There’s a quote from history class that always stuck with me “Absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
It applies to more than just governments. Sometimes you see business owners of all types just be weirdo control freaks. A lot of strange behavior comes out of a scenario where “I’m in charge and no one can say ‘no,’ or even suggest maybe I’m wrong”
I dropped into Brian Warrens gym once, he had everyone bow there heads and say prayers before and after class, his students sucked, and he was not very good either, wish people would focus on bjj and not weird political or religious bs.
I pledge allegiance to the Gi,
Of the United Mats of BJJ,
And to the grapplers for which it stands,
One dojo, under Helio,
Indivisible, with oil checks and porra for all.
I mean they're not weird takes. There's nothing about combat-variety sports that inherently makes bowing at another human being any more necessary or worthwhile. We don't do it at our gym, yet everybody likes each other, treats each other well, and the world keeps spinning.
I think any martial art that involves getting put into chokeholds by relative strangers involves a lot of mutual trust and respect. From that point of view, bowing is a normal way of expressing that trust/gratitude for it.
It's been years since I've trained but our ritual would look like this:
Line up from most experienced to least experienced, bow to the teacher, bow to each other and then do a handshake lineup to thank each other for training if it was the end of class part.
We could both agree that there is a form of cult-like behaviour in those rituals but clearly it's different from pledging allegiance to the flag of a country. That just smells like radical nationalism.
I agree with the general sentiment here, so I'm not going to push back too much. Though I would question your suggestion that bowing is a "normal" way of showing respect.
At our gym, and in pretty much every other area of life in my part of the world, we show respect by being decent to each other rather than through any particular choreography. Obviously experiences will differ depending on where we live, though.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume neither of us are from Japan or medieval Europe so from that perspective, it is foreign/non natural for us. But clearly BJJ as many other forms of combat sports finds it heritage in Japanese military culture so it isn't a surprising gesture to have. I mean at least half of the people reading this will dress up in a gi and practice techniques that work best on people also dressed in a piece of garment that finds it origin in Japan.
It is maybe even more surprising to see it in for instance a Dutch kickboxing gym, often referred to as "thai-boxing" here, yet it also makes sense because a lot of those gyms got founded by guys that trained in Kyokushin-karate. But yeah if you are training in the US, maybe your teacher is from Brazil and all you do is no-gi, then you are 2 migrations away from anything even remotely Japanese so I can imagine it feels super foreign and weird in that regards.
Not many people know about Dutch kickboxing’s roots in Kyokushin Karate. You’re 100% right, Meijiro Gym and Vos Gym, which coached some of the most famous early Dutch kickboxers, were founded by karate experts who mixed boxing, karate, and Thai technique to create the distinct Dutch style.
By the way, I think Japanese formalisms are quite common in a lot of Brazilian gyms. Most of my Brazilian coaches have enforced some of the formalities (bowing, oss, lining up, sometimes the meditation, etc), even if the overall vibe of their class is otherwise quite informal.
I have also trained with Brazilians that are quite strict and formal. I could be wrong, but I think it might be because a lot of them trained Judo as a kid, and Brazilian Judo classes are pretty traditional with their formalities.
Jiu Jitsu haw it's roots from Japan where bowing is still a very normal and every day practice. Japan is also very ritualistic. Those two things together explain the tradition.
In its context inherited from Japan bowing is a symbol of respect, not worship, akin to a salute, handshake, removing one's hat in someone else's house, or taking a knee when your football coach is giving instructions.
It's honestly far less weird than the Pledge of Allegiance for a BJJ class.
I had this conversation recently with a former-military friend who goes to a more old-timey gym where they still do this stuff. He too compared it to saluting in the military. I asked "so you never saluted someone whilst thinking to yourself 'wow this guy is a cunt'?"
He got the point after this exchange. Respect is treating people decently, not acting out some rehearsed choreography.
I know you weren't defending these performative practices btw, you were just offering some context.
Right, but I don't think there's anything wrong with adopting perfunctory gestures when you're joining a micro-culture like BJJ. A cultural export like martial arts that has a recent and defined historical lineage like this will almost necessarily have some traditions that are different from wherever it happens to be practiced. As others have said, it's more about acknowledging the environment of mutual dedication and peer respect necessary to train together safely rather than specifically venerating Helio or your coach or whoever.
Now being some ~100 years and more than one nationality removed from Japan we're seeing a lot more casual westernization, and that's fine. I don't really care one way or the other if a gym has a bowing ritual. "When in Rome," etc.
The "bow to each other as well" thing makes sense when put like that. Bowing *only* to the teacher is weird in a western context. Bowing to the mat is even weirder.
Life doesn't change with the pledge of allegiance after class either. Doesn't mean there's any good reason to do it, or that it inherently has a place in any given leisure activity.
