I feel like you can't even really count the number of people Batman killed in Batman 89. Didn't he just straight up unload the batplane's machine guns on joker's crowd of thugs?
Fair point. I just googled it earlier because I was curious. I'm also on team Batman should kill.... sometimes. Unpopular opinion here but Gotham would be much safer that way since Arkham asylum is easier to break out of than a wet paper bag.
It's the eternal argument of he doesn't kill them for their sake, he does it for his own sake. Because if he crosses the line he won't stop.
My argument would be, why doesn't Gorden hear this and go "Oh no...anyway" and shoot the Joker in the head.
Yh but the difference is that if Batman goes bad everyone's fucked, if Gordon breaks the rules you've got a more corrupt police force. Which is bad, but not quite Joker bad.
That's always seemed like a bad argument to me anyway. Batman is probably the most disciplined character *ever*. You're telling me you don't think *Batman* can exercise self-control in apprehending bad guys? You don't think Batman can develop strict rules about when he will or won't kill and stick to them?
Of course he can. If Batman wanted to adopt a "only kill in self-defense" policy, he could do that and follow it religiously. He's not gonna kill one guy then fucking lose his mind and go on a kill-spree rampage.
In all fairness, as disciplined as Batman is, he *is* a dude who dresses up like a bat and fights crime to deal with a dark emotional trauma.
The dude has mentioned on numerous occasions that he *knows* he's batshit (heh, I just noticed that) insane. I think it's more of a fear that he's already so close to the edge.
WOULD he, for sure, go crazy and start killing people left and right? Probably not.
Hell, I'm not even arguing that he *shouldn't* kill some of these idiots. I was always on Jason Todd's side in Red Hood.
The only time I've ever agreed with a character doing that is Matt Murdoch and only because he's such a devout Christian. I lost my faith years ago, but I can totally understand that mentality.
But he's fighting crime bosses and magic ninjas, when Joker gets loose for the 400th time and kills his 5,000th baby just because he thinks they make funny sounds when he does, then yeah, he definitely has some personal responsibility in that case.
Which is why even though Batman not killing just because he's afraid he'll go crazy and murder everyone still kinda works as an excuse, even if I disagree with it.
So the whole Batman doesn't kill thing is actually relatively new. But I think Batmans biggest fear isn't so much that murdering one person will send him into a frenzy but that it'll make him want to cross it with other recurring villains. Indont see him just waltzing through a criminal hideout murdering every last person in there. But more so that once he makes his way to the Riddler, or Two-Face or whoever, it's easier to just dispose of them than letting them come back and try again. Hes afraid if he kills one, then he won't have a rogues gallery anymore. And that just doesn't make for a good comic book.
>Because if he crosses the line he won't stop.
And yet I find it much more compelling when he *does* cross the line and yet *still* finds a way to come back to being who he should be. Like in Gotham and the Snyderverse.
Yeah, like when [Batman used the Batmobile to blow up Axis Chemicals,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah3UxYHp1u0&ab_channel=BatmanMovieScenes) nobody was injured, not even the goons who were standing right next to the bomb when it went off.
bro watching this movie for the first time like a week ago, that was LITERALLY the best line out of the whole film holy fuck the one liners incthis movie are gold, so fucking many of them
Lol I love finding reused sound effects, like how in [this Seinfeld clip](https://youtu.be/V6Ddrv4qMtQ) the same scream sound is used by green goblin
Unrelated Ik but that kinda thing is cool
That’s one of the things I never understood people hated Affleck for killing but even my favorite Batman was killing people in both movies 89 and returns
Well I think I can clear it up for you.
Back then when a studio made a comic book movie the attitude was very much "thanks for the character nerds, we'll take it from here" and they weren't too concerned about the source material.
These days people expect the studios to respect the source material more and be true to the books.
And I don't hate Affleck or anyone else involved in making a movie even if I don't like the movie.
I will say I'm not a fan of Snyder's DC movies but I like his zombie flicks.
As someone who has watched Resident evil movies and considers them bad, I have to say Army of the dead was worse than them, and a huge letdown compared to dawn of the dead
I don’t remember any killing in the dark knight but in Batman Begins he blows up the temple full of ninjas and leaves them and their prisoners inside while only saving Ras.
And then in Rises he shoots the front of one of Bane/Talias trucks with the gun on the flying Bat vehicle and the shot kills the driver, this causes the truck to crash which ends up killing Talia who was also in the truck.
Oh and not to mention the “I won’t kill you but I don’t have to save you” thing.
There’s a difference between him killing those ninjas and not being able or interested in saving all of them. Given their skill sets, they had ample time to escape.
No debate on TDKR but given the impending nuclear explosion, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for him to justify taking reckless action to get to Talia. It’s not like he slit the throat of the driver.
You could also say that if he killed them, then why were they around for end of the movie where they were executing their plan with fear toxin in the water supply.
