Dick Grayson choosing Selina over Bruce in Gotham war. Right after we had a great moment with them in Dark crisis somehow we get back to them falling apart. Honestly I would just delete Gotham war as a whole.
Similarly I would say all of them choosing Selina over Bruce. I remember having a good laugh at Zdarsky making Babs say she would totally support her and like an issue later Selina laughing at one of her people almost murdering some random cop. Just lol. That's your champion, Babs.
Lol, exactly. Honestly the most cringe part for me was when Nightwing and Tim Drake are fighting Bruce and Damián and Grayson yells to Bruce that he will not let him ruin Selina's "Peace", right there i had to put the book down lol it was rough.
Tini Howard moment. I think minus the crossover events, Zdarsky has had pretty consistent characterization. Unfortunate that he got derailed so severely
Sorry, but I think Zdarsky has one of the most horrible takes on Joker's past (he shared a mentor with Batman, really???) and Joker's opinion of what he considers the 'true' Batman.
Canonically, Joker, despite claiming to hate the human side of Batman, always ended up choosing to side with Batman who is more humane (e.g. Batman Who Laughs/ Last Knight on Earth, and in many more instances).
Joker shouldn't be so obssesed with someone like Zur who has no reservation about killing. For if one doesn't have a code to begin with, what else is there for Joker to break? What's the fun in that?
But I do agree about Howard. Not a fan of her writing.
Just read Gotham War for the first time…yeah it was trash.
The basic concept of a Batman/Catwoman conflict that splits the family is great. Catwoman’s plan is laughably stupid and Batman’s characterization is all over the place. Is he crazy or not?? One of the worst Batman events in a hot minute
My biggest problem is that yes, Batman is crazy in Gotham War. But everyone else is like "oh he is crazy" for doing literally what he does every other night which is catch criminals and tie em up for the cops to find. Like regardless of what internal conflict was occurring externally he was behaving just the same.
The only moments he acted explicitly under Zur’s control are when he almost lets Tim Drake and Dick Grayson get caught by police. In that scene, Zdarsky explicitly shows Zur’s hand in it.
However, they don’t do that for like any other scene. For example, Jason getting forced mind surgery, doesn’t have this explicit hint. So it makes me wonder if they are saying he’s regularly doing it? It just doesn’t make sense from a narrative perspective.
All of that happens after the big scene where basically the entire Bat-Family gangs up on Bruce.
I am talking about them discussing him being crazy before, he does stuff like that.
Edit:
And yes the fear gas scene is Zur all of it that is Zur. You see Zur’s reflection in a puddle from the first issue when the burglar gets shot and killed and Bruce goes “the mission is tainted”
Right, you see it but Zur doesn’t say anything. Why does he say things sometimes but not other times? If that narrative device is supposed to be used to indicate Batman is losing it, I wish it was more consistent. Sure, Zur is in the puddle. He also shows up in the very beginning and is clearly an influence, but it feels very plot convenient. Is Zur just randomly making house calls?
As for your initial point, yeah I don’t really understand why the batfam is so against him. The reduction in violent crime seems to indicate that Batman is “wrong”, but I just can’t believe that’s how it would shake out. No way in Hell crime would be affected that way, it’s just nonsensical
I agree. I always enjoyed this portrayal of the death of the waynes. The event was a product of a systemic problem rotting away gotham, not some crazy ass conspiracy spear headed by a literal *international ring of pedophiles trying to silence Martha Wayne who was investigating child sex crimes*…. Literally wtf
Edit:
Also I recall the show Gotham had Joe Chill be some other guy who was hired by Thomas Wayne’s best friend Hugo fucking Strange because he wanted to make mutant humans and his project got scrapped
I feel like they can keep all the conspiracy shit but have it where before they had the Wayne's killed, a random mugger, Chill, killed them first.
So they planned to kill them, but Chill randomly got them first.
I feel like this is the only way the Conspiracy angle works. This, or have a young Bruce desperate to make sense of it that he's pulling connections out of nowhere so it only LOOKS like a Conspiracy, until he learns to let go and understand there is no shadowy cabal. If something like the Court of Owls exists in an adaptation, it should be unrelated.
This made me go look them up to see if I could discern what their core purpose is, and lol:
>They are a violent cabal who have used architecture and planned assassinations to wield political influence throughout history.
Even more simply, they're basically just the Illuminati if they were solely concerned with Gotham and nothing else. I don't think they're a bad addition to the lore personally, the notion of Batman fighting an organisation as opposed to individuals is neat, but you can take it or leave it in adaptations frankly.
I used to hate the interpretations/adaptations where Joe Chill wasn’t a random mugger but it’s really grown on me. I still prefer him as a random mugger but I also like that idea this one little order given by some mob boss would later inspire the very thing that becomes the nightmare of organized crime in Gotham. I also think there’s worse things to get rid of
Damian Wayne is my favorite Robin but my biggest issue is how the writers keep soft retconning him by taking away his avenues for growth. They’ll take away w/e they have to revert him back to borderline killer with no social skills. Even though he repeatedly grows out of this. They treat him like Spiderman.
I hate that they aged him up but I do love current Jon. I love when they were the Super Sons but I also love current Jon and how Nightwing is his mentor
1. Tim's break-up with Steph
2. The Bruce/Babs ship
3. The notion of Bruce being mentally unstable
4. All stories where Bruce treats his kids like soldiers
I think Bruce being mentally unstable makes sense but not the point of how it's been shown recently. Like he definitely has trauma (obviously) but he shouldn't be literally insane because of it.
Also, I think the best example of Bruce being confronted by someone about Robin is this clip: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZO5qgs4Px0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZO5qgs4Px0)
Yeah. I think he should be seen as traumatized (because he *is* traumatized), but not as an insane dude who is capable of endangering his own family out of paranoia.
If anything, it should be the opposite. That he's too scared of losing his family out of paranoia so he takes more on himself and doesn't "delegate" enough.
This is the only one that makes sense imo. Bruce doesn't care if he gets hurt, that's been established for decades. His willingness to sacrifice himself should always come across as borderline suicidal. Putting anyone else through that just doesn't make sense for his character.
Nope, check out what Bruce gives as reasons for firing Dickie in Dixon's Nightwing Year One. Or [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/batman/comments/18b9iky/batmans_pride_that_robin_knows_how_to_hang/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). Pops up less frequently now, but although Frank was more or less the originator, he wasn't the only one doing it.