The slap-bump is a way of mutually agreeing (with each other specifically) that the festivities can proceed. It serves a specific function in the game we play, which distinguishes it from bowing, curtseying or reciting any pledges or prayers.
If anybody wants to propose an alternative act of mutual consent I'm all ears.
Did you read the comment I was responding to? Here is the relevant part again:
> And same for the clubs that bow *at the end of class*.
Consent after the fact is not consent.
Exactly, so your comparison to the slap-bump is invalid. The slap-bump serves a specific function.
Respect is treating people decently. Performing some rehearsed choreography is not respect.
I was responding to a comment referring to bowing at the end of class. The examples you gave tend to serve a specific purpose concerning consent *before* sparring.
It’s just a sign of respect between a group of people that are about to beat the crap out of each other. I don’t know why people get so uppity about it. Shit, I give my server a little head-nod bow when they drop my food off at my table.
Bowing is literally just a sign of respect and I’ve never understood why people are so weird about it here. But the pledge of allegiance is absolutely unhinged. Something like 80% of my gym is active or ex military and that still wouldn’t fly here. Your coach is a weirdo.
Absolutely fucked, I would not be cool with doing this. I don’t go to BJJ to get indoctrinated. It would be like praying. Keep that shit out of my sport practice.
Two simple sentences gave you struggle? It's no wonder you can't comprehend what the message in the Pledge, then, or how the Pledge constitutes indoctrination.
Would he make someone on holiday to the US doing a drop in say it lol. I'm from the UK. You guys should still be paying taxes to our King so he can buy more land rovers.
The Pledge is dumb in literally all circumstances but somehow manages to be especially dumb before a martial arts class for an art that came is Brazilian and Japanese
That’s super weird. I told someone from Sweden that I got suspended from school for not standing up and putting my hand on my heart while pledging allegiance to the flag, and they were like… wait… you pledge your allegiance to a flag every morning??? I explained the whole thing to him and he was like, what in the propaganda?? They indoctrinate kids? Yup, and everyone thinks it’s super normal here, too.
If you didn’t know, other countries don’t do that. …none of the other free countries anyway. Our public school system picked up a lot of cues Prussia back in the day, “nation-building”, so it makes sense. Pride in the homeland and all that stuff.
Imagine getting choked out for not pledging allegiance to the flag. …actually, I’m pretty sure it’s happened somewhere before.
You should realize though that swedes dont really have to do things like pledge to the flag because their concept of "being swedish" is both a national identity, and also a racial identity. "Swedes" are a distinct people, with a history going back thousands of years. America has no, and should have no, racial or ethnic identity. Thats the promise of america, because we are a nation of immigrants. This is a key distinction that many europeans dont understand, europeans are correctly, very concerned about nationalism, because in europe nationalism becomes racialism, almost by definition. A swedish nationalist, is not proud to be swedish in terms of his passport, hes proud to be swedish because hes genetically swedish. To a swedish nationalist, a muslim immigrant who gets a swedish passport, he is not swedish, and he will never be swedish. The same is not true for american nationalism. Our nationalism, which we call patriotism, is not inherently racial, it is actually the opposite. This is literally the core of american nationalism, its why the pledge reads, ONE NATION under god, INDIVISBLE, with liberty and justice for all." Its a unifying force, and not a divisive force, and thats the purpose of the pledge and why the pledge was put into classrooms. The pledge was recited in classrooms specifically for the children of immigrants, and gained popularity in the 1920s when you would have entire classrooms made of different immigrant groups. This isnt about right or left, this is something we should all be for.
Wow. What an intelligent and thoughtful response. Thank you for that. Just to be clear, I am looking at this from a philosophical standpoint. I think we agree on many points though. There are a couple things you said that I would like to comment on though.
First off, everything you said about the Swedes, was amazing. It’s definitely a different country than the U.S., with a very different history. The only addendum I would make is that it’s not just Sweden, but most of the free countries don’t pledge allegiance to their flag or country. Again, no other country is quite like the U.S though, so fair point there.
Just as a side note, one of my favorite things about the U.S. is our diversity. It really highlights that people all over the world are the same. Someone from almost every country lives here and they are as American as apple pie. Which proves that most people are simply a product of their country, which is why all countries employ some form a propaganda, for better or worse. If you were adopted by Khabib’s dad and grew up in Dagestan, you’d probably be Muslim and a Communist. …and a great wrestler! Biologically, we are all the same, we are just a product of our governments, and we all think we have the best version of it.
Now, I agree that the pledge of allegiance was important for many immigrants in the 1920’s, but the words were different back then. We didn’t add god to the pledge of allegiance (or the dollar) until the 1950’s. Why is this important? Well, some of that diversity is removed in our current version. So, while it is still vague, it excludes those immigrants who believe in more than one god, or no god at all. While it doesn’t specifically say a Christian god, let’s be real, I don’t think Eisenhower was envisioning a nation of Muslims (for example), when he added god to the pledge of allegiance or the dollar. A little less diverse, a little more divisive.
