Here’s the link, https://www.npr.org/2023/12/03/1216852611/palestinian-student-shot-in-vermont-is-paralyzed-from-chest-down-his-family-says
The FBI is currently investigating if it was a hate crime, there’s nothing pointing to the fact it was or wasn’t (yet)
this happened down the street from me.
context i know is, guy who did it lived on the street the three men were walking on. they were visiting a friend in town for thanksgiving. they were walking and wearing kiffyeahs(sp?) and speaking a mixture of arabic and english. guy exits his house and fires at them.
guy had recently been laid off from his finance job and has a history of saying kinda stupid financial stuff online, but it’s unclear his political affiliation because online postings include support for left and certain center-right positions. family said he’d been happy recently, but pretty sure the gun was purchased recently (gun laws here very lax).
apologies if i got any of that wrong, pulling from memory. when it happened our VT-ALERTS (opt in notification system) received a text saying to stay inside and avoid N. Prospect St (where it happened) as there had been a shooting and suspect was not in custody.
No Hate Crime charges, either. They were speaking Arabic and English and wearing keffiyeh. He stepped off his porch and shot at them with zero prior interaction.
When a terrorist organization comes into your city and kills and rapes your women and children for no reason, tell me what you do? Hamas can end this all by surrendering. Period.
Apparently you do the same thing but 20 times over to people who had nothing to do with hamas.
Hamas could surrender tomorrow but it wouldn't stop israel bombing palestine. They did it for 30 years before hamas existed. Hamas is just the excuse.
I don’t think you can say that Palestinians have nothing to do with Hamas. I don’t necessarily agree with the magnitude of the retaliation, but if you want to wipe out Hamas, which I think the general consensus agrees with that, there will be casualties. I can’t even imagine what we would be saying if someone dropped a nuke like Nagasaki or Hiroshima. That was 110,000 - 200,000 dead in a flash and is still being debated. We will never know. But it ended WW2. Was it right? History says yes. At the time though, I’m sure it was highly criticized but protection for the US was something we ALL agreed on. Nobody agrees on anything anymore.
I would argue the occupying force that has taken your land and occupied and controlled your country, people, and murdered your children for 70 years are bigger terrorists. But I'm assuming you also don't see the CIA as a terrorist organization either.
I can tell you what I wouldn't do. I wouldn't commit genocide. I wouldn't slaughter children. I wouldn't target hospitals. I wouldn't tell a million or so people they have a day to get to the South, and then bomb the South.
Honestly… the shooter doesn’t seem like the “Fox News” demographic. Could definitely be a hate crime and could possibly be a Fox News guy, but he “self described as a 'radical' libertarian on the 'ADHD spectrum'. His social media pages are largely private, but hint at a disillusionment towards America” ([SOURCE](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12795243/amp/Pictured-Suspected-Vermont-gunman-Jason-J-Eaton-48-accused-shooting-three-Palestinian-students.html))
If he’s actually a libertarian (and who the hell knows at this point), this is relevant:
>Gary Johnson, the party's presidential nominee in 2012 and 2016, claims that the Libertarian Party is more culturally liberal than Democrats, and more fiscally conservative than Republicans. ([WIKI SOURCE](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_(United_States)#:~:text=Gary%20Johnson%2C%20the%20party's%20presidential,more%20fiscally%20conservative%20than%20Republicans))
Libertarians generally believe in human rights for everyone and do not believe in offering foreign aid - especially in a war. Also from the wiki source:
>Libertarians generally prefer an attitude of mutual respect between all nations.[citation needed] Libertarians believe that free trade engenders positive international relationships. Libertarian candidates have promised to cut foreign aid and withdraw American troops from the Middle East and other areas throughout the world.[195]
>The Libertarian Party opposed the 2011 military intervention in Libya and LP Chair Mark Hinkle in a statement described the position of the Libertarian Party: "President Obama's decision to order military attacks on Libya is only surprising to those who actually think he deserved the Nobel Peace Prize. He has now ordered bombing strikes in six different countries, adding Libya to Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen."[196][197] It has also called for withdrawal from NATO.[198] In a statement on February 7, 2023, the party came out in support of the Rage Against the War Machine rally in Washington, D.C., and denounced American aid to Ukraine.[199]
All of this is to point out that *maybe* it’s a hate crime… but from how he described himself, he wouldn’t really be a Fox News guy. Also wouldn’t be a CNN guy. More likely a YouTube channel surfing nutjob than a Fox News nutjob.
Perhaps my perception is skewed from my own personal experience, but once someone goes too extreme in one direction on the political spectrum they distrust *all* mainstream media. Liberal, conservative, what have you.
There’s a certain point where extremists reach a level of paranoia that ordinary members of their party wouldn’t, and they tend to be the ones getting news solely from YouTube and other obscure online sources. Conservatives will watch Fox news all day while the Liberals will prefer stomaching CNN or another news source. The extremists of either trust no one, though. They have to “find” the information themselves or they won’t believe it. So they either get all their news from Twitter (if they’re liberal), Telegram (if they’re conservative) and YouTube (either or).
It is the person who pulled the trigger, you're not wrong there, but said pulling of said trigger had a very serious effect on somebody who *didn't* pull the trigger or even had any sort of influence on when or why said trigger would get pulled
Yes, but it is still "very" imperative that universities release statements saying stop calling for "jewish genocide" and completely choosing to ignore the Palestinian students who are literally shot and killed, alongside absolutely nothing in regards to the ACTUAL ongoing genocide of the Palestinians in Gaza by Israel. Just lovely.
