This was a well-produced piece, thank you for posting. Regardless of the state v. federal decision, you have to love that the defense’s central argument is “hey truck hit person sometimes, what can you do” *shrug*. Completely minimizing the horrible vehicle on person violence that as a society we’ve somehow just chosen to accept.
Glad you valued the post. This case bothers me because the DEA agent was just doing surveillance and lost his team. Somehow running over a middle aged woman trying to catch up is justified in agents eyes.
Wouldn’t someone doing surveillance be MORE aware of their surrounds, especially when it’s their job? Seems like the biggest danger on the street that day was a reckless DEA agent behind the wheel, not the fentanyl dealer that was being watched. (fuck fentanyl dealers too but I don’t hold them to the same standard)
That was the first thought I had, this dude must really suck at his job…so much so that he can’t even surveil his surroundings thoroughly enough to not run someone down with his vehicle.
I think you’re giving DEA agents too much credit if you expect them to be particularly situationally aware. They’re a bunch of bozos like most other law enforcement personnel. Doesn’t in any way excuse killing someone, just saying it doesn’t surprise me.
The issue is how broad of a defense it has become. The entire point of it being qualified immunity is that you only qualify for immunity when you following all policy, procedures, and training for your agency.
Running a stop sign to catch up a with surveillance team is almost definitively not qualified as I strongly doubt their training would tell them that was ok to do.
A good example of where it should apply is suppose a VA doctor performs an abortion in Texas because the women’s life is in jeopardy according to the VA training/procedures. Texas tries under state law to charge the doctor with a crime for the abortion. So long as the VA doctor followed the procedures/training/policy of the VA for performing an abortion (for example, a table which says when the patient presents with ABC symptoms, then there life is in danger and an abortion should be performed) they should qualify for immunity from the Texas charges, even if they did commit a crime under Texas state law, because they were simply doing their job to the letter of VA guidelines
In practice, QI is pretty much broken. Doctors were too scared to perform abortions, even sometimes to the point where women would've died if they didn't keep seeking help, so they effectively weren't protected and police/public officials regularly abuse the hell out of it.
QI at the federal level only applies to federal employees- like VA doctors, but would not cover non federal government doctors. I used the example of VA doctors because it’s a very real possibility QI will be needed to shield them
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/03/07/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-continues-the-fight-for-reproductive-freedom/
Provide Access to Reproductive Health Care for Veterans. The Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) issued a final rule to allow VA to provide abortion counseling and, in certain circumstances, abortion care to veterans and VA beneficiaries. Under this rule, VA provides abortion services when the health or life of the patient would be endangered if the pregnancy were carried to term or when the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest. When working within the scope of their federal employment, VA employees may provide abortion services as authorized by federal law regardless of state restrictions.
> Qualified immunity! It's not for you, it's just for me.
>
> I shot your dog! I shot your wife! I get to go on with my life!
https://youtu.be/cE4tEkUqPrk?t=89
The President of USA doesn't have qualified immunity ^* , so why should the law enforcement officers have qualified imminity for their illegal acts?
* As far as I know.
Isn't this kinda what the Supreme Court is trying to figure out right now, with regards to trump? Not specifically qualified immunity I guess but the same ideas
Yup. If one day we realize that the only way to stop fentanyl influx is to stop people wanting it, we’ll be better off. We will NEVER, ever, ever be able to stop the flow of drugs into the US when we have so many people addicted and money to spend. We can’t arrest our way out of this problem. If the agent was on his way to arrest the Sackler family we could maybe talk immunity
We can stop the illegal flow of drugs. Legalize them all. It's not a great solution, but it's a hell of a lot better than the current one.
Legalize, tax, help those who need help.
So if we’re thinking of this logically.
He fell behind his other surveillance buddies,proceeded to run stop signs, then killed an innocent cyclist.
I’m just struggling to understand that if he fell behind, what was the big rush in catching back up, his team had it covered and it would have likely had 0 impact him not being present, they were conducting surveillance not making arrests, his boss may have been pissed but that’s life.
I mean I might be living in a black and white world but this guy was just speeding like an idiot because he was running behind, if I did the same because I was running behind for work I’d be going to jail.
Fuck this guy and the people defending him using taxpayers money to do so.
I feel a bit guilty even having suggested it, but I'm tired of our current systems.
I've been broken by two different drivers, and it's played a major role in ruining my life in my mid-30s.
The cyclist was a middle aged, most likely middle-class white woman.
If the cyclist was a 20-something, working class dude who couldn't afford a car, nobody would care.
Sure, of course. The inherent inequity in who gets attention (e.g. middle aged men experiencing homeless are proportionally most at risk of traffic violence) doesn’t mean that this case isn’t important and that the victim, their family and their community shouldn’t see some sort of justice served.
Make that 20/30 something and that was what it took for SF to change 3 door zone bike lanes to bike lanes with wide buffers by removing one car lane on those streets.
