Danahers is a high wrist high elbow. It gets what he calls double closure around the neck. Lachlan is just a high elbow . There's alot of different guillotines .
Right, but why does having the high wrist mean we should not sit back without having the leg over first contrasted with the way Lachlan shows? And if the high wrist creates double closure why doesn't Lachlan show this, is it because its harder to achieve? Thanks!
I’m sure Lachlan would give a different answer (probably along the lines of different strokes different folks, followed by a sound technical reason) but front head is one one of my strongest positions and this is how I look at it
High wrist high elbow is pretty much a wrap, if you get to that position anchoring yourself into that position is the most important thing bc you don’t want to lose it. Extraordinarily strong finishing position
Just High elbow, still an incredibly strong choke but there are more ways for your opponent to alleviate the pressure / defend. In fact there are some very slick back takes if your bottom leg is limp like Danahers when he’s demonstrating the problem with sitting. So… you need to connect to it’s your opponent in the most efficient manner so that you can follow them through wherever the other players defense takes you. I would happily accept mount
TL DR: high elbow, high wrist is about anchoring yourself there to finish. High elbow (w/o high wrist) is about creating meaningful connection so we can follow their attempts to defend and either finish or improve position
As the other guys said, there's a ton of different guillotine variations. Are you expecting Lachlan to show every variation just because Danaher showed a different one?
If you like throwing the leg over before falling back then try it out with both versions. A lot of these things are mostly preferential.
I'm asking because Danaher says not throwing the leg over before sitting back is a bad idea and I'm wondering why Lachlan does it his way insofar is there an advantage to that that Danaher doesn't mention
Danaher can throw his leg over before sitting back because the high wrist grip brings his hips closer due to his the angle of his elbow and shoulders.
Anatomically it's harder to do the same with Lachlan's grip, also he needs to create space between their shoulders and your chest for the fulcram (forearm /elbow) to finish, whereas with danahers that has already been secured.
Like others have said, they're different techniques with their own pros and cons so different rules apply.
Danahers is much harder to get the initial grip but easier to finish, Lachlans is harder to finish but it's generally much easier to get the initial grip on someone
It all depends on what they're doing to defend it. If they keep turning towards you or grabbing the legs, you might not be able to get the leg over first. So in that case, Lachlans version is a good way to pull their weight over you. And even if they do fall to the side, that's not really a bad thing. You can quite easily follow them and end up on top.
Also, I don't get why someone would get downvoted for asking questions. Surely, it's something we should encourage
Aside from the usual personal preference, differing body types and pressures, they are looking at two different situations.
The first guy is looking at a much more open and upright opponent, the second is a much more controlled front headlock pressure.
The first guy utilises the space to get his bottom leg engaged and attached, which mitigates the risk of the "flop to the back" defence. The second can't engage the bottom leg and so ensures he had connected the top leg to mitigate the risk.
Yeah, this biggest distinction I noticed was the engagement of the bottom leg. Giles, having an active bottom leg, had much more control over where his opponent could and couldn't escape (including bkocking the rollout Danaher shows). That means his most likely means of escape would be to try to pass over the outside leg, which is why, when sitting back, Giles throws his leg over. Danaher doesn't have that initial control with the inside leg so he needs to utilize closing the space and securing the outside leg position quicker than Giles would. That was a long form way to say "I agree."
I’m really not seeing how lachlan’s positioning blocks the roll. Seems to me it almost encourages it. The hook/foot blocks the escape to the uke’s right, but I don’t see that knee blocking the left side effectively.
So I use this sequence a \*lot\*, and the core difference between Lachlan's setup and Danaher's critique is Uke's body position. Lachlan doesn't just get the hand position and "flop back", he sits uke up and puts their hips and weight back on their heels (you can see it in the clip) - then feeds the inside leg across the hips, and \*then\* you sit into them (not back), bringing your top leg over the back as you fall to your side. In the demo Lachlan does it very slowly, but a full pace, its super quick.
The importance of sitting them back on their heels can't be overstated. It essentially "pins" the hips temporarily, so you have time to set your legs as you sit in, and makes it much harder to simply roll out - and if uke does roll out, you are so connected that you just roll with them and take top position.