Because most of their bombs have been dropped in less populated areas. But that doesn't change the fact that they're indiscriminately killing Palestinians, and the bombs dropped in populated areas have killed hundreds. Hell, they killed Israeli prisoners held by Hamas *who were waving white flags* because they were too trigger-happy to verify their target before shooting.
Why would they target unpopulated areas if they're trying to maximize Palestinian casualties? Gaza's pretty densely populated, so what's stopping Israel from getting multiple deaths per bomb?
Genocides are, by definition, intentional. That's like, the whole point. It's the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, religious, or ethnic group.
Doesn't really matter if you're taking slightly less intentional steps, if the end result is the same as a genocide, it's a genocide.
Plus, that's hinging on the idea that it's not intentional anyways. I'd absolutely argue otherwise. The shit Israel is pulling is 100% intentional.
I would agree it is not genocide, but the civilian death toll is unacceptably high. I expected more from Israel, who untill now at least had a better human rights record than Hamas.
Yes, and they've dropped 29k bombs to get to that 20k death toll, which leads me to the question you haven't really answered.
If Israel is trying to genocide all Palestinians, then why have they chosen to use they're bombs so inefficiently? The bombing of Dresden killed 25k in *two days,* and yet it's taken Israel more than two months and they've only killed 20k? Are they just bad at genocide? What's going on here?
Replying again to add my original point: is it really inefficient bombing if they’re telling people to go to safe zones then dropping those bombs on them?
Israel doesn’t have those resources. It’s a 50/50 shot at this point if the US will stop paying for those bombs that are killing civilians. And if you can point me to sources or paste a link, i have NEVER heard of the IDF dropping 29k bombs, I’d love to see the stats on that from anyone other than Gaza and the IDF.
It’s so wild to me that even in an age of information, people still refuse to believe the words coming out of victims mouths.
>Israel doesn’t have those resources.
Which makes the decision to use their bombs so inefficiently even more bizarre. Maybe you can explain that decision for me?
>And if you can point me to sources or paste a link, i have NEVER heard of the IDF dropping 29k bombs, I’d love to see the stats on that from anyone other than Gaza and the IDF.
I got the number from this [Jacobin article ](https://jacobin.com/2023/12/israel-defense-forces-gaza-palestine-civilian-death-casualties-women-children-journalists-war#:~:text=Since%20then%2C%20Israel%20has%20reportedly,nearly%20500%20bombs%20per%20day.) which seems pretty skewed against Israel.
There's also [this CNN article,](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html) [this Economist article,](https://www.economist.com/interactive/middle-east-and-africa/2023/12/16/why-is-israel-using-so-many-dumb-bombs-in-gaza) [and this Business Insider article](https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-used-thousands-of-unguided-dumb-bombs-strikes-on-gaza-2023-12), all of which make the same claim. If that's not enough, then I'm going to need you to provide a source that gives me better numbers, because all I'm seeing is the 29k figure.
So back to my original question, why is Israel being so inefficient with their ordinance? Isn't one of the benefits of a bomb that it can kill a bunch of people in one go? You'd think it'd would be pretty easy to capitalize on that in a densely populated place like Gaza.
I think you know the answer. They’re not intentionally trying to maximise civilian deaths. The truth is that they’re indifferent to civilian deaths. They just don’t give a shit
That's not true either. Hamas operates out of civilian infrastructure, if Israel didn't care how many civilians they killed, the death toll would be much higher. The fact is that Israel is the only party in this conflicts that is doing anything to minimize civilian casualties. Israel gives advanced warning of their bombings, Israel takes into account collateral deaths when selecting targets, and Israel does not select civilians as targets. Hamas does none of this.
Unfortunately, Israel has miliary goals they want to achieve, and Hamas is willing to use human shields to prevent that. If Hamas wants the civilian death toll be lower, it is completely within their power to make that happen.
Any evidence of that? Like when they bombed the french diplomats house, or shot those ladies at the church there was Hamas firing rockets from there right?
So when asked for evidence you just dont provide any and instead tell me to search? The burden of proof is on you so can you prove it or are you gonna just tell me to go seaech it?
Fucking terrorism. They did horrible, heinous things and deserve to be punished to the highest degree for it. You can sit here and say some Palestinians supported Hamas but that’s no reason to kill 20,000 of mostly civilians, particularly children. To bomb safe zones.
When 9/11 happened should the US have gone and bombed mosques?? If their actual goal is eliminating Hamas there’s other ways to do it. Not at the price of thousands of innocents.
Lovely statistic, did you also account for how many of the bombs target civilian infrastructure? Oh wait, there must be hamas under there? Under the hospitals, under the mosques, under the schools. Even the "hamas members" Israel proudly boasted that they caught and stripped down, had UN members amongst them, but they must be working for hamas too, the journalists documenting every atrocity of Israel's actions must be hamas too.
Please, I want you to look at the accounts of these on-ground journalists:
@motaz_aziaza
@ismail.jood
@wizard.bisan1
These are REAL people and the videos and pictures that they display every single day coming out of Gaza are REAL. How is damage like that be justified? In what way? Israel will release one CGI video of "hamas tunnels" under hospitals it's bombed and the people will be quick to support their narrative. Then they'll enter a "hamas home" and point towards a calendar, calling it a "hamas terrorists" list of names.
Its no contest, that the majority of western media is controlled by Israelis, the amount of Israelis in high ranking positions of the western media show a pretty clear image of whom the media might want to portray as the hero.