So, at what point does the freedom we all love get pushed to the side. As I mentioned, I was suspended from school for not standing during the pledge of allegiance, and that’s where it gets tricky. When we do not have the option to opt out of something, or we are punished for something, that requires a pledge of allegiance. That seems like either propaganda, or blind loyalty. Neither of which represents our values as Americans.
Again, part of the “nation-building” we took from Prussia was enacted so we have not only have an educated, law abiding populace, but populace loyal to the country. Which is very important to the government of a nation of immigrants. Which is fair. …but again, in our current iteration, we put god in there. I don’t have time to get into the history of Christianity and colonialism, but it looks like we are going back to prayer in school, so it’s starting to look more like we want to nation-build with a specific group of people.
The pledge of allegiance seems less American, the America that our forefathers envisioned, you know… free, and more like old world Germany rhetoric. That’s why I think it’s weird. I think it’s weird to threaten or punish someone who doesn’t want to partake in your pledge of unwavering loyalty to a country that was founded on the idea that if you don’t like the way things are going, you can change them. It is like prayer in school, but you can’t opt out. Which is fine if that’s what we are going for, I know enough of history to put my hand on my heart, or put my hands together, if comes down to it. That’s not what we, as a country, are saying though. We are saying that we are still a nation of immigrants, that we still have religious freedom, and that we are patriots, and not nationalists. So, we have to say one thing, or another, or else it’s just propaganda. I firmly believe, especially after reading your comment, that the pledge of allegiance played a very important part in this country, at some point in history. In the present day, it just seems weird to me. I think if a person can’t see the contradiction of blind loyalty, and freedom, then they’re drinking the kool-aid and they don’t know it.
Is there anything wrong with reciting the pledge of allegiance with the pride of your country in your heart? Not at all. Is there anything wrong with forcing other people to do it? I think so. I think it’s a weird expectation, especially in this country. You’re right. We don’t have the history of the European countries, but I hope we don’t forget that our forefathers left a European country without religious freedom, without freedom of expression, to create a country that was free.
“The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does.” - Sydney J. Harris
Ehh ill get downvoted to hell because this is reddit, but whatever. Maybe someone who would normally look down on patriotism will take a second look and realize the unique nature it has in america and why its actually a really important and good thing for us. Humans need a tribe, its in our DNA, and i'd much prefer that we indoctrinate ourselves into being part of the american tribe, versus the default which is that im white, and hes black, and shes asian etc.
Bowing has always been weird to me when it comes traditional BJJ schools. The roots of BJJ in Brazil were violent, aggressive and without respect. If you look at the old Gracie Action challenge videos — the Gracies would kick down doors of local martial arts gyms & challenge anyone willing to test their art against jiu jitsu. They injured, embarrassed & bullied many martial artists in their local areas for years. Fake humble guys bowing is weird. Saying the pledge of allegiance before class is even more weird than that… No-gi, submission grappling — that’s as pure as it gets. No bowing. No pledge of allegiance. Just a giant dose of whoopass. Slap, bump, roll. No more, no less. Your gym owner seems to have the early characteristics of a cult leader.
Honestly the only way I wouldn't cancel my membership on the spot is if they let you not participate in it.
If it's mandatory, then I'm out. I don't do cults.
LOL I think that is stupid as fuck.... what is this? public school?
Enjoy pledging allegiance to the US Flag.
Soon you'll be singing that one song that everyone got a boner for after 9/11 and was song at baseball games or some shit...
After that y'all gonna start getting in a circle and eating each other's asses.
It all starts with the pledge....believe me.
I wouldn't be surprised if it's real. MAGA energy is strong in the bjj spots I've tried. A [local bjj spot](https://www.instagram.com/we_the_people_bjj/) recently changed it's name to "We The People". Ngl, I immediately assumed OP goes here 😂
Man, this brought back memories I didn’t know I had. I spent some time as a kid in south Louisiana where my parents had me do karate. We did this before every class.
Sounds like a version of bizzaro woke. It's also a waste of time, not a MA or BJJ tradition and if you are paying maybe a waste of your money. I would find a new gym but to each their own.
You could try taking a knee if you would like to silently protest and don't want to (or can't) change gyms.
Lmfao bruh. Pledge of Allegiance like how we used to recite it as a class in elementary school?? I don’t even think they do that in schools anymore but seeing that in a bjj gym is hilarious. To take it seriously is something out of the office
What the fuck 😂 It's one thing to bow to the Gracies in a GB (I don't mind it, bit ritualistic but takes literally 2 seconds), but the American Pledge of Allegiance in a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu gym? That doesn't even make sense
True American jiujitsu, Keenan or Jake shields run the place?