If Batman can stop people from dying, he will. He must at all times exert himself 100% to stop people from dying. If he doesn't, he willingly let them die and is therefore indirectly their cause of death.
His code isn't "don't directly kill people", it's "no one must die under my watch." It is just summarized as "no-kill rule," which is a great quick explainer, but it doesn't cover the whole concept.
He exploded the whole monastery. Plenty of the ninjas died within 60 seconds of him lighting the fire, not to mention the initial guy he refused to execute definitely died too.
>It’s not like he slit the throat of the driver
No, he only straight up sniped him from the batplane lmao.
Not to mention he directly killed Harvey, on purpose.
You can’t wish away his killings by saying “he had to do it”. That’s the whole point of Batman’s no killing rule. It’s easier to kill his enemies, so he doesn’t do it.
Batman directly caused the fire that killed the ninjas.
If you set an orphanage on fire, you are the one who murdered those orphans, not the fire. It's not the orphans' job to not burn to death in the fire you started. It's your job not to set the orphanage on fire.
> Oh and not to mention the “I won’t kill you but I don’t have to save you” thing.
The part that the movie fails to mention is that the death Batman would be "saving" him from is one that Batman directly caused by getting Gordon to blow the track and then smashing the brakes so Ra's couldn't stop.
It's sort of like dangling someone over a pit of vipers on a buttery, fraying rope, and then saying "I won't kill you, I just don't have to save you" and then walking away.
Also, Batman arguably kills 2 more dudes in TDK. Two guys in a truck in the tunnel when the Tumbler jams their cab into the roof, crushing it very violently.
1. Blew up the monastery, killing many of the ninjas and the guy he refused to execute in the first place
2. Orchestrated the events that killed Ra’s
3. Yeeted Harvey off a roof
4. Gave Catwoman the tool to kill Bane
5. Sniped Talia’s truck driver, purposely causing the crash that killed her
Bane and Ra’s are the only debatable ones, but he definitely purposely took actions that directly led to their deaths
Hey if u keep the same energy and hate Keaton for it also, I respect that. I'm personally not a fan of the burton movies (batman forever my batman as a kid. Had it on vhs, watched it incessantly). But to hate on batfleck for being a murderer and turn around and say Keaton is the best bat...is pretty wack
The difference is back in the day superhero movies we’re so rare we were just happy to have them. Today they’re a dime a dozen and there’s concrete proof that they can be both successful and comic accurate. There’s no excuse to take such a key part of a character and toss it out the window when making a movie today
Because affleck is an inconsistent killer, he's always killing these random goons, yet the joker and harley, the very people who pushed him to break his no killing rule, are still alive, living the nightlife as if nothing happened. Batman had a chance to kill the joker because he broke all of his teeth, yet he's still alive, even if the joker managed to scape, he owned a strip club and hanged in there like nothing, Batman should be able to track him down and kill him. Same with harley, he captured her and sent her to prison instead of killing her.
I hate when Batman kills, but if you're gonna do it, at least make it consistent.
It's worse than that, people make fun of the Martha moment. But it could've worked, it could've worked as a way of reminding him that this is a man, with a mother that he is about to murder.
But he casually mows down I don't even remember how many thugs without a thought. So what could've been super clever just turns into a stupid, inconsistent, and edgy mess.
This is exactly what I've been saying like forever. The problem is not the Martha moment on itself, the problem is that batman is a fucking mass murdered. That moment would have been remembered forever as one of the best moments of the batman, if him trying to kill superman had it been the first time he was about to break his no killing rule. The name of his mother would have reminded him why he doesn't kill the criminals, because that's just going to make him another Joe chill. But that moment is destroyed by the fact that he has been killing for what? A decade now? He has killed people for way less, it only makes sense for that batman to actually kill superman, he is a greater danger than 1000 of all the thugs he has killed throughout his career.
It also would've been strengthened by the Joker being around and hinting at the past and SERIOUS guilt that Bruce feels about letting him live. Imagine it turning in Bruce's mind that this'll be like the Joker but on a planetary level.
It also doesn't help that Clark and the great Detective are just so stupid and easily manipulated by Junior.
To be entirely fair, Ben’s is egregious, regardless of it fitting within the story. There’s a big difference between a couple scenes like this, and Batfleck literally fucking mowing down hordes of enemies with heavy ass armament
There is no difference to me, and wouldn't be to batman, of what u said, and blowing somebody up woth dynamite. Batman doesn't make that distinction. A life is a life.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=psVIG7YvdjM&t=59s
Here's a video of keatons body count. Both Affleck and keaton are egregious for a batman movie to me.
It’s the degree of it tbh.
Ok, some of those counted aren’t even kills, especially shit like Batman avoiding a rocket launcher TWO FACE was shooting at him.