There is a hand of theirs in everything. When President Gay of Harvard University did not follow the PR guidelines of condemn hamas and leave. She was very clearly asked to go back on her statements, condemn hamas, and leave.
When genocide is justified, there is no action left less moral, Israel has broken near-hundred UN resolutions and openly blame and ridicule the UN whenever it even tries to bring accountability to Israel. But Israel can never be wrong, right? Only everyone else is.
I know how easily influencing media can be, especially when there's two sides portraying opposite narratives, but with a little insight to the truth, the reality becomes extremely clear. In my own opinion, you'll see that the Israel supporters will only take into quote statements made by the official Israeli Twitter account and such. It's not about who supports genocide and who doesn't, but "people that do" would be misinformed. Misinformed by sources filled with propaganda.
Lovely dodge, but could you actually answer my question? If Israel's goal is to maximize Palestinian casualties, then why are they using their bombs so inefficiently?
I read your other thread and your problem, is with the fact that, Israel has ONLY killed 20,000 civilians, after it dropped 29,000 bombs?
That's what you have an issue with?
Who are you trying to fight here man? And you keep trying to keep trying to prove your point by saying why is Israel not using the most efficient way to kill everyone.
Well, dropping a nuke will do the job no? (as was also suggested by Israeli politicians as a reasonable action btw) but that would cause problems for the Israeli propoganda.
Genocide isn't about the numbers, it's about the intent. If the Israeli intent was to wipe out all Palestinians, then I'd expect to see more than 0.7 Palestinian deaths per bomb dropped. The fact that the number is so low means that either Palestinians don't die from bombs, or that Israel doesn't have the intent to kill as many Palestinians as possible.
I think you’re also forgetting that they’re mostly targeting infrastructure. *Most of them evacuated and empty. No one is taking them in as refugees, at least not by a significant amount. So many people are already dying bc hospitals can’t treat them, they have no shelter, no food, it’s all in rubble. The IDF is leaving them no safe place to go, and do you really, truly believe anything they say? How do you know they’re targeting Hamas at those safe zones and refugee camps? Why would you take anything they say at face value? Why believe them, over the thousands of people in Gaza that are screaming at the world to look and see what is happening?
Also I highly suggest you look at Bisan’s tik toks and videos. The Palestinian people are showing you what is happening, telling you. And it’s honestly blown my mind that there’s so many people in this thread who are still believing in the ones leaving pre mature babies to die.
Or they haven't found all the bodies yet, it is an ongoing warzone. I'm not arguing with you just pointing out a pretty big factor that you do need to account for.
Even if we triple the current death toll, it'd only be 2 deaths per bomb dropped. If Israel is trying to genocide Palestinians, that seems incredibly low, and that's assuming there's 40k dead Palestinians that nobody noticed. Unless you've got a source talking about tens of thousands of uncounted dead Palestinians, I don't think that explains it.
I'm gonna need someone to see how many bombs America dropped to kills in Afghanistan then we can get an idea of kills per bomb and how reasonable to rate should be when fighting an insurgency.
The majority of western media is controlled by Israelis? Do you mean people that live in Israel? Or do you mean Jews? And what is the source of your information?
YES, I DO! IT WAS THEIR LAND! THE FUCK THEY GOTTA ANSWER TO YOU OR ANYONE ELSE FOR???
If you really intend to use the Bible to support Jewish land claims, then it behooves you read the part about how THEY BROKE GOD'S CONVENANT 3 TIMES, and by their own actions had GOD HIMSELF KICK THEM OUT!!! If you wanna go Biblical, the Jews are treacherous, idolatrous, back biting people.
So please, go ahead and try your best to go pre-1948
That particular stretch of land has been held by the Canonnites, Turks, Egyptians, Phoenicians, Israelis, Palestinians, and a whole host of others. What makes you so convinced it was Palestinian land? Because they had it last before Israel? What about whom they took it from? History is full of people's being displaced by stronger civilizations. Shit happens.
If you came here to tell me that conquest is conquest is conquest, then fuck them Israelis. Conquest is conquest is conquest, right? They knew what they were getting into. But EVERYONE is responsible for their own actions. So the Israelis have themselves to blame for every life lost since taking that land, by your own standard.
Are you of the opinion that Israel is undeniably genociding the Palestinians? If so, can you explain why Israel has dropped 29k bombs, but only killed 20k Palestinians since Oct 7th? That's less than 1 kill per bomb.
If Israel is trying to maximize Palestinian casualties, then it stands to reason that Israel would try to have as many kills per bomb as possible. If that's true, then the only reasons the kill count would be lower than the bombs dropped count is either a) Palestinians are somehow defending themselves from the bombs, or b) Israel is not trying to kill as many Palestinians as possible
Can you give me an explanation for why that ratio is so low?
Yes is most definitely is. If Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians, we’d be talking about them in the past tense. It would only take a few hours. But they haven’t. That proves that your hyperbole is laughable.
Palestinians. You know, because the IDF told them to go to safe zones and then BOMBED THE SAFE ZONES AND ADMITTED TO IT.
If the holocaust were to happen again today, y’all still wouldn’t believe the stories of the victims suffering
Except the “victims” use financial aid to buy paragliders, AKs and RPGs to attack innocent people.
I’ve seen the videos from Oct 7th. Every Palestinian death is because of Hamas and the people who support them.
Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself from attacks.
Wikipedia says that "Nazism is a form of fascism, with disdain for liberal democracy and the parliamentary system. It incorporates a dictatorship, fervent antisemitism, anti-communism, anti-Slavism, scientific racism, white supremacy, Nordicism, social Darwinism and the use of eugenics into its creed."
