I relate to this. And I really resent when people say “It gets better!” Because I’ve been working very hard to make it better. So if my efforts mean nothing and it will only get better through luck, then idk what to do. I don’t like living like this.
Yours and mine both
Smiling just to show you're ok when you're hopeless and broken inside
Feeling so stuck, seeing everyone's success stories just wondering why can't stuff like that happen to you
I'm level 2 diagnosed and my life is significantly better at 25 than it was at 16 ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
It all depends on your circumstances and how your autism symptoms manifest. In general, people usually have an easier time coping with difficulties arising from autism when they're older, as experience allows them to form coping strategies.
I'm glad things are better with you
With me I am 39 now and they have never looked up dude
It's mostly because of the mess that my mental health is, I suppose
Everyone is different, after all
Glad you're doing well
I am not and have lost faith on ever being well
Again, everyone is different
Agreed
Like
"Oh it will get better" says the person with a job and a nice life
If you were in my shoes you'd be just as sad
I mean I don't mean any ill will towards anyone, less so anyone who's got it good but
Heavens to Betsy, TRY TO PUT YOURSELF IN MY SHOES, MAN!
I relate to that. People don’t realize that autism is a neurological disorder, it can’t be cured. You can have treatments, but you’re never going to be ‘okay’ 100%
I think the main point of people saying that is to try to provide some amount of hope. In the recovery program I went through, I learned that hopelessness is usually the greatest and most difficult obstacle because if you genuinely don't believe your life can ever get better, then the odds it gets better diminish significantly.
There's a thing called the Pygmalion effect. It's basically that if we already have an expectation of how something will go, we will subconsciously act in ways that increase the odds of that expectation becoming reality.
Example: if you expect to fail at something. You will subconsciously act in ways that will make to more likely to fail. The increase in failure will reinforce your original expectation, and it will loop, worse and worse.
While it's true that your life might genuinely not improve. Expecting and believing it will never change or get better decreases the odds that it will. That's why it's important to try to give people hope for the future.
There is difference between conscious beliefs and unconscious beliefs. While thinking something negative can be just a bit negative and you can still act normal, still do your part and all work out, unconscious beliefs can corrode your own efforts and achievements from inside.
So people started saying this idiocy that you can't say anything remotely negative because it will make it your fault and no one will even care when it happens again. You can have conflicting conscious and unconscious beliefs for a time, but the unconscious will always win.
This is the truth about what you're talking about.
And things get better the more you learn and mature. It's not time, it's what you're building. It just so happens that I needed to restart repeatedly and get to know my own shortcomings. To be fair, once I realized them through therapy, the next restart (social restart, changing your surroundings and seeing new people where nobody knows you. My last chance was going to the university. It worked really well, but mostly because of what I'd learned about myself.
So while you know what you think, you can't think through your unconscious. Maybe your subconscious could provide some insight, but the truth is that we can only see the signs, the effects and try to think back in our lives when it all started.
The best relationships and the best friendships I have ever had, have grown without me trying to go for it. You don't make a friend, you just fake it till you make it. Act like a friend, respect time and boundaries, never force it, just try to hang out when possible, but don't keep trying that hard to find a day and hour, it comes off as clingy. You can ask for availability, but leave it up to them, try to be a bit decisive and ask if they're available at a specific time that you'd like to go out, happens to work wonders. Then you don't ask much more if they say that they can't. If they want, they probably will suggest another time/place. Then if they don't, you can try again some other time, but trying all the time is just bad too.
But for example:
It can't really be an objective, you just have to make the time you have with other people the best possible. And that is done by not trying to build your relationship with them. It goes with minor and possibly numerous interactions. You don't try to find common ground, no need to try. If you can talk to someone, you can talk about your interest subtly enough, subtly encouraging them to do the same. I actually learn a lot about other things, it's easy to learn when people you talk to have such different areas of interest. Then you go building a conversational foundation, able to talk about anything, mostly asking questions on specific things. "Oh, I've never heard much about this thing you do."-"how long have you been watching/doing/working/studying it?"-"how is it"-"what can you tell me about it.". You can't follow on an explanation with "go on" or make more and more questions forever. If you didn't get enough to make a comment about how you're thinking about it, ask a follow-up question, more details on their explanation. If they sound a bit tired or smth, you try to let them change the subject, ask if there's smth else. It's really hard to keep that up forever. When it's time for you to say something, cause you will have to, try not making it a lecture, start with an overview allowing for follow-up questions, try to facilitate it. Then you don't monologue without allowing for the subject to change. The subject is more of a morphing concept than something that should be fixed. Every beat of it can lead you down another little spiral. If someone starts leading off an aspect of it, follow them for a while, branch out, circle back after that. It's also like a tree and the subject you start with is the base. Sometimes the first or first few subjects won't grow, they wither and die quickly, then your base will be the one that started branching. Don't get too attached to it either, sometimes a branch can be more interesting to keep coming back to because you both finished with the previous one.
A three-way conversation is even more intricate. Sometimes you will be juggling two conversations that interact with one another too and sometimes you'll all be talking about the same thing for a time. I usually like it, personally, because you can be a bit more silent and observe more, then ask a question having had more time and examples.
Hello, you clearly put a lot of thought into this comment, so I want to make an effort to try to understand it and reply to it thoroughly. But I am having a hard time grasping what exactly the message is that you're conveying. Please forgive me if my comprehension of your reply is in any way flawed.
Firstly, I'm aware of the difference between the conscious and unconscious. But I'm no expert so forgive me if my opinion may have some faults. Unconscious beliefs are very difficult to change, but they can be changed. It's not easy, but also not impossible. The first step to changing subconscious beliefs is to become aware of their impact on you. An example being overcoming deeply ingrained self hatred, something I've worked hard to change about myself. Like you say, unconscious beliefs can be corrosive. They can warp your perception of what is real. To a person who beliefs they deserve to suffer and die, their perceptions will naturally shift to accommodate that. Genuine compassion becomes fake. Misfortune becomes justice. And happiness becomes unjustifiable.
You said people have told you an idiocy, that you can't say anything remotely negative. I'm not sure what you mean. I have yet to meet someone who has said something similar to me. I am not advocating that you cannot have negative thoughts and feelings. I'm not advocating that you cannot have negative beliefs. Those are yours to have. All feelings are valid experiences. My point of bringing up the Pygmalion effect is that one should try to be aware of how these beliefs and feelings affect us. If you are suggesting my opinion was idiocy, I find that unnecessarily rude. There are better ways to make a point than just calling something stupid.
The original comment was about people saying "things will get better" in regards to difficulties in life. I don't think that being positively optimistic to someone who is unwell is idiocy. I discussed the concept of hopelessness, the most significant hurdle in wellness. Sure, optimism and positivity aren't usually enough to overcome hopelessness alone, but it can be a small help. Hopelessness is the internal belief things cannot possibly improve, that belief can eventually be changed. I have seen it change. Positivity, generally, contributes more to that change than negativity.
You say the unconscious will always win. I disagree. If that were true, I would have ended my life a long time ago. I would not have been able to push myself to seek help. I would not have made the conscious effort to significantly change. I would not have been able to go 2 years without self harm. And I would not be telling others that I believe they can too.
I really like what you said about how it isn't time that heals and makes things better, but the efforts you have built and things you have learned. I like that concept a lot and might adapt that into my conversations with people. I love what you said about needing to restart to gain a new perspective on yourself. Everybody's road to betterment is different. Sometimes, you just have to pick a new path and start again.
You said you cannot think through your unconscious. That may be true. But all aspects of our consciousness, including unconsciousness, can be explored to some extent. Our unconscious beliefs, those that are core to who we are, can and do change throughout our lives. It doesn't change overnight, but we can influence our core beliefs.
To be completely honest, I really had a hard time with your text about friendship. I couldn't really understand what you were saying, and it's feels too overwhelming while reading it for me to break it down in my head. My apologies that I cannot offer any comment on it. Would it be rude if I asked you for a simplification of that part?
Regardless. Thank you for the interesting perspective. I would be interested in further discussing these concepts if you want.
Sorry again if I misinterpreted any of what you said, feel free to correct me if I made an error understanding you.
WHOOPS I accidentally posted this as a comment to the original post! Had to delete that lol.
Oh, that's a big text too. Thanks for considering how I feel, and it would be okay if you hadn't replied to everything in it.
I'll just clarify a few things then.
Idiotic is the belief that everything negative is intrinsically bad. That planning for if something goes wrong is expecting it to go wrong. It isn't. Contingency plans are fine, they can be made when you can consider everything, predict failure, and that's helpful, because if you do, you won't be lost, you're still in your plan. Thinking that if an RC plane crashes, you have a replacement part and material and everything you need to make it fly again is completely different from not flying it for fear it might fall, or when it is in the air, all you think about is "what if it falls?"
There is literally no harm in being careful. What is harmful is toxic positivity. That does have an impact and it is imperceptible.
When I say that the unconscious will always win, the hidden assumption was that you're not aware of how this works and aren't educated enough in psychology. That's why I said that the only time things turned out okay for me was after I had learned about it. The unconscious is, in fact, inaccessible to the conscious, for whenever there is unconscious, there can't be conscious. There are these two and then the subconscious that we also do not control, and it bridges the conscious and unconscious.