But I think generally as someone else pointed out, the real big think here is the state of Batman in cinema. Source material holds massively more weight than it did before
There is no degree when it comes to killing with batman. 1 is the same as a hundred to him.
And yeah I don't even think it's that the source material is important (didn't feige at marvel say they no longer need comics to pull from?), they just can't get away with nonsense like they used to. In the past, people were just so happy to see batman on big screen, didn't matter if they had him blowing people up lol. But times have changed. I'm thrilled for the Pattinson movie. Everything I've seen...I'm pumped. Most excited ive been for a new movie since probably endgame.
It’s not about Batman in general, I’m saying his character as of the public perception in live action. His source material and that killing rule didn’t matter as much as it does now.
Because they’ve already built a universe off of it, so they can expand forth and tell more of their own stories. Yeah, this new movie is looking good
Hot take, but the difference to me is Burton's Batman is just a vigilante who kills. He was never a no-kill guy, it was always in the cards.
Snyder's Batman is presumably a Batman who had a no-kill rule and lost his way. I'm not saying that can't make an interesting story, it's just not the Batman I want to see in the Justice League.
If Batman breaks his no-kill rule (because he *had one in the first place*), then that pretty quickly puts him in dictator mode and he needs to be an antagonist, not just say "Oh well I'm happy now so let's go be super friends". *Because* his no-kill rule is so sacred, breaking it would mean a total breakdown of morality. (at least, as far as Batmen I want to see goes)
A Batman with a no-kill rule who breaks it but is still a hero isn't any kind of Batman I care for-- it means he had a no-kill rule, but it wasn't all that important... which causes a *lot* of problems for Batman in general.
A Batman who never had a no-kill rule? It can work.
It's how people decry batfleck for killing, but don't keep that same energy when talking about Keaton. It was 89 not the golden age, batman had his no kill rule. Which I don't necessarily hold against this movie, movies are different than comics I do think the people who bitch about batfleck killing but conveniently forget or ignore kestons body count, are obnoxious as shit.
I guess that is true, most people whom I talk to about when it comes to Batfleck movies also say they don't approve of that aspect of Keaton's Batman despite still respecting the film's impact and influence.
Actually Burton played a part in modernizing the character, he was inspired by Frank Millers Dark Knight Returns and the two different sets of works completely change the tone of the comics pretty much from then on.
Don’t know about others but imo Tim burtons Batman gets a pass because it’s a genuinely pretty good movie and it was one of the pioneers when it came to superhero movies. Back then adaptations and respecting the source material wasn’t really something that was prioritized
That’s my point. You didn’t really have superhero movies back then so it makes sense that the few adaptations we had were not really interested in being faithful to the character. So I give it a pass because of that, it was just exciting to see Batman on the big screen even if as an adaptation it’s arguably worse than any other live action Batman
At least Keaton has a good movie to surround this one stupid scene. Batfleck’s killing and the movie sucking and Snyder being super delusional about superheroes in general all add up to reasonable hate
I honestly dislike both. Both of then got the character wrong. I just dislike them for different reasons. Snyder it's a frat boys who's only read dark knight returns image of batman. Burton it's camp dressed up as dark, with not great plots. Which I believe burton said he wasn't a comic person, but read killing joke. Its basically just tim burton movies that happen to have batman in them lol.
And Jesus. That suit looks great in still photos. But any time he has to move or god forbid fight, its like he's fighting falling over more than fighting the opponent.
If it happens off-screen is it really killing?
Anyway I am convinced the only reason a real Batman vigilante doesn't exist is because of America's gun fetish culture.
And this is why i always hated Burton's portrayal of Batman. He killed people with a smile. Batman does not kill, him doing so is a blatant misunderstanding of the character. Somehow, Batman is the worst part of Burton's Batman movies. The films are fantastic, the villains are amazing, the score is beautiful, and Gotham's aesthetic is superb, but goddamn I cannot forgive Batman blowing someone up with a grin plastered on his face.
People will trash Affleck’s Batman for killing folks with collateral damage and apathy, but will then turn around and bend over backwards trying to explain how Keaton’s Batman *might not* have actually killed this guy since you “didn’t actually see him die”
Oh he dead. He definitely dead. It’s kind of ironic because the explosion at the end of this scene reminds me of when the grenade goes off and kills the henchman in the highly controversial Battfleck warehouse scene. 😂
He literally straps dynamite with a cartoon clock ticking on it on the guy after the dude makes a joke, if that isn’t silly to you, idk what is.
I don’t particularly like the scene either but I’m not stupid enough to compare a joke scene in a more light hearted tone movie to edgy super dark BvS.
I never said it wasn’t a joke. The point is, he still committed murder. You can’t be part of the “Batman doesn’t kill” crowd and just overlook Keaton because “lol”
Also, “light hearted tone” 😆. It was so light hearted they barely made toys for it because they’d freak kids out and the did a soft reboot afterwards to take the taste out of peoples mouths. Also the main antagonist desperately wants to drown thousands of toddlers
I hate this clip honestly, and it's a good example of why the Tim Burton Batman movies aren't good Batman films, and the only reason people like it is because it's a good normal movie.