As far as I can tell, non of that applies to Israel.
Dig deeper than Wikipedia.
Both are essentially the same thing, the core tennents are the erasure of an ethnic group and an attempt to expand borders to provide living space or "lebestraum" for its own national people.
Where did you read that? The NPR article only says that the shooting is being investigated as a possible hate crime. Have you read an article that gives more details on the motives behind the shooting?
I agree that there's a good chance this was a hate crime, but that's not the same thing as confirmation, and I like to distinguish between fact and educated speculation.
No they aren’t. No one considers Arabs white. We definitely don’t consider ourselves white. Saddam Hussein would still be alive if he was white lmao. If they were, they’d have a lot more sympathy from the US government like certain white groups (Israelis & Ukrainians!)
And Arabs are not white. One of the few things that whites Jews and Arabs all agree on.
Youvknow how the IDF just slaughtered 3 of their own people who were taken hostage? They shot first, asked questions later. In their own report, they said they decided to identify the bodies because one of the hostages "looked white." Only then did they realize they shot their own people.
So you see, the Israelis actually consider themselves white, and there is zero confusion in anyone else's mind that Arabs are brown people, i.e., not white.
I’m not the government or the WHO, I’m just delivering the facts. White/Caucasian is a term used to describe "a person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa" Now if you are a stupid American, yes everything is about a crayon color and not genetic science.
It sucks there is genocide in the world and I encourage anyone so inclined, to go to the point of conflict and fight to stop it.
No, I'm saying they could have been the "target" of a robbery. Just because they were of a certain ethnicity doesn't meant that' the only possible reason they got shot.
Yet, you provide no links. We are referring to the article where it clearly states the FBI is still investigating the “why”. Appreciate your snark, happy holidays.
I know what you were going for- it’s some accidental comedy that an Arabic person was referred to by their Alma mater, which was coincidentally also their skin color. I think your downvoters missed your sarcasm.
Bad people will get guns whether they are legal or not. It should just be harder to get them legally. There’s one big issue. The 2nd amendment. It’s just we have a mental health crisis in this country and more hate than ever.
40 damn comments and only one of them isn’t downvoted into a collapsed comment. I’ve actually never seen this before.
Israeli bot farms are the new Russian bot farms
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What's the context to this story?
Here’s the link, https://www.npr.org/2023/12/03/1216852611/palestinian-student-shot-in-vermont-is-paralyzed-from-chest-down-his-family-says The FBI is currently investigating if it was a hate crime, there’s nothing pointing to the fact it was or wasn’t (yet)
Thanks for the link. I see people are running with their theories.
No problem, lots of jumping to conclusions best to read it wait for more info to come out.
Yes, don't speculate. Wait for the authorities to tell you what to think.
You’re right. It’s much better to form strong opinions based on nothing at all. So much better.
Not at all what I said, but ok.
Random violence means they have been accepted as true Americans.
this happened down the street from me. context i know is, guy who did it lived on the street the three men were walking on. they were visiting a friend in town for thanksgiving. they were walking and wearing kiffyeahs(sp?) and speaking a mixture of arabic and english. guy exits his house and fires at them. guy had recently been laid off from his finance job and has a history of saying kinda stupid financial stuff online, but it’s unclear his political affiliation because online postings include support for left and certain center-right positions. family said he’d been happy recently, but pretty sure the gun was purchased recently (gun laws here very lax). apologies if i got any of that wrong, pulling from memory. when it happened our VT-ALERTS (opt in notification system) received a text saying to stay inside and avoid N. Prospect St (where it happened) as there had been a shooting and suspect was not in custody.
No Hate Crime charges, either. They were speaking Arabic and English and wearing keffiyeh. He stepped off his porch and shot at them with zero prior interaction.
When they do in the US its a hate crime, but when they do it 20,000 times in a month in gaza its totally fine
That's a hate crime as well.
Well it’s a war, what do you expect?
what war? Its genocide.
If they were bent on genocide, they could accomplish it in a few hours. They haven’t. So you’re wrong.
When a terrorist organization comes into your city and kills and rapes your women and children for no reason, tell me what you do? Hamas can end this all by surrendering. Period.
Apparently you do the same thing but 20 times over to people who had nothing to do with hamas. Hamas could surrender tomorrow but it wouldn't stop israel bombing palestine. They did it for 30 years before hamas existed. Hamas is just the excuse.
I don’t think you can say that Palestinians have nothing to do with Hamas. I don’t necessarily agree with the magnitude of the retaliation, but if you want to wipe out Hamas, which I think the general consensus agrees with that, there will be casualties. I can’t even imagine what we would be saying if someone dropped a nuke like Nagasaki or Hiroshima. That was 110,000 - 200,000 dead in a flash and is still being debated. We will never know. But it ended WW2. Was it right? History says yes. At the time though, I’m sure it was highly criticized but protection for the US was something we ALL agreed on. Nobody agrees on anything anymore.
>History says yes. Who's history?
I would argue the occupying force that has taken your land and occupied and controlled your country, people, and murdered your children for 70 years are bigger terrorists. But I'm assuming you also don't see the CIA as a terrorist organization either.
I can tell you what I wouldn't do. I wouldn't commit genocide. I wouldn't slaughter children. I wouldn't target hospitals. I wouldn't tell a million or so people they have a day to get to the South, and then bomb the South.
If Hamas would wear uniforms and not hide among the civilians, this would have been over a long time ago.
Yes, we know the terrorists are bad. That doesn't justify murdering thousands upon thousands of children.
Thought you were talking about American colonists for a second.