It always wins because it is imperceptible, it makes you _feel_ some way, not _think_ it. If you _feel_ undeserving of love, you may still hope for it, you may look, try and you will inevitably fail, because acting like someone is cheating on you all the time makes them already live the consequence of acts they didn't commit, and then just doing it feels easy, cuz you're already "paying for it". My own psychologist told me how he used to break up with his girlfriends all the time, how everything was alright and he used to feel a heaviness that only got bigger and went away when he ended things.
It's fine when you work through it, steady and slowly, but the big problem is that inside a relationship, you can't change. We only change when we are alone. When we have someone, we become one, and neither part changes. (That's from a book from that jew guy who wrote the "why do bad things happen to good people" too, I forgot the name and I don't know how relevant he is, but nobody disproved that yet and I see that happen a lot, so... Ah, and I think it's something Yalon? Idk)
The original statement that "everything will be alright" is a fallacy. I hate fallacies, and every fallacy makes me want to vomit. Especially when it is deep toxic positivity territory. It really makes me nauseous, it always has. Forgive me if I say that this has never helped anyone that really needed it and is just a way for people to say something without having to really help you, only expecting you to believe it and do everything yourself. Whoever really loves you, will probably listen long enough to have _something_ to say. Someone that loves you should be able to offer you anything but a lie. And of course, if you're opening up to everyone, be prepared to hear that a lot, but at this point it's not their fault, they probably don't have anything to say. And some people do reject anything you say, so... there is that.
And the rest was... I wouldn't say purposefully confusing, but I'm aware of how confusing it is, it's the process of having a conversation and trying to form a bond with someone. It is one of the deficits I always had, but I let the unconscious guide me there. Kids don't even think about making friends, they do it by instinct, they really just want to have the best time. You don't even need someone's name to have a great time with them. You can think that as a kid in a playground and a teen/adult in a nightclub. Both work.
As for me, I'd rather talk than dance and drink. I'm a simple person, the guy who you'd invite to a coffeeshop and talk about anything, shallow and deep, good and bad, and maybe I'd be able to offer you advice into a problem you didn't even consider that you have, just have been pushing through it lately. It's nice to have someone to talk to and take a step back, I sometimes manage to do just that to people. Again, it's not even that intentional. But I'd rather still be me than have to watch a soccer game, a football game or anything just to talk to people about aspects of it that everyone thinks they know best.
Small talk is a bit of an art. Bad small talk has bad fame between us, but real good small talk feels just like what I described. An introductory conversation.
But in any case, you don't really need to understand the original text about friendship. It would actually help anyone that can take their time and decipher it, at least to go through it from a different perspective, even though it is really messy.
Anyway, that's it. It's normal if you didn't get it the first time, I had just woken up too, tbh. But I guess you don't need to apologize for it, not do you need to acknowledge it all the time. I think twice was enough, if someone is being malicious, no amount of repetition will work, and for someone like me, once would be enough. Twice for safety. Just a tip, I guess.
... Had my fair share of being too worried about other people's feelings to the point that when I stopped, they couldn't understand me themselves and it kinda blew up our "friendships".
I love this community too. First place on the internet where this can be treated seriously and without ridicule from (if not the person I'm talking to) the others. It's much better talking about things thoroughly than just stating something without considering how others can understand it. And even blame them for not getting it.
Whenever I see a parent asking their kid for emotional maturity or knowledge that they don't have yet or to do something they haven't yet taught breaks my heart. And I realize that it breaks their hearts too, and I figure that's why people are like this still... they're hurt too. They have never been given consideration, nobody truly explained things. Also, that's probably why we fall in love with our kindergarten teachers. They are much more likely to take their time to understand us and to help us rise than our own parents.
And that's why I'm now unable to really just assume people are wrong because they want to or that they should see the exact same thing as I do. Sometimes seeing things differently can push you forward because you have other things that synergize much better with it.
(And I can see why someone would rather be positive and deny all negativity in _their_ life when the negativity has already consumed them before, and how they can protect themselves, but I strive to go away from the same view because I might have been a little too complacent with myself and it has brought me more harm than good.)
Hi again, I find your perspective interesting because of both the similarities and differences to my own views. Thank you for the respectful nature of your message and your openness. While I might disagree with you on some fronts, I deeply appreciate the discussion and that you'd take the time to engage with me.
Thank you also for the clarifications. I think I understand what you were saying much better now, and I see I did misinterpret you somewhat.
I would love to talk to you more. Unfortunately, I have a terrible migraine right now. But maybe in the future, when my head feels a bit better, we can continue? I would love to explore this discussion more at a later time.
I sincerely hope you have a good new year!
Thanks again for the time spent talking with me.
So, someone else replied to the comment and I'm not up to rewriting the same thing, I'd say my final thoughts about it for today would be there, if you're interested. If you wanna keep the subject going, you can come back here or you can hit me up in the dms. I think I left my insta account on my profile, and as much as I dislike it, it's still better than Reddit as a messaging app. You can choose between the two. I'll probably be available whenever.
I hope your pain eases soon and you have a great new year too!
Thank you for hearing me out too, it was productive as catharsis and all. See ya.
There is a difference between believing every unknown variable will wind up poorly, and experiencing patterns that indicate similar behavior will almost certainly yield the same result. Big difference. I’m in my thirties. I have lived some life.
Yes. I'm not sure where I said otherwise. Humans are pattern oriented creatures who naturally tend to try to predict things. I just noted that our expectations of an event, whether based on evidence or not, can have a significant effect on the outcome of the event. Hence why people tend to try to offer positive expectations to try to be helpful.
Example: let's say I'm an artist. I'm working on a painting. I've completed many before, but no one has bought a single one. Not a single person has told me they enjoy my work thus far. Let's say these experiences lead to the expectation that nobody ever will and that I will always be a terrible artist.
Whether justified by prior experience or not, these beliefs directly influence action. An artist who absolutely beliefs he cannot succeed, probably never will. Absolutely being a key word. I'll likely put less effort into the work, show it to fewer people, become overly critical of it, or give up altogether. All things which further reinforce the expectation.
Expecting that something might go wrong, that I might never succeed, is different than expecting I will never succeed. The first is realistic, the second is hopeless.
But you are right. I didn't do well enough to clarify that what I was referring to was not general predictions of what might occur. I didn't articulate well enough that I was referring to believing that the negative outcome is a certainty. That was an error on my part.
It's fair to say that believing a positive outcome is certain is toxic. But I see many people who criticize believing in absolute positives immediately follow up by saying they believe instead in absolute negatives. Without acknowledging that believing something absolutely will fail or that they absolutely can not grow or become better, is also toxic by the same metric.
I fucking hate "it gets better." People kept telling that to me before I was diagnosed and acting like I could CBT my sensory problems away. As it turns out, no, they don't get better, actually.
I know what you mean. The phrase 'it gets better' can be seriously misused when you are expected to override something and live the same way as the majority, instead of living differently in a way that works for you. CBT might well not work for sensory problems (out of interest, has it worked for anyone?). I've been put on an unsuitable unpaid placement before and been told I was being negative when I said I might not be able to manage it. It was finding work and hobbies that played to my strengths that made life better, not trying to steamroll over my difficulties.
It objectively does though.
It might not get "ideal", or even close, but it also can. But to my point ... I don't get shoved in lockers anymore. I don't get harassed and bullied. I certainly don't get beat up anymore.
That alone is objectively better. It might not be roses and sunshine, but it is better.
Beyond that, it can get much better. It might not, but it can. And what's even better is that you have a measure of influence as to if it does.
If/When you find "your people" things can get markedly better.
Worlds and places where ND is accepted and even the "norm" do exist and can be quite liberating. Imagine being in a social setting where there is no need to mask... Where your "wired quirks" are not just accepted, but are embraced and even admired.
There's groups like that or there. Finding them does make things better.
And if that's not your bag, as you get older you have more liberty to stay in your space and do your thing. You might not feel the need to go out and do things and you come to understand that that's ok.
The expectation is that being in that group that's "frolicking" around is a desirable thing... But you might start to understand that it might not be as pleasant as it looks from the outside. It can be, but it also can be something entirely different that you don't get to see... Cuz NTs play the game of "keeping up appearances"....
Think of it like the Instagram thing... Where everyone seems to be having a great time but they're only showing you what they want you to think. The NT world is often a real life version of that.
There is a lot of "suck sandwich" out there for sure and NDs are definitely the minority, but the good news is that while luck can help, so can you. You have some control over things and get more control as you get older. You don't have to exercise that control and you might struggle to use it or even know how to, but you certainly have it.
I relate to it, too. It's not like I have been wanting to be with the low-self esteem people. The low-self esteem people accepted me, but I wanted to be with the cool confident people. And I was invited in. I was given a chance. I just could not relax and let myself be myself. And then slowly retreated behind the fence. Now, knowing I am austistic I am renovated in what to expect. I know I can be myself, and manage better the situations. Let's see how it goes.
Here is the way i see it. You work on getting better so when you are alone it is more peacefull, for when you go out for it to be a bit easier. The luck is when the oppurtunity of running around in circle with dogs that feel safe to you you have already work hard on yourself so you can then enjoy that moment.
Rule 1 of buddism states that life is suffering, most buddhist i know are truely content and happy and own nothing. It is possible to be happy and content while suffering.