*Sigh* The only things I want from a live action Batman are no killing and white eyes. Apparently that’s too much to ask for
Edit: Don’t get me wrong tho I love Keaton
People who cling on to "batman does not kill" don't understand multi-interpretations of a fictional character that has been around for *nearly 100 years*.
i like how when synder's batman kills. everybody is up in arms that batman shouldn't kill.
but when west, keaton, kilmer, and bale kill, everybody gives them a pass.
Which movies is this? I only have vague memories of the Batman and Robin movie as it came out when I was a kid. I definitely remember having the collectible glasses from Burger King. I should probably watch these movies now that I'm old
This scene was always so funny to me haha
Lmaooo same! That shit eating grin!
Me too. Then years later I thought "wait... Did he just kill a guy?" And then I watched the first one... Batman's body count is huge
Yeah, it is quite big but I like the movies
Don’t worry, he’s still alive. Batman doesn’t kill.
he's not dead he's just REALLY unconcious.
No, but his bills are expensive.
Gonna wish he was dead
well, Gotham is in the USA, after all...
Shhh! He's sleeping.
Yes unconscious over there, there and a little on the ceiling.
Yeah they take naps cuz they’re so tired of fighting batman
Shh, poor little guy is all tuckered out.
This isn’t your average everyday unconscious. This is… *advanced unconscious.*
I've over fed these men??
He's all tuckered out from the fighting. People often need naps after fighting Batman
He’s all tuckered out
Because I'm good
Dr. Fishy! Noooooo!
I overfed these men?!
Keaton killed 17 people in Batman and 3 in Returns.
I feel like you can't even really count the number of people Batman killed in Batman 89. Didn't he just straight up unload the batplane's machine guns on joker's crowd of thugs?
Plus blowing up the chemical plant, no way of knowing how many thugs got blown up.
Fair point. I just googled it earlier because I was curious. I'm also on team Batman should kill.... sometimes. Unpopular opinion here but Gotham would be much safer that way since Arkham asylum is easier to break out of than a wet paper bag.
It's the eternal argument of he doesn't kill them for their sake, he does it for his own sake. Because if he crosses the line he won't stop. My argument would be, why doesn't Gorden hear this and go "Oh no...anyway" and shoot the Joker in the head.
Gordon is the one insisting on doing things "by the book", as seen in The Killing Joke.
Yh but the difference is that if Batman goes bad everyone's fucked, if Gordon breaks the rules you've got a more corrupt police force. Which is bad, but not quite Joker bad.
That's always seemed like a bad argument to me anyway. Batman is probably the most disciplined character *ever*. You're telling me you don't think *Batman* can exercise self-control in apprehending bad guys? You don't think Batman can develop strict rules about when he will or won't kill and stick to them? Of course he can. If Batman wanted to adopt a "only kill in self-defense" policy, he could do that and follow it religiously. He's not gonna kill one guy then fucking lose his mind and go on a kill-spree rampage.
In all fairness, as disciplined as Batman is, he *is* a dude who dresses up like a bat and fights crime to deal with a dark emotional trauma. The dude has mentioned on numerous occasions that he *knows* he's batshit (heh, I just noticed that) insane. I think it's more of a fear that he's already so close to the edge. WOULD he, for sure, go crazy and start killing people left and right? Probably not. Hell, I'm not even arguing that he *shouldn't* kill some of these idiots. I was always on Jason Todd's side in Red Hood. The only time I've ever agreed with a character doing that is Matt Murdoch and only because he's such a devout Christian. I lost my faith years ago, but I can totally understand that mentality. But he's fighting crime bosses and magic ninjas, when Joker gets loose for the 400th time and kills his 5,000th baby just because he thinks they make funny sounds when he does, then yeah, he definitely has some personal responsibility in that case. Which is why even though Batman not killing just because he's afraid he'll go crazy and murder everyone still kinda works as an excuse, even if I disagree with it.
So the whole Batman doesn't kill thing is actually relatively new. But I think Batmans biggest fear isn't so much that murdering one person will send him into a frenzy but that it'll make him want to cross it with other recurring villains. Indont see him just waltzing through a criminal hideout murdering every last person in there. But more so that once he makes his way to the Riddler, or Two-Face or whoever, it's easier to just dispose of them than letting them come back and try again. Hes afraid if he kills one, then he won't have a rogues gallery anymore. And that just doesn't make for a good comic book.
>Because if he crosses the line he won't stop. And yet I find it much more compelling when he *does* cross the line and yet *still* finds a way to come back to being who he should be. Like in Gotham and the Snyderverse.
Batman kept killing in the Snyder verse wtf are you ok about lol. There was no moral dilemma in his movies
He stopped after BVS, mate.