Its not a war. It is just genocide
They need to sue Fox News for making all these old crazy white men act like this
Honestly… the shooter doesn’t seem like the “Fox News” demographic. Could definitely be a hate crime and could possibly be a Fox News guy, but he “self described as a 'radical' libertarian on the 'ADHD spectrum'. His social media pages are largely private, but hint at a disillusionment towards America” ([SOURCE](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12795243/amp/Pictured-Suspected-Vermont-gunman-Jason-J-Eaton-48-accused-shooting-three-Palestinian-students.html)) If he’s actually a libertarian (and who the hell knows at this point), this is relevant: >Gary Johnson, the party's presidential nominee in 2012 and 2016, claims that the Libertarian Party is more culturally liberal than Democrats, and more fiscally conservative than Republicans. ([WIKI SOURCE](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_(United_States)#:~:text=Gary%20Johnson%2C%20the%20party's%20presidential,more%20fiscally%20conservative%20than%20Republicans)) Libertarians generally believe in human rights for everyone and do not believe in offering foreign aid - especially in a war. Also from the wiki source: >Libertarians generally prefer an attitude of mutual respect between all nations.[citation needed] Libertarians believe that free trade engenders positive international relationships. Libertarian candidates have promised to cut foreign aid and withdraw American troops from the Middle East and other areas throughout the world.[195] >The Libertarian Party opposed the 2011 military intervention in Libya and LP Chair Mark Hinkle in a statement described the position of the Libertarian Party: "President Obama's decision to order military attacks on Libya is only surprising to those who actually think he deserved the Nobel Peace Prize. He has now ordered bombing strikes in six different countries, adding Libya to Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, and Yemen."[196][197] It has also called for withdrawal from NATO.[198] In a statement on February 7, 2023, the party came out in support of the Rage Against the War Machine rally in Washington, D.C., and denounced American aid to Ukraine.[199] All of this is to point out that *maybe* it’s a hate crime… but from how he described himself, he wouldn’t really be a Fox News guy. Also wouldn’t be a CNN guy. More likely a YouTube channel surfing nutjob than a Fox News nutjob.
Perhaps my perception is skewed from my own personal experience, but once someone goes too extreme in one direction on the political spectrum they distrust *all* mainstream media. Liberal, conservative, what have you. There’s a certain point where extremists reach a level of paranoia that ordinary members of their party wouldn’t, and they tend to be the ones getting news solely from YouTube and other obscure online sources. Conservatives will watch Fox news all day while the Liberals will prefer stomaching CNN or another news source. The extremists of either trust no one, though. They have to “find” the information themselves or they won’t believe it. So they either get all their news from Twitter (if they’re liberal), Telegram (if they’re conservative) and YouTube (either or).
Libertarians online are just right-wingers pretending to be open minded.
What happened to 'my body my choice'?
My body my choice doesn't apply when your choice kills other people.
Well it does. It's the person's choice. Not some news channel.
That thinking only works if you're shooting your own body, which unless they were slaves doesn't work in this context
What? It's the person who pulled the trigger. Not some rando news channel
It is the person who pulled the trigger, you're not wrong there, but said pulling of said trigger had a very serious effect on somebody who *didn't* pull the trigger or even had any sort of influence on when or why said trigger would get pulled
I don't recall saying it did?
Saying what did? Are you just trolling like an asshole right now?
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Yes, but it is still "very" imperative that universities release statements saying stop calling for "jewish genocide" and completely choosing to ignore the Palestinian students who are literally shot and killed, alongside absolutely nothing in regards to the ACTUAL ongoing genocide of the Palestinians in Gaza by Israel. Just lovely.
If Israelis are genociding Palestinians, then why have Israelis killed less than 1 person per bomb they've dropped?
Because most of their bombs have been dropped in less populated areas. But that doesn't change the fact that they're indiscriminately killing Palestinians, and the bombs dropped in populated areas have killed hundreds. Hell, they killed Israeli prisoners held by Hamas *who were waving white flags* because they were too trigger-happy to verify their target before shooting.
Does Hamas wear uniforms? Do they have a base that the public knows about?
Why would they target unpopulated areas if they're trying to maximize Palestinian casualties? Gaza's pretty densely populated, so what's stopping Israel from getting multiple deaths per bomb?
My understanding is that they are trying to maximize Hamas casualties, and are willing to hit civilians in the process.
Yes, that's my understanding as well, but that is not what a genocide is.
Intentionally or not, it absolutely is.
Genocides are, by definition, intentional. That's like, the whole point. It's the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, religious, or ethnic group.
Doesn't really matter if you're taking slightly less intentional steps, if the end result is the same as a genocide, it's a genocide. Plus, that's hinging on the idea that it's not intentional anyways. I'd absolutely argue otherwise. The shit Israel is pulling is 100% intentional.
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I would agree it is not genocide, but the civilian death toll is unacceptably high. I expected more from Israel, who untill now at least had a better human rights record than Hamas.
And idk if you just saw but the death toll just hit 20k, and that not just from inside Gaza, journalists are reporting the same.
Yes, and they've dropped 29k bombs to get to that 20k death toll, which leads me to the question you haven't really answered. If Israel is trying to genocide all Palestinians, then why have they chosen to use they're bombs so inefficiently? The bombing of Dresden killed 25k in *two days,* and yet it's taken Israel more than two months and they've only killed 20k? Are they just bad at genocide? What's going on here?
Replying again to add my original point: is it really inefficient bombing if they’re telling people to go to safe zones then dropping those bombs on them?