People say “It gets better!” so much, but the reality is that sometimes things don’t get better. What they should be saying is, “It doesn’t always get better, but you get better at handling it.”
Agreed
I do too
Lately it's been all defeat tho, going through a depressive episode, not as bad as my last one
Just, life's been not too good
But hey, happy new year!
Oh, me too. In fact I had a bad meltdown today. I am sorry you are feeling that way as well. Life has been particularly hard lately. I hope some good things come to you in the new year to balance out the bad of the last.
Likewise
Hope your meltdown wasn't too bad or at least that you managed through it!
Meltdowns suck!
I know coming from someone so down may sound silly or maybe redundant
But there's sunshine of top of the grey clouds
Maybe we just need a little bit of rest before continuing climbing that ladder
Thank you :) It's not silly at all. It is much easier to reassure others than to reassure ourselves.
I am definitely resting today. It's lovely and stormy and rainy outside. Perfect day to stay in bed and listen to an audiobook.
It is much cooler than it has been lately! We have had a heatwave since Christmas, so any temperature in the lower 20's is really wonderful. I adore the cold weather, too. :) So good to snuggle up in, or get out in the garden and not sweat!
I am about to start Gardens of the Moon, the first book in the Malazan Book of the Fallen series. I hear good things, so I really hope I can get into it! I have been listening to the Gentleman Bastards series before this. Do you like fantasy?
Like looking outside from your window
And when you join them they either run away or chase you back
Always have seen myself like a cave troll, just looking at the princes and princesses dancing in the meadow
When I come back they all run away and chase me back to my lonesome cave
Don’t give up on yourself, I had two failed marriages, but fortunate I have two daughters who are successful citizens. I am still learning about autism traits.
I have some ND friends and it's always amazing to me the relief and lack of effort it is to hang out with them. It's easy cuz there's no making. It's doubly easy cuz there's no "mind blindness"... Just the same as NTs can sort of know what the other is thinking, NDs have a similar insight (or at least understanding) among other NDs.
Like when another goes off on a deep dive tangent, we don't get so frustrated... Cuz even if we're not in on the topic, we know the dive... We know what it's like. If we're into the topic is even better cuz you get to go on a deep dive with someone else... Something we rarely get to do... Cuz that sort of thing frustrates the hell out of NTs.
Things like that.
We're just not as used to being around "our kind"
>Just the same as NTs can sort of know what the other is thinking, NDs have a similar insight (or at least understanding) among other NDs.
I might be taking you too literally - maybe you're just talking about your specific friend group? - but I don't like this generalization. There's a huge spectrum of neurodiversity, and not all of us automatically understand each other. Many of us even have conflicting needs (my sensory sensitivities vs. your stims and vice versa).
There's also a large variance among NT personalities; I know NT people who are way more interested in other people's infodumps than I usually am.
I was talking about my mates, but since you've mentioned it, I find it curious.... you follow the thought processes of NT's more easily than ND? Cuz I 100% don't. Even with the variations, I find ND's far easier to follow... no matter where each is on the spectrum.
I find this fits totally with NT's difficulty in following ND's... we're "weird" and "broken" to them... but what they're really pointing at is that we're different. To different degrees and directions of course, but I certainly find far more in common with NDs than I find with NTs. I get along with many NTs well and better than some NDs, but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I understand NDs far more easily than NTs... no matter if I agree with them or not.
And we all have an innate understanding of hyperfocus that NTs don't (for example).
Yes, they can obsess over things. Yes, obsession is a human characteristic and NTs experience it ... cuz if you push the spectrum concept hard enough, you'll talk about everyone being on it and there's no such thing as NT or ND anyway.
But there are characteristics of autism that separates it from NT... by the very definition.
Sorry if that sounds ranty and angry, cuz it's not. Well maybe ranty... ok definitely ranty ;)
I disagree with this statement. Maybe I'm understanding your thoughts on it though. From my point of view The fact that: (researching doctors, calling dozens to find ones available, deal with the fact that they maybe a bad fit and you'll have to have a hard conversation and do it all over again, not to mention the cost and having to get to them) is all extremely overwhelming and makes me want to curl up in a ball, which may indicate one is autistic and is good enough for me. By all means, a good doctor and therapist makes a world of difference, but is not a gateway to reaching out for others that understand what you are feeling.
Personally my two kids are professionally diagnosed, which was important because a lot of services/schools require it, which makes sense to me. But I am selfdiagnosed, my doctor doesn't do official screenings. But we didn't see a huge reason to seek it, in my case. My treatment would be the same and I wasn't seeking anything that required the paper. And finding a doctor I liked was hard enough and took years, I don't want to do it again.
While I understand this could lead to a missed diagnosis for some, if you identify with this community and it helps you. It doesn't subtract from the group and no one is saying "everyone is a little on the spectrum". So I welcome it.
Why is it horrible advice?
I see it like this: a person relates to certain struggles and finds a “group” that fits these struggles too. They feel welcome and understood and seek out advice and ways to deal with the struggles they have. Then the advice they get ends up helping them. Before getting a diagnosis it is a better thing to self diagnose with the goal of seeking support and ways to feel better, than to wallow in your struggles and be worse off. It is definitely good to get a diagnosis at some point to be sure of yourself and cement the suspicion / get more specific or professional support. Or even discover that it is a different diagnosis from what you initially thought.
But i also do feel like self diagnosis can be taken the wrong way when people do not actually know anything about the condition but still assign it to themselves because they relate on a very superficial level. Maybe that is what you are thinking about. Because this might end up hurting people with that diagnosis when the people who think they have it speak about it and end up telling false information
I don't know what this means, and I don't know why I was getting downvotes... 😿 I just said good cookie cuz cookie is their name, and people say "smart cookie" and why can't u say "good cookie"??? I'm so confused...
Remember the people who just say: "Have you tried just stepping over the fence?"
Same people that tell a depressed person to "just stop being sad".
And they tell us we don't have empathy 😅
It's a tough life and this image hits home.
This is exactly how Im feeling tonight. i am so jealous of people who can just be around others and have fun, have someone to talk to. I feel so alone and forgotten about. People dont even notice and that makes me even lonelier.
I remember in grade school, sitting outside the playground, wishing someone would notice. I know if they did and came over, I wouldn't know how to respond and I'd just have shrugged them off, but just the notice and understanding can make a lot of difference. You have a place here and I know it's not the same as sitting at a coffee shop together, but you still belong.
half the time it feels like if I’m not there no one cares or remembers me- I remember once I was at this skating rink with some friends and it got really loud and I was so extremely overwhelmed that I went and hid behind this 4 foot wall that led onto the skating floor, I was sitting there for maybe 30 minutes until my friend was about to skate and saw me saying “oh… hey” and left- they all had forgotten I was even there and tbh that just feels shitty.
Here's what I did to have a friend group, I looked for the other people that hung out alone or away from the loud noisy groups and I engaged with them and talked asked about their interests or talk about some of mine looking for some shared ground (I found general categories like shows, anime, books, games, etc work best for starting out and then you work your way to more specific things within those categories), there's like a 50% that they'll stick around and engage with you \[the 50% that get weirded out or walk away still sting\].
From there, you try to get to know each other *slowly* revealing more things about yourselves. I try to limit it to one or two things that you do that you don't generally show to others per encounter because otherwise you might overwhelm the other person. Very important to try and avoid. Taboo subjects for someone that you don't already know well and aren't trying to be intimate with are things that go on under your clothes.
Even if there aren't any catastrophic failures, most of those people will eventually move on with their own lives, but in this way I have made 5 friends who been close for 10+ years. These are people I can just be weird with and they accept me for who I am.
So it's possible, but you have to seek out other loners, expose yourself (which in itself is pretty uncomfortable), and brace for *a lot* of failure. To give you an idea, I had to approach probably over a hundred people this way.
Before that, I was the dog outside the fence up until I was 16, and weirdly even after I found friends, sometimes I would wonder if they are actually my friends or if they were just pitying me, but communication and taking risks are important to finding friends as an ND.
I think that is the key to put yourself out there. My kid did not click with most peers until middle school. He found a group of friends, all of whom are quirky in some way and now has a BFF who is also autistic. My son thinks I’m autistic too (undiagnosed) as we share many similarities - I too feel like I struggle socially but have managed to find a small handful of friends over many years.
I’m so very sorry. I’m on this group as a NT with autistic people in my life.
My niece (14) has a dream to be invited to a sleepover. Apparently she’s had this dream for years now. And it’s never happened. She doesn’t have friends. It hurts my heart, but I can’t imagine experiencing it.
Always felt like this watching people flirting. I want to experience the joy they seem to be having, but its like an alien language to me. I don't feel or relate to the process naturally at all, but I'm aware of something missing in myself.
That is why I am currently watching the anime [The Dreaming Boy is a Realist](https://myanimelist.net/anime/53632/Yumemiru_Danshi_wa_Genjitsushugisha). You could classify it as a romantic comedy, I classify it as slice of life because nothing really happens in the plot.
But it doesn't have to. It's just high school, with a bit of added quickly-solved drama, nothing more.
And it's a life I never had.
At least I can live out that life today in a second-hand way, as a viewer; watching it and me imagine being there in the scenes of the anime. Living life. Fulfilling a life that never was.
