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For what it's worth I was down with booing Ohtani the first time we saw him, anything past that's dumb
Also he shut us tf up in his first AB, we don't deserve to boo him at this point
Mitch “who?” Parker laughs in the face of your “feared top of the order” (please do not look at what this top of the order did to our other staters a week later thank you)
How dare you question the hitting skills of guys like always healthy Trout, baseball addict Rendon, international fugitive Rengifo, slap hitter Schaunel, broken face Ward, and Drury.
The 2023 outfield depth six-some of platoon hitter Moniak with a 3% walk rate, Renfroe who impressively only hit .171/.231/.302 with RISP on the "no pressure" Angels, Grichuk, 40 games of Brett Phillips, 17 games of Adell who sadly hadnt improved enough yet, and 17 games of an extremely raw Jordyn Adams... need never be forgotten 🙏🏻 . Truly Angels in the OF.
But really, good for Adell that he's starting to show he could be improving this season. Love to see lower strikeouts. Bummer that his jumps for stealing bases are bad.
It would be wild if he was not putting up incredible numbers. That is the most loaded top of the lineup I think I've ever seen. I thought Tatis/Machado/Soto would rival this but good lord. It's unfair.
As a reminder...
Freeman - 7x All Star, 1x MVP, 1x Gold Glove, 3x Silver Slugger. 56.8 career WAR (according to BRef)
Mookie - 7x All Star, 1x MVP, 6x Gold Glove, 6x Silver Slugger, 68.2 career WAR (according to BRef)
Ohtani - 3x All Star, 2x MVP, 2x Silver Slugger, 1x Rookie of the Year, 37.1 career WAR (according to BRef)
I know it’s only 40 games into the season, but this Dodger lineup is the best offensive lineup in the history of baseball by wRC+
It’s actually insane.
Looking forward to the day he reaches 60 bWAR (probably sometime after the All Star break two seasons from now) so people can no longer concern troll over "needing to see him do it a little longer" to make Cooperstown.
Far more likely that being on our fucking trash ass fucking team - that even Mike fucking Trout can't drag to a single fucking playoff win - was holding his development back.
Imagine what Trout's career would look like if he didn't get told to rub some dirt on it by Moreno's Dr. Nick tier medical staff when he began to develop strains
I still can't believe that stat. Not like he was any help that series in 2014 going 1 for 12, but still. Mike TROUT doesn't have a playoff win in his 13+ year career??? One of the greatest players of all time deserves more shots than that (no knock on the Angels, I apply that to any team).
The Rangers have 25 playoff wins since his 2011 debut. The woeful sorry RANGERS for crying out loud. And 33 if you include 2010 when he was on a MiLB roster.
Unbelievable.
The Marlins have gone through multiple **failed** fire sales (to the point of another starting) and have the least amount of wins of all teams since Trout came into the league
They are the objective worst team in baseball since Trout came up
They’ve also made the playoffs twice and have won a series
It’s bonkers what’s happened for the Angels
Crazy how in the prime of Mike “Fucking” Trout’s career he wasn’t even the best player on his team. And the guy who was better than him wasn’t even in his prime yet.
I should probably be locked in baseball analyst jail for this... But what if we looked at the other season where he only DHd to see if he was worth 10 WAR?
Makes you wonder how some of these true 5-tool MLB stars we've had would have been successful two-way players if they were given (and had given themselves) the chance. Betts, Tatis, Trout etc..
This is the same guy who’s played a total of 8.1 innings in the field in the MLB and never had more than 6 oWAR in a season (according to bref)? So to get to 13 he would have to double that offense and still would need to put up an extra 1 dWAR which very few players do. I’d like to see it and I’m sure he’d be excellent in RF because he’s excellent at everything else, but let’s be real here.
A lot of people understand that Ohtani wasn't getting good pitches but they don't know how bad it really was. I don't feel like digging for it on twitter right now but last year was legit one of the worst ever since they've had data on it. Now he has a lineup that forces the other team to pitch to him. Far more likely that's why and not because he isn't pitching.