I agree with everything.
Though this will mean that All Star doesn’t happen, and by that extent, the image of Batman using child labor to paint a room yellow just to talk with Green Lantern.
Maybe it’s for the best though, that story arc was all over the place.
All of these, 100% agree with (especially number 3). I'm so sick of the "Bruce is just as crazy as hid enemies" argument. I mean, sure, you could take that approach. Or, how about we just enjoy the fantasy of a billionaire playboy fighting against crime? This insistence that EVERYTHING about Batman needs to be grounded is ruining so many modern stories.
The whole "Batman is a bad person" thing that people keep trying to push.
Like, no. Batman is an extremely tragic character BECAUSE he's a good person who got traumatized to the point where he has an impulse to put himself directly into harms way to deal with his survivors guilt no matter how much good he does.
The fact that they had to go back and retcon it to MAKE him a bad parent to Jason has always bothered me.
DC edicts regarding Bruce - Jason gets even more stupid because they retroactively go back and change Jason into someone who was always angry and prone to violence. I mean, Jason shot up in Bruce's estimation at first meeting because he managed to do what nobody has ever done - and that is make Batman laugh in Crime Alley. And he didn't even take in Jason immediately - it was only after Jason helped uncover the group home he was in as a front for drug running that Bruce's saw the potential for great good in the kid.
Having that origin now shoved aside in favour of 'Batman took in Jason as his son and Robin because he was becoming a petty criminal' is so fucking brain-dead. Bruce sees a kid on the road to becoming a criminal and - brings him home?!?!?! TF is he funding and supervising so many orphanages and foster care facilities through the Foundation for? If anyone can actually match that kind of idiotic motivation with the rest of his characterization in his NUMEROUS books, I'll be damned.
I mean Jason is my least favourite Robin and I'm tired of his constant 'Bruce didn't kill the Joker so I never mattered to him' - but damn the guy deserves a better reason for existing than just being Bruce's problem child and 'failure'. Dick and Bruce already have an untouchable dynamic, he and Tim understand each other so well that their clashes are the rarest amongst the family, and with Damian he has a very complex but deeply emotional bond. Jason - is kinda treated like the crazy bipolar uncle at family gatherings. By EVERYONE.
Bruce being a bad parent I guess? Like I want the only who resents Bruce to really be Jason for not killing the Joker. Oh also I wish that Gotham would have the death penalty that kills the Joker instead of making Bruce responsible cuz that’s just unrealistic and dumb
I read a fic where the citizens of Gotham crowdfunded the Joker's hit after he attacked a preschool
Deathstroke was so proud when Nightwing told him about the contract
One early Joker story (when they were transitioning from the Gangster Joker of his initial stories to the Silver Age Trickster) featured him escaping the boredom of fugitive life by turning himself in over his MANY crimes, getting sentenced to death and executed, and having his minions inject him with a serum that brings him back to life...
I don’t think the death of Tim’s parents necessarily served as motivation since he had already been Robin for a few years by that point. It more so just stagnated the character and removed any unique traits he had in favor making him just another Wayne kid.
Entirely fair for the dad, but mom [for sure](https://www.reddit.com/r/batman/s/BuRNBYBrsm) was killed off to give him a bit more personal investment in that fighting crime thing.
Isn't that already retconned, though? Tomasi's Batman and Robin run mentioned several times that Bruce 'thought' it was love but it was a ruse to 'combine the Wayne and Al-Ghul bloodlines. So, I guess the rape has now been somewhat downgraded to the equivalent of popping holes in condoms. Personally, I don't think that level of deception is any better.
God I really despise that DC couldn’t just leave well enough alone and make a new character that’s Bi instead. Hell I don’t even mind that Tim is bi. But I feel like at this point it has done nothing positive for him and has only resulted in one of the worst runs for the character and being paired with one of the worst love interests on the history of DC. I’d give anything for him to just go back to Steph. Really though it amazes me that both Tim and Jon just have the most bland, worthless love interests currently. Like DC put all their effort on their sexuality and no effort whatsoever on having their S/O’s be worthwhile characters.
Agreed. At worst I’d accept what they went for with The Batman that they were friends with more gnarly people but didn’t think much of it and/or didn’t partake in the criminal lifestyle.👍
I think that concept was based on some level on The Long Halloween, but the Wayne family's guilt over providing emergency surgery for members of the Falcone family is a different debate in several ways...
I know it’s not the most realistic, but the Waynes (that includes Bruce) being rich but at their core good people not hungry for power and glory like most other rich families such as the Cobblepots makes me love them. Nary a rich person alive is like this, but I don’t need my comics about a man dressed as a bat fighting crime to be hyper realistic
I think The Batman and the Telltale games did some interesting stuff with Bruce’s dad not being a complete saint (or iirc for the Telltale games a bastard) and Bruce despite this still doing trying to make Gotham better.
I liked it in the Telltale game because it was a new fresh twist, but like Thomas Wayne being a Batman who kills, it should never become definitive lore.
I mean, he *is* a traumatised man. A part of him never left Crime Alley.
I personally like the idea of Joker and Batman being two sides of a coin. Both of them had One Bad Day that exposed them to how cruel the world was, but both did something different with that realisation.
Yeah I like the idea he’s just as crazy but in a different way. Like he’s the functioning alcoholic equivalent of a Gotham crazy. What sane man goes around in a fucking bat costume with little kids fighting whole ass criminals at night lol he’s def got some screws loose but he goes about his issues in a better way I guess.
This is something I’ve thought about for literal decades. I’ve always felt the better (and more classic) Bat Villains are best described as a “mirror crack’d” reflection of Batman. Each shard represents some aspect of Batman/Bruce’s identity.
Joker is the kind of trauma where you laugh so you don’t go (more) insane while inflicting your trauma on everyone else; as opposed to Bruce suppressing his trauma while making sure nobody else experiences what he went through.
Riddler is the mystery solving, to the exclusion of all else.
Penguin is the rich outcast orphan. (I prefer the nerdy kid bullied because his aunt made him carry an umbrella, and later got into ornithology.)
Manbat is a literal representation of losing himself in his identity.
Killer Croc shows the fight against being treated by people for what they think you are. Croc gives in, but Batman makes sure he can still treat people with compassion.
