Bob Dylan is my favorite singer of all time, so the answer is easy. But I really enjoy Ringo’s singing as well. The songs that he sings on wouldn’t be as good with anyone else from the band singing.
Dylan wins 100% of the time, for me. I think he’s one of the best singers ever. I don’t usually judge a singers performance by how “in tune” it is, but rather how much they can communicate the emotion of the song. Ringo and Bob are both great at that, but Bob is one of the greatest to ever do it. Ringo is a fun novelty singer, and can deliver a soulful vocal when needed. That being said, even Ringo would tell you that Bob is the better singer.
Lastly, I will add that I am talking about Dylan’s voice pre-1980. If you asked me who has the better singing voice in 2023, I’d go Ringo all the way. Holy hell has Bob lost his voice, it almost makes me feel like crying when I hear him sing now. Oh well, that’s what aging does.
Aging affected Bob’s voice wayyyyyyy more than it did Ringo’s. If you hear Bob singing in the last 10 years it’s hard to imagine that it’s the same guy who made those songs in the 60’s. Ringo’s voice has matured and lost some power, but he still sounds relatively similar to how he always sounded.
I’d generally agree with you about Bob’s vocals now, but his vocals on that last album (Rough and Rowdy Ways) are pretty fantastic. Far better than the vocals on the previous album (Tempest).
Truth is, Bob Dylan could never sing. Did you ever hear that goof song he wrote, " Don't fall apart on me tonight," from the 1980's? Sounds like he's singing out of his nose, Hahahahahahaha!!! Looks like it too when one watches the video.
That poor guy, he just could never sing. What a goof. The guy steals half the music he puts his name on.
Wow! apples & oranges. 2 completely different voices. I'd have to say I prefer to hear Ringo sing. I have to be in the mood to listen to Dylan
Very thought provoking. Interesting question
Thanks for recognizing the subtlety of the question. Dylan is an amazing song craft, but I don’t personally like his voice. And they both receive criticism for their singing, so I thought it was an interesting comparison.
Is this even a question. Bob has one of the most expressive vocals ever and knows exactly how to use what he's got. Listen to Ballad of A Thin Man, Just Like A Woman, It's All Over Now Baby Blue. I'd say he's one of the best singers ever
wow, you and I have opinions that are 180 degrees out of phase, Dylan has a voice best suited for printed media - it's awful. The only song I can even listen to his singing on is "Subteranian Homesick Blues", he's alright on that on. Otherwise when he sings I wish I was deaf.
Ringo is not a great singer but I can at least stand him on most songs and he's great on a few.
look, it's nothing personal, I just really can't stand his voice.
If it makes you feel any better - my wife loves his singing and I love her but we differ on this. I recognize Dylan's talent, I just can't abide his voice. And for anyone to say they think he's the best singer just explodes my brain, I mean even if you like his voice you have to acknowledge that there are other, much more pleasing voices in popular music.
I mean I'd agree that technically speaking there's way better singers than Bob and that his rage isn't great. But no one sings quite like Bob. I like the Adele version of Make You Feel My Love and Jeff Buckley's version of Just Like A Woman but Bob just sings them so much better because he has so much emotion even though those two are clearly the more talented singers.
To each his own though
> But no one sings quite like Bob.
thank goodness! (just kidding).
I love Adele's "Make You Feel My Love" and I thank Bob for writing such a wonderful song, but her singing pleases me, his does not.
As you said: to each his own. I'm glad you get enjoyment from his voice.
Yeah I like a lot of Bob Dylan covers, but I think that he needed to go the route of Roger Waters on Dark Side of the Moon and let someone else handle the actual performance
Gilmour did most of the singing on most Pink Floyd albums after the first two (which had Sid Barrett as the singer). Roger sings here and there and more so on "The Wall" but his voice is.... not pleasant. Sometimes that's what you want though. Gilmour's is dreamy and very well suited to the PF sound.
right. they did a good job of using Roger's voice on the right songs - until "The Final Cut" anyway, which is the only Pink Floyd album I can't listen to. His lyrics were light years better than most of what Gilmour (or his wife) ever came up with.
Ringo and Bob are two sides of the same coin, they both don’t have amazing voices but they perfectly suit the style of music they sing, still I prefer Dylan’s voice, especially on Nashville Skyline
Ringo by far. I don't really like Dylan aside from a handful of songs. I admit his voice annoys me.