Danaher is (as he often does) setting up a pretty weak straw man to demo his preferred version against.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but the angle of the head and neck compared to the hips and shoulders make the roll far less effective and potentially even dangerous? It's not so much that the inside leg is blocking the roll, but the frame from the inside leg in creating a control over the angle and making it harder to roll. And that's not to say they'll never roll, but it allows enough time to effectively sit back before throwing rhe outside leg over.
Lachlan is using a shallow grip guillotine with a high elbow. In my experience, it's more practical because getting that ideal deep guillotine Danaher is showing is less likely.
Because he's using the bottom leg underneath as a shield of sorts to limit the movement. By jamming the shield in front and pinching down with the gilly at the top you can almost anchor yourself to the opponent so that where they move, you also move.
You will likely see more people doing what Lachlan is doing more frequently than you will see people doing what Danaher is doing because the first option is much quicker and easier to catch someone slipping. Danaher says putting the leg over afterwards is too slow, but you also need to have already established full control to do what Danaher is doing which in and of itself takes time.
A lot of top guys will do both depending on the situation. Like for example if you've only got a little bit of time left, or if you feel like your opponent has a lapse of judgment, you can wrap up Lachlan's version lighting quick.
Whereas if you have more time left to work and you also feel like your opponent is aware of what you're about to do, Danaher's option is better because it's much more control based.
Pretty much. A third option is also to roll back and actually roll them over yourself as well so you can follow and get a mounted gilly, because you're preempting their escape and forcing them to move exactly how you want.
I think danaher’s way is an optimization that lachlan just doesnt do. Also I find danaher’s guillotine much harder to catch. Show me a high level match where someone catches danaher’s version of the guillotine.
Has more to do with the posture.
Lachlan teaches it as a system for arm in, arm out, and high elbow that to get your opponent’s head in a good position you first. He likes to step in, get their head high up on your chest, then sit back. This applies to more guillotine types.
Danaher seems to be focusing on the ideal choking scenario where you have the best guillotine type and don’t need to adjust the choke. So for his he can keep the posture down and get the leg over without much issue where Lachlan needs to come back and get their posture back down first to get the leg over.
Lachlan shows defense and follow ups to people sitting back also. So yes maybe they call fall back and defend but then you transition to anaconda, darce, mounted guillotine etc.
This right here. The step in is an essential step that puts the opponents weight back on their heels, which goes a long way to preventing their movement, giving you plenty of time to get the top leg over.
Guillotine is my #1 attack, I do Lachie's method, and very rarely do I have anyone roll out...and even if they do I just follow to top and finish anyway.
It has been mentioned in this thread already but I'll reiterate, these are two diferent positions.
Good luck doing the Danaher way on someone in the position in the Lachlan video.
Try both.
1. Which one looks correct?
2. Which one gets more submissions by others?
3. Which one works best for you and works for you?
Answer is 3.
Learn 17 more variations and go through checklist again.
They can both work. What determines if it does is the opponent reacting to it.
My counter to JD’s would be a sit through with my right leg as soon as I feel it around my head. Against LG’s, I’d have to protect my neck first and clear that inside knee which I feel would be more difficult. Of course timing is everything against a guillotine and everything works when drilling lol
The other day I couldn't finish the guillotine on a very skilled grappler. He was rolling out of it. Now, seeing how Danaher shows it, I definitely shall try his way
In scrambles and from butterfly hooks and other scenarios sometimes it’s not possible to do Danaher’s foot over first rather get the high elbow grip First then adjust the hips to throw the leg over. Marcelo throws his leg over after the grip is setup. Also Lachlan has short legs could be better for him to throw it over afterwards.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XCiRr7TW2bk
Here danaher throwing leg over after. So it’s a position by position scenario.
Danahers is a high wrist high elbow. It gets what he calls double closure around the neck. Lachlan is just a high elbow . There's alot of different guillotines .
Right, but why does having the high wrist mean we should not sit back without having the leg over first contrasted with the way Lachlan shows? And if the high wrist creates double closure why doesn't Lachlan show this, is it because its harder to achieve? Thanks!