I'm not responding to these secondary comments, it makes the thread messy, and I hate it.
Israel doesn’t have those resources. It’s a 50/50 shot at this point if the US will stop paying for those bombs that are killing civilians. And if you can point me to sources or paste a link, i have NEVER heard of the IDF dropping 29k bombs, I’d love to see the stats on that from anyone other than Gaza and the IDF. It’s so wild to me that even in an age of information, people still refuse to believe the words coming out of victims mouths.
>Israel doesn’t have those resources. Which makes the decision to use their bombs so inefficiently even more bizarre. Maybe you can explain that decision for me? >And if you can point me to sources or paste a link, i have NEVER heard of the IDF dropping 29k bombs, I’d love to see the stats on that from anyone other than Gaza and the IDF. I got the number from this [Jacobin article ](https://jacobin.com/2023/12/israel-defense-forces-gaza-palestine-civilian-death-casualties-women-children-journalists-war#:~:text=Since%20then%2C%20Israel%20has%20reportedly,nearly%20500%20bombs%20per%20day.) which seems pretty skewed against Israel.
A biased source isn’t really the place to draw your argument on. They don’t have 29k bombs.
There's also [this CNN article,](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza/index.html) [this Economist article,](https://www.economist.com/interactive/middle-east-and-africa/2023/12/16/why-is-israel-using-so-many-dumb-bombs-in-gaza) [and this Business Insider article](https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-used-thousands-of-unguided-dumb-bombs-strikes-on-gaza-2023-12), all of which make the same claim. If that's not enough, then I'm going to need you to provide a source that gives me better numbers, because all I'm seeing is the 29k figure. So back to my original question, why is Israel being so inefficient with their ordinance? Isn't one of the benefits of a bomb that it can kill a bunch of people in one go? You'd think it'd would be pretty easy to capitalize on that in a densely populated place like Gaza.
I think you know the answer. They’re not intentionally trying to maximise civilian deaths. The truth is that they’re indifferent to civilian deaths. They just don’t give a shit
That's not true either. Hamas operates out of civilian infrastructure, if Israel didn't care how many civilians they killed, the death toll would be much higher. The fact is that Israel is the only party in this conflicts that is doing anything to minimize civilian casualties. Israel gives advanced warning of their bombings, Israel takes into account collateral deaths when selecting targets, and Israel does not select civilians as targets. Hamas does none of this. Unfortunately, Israel has miliary goals they want to achieve, and Hamas is willing to use human shields to prevent that. If Hamas wants the civilian death toll be lower, it is completely within their power to make that happen.
Israel told Gaza civilians to go to safe zones. Then BOMBED those safe zones. That is FACT. IDF has ADMITTED it. How do you NOT call that a genocide?
Bc Hamas launched rockets from those safe zones.
Any evidence of that? Like when they bombed the french diplomats house, or shot those ladies at the church there was Hamas firing rockets from there right?
Yes. It’s news. Go search.
So when asked for evidence you just dont provide any and instead tell me to search? The burden of proof is on you so can you prove it or are you gonna just tell me to go seaech it?
Israel had a music festival and Hamas paraglided into it and started randomly killing and capturing Israelis. What do you call that?
Fucking terrorism. They did horrible, heinous things and deserve to be punished to the highest degree for it. You can sit here and say some Palestinians supported Hamas but that’s no reason to kill 20,000 of mostly civilians, particularly children. To bomb safe zones. When 9/11 happened should the US have gone and bombed mosques?? If their actual goal is eliminating Hamas there’s other ways to do it. Not at the price of thousands of innocents.
Lovely statistic, did you also account for how many of the bombs target civilian infrastructure? Oh wait, there must be hamas under there? Under the hospitals, under the mosques, under the schools. Even the "hamas members" Israel proudly boasted that they caught and stripped down, had UN members amongst them, but they must be working for hamas too, the journalists documenting every atrocity of Israel's actions must be hamas too. Please, I want you to look at the accounts of these on-ground journalists: @motaz_aziaza @ismail.jood @wizard.bisan1 These are REAL people and the videos and pictures that they display every single day coming out of Gaza are REAL. How is damage like that be justified? In what way? Israel will release one CGI video of "hamas tunnels" under hospitals it's bombed and the people will be quick to support their narrative. Then they'll enter a "hamas home" and point towards a calendar, calling it a "hamas terrorists" list of names. Its no contest, that the majority of western media is controlled by Israelis, the amount of Israelis in high ranking positions of the western media show a pretty clear image of whom the media might want to portray as the hero. There is a hand of theirs in everything. When President Gay of Harvard University did not follow the PR guidelines of condemn hamas and leave. She was very clearly asked to go back on her statements, condemn hamas, and leave. When genocide is justified, there is no action left less moral, Israel has broken near-hundred UN resolutions and openly blame and ridicule the UN whenever it even tries to bring accountability to Israel. But Israel can never be wrong, right? Only everyone else is. I know how easily influencing media can be, especially when there's two sides portraying opposite narratives, but with a little insight to the truth, the reality becomes extremely clear. In my own opinion, you'll see that the Israel supporters will only take into quote statements made by the official Israeli Twitter account and such. It's not about who supports genocide and who doesn't, but "people that do" would be misinformed. Misinformed by sources filled with propaganda.
Lovely dodge, but could you actually answer my question? If Israel's goal is to maximize Palestinian casualties, then why are they using their bombs so inefficiently?