7th St, Howard St, and Folsom St.
the problem goes deeper, thats whats really frustrating. cars are dumb to begin with. theres way too many of them, and fentanyl is not gonna be stopped no matter how many stop signs they run. now they will have court about the details and no mention of changing anything at all. keep the status quo and move on. another traffic fatality chalked up to the culture of disgrace and absent mindedness.
It would be bad enough if it was just a reckless driver. That he was acting as a DEA agent means his argument is "I was really, really hurrying to ruin someone's life and so I should get off without consequence for killing someone else"
This has nothing to do with qualified immunity.
It's about federal immunity.
Qualified immunity is a defense to federal civil rights suits and doesn't apply in criminal cases. This a criminal case.
Federal immunity prohibits the state criminal prosecution of a federal law enforcement official under certain circumstances. But it isn't a defense to a federal criminal prosecution.
Essentially, the DEA agent is arguing that he is immune from criminal prosecution in a state criminal court.
So if you are on duty you're allowed to recklessly mow down any random person. I thought that only worked for shaky diplomatic immunity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Harry_Dunn
Don't bring up diplomatic immunity... it gives a flash backs to a couple months ago where that self entitled brat tried claiming diplomatic immunity after he ran over a cop who pulled him over...
https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/no-immunity-for-israeli-diplomats-son-accused-of-running-over-a-sunny-isles-beach-cop/3223005/
Oh you know anyone who has money or is here on diplomatic reasons will use it when they commit a crime. Heck didn't that one diplomat some years ago order his protective agents to open fire on protesters just because they were protesters and weren't doing any harm to him at all?
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This was a well-produced piece, thank you for posting. Regardless of the state v. federal decision, you have to love that the defense’s central argument is “hey truck hit person sometimes, what can you do” *shrug*. Completely minimizing the horrible vehicle on person violence that as a society we’ve somehow just chosen to accept.
Glad you valued the post. This case bothers me because the DEA agent was just doing surveillance and lost his team. Somehow running over a middle aged woman trying to catch up is justified in agents eyes. Wouldn’t someone doing surveillance be MORE aware of their surrounds, especially when it’s their job? Seems like the biggest danger on the street that day was a reckless DEA agent behind the wheel, not the fentanyl dealer that was being watched. (fuck fentanyl dealers too but I don’t hold them to the same standard)
That was the first thought I had, this dude must really suck at his job…so much so that he can’t even surveil his surroundings thoroughly enough to not run someone down with his vehicle.
For sure the opposite. If they were focused on following someone they'll be less focused on the road.
I think you’re giving DEA agents too much credit if you expect them to be particularly situationally aware. They’re a bunch of bozos like most other law enforcement personnel. Doesn’t in any way excuse killing someone, just saying it doesn’t surprise me.
The idea that someone has immunity from common law destroys common law. its anarchy.
Obligatory abolish qualified immunity...
It has been egregiously abused for decades, it clearly should not be a thing: Nobody is supposed to be beyond accountability.
The issue is how broad of a defense it has become. The entire point of it being qualified immunity is that you only qualify for immunity when you following all policy, procedures, and training for your agency. Running a stop sign to catch up a with surveillance team is almost definitively not qualified as I strongly doubt their training would tell them that was ok to do. A good example of where it should apply is suppose a VA doctor performs an abortion in Texas because the women’s life is in jeopardy according to the VA training/procedures. Texas tries under state law to charge the doctor with a crime for the abortion. So long as the VA doctor followed the procedures/training/policy of the VA for performing an abortion (for example, a table which says when the patient presents with ABC symptoms, then there life is in danger and an abortion should be performed) they should qualify for immunity from the Texas charges, even if they did commit a crime under Texas state law, because they were simply doing their job to the letter of VA guidelines
In practice, QI is pretty much broken. Doctors were too scared to perform abortions, even sometimes to the point where women would've died if they didn't keep seeking help, so they effectively weren't protected and police/public officials regularly abuse the hell out of it.
QI at the federal level only applies to federal employees- like VA doctors, but would not cover non federal government doctors. I used the example of VA doctors because it’s a very real possibility QI will be needed to shield them https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/03/07/fact-sheet-biden-harris-administration-continues-the-fight-for-reproductive-freedom/ Provide Access to Reproductive Health Care for Veterans. The Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) issued a final rule to allow VA to provide abortion counseling and, in certain circumstances, abortion care to veterans and VA beneficiaries. Under this rule, VA provides abortion services when the health or life of the patient would be endangered if the pregnancy were carried to term or when the pregnancy is a result of rape or incest. When working within the scope of their federal employment, VA employees may provide abortion services as authorized by federal law regardless of state restrictions.
Sure, but the point remains: QI is clearly broken and badly abused.
> Qualified immunity! It's not for you, it's just for me. > > I shot your dog! I shot your wife! I get to go on with my life! https://youtu.be/cE4tEkUqPrk?t=89
The President of USA doesn't have qualified immunity ^* , so why should the law enforcement officers have qualified imminity for their illegal acts? * As far as I know.
Isn't this kinda what the Supreme Court is trying to figure out right now, with regards to trump? Not specifically qualified immunity I guess but the same ideas
Yes
The pointless war on drugs claims yet another victim.