But I've legit seen gyms that have Bible study before and after certain classes or on certain days so I wouldn't be bothered by a pledge of allegiance
Unless we were in Canadia or France or some other weak country then that would be pretty weird
We are talking about France being weak today, it is the size of Texas compared to the US. You using its role in the revolution as proof it isn't weak is whats irrelevant. Do you need any more help with simple logic or does this clear it up for you?
Don’t mistake your inability to clearly articulate your point with my capacity for logic. How is France weak even today? They’re the only country about to send troops to fight Russia directly, the French Foreign legion is top 5 most capable fighting forces in the world, and is one of only two countries that would stand a snowballs chance in a war against the US. What about the French is weak?
People that own gyms are fucking weirdos.
As someone that owns a gym, I agree.
Thirded.
What kind of moron makes that decision Fourthed
OP trains with Rex Kwan Do 
There’s a quote from history class that always stuck with me “Absolute power corrupts absolutely.” It applies to more than just governments. Sometimes you see business owners of all types just be weirdo control freaks. A lot of strange behavior comes out of a scenario where “I’m in charge and no one can say ‘no,’ or even suggest maybe I’m wrong”
The less power people have the more likely they are to want to use it
Nah, power doesn't corrupt. Power reveals.
I insulted this one gym owner and literally called him weird..... and he still asks me to train there.
I’ve always wanted to have a random person tell a joke to get class started if I ever owned a gym haha
I dropped into Brian Warrens gym once, he had everyone bow there heads and say prayers before and after class, his students sucked, and he was not very good either, wish people would focus on bjj and not weird political or religious bs.
What a dork.
I pledge allegiance to the Gi, Of the United Mats of BJJ, And to the grapplers for which it stands, One dojo, under Helio, Indivisible, with oil checks and porra for all.
Açaí
Oss
and jesus christ
Indivisionable, Absolute
Ossssss
As a no gi enthusiast this is unacceptable.
A😂
Not ending with OSS, 2/10
This is Amazing!
That’s ridiculous
Bowing's pretty normal in spite of r/bjj's weird takes on it but it sounds like your gym's decided they're now a cult. Have fun with that I guess
I mean they're not weird takes. There's nothing about combat-variety sports that inherently makes bowing at another human being any more necessary or worthwhile. We don't do it at our gym, yet everybody likes each other, treats each other well, and the world keeps spinning.
I think any martial art that involves getting put into chokeholds by relative strangers involves a lot of mutual trust and respect. From that point of view, bowing is a normal way of expressing that trust/gratitude for it. It's been years since I've trained but our ritual would look like this: Line up from most experienced to least experienced, bow to the teacher, bow to each other and then do a handshake lineup to thank each other for training if it was the end of class part. We could both agree that there is a form of cult-like behaviour in those rituals but clearly it's different from pledging allegiance to the flag of a country. That just smells like radical nationalism.
I agree with the general sentiment here, so I'm not going to push back too much. Though I would question your suggestion that bowing is a "normal" way of showing respect. At our gym, and in pretty much every other area of life in my part of the world, we show respect by being decent to each other rather than through any particular choreography. Obviously experiences will differ depending on where we live, though.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume neither of us are from Japan or medieval Europe so from that perspective, it is foreign/non natural for us. But clearly BJJ as many other forms of combat sports finds it heritage in Japanese military culture so it isn't a surprising gesture to have. I mean at least half of the people reading this will dress up in a gi and practice techniques that work best on people also dressed in a piece of garment that finds it origin in Japan. It is maybe even more surprising to see it in for instance a Dutch kickboxing gym, often referred to as "thai-boxing" here, yet it also makes sense because a lot of those gyms got founded by guys that trained in Kyokushin-karate. But yeah if you are training in the US, maybe your teacher is from Brazil and all you do is no-gi, then you are 2 migrations away from anything even remotely Japanese so I can imagine it feels super foreign and weird in that regards.
Not many people know about Dutch kickboxing’s roots in Kyokushin Karate. You’re 100% right, Meijiro Gym and Vos Gym, which coached some of the most famous early Dutch kickboxers, were founded by karate experts who mixed boxing, karate, and Thai technique to create the distinct Dutch style. By the way, I think Japanese formalisms are quite common in a lot of Brazilian gyms. Most of my Brazilian coaches have enforced some of the formalities (bowing, oss, lining up, sometimes the meditation, etc), even if the overall vibe of their class is otherwise quite informal. I have also trained with Brazilians that are quite strict and formal. I could be wrong, but I think it might be because a lot of them trained Judo as a kid, and Brazilian Judo classes are pretty traditional with their formalities.
Jiu Jitsu haw it's roots from Japan where bowing is still a very normal and every day practice. Japan is also very ritualistic. Those two things together explain the tradition.