Mr. Freeze is the fight to rebuild his lost family, even if it harms the whole city.
Two-Face is the fight to manage his duality, fighting his two halves in spite of the cost to other people, compared to Batman doing good at the cost to his own soul.
Catman is Bruce (not Batman) taking the opposite path, toward villainy.
And so on….
That's because it seems like too few writers understand the difference between 'severely traumatized' and 'seriously insane'. For that matter, a lot of the fans too.
Booster Gold attempted that as a wedding gift Bruce and Selina’s wedding. The entire world went Apocalyptic with the first thing Booster finding in the present being Hal using his Willpower to override his Ring’s lethality protocol against himself to end it all while Gotham was ablaze.
Let's not forget that this utter crap story came right after, a superman/booster gold crossover where booster has to go back in time to stop supes from saving krypton from destruction, because Booster KNOWS how important these moments are and that they can't and shouldn't be changed.
There's that famous Batman story ("To Kill A Legend"?) which has Batman and Phantom Stranger save Thomas and Martha in another dimension, but Bruce becomes Batman anyway, not because of trauma, but because of his admiration of superheroes.
The DC Bombshells series began with the Batgirls saving Thomas and Martha Wayne, and ended with a now-adult Bruce adopting his Batman identity in tribute to them...
I like that a rando has been mindplayed into believing he’s Bruce’s brother. I don’t like how they leave it open he might be.
But either way he ends up being a Hush rip off.
The Batfamily turning on Bruce during Gotham Wars. These muppets basically threw all Bruce taught them out the window, and were pikachu faced shocked when it back fired.
I'd like to erase all these knuckleheads who keep saying that Batman has to be crazy, because what kind of sane man puts on a costume and goes out fighting crime at night. If they don't understand the fantasy of the Superhero world, they should leave it to those who are capable of suspending disbelief and allowing their imaginations to take them into realms of infinite possibilities.😤
Seriously, if wearing a costume is enough to label someone as crazy, then that should apply to every person in the JL. So why does it only seem to apply to Bruce?
People like to project their own psychological and emotional weaknesses, and how they never recovered from the Traumatic events faced in their lives onto the Bruce Wayne character.The problem is as with everything in life there are always exceptions.Instead of seeing Bruce as an exceptional example of someone we should all strive to emulate, they attempt to turn him into an imbalanced Headcase closer to themselves, and insist "there has to be something wrong with that guy." The very creation of the Batman is for him to serve as a Symbolic example of being able to rise above life's Traumatic events, and redirect your pain towards a positive purpose.
I would say something more recent like Gotham War, but I’m gonna have to say to bring Alfred back. If he doesn’t die, a lot of bad stuff doesn’t happen, including Gotham war.
Barbara and Jason in Three Jokers. I really don’t think Barbara needs to be paired with every Robin to the point that it feels like disrespectfully seeing her as someone to be passed around. Plus it’d be nice to see her have a platonic relationship with at least one of them.
Can we do a mass erasure? If so I’d like to remove every time superhero Batman fucked a barely-legal daughter figure of his. Please don’t tell me how many erasers this would cost, it doesn’t matter it’s worth it
Yep, this. I’m a queer man and I kind of hate the Bernard thing. At first I was hype because my favourite Robin was confirmed queer. But then the novelty wore off, and I realised it was a waste of a plot line.
If you’re gonna give Tim a male love interest, make him as engaging and complex as his previous lovers! It just feels like they don’t care… like all that is important about him is that he’s a guy, and the relationship is queer. Really insulting. Total let down.
James Gordon jrs age makes no sense to me unless a significant amount of time has passed in Batman comics compared to the rest of the DCU. I love black mirror but I would try to fix that
Anything that has to do with the notion that batman is an edgelord like in the dcu.
Batman is best written when hes COMPASSIONATE and him being a badass is just a byproduct of his trauma and how he coped.
Ill admit that i dont read comics and most of my experience watching batman has been batman: the animated series where Bruce is voiced by the LEGENDARY and DEFINITIVE voice of the dark knight, Kevin Conroy, but that show was amazing and honestly, id always argue that its the best depiction of batman. That version of him.
If the dcu and the other animated shows depicted batman like that, i guarantee that it would be way more loved and make way more money than the batman(s) we get today.
Not even the first iterations of batman can compare. I actually think they suck real funky eggs.
I want the batman who gives everyone hope because he wants to be what he always wishes HE had when he was that helpless and innocent child in danger and all alone. I hate the gritty fucking emotionless or rage incarnate batman who treats people like he doesn't care.
The real batman has a heart that can make you smile and make you cry.
I would erase Joe Chill and make it so Thomas and Martha Wayne's killer is never identified.
I never liked the idea of Bruce ever finding him. It should remain an unsolved random killing. And definitely not part of some grand conspiracy.
The DCAU Spin-off comic Batman Adventures did a pretty interesting spin on this for its finale story.>! An ageing Joe Chill, driven to near-madness by the prospect of his double murder being exposed, makes a desperate bid to get rid of the senior cop who has the evidence linking him to the crime. Chill encounters Batman and accidentally unmasks him, but seeing Bruce Wayne's face causes him to break completely and he falls off a balcony to his death. Batman doesn't know why Chill had such an extreme reaction, and continues with his crimefighting, accepting he'll never know who caused his parent's deaths... !<
Honestly that wouldn’t have stopped Bruce. Clark did. Still considering the amount of Crimes he did you’d think at least one person in Iran would have the brain power to understand that Joker is the single worst candidate. What happened afterwards they all deserved.
This is a bit cheeky here, but I would erase that Selina left Bruce before their wedding. Prove the Joker wrong and show we can have a happy Batman fight with his family like good ol’ chums!
Oh man so much
Bruce being practical to the point of being downright cruel
Zur-eh-ahh, the whole concept is stupid af
Gotham war
Alfred dying
Thomas wayne going batshit and trying to attack his own son
Batman's identity being figured out
Red hood using a crowbar (seriously, idk who came up with this, but its so fucking dumb)
And many more.
EDIT: I just noticed you said one, but im still gonna leave all this here.
So we're not all harping on the same thing
Bruce's not death death and revival.
A) They should have absolutely not immediately pushed a "don't worry guys he's not dead" narrative
B) his death should have lasted YEARS
Honestly, Damian Wayne being born.