I read your other thread and your problem, is with the fact that, Israel has ONLY killed 20,000 civilians, after it dropped 29,000 bombs? That's what you have an issue with? Who are you trying to fight here man? And you keep trying to keep trying to prove your point by saying why is Israel not using the most efficient way to kill everyone. Well, dropping a nuke will do the job no? (as was also suggested by Israeli politicians as a reasonable action btw) but that would cause problems for the Israeli propoganda.
I guess he has more standards for a genocide. Maybe it’ll take a couple more thousand for them.
Genocide isn't about the numbers, it's about the intent. If the Israeli intent was to wipe out all Palestinians, then I'd expect to see more than 0.7 Palestinian deaths per bomb dropped. The fact that the number is so low means that either Palestinians don't die from bombs, or that Israel doesn't have the intent to kill as many Palestinians as possible.
I think you’re also forgetting that they’re mostly targeting infrastructure. *Most of them evacuated and empty. No one is taking them in as refugees, at least not by a significant amount. So many people are already dying bc hospitals can’t treat them, they have no shelter, no food, it’s all in rubble. The IDF is leaving them no safe place to go, and do you really, truly believe anything they say? How do you know they’re targeting Hamas at those safe zones and refugee camps? Why would you take anything they say at face value? Why believe them, over the thousands of people in Gaza that are screaming at the world to look and see what is happening? Also I highly suggest you look at Bisan’s tik toks and videos. The Palestinian people are showing you what is happening, telling you. And it’s honestly blown my mind that there’s so many people in this thread who are still believing in the ones leaving pre mature babies to die.
Or they haven't found all the bodies yet, it is an ongoing warzone. I'm not arguing with you just pointing out a pretty big factor that you do need to account for.
Even if we triple the current death toll, it'd only be 2 deaths per bomb dropped. If Israel is trying to genocide Palestinians, that seems incredibly low, and that's assuming there's 40k dead Palestinians that nobody noticed. Unless you've got a source talking about tens of thousands of uncounted dead Palestinians, I don't think that explains it.
I'm gonna need someone to see how many bombs America dropped to kills in Afghanistan then we can get an idea of kills per bomb and how reasonable to rate should be when fighting an insurgency.
The majority of western media is controlled by Israelis? Do you mean people that live in Israel? Or do you mean Jews? And what is the source of your information?
The Israelis are in full force in the comment section. Bring on the down votes losers
This happened right near my childhood home
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Its always crazy when I come across a comment so devoid of literally a basic knowledge of history in the region
You simply have no respect for those Palestinians who were displaced during the Nakba
Do you just ignore all Palestinian actions before 1948? Because neither side has the moral high ground here.
YES, I DO! IT WAS THEIR LAND! THE FUCK THEY GOTTA ANSWER TO YOU OR ANYONE ELSE FOR??? If you really intend to use the Bible to support Jewish land claims, then it behooves you read the part about how THEY BROKE GOD'S CONVENANT 3 TIMES, and by their own actions had GOD HIMSELF KICK THEM OUT!!! If you wanna go Biblical, the Jews are treacherous, idolatrous, back biting people. So please, go ahead and try your best to go pre-1948
That particular stretch of land has been held by the Canonnites, Turks, Egyptians, Phoenicians, Israelis, Palestinians, and a whole host of others. What makes you so convinced it was Palestinian land? Because they had it last before Israel? What about whom they took it from? History is full of people's being displaced by stronger civilizations. Shit happens.
If you came here to tell me that conquest is conquest is conquest, then fuck them Israelis. Conquest is conquest is conquest, right? They knew what they were getting into. But EVERYONE is responsible for their own actions. So the Israelis have themselves to blame for every life lost since taking that land, by your own standard.
Same as the Palestinians have themselves to blame for every life lost since taking that land before Israel took it from them.
So just so we're clear, NONE of their lives matter? What point are you trying to make?
That it isn't Palestinian land. They just so happened to be the most recent ex-occupants. That's my point.
You seem a bit unhinged for a civil history discussion. I'll pass on the invitation to "go biblical".
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The fact that you got down voted for speaking the truth. We are surrounded by absolute morons in this country.
How is Zionism anything like Nazism?
How is it not? They’re telling civilians to evacuate to safe zones and dropping bombs in those safe zones. What do you call that? An oopsie?????
What does that have to do with Nazism? How are you even defining Nazism?
Do you mean aside from the blantant genocide and hatred of innocent people?
A) Genocide =/= Nazism B) You and I still arguing over whether there's a genocide in the other thread.
Apartheid yes, genocide no.
Both in fact are a yes.
There is no argument. That is like arguing over whether the holocaust happened or not
Are you of the opinion that Israel is undeniably genociding the Palestinians? If so, can you explain why Israel has dropped 29k bombs, but only killed 20k Palestinians since Oct 7th? That's less than 1 kill per bomb.
Genocide is now hinging on kill ratios?
If Israel is trying to maximize Palestinian casualties, then it stands to reason that Israel would try to have as many kills per bomb as possible. If that's true, then the only reasons the kill count would be lower than the bombs dropped count is either a) Palestinians are somehow defending themselves from the bombs, or b) Israel is not trying to kill as many Palestinians as possible Can you give me an explanation for why that ratio is so low?
Yes is most definitely is. If Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians, we’d be talking about them in the past tense. It would only take a few hours. But they haven’t. That proves that your hyperbole is laughable.
Genocide of who?
Palestinians. You know, because the IDF told them to go to safe zones and then BOMBED THE SAFE ZONES AND ADMITTED TO IT. If the holocaust were to happen again today, y’all still wouldn’t believe the stories of the victims suffering
Hamas launches rockets from safe zones. Israel shoots back. Legal
Except the “victims” use financial aid to buy paragliders, AKs and RPGs to attack innocent people. I’ve seen the videos from Oct 7th. Every Palestinian death is because of Hamas and the people who support them. Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself from attacks.
