If I heard "it's not bjj, it's submission wrestling!" then I would infer that now I can win by pinning too.
But since I don't know any specific "submission wrestling" rulesets, I would ask what are the rules.
I’ve dropped in randomly 2-3 catch schools just location convenience when traveling. Took me 1-2 rounds figuring out their awkward grips and attacks. They had a couple of real athletic guys but otherwise wasn’t much resistance to do what i wanted. Cool crowd though, would do it again for that reason
I use submission wrestling to describe what I teach because it's a nice generic sounding name that is descriptive enough that you know what it is. It's a Mish mash of Catch, BJJ, Sambo, Freestyle, Greco-Roman and no gi judo with a heavy emphasis on takedowns and maintaining dominant position. I don't want to call it catch because that implies a specific rule set and it isn't BJJ because I have been doing some of this stuff since before I knew BJJ was a thing in the mid 90s. Submission wrestling is just easiest.
If I recall correctly, the earliest ADCCs were promoted as "Submission Wrestling" competitions (2005 and earlier), then later promoted as "Submission Fighting" (2007 and later).
The term "Submission Grappling" doesn't seem to have been officially used by ADCC, but it appears in the titles of instructional DVDs by Mario Sperry and Marcelo Garcia.
My feeling is that all these terms are essentially equivalent.
I just think everyone is dumb for assuming each other knew what was ok. I'd only call you an asshole if you ripped the crank. Else, maybe just a bad communicator.
I never neck crank anyone. It's practice.
If I want to practice something like that, I get the position and let go.
After 12 years and me being 48, you realize that longevity is key if you want to continue doing what you love.
I get the other side of things, but it better be crystal clear what is being agreed to.
I'm trying to remember the last time I saw a slow and controlled neck crank. Everyone I've seen has been a desperate attempt at immediately ripping someone's head off.
I feel the same. If you're getting neck cranked regularly, it's just unnecessary stress on the neck that will add up over time. An exception for me is if they tuck their chin to defend a rnc.
Can opener for closed guard. Sometimes you miss a front headlock choke but the neck crank is still there. Sometimes they have no neck to even get the rnc around but the chin is still there to turn.
Anacondas and D'Arce chokes hang out in neck crank territory too, especially when someone fails to sink the choke but continues through with the technique. Sometimes I think that's the anaconda choke's primary mechanism rather than the choke itself
So when you lock a rnc from the back or the side, you can choose to come across the chin and pull sideways, cranking the neck sideways.
You can also crank from a Gallatine, front headlock, guard, etc. You can even "crank" someone's neck while stacking them.
Basically any time your applying a choke, can't get to the arteries or under the neck, and you force the neck into a bad position, sideways, or just squeezing causing the joints of the spine to feel pressure.
Neck cranks are one of those things you literally don't need to practice at all so there's no reason to do it during rolls. If you're cranking someone's neck you're only doing it because you couldn't get a clean submission anyway so whats the point unless it's a comp that allow neck cranks to ever do it? Just seems like a dick move.
Yeah, it is, because it's primarily done when going for a strangle that doesn't work out so you just muscle the fuck out of the neck and crank it in one direction. There's almost no actual technique to it and in sparring at best it's going to get a tap with guaranteed neck pain for the rest of the week for the guy you got a tap on while sparring. It's a dick move.
I've often read that a good d'arce or anaconda has some amount of neck crank involved. A good guillotine will stretch the neck in some ways as you compress. Stacking out of a triangle attempt or pressure passing guard can all have neck cranking feelings.
I guess what I'm saying is that as long as your partner doesn't slam that shit on and you have time to tap, then it's ok.
Generally a neck crank isn't classified as a strangle that also cranks on the neck a bit. And a really good guillotine doesn't do much to stretch the neck honestly, and several variations don't crank the neck at all when done really well (high wrist guillotine for example). Like, I get that a D'arce is probably going to put some crank pressure on the neck, but if you're getting a tap from that and not the strangle your D'arce is dog shit.
There are moves that are pure crank and no submission at all. I'm talking about things like the can opener. I don't think it's possible to choke somebody with this submission but it's definitely a crank.
There's also a crank from the crucifix position too for example. There again, no choke, just torsion on the cervicales.