Ringo I love! Of course he isn't as good as the other beatles singing but he has my 2nd favorite solo career after Paul.
Which ones did you listen to?
He has the only 2 albums with collaborations with all 3 other beetles in some capacity. If you didn’t like any of those songs written/co-written/performed with the other beatles you probably aren’t going to like anything else
I have admittedly unpopular taste, but I love the first 2 tracks on Rotogravure. They’re high energy and kinda dancy, and not deep or lyrical, just fun, which is why I like them
Wings (make sure its the 70s version. He re-recorded it in 2012)
Pure Gold (written by Paul. Paul almost gave him Let Em In but chose this)
I'll Still Love You (written by George and ggeorge didn't like how he sang it so he sued him)
I Keep Forgettin
Drowning In The Sea of Love
Monkey See Monkey Do
One of the most important vocalists in rock history? Wait what?
He's up there with whom, Freddie Mercury, Robert Plant or Paul?
Don't let your admiration take you to the pitfall of lunacy...
I like Eric Clapton, and think his voice fits his songs, but he's not a great vocalist. Still he is thousands of times better than Dylan.
There's a lot more to being one of the most important singers than being a powerhouse or even hugely proficient.
Dylan's way of twisting & mangling his melodies was progressive for the time in folk & rock.
Moreover Clapton may be more palatable & less pitchy or nasally. But he's nowhere near as expressive or emotive a singer as Dylan & hasn't been influential as vocalist at all.
If you're able to look past what you don't like about Dylan's voice you may find there's plenty of merit to his singing.
Yeah I don’t get all the praise about his “expression” and “emotion”, he sounds like a lawnmower and literally doesn’t change the way he sings - he would get kicked out of a fucking church choir
I think they meant that he's so important because he inspired a lot of other artist who weren't technically great singers to make music such as Jimi Hendrix, Lou Reed, Leonard Cohen, Neil Young
I think the greatest testament to Dylan’s singing ability is that all the covers of his songs sound neutered and lifeless in comparison with the original.
I'm not saying his songs aren't good when sung by him, I'm saying he will not be remembered as a great vocalist, because he is not really one. You never get mesmerized when listening to him.
But on that note you're saying, IMO The Byrds immortalized Mr Tambourine Man. Just an example, and it's also my opinion and nothing more.
Dylan by a mile. Dylan has a very interesting/distinctive voice and singing style(s). I like Ringo, nothing against him, but he does not.
But I will say that Ringo's not particularly great (or even good) vocals don't really bother me one bit. My taste is generally anti-vocal theatrics and no one has more of a "plain jane" voice than Ringo. I think the averageness of Ringo's voice is actually charming in a way.
I'll take The Beatles version "With a Little Help From My Friends" over Joe Cocker's any day, a lot of people prefer the Cocker version and obviously Cocker is a better singer than Ringo by any normal metric but for me The Beatles original is much much better. But I guess that has more to do with the overall arrangement of the song than anything else.
Although I think it's cool that Cocker did such a different version and made it his own. Well I guess this has gone on quite a tangent.
Thats the first I’ve time I’ve heard/read that Ringo’s voice is not distinct. I can’t think of anyone that sounds like him. I see what you mean by plain Jane, in the way you described that cocker comparison, but I think it’s still quite unique.
I don't think that is quite true. Bob Dylan certainly in spired John's songwriting, mainly in the 1964/1965 era, but It would be quite a stretch to say he inspired John Lennon's vocals at all. John always had his nasal sound, and didn't change it because of Dylan (besides like, 2 songs in beatles for sale)
Well, that is just John's tone and sound. Having a nasal voice is not being inspired by Dylans singing. Altough, if my memory is not already failing me, he did say in a later interview (I think it was either for PlayBoy or Rolling Stone in the early 70s) that he just straight up copied dylan in a few songs at this time, which is not being inspired by Bob, it is more of a "lets copy our friend Bob"
Both have distinct voices that are not versatile. And you can't make them sing each other's song too. That would be comical. Let's just say their voices are a good fit for the kind of songs they sing.