I've thought of it as being like hearing a party going on in your next door neighbours backyard. You can hear people talking, laughing, there's a bit of music, clink of glasses, the smell of food cooking on a grill.
But while you are friendly with your neighbours, they never invite you over.
This is how I felt for years and years until I figured out how to socialize and also manage my rejection sensitivity. Now I have a crew, and people who love spending time with me, but I was lonely for SO many years. Didn't figure this out until my 30s.
There is a cluster tendency of neuro-divergent adults, meaning that we tend to recognise each other and get along a lot better than with neuro-typicals. My tip would be to look for connection with other neuro-divergent and/or queer people. It's so much easier.
Edit: typo
Being the kid who couldn't make friends so teachers would bring you to different friend groups and tell them they HAD to let you play with them which now makes them all hate you because they're being forced to do something they don't want to
I feel for my daughter. She's 5, and every time she's with other kids, it's as if they know that she's wired differently. It's kinda sad, but I take comfort seeing her enjoying her surroundings even by herself only.
I feel EXACTLY like this! And you always feel afraid that you’re intruding or ruining the fun for others when they see you. This is what goes through my head, and that’s why I feel like a loner. It almost feels forced, but truly, it’s not…
I read from another comment that you were diagnosed 10 years ago?
I wonder how it feels to go through a large amount of life, just, not knowing that? Did you always have a feeling you had autism and ADHD? I’m really intrigued on your whole experience, if you don’t mind responding. Please and thank you :)
Thank you for the kind words. It’s been a strange trip, like ‘The Dead’ sing about, yeah also a huge music fan. I was seriously bullied through High School because of being different and somewhat of a nerd. I wished I had more friends, I have had a ton of acquaintances I have made after working with computers for 44 yrs. Had a lot of serious laughs. I guess my quirks didn’t register until my sister said I didn’t make eye contact much and my mom didn’t know with what to do with me. But my wonderful wife knew exactly what made me ‘tick’, told me to get my ass in gear and go to a neuro doctor. What about this one, your working in a high tech field and sometimes your 5-10 steps ahead of other people in thought or logic or business and everyone ‘doesn’t get it’….
The one thing that made a huge difference is having a good therapist who really understands the interaction of ADHD, High Functioning Autism and PTSD. Let me know if you have any more questions.
My wife told me a few months ago that she thinks I am autistic - apparently I'm a lot like one of her sister's colleagues who is diagnosed. It kind of makes sense the more I read about it... If you don’t mind me asking, how was your experience of actually getting diagnosed? I'm 48 and don't know whether or not there would be much benefit to seeking a diagnosis..?
The diagnosis is always good, then you have to think about what you are going to do with the diagnosis. My diagnosis steered me to therapy which helped me a great deal with the interpersonal skill issues I had in through out my life.
Man I understand the label thing, I feel you have to decide if the diagnosis is a quality of life thing, I.e.; will the diagnosis make you feel better or contribute to make your life better
That's me on life.
I even couldn't get a place in group works.
I had to be put into groups by my teachers because I had no initiative of my own to do things with others.
Shit, I saw this piece months ago and actually cried. I couldn't find it anymore. It's painful knowing that so many of us relate, but at the very least, we can understand one another ❤️
See, even that *picture* looks really loud and busy.
Even if I *were* a part of it (and I have been on occasion), it would just be sensory agony.
So many conversations to follow, eyes to meet, mannerisms to mimic... ***no thank you***.
I have exactly one friend and we communicate through text messages and meet once a week. That is *plenty*.
As a mum of a kid who has autism, this makes me feel so sad for him. He's only 10 and doesn't seem too phased yet. Hoping he wil find his one or two friends he enjoys spending time with
Firstly I should mention that I am level 1 so I am privileged relative to a lot of people in this sub but I want to share my thoughts on this picture. I used to relate very incredibly strongly to this picture. But not anymore.
For more than a decade I had always wanted to be "popular", "well liked", "the life of the party", "make friends easily" etc. It took someone who was dyspraxic (struggled to learn, including social cues, but not struggle enough socially to be autistic) to finally explain where I was going wrong and she coached me for basically a year straight. I became very extroverted, life of the party, popular, etc. I enjoyed it at first but I slowly started realising a few things:
1. I am very deeply introverted
2. Everyone is putting up a front. Even when they're "vibing", it's fake. However, because they are allistic they don't realise it's fake - because they are wired to be fake. Nobody actually cares about the people they are "vibing" with. To me and everyone else, it is simply a game of scrabble.
I guess I felt like the picture for so long because I never knew what it was like. But now I know and I don't relate anymore. In other words: curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
I found when I finally accepted myself and loved myself people gravitated towards me I still don't have a huge group but I have a few very close friends now and while we don't have a ton in common we have fun and chill and they like me for me
Okay so sticking with this metaphor, even when others manage to destroy the fence so we're all on one side, I still feel this way, no matter how close I get to people I still feel like an outsider.
I got late diagnosed (about 3 months ago actually), and one of the things I remember from my childhood was something very similar to this: I was about 6-7 years old and I would look out the window, the neighborhood kids playing soccer. I wanted to go out and play but in my head I would count them "oh, they're 10, 5 per side, they're full, I better not". So I wouldn't go.
Sometimes I see other dogs looking through the fence, too. And I want to go over and give them a secret asd hand shake, and hangout. Is there a secret hand shake?
There really isn't a "normal" and I honestly hate that word because it creates such an impossible expectation.
We have to manage our lives within our abilities.
My best friend of 15 years also has Autism. I only see her in real life a couple days a year.
My husband has ADHD. We both struggle, but we support each other, even though some days we have to take turns losing our shit or being quiet.
My life is a whole ass dumpster fire much of the time.
It's ok. I roll with it. I understand I have to survive within my ability to cope or else I will burn out.
It's the worst feeling and it almost feels like someone is playing a cruel joke on you. My advice is try to find neurodivergent friends. Even though it's still hard to try and fit in, they'll understand your struggles
Therapist: and what about that life is it that you actually want?
Me: the part where they seem happy and fulfilled. I'm not really sure what's so complicated about that.
I can definitely relate. Deep down I was self aware of this….but also blissfully unaware at the same time… almost as if for “survival sake”. I desperately wanted to believe that I was included and pretended I was even though this wasn’t the reality of it. Kind of like ignorance is bliss. It wasn’t until college that I realized sitting on the sideline as an observer wasn’t “enough” for people and I learned this the hard way…quickly adjusting by masking. I think the reason why I coasted through HS like this is because I went to a small highschool and for the most part people were kind to me even though I didn’t belong to any friend groups and kept to myself. Sure….no one ever went out of their way to include me or talk to me, and I was voted “most shy” and was never thought of as anyone’s friend…it was never mutual, but people respectfully let me be me. I guess I pretended to be ok with it at the time.
Aww, dude. I have a learning disability, which wreaks havoc on my social skills, too. I've been that doggo many times. I'm sorry you're going through this.
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I relate to this. And I really resent when people say “It gets better!” Because I’ve been working very hard to make it better. So if my efforts mean nothing and it will only get better through luck, then idk what to do. I don’t like living like this.
Same Everyone is like: "It'll get better" The problem is: WHEN?
I don’t think it will get better for me and that’s my little secret that I don’t tell anybody.
Yours and mine both Smiling just to show you're ok when you're hopeless and broken inside Feeling so stuck, seeing everyone's success stories just wondering why can't stuff like that happen to you
Just exist in peace
We are what we are. It never bothered me before I knew why. There’s been few years of confusion. But now I’m back to not caring.
I'm level 2 diagnosed and my life is significantly better at 25 than it was at 16 ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ It all depends on your circumstances and how your autism symptoms manifest. In general, people usually have an easier time coping with difficulties arising from autism when they're older, as experience allows them to form coping strategies.
I'm glad things are better with you With me I am 39 now and they have never looked up dude It's mostly because of the mess that my mental health is, I suppose Everyone is different, after all Glad you're doing well I am not and have lost faith on ever being well Again, everyone is different
When you go into autistic burnout you lose all your coping skills. At least, I do.
Right!?!? No one in my life seems to understand
Agreed Like "Oh it will get better" says the person with a job and a nice life If you were in my shoes you'd be just as sad I mean I don't mean any ill will towards anyone, less so anyone who's got it good but Heavens to Betsy, TRY TO PUT YOURSELF IN MY SHOES, MAN!
I relate to that. People don’t realize that autism is a neurological disorder, it can’t be cured. You can have treatments, but you’re never going to be ‘okay’ 100%
I think the main point of people saying that is to try to provide some amount of hope. In the recovery program I went through, I learned that hopelessness is usually the greatest and most difficult obstacle because if you genuinely don't believe your life can ever get better, then the odds it gets better diminish significantly. There's a thing called the Pygmalion effect. It's basically that if we already have an expectation of how something will go, we will subconsciously act in ways that increase the odds of that expectation becoming reality. Example: if you expect to fail at something. You will subconsciously act in ways that will make to more likely to fail. The increase in failure will reinforce your original expectation, and it will loop, worse and worse. While it's true that your life might genuinely not improve. Expecting and believing it will never change or get better decreases the odds that it will. That's why it's important to try to give people hope for the future.