I like the idea of someone watching baseball games hating on each and every hitter because of how much more they could have maximized each plate appearance if only they were 2004 Barry Bonds.
I shake my head in disgust at Juan Soto's lack of aggressiveness. "Barry Bonds would have hit that 400 feet!" I holler fruitlessly as he trudges back to the dugout, having taken a 95 mph cutter that nicked the bottom inside corner by 0.01 inches. The man in a comically large top hat standing directly in front of me quickly sits down to avoid my spittle, revealing the scoreboard (Yankees 14, Nats 1).
I don't know where *you* went to school, but back in my day getting the answer right less than 60% of the time got you a failing grade... so how the hell are you on base less than 50% of the time? This guy only has two pitches, you should do better than that just guessing! Do you not see the pitch right in front of your face? Do you need glasses or something?
>analyst jail
No, asking this question is technically legal. Just like how it would be legal, thanks to the Patriot Act, if Szymborski was arrested by the military without charge and then held indefinitely at Guantanamo Bay and subjected to enhanced interrogation for six hours a day.
> held indefinitely at Guantanamo Bay and subjected to enhanced interrogation for six hours a day
keep his eyes open like in A Clockwork Orange and make him watch every White Sox game this season... twice
in tradecraft that's what you call "getting the pale hose again"
the Yankees owner at the time was Manticore Toboggan, Frank's great-grandfather. he created wealth, invented wine-in-a-tin-can, and once got busy in a Woolworth's dumpster. he knew how to play Ruth
For real, all these comments are talking about development or lineup protection but isn't the obvious answer just that the physical toll of trying to do both is just too much wear and tear on a body for a full season, every season?
Dude is about to be 30, has 9+ years left on his contract and even some of his healthier LAA seasons, he was still hurt during the playoffs. It just didn't matter because LAA never made the playoffs. It's doesn't seem wild to suggest that, even though watching him do both is so much fun and amazing, LAD could get more long term (and postseason) value out of him by having him do just one.
Yeah, that's sort of goes with my point. This isn't a development or lineup protection issue, he already was the best hitter in baseball last year. That is, until he got hurt. It's not like his body has held up super well trying to do both (150+ games twice, 25+ starts once in the last 7 years).
I'm saying it makes total sense for the Dodgers to consider just not having him pitch again, even though it takes away from the spectacle, because the best hitter in baseball playing for 10+ years and being healthy in the postseason is more valuable than the best hitting in baseball trying to make 22 starts a year and continually getting hurt, because that guy isn't helping you as much in the postseason, or years 6-10 of the contract.
That's kind of the beauty of Shohei, is that he doesn't *have* to do both to get value out of him. I have a feeling that next year he may start the season only hitting, and they work him in the rotation sometime around June, with the idea of keeping the arm fresh for October. If successful, rinse and repeat.
Totally agree, I'd be strongly in favor of confining his pitching for the stretch run and the postseason. That's the time when we could really use an ace-level pitcher.
Fangraphs, specifically Dave Cameron, made the case that pitching ages better than hitting. It's a more gradual decline, especially if you had a big arm and can afford to lose 1-2 mph. So pitcher Shohei might still offer a lot of upside.
It literally doesn't matter because Ohtani has always said pitching comes first for him. Pitching is his craft. Hitting is just something he enjoys.
If you make him pick, he has said he'd pick pitching.
To be fair he had a 1.066 OPS last year while pitching most of the season at an elite level. I would argue having a hitter hit 1.066 and getting an ace in a single roster spot is better than a DH with a 1.139 OPS.
Also, Ohtani has improved year over year offensively for the most part. It’s not out of the question that he’d hit this well if he was also pitching.
Yeah he was on pace for 12 bWAR last year and hit 10 with over a month to go. Knowing that even if he gets injured, he can still provide this kind of value with just his bat while rehabbing, makes it make *less* sense not to have him pitch, not more.
