peak representing myself rather than my constituents
Yep and Albo will do nothing again and she knows it.
[Aged like milk](https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/fatima-payman-suspended-from-labor-after-crisis-talks-with-pm-over-palestine-20240630-p5jpux.html)
Not expelled though. She got a light touch. Suspension will get quietly lifted in a few weeks when everyone stops paying attention
Moving the goal posts much
Not really. Winter break is coming. It’s like getting suspended from school before the holidays. Doesn’t mean much. Guarantee she’ll be back after the winter break like nothing happened
When the PM can’t even enforce labor’s strictest and most important rules, you know he’s just a puppet.
He isn’t a puppet. He is just spineless.
same thing i think
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Huh
Probably not, because we lost the war in Afghanistan and the Taliban are in control now, exactly why she's here, since 5 years of age. And I don't think they hold elections at all, do they? PS - Senator, not Minister.
>Labor Party rules do not permit members to vote against the caucus position. It is the first time a Labor politician has crossed the floor while Labor was in government since 1988. This is the real problem. It's a massive subversion of democracy to have a major political party whose members are required to always represent the party in our parliament, rather than their constituents.
Very good point, i susspose she made her bed tho? She could of run as a independent knowing what Labours positions are. She has upset alot of people in the ALP and i wonder if she will ever recover from this, Senator wong has been vocal as when she didn't cross the floor in 2008 on Same sex marriage, so we will see what comes out of it.
It’s the way they have always been and a position well known to the voting public. Voting for labor means accepting this is how they operate
accepting the position and the salary and perks that come with it means that you accept the conditions as well
Her salary is paid from the Australian treasury, not from the "Labor" Party's bank account.
Ma democracy!
It is hard to believe how pathetic albanese is, although we saw that at the start when there were bullying allegations against a woman and albanese did nothing.
Off topic here but just imagine if all religion was exempt from Australian politics imagine how much better our government would be able function without the need for religion and all the bullshit that comes with it
All religion is exempt except for islam
Well that explains why Australian politics is so f.cked up.... Seems like that pathetic islam religion is just as bad as COVID but only worse
She knows her time in parliament is limited, gotta focus on the next graft.
Doubt it I think we will see more Muslim politicians after next elections
Yep you are right. The greens should be fodder for a young ones type comedy.
Perhaps she she cross the floor right the fuck out of our country?
She's been here since she was 5, fleeing the Taliban (you remember those guys so evil we had to go to war against them?) and is an Aussie citizen by definition because otherwise she couldn't be in Parliament. It's as much her country as it is yours or mine. Imagine getting your knickers in a knot so badly because someone crossed the floor in a Parliamentary vote that you'd want a citizen to piss off? Imagine holding that level of seething bigotry.
Imagine escaping the Taliban because you’re oppressed by fundamentalist Islam then crossing the floor to side with Islamic fundamentalists in Palestine.
Imagine having such a non-nuanced view of the world that you can't tell the difference between a freedom struggle and fUnDaMeNtAlIsM.
What is the difference?
idk, maybe you could look up fundamentalism in a dictionary, but in short it's a desire to set up a system of very strict adherence to supposed religious laws. Unless you can cite any clear evidence of the Palestinians having similar doctrines to the Taliban or ISIS, I'd say this is BS. Besides, everyone here would do the exact same if the UN plonked a new country where you lived, and that country abused you and treated you like 2nd class citizens. This place goes into conniptions enough over non-binding UN treaties and peaceful immigration, imagine if those immigrants came armed and supported by US forces.
Are you saying Palestine would have a similar doctrine as the Taliban if Israel didn't keep them in check? Which new country was plonked, didn't the Jews live there from the start?
No and no.
If the Palestinians wanted freedom they could have accepted any of a million peace deals they’ve been offered over the last 50 years, and taken the tens upon tens of billions of dollars of aid they’ve been given to turn Gaza into Singapore on the Mediterranean. Instead, they refused, spent billions of dollars on tunnels and weapons, and launched countless terrorist attacks. Imagine confusing fundamentalist terrorism and freedom.
Yeah, when I was a teenage edgelord I'd taunt people in Che Guevara T-shirts with that same taunt also. Don't know the detailed history of every peace talk and I suspect you don't either but it takes 2 to tango and neither side knows how to even do the Macarena.
lol tell me you have no response without telling me you have no response
Response to what? You haven't made a single substantiated point. If you accuse the Palestinians of rejecting all negotiations then (as per my point above) so did the Israelis in rejecting all the Palestinian positions. Ergo, the Israelis prefer building walls and conducting state terrorism, according to your own logic. They must also be fundamentalists, again according to your own logic.
Logic isn’t your strong suit, is it Ted?
Still no substantiated points, resorting to ad hominems now. Have a nice day.
Both the IDF and Hamas are a pack of cunts- both as evil as the other. There are just as terrible atrocities happening in the world RIGHT NOW- but the media report on this particular war with far more frequency. Peace in the middle east will never occur - both sides tied to extreme religious views and tied to apocalyptic fantasies. Here’s a link (below) to what is happening in Sudan, but we don’t hear about it, because of Israel and Palestine. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sudan-civil-war-could-see-2-million-starve-to-death-aid-agency-world-is-not-watching/
I’m not sure why politicians don’t understand their party is their employer, and they play on a team. The rest of us can’t go online and condescend our boss or go against collective decisions made by our team. What makes politicians any different?
LMAO at the stress Albo and co. must be feeling about how this affects the western Sydney seats. I could've told the whole country 40 years ago that political parties would become beholden to Islamic communities. Totally incompatible with Western cultures.
People whinge when politicians only ever vote party lines. The moment someone displays some actual democracy and represents their constituents, they whinge about that too. You can respect someone's right to vote their conscience without having to agree with them, and you do not have to be a Muslim to think that a two state solution might be worth a try.
It been offered multiple times before, scuttled by self-indulgent, corrupt Pali politics. This cycle of violence will never end. Palestinians will never relinquish the want to kill Jews, like most Arabs.
Some truisms about Palestinian leadership: - Whenever they choose violence, things ALWAYS get worse - They can be relied upon to drain the fat piggy bank of international aid (to the cost of the Palestinian in the street), content in the knowledge that the world will never get tired of their bullshit and tell them to make a peace agreement or get cut off for good.
A simplistic one sided slogan that puts all the blame on one side and completely ignores the history of the region. Prior to forced establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 the population of the area was about 30% Jewish. The Arabs living there didn't have a massive problem with their Jews. They had a problem with outsiders coming into their region and taking over by force of arms which most people would. Outsiders that were seeking a homeland because of historical violence perpetuated on them all across Europe and much of it not from Muslims. Don't forget that the Zionists were also offered other regions but rejected them.
> Prior to forced establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 the population of the area was about 30% Jewish. The Arabs living there didn't have a massive problem with their Jews. And then *hours* later tried to install an SS recruiter as President of All-Palestine? Bullshit.
Of course, the Arabs that didn't have a problem with Jews stayed, became Israeli and enjoyed stability & freedom never heard of in the region. The ones that left in 1948 during the fictitious nakba, encouraged by the Arab league to move so the Arab army could finish the total extermination of the Jews in the region (after thousands of years trying) are the ones keen to return - to finish killing the Jews and most likely Arab Israeli's too.
>enjoyed stability & freedom never heard of in the region. Said every invader ever who kicked someone off their lands.