Not versatile. He can sing folk and maybe a couple of rockers, but that's it, and he doesn't sound good doing it (although I must admit, sometimes his duck voice soothes my mood and I go for it)
Bob Dylan is a songwriting genius but I only really like his singing on Highway 61 Revisited. Ringo doesn't really have range but I love his singing voice either way
Ringo is so much fucking better, which is a depressing indictment of Bob Dylan as the worst singer to ever get a contract
Look I get that he’s a great songwriter, but he is literally the last person who should be allowed in a recording booth
Maybe Bob didn't even like his own voices, hence Nashville Skyline's "Kermit the Bob" voice, but I wouldn't want to hear Desolation Row from any other voice.
I think Bob sounds like boomhauer from KOTH lol In my opinion he was only good in the Wilburys. Ringo is a brilliant drummer and his voice doesn’t sound like someone talking too fast
I love Bob Dylan's voice and singing style(s). The fact that it's changed radically over the years makes it even more captivating.
Just during his '60s heyday, it changed a number of times, from the prophetic folk-isms of Freewheelin', trough the nasal, wild mercury sounds of Blonde on Blonde, to the warm country croon of "Lay Lady Lay". And it kept on changing, albeit by the 1980s, it kinda settled into that familiar groove that's been parodied many times.
Still, the way he phrases the words in songs like "Not Dark Yet", he uses his limited technical range in a brilliant way. Gives me chills every time I hear it.
Bob Dylan can’t sing well but you feel every single syllable. He’s preternaturally talented at vocals. Not even John Lennon himself did it as well as Dylan.
I don’t see how this is a fair comparison. Ringo is an alright singer (as far as professional musicians go) but Dylan is one of the greats. Ringo can sing a small group of styles, Dylan can sing in a litany of styles
I wasn’t really thinking about fairness, just that both of them have people who don’t like their voices, so I was interested in what people had to say about what they like or don’t like
Like A Rolling Stone was my first proper listen to a Dylan song, and I did not like it. I found his voice really weird. But then I started to listen to him more and overtime I understood his singing style, and I quickly fell in love with his voice. There’s just something so natural yet emotional about it
Ok, this is coming from a vocalist’s perspective: ringo has no nuance whatsoever. I cannot stand listening to him. It’s not that his vocal quality is bad. His voice is perfectly fine. It’s just that he is not a musician vocally.
they are two entirely different singers and they both sing different types of music. ringo's voice is deep and warm, while bob's voice is higher pitched and has more flexibility
I actually prefer Bob’s vocals
Dylan is one of my faves full stop. I’d put him ahead of George vocally, myself.
Bob by a lot
Bob Dylan is my favorite singer of all time, so the answer is easy. But I really enjoy Ringo’s singing as well. The songs that he sings on wouldn’t be as good with anyone else from the band singing.
Dylan wins 100% of the time, for me. I think he’s one of the best singers ever. I don’t usually judge a singers performance by how “in tune” it is, but rather how much they can communicate the emotion of the song. Ringo and Bob are both great at that, but Bob is one of the greatest to ever do it. Ringo is a fun novelty singer, and can deliver a soulful vocal when needed. That being said, even Ringo would tell you that Bob is the better singer. Lastly, I will add that I am talking about Dylan’s voice pre-1980. If you asked me who has the better singing voice in 2023, I’d go Ringo all the way. Holy hell has Bob lost his voice, it almost makes me feel like crying when I hear him sing now. Oh well, that’s what aging does.
apparently aging doesnt apply to ringo lol
He is about the youngest looking 82 year old on the planet.
Hair dye will do that to ya
blasphemy
Aging affected Bob’s voice wayyyyyyy more than it did Ringo’s. If you hear Bob singing in the last 10 years it’s hard to imagine that it’s the same guy who made those songs in the 60’s. Ringo’s voice has matured and lost some power, but he still sounds relatively similar to how he always sounded.
I’d generally agree with you about Bob’s vocals now, but his vocals on that last album (Rough and Rowdy Ways) are pretty fantastic. Far better than the vocals on the previous album (Tempest).
Truth is, Bob Dylan could never sing. Did you ever hear that goof song he wrote, " Don't fall apart on me tonight," from the 1980's? Sounds like he's singing out of his nose, Hahahahahahaha!!! Looks like it too when one watches the video. That poor guy, he just could never sing. What a goof. The guy steals half the music he puts his name on.