I’m sure Lachlan would give a different answer (probably along the lines of different strokes different folks, followed by a sound technical reason) but front head is one one of my strongest positions and this is how I look at it High wrist high elbow is pretty much a wrap, if you get to that position anchoring yourself into that position is the most important thing bc you don’t want to lose it. Extraordinarily strong finishing position Just High elbow, still an incredibly strong choke but there are more ways for your opponent to alleviate the pressure / defend. In fact there are some very slick back takes if your bottom leg is limp like Danahers when he’s demonstrating the problem with sitting. So… you need to connect to it’s your opponent in the most efficient manner so that you can follow them through wherever the other players defense takes you. I would happily accept mount TL DR: high elbow, high wrist is about anchoring yourself there to finish. High elbow (w/o high wrist) is about creating meaningful connection so we can follow their attempts to defend and either finish or improve position
As the other guys said, there's a ton of different guillotine variations. Are you expecting Lachlan to show every variation just because Danaher showed a different one? If you like throwing the leg over before falling back then try it out with both versions. A lot of these things are mostly preferential.
I'm asking because Danaher says not throwing the leg over before sitting back is a bad idea and I'm wondering why Lachlan does it his way insofar is there an advantage to that that Danaher doesn't mention
Danaher can throw his leg over before sitting back because the high wrist grip brings his hips closer due to his the angle of his elbow and shoulders. Anatomically it's harder to do the same with Lachlan's grip, also he needs to create space between their shoulders and your chest for the fulcram (forearm /elbow) to finish, whereas with danahers that has already been secured. Like others have said, they're different techniques with their own pros and cons so different rules apply. Danahers is much harder to get the initial grip but easier to finish, Lachlans is harder to finish but it's generally much easier to get the initial grip on someone
Punctuation.
It all depends on what they're doing to defend it. If they keep turning towards you or grabbing the legs, you might not be able to get the leg over first. So in that case, Lachlans version is a good way to pull their weight over you. And even if they do fall to the side, that's not really a bad thing. You can quite easily follow them and end up on top. Also, I don't get why someone would get downvoted for asking questions. Surely, it's something we should encourage
Gte lachlan's front headlock instructional and he goes over all of them. Not sure if submeta has all of.it yet
Aside from the usual personal preference, differing body types and pressures, they are looking at two different situations. The first guy is looking at a much more open and upright opponent, the second is a much more controlled front headlock pressure. The first guy utilises the space to get his bottom leg engaged and attached, which mitigates the risk of the "flop to the back" defence. The second can't engage the bottom leg and so ensures he had connected the top leg to mitigate the risk.
Yeah, this biggest distinction I noticed was the engagement of the bottom leg. Giles, having an active bottom leg, had much more control over where his opponent could and couldn't escape (including bkocking the rollout Danaher shows). That means his most likely means of escape would be to try to pass over the outside leg, which is why, when sitting back, Giles throws his leg over. Danaher doesn't have that initial control with the inside leg so he needs to utilize closing the space and securing the outside leg position quicker than Giles would. That was a long form way to say "I agree."
I’m really not seeing how lachlan’s positioning blocks the roll. Seems to me it almost encourages it. The hook/foot blocks the escape to the uke’s right, but I don’t see that knee blocking the left side effectively.
So I use this sequence a \*lot\*, and the core difference between Lachlan's setup and Danaher's critique is Uke's body position. Lachlan doesn't just get the hand position and "flop back", he sits uke up and puts their hips and weight back on their heels (you can see it in the clip) - then feeds the inside leg across the hips, and \*then\* you sit into them (not back), bringing your top leg over the back as you fall to your side. In the demo Lachlan does it very slowly, but a full pace, its super quick. The importance of sitting them back on their heels can't be overstated. It essentially "pins" the hips temporarily, so you have time to set your legs as you sit in, and makes it much harder to simply roll out - and if uke does roll out, you are so connected that you just roll with them and take top position. Danaher is (as he often does) setting up a pretty weak straw man to demo his preferred version against.
Maybe I'm mistaken, but the angle of the head and neck compared to the hips and shoulders make the roll far less effective and potentially even dangerous? It's not so much that the inside leg is blocking the roll, but the frame from the inside leg in creating a control over the angle and making it harder to roll. And that's not to say they'll never roll, but it allows enough time to effectively sit back before throwing rhe outside leg over.
Lachlan has a follow up section on countering the roll on this course
Interesting, perhaps. I think it’s hard to say on this one without feeling it honestly.