I would even add Tim Drake becoming a Robin. (If I was allowed two things.)
I would have preferred a Batman that truly took Jason's death to heart (even after he came back as the Red Hood), and promised himself that he would never put another soul in harms way like that again.
Nah, I think he needs Robin. That’s the whole reason Tim approached Batman, losing Jason really messed with him and made him more aggressive.
Plus Tim is an awesome character (or at least was), so it’d suck to see him go.
Depends on exactly what you mean. If it’s being erased from our timeline to, I’d say Babs getting her legs back, and subsequently becoming Batgirl again, erasing Cass and Steph from existence for like 5 years. That would definitely piss some people off though, so like I said it would have to be erased from our universe too. Not an actual retcon, just a thing that never happened.
If it isn’t being erased like that, and we’re just doing a normal retcon, I don’t know if I’d go with anything. I’d more quickly advocate for trying to work with something over just plugging our ears and saying it never happened. I suppose it would be Gotham War related, like everyone is saying. None of those characters should go along with Selina’s ridiculous plan, and it just seems forced to drive a wedge between Bruce and the rest of the family.
The Whole Jim Gordon becoming Batman and then creating Batbot!! That along with Superman with Jeans, Superman Tee and buzz cut was the worst of New 52.
^ This. They really shouldn't have killed off Alfred, but if they're going to, they should have given him a more meaningful and narratively earned death.
I'll count 'downsizing the Bat Family' as 'one thing', and by downsizing the Bat Family, I mean I'd erase Clown Hunter, Ghost Maker, and Luke Fox at the very least, and I'd reverse the decision to have Harley Quinn join the Bat Family.
Can I do Superboy Prime bringing Jason Todd back to life? It just kinda confused me. Under the red hood made more sense with them throwing him into the Las Vegas pit
The goofy recovery Bruce had for his spine, post Knightfall. It's been a minute, but I vaguely remember someone getting a healing superpower. Correct me of I'm wrong, but it seemed awfully convenient back then.
Oh boy, do I choose the rooftop rape?
Cassandra Cain being completely changed because an editor was infuriated that she could match Batman and wasn't neurotypical?
Batman and Batgirl hooking up?
Babs being paralyzed and magically nobody could fix HER spine?
Choices choices...
Talia raping Bruce. The way writers have handled her character post 9/11 is just insanely racist.
Honestly just the way they’ve handled Jason’s characterization pre Red Hood? I feel like a lot of comics nowadays shifted the fact that Jason died because he wanted to help someone and wanted to believe the best in his mom to Jason died because he was angry and reckless.
The way Barbara has literally gotten with every brother besides Damian. Like she deserves to be her own character without being paired up with Dick, or Jason or Tim. Also just get rid of any mention of her and Bruce being together.
And finally, Gotham War.
Dick Grayson choosing Selina over Bruce in Gotham war. Right after we had a great moment with them in Dark crisis somehow we get back to them falling apart. Honestly I would just delete Gotham war as a whole.
Similarly I would say all of them choosing Selina over Bruce. I remember having a good laugh at Zdarsky making Babs say she would totally support her and like an issue later Selina laughing at one of her people almost murdering some random cop. Just lol. That's your champion, Babs.
Lol, exactly. Honestly the most cringe part for me was when Nightwing and Tim Drake are fighting Bruce and Damián and Grayson yells to Bruce that he will not let him ruin Selina's "Peace", right there i had to put the book down lol it was rough.
The "peace" ended the same very evening, lmao. You can't make that shit up.
I mean, you clearly can.
Zdarsky moment
Tini Howard moment. I think minus the crossover events, Zdarsky has had pretty consistent characterization. Unfortunate that he got derailed so severely
Sorry, but I think Zdarsky has one of the most horrible takes on Joker's past (he shared a mentor with Batman, really???) and Joker's opinion of what he considers the 'true' Batman. Canonically, Joker, despite claiming to hate the human side of Batman, always ended up choosing to side with Batman who is more humane (e.g. Batman Who Laughs/ Last Knight on Earth, and in many more instances). Joker shouldn't be so obssesed with someone like Zur who has no reservation about killing. For if one doesn't have a code to begin with, what else is there for Joker to break? What's the fun in that? But I do agree about Howard. Not a fan of her writing.
Zdarsky's run hasn't been as mind blowing as I'd hoped, but damn did Gotham War screw with it big time.
FUCKING YES I HATE GOTHAM WAR LIKE JUST ERASE IT FROM EXISTENCE AND MY MEMORY TOO like and what batman did to jason ugh
Just read Gotham War for the first time…yeah it was trash. The basic concept of a Batman/Catwoman conflict that splits the family is great. Catwoman’s plan is laughably stupid and Batman’s characterization is all over the place. Is he crazy or not?? One of the worst Batman events in a hot minute
My biggest problem is that yes, Batman is crazy in Gotham War. But everyone else is like "oh he is crazy" for doing literally what he does every other night which is catch criminals and tie em up for the cops to find. Like regardless of what internal conflict was occurring externally he was behaving just the same.
The only moments he acted explicitly under Zur’s control are when he almost lets Tim Drake and Dick Grayson get caught by police. In that scene, Zdarsky explicitly shows Zur’s hand in it. However, they don’t do that for like any other scene. For example, Jason getting forced mind surgery, doesn’t have this explicit hint. So it makes me wonder if they are saying he’s regularly doing it? It just doesn’t make sense from a narrative perspective.
All of that happens after the big scene where basically the entire Bat-Family gangs up on Bruce. I am talking about them discussing him being crazy before, he does stuff like that. Edit: And yes the fear gas scene is Zur all of it that is Zur. You see Zur’s reflection in a puddle from the first issue when the burglar gets shot and killed and Bruce goes “the mission is tainted”
Right, you see it but Zur doesn’t say anything. Why does he say things sometimes but not other times? If that narrative device is supposed to be used to indicate Batman is losing it, I wish it was more consistent. Sure, Zur is in the puddle. He also shows up in the very beginning and is clearly an influence, but it feels very plot convenient. Is Zur just randomly making house calls? As for your initial point, yeah I don’t really understand why the batfam is so against him. The reduction in violent crime seems to indicate that Batman is “wrong”, but I just can’t believe that’s how it would shake out. No way in Hell crime would be affected that way, it’s just nonsensical
I was about to type the same thing until I read this. I couldn’t agree more.