They killed themselves. Batman just assisted them because Batman doesn't kill.
And that's even before the filming started!
Yeah, like when [Batman used the Batmobile to blow up Axis Chemicals,](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah3UxYHp1u0&ab_channel=BatmanMovieScenes) nobody was injured, not even the goons who were standing right next to the bomb when it went off.
Yeah, those body parts grow back. Everyone has Deadpool levels of regeneration in this universe
No flying shoes, he's fine.
Batman doesn't kill, God does.
I mean we can just reattach all his organs and re-animate him, Frankenstein-style. Right?
Time to take him to Wayne hospital
He's only **mostly** dead....
Growls "my one rule..."
When he throws catwoman down and goes: "eat floor"
"High fibre"
bro watching this movie for the first time like a week ago, that was LITERALLY the best line out of the whole film holy fuck the one liners incthis movie are gold, so fucking many of them
"Some days Robin, you just can't get rid of a bomb.."
Weird observation, but I swear that first punch sound effect is used in the Batman returns SNES game.
Probably. Makes sense
Lol I love finding reused sound effects, like how in [this Seinfeld clip](https://youtu.be/V6Ddrv4qMtQ) the same scream sound is used by green goblin Unrelated Ik but that kinda thing is cool
Comics Batman: "If you kill someone the amount of killers in the world stays the same" Burton Batman: "COWABUNGA IT IS"
I guess it should be if you kill a killer. Otherwise the amount of killers would increase by 1
Keaton didn’t kill him, but he didn’t have to save him…
Not the point of the post, but can we talk about how timeless the Elfman score is?
Best music of any batfilm
Back when they used the wilhelm scream so blatantly and in your face. Now it’s usually pretty buried in the mix.
I'm personally bored of it, it takes me right out the film
And people cry about Ben Affleck killing people
That’s one of the things I never understood people hated Affleck for killing but even my favorite Batman was killing people in both movies 89 and returns
Well I think I can clear it up for you. Back then when a studio made a comic book movie the attitude was very much "thanks for the character nerds, we'll take it from here" and they weren't too concerned about the source material. These days people expect the studios to respect the source material more and be true to the books. And I don't hate Affleck or anyone else involved in making a movie even if I don't like the movie. I will say I'm not a fan of Snyder's DC movies but I like his zombie flicks.
His Army of the dead sucked tho. This is coming from someone who generally doesn't hate movies.
[удалено]
That was epic. But AOTD was a huge let down for me
In my opinion Dawn of the Dead is the only good movie Snyder has ever made. His trailers are pretty good though
It’s really only good because James Gunn wrote it.
As someone who has watched Resident evil movies and considers them bad, I have to say Army of the dead was worse than them, and a huge letdown compared to dawn of the dead
This
Bale is right there with them, and he even had the audacity to act like he had a no killing rule. Love TDK, but that was always kinda silly to me
i haven’t seen them in a while, what did he do that could’ve killed people?
I don’t remember any killing in the dark knight but in Batman Begins he blows up the temple full of ninjas and leaves them and their prisoners inside while only saving Ras. And then in Rises he shoots the front of one of Bane/Talias trucks with the gun on the flying Bat vehicle and the shot kills the driver, this causes the truck to crash which ends up killing Talia who was also in the truck. Oh and not to mention the “I won’t kill you but I don’t have to save you” thing.
There’s a difference between him killing those ninjas and not being able or interested in saving all of them. Given their skill sets, they had ample time to escape. No debate on TDKR but given the impending nuclear explosion, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for him to justify taking reckless action to get to Talia. It’s not like he slit the throat of the driver.
You could also say that if he killed them, then why were they around for end of the movie where they were executing their plan with fear toxin in the water supply.
He doesn't kill all of them, but he kills a non-zero number of them, including the fake Ra's.
The mental gymnastics here could qualify for the fucking Olympics.
If Batman can stop people from dying, he will. He must at all times exert himself 100% to stop people from dying. If he doesn't, he willingly let them die and is therefore indirectly their cause of death. His code isn't "don't directly kill people", it's "no one must die under my watch." It is just summarized as "no-kill rule," which is a great quick explainer, but it doesn't cover the whole concept.
He exploded the whole monastery. Plenty of the ninjas died within 60 seconds of him lighting the fire, not to mention the initial guy he refused to execute definitely died too. >It’s not like he slit the throat of the driver No, he only straight up sniped him from the batplane lmao. Not to mention he directly killed Harvey, on purpose. You can’t wish away his killings by saying “he had to do it”. That’s the whole point of Batman’s no killing rule. It’s easier to kill his enemies, so he doesn’t do it.
Batman directly caused the fire that killed the ninjas. If you set an orphanage on fire, you are the one who murdered those orphans, not the fire. It's not the orphans' job to not burn to death in the fire you started. It's your job not to set the orphanage on fire.