There is difference between conscious beliefs and unconscious beliefs. While thinking something negative can be just a bit negative and you can still act normal, still do your part and all work out, unconscious beliefs can corrode your own efforts and achievements from inside. So people started saying this idiocy that you can't say anything remotely negative because it will make it your fault and no one will even care when it happens again. You can have conflicting conscious and unconscious beliefs for a time, but the unconscious will always win. This is the truth about what you're talking about. And things get better the more you learn and mature. It's not time, it's what you're building. It just so happens that I needed to restart repeatedly and get to know my own shortcomings. To be fair, once I realized them through therapy, the next restart (social restart, changing your surroundings and seeing new people where nobody knows you. My last chance was going to the university. It worked really well, but mostly because of what I'd learned about myself. So while you know what you think, you can't think through your unconscious. Maybe your subconscious could provide some insight, but the truth is that we can only see the signs, the effects and try to think back in our lives when it all started. The best relationships and the best friendships I have ever had, have grown without me trying to go for it. You don't make a friend, you just fake it till you make it. Act like a friend, respect time and boundaries, never force it, just try to hang out when possible, but don't keep trying that hard to find a day and hour, it comes off as clingy. You can ask for availability, but leave it up to them, try to be a bit decisive and ask if they're available at a specific time that you'd like to go out, happens to work wonders. Then you don't ask much more if they say that they can't. If they want, they probably will suggest another time/place. Then if they don't, you can try again some other time, but trying all the time is just bad too. But for example: It can't really be an objective, you just have to make the time you have with other people the best possible. And that is done by not trying to build your relationship with them. It goes with minor and possibly numerous interactions. You don't try to find common ground, no need to try. If you can talk to someone, you can talk about your interest subtly enough, subtly encouraging them to do the same. I actually learn a lot about other things, it's easy to learn when people you talk to have such different areas of interest. Then you go building a conversational foundation, able to talk about anything, mostly asking questions on specific things. "Oh, I've never heard much about this thing you do."-"how long have you been watching/doing/working/studying it?"-"how is it"-"what can you tell me about it.". You can't follow on an explanation with "go on" or make more and more questions forever. If you didn't get enough to make a comment about how you're thinking about it, ask a follow-up question, more details on their explanation. If they sound a bit tired or smth, you try to let them change the subject, ask if there's smth else. It's really hard to keep that up forever. When it's time for you to say something, cause you will have to, try not making it a lecture, start with an overview allowing for follow-up questions, try to facilitate it. Then you don't monologue without allowing for the subject to change. The subject is more of a morphing concept than something that should be fixed. Every beat of it can lead you down another little spiral. If someone starts leading off an aspect of it, follow them for a while, branch out, circle back after that. It's also like a tree and the subject you start with is the base. Sometimes the first or first few subjects won't grow, they wither and die quickly, then your base will be the one that started branching. Don't get too attached to it either, sometimes a branch can be more interesting to keep coming back to because you both finished with the previous one. A three-way conversation is even more intricate. Sometimes you will be juggling two conversations that interact with one another too and sometimes you'll all be talking about the same thing for a time. I usually like it, personally, because you can be a bit more silent and observe more, then ask a question having had more time and examples.
Hello, you clearly put a lot of thought into this comment, so I want to make an effort to try to understand it and reply to it thoroughly. But I am having a hard time grasping what exactly the message is that you're conveying. Please forgive me if my comprehension of your reply is in any way flawed. Firstly, I'm aware of the difference between the conscious and unconscious. But I'm no expert so forgive me if my opinion may have some faults. Unconscious beliefs are very difficult to change, but they can be changed. It's not easy, but also not impossible. The first step to changing subconscious beliefs is to become aware of their impact on you. An example being overcoming deeply ingrained self hatred, something I've worked hard to change about myself. Like you say, unconscious beliefs can be corrosive. They can warp your perception of what is real. To a person who beliefs they deserve to suffer and die, their perceptions will naturally shift to accommodate that. Genuine compassion becomes fake. Misfortune becomes justice. And happiness becomes unjustifiable. You said people have told you an idiocy, that you can't say anything remotely negative. I'm not sure what you mean. I have yet to meet someone who has said something similar to me. I am not advocating that you cannot have negative thoughts and feelings. I'm not advocating that you cannot have negative beliefs. Those are yours to have. All feelings are valid experiences. My point of bringing up the Pygmalion effect is that one should try to be aware of how these beliefs and feelings affect us. If you are suggesting my opinion was idiocy, I find that unnecessarily rude. There are better ways to make a point than just calling something stupid. The original comment was about people saying "things will get better" in regards to difficulties in life. I don't think that being positively optimistic to someone who is unwell is idiocy. I discussed the concept of hopelessness, the most significant hurdle in wellness. Sure, optimism and positivity aren't usually enough to overcome hopelessness alone, but it can be a small help. Hopelessness is the internal belief things cannot possibly improve, that belief can eventually be changed. I have seen it change. Positivity, generally, contributes more to that change than negativity. You say the unconscious will always win. I disagree. If that were true, I would have ended my life a long time ago. I would not have been able to push myself to seek help. I would not have made the conscious effort to significantly change. I would not have been able to go 2 years without self harm. And I would not be telling others that I believe they can too. I really like what you said about how it isn't time that heals and makes things better, but the efforts you have built and things you have learned. I like that concept a lot and might adapt that into my conversations with people. I love what you said about needing to restart to gain a new perspective on yourself. Everybody's road to betterment is different. Sometimes, you just have to pick a new path and start again. You said you cannot think through your unconscious. That may be true. But all aspects of our consciousness, including unconsciousness, can be explored to some extent. Our unconscious beliefs, those that are core to who we are, can and do change throughout our lives. It doesn't change overnight, but we can influence our core beliefs. To be completely honest, I really had a hard time with your text about friendship. I couldn't really understand what you were saying, and it's feels too overwhelming while reading it for me to break it down in my head. My apologies that I cannot offer any comment on it. Would it be rude if I asked you for a simplification of that part? Regardless. Thank you for the interesting perspective. I would be interested in further discussing these concepts if you want. Sorry again if I misinterpreted any of what you said, feel free to correct me if I made an error understanding you. WHOOPS I accidentally posted this as a comment to the original post! Had to delete that lol.
Oh, that's a big text too. Thanks for considering how I feel, and it would be okay if you hadn't replied to everything in it. I'll just clarify a few things then. Idiotic is the belief that everything negative is intrinsically bad. That planning for if something goes wrong is expecting it to go wrong. It isn't. Contingency plans are fine, they can be made when you can consider everything, predict failure, and that's helpful, because if you do, you won't be lost, you're still in your plan. Thinking that if an RC plane crashes, you have a replacement part and material and everything you need to make it fly again is completely different from not flying it for fear it might fall, or when it is in the air, all you think about is "what if it falls?" There is literally no harm in being careful. What is harmful is toxic positivity. That does have an impact and it is imperceptible. When I say that the unconscious will always win, the hidden assumption was that you're not aware of how this works and aren't educated enough in psychology. That's why I said that the only time things turned out okay for me was after I had learned about it. The unconscious is, in fact, inaccessible to the conscious, for whenever there is unconscious, there can't be conscious. There are these two and then the subconscious that we also do not control, and it bridges the conscious and unconscious. It always wins because it is imperceptible, it makes you _feel_ some way, not _think_ it. If you _feel_ undeserving of love, you may still hope for it, you may look, try and you will inevitably fail, because acting like someone is cheating on you all the time makes them already live the consequence of acts they didn't commit, and then just doing it feels easy, cuz you're already "paying for it". My own psychologist told me how he used to break up with his girlfriends all the time, how everything was alright and he used to feel a heaviness that only got bigger and went away when he ended things. It's fine when you work through it, steady and slowly, but the big problem is that inside a relationship, you can't change. We only change when we are alone. When we have someone, we become one, and neither part changes. (That's from a book from that jew guy who wrote the "why do bad things happen to good people" too, I forgot the name and I don't know how relevant he is, but nobody disproved that yet and I see that happen a lot, so... Ah, and I think it's something Yalon? Idk) The original statement that "everything will be alright" is a fallacy. I hate fallacies, and every fallacy makes me want to vomit. Especially when it is deep toxic positivity territory. It really makes me nauseous, it always has. Forgive me if I say that this has never helped anyone that really needed it and is just a way for people to say something without having to really help you, only expecting you to believe it and do everything yourself. Whoever really loves you, will probably listen long enough to have _something_ to say. Someone that loves you should be able to offer you anything but a lie. And of course, if you're opening up to everyone, be prepared to hear that a lot, but at this point it's not their fault, they probably don't have anything to say. And some people do reject anything you say, so... there is that. And the rest was... I wouldn't say purposefully confusing, but I'm aware of how confusing it is, it's the process of having a conversation and trying to form a bond with someone. It is one of the deficits I always had, but I let the unconscious guide me there. Kids don't even think about making friends, they do it by instinct, they really just want to have the best time. You don't even need someone's name to have a great time with them. You can think that as a kid in a playground and a teen/adult in a nightclub. Both work. As for me, I'd rather talk than dance and drink. I'm a simple person, the guy who you'd invite to a coffeeshop and talk about anything, shallow and deep, good and bad, and maybe I'd be able to offer you advice into a problem you didn't even consider that you have, just have been pushing through it lately. It's nice to have someone to talk to and take a step back, I sometimes manage to do just that to people. Again, it's not even that intentional. But I'd rather still be me than have to watch a soccer game, a football game or anything just to talk to people about aspects of it that everyone thinks they know best. Small talk is a bit of an art. Bad small talk has bad fame between us, but real good small talk feels just like what I described. An introductory conversation. But in any case, you don't really need to understand the original text about friendship. It would actually help anyone that can take their time and decipher it, at least to go through it from a different perspective, even though it is really messy. Anyway, that's it. It's normal if you didn't get it the first time, I had just woken up too, tbh. But I guess you don't need to apologize for it, not do you need to acknowledge it all the time. I think twice was enough, if someone is being malicious, no amount of repetition will work, and for someone like me, once would be enough. Twice for safety. Just a tip, I guess. ... Had my fair share of being too worried about other people's feelings to the point that when I stopped, they couldn't understand me themselves and it kinda blew up our "friendships".