In its context inherited from Japan bowing is a symbol of respect, not worship, akin to a salute, handshake, removing one's hat in someone else's house, or taking a knee when your football coach is giving instructions. It's honestly far less weird than the Pledge of Allegiance for a BJJ class.
I had this conversation recently with a former-military friend who goes to a more old-timey gym where they still do this stuff. He too compared it to saluting in the military. I asked "so you never saluted someone whilst thinking to yourself 'wow this guy is a cunt'?" He got the point after this exchange. Respect is treating people decently, not acting out some rehearsed choreography. I know you weren't defending these performative practices btw, you were just offering some context.
Right, but I don't think there's anything wrong with adopting perfunctory gestures when you're joining a micro-culture like BJJ. A cultural export like martial arts that has a recent and defined historical lineage like this will almost necessarily have some traditions that are different from wherever it happens to be practiced. As others have said, it's more about acknowledging the environment of mutual dedication and peer respect necessary to train together safely rather than specifically venerating Helio or your coach or whoever. Now being some ~100 years and more than one nationality removed from Japan we're seeing a lot more casual westernization, and that's fine. I don't really care one way or the other if a gym has a bowing ritual. "When in Rome," etc.
God forbid we can do something cool and respectful like a slick lil bow
Yeah but have you considered that bowing is gay?
The "bow to each other as well" thing makes sense when put like that. Bowing *only* to the teacher is weird in a western context. Bowing to the mat is even weirder.
And same for the clubs that bow at the end of class. Life doesn't change. But a pledge of allegiance is batty.
Life doesn't change with the pledge of allegiance after class either. Doesn't mean there's any good reason to do it, or that it inherently has a place in any given leisure activity.
Since you enjoy contrarianism, shall we now discuss the slap/bump at the beginning of a match?
The slap-bump is a way of mutually agreeing (with each other specifically) that the festivities can proceed. It serves a specific function in the game we play, which distinguishes it from bowing, curtseying or reciting any pledges or prayers. If anybody wants to propose an alternative act of mutual consent I'm all ears.
How about a secret handshake? Or the bow at the beginning of an ibjjf match?
A mutual ball fondle would be the winner in any poll and we both know it
Since we either train in Japanese pyjamas or tighty shorts, that would be most appropriate.
And the same logic applies to bowing.
Did you read the comment I was responding to? Here is the relevant part again: > And same for the clubs that bow *at the end of class*. Consent after the fact is not consent.
Bowing is not consent. It's a demonstration of respect.
Exactly, so your comparison to the slap-bump is invalid. The slap-bump serves a specific function. Respect is treating people decently. Performing some rehearsed choreography is not respect.
Keep roasting this guy! It‘s weird af nobody should be ‚forced’ to ‚pay respects‘ like that anymore.
It's just the Japanese equivalent of a handshake. Substitute for a fist bump, handshake, whatever.
I was responding to a comment referring to bowing at the end of class. The examples you gave tend to serve a specific purpose concerning consent *before* sparring.
We shake hands at the end of class at my gym too. Unless it's mma sparring, then we fist bump.
It’s just a sign of respect between a group of people that are about to beat the crap out of each other. I don’t know why people get so uppity about it. Shit, I give my server a little head-nod bow when they drop my food off at my table.
Who said bowing was necessary? I said it's normal. Getting that affronted is a weird take unto itself.
The pledge of allegiance is already fuckin weird my guy
Rex Kwon Do
Break the wrist, walk away. Break the wrist, walk away.
Next thing you know the gym will be selling gi’s that are all red white and blue.
Nobody wants a roundhouse to the face with those bad boys on.
American exceptionalists gonna exceptionalize ‘Murica
You're messing with us right? Please...
Clear shitpost and people felled for it smh
No, it's not a joke. I go to the same gym... I know OP I'm now going to request an hour of prayer too!
In six months you'll be back asking if it's weird that you're starting class with an opening prayer in front of the academy's Ten Commandments plaque.
Bowing is literally just a sign of respect and I’ve never understood why people are so weird about it here. But the pledge of allegiance is absolutely unhinged. Something like 80% of my gym is active or ex military and that still wouldn’t fly here. Your coach is a weirdo.
This is literally gayer than having sex with another man
Im not joking I would literally rather have sex with a man than day the pledge of allegiance before training and I'm not even gay
Would it be less gay with a dick in your mouth? Asking for a friend.
Absolutely fucked, I would not be cool with doing this. I don’t go to BJJ to get indoctrinated. It would be like praying. Keep that shit out of my sport practice.
100% agreed. I’d be looking for another gym immediately.
[удалено]
What in the world do you think rote pledges of allegiance to abstract bodies are? Indoctrination is literally the point.