If he wasn't pitching he wouldn't be a DH, he'd be a cannon armed right fielder like Acuna, which would increase his value. That said, his pitching is good enough it's always worth a try. It's not like he's a dude that can pitch when needed, he's a legit ace who also happens to be one of the best hitters in baseball.
honestly especially with Ohtani coming off a second surgery, I'm a little anxious to see if he can be the same level of starting pitcher
but let's just wait and see because i feel like people have written off Ohtani so many times and each time he's proven them wrong
Let's be real, he writes this tweet to get more attention. It's funny people just throw Ohtani's name in YouTube video titles, talk about him for 5 seconds then spend 30 minutes on other things.
Literally using Ohtani's name as a tool. Can't say it's wrong, but it does make me hate the hustle.
Idk, last time he came back from elbow surgery, he started hitting *even better* than before. And I don't think anyone is in a position to doubt him from doing it again.
Absolutely not true. Ohtani had plenty of stretches with the Angels while he was pitching that were better than the stretch he’s on now. It just wasn’t getting as much attention
Mentioned it before, but one of the more impressive things I’ve seen with Ohtani was like 2-3 years ago.
Clay Holmes throws him a 100 mph sinker, Ohtani looks up at the scoreboard, pulls a face, and 2-3 weeks later is throwing his own power sinker.
He saw a nasty pitch, went ‘holy shit, I gotta get me one of those’, and learned it in under a month
Edit: [video](https://twitter.com/PitchingNinja/status/1565293620370055170)
I'm on the opposite site of that spectrum...he could be a 10WAR pitcher if he didn't hit. Go back and look at his 22 numbers. The man is short one MVP and one top 2/3CY finish.
The goal post moving on lineup protection is crazy to me. Guy literally had Mike Trout hitting behind him his whole career and somehow he didn't have enough protection because the guy after Trout wasn't good enough? Also, is there even any actual stats that shows players hit better when better hitters are behind them?
That's fair, i should've looked closer.
Going by baseball reference lineups it seems to change season to season. Last year it was usually Trout then Ohtani until June, in 2022 it was usually Ohtani then Trout until late August. People in this thread are also arguing the whole lineup is helping him, even Betts who hits in front of him
From 2021-2023, the season Trout played the most games and hit behind him most frequently was Ohtani's worst offensive season. Ohtani's best month that season was also one Trout missed half the games. At the same time, Ohtani was even better in June last year then what he's doing right now, when Trout was moved behind him.
Even if it is a thing, it feels so inconsistent and has such a small impact compared to how much people talk about it. You'd think a guys OPS consistently jumps 100+ points just because he has a good hitter behind him with how people talk about it
His development has been bizarre. He has put on more weight than anyone has done naturally since Sammie Sosa, and is the only player to have improved his power numbers coming from Japan to the U.S. After his first TJ he was really bad, and now with the second he is better than before.
He has so much protection in the lineup that you can't compare him as a full time dh to him as a dh + pitcher. You also can't compare it with such a small sample size this year. Let's see how the year goes before we start taking these hot takes seriously.
It's just not mathematically possible to have 10 WAR while having the defensive grading a full time DH gets. David Ortiz and Edgar Martinez never got above 7 WAR in a season (Edgar's best season was **exactly** 7 WAR). Even if Ohtani has a better WAR season than either of those two ever managed, can he even get 8 or 9 WAR? 10 is just not mathematically possible for that position. Ohtani has to not just have a better season than the best full-time DH's the sport ever saw, but **he needs to make the best seasons of Edgar and Ortiz look like a complete joke.**
If Ohtani even gets 8 WAR this year, it'll be the best single season a full-time DH ever put up without question. You're asking for life on Jupiter to have Ohtani put up a 10 WAR season without a lick of defense or pitching.
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What if…not being surrounded by Mookie Betts, Freddie Freeman, and Will Smith was holding Ohtani’s hitting development back?