I love this community. The language in both of your back and forth was so reassuring and educational for how to talk to others.
I love this community too. First place on the internet where this can be treated seriously and without ridicule from (if not the person I'm talking to) the others. It's much better talking about things thoroughly than just stating something without considering how others can understand it. And even blame them for not getting it. Whenever I see a parent asking their kid for emotional maturity or knowledge that they don't have yet or to do something they haven't yet taught breaks my heart. And I realize that it breaks their hearts too, and I figure that's why people are like this still... they're hurt too. They have never been given consideration, nobody truly explained things. Also, that's probably why we fall in love with our kindergarten teachers. They are much more likely to take their time to understand us and to help us rise than our own parents. And that's why I'm now unable to really just assume people are wrong because they want to or that they should see the exact same thing as I do. Sometimes seeing things differently can push you forward because you have other things that synergize much better with it. (And I can see why someone would rather be positive and deny all negativity in _their_ life when the negativity has already consumed them before, and how they can protect themselves, but I strive to go away from the same view because I might have been a little too complacent with myself and it has brought me more harm than good.)
Hi again, I find your perspective interesting because of both the similarities and differences to my own views. Thank you for the respectful nature of your message and your openness. While I might disagree with you on some fronts, I deeply appreciate the discussion and that you'd take the time to engage with me. Thank you also for the clarifications. I think I understand what you were saying much better now, and I see I did misinterpret you somewhat. I would love to talk to you more. Unfortunately, I have a terrible migraine right now. But maybe in the future, when my head feels a bit better, we can continue? I would love to explore this discussion more at a later time. I sincerely hope you have a good new year! Thanks again for the time spent talking with me.
So, someone else replied to the comment and I'm not up to rewriting the same thing, I'd say my final thoughts about it for today would be there, if you're interested. If you wanna keep the subject going, you can come back here or you can hit me up in the dms. I think I left my insta account on my profile, and as much as I dislike it, it's still better than Reddit as a messaging app. You can choose between the two. I'll probably be available whenever. I hope your pain eases soon and you have a great new year too! Thank you for hearing me out too, it was productive as catharsis and all. See ya.
But you don’t have autism and yet here you are commenting with a DIY diagnosis. Very offensive.
Don't worry, I found it out, but professionals confirmed. You're a dick, though.
There is a difference between believing every unknown variable will wind up poorly, and experiencing patterns that indicate similar behavior will almost certainly yield the same result. Big difference. I’m in my thirties. I have lived some life.
Yes. I'm not sure where I said otherwise. Humans are pattern oriented creatures who naturally tend to try to predict things. I just noted that our expectations of an event, whether based on evidence or not, can have a significant effect on the outcome of the event. Hence why people tend to try to offer positive expectations to try to be helpful. Example: let's say I'm an artist. I'm working on a painting. I've completed many before, but no one has bought a single one. Not a single person has told me they enjoy my work thus far. Let's say these experiences lead to the expectation that nobody ever will and that I will always be a terrible artist. Whether justified by prior experience or not, these beliefs directly influence action. An artist who absolutely beliefs he cannot succeed, probably never will. Absolutely being a key word. I'll likely put less effort into the work, show it to fewer people, become overly critical of it, or give up altogether. All things which further reinforce the expectation. Expecting that something might go wrong, that I might never succeed, is different than expecting I will never succeed. The first is realistic, the second is hopeless. But you are right. I didn't do well enough to clarify that what I was referring to was not general predictions of what might occur. I didn't articulate well enough that I was referring to believing that the negative outcome is a certainty. That was an error on my part. It's fair to say that believing a positive outcome is certain is toxic. But I see many people who criticize believing in absolute positives immediately follow up by saying they believe instead in absolute negatives. Without acknowledging that believing something absolutely will fail or that they absolutely can not grow or become better, is also toxic by the same metric.
I fucking hate "it gets better." People kept telling that to me before I was diagnosed and acting like I could CBT my sensory problems away. As it turns out, no, they don't get better, actually.
I know what you mean. The phrase 'it gets better' can be seriously misused when you are expected to override something and live the same way as the majority, instead of living differently in a way that works for you. CBT might well not work for sensory problems (out of interest, has it worked for anyone?). I've been put on an unsuitable unpaid placement before and been told I was being negative when I said I might not be able to manage it. It was finding work and hobbies that played to my strengths that made life better, not trying to steamroll over my difficulties.
the good news is that you're not alone. We're a community here.
It objectively does though. It might not get "ideal", or even close, but it also can. But to my point ... I don't get shoved in lockers anymore. I don't get harassed and bullied. I certainly don't get beat up anymore. That alone is objectively better. It might not be roses and sunshine, but it is better. Beyond that, it can get much better. It might not, but it can. And what's even better is that you have a measure of influence as to if it does. If/When you find "your people" things can get markedly better. Worlds and places where ND is accepted and even the "norm" do exist and can be quite liberating. Imagine being in a social setting where there is no need to mask... Where your "wired quirks" are not just accepted, but are embraced and even admired. There's groups like that or there. Finding them does make things better. And if that's not your bag, as you get older you have more liberty to stay in your space and do your thing. You might not feel the need to go out and do things and you come to understand that that's ok. The expectation is that being in that group that's "frolicking" around is a desirable thing... But you might start to understand that it might not be as pleasant as it looks from the outside. It can be, but it also can be something entirely different that you don't get to see... Cuz NTs play the game of "keeping up appearances".... Think of it like the Instagram thing... Where everyone seems to be having a great time but they're only showing you what they want you to think. The NT world is often a real life version of that. There is a lot of "suck sandwich" out there for sure and NDs are definitely the minority, but the good news is that while luck can help, so can you. You have some control over things and get more control as you get older. You don't have to exercise that control and you might struggle to use it or even know how to, but you certainly have it.
I relate to it, too. It's not like I have been wanting to be with the low-self esteem people. The low-self esteem people accepted me, but I wanted to be with the cool confident people. And I was invited in. I was given a chance. I just could not relax and let myself be myself. And then slowly retreated behind the fence. Now, knowing I am austistic I am renovated in what to expect. I know I can be myself, and manage better the situations. Let's see how it goes.
Here is the way i see it. You work on getting better so when you are alone it is more peacefull, for when you go out for it to be a bit easier. The luck is when the oppurtunity of running around in circle with dogs that feel safe to you you have already work hard on yourself so you can then enjoy that moment. Rule 1 of buddism states that life is suffering, most buddhist i know are truely content and happy and own nothing. It is possible to be happy and content while suffering.
People say “It gets better!” so much, but the reality is that sometimes things don’t get better. What they should be saying is, “It doesn’t always get better, but you get better at handling it.”
Always on the outside looking in. I feel you, OP.
What is ADHD-C?
Combined Presentation. So both inattentive and hyperactive.
Thank you!
Of course!
Yeah, that's mine.
This hits home Like the song from the velvet underground: "All the people are dancing, and they're having such fun I wish it could happen to me"
"Oh, someday, I know Someone'll look into my eyes And say hello You're my very special one" Well, maybe not know, but hope.
I hoped for a long time Not really being dismissive or mean but I have given up on that I've waited for so long that I doubt it will happen
I understand. I fluctuate between hope and defeat. I do prefer the days I hope, though.
Agreed I do too Lately it's been all defeat tho, going through a depressive episode, not as bad as my last one Just, life's been not too good But hey, happy new year!
Oh, me too. In fact I had a bad meltdown today. I am sorry you are feeling that way as well. Life has been particularly hard lately. I hope some good things come to you in the new year to balance out the bad of the last.
Likewise Hope your meltdown wasn't too bad or at least that you managed through it! Meltdowns suck! I know coming from someone so down may sound silly or maybe redundant But there's sunshine of top of the grey clouds Maybe we just need a little bit of rest before continuing climbing that ladder
Thank you :) It's not silly at all. It is much easier to reassure others than to reassure ourselves. I am definitely resting today. It's lovely and stormy and rainy outside. Perfect day to stay in bed and listen to an audiobook.
How nice! Is it cold too? I like cold weather a lot! What we you listening to? If you don't mind me asking
It is much cooler than it has been lately! We have had a heatwave since Christmas, so any temperature in the lower 20's is really wonderful. I adore the cold weather, too. :) So good to snuggle up in, or get out in the garden and not sweat! I am about to start Gardens of the Moon, the first book in the Malazan Book of the Fallen series. I hear good things, so I really hope I can get into it! I have been listening to the Gentleman Bastards series before this. Do you like fantasy?