And regarding the choke/crank situation, a tap is a tap. I don't care if it's a choke or a crank.
Submission wrestling sounds a lot more like a ADCC ruleset in which neck cranking is allowed.
You’d only be an asshole if you keep doing it when frowned upon by the gym culture you’re in.
I assumed it would be more like catch wrestling because I don't fully know what it means, I do in the context of being someone who is a practitioner, but is it no gi? I'm not sure, because no gi does seem to have a general idea of what is or isn't allowed so I wouldn't neck crank in "Bjj no gi" or "Gi Bjj" because I'm pretty sure with the exception of one or two rule sets, it's illegal in every other rule set but since this was called "submission wrestling" I assumed okay, so it's not just Bjj, and I see Bjj as one form of submission grappling, catch wrestling would be another, and Judo would be another and sambo is a sort of cross in between them, and my mind went to it being catch style where pretty much every sub except a few are allowed, and he did say it's more in an mma context so I thought okay so it's not Bjj, but apparently it still is? I'll just assume it's Bjj from now on unless the rules say otherwise.
If you go to grappling industries for example, which is not a crazy pro only tournament, you can heel hook and neck/ spine crank I believe in nogi all levels as long as you're adult. Also NAGA. IBJJF is typically the most restrictive and worst ruleset. Usually favored by gi only competitors. There are other rules as well.
I mean I wouldn’t make a habit out neck cranking people in class unless you wanted to become “That Guy” but you didn’t neck crank a fresh white belt, you neck cranked another purple belt. You can’t not defend things cause you don’t think someone will do it. Coach or whatever he is overreacted.
Unless it is competition training, don’t do it in normal training. Ok once or twice to warn people that it can happen, but don’t make it a habit. Otherwise you’re a jerk. Regardless if it is called grappling, wrestling, or bjj - take care of your training partners or no one will want to train with you.
I would have to say there should have been more of a discussion at the beginning regarding the ruleset. I would think you and the instructor could have gone more into depth, with him explaining his expectations of allowable techniques, and you asking for clarifications.
I’m in my mid 30’s and there’s a teenager where I go who is a great kid but he does it all the time. I finally just started tapping every time I feel in danger of even being in the position. It’s nice being able to drive, work and pick up my daughter without being in pain.
As always, just ask before rolls "Hey we doing this no holds barred, catch wrestling style?"
Assuming things without clarity is what causes a big chunk of arguments between people.
"no holds barred", lol :D Im almost certain this is an ego issue since you are both purple belts, and the coach didnt like that you got the better of him. As many others have stated, just tap .. whats the problem? unless you completely surprised him with a move that you ripped in 0,5 seconds... but I doubt it.
I agree, I must be a real asshole because I have never had this discussion in an actual gym and have been mauled plenty of times, just tap. Maybe even seek the guy out, roll him as much as possible and tap a few more times until you figure out how to survive that type of pressure.
What’s the difference between a neck crank and an armbar? I tap so I don’t hurt my arm. Why can’t he tap to not hurt his neck? I tap to neck cranks all the time
If you’re applying the crank at lightning speed, that’s different. But that goes for all submissions in training
Ye exactly if you’re rolling you should not be trying to hold out and tank their submission if they have you in a sub and they have it on just tap I don’t get the guys who clearly have no way out try to push through the sub and end up injuring themselves as long as you are doing the sub in a controlled manner everything is fine
They were rolling, right? Not competing? He's the asshole. Neck cranks aren't real anyway. They just injure your training partners and make them hate you.
If you say "we're rolling within this style" and then someone hits a technique that is allowed in that style then that's on you.
If I said "let's do ADCC rounds" to a white belt and they heel hook me, I don't get to complain that heel hooks aren't legal for them in IBJJF rules.
I'm just happy I don't train with jerks like you anymore. Neck cranks are always legal in the gym... and they are always a dick move. If we are at NAGA... crank away.
I'm a jerk for saying if you've agreed to a ruleset all techniques in that ruleset are ok?
I'm sure if we meet on the mat and slap bumped we'd have a fun roll, provided I didn't overstep whatever arbitrary boundaries you've imposed of course.
If you are grappling for MMA, neck cranks are on the table as far as I'm concerned. You should be safe and gradually increase the pressure, the same as you do for most locks when training. That's just good partner etiquette.