Good luck hiding from the top of that order, we tried and failed miserably
We boo’d him though, boo’d him *real* good. Bit of a moral victory at least /s
While I don't really support booing Ohtani, I can't argue with your reasoning. Robert Herjavek can go to hell.
Respectfully please remove the /s from “Robert Herjavek can go to hell”
Robert Herjavek is the mastermind behind the Ippei scandal, it all makes sense now
Literally the first time I've ever used it, but yessir!
Many thanks!
For what it's worth I was down with booing Ohtani the first time we saw him, anything past that's dumb Also he shut us tf up in his first AB, we don't deserve to boo him at this point
He may have won the battle, but you won the war.
I think they’re winning the war as well
Be like the Mets and simply walk the top of the order and strike out the rest
Mitch “who?” Parker laughs in the face of your “feared top of the order” (please do not look at what this top of the order did to our other staters a week later thank you)
Same
I like how the western road trip was basically an ex AL East villain tour lol - Machado & Boegarts in SD, Mookie, Glasnow & Teo in LA
How dare you question the hitting skills of guys like always healthy Trout, baseball addict Rendon, international fugitive Rengifo, slap hitter Schaunel, broken face Ward, and Drury.
Man, Drury doesn't even get any adjectives
That's how you know he's the one no one fucks with. No one lives long enough if they give him a "name"
For some reason immediately thought Marcus Brody from Last Crusade. "He'll blend in, disappear, you'll never see him again."
"Does anybody know how to get on base here!"
"Drury got lost in his own locker!"
And Jo Adell when he gets called up several times per season.
The 2023 outfield depth six-some of platoon hitter Moniak with a 3% walk rate, Renfroe who impressively only hit .171/.231/.302 with RISP on the "no pressure" Angels, Grichuk, 40 games of Brett Phillips, 17 games of Adell who sadly hadnt improved enough yet, and 17 games of an extremely raw Jordyn Adams... need never be forgotten 🙏🏻 . Truly Angels in the OF. But really, good for Adell that he's starting to show he could be improving this season. Love to see lower strikeouts. Bummer that his jumps for stealing bases are bad.
You reminded me if the Angels have a Phillips jersey on sale this weekend, I'm going to buy it.
I miss Brett Phillips.
It would be wild if he was not putting up incredible numbers. That is the most loaded top of the lineup I think I've ever seen. I thought Tatis/Machado/Soto would rival this but good lord. It's unfair. As a reminder... Freeman - 7x All Star, 1x MVP, 1x Gold Glove, 3x Silver Slugger. 56.8 career WAR (according to BRef) Mookie - 7x All Star, 1x MVP, 6x Gold Glove, 6x Silver Slugger, 68.2 career WAR (according to BRef) Ohtani - 3x All Star, 2x MVP, 2x Silver Slugger, 1x Rookie of the Year, 37.1 career WAR (according to BRef)
I know it’s only 40 games into the season, but this Dodger lineup is the best offensive lineup in the history of baseball by wRC+ It’s actually insane.
And that's with the Dodgers outfield and Gavin Lux doing almost nothing offensively.
Hey don’t do Andy Pages dirty like that!
And Teoscar! 9 hr and an .814 ops
Followed by will smith, max Muncy, and teoscar hernandez.
I really thought that Padres lineup would light the world on fire. Has to be the biggest disappointment in the last several years.
>I thought Tatis/Machado/Soto would rival this but good lord. It's unfair. Wait… youre forgetting Xander and Kim lol. That top 5 is absolutely nuts.
HA-SEONG KIM! HA-SEONG KIM! HA-SEONG KIM!
You can just say bwar instead of "according to bbref"
Noted, I’ll remember for next time thanks
Looking forward to the day he reaches 60 bWAR (probably sometime after the All Star break two seasons from now) so people can no longer concern troll over "needing to see him do it a little longer" to make Cooperstown.