We are addicts to a drug that doesn’t exist.
Yep, Like Smashing Pumpkins, ‘Inspirit of my rage I just a rat in a cage’, I feel you too.
Like looking outside from your window And when you join them they either run away or chase you back Always have seen myself like a cave troll, just looking at the princes and princesses dancing in the meadow When I come back they all run away and chase me back to my lonesome cave
I caught the princess she is now my queen
That's wonderful! I am very happy for you
Don’t give up on yourself, I had two failed marriages, but fortunate I have two daughters who are successful citizens. I am still learning about autism traits.
Thank you for the kind words! I am too learning about ND traits
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Mine almost never cracks but I'll feel like I'm dying inside until I can be alone again.
I have some ND friends and it's always amazing to me the relief and lack of effort it is to hang out with them. It's easy cuz there's no making. It's doubly easy cuz there's no "mind blindness"... Just the same as NTs can sort of know what the other is thinking, NDs have a similar insight (or at least understanding) among other NDs. Like when another goes off on a deep dive tangent, we don't get so frustrated... Cuz even if we're not in on the topic, we know the dive... We know what it's like. If we're into the topic is even better cuz you get to go on a deep dive with someone else... Something we rarely get to do... Cuz that sort of thing frustrates the hell out of NTs. Things like that. We're just not as used to being around "our kind"
>Just the same as NTs can sort of know what the other is thinking, NDs have a similar insight (or at least understanding) among other NDs. I might be taking you too literally - maybe you're just talking about your specific friend group? - but I don't like this generalization. There's a huge spectrum of neurodiversity, and not all of us automatically understand each other. Many of us even have conflicting needs (my sensory sensitivities vs. your stims and vice versa). There's also a large variance among NT personalities; I know NT people who are way more interested in other people's infodumps than I usually am.
Yup, taking about my mates.
I was talking about my mates, but since you've mentioned it, I find it curious.... you follow the thought processes of NT's more easily than ND? Cuz I 100% don't. Even with the variations, I find ND's far easier to follow... no matter where each is on the spectrum. I find this fits totally with NT's difficulty in following ND's... we're "weird" and "broken" to them... but what they're really pointing at is that we're different. To different degrees and directions of course, but I certainly find far more in common with NDs than I find with NTs. I get along with many NTs well and better than some NDs, but that has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I understand NDs far more easily than NTs... no matter if I agree with them or not. And we all have an innate understanding of hyperfocus that NTs don't (for example). Yes, they can obsess over things. Yes, obsession is a human characteristic and NTs experience it ... cuz if you push the spectrum concept hard enough, you'll talk about everyone being on it and there's no such thing as NT or ND anyway. But there are characteristics of autism that separates it from NT... by the very definition. Sorry if that sounds ranty and angry, cuz it's not. Well maybe ranty... ok definitely ranty ;)
Self-diagnosed is diagnosed. 🙂 Don't let anyone convince you otherwise.
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Fair. I think I mean you don't need to be diagnosed by a professional to consider yourself Autistic, ADHD or AuADHD.
That's some horrible, horrible advice.
I disagree with this statement. Maybe I'm understanding your thoughts on it though. From my point of view The fact that: (researching doctors, calling dozens to find ones available, deal with the fact that they maybe a bad fit and you'll have to have a hard conversation and do it all over again, not to mention the cost and having to get to them) is all extremely overwhelming and makes me want to curl up in a ball, which may indicate one is autistic and is good enough for me. By all means, a good doctor and therapist makes a world of difference, but is not a gateway to reaching out for others that understand what you are feeling. Personally my two kids are professionally diagnosed, which was important because a lot of services/schools require it, which makes sense to me. But I am selfdiagnosed, my doctor doesn't do official screenings. But we didn't see a huge reason to seek it, in my case. My treatment would be the same and I wasn't seeking anything that required the paper. And finding a doctor I liked was hard enough and took years, I don't want to do it again. While I understand this could lead to a missed diagnosis for some, if you identify with this community and it helps you. It doesn't subtract from the group and no one is saying "everyone is a little on the spectrum". So I welcome it.
Why is it horrible advice? I see it like this: a person relates to certain struggles and finds a “group” that fits these struggles too. They feel welcome and understood and seek out advice and ways to deal with the struggles they have. Then the advice they get ends up helping them. Before getting a diagnosis it is a better thing to self diagnose with the goal of seeking support and ways to feel better, than to wallow in your struggles and be worse off. It is definitely good to get a diagnosis at some point to be sure of yourself and cement the suspicion / get more specific or professional support. Or even discover that it is a different diagnosis from what you initially thought. But i also do feel like self diagnosis can be taken the wrong way when people do not actually know anything about the condition but still assign it to themselves because they relate on a very superficial level. Maybe that is what you are thinking about. Because this might end up hurting people with that diagnosis when the people who think they have it speak about it and end up telling false information
You're a good cookie.🙂 ❤️
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I don't know what this means, and I don't know why I was getting downvotes... 😿 I just said good cookie cuz cookie is their name, and people say "smart cookie" and why can't u say "good cookie"??? I'm so confused...
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Oh it is??? Oh. lol
Jesus Christ this is sad... And so so relatable...
Remember the people who just say: "Have you tried just stepping over the fence?" Same people that tell a depressed person to "just stop being sad". And they tell us we don't have empathy 😅 It's a tough life and this image hits home.
This is exactly how Im feeling tonight. i am so jealous of people who can just be around others and have fun, have someone to talk to. I feel so alone and forgotten about. People dont even notice and that makes me even lonelier.
I remember in grade school, sitting outside the playground, wishing someone would notice. I know if they did and came over, I wouldn't know how to respond and I'd just have shrugged them off, but just the notice and understanding can make a lot of difference. You have a place here and I know it's not the same as sitting at a coffee shop together, but you still belong.
reading this unlocked a core memory when I was in kindergarten. Somehow no one noticed :0
half the time it feels like if I’m not there no one cares or remembers me- I remember once I was at this skating rink with some friends and it got really loud and I was so extremely overwhelmed that I went and hid behind this 4 foot wall that led onto the skating floor, I was sitting there for maybe 30 minutes until my friend was about to skate and saw me saying “oh… hey” and left- they all had forgotten I was even there and tbh that just feels shitty.
Im so, so sorry. I understand all too well.
My whole life I've felt like this. Thank you for posting this.
Me: *poking my head out the same hole* whatcha looking at? You: *replies* Me: wanna see my cool rocks?
Yes. Yes I do.
Same
Such simple art carrying so much emotion. Ninjas cutting onions or something..
I'm actually bawling wtf
Me, too. Me, too.
Here's what I did to have a friend group, I looked for the other people that hung out alone or away from the loud noisy groups and I engaged with them and talked asked about their interests or talk about some of mine looking for some shared ground (I found general categories like shows, anime, books, games, etc work best for starting out and then you work your way to more specific things within those categories), there's like a 50% that they'll stick around and engage with you \[the 50% that get weirded out or walk away still sting\]. From there, you try to get to know each other *slowly* revealing more things about yourselves. I try to limit it to one or two things that you do that you don't generally show to others per encounter because otherwise you might overwhelm the other person. Very important to try and avoid. Taboo subjects for someone that you don't already know well and aren't trying to be intimate with are things that go on under your clothes. Even if there aren't any catastrophic failures, most of those people will eventually move on with their own lives, but in this way I have made 5 friends who been close for 10+ years. These are people I can just be weird with and they accept me for who I am. So it's possible, but you have to seek out other loners, expose yourself (which in itself is pretty uncomfortable), and brace for *a lot* of failure. To give you an idea, I had to approach probably over a hundred people this way. Before that, I was the dog outside the fence up until I was 16, and weirdly even after I found friends, sometimes I would wonder if they are actually my friends or if they were just pitying me, but communication and taking risks are important to finding friends as an ND.
I think that is the key to put yourself out there. My kid did not click with most peers until middle school. He found a group of friends, all of whom are quirky in some way and now has a BFF who is also autistic. My son thinks I’m autistic too (undiagnosed) as we share many similarities - I too feel like I struggle socially but have managed to find a small handful of friends over many years.
>to put yourself out there Out where?! I'm in my mid 30s lol
I know, it’s definitely trickier as an adult for both ND and NT people. Maybe volunteering in something you like to find people with common interests.
Oh yeah, "I wish I was a person"
I’m so very sorry. I’m on this group as a NT with autistic people in my life. My niece (14) has a dream to be invited to a sleepover. Apparently she’s had this dream for years now. And it’s never happened. She doesn’t have friends. It hurts my heart, but I can’t imagine experiencing it.
Always felt like this watching people flirting. I want to experience the joy they seem to be having, but its like an alien language to me. I don't feel or relate to the process naturally at all, but I'm aware of something missing in myself.
Almost looks like a Trevor Henderson creature
Yes, Holy shit! This so scary accurate
That is why I am currently watching the anime [The Dreaming Boy is a Realist](https://myanimelist.net/anime/53632/Yumemiru_Danshi_wa_Genjitsushugisha). You could classify it as a romantic comedy, I classify it as slice of life because nothing really happens in the plot. But it doesn't have to. It's just high school, with a bit of added quickly-solved drama, nothing more. And it's a life I never had. At least I can live out that life today in a second-hand way, as a viewer; watching it and me imagine being there in the scenes of the anime. Living life. Fulfilling a life that never was.