[удалено]
Two simple sentences gave you struggle? It's no wonder you can't comprehend what the message in the Pledge, then, or how the Pledge constitutes indoctrination.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Pledge_of_Allegiance
Ayo, that’s pretty interesting and never really read up on it… I get the god piece, no idea why you’d do it in BJJ class.
AmeriDoTe, right? 
Best of all, worst of none!
I’d leave
Would he make someone on holiday to the US doing a drop in say it lol. I'm from the UK. You guys should still be paying taxes to our King so he can buy more land rovers.
200 of back taxes on that too.
It’s time to tap out of that gym.
I think that's worse than bowing
The Pledge is dumb in literally all circumstances but somehow manages to be especially dumb before a martial arts class for an art that came is Brazilian and Japanese
What if it’s a Keenan affiliate?
Then you gotta sign a pledge to abstain from fluoridated toothpaste
That’s super weird. I told someone from Sweden that I got suspended from school for not standing up and putting my hand on my heart while pledging allegiance to the flag, and they were like… wait… you pledge your allegiance to a flag every morning??? I explained the whole thing to him and he was like, what in the propaganda?? They indoctrinate kids? Yup, and everyone thinks it’s super normal here, too. If you didn’t know, other countries don’t do that. …none of the other free countries anyway. Our public school system picked up a lot of cues Prussia back in the day, “nation-building”, so it makes sense. Pride in the homeland and all that stuff. Imagine getting choked out for not pledging allegiance to the flag. …actually, I’m pretty sure it’s happened somewhere before.
Somebody is on to something.
You joking?
You should realize though that swedes dont really have to do things like pledge to the flag because their concept of "being swedish" is both a national identity, and also a racial identity. "Swedes" are a distinct people, with a history going back thousands of years. America has no, and should have no, racial or ethnic identity. Thats the promise of america, because we are a nation of immigrants. This is a key distinction that many europeans dont understand, europeans are correctly, very concerned about nationalism, because in europe nationalism becomes racialism, almost by definition. A swedish nationalist, is not proud to be swedish in terms of his passport, hes proud to be swedish because hes genetically swedish. To a swedish nationalist, a muslim immigrant who gets a swedish passport, he is not swedish, and he will never be swedish. The same is not true for american nationalism. Our nationalism, which we call patriotism, is not inherently racial, it is actually the opposite. This is literally the core of american nationalism, its why the pledge reads, ONE NATION under god, INDIVISBLE, with liberty and justice for all." Its a unifying force, and not a divisive force, and thats the purpose of the pledge and why the pledge was put into classrooms. The pledge was recited in classrooms specifically for the children of immigrants, and gained popularity in the 1920s when you would have entire classrooms made of different immigrant groups. This isnt about right or left, this is something we should all be for.
You're the gym owner, aren't you?
No lol, I also wouldn’t do that if I owned a gym. But I wouldn’t shit on someone else for doing it
I wouldn't either, specially because I'm not American nor live in USA.
Wow. What an intelligent and thoughtful response. Thank you for that. Just to be clear, I am looking at this from a philosophical standpoint. I think we agree on many points though. There are a couple things you said that I would like to comment on though. First off, everything you said about the Swedes, was amazing. It’s definitely a different country than the U.S., with a very different history. The only addendum I would make is that it’s not just Sweden, but most of the free countries don’t pledge allegiance to their flag or country. Again, no other country is quite like the U.S though, so fair point there. Just as a side note, one of my favorite things about the U.S. is our diversity. It really highlights that people all over the world are the same. Someone from almost every country lives here and they are as American as apple pie. Which proves that most people are simply a product of their country, which is why all countries employ some form a propaganda, for better or worse. If you were adopted by Khabib’s dad and grew up in Dagestan, you’d probably be Muslim and a Communist. …and a great wrestler! Biologically, we are all the same, we are just a product of our governments, and we all think we have the best version of it. Now, I agree that the pledge of allegiance was important for many immigrants in the 1920’s, but the words were different back then. We didn’t add god to the pledge of allegiance (or the dollar) until the 1950’s. Why is this important? Well, some of that diversity is removed in our current version. So, while it is still vague, it excludes those immigrants who believe in more than one god, or no god at all. While it doesn’t specifically say a Christian god, let’s be real, I don’t think Eisenhower was envisioning a nation of Muslims (for example), when he added god to the pledge of allegiance or the dollar. A little less diverse, a little more divisive. So, at what point does the freedom we all love get pushed to the side. As I mentioned, I was suspended from school for not standing during the pledge of allegiance, and that’s where it gets tricky. When we do not have the option to opt out of something, or we are punished for something, that requires a pledge of allegiance. That seems like either propaganda, or blind loyalty. Neither of which represents our