I skipped gotham war it didn't look that good to me.
The fact that Batman has reunited with both the Batfam and Catwoman really highlights how pointless that was...
The term raggedy b***** was only fitting for the whole bat family for switching out on Bruce like that.
The idea that Joe Chill was anything but a random mugger who got scared and pulled the trigger to early
This. Batman was created by a random senseless act of violence and desperation, not a grand conspiracy
I agree. I always enjoyed this portrayal of the death of the waynes. The event was a product of a systemic problem rotting away gotham, not some crazy ass conspiracy spear headed by a literal *international ring of pedophiles trying to silence Martha Wayne who was investigating child sex crimes*…. Literally wtf Edit: Also I recall the show Gotham had Joe Chill be some other guy who was hired by Thomas Wayne’s best friend Hugo fucking Strange because he wanted to make mutant humans and his project got scrapped
I feel like they can keep all the conspiracy shit but have it where before they had the Wayne's killed, a random mugger, Chill, killed them first. So they planned to kill them, but Chill randomly got them first.
I feel like this is the only way the Conspiracy angle works. This, or have a young Bruce desperate to make sense of it that he's pulling connections out of nowhere so it only LOOKS like a Conspiracy, until he learns to let go and understand there is no shadowy cabal. If something like the Court of Owls exists in an adaptation, it should be unrelated.
Man, i still, to this day, have no idea why the Court of Owls exists, other than to further convolute the Gotham/Batman lore
This made me go look them up to see if I could discern what their core purpose is, and lol: >They are a violent cabal who have used architecture and planned assassinations to wield political influence throughout history.
Even more simply, they're basically just the Illuminati if they were solely concerned with Gotham and nothing else. I don't think they're a bad addition to the lore personally, the notion of Batman fighting an organisation as opposed to individuals is neat, but you can take it or leave it in adaptations frankly.
I just find the combo of "architecture and planned assassinations" really funny. More like an old school villain, "Mr. Builder" lmao
I would even get rid of his name and identity. Leave the Wayne's murder as a mystery.
Nah I like having the person be real. It gives us something tangible to want to hate but can’t or we’d just be proving the joker right.
I used to hate the interpretations/adaptations where Joe Chill wasn’t a random mugger but it’s really grown on me. I still prefer him as a random mugger but I also like that idea this one little order given by some mob boss would later inspire the very thing that becomes the nightmare of organized crime in Gotham. I also think there’s worse things to get rid of
That’s pretty much always been canon for as long as Chill has existed.
From 1948-1985, lew moxon hired Joe chill to kill them.
I support this. If Joe Chill is a person, it is no longer Gotham that killed the Waynes, but an individual. It diminishes Batman’s mission.
Damian Wayne’s best friend getting aged up
Right! That was so weird… let the kid have friends his age dammit! Retcon that dumb shit!
Damian Wayne is my favorite Robin but my biggest issue is how the writers keep soft retconning him by taking away his avenues for growth. They’ll take away w/e they have to revert him back to borderline killer with no social skills. Even though he repeatedly grows out of this. They treat him like Spiderman.
They either revert a character or age them up and literally nothing in between
100% this. Just waiting for the universe to reset so we can have Super Sons back
I hate that they aged him up but I do love current Jon. I love when they were the Super Sons but I also love current Jon and how Nightwing is his mentor
1. Tim's break-up with Steph 2. The Bruce/Babs ship 3. The notion of Bruce being mentally unstable 4. All stories where Bruce treats his kids like soldiers
I think Bruce being mentally unstable makes sense but not the point of how it's been shown recently. Like he definitely has trauma (obviously) but he shouldn't be literally insane because of it. Also, I think the best example of Bruce being confronted by someone about Robin is this clip: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZO5qgs4Px0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZO5qgs4Px0)
Yeah. I think he should be seen as traumatized (because he *is* traumatized), but not as an insane dude who is capable of endangering his own family out of paranoia.
If anything, it should be the opposite. That he's too scared of losing his family out of paranoia so he takes more on himself and doesn't "delegate" enough.
This is the only one that makes sense imo. Bruce doesn't care if he gets hurt, that's been established for decades. His willingness to sacrifice himself should always come across as borderline suicidal. Putting anyone else through that just doesn't make sense for his character.
Wow, great line that says so much
I think all the stories where batman treats his kids as soldiers are only in the works of frank miller
Nope, check out what Bruce gives as reasons for firing Dickie in Dixon's Nightwing Year One. Or [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/batman/comments/18b9iky/batmans_pride_that_robin_knows_how_to_hang/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). Pops up less frequently now, but although Frank was more or less the originator, he wasn't the only one doing it.
Oh. I stand corrected
Agreed 100%
Regarding #3, I’m a big Moon Knight fan and lately, Bruce has been making my guy look pretty damn level headed by comparison.
I honestly agree lol
It also helps that moon knight has been more mentally stable recently
I agree with everything. Though this will mean that All Star doesn’t happen, and by that extent, the image of Batman using child labor to paint a room yellow just to talk with Green Lantern. Maybe it’s for the best though, that story arc was all over the place.
Yeah, the memes are fun, but Batman's characterization is still more important.
With point 4 I would try to patch it has a coping mechanism for his guilt of not being capable of saving Jason
Only one although I agree with all your choices.
All of these, 100% agree with (especially number 3). I'm so sick of the "Bruce is just as crazy as hid enemies" argument. I mean, sure, you could take that approach. Or, how about we just enjoy the fantasy of a billionaire playboy fighting against crime? This insistence that EVERYTHING about Batman needs to be grounded is ruining so many modern stories.
The whole "Batman is a bad person" thing that people keep trying to push. Like, no. Batman is an extremely tragic character BECAUSE he's a good person who got traumatized to the point where he has an impulse to put himself directly into harms way to deal with his survivors guilt no matter how much good he does. The fact that they had to go back and retcon it to MAKE him a bad parent to Jason has always bothered me.