I bet you also full heartedly believe schools in the US are implementing litter boxes 🙄🤣
Hamas is shooting rockets from those safe zones
In pretty much every way. If you don't know then you need to educate yourself on whichever one you are ignorant about, or perhaps both.
Wikipedia says that "Nazism is a form of fascism, with disdain for liberal democracy and the parliamentary system. It incorporates a dictatorship, fervent antisemitism, anti-communism, anti-Slavism, scientific racism, white supremacy, Nordicism, social Darwinism and the use of eugenics into its creed." As far as I can tell, non of that applies to Israel.
Dig deeper than Wikipedia. Both are essentially the same thing, the core tennents are the erasure of an ethnic group and an attempt to expand borders to provide living space or "lebestraum" for its own national people.
Is Russia a Nazi country?
It’s absolutely nothing like nazism. You shit on the dead when you equate the two.
You are the one shitting on the dead when you excuse one under the guise of condemning the other.
They don't know. They just regurgitate the same garbage they got from whatever echo chamber they crawled out of.
Found the dummy.
America supports everyone.
How sad. Shot because he was wearing a kuffiyeh, which is worn by literally millions of Arabs. White Zionist supremacy is a hell of a drug.
Where did you read that? The NPR article only says that the shooting is being investigated as a possible hate crime. Have you read an article that gives more details on the motives behind the shooting?
While that is true, anyone with a brain can connect the dots on this one.
I agree that there's a good chance this was a hate crime, but that's not the same thing as confirmation, and I like to distinguish between fact and educated speculation.
" connecting the dots" without proof is just assumptions when it comes to crime. this is how the guilty walk free and the innocent made guilty.
Yeah, who needs due process when you can just jump to conclusions 🤡
Given that this is in the US, it's possible it was just a random shooting, too.
So when did you get indoctrinated?
Indoctrinated into what?? A boy was shot and that’s your reaction?
No, that is their reaction to your reaction and this is my reaction to your reaction of their reaction to your reaction to a boy getting shot.
Palestinian people are literally white. It’s ok to not make everything white man bad.
No they aren’t. No one considers Arabs white. We definitely don’t consider ourselves white. Saddam Hussein would still be alive if he was white lmao. If they were, they’d have a lot more sympathy from the US government like certain white groups (Israelis & Ukrainians!)
Palestinian people are definitely Arab
Correct.
And Arabs are not white. One of the few things that whites Jews and Arabs all agree on. Youvknow how the IDF just slaughtered 3 of their own people who were taken hostage? They shot first, asked questions later. In their own report, they said they decided to identify the bodies because one of the hostages "looked white." Only then did they realize they shot their own people. So you see, the Israelis actually consider themselves white, and there is zero confusion in anyone else's mind that Arabs are brown people, i.e., not white.
I’m not the government or the WHO, I’m just delivering the facts. White/Caucasian is a term used to describe "a person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa" Now if you are a stupid American, yes everything is about a crayon color and not genetic science. It sucks there is genocide in the world and I encourage anyone so inclined, to go to the point of conflict and fight to stop it.
yeaa it's very important to note that they were palestinian
I mean that's WHY they were shot so yeah
Did the article say that? It's certainly possible. But it's not like random shootings are unheard of in the US.
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Any time any person of any ethnicity/nationality/race is killed, it is a hate crime against that group.
If they were in a group together then they could have been targeted for plenty of reasons, eg like carjacking, robbery, etc ...
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No, I'm saying they could have been the "target" of a robbery. Just because they were of a certain ethnicity doesn't meant that' the only possible reason they got shot.
They weren't. Read the article and others reporting on the same.
There is no actual link to the article, just an image file.
It never states in the article why they were shot. We can only assume that is the case.
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Yet, you provide no links. We are referring to the article where it clearly states the FBI is still investigating the “why”. Appreciate your snark, happy holidays.
Anything for clicks
That's such a weird wording. "A brown student". Next we have "a high melanin student" or what.
"Brown University" is the name of the university and is not referring to the ethnicity of the student
Oof. That explains the weird wording lol Was actually laughing out loud and facepalming myself after your reply.
Ok, I'm not downvoting this, it's fucking hilarious
Brown University ffs.
I know what you were going for- it’s some accidental comedy that an Arabic person was referred to by their Alma mater, which was coincidentally also their skin color. I think your downvoters missed your sarcasm.
Big lol
Did they need to call him a brown student?
Brown for brown university not brown for brown skin
obvious joke was obvious
This is really sad and I hope he gets justice for it, but just cause he's Palestinian doesn't mean it's okay for the headline to call him "brown"
Brown is the name of the university...
Random shooting. Ban guns.
That’s not the answer.
Sure is.
Why? So that only criminals can have them? Banning them won’t prevent anything.
Would stop above incident specifically. The gun was legal.
Bad people will get guns whether they are legal or not. It should just be harder to get them legally. There’s one big issue. The 2nd amendment. It’s just we have a mental health crisis in this country and more hate than ever.
Yep. Ban guns. Drugs are banned, so now Ban Guns. Bad people will always get both. Just do it.
Idk why the downvotes, BAN GUNS
You’re not banning my guns. I haven’t shot anyone in months
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i can’t tell if ur being fr but brown university is literally the name of the school
Im not american, didnt know thanks for the info
Serves the terrorist right.
🤡