Lachlan has a section on the course about countering the roll after this, step 1 trying to prevent it and failing that entering inverted north south
Lachlan is using a shallow grip guillotine with a high elbow. In my experience, it's more practical because getting that ideal deep guillotine Danaher is showing is less likely.
But regardless of the grip why does Lachlan not throw the leg over before sitting back?
Because he's using the bottom leg underneath as a shield of sorts to limit the movement. By jamming the shield in front and pinching down with the gilly at the top you can almost anchor yourself to the opponent so that where they move, you also move. You will likely see more people doing what Lachlan is doing more frequently than you will see people doing what Danaher is doing because the first option is much quicker and easier to catch someone slipping. Danaher says putting the leg over afterwards is too slow, but you also need to have already established full control to do what Danaher is doing which in and of itself takes time. A lot of top guys will do both depending on the situation. Like for example if you've only got a little bit of time left, or if you feel like your opponent has a lapse of judgment, you can wrap up Lachlan's version lighting quick. Whereas if you have more time left to work and you also feel like your opponent is aware of what you're about to do, Danaher's option is better because it's much more control based.
This here. I mean if i let my opponent get a fully deep gilly with a leg over me i have fucked up a long time ago
Pretty much. A third option is also to roll back and actually roll them over yourself as well so you can follow and get a mounted gilly, because you're preempting their escape and forcing them to move exactly how you want.
I think danaher’s way is an optimization that lachlan just doesnt do. Also I find danaher’s guillotine much harder to catch. Show me a high level match where someone catches danaher’s version of the guillotine.
Lachlan is showing something more realistic, Danaher is showing something more idealistic.
Has more to do with the posture. Lachlan teaches it as a system for arm in, arm out, and high elbow that to get your opponent’s head in a good position you first. He likes to step in, get their head high up on your chest, then sit back. This applies to more guillotine types. Danaher seems to be focusing on the ideal choking scenario where you have the best guillotine type and don’t need to adjust the choke. So for his he can keep the posture down and get the leg over without much issue where Lachlan needs to come back and get their posture back down first to get the leg over. Lachlan shows defense and follow ups to people sitting back also. So yes maybe they call fall back and defend but then you transition to anaconda, darce, mounted guillotine etc.
This right here. The step in is an essential step that puts the opponents weight back on their heels, which goes a long way to preventing their movement, giving you plenty of time to get the top leg over. Guillotine is my #1 attack, I do Lachie's method, and very rarely do I have anyone roll out...and even if they do I just follow to top and finish anyway.
Babba. They different chokes
It has been mentioned in this thread already but I'll reiterate, these are two diferent positions. Good luck doing the Danaher way on someone in the position in the Lachlan video.
Right, I'd do the Danaher way when I get someone in the position on the Danaher video, and the Lachlan way against someone in the Lachlan video
It’s good you’re asking these kinds of questions
Because you can do things in more then one way.
is danaher's from one of his new fastest way ones? i wonder if he is straining to show weird new ways of doing things to sell more instructionals
Try both. 1. Which one looks correct? 2. Which one gets more submissions by others? 3. Which one works best for you and works for you? Answer is 3. Learn 17 more variations and go through checklist again.
What app is this on the first part of the video?
That’s lachlan’s website Sub-meta.
Thanks!
They can both work. What determines if it does is the opponent reacting to it. My counter to JD’s would be a sit through with my right leg as soon as I feel it around my head. Against LG’s, I’d have to protect my neck first and clear that inside knee which I feel would be more difficult. Of course timing is everything against a guillotine and everything works when drilling lol
The other day I couldn't finish the guillotine on a very skilled grappler. He was rolling out of it. Now, seeing how Danaher shows it, I definitely shall try his way
In scrambles and from butterfly hooks and other scenarios sometimes it’s not possible to do Danaher’s foot over first rather get the high elbow grip First then adjust the hips to throw the leg over. Marcelo throws his leg over after the grip is setup. Also Lachlan has short legs could be better for him to throw it over afterwards. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XCiRr7TW2bk Here danaher throwing leg over after. So it’s a position by position scenario.
What app is this?
Is this an app or something???
It's weird hearing Danaher speak at his normal pace. I'm so used to watching him at 1.5x.
I'm 95% sure that the clip OP has used is at 1.5x speed.
that clip was definitely sped up lol
A technique doesn’t need to be 100% effective for it to be worth teaching/learning