Wow! apples & oranges. 2 completely different voices. I'd have to say I prefer to hear Ringo sing. I have to be in the mood to listen to Dylan Very thought provoking. Interesting question
Thanks for recognizing the subtlety of the question. Dylan is an amazing song craft, but I don’t personally like his voice. And they both receive criticism for their singing, so I thought it was an interesting comparison.
>apples & oranges. 2 completely different voices No they're not. They both suck
Is this even a question. Bob has one of the most expressive vocals ever and knows exactly how to use what he's got. Listen to Ballad of A Thin Man, Just Like A Woman, It's All Over Now Baby Blue. I'd say he's one of the best singers ever
wow, you and I have opinions that are 180 degrees out of phase, Dylan has a voice best suited for printed media - it's awful. The only song I can even listen to his singing on is "Subteranian Homesick Blues", he's alright on that on. Otherwise when he sings I wish I was deaf. Ringo is not a great singer but I can at least stand him on most songs and he's great on a few.
I have to agree with you. Ringo is not the best singer, but Dylan's, to me, is like nails on a chalk board.
yeah. Dylan writes much better songs than RIngo though.
Absolutely
listen to his later 60s albums, like john westley harding, nashville skyline and self portret. Im sure you will changer your mind
I've heard them, I was a child of the 60s, I never liked his voice. Except on that one song, which is really almost spoken word, not singing per se.
Did you listen to those songs I mentioned? I'd be surprised if you got no emotion from them. I'd also recommend Blood on The Tracks
look, it's nothing personal, I just really can't stand his voice. If it makes you feel any better - my wife loves his singing and I love her but we differ on this. I recognize Dylan's talent, I just can't abide his voice. And for anyone to say they think he's the best singer just explodes my brain, I mean even if you like his voice you have to acknowledge that there are other, much more pleasing voices in popular music.
I mean I'd agree that technically speaking there's way better singers than Bob and that his rage isn't great. But no one sings quite like Bob. I like the Adele version of Make You Feel My Love and Jeff Buckley's version of Just Like A Woman but Bob just sings them so much better because he has so much emotion even though those two are clearly the more talented singers. To each his own though
> But no one sings quite like Bob. thank goodness! (just kidding). I love Adele's "Make You Feel My Love" and I thank Bob for writing such a wonderful song, but her singing pleases me, his does not. As you said: to each his own. I'm glad you get enjoyment from his voice.
[удалено]
HELL of a songwriter/poet. Singer? Not so much. And listen, I'm not that picky: I even like Neil Young, but Dylan? His voice is unpleasant to me.
Yeah I like a lot of Bob Dylan covers, but I think that he needed to go the route of Roger Waters on Dark Side of the Moon and let someone else handle the actual performance
Gilmour did most of the singing on most Pink Floyd albums after the first two (which had Sid Barrett as the singer). Roger sings here and there and more so on "The Wall" but his voice is.... not pleasant. Sometimes that's what you want though. Gilmour's is dreamy and very well suited to the PF sound.
It definitely works on parts of the wall, he’s imitating a rambling fascist on Run Like Hell and he sounds broken and unhinged
right. they did a good job of using Roger's voice on the right songs - until "The Final Cut" anyway, which is the only Pink Floyd album I can't listen to. His lyrics were light years better than most of what Gilmour (or his wife) ever came up with.
Dude, you’re a pro!
Who would win in a fight: Paul or Johnny Cash.
dylan by a long shot
Like asking whether I’d prefer to be shot or hanged
I disagree but this made me laugh
Ringo and Bob are two sides of the same coin, they both don’t have amazing voices but they perfectly suit the style of music they sing, still I prefer Dylan’s voice, especially on Nashville Skyline
Ringo: voice > lyrics Dylan: lyrics > voice
Ringo by far. I don't really like Dylan aside from a handful of songs. I admit his voice annoys me. Ringo I love! Of course he isn't as good as the other beatles singing but he has my 2nd favorite solo career after Paul.