He straight up yeeted Harvey off a roof in TDK.
> Oh and not to mention the “I won’t kill you but I don’t have to save you” thing. The part that the movie fails to mention is that the death Batman would be "saving" him from is one that Batman directly caused by getting Gordon to blow the track and then smashing the brakes so Ra's couldn't stop. It's sort of like dangling someone over a pit of vipers on a buttery, fraying rope, and then saying "I won't kill you, I just don't have to save you" and then walking away. Also, Batman arguably kills 2 more dudes in TDK. Two guys in a truck in the tunnel when the Tumbler jams their cab into the roof, crushing it very violently.
In TDK he drives the batmobile underneath a semi, crushing the driver.
In the dark Knight Christian Bell could have saved Raza goal from death but he basically walks away and lets it happen
Holy shit autocorrect fucked you proper
Raza Goal 😭😭😭😂
Ah famous Italian soccer superstar, Raza Goal
1. Blew up the monastery, killing many of the ninjas and the guy he refused to execute in the first place 2. Orchestrated the events that killed Ra’s 3. Yeeted Harvey off a roof 4. Gave Catwoman the tool to kill Bane 5. Sniped Talia’s truck driver, purposely causing the crash that killed her Bane and Ra’s are the only debatable ones, but he definitely purposely took actions that directly led to their deaths
Like the Pete Holmes sketches! The I don't kill one is fantastic!
Exactly lol
Hey if u keep the same energy and hate Keaton for it also, I respect that. I'm personally not a fan of the burton movies (batman forever my batman as a kid. Had it on vhs, watched it incessantly). But to hate on batfleck for being a murderer and turn around and say Keaton is the best bat...is pretty wack
Batman not killing is more woven into the character narrative today even moreso than it was in the 80s.
The difference is back in the day superhero movies we’re so rare we were just happy to have them. Today they’re a dime a dozen and there’s concrete proof that they can be both successful and comic accurate. There’s no excuse to take such a key part of a character and toss it out the window when making a movie today
Like he definitely killed that guy
But only batfleck kills!
Because affleck is an inconsistent killer, he's always killing these random goons, yet the joker and harley, the very people who pushed him to break his no killing rule, are still alive, living the nightlife as if nothing happened. Batman had a chance to kill the joker because he broke all of his teeth, yet he's still alive, even if the joker managed to scape, he owned a strip club and hanged in there like nothing, Batman should be able to track him down and kill him. Same with harley, he captured her and sent her to prison instead of killing her. I hate when Batman kills, but if you're gonna do it, at least make it consistent.
It's worse than that, people make fun of the Martha moment. But it could've worked, it could've worked as a way of reminding him that this is a man, with a mother that he is about to murder. But he casually mows down I don't even remember how many thugs without a thought. So what could've been super clever just turns into a stupid, inconsistent, and edgy mess.
I will never understand how did "save martha" even left the writing room, who thought it was good idea. Clark could've just said save my mother/mom
This is exactly what I've been saying like forever. The problem is not the Martha moment on itself, the problem is that batman is a fucking mass murdered. That moment would have been remembered forever as one of the best moments of the batman, if him trying to kill superman had it been the first time he was about to break his no killing rule. The name of his mother would have reminded him why he doesn't kill the criminals, because that's just going to make him another Joe chill. But that moment is destroyed by the fact that he has been killing for what? A decade now? He has killed people for way less, it only makes sense for that batman to actually kill superman, he is a greater danger than 1000 of all the thugs he has killed throughout his career.
It also would've been strengthened by the Joker being around and hinting at the past and SERIOUS guilt that Bruce feels about letting him live. Imagine it turning in Bruce's mind that this'll be like the Joker but on a planetary level. It also doesn't help that Clark and the great Detective are just so stupid and easily manipulated by Junior.
To be entirely fair, Ben’s is egregious, regardless of it fitting within the story. There’s a big difference between a couple scenes like this, and Batfleck literally fucking mowing down hordes of enemies with heavy ass armament
There is no difference to me, and wouldn't be to batman, of what u said, and blowing somebody up woth dynamite. Batman doesn't make that distinction. A life is a life. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=psVIG7YvdjM&t=59s Here's a video of keatons body count. Both Affleck and keaton are egregious for a batman movie to me.
It’s the degree of it tbh. Ok, some of those counted aren’t even kills, especially shit like Batman avoiding a rocket launcher TWO FACE was shooting at him. But I think generally as someone else pointed out, the real big think here is the state of Batman in cinema. Source material holds massively more weight than it did before
There is no degree when it comes to killing with batman. 1 is the same as a hundred to him. And yeah I don't even think it's that the source material is important (didn't feige at marvel say they no longer need comics to pull from?), they just can't get away with nonsense like they used to. In the past, people were just so happy to see batman on big screen, didn't matter if they had him blowing people up lol. But times have changed. I'm thrilled for the Pattinson movie. Everything I've seen...I'm pumped. Most excited ive been for a new movie since probably endgame.