He’s still batting .370 though, but agreed
I guess it’s true LA money is worth more
Please stop mentioning how good Mookie Betts continues to be.
Exactly. Hopefully people remember that when talking about mvp.
Far more likely that being on our fucking trash ass fucking team - that even Mike fucking Trout can't drag to a single fucking playoff win - was holding his development back.
Strange but true: players tend to hit better when not on a team where 7/9 of the lineup couldn't hit the floor if they rolled out of bed.
this type of team sounds familiar to me...
Yeah I just got a weird feeling in the back of my neck
Darkness imprisoning me
All that I see, Absolute horror
You get used to it
At points you just laugh.
Hell, the Giants basically proved you can win 3 world series with barely any great hitters.
Fucking cody ross.
More of those guys would be able to if Arte invested in things that weren't splash signings, like player development and actual coaching. Alas.
And medical staff who don't still rely on leeches and spells.
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I think he meant 7 out of 9
Imagine what Trouts career would look like if he had a competent lineup around him
Imagine what Trout's career would look like if he didn't get told to rub some dirt on it by Moreno's Dr. Nick tier medical staff when he began to develop strains
Are they sleeping on some kind of single-over-double bunk bed?
That still so crazy to me that two of baseball best players can't get into the playoffs. Really goes to show you how much a team needs to be built
Great, now you got me thinking Felix Hernandez could have been a 10 WAR DH
I still can't believe that stat. Not like he was any help that series in 2014 going 1 for 12, but still. Mike TROUT doesn't have a playoff win in his 13+ year career??? One of the greatest players of all time deserves more shots than that (no knock on the Angels, I apply that to any team). The Rangers have 25 playoff wins since his 2011 debut. The woeful sorry RANGERS for crying out loud. And 33 if you include 2010 when he was on a MiLB roster. Unbelievable.
The Marlins have gone through multiple **failed** fire sales (to the point of another starting) and have the least amount of wins of all teams since Trout came into the league They are the objective worst team in baseball since Trout came up They’ve also made the playoffs twice and have won a series It’s bonkers what’s happened for the Angels
The Rangers have a ring now. They aren’t in the pitiful category anymore
We have 17 playoffs wins since Trout’s debut and are tied (with the Angels) for the longest active playoff drought.
Crazy how in the prime of Mike “Fucking” Trout’s career he wasn’t even the best player on his team. And the guy who was better than him wasn’t even in his prime yet.
Trouts prime was before Ohtani took over, 2012-2018 and he was definitely the best player on the team until 2021
I should probably be locked in baseball analyst jail for this... But what if we looked at the other season where he only DHd to see if he was worth 10 WAR?
TBF, if not for pitching, he'd be an awfully good 10 win right fielder.
Ohtani putting up 30 war at shortstop next year
Mookie is going to try being a starting pitcher next year too
Let’s be real, he’ll probably succeed 😔
Mookie Betts will casually win the 2025 Cy Young, book it
Makes you wonder how some of these true 5-tool MLB stars we've had would have been successful two-way players if they were given (and had given themselves) the chance. Betts, Tatis, Trout etc..
Did someone say shortstop
Like 12 or 13 wins if he wasnt getting the DH positional adjustment and was using that rocket arm to gun down runners.
You sincerely think he could put up a 13 WAR season in right field?
Yes.
I’m not afraid to say I think he might, too
This is the same guy who’s played a total of 8.1 innings in the field in the MLB and never had more than 6 oWAR in a season (according to bref)? So to get to 13 he would have to double that offense and still would need to put up an extra 1 dWAR which very few players do. I’d like to see it and I’m sure he’d be excellent in RF because he’s excellent at everything else, but let’s be real here.
That’s not how WAR works
A lot of people understand that Ohtani wasn't getting good pitches but they don't know how bad it really was. I don't feel like digging for it on twitter right now but last year was legit one of the worst ever since they've had data on it. Now he has a lineup that forces the other team to pitch to him. Far more likely that's why and not because he isn't pitching.