Genuine question, what are a few good Ringo solo-career songs? I haven’t liked any of the ones I’ve listened to
Which ones did you listen to? He has the only 2 albums with collaborations with all 3 other beetles in some capacity. If you didn’t like any of those songs written/co-written/performed with the other beatles you probably aren’t going to like anything else I have admittedly unpopular taste, but I love the first 2 tracks on Rotogravure. They’re high energy and kinda dancy, and not deep or lyrical, just fun, which is why I like them
Wings (make sure its the 70s version. He re-recorded it in 2012) Pure Gold (written by Paul. Paul almost gave him Let Em In but chose this) I'll Still Love You (written by George and ggeorge didn't like how he sang it so he sued him) I Keep Forgettin Drowning In The Sea of Love Monkey See Monkey Do
Lol
I'll go with Ringo
Dylan is one of the most important vocalists in Rock history. Ringo didn’t have much business being near a microphone.
>Ringo didn’t have much business being near a microphone That’s a bit harsh
True though
I highly disagree
One of the most important vocalists in rock history? Wait what? He's up there with whom, Freddie Mercury, Robert Plant or Paul? Don't let your admiration take you to the pitfall of lunacy... I like Eric Clapton, and think his voice fits his songs, but he's not a great vocalist. Still he is thousands of times better than Dylan.
There's a lot more to being one of the most important singers than being a powerhouse or even hugely proficient. Dylan's way of twisting & mangling his melodies was progressive for the time in folk & rock. Moreover Clapton may be more palatable & less pitchy or nasally. But he's nowhere near as expressive or emotive a singer as Dylan & hasn't been influential as vocalist at all. If you're able to look past what you don't like about Dylan's voice you may find there's plenty of merit to his singing.
Why would I want to look past what I don’t like? It’s painful to listen to. I don’t even think of him as a “vocalist.”
Yeah I don’t get all the praise about his “expression” and “emotion”, he sounds like a lawnmower and literally doesn’t change the way he sings - he would get kicked out of a fucking church choir
I think they meant that he's so important because he inspired a lot of other artist who weren't technically great singers to make music such as Jimi Hendrix, Lou Reed, Leonard Cohen, Neil Young
You can always sniff out the Clapton fan before he announces it.
Idiotic comment. I literally said I liked Clapton, so I don't know why you're sniffing around if not for a weird kink.
I think the greatest testament to Dylan’s singing ability is that all the covers of his songs sound neutered and lifeless in comparison with the original.
I'm not saying his songs aren't good when sung by him, I'm saying he will not be remembered as a great vocalist, because he is not really one. You never get mesmerized when listening to him. But on that note you're saying, IMO The Byrds immortalized Mr Tambourine Man. Just an example, and it's also my opinion and nothing more.
Dylan by a mile. Dylan has a very interesting/distinctive voice and singing style(s). I like Ringo, nothing against him, but he does not. But I will say that Ringo's not particularly great (or even good) vocals don't really bother me one bit. My taste is generally anti-vocal theatrics and no one has more of a "plain jane" voice than Ringo. I think the averageness of Ringo's voice is actually charming in a way. I'll take The Beatles version "With a Little Help From My Friends" over Joe Cocker's any day, a lot of people prefer the Cocker version and obviously Cocker is a better singer than Ringo by any normal metric but for me The Beatles original is much much better. But I guess that has more to do with the overall arrangement of the song than anything else. Although I think it's cool that Cocker did such a different version and made it his own. Well I guess this has gone on quite a tangent.
Thats the first I’ve time I’ve heard/read that Ringo’s voice is not distinct. I can’t think of anyone that sounds like him. I see what you mean by plain Jane, in the way you described that cocker comparison, but I think it’s still quite unique.
My question to you! Who’s a better bass player: John Lennon or Roy Orbison?
Dylan. Lennon’s vocals are largely inspired by Dylan.
I don't think that is quite true. Bob Dylan certainly in spired John's songwriting, mainly in the 1964/1965 era, but It would be quite a stretch to say he inspired John Lennon's vocals at all. John always had his nasal sound, and didn't change it because of Dylan (besides like, 2 songs in beatles for sale)
You’ve Got To Hide Your Love Away and Norwegian Wood are heavily Dylan inspired
In the matters of songwriting, absolutely, John said so himself, vocally, sounds like John Lennon with the flu
*Lennon sounds like Dylan without the flu
True. lol
Well, You've got to hide your love away reminds me a lot of Bob Dylans singing style.
Well, that is just John's tone and sound. Having a nasal voice is not being inspired by Dylans singing. Altough, if my memory is not already failing me, he did say in a later interview (I think it was either for PlayBoy or Rolling Stone in the early 70s) that he just straight up copied dylan in a few songs at this time, which is not being inspired by Bob, it is more of a "lets copy our friend Bob"
Well, since I can’t stand Dylan’s voice…
Dylan sounds much better in person. I too couldn't stand his voice until I saw him in concert.