It’s not about Batman in general, I’m saying his character as of the public perception in live action. His source material and that killing rule didn’t matter as much as it does now. Because they’ve already built a universe off of it, so they can expand forth and tell more of their own stories. Yeah, this new movie is looking good
I hate Batman killing in both movies but at least Batman 89 was a good movie.
Hot take, but the difference to me is Burton's Batman is just a vigilante who kills. He was never a no-kill guy, it was always in the cards. Snyder's Batman is presumably a Batman who had a no-kill rule and lost his way. I'm not saying that can't make an interesting story, it's just not the Batman I want to see in the Justice League. If Batman breaks his no-kill rule (because he *had one in the first place*), then that pretty quickly puts him in dictator mode and he needs to be an antagonist, not just say "Oh well I'm happy now so let's go be super friends". *Because* his no-kill rule is so sacred, breaking it would mean a total breakdown of morality. (at least, as far as Batmen I want to see goes) A Batman with a no-kill rule who breaks it but is still a hero isn't any kind of Batman I care for-- it means he had a no-kill rule, but it wasn't all that important... which causes a *lot* of problems for Batman in general. A Batman who never had a no-kill rule? It can work.
What does this have to do with Batfleck lmao, it's not really a fair comparison especially in the context of when the films were released.
It's how people decry batfleck for killing, but don't keep that same energy when talking about Keaton. It was 89 not the golden age, batman had his no kill rule. Which I don't necessarily hold against this movie, movies are different than comics I do think the people who bitch about batfleck killing but conveniently forget or ignore kestons body count, are obnoxious as shit.
I guess that is true, most people whom I talk to about when it comes to Batfleck movies also say they don't approve of that aspect of Keaton's Batman despite still respecting the film's impact and influence.
20 in both movies, Batflek just had 10.
It's not even about the count. For batman 1 is the same as a hundred. Both iterations show directors that don't understand the character
Actually Burton played a part in modernizing the character, he was inspired by Frank Millers Dark Knight Returns and the two different sets of works completely change the tone of the comics pretty much from then on.
Maybe so. But watchmen and dkr are missing museum dance scenes and robot penguins, so I think they have more to do with it.
Batfleck likely had around 20 bodies, as did Bale
Don’t know about others but imo Tim burtons Batman gets a pass because it’s a genuinely pretty good movie and it was one of the pioneers when it came to superhero movies. Back then adaptations and respecting the source material wasn’t really something that was prioritized
Back then? The only other mainstream Super hero movie was Superman.
That’s my point. You didn’t really have superhero movies back then so it makes sense that the few adaptations we had were not really interested in being faithful to the character. So I give it a pass because of that, it was just exciting to see Batman on the big screen even if as an adaptation it’s arguably worse than any other live action Batman
At least Keaton has a good movie to surround this one stupid scene. Batfleck’s killing and the movie sucking and Snyder being super delusional about superheroes in general all add up to reasonable hate
I honestly dislike both. Both of then got the character wrong. I just dislike them for different reasons. Snyder it's a frat boys who's only read dark knight returns image of batman. Burton it's camp dressed up as dark, with not great plots. Which I believe burton said he wasn't a comic person, but read killing joke. Its basically just tim burton movies that happen to have batman in them lol. And Jesus. That suit looks great in still photos. But any time he has to move or god forbid fight, its like he's fighting falling over more than fighting the opponent.
Burton’s Batman didn’t get the character wrong Batman killed in the early days in comics.
But that's not what Batman is now, or even then. That idea was phased out rather quickly.
Yeah. Pretty fair points. I don’t love Keaton but I don’t despise him like I do Batfleck, which really was mostly Snyder’s fault.
Both this and Ben Affleck's Batman are bad adaptations of the character. You can dislike both.
30 years later this is still my favourite part of the movie.
I've seen this many times, but it was only just now that I realized that the bomb had both a timer and a fuse.
Movie ruined.
batman killing people hurts me
If it happens off-screen is it really killing? Anyway I am convinced the only reason a real Batman vigilante doesn't exist is because of America's gun fetish culture.
There have been real Batman-type vigilantes. They pretty quickly end up in the hospital. Or sometimes prison.
He fucking blows a guy up
Apparently some days you *can* just get rid of a bomb.
Batman doesn't kill, Keaton - transforms into bully Maguire - I missed the part where thats my problem
Guys don't be dumb Batman didn't kill that guy the bomb did!
And this is why i always hated Burton's portrayal of Batman. He killed people with a smile. Batman does not kill, him doing so is a blatant misunderstanding of the character. Somehow, Batman is the worst part of Burton's Batman movies. The films are fantastic, the villains are amazing, the score is beautiful, and Gotham's aesthetic is superb, but goddamn I cannot forgive Batman blowing someone up with a grin plastered on his face.