DC edicts regarding Bruce - Jason gets even more stupid because they retroactively go back and change Jason into someone who was always angry and prone to violence. I mean, Jason shot up in Bruce's estimation at first meeting because he managed to do what nobody has ever done - and that is make Batman laugh in Crime Alley. And he didn't even take in Jason immediately - it was only after Jason helped uncover the group home he was in as a front for drug running that Bruce's saw the potential for great good in the kid. Having that origin now shoved aside in favour of 'Batman took in Jason as his son and Robin because he was becoming a petty criminal' is so fucking brain-dead. Bruce sees a kid on the road to becoming a criminal and - brings him home?!?!?! TF is he funding and supervising so many orphanages and foster care facilities through the Foundation for? If anyone can actually match that kind of idiotic motivation with the rest of his characterization in his NUMEROUS books, I'll be damned. I mean Jason is my least favourite Robin and I'm tired of his constant 'Bruce didn't kill the Joker so I never mattered to him' - but damn the guy deserves a better reason for existing than just being Bruce's problem child and 'failure'. Dick and Bruce already have an untouchable dynamic, he and Tim understand each other so well that their clashes are the rarest amongst the family, and with Damian he has a very complex but deeply emotional bond. Jason - is kinda treated like the crazy bipolar uncle at family gatherings. By EVERYONE.
Batman and Babs one night stand
The fact that I have to ask which one you mean is depressing.
Holy shit I completely forgot about that. Definitely 💀
only correct answer
This only happens in the DCAU comics, not main continuity for any concerned, but it definitely should be erased from existence regardless.
Also in the Killing Joke animated movie, so another continuity to add
Babs talks about her and Bruce dating in the Batman Beyond show. It's very much not only in the DCAU comics.
Well, the comics is where it happens for the DCAU, but what I mean is in the mainline DC universe this is not something that ever happens.
Ah, gotcha. I misunderstood. Thanks for clarifying. Cheers!
Bruce being a bad parent I guess? Like I want the only who resents Bruce to really be Jason for not killing the Joker. Oh also I wish that Gotham would have the death penalty that kills the Joker instead of making Bruce responsible cuz that’s just unrealistic and dumb
Or at least a comic where they try to execute him but he escapes or something
I read a fic where the citizens of Gotham crowdfunded the Joker's hit after he attacked a preschool Deathstroke was so proud when Nightwing told him about the contract
One early Joker story (when they were transitioning from the Gangster Joker of his initial stories to the Silver Age Trickster) featured him escaping the boredom of fugitive life by turning himself in over his MANY crimes, getting sentenced to death and executed, and having his minions inject him with a serum that brings him back to life...
Timbo’s dad kicking the bucket
Mom too. Not everyone needs a dead parent for motivation.
I don’t think the death of Tim’s parents necessarily served as motivation since he had already been Robin for a few years by that point. It more so just stagnated the character and removed any unique traits he had in favor making him just another Wayne kid.
Entirely fair for the dad, but mom [for sure](https://www.reddit.com/r/batman/s/BuRNBYBrsm) was killed off to give him a bit more personal investment in that fighting crime thing.
***Batman and Robin…orphans.*** Gets me every time.
[удалено]
It'll be erased some way or another. Alfred will come back in some form eventually
Comic books. They always come back.
The only good thing to come from this was Joker being pissed off and going after Bane for this wasted opportunity.
Talia drugging and raping Bruce to conceive Damian.
Yep. The way they’ve done Talia’s character after 9/11 has been insanely racist.
Yep I hate it
I shouldn't have had to scroll so long to see this
Isn't that already retconned, though? Tomasi's Batman and Robin run mentioned several times that Bruce 'thought' it was love but it was a ruse to 'combine the Wayne and Al-Ghul bloodlines. So, I guess the rape has now been somewhat downgraded to the equivalent of popping holes in condoms. Personally, I don't think that level of deception is any better.
I think a court ruled that this is also rape.
I don't mind Tim being Bi but to spend decades on his relationship with Steph makes the fans feel they belong together. Pulling them apart sucks.
God I really despise that DC couldn’t just leave well enough alone and make a new character that’s Bi instead. Hell I don’t even mind that Tim is bi. But I feel like at this point it has done nothing positive for him and has only resulted in one of the worst runs for the character and being paired with one of the worst love interests on the history of DC. I’d give anything for him to just go back to Steph. Really though it amazes me that both Tim and Jon just have the most bland, worthless love interests currently. Like DC put all their effort on their sexuality and no effort whatsoever on having their S/O’s be worthwhile characters.
3 jokers
I like the idea, just not how the story went.
I liked the DC black label story ... but they said it was not in the mainstream continuity.
I love it…..as long as it’s not canon
any notion that the Waynes were anything other than good, upstanding citizens of Gotham...
Agreed. At worst I’d accept what they went for with The Batman that they were friends with more gnarly people but didn’t think much of it and/or didn’t partake in the criminal lifestyle.👍
I think that concept was based on some level on The Long Halloween, but the Wayne family's guilt over providing emergency surgery for members of the Falcone family is a different debate in several ways...
I know it’s not the most realistic, but the Waynes (that includes Bruce) being rich but at their core good people not hungry for power and glory like most other rich families such as the Cobblepots makes me love them. Nary a rich person alive is like this, but I don’t need my comics about a man dressed as a bat fighting crime to be hyper realistic
I think The Batman and the Telltale games did some interesting stuff with Bruce’s dad not being a complete saint (or iirc for the Telltale games a bastard) and Bruce despite this still doing trying to make Gotham better.
I liked it in the Telltale game because it was a new fresh twist, but like Thomas Wayne being a Batman who kills, it should never become definitive lore.
Lets face it Alfred would not be as loyal as he was to a family of scum.
The idea that Batman is as crazy as his villains.
I mean, he *is* a traumatised man. A part of him never left Crime Alley. I personally like the idea of Joker and Batman being two sides of a coin. Both of them had One Bad Day that exposed them to how cruel the world was, but both did something different with that realisation.
Yeah I like the idea he’s just as crazy but in a different way. Like he’s the functioning alcoholic equivalent of a Gotham crazy. What sane man goes around in a fucking bat costume with little kids fighting whole ass criminals at night lol he’s def got some screws loose but he goes about his issues in a better way I guess.