You can put up cartoon level stats with bad pitches. See 04 Barry Bonds.
Barry Bonds was a cartoon, though.
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Ok
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Sounds good
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Barry didn't have a bat, good point.
"Fear was his bat; he didn't need a bat. What if we took his bat away?" - The great philosopher John Bois
I like the idea of someone watching baseball games hating on each and every hitter because of how much more they could have maximized each plate appearance if only they were 2004 Barry Bonds.
LOL
I shake my head in disgust at Juan Soto's lack of aggressiveness. "Barry Bonds would have hit that 400 feet!" I holler fruitlessly as he trudges back to the dugout, having taken a 95 mph cutter that nicked the bottom inside corner by 0.01 inches. The man in a comically large top hat standing directly in front of me quickly sits down to avoid my spittle, revealing the scoreboard (Yankees 14, Nats 1).
Barry Bonds has the same 24 hours per day as you do, what are you, weak and stupid?
I don't know where *you* went to school, but back in my day getting the answer right less than 60% of the time got you a failing grade... so how the hell are you on base less than 50% of the time? This guy only has two pitches, you should do better than that just guessing! Do you not see the pitch right in front of your face? Do you need glasses or something?
>analyst jail No, asking this question is technically legal. Just like how it would be legal, thanks to the Patriot Act, if Szymborski was arrested by the military without charge and then held indefinitely at Guantanamo Bay and subjected to enhanced interrogation for six hours a day.
/r/oddlyspecific
> held indefinitely at Guantanamo Bay and subjected to enhanced interrogation for six hours a day keep his eyes open like in A Clockwork Orange and make him watch every White Sox game this season... twice in tradecraft that's what you call "getting the pale hose again"
Why stop at 6?
It would put a lot of unnecessary strain on the interrogators.
I know what Ippei did was bad, I didn't know they sent him to Gitmo...
Same reason you never deposit $10,000 at once. Paperwork.
You most definitely do deposit $10k at once, because if you intentionally split it up that's structuring
And if you subject someone to enhanced interrogation for 7 days that’s torture.
Depends on their kinks
It is, however, illegal to say [I want to kill the President of the United States of America. ](https://youtu.be/eg3_kUaYFJA?si=ohuN3myDlfGML6Xb)
Waterboard everybody
Maybe those old dead baseball guys actually knew something when they had the Babe stop pitching.
"Babe, you can choose two out of three" "1: Hitting" "2: Pitching" "3: Hot dogs, whiskey, and banging wives and hooors"
"Can I pick 3 twice?"
No way the Babe had the looks or the money to get the ladies if he didn’t pick 1.
I salute your judicious use of Frank Reynolds's pronunciation
the Yankees owner at the time was Manticore Toboggan, Frank's great-grandfather. he created wealth, invented wine-in-a-tin-can, and once got busy in a Woolworth's dumpster. he knew how to play Ruth
For real, all these comments are talking about development or lineup protection but isn't the obvious answer just that the physical toll of trying to do both is just too much wear and tear on a body for a full season, every season? Dude is about to be 30, has 9+ years left on his contract and even some of his healthier LAA seasons, he was still hurt during the playoffs. It just didn't matter because LAA never made the playoffs. It's doesn't seem wild to suggest that, even though watching him do both is so much fun and amazing, LAD could get more long term (and postseason) value out of him by having him do just one.
He was the best hitter in the league last year while pitching. His stats would probably be the same this year if he was pitching.
Yeah, that's sort of goes with my point. This isn't a development or lineup protection issue, he already was the best hitter in baseball last year. That is, until he got hurt. It's not like his body has held up super well trying to do both (150+ games twice, 25+ starts once in the last 7 years). I'm saying it makes total sense for the Dodgers to consider just not having him pitch again, even though it takes away from the spectacle, because the best hitter in baseball playing for 10+ years and being healthy in the postseason is more valuable than the best hitting in baseball trying to make 22 starts a year and continually getting hurt, because that guy isn't helping you as much in the postseason, or years 6-10 of the contract.