Aaaaaaaand he just totally killed that guy.
Feel worse for that poor Mook that he just casually tossed away. (Poor Wilhelm...)
“I won’t kill you… but I don’t have to save you from the pit I threw you down into with the bomb I strapped onto you”
it's BULL from OVER THE TOP! i just realized that!!!!
He’s sleeping
I guess it is not killing if it happen out off sight.
Gimme a break.. guy didn’t die! That was more like a Wile E. Coyote, dynamite, fall of the cliff “hurt”! It’s WB man!
Just think of all the bad guys he crippled…some for life
Same with Nolan's Batman when he was chased by the police. I highly doubt they were all unhurt after all of that.
Somedays you just can't get rid of a bomb.
Imagine hating Batfleck and then using Keaton’s Batman to support the no kill rule
bUt BaTmAn DoEsNT KiLl
And people are mad at Affleck's batman
“Batman doesn’t kill”
He WaS jUsT cRiPpLeD aNd HoSpItAlIzEd. He’S fInE!
That Wilhelm scream though lmaooo, shit was in every movie from the 70's-90's
People will trash Affleck’s Batman for killing folks with collateral damage and apathy, but will then turn around and bend over backwards trying to explain how Keaton’s Batman *might not* have actually killed this guy since you “didn’t actually see him die”
Oh he dead. He definitely dead. It’s kind of ironic because the explosion at the end of this scene reminds me of when the grenade goes off and kills the henchman in the highly controversial Battfleck warehouse scene. 😂
But this scene is suppose to be silly and goofy. It shouldn’t be taken seriously.
“But-but-“ He killed a man with a bomb. And smiled while doing it. So you’re cool with Batman murdering people as long as it’s funny. Gotcha.
He literally straps dynamite with a cartoon clock ticking on it on the guy after the dude makes a joke, if that isn’t silly to you, idk what is. I don’t particularly like the scene either but I’m not stupid enough to compare a joke scene in a more light hearted tone movie to edgy super dark BvS.
I never said it wasn’t a joke. The point is, he still committed murder. You can’t be part of the “Batman doesn’t kill” crowd and just overlook Keaton because “lol” Also, “light hearted tone” 😆. It was so light hearted they barely made toys for it because they’d freak kids out and the did a soft reboot afterwards to take the taste out of peoples mouths. Also the main antagonist desperately wants to drown thousands of toddlers
Still the best Batman in my opinion
“Affleck’s Batman is a killer so he’s bad!” this scene:
Well he isn’t murdering so that’s okay. Because technically these guys are not innocent so meh
Since when was murder technically defined by the character of the victim?
Way better than the shit movies nowadays..
But Zack Snyder waaaaahhhhh
I hate this clip honestly, and it's a good example of why the Tim Burton Batman movies aren't good Batman films, and the only reason people like it is because it's a good normal movie.
also nostalgia
People were just happy to see a serious Batman on the big screen, and the villain performances were out of the park.
i went into this movie hoping he would tone down the killing since the first movie. and this happens....
*Sigh* The only things I want from a live action Batman are no killing and white eyes. Apparently that’s too much to ask for Edit: Don’t get me wrong tho I love Keaton
That guys is deader than Bruce's parents homie turned into pulled pork
He’s just unconscious
effcient king
What's name this fime?
The Batman who laughs
Yup,mhm,that's murder
This is the best Batman movie.
He didn’t even kill him, he just made sure the bomb didn’t blow up on the street
Lol the grin, the goofy cartoon looking bomb, and the fact that batman is walking along the conveniently shoveled pathway
Holy nitroglycerin Batman you just fucking killed that guy
Dude just smiles knowing he's breaking his one rule like a savage 😏
People who cling on to "batman does not kill" don't understand multi-interpretations of a fictional character that has been around for *nearly 100 years*.
i like how when synder's batman kills. everybody is up in arms that batman shouldn't kill. but when west, keaton, kilmer, and bale kill, everybody gives them a pass. 
Um.... No kill rule?
Which movies is this? I only have vague memories of the Batman and Robin movie as it came out when I was a kid. I definitely remember having the collectible glasses from Burger King. I should probably watch these movies now that I'm old
Batman Returns
Lol was that Wilhelm scream?
Yup🤣
In Batman's defense, the guy DID stomp on his toes beforehand. 🙂
good thing comic book people can survive explosions, because, if this was on Earth-Prime, dude is a smear on that sewer.
u/savevideo u/RedditMP4Bot
## [**Download MP4**](https://redditmp4.xyz/sjzk1k) ___ Help keep the server running [**Donate**](https://ko-fi.com/redditmp4)
Nice kill
I forgot how Returns Batman is kinda a violent nut lol
Lmao
Michael Keaton is still the best Batman to me!