“Well, a guy who dresses up like a bat clearly has issues.” - Christian Bale… Batman Begins (2005)
I thought that was TDK?
exactly, bruce is a functioning alcoholic while the joker is the abusive dad with a belt
This is something I’ve thought about for literal decades. I’ve always felt the better (and more classic) Bat Villains are best described as a “mirror crack’d” reflection of Batman. Each shard represents some aspect of Batman/Bruce’s identity. Joker is the kind of trauma where you laugh so you don’t go (more) insane while inflicting your trauma on everyone else; as opposed to Bruce suppressing his trauma while making sure nobody else experiences what he went through. Riddler is the mystery solving, to the exclusion of all else. Penguin is the rich outcast orphan. (I prefer the nerdy kid bullied because his aunt made him carry an umbrella, and later got into ornithology.) Manbat is a literal representation of losing himself in his identity. Killer Croc shows the fight against being treated by people for what they think you are. Croc gives in, but Batman makes sure he can still treat people with compassion. Mr. Freeze is the fight to rebuild his lost family, even if it harms the whole city. Two-Face is the fight to manage his duality, fighting his two halves in spite of the cost to other people, compared to Batman doing good at the cost to his own soul. Catman is Bruce (not Batman) taking the opposite path, toward villainy. And so on….
That's because it seems like too few writers understand the difference between 'severely traumatized' and 'seriously insane'. For that matter, a lot of the fans too.
Every time that Bruce was treated as a shitty father and every time Talia was treated as a raper.
Talia should really stick with being an assassin instead of trying to become a rapper, her lyrics are really bad /s
The shooting of Martha and Thomas Wayne. Just remove that first domino, see what happens.
Booster Gold attempted that as a wedding gift Bruce and Selina’s wedding. The entire world went Apocalyptic with the first thing Booster finding in the present being Hal using his Willpower to override his Ring’s lethality protocol against himself to end it all while Gotham was ablaze.
Let's not forget that this utter crap story came right after, a superman/booster gold crossover where booster has to go back in time to stop supes from saving krypton from destruction, because Booster KNOWS how important these moments are and that they can't and shouldn't be changed.
Well, I’d do it better.
There's that famous Batman story ("To Kill A Legend"?) which has Batman and Phantom Stranger save Thomas and Martha in another dimension, but Bruce becomes Batman anyway, not because of trauma, but because of his admiration of superheroes. The DC Bombshells series began with the Batgirls saving Thomas and Martha Wayne, and ended with a now-adult Bruce adopting his Batman identity in tribute to them...
Bruce's secret long lost Court of Owls brother
Such a weird storyline. Made Martha’s charity work seem selfish too. Bad decisions all around.
MARTHA?!
Why did you say that name?!
They did a good enough job of making it a "maybe" that it doesn't bother me too much. Though I have only read the Court of Owls.
I like that a rando has been mindplayed into believing he’s Bruce’s brother. I don’t like how they leave it open he might be. But either way he ends up being a Hush rip off.
Gotham War
Bruce and Selina not getting married. Goddamn it DC, if Superman is allowed to be happily married why isn’t Batman?!
Cuz he’s Batman that’s like trying to give Spider-Man a happy life lol
The Batfamily turning on Bruce during Gotham Wars. These muppets basically threw all Bruce taught them out the window, and were pikachu faced shocked when it back fired.
Bruce Durant equally sounds like a playboy billionaire
Bruce ever having a relationship with Barbara Gordon. Yuck…. Just yuck.
I'd like to erase all these knuckleheads who keep saying that Batman has to be crazy, because what kind of sane man puts on a costume and goes out fighting crime at night. If they don't understand the fantasy of the Superhero world, they should leave it to those who are capable of suspending disbelief and allowing their imaginations to take them into realms of infinite possibilities.😤
Seriously, if wearing a costume is enough to label someone as crazy, then that should apply to every person in the JL. So why does it only seem to apply to Bruce?
People like to project their own psychological and emotional weaknesses, and how they never recovered from the Traumatic events faced in their lives onto the Bruce Wayne character.The problem is as with everything in life there are always exceptions.Instead of seeing Bruce as an exceptional example of someone we should all strive to emulate, they attempt to turn him into an imbalanced Headcase closer to themselves, and insist "there has to be something wrong with that guy." The very creation of the Batman is for him to serve as a Symbolic example of being able to rise above life's Traumatic events, and redirect your pain towards a positive purpose.
I would say something more recent like Gotham War, but I’m gonna have to say to bring Alfred back. If he doesn’t die, a lot of bad stuff doesn’t happen, including Gotham war.
Alfred's death.
Barbara and Jason in Three Jokers. I really don’t think Barbara needs to be paired with every Robin to the point that it feels like disrespectfully seeing her as someone to be passed around. Plus it’d be nice to see her have a platonic relationship with at least one of them.
The shit he did to Red Hood in Gotham War. Thats so unbelievably fucked up and out of character.
Can we do a mass erasure? If so I’d like to remove every time superhero Batman fucked a barely-legal daughter figure of his. Please don’t tell me how many erasers this would cost, it doesn’t matter it’s worth it
All of gotham war, it was just a shitty concept from the get go
Borenard
Yep, this. I’m a queer man and I kind of hate the Bernard thing. At first I was hype because my favourite Robin was confirmed queer. But then the novelty wore off, and I realised it was a waste of a plot line. If you’re gonna give Tim a male love interest, make him as engaging and complex as his previous lovers! It just feels like they don’t care… like all that is important about him is that he’s a guy, and the relationship is queer. Really insulting. Total let down.
Bruce Wayne's eyebrows
The common batman never is happy and dies a bitter old man.
every single romance between bruce and barbara
Bruce and Barbra dating. Like ever.
Babs being used as a love interest for the BatFam. She deserves better and should only date exclusively outside the BatFamily.
hard agree
Every story that has Bruce beating up his kids
Bruce dating batgirl
Dick getting sexually assaulted TWICE…
Give me Alfred back
James Gordon jrs age makes no sense to me unless a significant amount of time has passed in Batman comics compared to the rest of the DCU. I love black mirror but I would try to fix that
Bruce and Selina not getting married. Gotham War might’ve never happened and Batman could finally have a stable relationship
Anything that has to do with the notion that batman is an edgelord like in the dcu. Batman is best written when hes COMPASSIONATE and him being a badass is just a byproduct of his trauma and how he coped. Ill admit that i dont read comics and most of my experience watching batman has been batman: the animated series where Bruce is voiced by the LEGENDARY and DEFINITIVE voice of the dark knight, Kevin Conroy, but that show was amazing and honestly, id always argue that its the best depiction of batman. That version of him. If the dcu and the other animated shows depicted batman like that, i guarantee that it would be way more loved and make way more money than the batman(s) we get today. Not even the first iterations of batman can compare. I actually think they suck real funky eggs. I want the batman who gives everyone hope because he wants to be what he always wishes HE had when he was that helpless and innocent child in danger and all alone. I hate the gritty fucking emotionless or rage incarnate batman who treats people like he doesn't care. The real batman has a heart that can make you smile and make you cry.