Yup. If one day we realize that the only way to stop fentanyl influx is to stop people wanting it, we’ll be better off. We will NEVER, ever, ever be able to stop the flow of drugs into the US when we have so many people addicted and money to spend. We can’t arrest our way out of this problem. If the agent was on his way to arrest the Sackler family we could maybe talk immunity
We can stop the illegal flow of drugs. Legalize them all. It's not a great solution, but it's a hell of a lot better than the current one. Legalize, tax, help those who need help.
Well now what do we declare war on?
Poverty? The guerrilla war on cyclists?
Cyclists, clearly
I'd say cars but we lost every war we ever started agains concepts
We won the war on education
Congress?
What did he know at the time? It’s illegal to run someone over. I’m sure he knew that.
So if we’re thinking of this logically. He fell behind his other surveillance buddies,proceeded to run stop signs, then killed an innocent cyclist. I’m just struggling to understand that if he fell behind, what was the big rush in catching back up, his team had it covered and it would have likely had 0 impact him not being present, they were conducting surveillance not making arrests, his boss may have been pissed but that’s life. I mean I might be living in a black and white world but this guy was just speeding like an idiot because he was running behind, if I did the same because I was running behind for work I’d be going to jail. Fuck this guy and the people defending him using taxpayers money to do so.
Fuck this guy.
how do you sleep at night arguing that running the stop sign 'seemed right at the time'?
Because it keeps you sleeping at night in *your own bed*.
Is turnabout no longer fair play? Run that dick over.
Sadly my vehicle isn't 2 tons of fragile ego and wouldn't have the same impact.
I feel a bit guilty even having suggested it, but I'm tired of our current systems. I've been broken by two different drivers, and it's played a major role in ruining my life in my mid-30s.
What a fucking piece of shit... No remorse for killing someone and wanting immunity, fuck him.
The cyclist was a middle aged, most likely middle-class white woman. If the cyclist was a 20-something, working class dude who couldn't afford a car, nobody would care.
If it takes a middle aged white woman to get qualified immunity abolished I will build a statue of her
Sure, of course. The inherent inequity in who gets attention (e.g. middle aged men experiencing homeless are proportionally most at risk of traffic violence) doesn’t mean that this case isn’t important and that the victim, their family and their community shouldn’t see some sort of justice served.
he’s just pointing out that not all cases of cyclist accidents receive the same treatment; it depends on demographic. some people don’t realize that.
Make that 20/30 something and that was what it took for SF to change 3 door zone bike lanes to bike lanes with wide buffers by removing one car lane on those streets. 7th St, Howard St, and Folsom St.
As a daily bike commuter, it's a heartbreaking story. The blinking front light on her crushed bike ....
It’s always so wild to me that the people tasked with enforcing laws always try so hard to squirm out of them when one might (rightfully) punish them
ACAB
100%
take him in boys
Running stop signs because you are late for work is not a very good excuse.
the problem goes deeper, thats whats really frustrating. cars are dumb to begin with. theres way too many of them, and fentanyl is not gonna be stopped no matter how many stop signs they run. now they will have court about the details and no mention of changing anything at all. keep the status quo and move on. another traffic fatality chalked up to the culture of disgrace and absent mindedness.
It would be bad enough if it was just a reckless driver. That he was acting as a DEA agent means his argument is "I was really, really hurrying to ruin someone's life and so I should get off without consequence for killing someone else"
This has nothing to do with qualified immunity. It's about federal immunity. Qualified immunity is a defense to federal civil rights suits and doesn't apply in criminal cases. This a criminal case. Federal immunity prohibits the state criminal prosecution of a federal law enforcement official under certain circumstances. But it isn't a defense to a federal criminal prosecution. Essentially, the DEA agent is arguing that he is immune from criminal prosecution in a state criminal court.
So if you are on duty you're allowed to recklessly mow down any random person. I thought that only worked for shaky diplomatic immunity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Harry_Dunn
Don't bring up diplomatic immunity... it gives a flash backs to a couple months ago where that self entitled brat tried claiming diplomatic immunity after he ran over a cop who pulled him over... https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/no-immunity-for-israeli-diplomats-son-accused-of-running-over-a-sunny-isles-beach-cop/3223005/
Oh you know anyone who has money or is here on diplomatic reasons will use it when they commit a crime. Heck didn't that one diplomat some years ago order his protective agents to open fire on protesters just because they were protesters and weren't doing any harm to him at all?
Obligatory acab
What's the difference if you fired a gun into a crowd of people while on duty?
Not much They do that though with similar recourse
Hi forgive the request: I'm not a native speaker and I'm struggling to understand the context. Can you please explain the fact?
ACAB
Murdering a citizen! There is no excuse. I'm a ebiker and this has me crying and angry at the same time.
Share to r/fuckcars
Riding to work thru a fentanyl filled city soon. WISH ME LUCK! Hope a DEA agent doesn't hit me.
This is one agency the government should end. I think the most corrupt force in the United States
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