values as Americans. Again, part of the “nation-building” we took from Prussia was enacted so we have not only have an educated, law abiding populace, but populace loyal to the country. Which is very important to the government of a nation of immigrants. Which is fair. …but again, in our current iteration, we put god in there. I don’t have time to get into the history of Christianity and colonialism, but it looks like we are going back to prayer in school, so it’s starting to look more like we want to nation-build with a specific group of people. The pledge of allegiance seems less American, the America that our forefathers envisioned, you know… free, and more like old world Germany rhetoric. That’s why I think it’s weird. I think it’s weird to threaten or punish someone who doesn’t want to partake in your pledge of unwavering loyalty to a country that was founded on the idea that if you don’t like the way things are going, you can change them. It is like prayer in school, but you can’t opt out. Which is fine if that’s what we are going for, I know enough of history to put my hand on my heart, or put my hands together, if comes down to it. That’s not what we, as a country, are saying though. We are saying that we are still a nation of immigrants, that we still have religious freedom, and that we are patriots, and not nationalists. So, we have to say one thing, or another, or else it’s just propaganda. I firmly believe, especially after reading your comment, that the pledge of allegiance played a very important part in this country, at some point in history. In the present day, it just seems weird to me. I think if a person can’t see the contradiction of blind loyalty, and freedom, then they’re drinking the kool-aid and they don’t know it. Is there anything wrong with reciting the pledge of allegiance with the pride of your country in your heart? Not at all. Is there anything wrong with forcing other people to do it? I think so. I think it’s a weird expectation, especially in this country. You’re right. We don’t have the history of the European countries, but I hope we don’t forget that our forefathers left a European country without religious freedom, without freedom of expression, to create a country that was free. “The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does.” - Sydney J. Harris
Well said.
Ehh ill get downvoted to hell because this is reddit, but whatever. Maybe someone who would normally look down on patriotism will take a second look and realize the unique nature it has in america and why its actually a really important and good thing for us. Humans need a tribe, its in our DNA, and i'd much prefer that we indoctrinate ourselves into being part of the american tribe, versus the default which is that im white, and hes black, and shes asian etc.
If you think americans are immune to the bad sides of patriotism/nationalism, well, I have bad news for you. They arent
I'm amazed at how this hasn't been a trend. BJJ is full of MAGA dudes. Nerds.
Take a knee instead
To the balls. Every beginning of class.
Wtf. For as much taxes I pay as a gym owner, congress needs to start pledging allegiance to my gym at least once a week.
Sounds better than jogging
Jogging has some practicality at least.
Damn straight, this gas tank isn't built for Gator crawling and wind sprints before a violent hugging session.
It's about as useful TBH (in the BJJ warmup context)
Lmao hell nah, some of yall act like yall in school or something 🤣
It was weird then too
This faux patriotism usually only means one thing nowadays. Cult baby warning. If the bjj is mid tier, you should switch.
We line up and kiss a picture of Eddie bravo while reciting some kinda Aramaic chant
Is it about flat earth?
“WHAT THE FUCK IS A KILOMETER”!!!!! 🇺🇸🦅🦅💥💥🇺🇸🇺🇸
Up next Bible study
That is hella special.
Please no, the sports gay enough.
Make jiu jitsu great again
Bowing has always been weird to me when it comes traditional BJJ schools. The roots of BJJ in Brazil were violent, aggressive and without respect. If you look at the old Gracie Action challenge videos — the Gracies would kick down doors of local martial arts gyms & challenge anyone willing to test their art against jiu jitsu. They injured, embarrassed & bullied many martial artists in their local areas for years. Fake humble guys bowing is weird. Saying the pledge of allegiance before class is even more weird than that… No-gi, submission grappling — that’s as pure as it gets. No bowing. No pledge of allegiance. Just a giant dose of whoopass. Slap, bump, roll. No more, no less. Your gym owner seems to have the early characteristics of a cult leader.
A wise man once said If you bow in Brazil they’ll hit you over the head and take your wallet out of your pocket
our dear Uncle Chael…
Lol what?
Nope
Pass. I’d be out of there. ✌🏻
I’d immediately cancel my membership and never go back, that’s what I think of that.
Bowing is normal. Pledging the Allegiance is stupid.
I would be finding another gym, that’s weird as hell.
That Election season always brings the crazy out in people. Lol. Your instructor still believes in elections.
Tell him to look up Francis Bellamy and the origin of the pledge of allegiance. I bet he stops that nonsense pretty quick.
Oh man. I need to see how going to the Bellamy salute before class would go over.
You should just chant USA USA USA like those clowns do at UFC
I think spending 10-15 years doing nothing but this sport, to build up enough knowledge and experience to run a gym, filters out normal people.
No thanks. Didn't say it in school not saying it now.
Go a step further, light a sparkler next time for added flare and patriotism
I will never pledge my allegiance to the U.S
I know I will get heat from people in this sub (and all my sympathies go to the maga folks), but hell, yeah!