That's kind of the beauty of Shohei, is that he doesn't *have* to do both to get value out of him. I have a feeling that next year he may start the season only hitting, and they work him in the rotation sometime around June, with the idea of keeping the arm fresh for October. If successful, rinse and repeat.
Totally agree, I'd be strongly in favor of confining his pitching for the stretch run and the postseason. That's the time when we could really use an ace-level pitcher.
Fangraphs, specifically Dave Cameron, made the case that pitching ages better than hitting. It's a more gradual decline, especially if you had a big arm and can afford to lose 1-2 mph. So pitcher Shohei might still offer a lot of upside.
And his hitting got better as the season went on last year.
TBH, Ohtani could probably play a plus CF.
Yeah, hitter only Ohtani becomes a rangy outfielder with an insane arm.
It literally doesn't matter because Ohtani has always said pitching comes first for him. Pitching is his craft. Hitting is just something he enjoys. If you make him pick, he has said he'd pick pitching.
I don't know why people keep pushing this idea of him giving up pitching lol. It's NOT happening and never will.
Guarantee it’s iron clad in his contract too. Like either by his own requirements or the dodgers
To be fair he had a 1.066 OPS last year while pitching most of the season at an elite level. I would argue having a hitter hit 1.066 and getting an ace in a single roster spot is better than a DH with a 1.139 OPS. Also, Ohtani has improved year over year offensively for the most part. It’s not out of the question that he’d hit this well if he was also pitching.
Yeah he was on pace for 12 bWAR last year and hit 10 with over a month to go. Knowing that even if he gets injured, he can still provide this kind of value with just his bat while rehabbing, makes it make *less* sense not to have him pitch, not more.
If he wasn't pitching he wouldn't be a DH, he'd be a cannon armed right fielder like Acuna, which would increase his value. That said, his pitching is good enough it's always worth a try. It's not like he's a dude that can pitch when needed, he's a legit ace who also happens to be one of the best hitters in baseball.
ñ
he writes this tweet as if he's Aristotle lol obviously if Ohtani only focused on hitting he'd be a better hitter. Probably vise versa too
Twitter is a liar sometimes. If Mac taught us anything, it's that Aristotle was a BITCH
Have you pored over the data, though?
honestly especially with Ohtani coming off a second surgery, I'm a little anxious to see if he can be the same level of starting pitcher but let's just wait and see because i feel like people have written off Ohtani so many times and each time he's proven them wrong
Let's be real, he writes this tweet to get more attention. It's funny people just throw Ohtani's name in YouTube video titles, talk about him for 5 seconds then spend 30 minutes on other things. Literally using Ohtani's name as a tool. Can't say it's wrong, but it does make me hate the hustle.
Dan Szymborski doesn’t need to fight for attention lol It’s crazy what people will project onto you on the internet
Idk, last time he came back from elbow surgery, he started hitting *even better* than before. And I don't think anyone is in a position to doubt him from doing it again.
I think the fairer question is whether he’d have been a 10 WAR outfielder
What if the Angles were holding him back, and not pitching?
He hit 44 homeruns, hit over .300, 95 RBIs while also going 10-5 with a just over 3.00 ERA on a terrible team last year. Idk man maybe he’s just good?
Ichiro had this take a few years ago
This could get into Barry Bonds territory real fast...
He’s got a BABIP over .400.
Absolutely not true. Ohtani had plenty of stretches with the Angels while he was pitching that were better than the stretch he’s on now. It just wasn’t getting as much attention
Just as an example, he had a 275 wRC+ in June last year while pitching 30 innings at a 3.26 ERA lol
I don’t think anything Ohtani has done has gone under the radar in years.
Definitely not “under the radar” but people are acting like this is the best stretch that he’s had and it’s just not true
I was saying this in reverse. If he gave up hitting, he’d probably be one of if not the greatest pitcher ever.