I've thought of it as being like hearing a party going on in your next door neighbours backyard. You can hear people talking, laughing, there's a bit of music, clink of glasses, the smell of food cooking on a grill. But while you are friendly with your neighbours, they never invite you over.
This is how I felt for years and years until I figured out how to socialize and also manage my rejection sensitivity. Now I have a crew, and people who love spending time with me, but I was lonely for SO many years. Didn't figure this out until my 30s.
There is a cluster tendency of neuro-divergent adults, meaning that we tend to recognise each other and get along a lot better than with neuro-typicals. My tip would be to look for connection with other neuro-divergent and/or queer people. It's so much easier. Edit: typo
Being the kid who couldn't make friends so teachers would bring you to different friend groups and tell them they HAD to let you play with them which now makes them all hate you because they're being forced to do something they don't want to
I have this poster 😭 it spoke to me like ten years ago when I first saw it on Tumblr
I feel for my daughter. She's 5, and every time she's with other kids, it's as if they know that she's wired differently. It's kinda sad, but I take comfort seeing her enjoying her surroundings even by herself only.
Does it mean anything that the artist's name is Anna Shark? 😛
this is more how autism feels to me https://i.imgur.com/TShkkH9.jpg
I feel EXACTLY like this! And you always feel afraid that you’re intruding or ruining the fun for others when they see you. This is what goes through my head, and that’s why I feel like a loner. It almost feels forced, but truly, it’s not…
Stop looking through the fence
Yep , same way mine was back in the 60s …still bad , Bullying …
I read from another comment that you were diagnosed 10 years ago? I wonder how it feels to go through a large amount of life, just, not knowing that? Did you always have a feeling you had autism and ADHD? I’m really intrigued on your whole experience, if you don’t mind responding. Please and thank you :)
Thank you for the kind words. It’s been a strange trip, like ‘The Dead’ sing about, yeah also a huge music fan. I was seriously bullied through High School because of being different and somewhat of a nerd. I wished I had more friends, I have had a ton of acquaintances I have made after working with computers for 44 yrs. Had a lot of serious laughs. I guess my quirks didn’t register until my sister said I didn’t make eye contact much and my mom didn’t know with what to do with me. But my wonderful wife knew exactly what made me ‘tick’, told me to get my ass in gear and go to a neuro doctor. What about this one, your working in a high tech field and sometimes your 5-10 steps ahead of other people in thought or logic or business and everyone ‘doesn’t get it’…. The one thing that made a huge difference is having a good therapist who really understands the interaction of ADHD, High Functioning Autism and PTSD. Let me know if you have any more questions.
My wife told me a few months ago that she thinks I am autistic - apparently I'm a lot like one of her sister's colleagues who is diagnosed. It kind of makes sense the more I read about it... If you don’t mind me asking, how was your experience of actually getting diagnosed? I'm 48 and don't know whether or not there would be much benefit to seeking a diagnosis..?
The diagnosis is always good, then you have to think about what you are going to do with the diagnosis. My diagnosis steered me to therapy which helped me a great deal with the interpersonal skill issues I had in through out my life.
Thanks for replying to me, I appreciate that. Still undecided as I hate the idea of a label, but can also see how it would be useful....
Man I understand the label thing, I feel you have to decide if the diagnosis is a quality of life thing, I.e.; will the diagnosis make you feel better or contribute to make your life better
That's me on life. I even couldn't get a place in group works. I had to be put into groups by my teachers because I had no initiative of my own to do things with others.
That can be real tough , it’s a skill I feel is necessary, unless you always work by yourself
I relate
Absolutely bang on.
Yep. This image. Seen it before, always made me emotional.
Shit, I saw this piece months ago and actually cried. I couldn't find it anymore. It's painful knowing that so many of us relate, but at the very least, we can understand one another ❤️
Wow, this got me right in the heart 💔
See, even that *picture* looks really loud and busy. Even if I *were* a part of it (and I have been on occasion), it would just be sensory agony. So many conversations to follow, eyes to meet, mannerisms to mimic... ***no thank you***. I have exactly one friend and we communicate through text messages and meet once a week. That is *plenty*.
My entire education has been such a dreary experience
I feel this in my soul.
So relatable.
Me too
Oof. Felt
As a mum of a kid who has autism, this makes me feel so sad for him. He's only 10 and doesn't seem too phased yet. Hoping he wil find his one or two friends he enjoys spending time with
This is me but... most the time I also don't want to join the group of dogs. I know being a bit socially indifferent isn't the norm for us though.
Firstly I should mention that I am level 1 so I am privileged relative to a lot of people in this sub but I want to share my thoughts on this picture. I used to relate very incredibly strongly to this picture. But not anymore. For more than a decade I had always wanted to be "popular", "well liked", "the life of the party", "make friends easily" etc. It took someone who was dyspraxic (struggled to learn, including social cues, but not struggle enough socially to be autistic) to finally explain where I was going wrong and she coached me for basically a year straight. I became very extroverted, life of the party, popular, etc. I enjoyed it at first but I slowly started realising a few things: 1. I am very deeply introverted 2. Everyone is putting up a front. Even when they're "vibing", it's fake. However, because they are allistic they don't realise it's fake - because they are wired to be fake. Nobody actually cares about the people they are "vibing" with. To me and everyone else, it is simply a game of scrabble. I guess I felt like the picture for so long because I never knew what it was like. But now I know and I don't relate anymore. In other words: curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
I found when I finally accepted myself and loved myself people gravitated towards me I still don't have a huge group but I have a few very close friends now and while we don't have a ton in common we have fun and chill and they like me for me
Yeah, that was definitely my childhood experience.
Okay so sticking with this metaphor, even when others manage to destroy the fence so we're all on one side, I still feel this way, no matter how close I get to people I still feel like an outsider.
I got late diagnosed (about 3 months ago actually), and one of the things I remember from my childhood was something very similar to this: I was about 6-7 years old and I would look out the window, the neighborhood kids playing soccer. I wanted to go out and play but in my head I would count them "oh, they're 10, 5 per side, they're full, I better not". So I wouldn't go.
Not my case, I feel ok without others since \~15-16 y.o.. My emotional involvement is almost zero.
try having selective mutism 💯💯💯
actually that sounds like a bad idea
Damn this really do be what it be
Yes that’s it. Funny thing about it, it’s that even without fence and even while dancing and laughing with them, you will be still feeling the same.
Then the moment you do get to play with the group you feel uncomfrtable and want to leave. Such is the cycle.
Sometimes I see other dogs looking through the fence, too. And I want to go over and give them a secret asd hand shake, and hangout. Is there a secret hand shake?
those dogs look like greyhounds. greyhounds are definitely on the spectrum.
There really isn't a "normal" and I honestly hate that word because it creates such an impossible expectation. We have to manage our lives within our abilities. My best friend of 15 years also has Autism. I only see her in real life a couple days a year. My husband has ADHD. We both struggle, but we support each other, even though some days we have to take turns losing our shit or being quiet. My life is a whole ass dumpster fire much of the time. It's ok. I roll with it. I understand I have to survive within my ability to cope or else I will burn out.
I’ve never related to something more
Every NYE I'm reminded of this. I'm in my thirties and only celebrated with friends twice. It's the hardest time of the year for me.
Happy new year! The best thing is you made it another year. Three cheers that this year will be good. If not, there is always another :)
It's the worst feeling and it almost feels like someone is playing a cruel joke on you. My advice is try to find neurodivergent friends. Even though it's still hard to try and fit in, they'll understand your struggles
this is so relatable. the art and your caption. :(
Therapist: and what about that life is it that you actually want? Me: the part where they seem happy and fulfilled. I'm not really sure what's so complicated about that.
I relate so much this New Year’s Eve.
I feel this.
From the first day of pre k to now. Always the same.
I can definitely relate. Deep down I was self aware of this….but also blissfully unaware at the same time… almost as if for “survival sake”. I desperately wanted to believe that I was included and pretended I was even though this wasn’t the reality of it. Kind of like ignorance is bliss. It wasn’t until college that I realized sitting on the sideline as an observer wasn’t “enough” for people and I learned this the hard way…quickly adjusting by masking. I think the reason why I coasted through HS like this is because I went to a small highschool and for the most part people were kind to me even though I didn’t belong to any friend groups and kept to myself. Sure….no one ever went out of their way to include me or talk to me, and I was voted “most shy” and was never thought of as anyone’s friend…it was never mutual, but people respectfully let me be me. I guess I pretended to be ok with it at the time.
Aww, dude. I have a learning disability, which wreaks havoc on my social skills, too. I've been that doggo many times. I'm sorry you're going through this.
I feel like the NT idea of 'playing' just doesn't make sense.. like how do you have fun throwing a ball around for hours for your dog?
me too (group hug for everyone in the thread who wants one)
My experience has been that it gets better, then it gets worse. Much worse.
I’ve never felt something more
Fuck you.
Do it softly I cum easily
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i’m sorry that this is irrelevant but how do i upload images on this sub??