Reddit BJJ is rife with MAGA creeps. One time they made me wear a noose and doused me in bleach while screaming "This is MAGA country! " True story.
Wow, this is extremely dangerous to our democracy
Does he stand before you all and say, "Acknowledge me!"?
Honestly the only way I wouldn't cancel my membership on the spot is if they let you not participate in it. If it's mandatory, then I'm out. I don't do cults.
LOL I think that is stupid as fuck.... what is this? public school? Enjoy pledging allegiance to the US Flag. Soon you'll be singing that one song that everyone got a boner for after 9/11 and was song at baseball games or some shit... After that y'all gonna start getting in a circle and eating each other's asses. It all starts with the pledge....believe me.
Great shitpost 😂
Surely this is a troll 😂😂😂
I wouldn't be surprised if it's real. MAGA energy is strong in the bjj spots I've tried. A [local bjj spot](https://www.instagram.com/we_the_people_bjj/) recently changed it's name to "We The People". Ngl, I immediately assumed OP goes here 😂
That's disgraceful 😂😂😂
America is crazy 😂😂
Not wrong, bro. It's still a good place imo, but it has it's problems lol.
One nation, indivisible. 🙃
I'm a fan of the pledge but we didn't do during hockey because the sports from another fucking country. Like bjj...
I would leave.
What state is your gym in?
Texas
I am in Oklahoma and my instructor does the same
Wth. That’s too weird. And I bet that’s gonna put off potential future customers.
When I was in 5th grade my teacher made us, one at a time, stand in front of the class and say “penis and vagina” before sex Ed.
Wow that's crazy
Man, this brought back memories I didn’t know I had. I spent some time as a kid in south Louisiana where my parents had me do karate. We did this before every class.
Sounds like a version of bizzaro woke. It's also a waste of time, not a MA or BJJ tradition and if you are paying maybe a waste of your money. I would find a new gym but to each their own. You could try taking a knee if you would like to silently protest and don't want to (or can't) change gyms.
The majority of “Founding Fathers” would find the pledge so bizarre. Especially the ones who wrote everything.
Yeaaaaaah.. don’t like that
Nah I don’t believe you
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
This is a HARD no from me. I'd be looking for a new gym that same day.
As a former Marine... this us fucking stupid
i think you're lying
I did that in elementary school.
Only cool if the school is Gracie Allegiance. "We pledge allegiance to lord Clark, of the United States of omoplata"
Ewww
I’d leave
Lmfao bruh. Pledge of Allegiance like how we used to recite it as a class in elementary school?? I don’t even think they do that in schools anymore but seeing that in a bjj gym is hilarious. To take it seriously is something out of the office
Yikes
I love America but this is weird. Maybe he is doing it cause it’s near 4th of July?
I don’t even know the pledge of allegiance. Except the part where you say “I pledge allegiance…”
He owns the gym. Can run it however he likes. Don’t cry to Reddit.
No chance bro 😂😂
Shitpost. Please say this is a shitpost. For the love of god say this is a shitpost.
What the fuck 😂 It's one thing to bow to the Gracies in a GB (I don't mind it, bit ritualistic but takes literally 2 seconds), but the American Pledge of Allegiance in a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu gym? That doesn't even make sense
Maybe it’s an “American folkstyle submission grappling” gym.
I would be late to class everyday.
I will pledge if they hold up the famous picture of Malcolm X holding a rifle with a Photoshop BJJ GI on.
I pledge allegiance to master Helio
Oh I'm sorry I thought this was America
Didn’t know your coach is Don Frye. Atleast it’s better than diddling kids
Guilting people to stay at a McDojo lol
We have always said the pledge and are a gym known for supporting troops and first responders. I love it.
True American jiujitsu, Keenan or Jake shields run the place? But I've legit seen gyms that have Bible study before and after certain classes or on certain days so I wouldn't be bothered by a pledge of allegiance Unless we were in Canadia or France or some other weak country then that would be pretty weird
Nah, it's fucken weird either way
Some other weak country like France or Canada? America wouldn’t be an independent nation if it weren’t for France.
that was hundreds of years ago
The founding of America was hundreds of years ago too, is that irrelevant now too?
We are talking about France being weak today, it is the size of Texas compared to the US. You using its role in the revolution as proof it isn't weak is whats irrelevant. Do you need any more help with simple logic or does this clear it up for you?
Don’t mistake your inability to clearly articulate your point with my capacity for logic. How is France weak even today? They’re the only country about to send troops to fight Russia directly, the French Foreign legion is top 5 most capable fighting forces in the world, and is one of only two countries that would stand a snowballs chance in a war against the US. What about the French is weak?
Is Keenan really like that? He always comes across as pretty chilled out. I know Jake Jake Shields is a nutter though.