Mentioned it before, but one of the more impressive things I’ve seen with Ohtani was like 2-3 years ago. Clay Holmes throws him a 100 mph sinker, Ohtani looks up at the scoreboard, pulls a face, and 2-3 weeks later is throwing his own power sinker. He saw a nasty pitch, went ‘holy shit, I gotta get me one of those’, and learned it in under a month Edit: [video](https://twitter.com/PitchingNinja/status/1565293620370055170)
Let’s not get carried away or anything.
He just keeps getting better. Give it 3 more years and he'll be the best at both while doing both.
Still less than a 12 WAR overall player
I think what was holding him back was the fact that the only lineup protection he had was the oft-injured Trout lol
I'm on the opposite site of that spectrum...he could be a 10WAR pitcher if he didn't hit. Go back and look at his 22 numbers. The man is short one MVP and one top 2/3CY finish.
Why be 10 WAR if you can be 12 WAR and save a roster spot??
The goal post moving on lineup protection is crazy to me. Guy literally had Mike Trout hitting behind him his whole career and somehow he didn't have enough protection because the guy after Trout wasn't good enough? Also, is there even any actual stats that shows players hit better when better hitters are behind them?
trout played 48% of games in the last three seasons and usually hit ahead of ohtani when he did play
That's fair, i should've looked closer. Going by baseball reference lineups it seems to change season to season. Last year it was usually Trout then Ohtani until June, in 2022 it was usually Ohtani then Trout until late August. People in this thread are also arguing the whole lineup is helping him, even Betts who hits in front of him From 2021-2023, the season Trout played the most games and hit behind him most frequently was Ohtani's worst offensive season. Ohtani's best month that season was also one Trout missed half the games. At the same time, Ohtani was even better in June last year then what he's doing right now, when Trout was moved behind him. Even if it is a thing, it feels so inconsistent and has such a small impact compared to how much people talk about it. You'd think a guys OPS consistently jumps 100+ points just because he has a good hitter behind him with how people talk about it
that I agree with, I'm not sure if there's good analysis of data on this on fangraphs or something but if there is I'd be interested in seeing it
If Ohtani was forced to give up pitching, would he try to pivot to OF or be a DH forever?
it's crazy to think that people were writing off Ohtani back in 2020. hell even before he played his first Major League game
His development has been bizarre. He has put on more weight than anyone has done naturally since Sammie Sosa, and is the only player to have improved his power numbers coming from Japan to the U.S. After his first TJ he was really bad, and now with the second he is better than before.
He has so much protection in the lineup that you can't compare him as a full time dh to him as a dh + pitcher. You also can't compare it with such a small sample size this year. Let's see how the year goes before we start taking these hot takes seriously.
Oh thank God another Ohtani good post. We almost went a full hour without one.
Completely forgotten the previous 6 years or so, have we? Oh, wait ... he was on the Angels then so it was okay.
don't be a salty bitch, friend nobody likes a salty bitch
It's called a hot streak bro. Someone tell the baseball sabermateric nerds to chill out
Honestly, probably yeah. With all the time missed to injury and the fact he is restricted to DH Ohtani has sacrificed a lot of potential for pitching.
It's just not mathematically possible to have 10 WAR while having the defensive grading a full time DH gets. David Ortiz and Edgar Martinez never got above 7 WAR in a season (Edgar's best season was **exactly** 7 WAR). Even if Ohtani has a better WAR season than either of those two ever managed, can he even get 8 or 9 WAR? 10 is just not mathematically possible for that position. Ohtani has to not just have a better season than the best full-time DH's the sport ever saw, but **he needs to make the best seasons of Edgar and Ortiz look like a complete joke.** If Ohtani even gets 8 WAR this year, it'll be the best single season a full-time DH ever put up without question. You're asking for life on Jupiter to have Ohtani put up a 10 WAR season without a lick of defense or pitching.