Jervis Tetch being a pedophile
I would erase Joe Chill and make it so Thomas and Martha Wayne's killer is never identified. I never liked the idea of Bruce ever finding him. It should remain an unsolved random killing. And definitely not part of some grand conspiracy.
I do like that idea that the one murder he can never solve is the one of his parents.
The DCAU Spin-off comic Batman Adventures did a pretty interesting spin on this for its finale story.>! An ageing Joe Chill, driven to near-madness by the prospect of his double murder being exposed, makes a desperate bid to get rid of the senior cop who has the evidence linking him to the crime. Chill encounters Batman and accidentally unmasks him, but seeing Bruce Wayne's face causes him to break completely and he falls off a balcony to his death. Batman doesn't know why Chill had such an extreme reaction, and continues with his crimefighting, accepting he'll never know who caused his parent's deaths... !<
when joker became the un ambassador of iran to get immunity
Honestly that wouldn’t have stopped Bruce. Clark did. Still considering the amount of Crimes he did you’d think at least one person in Iran would have the brain power to understand that Joker is the single worst candidate. What happened afterwards they all deserved.
Bring back Alfred!
This is a bit cheeky here, but I would erase that Selina left Bruce before their wedding. Prove the Joker wrong and show we can have a happy Batman fight with his family like good ol’ chums!
Oh man so much Bruce being practical to the point of being downright cruel Zur-eh-ahh, the whole concept is stupid af Gotham war Alfred dying Thomas wayne going batshit and trying to attack his own son Batman's identity being figured out Red hood using a crowbar (seriously, idk who came up with this, but its so fucking dumb) And many more. EDIT: I just noticed you said one, but im still gonna leave all this here.
Need some context what’s happening in the pic here EDIT: I got the context. I understand now.
So we're not all harping on the same thing Bruce's not death death and revival. A) They should have absolutely not immediately pushed a "don't worry guys he's not dead" narrative B) his death should have lasted YEARS
Ric. Just Ric.
The first half of Batman’s name
All the unwarranted attention Harley Quinn has gotten since 2016.
So the Suicide Squad movie.
Honestly, Damian Wayne being born. I would even add Tim Drake becoming a Robin. (If I was allowed two things.) I would have preferred a Batman that truly took Jason's death to heart (even after he came back as the Red Hood), and promised himself that he would never put another soul in harms way like that again.
Nah, I think he needs Robin. That’s the whole reason Tim approached Batman, losing Jason really messed with him and made him more aggressive. Plus Tim is an awesome character (or at least was), so it’d suck to see him go.
Zdarski with his failsafe and cardboard Tim Drake
Depends on exactly what you mean. If it’s being erased from our timeline to, I’d say Babs getting her legs back, and subsequently becoming Batgirl again, erasing Cass and Steph from existence for like 5 years. That would definitely piss some people off though, so like I said it would have to be erased from our universe too. Not an actual retcon, just a thing that never happened. If it isn’t being erased like that, and we’re just doing a normal retcon, I don’t know if I’d go with anything. I’d more quickly advocate for trying to work with something over just plugging our ears and saying it never happened. I suppose it would be Gotham War related, like everyone is saying. None of those characters should go along with Selina’s ridiculous plan, and it just seems forced to drive a wedge between Bruce and the rest of the family.
Damian Bat-cat wedding road trip Bruce becoming Oliver by losing his money every run
Except for the part about my favourite Robin Hard agree. I still cringe at Bruce struggling for money.
Alfred dying
The Whole Jim Gordon becoming Batman and then creating Batbot!! That along with Superman with Jeans, Superman Tee and buzz cut was the worst of New 52.
Bruce and Barbara being a thing
I would erase Bruce and Barbara dating in the DCAU. Not sure about the comics (I don’t know enough about them)
Nightwing dying by a baton to the back of the head
Bruce treating his kids like child soldiers is so OOC it isn't even funny.
All the times Bruce hit his sidekicks. Idk why they keep having him do this shit, he’s supposed to be a master at self control.
Remove the Batman and batgirl romance like bro she’s a minor 😎🗿
He slept with Barbara
Honestly Joker actions being just to draw Zur out. Worst retcon ever
Kevin Smith
Alfred's death or at least give him a proper death
^ This. They really shouldn't have killed off Alfred, but if they're going to, they should have given him a more meaningful and narratively earned death.
Damian
Gotham War
I'll count 'downsizing the Bat Family' as 'one thing', and by downsizing the Bat Family, I mean I'd erase Clown Hunter, Ghost Maker, and Luke Fox at the very least, and I'd reverse the decision to have Harley Quinn join the Bat Family.
Batman and Batgirl.
Bruce and Babs in literally anything it’s cannon to
Can I do Superboy Prime bringing Jason Todd back to life? It just kinda confused me. Under the red hood made more sense with them throwing him into the Las Vegas pit
That he and Superman ever fought. Hate that shit.
The goofy recovery Bruce had for his spine, post Knightfall. It's been a minute, but I vaguely remember someone getting a healing superpower. Correct me of I'm wrong, but it seemed awfully convenient back then.
Bruce and Babs lol I'd probably use red hood far more sparingly and not as prominent
Oh boy, do I choose the rooftop rape? Cassandra Cain being completely changed because an editor was infuriated that she could match Batman and wasn't neurotypical? Batman and Batgirl hooking up? Babs being paralyzed and magically nobody could fix HER spine? Choices choices...
Talia raping Bruce. The way writers have handled her character post 9/11 is just insanely racist. Honestly just the way they’ve handled Jason’s characterization pre Red Hood? I feel like a lot of comics nowadays shifted the fact that Jason died because he wanted to help someone and wanted to believe the best in his mom to Jason died because he was angry and reckless. The way Barbara has literally gotten with every brother besides Damian. Like she deserves to be her own character without being paired up with Dick, or Jason or Tim. Also just get rid of any mention of her and Bruce being together. And finally, Gotham War.
I dont know if its canon to the comics but any hint of him having sex with bat girl needs to be erased