Both have distinct voices that are not versatile. And you can't make them sing each other's song too. That would be comical. Let's just say their voices are a good fit for the kind of songs they sing.
Bob Dylan not versatile?
Not versatile. He can sing folk and maybe a couple of rockers, but that's it, and he doesn't sound good doing it (although I must admit, sometimes his duck voice soothes my mood and I go for it)
Listen to "tonight I'll be staying here with you", the album version and then the live 1975 version and tell me he isn't versatile.
I could totally hear ringo doin a legitimately great cover of Lay Lady Lay
Maybe I’m a maniac but i would love an album of them singing each other’s best of
Ok let's make it happen! 
I prefer Ringo's voice
The ringster Octopus daddy has best voice
Bob Dylan is a songwriting genius but I only really like his singing on Highway 61 Revisited. Ringo doesn't really have range but I love his singing voice either way
Ringo. I can’t listen to Dylan
Hmmmm, would I rather be barefoot and step in feces or vomit? Tough choice
Ringo is so much fucking better, which is a depressing indictment of Bob Dylan as the worst singer to ever get a contract Look I get that he’s a great songwriter, but he is literally the last person who should be allowed in a recording booth
This post makes me angry
Ringo, without a doubt! I've really tried liking Dylan because he's got some great songs, but I just can't stand his voice.
Maybe Bob didn't even like his own voices, hence Nashville Skyline's "Kermit the Bob" voice, but I wouldn't want to hear Desolation Row from any other voice.
Bob Dylan
Apples to oranges
Honestly? Neither. But if I had to choose I'd go with Bob.
I think Bob sounds like boomhauer from KOTH lol In my opinion he was only good in the Wilburys. Ringo is a brilliant drummer and his voice doesn’t sound like someone talking too fast
Interesting would have been Dylan or Pavarotti?
Dylan, I actually love his vocals
Ringos voice just isn’t my personal favorite but it’s not bad at all.
I love Bob Dylan's voice and singing style(s). The fact that it's changed radically over the years makes it even more captivating. Just during his '60s heyday, it changed a number of times, from the prophetic folk-isms of Freewheelin', trough the nasal, wild mercury sounds of Blonde on Blonde, to the warm country croon of "Lay Lady Lay". And it kept on changing, albeit by the 1980s, it kinda settled into that familiar groove that's been parodied many times. Still, the way he phrases the words in songs like "Not Dark Yet", he uses his limited technical range in a brilliant way. Gives me chills every time I hear it.
Funny question! We all know they’re both hard to take. 😀
Ringo, Dylan’s voice makes me cringe. And don’t get me started on his horrible harmonica playing!
Bob Dylan can’t sing well but you feel every single syllable. He’s preternaturally talented at vocals. Not even John Lennon himself did it as well as Dylan.
I don’t see how this is a fair comparison. Ringo is an alright singer (as far as professional musicians go) but Dylan is one of the greats. Ringo can sing a small group of styles, Dylan can sing in a litany of styles
I wasn’t really thinking about fairness, just that both of them have people who don’t like their voices, so I was interested in what people had to say about what they like or don’t like
Fair enough, I just don’t think they’re on equal footing.
ringo baby ringo Bob is still an unparalleled songwriter, unbeatable
Like A Rolling Stone was my first proper listen to a Dylan song, and I did not like it. I found his voice really weird. But then I started to listen to him more and overtime I understood his singing style, and I quickly fell in love with his voice. There’s just something so natural yet emotional about it
Bob
Ok, this is coming from a vocalist’s perspective: ringo has no nuance whatsoever. I cannot stand listening to him. It’s not that his vocal quality is bad. His voice is perfectly fine. It’s just that he is not a musician vocally.
Gotta be Bobby
Running
?
RINGO!
Ringo.
DYLAN !00 % !
oops! lol. I meant to type : BOB DYLAN : 100 % !
Blonde on Blonde is an incredibly sung album. Dylan is an underrated GREAT singer.
I’d have to say Dylan
they are two entirely different singers and they both sing different types of music. ringo's voice is deep and warm, while bob's voice is higher pitched and has more flexibility