Def not the asshole then
He had the ability to tap at any point and could have done so then calmly explained that the “submission wrestling” focus didn’t mean no holds barred and continued
Honestly, sounds like a fragile ego who didn’t like that you tapped him to me
I go to an MMA gym. Before most rolls I just go “what rule set?” Some people are training MMA, some ibjjf and some adcc. If the rule set allows it, I’m doing neck cranks and no I’m not the ass hole. I dont think you’re the asshole. But people need to chill sometimes.
If its catch, neck cranks are part of the game. Yes they suck but they are fair game. Its like when I do nogi. I always make sure to ask if they are ok with heel hooks. If they say no then I dont do them. If they say theyre ok with them and I do it and their knee gets messed up well thats their fault.
I'm only gonna say esh because it's training, not competition, and neck cranks can mess you up for days. I won't neck crank someone who is supposed to be a partner of mine. Even if I lock it in, I'm not gonna crank. I'll let them know it's there, then look for a proper submission.
Other dude sucks because you can't expect everyone to know the rules when you go changing shit around. You joined for BJJ, not submission wrestling.
While I feel that you shouldn't necessarily be hunting the neck crank in this situation, I think you're fine. He specifically said that this session was going to be "submission wrestling" oriented, and last I checked, neck cranks were legal in submission wrestling. It just sounds like sour grapes that after he got neck cranked, he suddenly starts saying how that's not legal in BJJ.
You're not actually doing MMA if he can't punch you so chill
Besides there are still rules in MMA and submission wrestling
And who cares about the name all you have to do is ask the coach.
Nobody trains MMA by just doing everything legal under the rules during every training session unless your coaches are idiots, you limit things to reduce injury
This is just a basic issue of making assumptions and not communicating, from the coach and the op
As long as you applied it slowly and allowed time to tap it’s fine imo. No different than any other sub.
This sport, and reddit in particular, is absolutely filled with crybabies so i’d just ignore those people.
It totally matters intention and how it was applied. I do asshole submissions all the time but I never put them on to a point that someone is ever upset. Neck cranks fucking hurt, and not just in the moment but for days after. You should never put that on quickly or hard in training in my opinion. Now, slowly working towards one to make someone move is a different thing.
I’m not a fan of cranks, I refuse to do them, but don’t harbor any ill will for those who do them. Especially since the neck is such a sensitive and delicate area wouldn’t want to give anyone a permanent injury. My coach had to get surgery on some of those upper vertebras from an off roll, never know what injuries your training partners have, that can be exacerbated by a crank. Had a training partner that would go for Ezekiel chokes, but mostly consisted of punching his fist in your throat, one time I held out because it wasn’t a choke, won’t do that again thought my trachea was collapsed, could barley swallow for a week. 😪 New moto if it hurts tap. At the end of the day 99% of us are hobbits even though we may not think it, so chill. 🤷🏻♂️
- [The nastiest way to open the closed guard](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq4G9vgkS0Y)
- [Top 10 neck cranks- how to get instantly DQ’d from a BJJ tournament](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilFVHTgYQs4)
- [The lost neck cranks and spine locks of Judo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7S5iTrFACM)
Are neck cranks just for causing pain? I haven't had to deal with them but maybe two times, but I've seen guys just suck it up and not tap the whole time.
Ehh what? In what universe is neck cranks not allowed? Just increase pressure slowly and give them time to tap. Only thing banned in my school is jumping attacks and jumping closed guard, jumping scissor sweep etc.
NTA, we have submission grappling classes and neck cranks are a big part of catch wrestling.
Plus, neck cranks are only illegal under some rulesets, every sub only event I've taken part in was fine with them.
Are you retarded?? Yes, you’re the asshole. You’ve presented the story in a way that leads us to believe you were rolling with the intent to win the roll at all costs, even if that means injuring your training partner. You probably fucked his neck up for a day or two.
In case you really are retarded, your training partners are your friends, and your friends probably won’t stay friends with you long if after every roll with you they can’t check their blind spots on their drive home, all because you roll like an asshole.
Go on YouTube, watch how Gordon rolls with his training partners. Use that as your template for rolling with training partners.
>Are you retarded?? Yes, you’re the asshole. You’ve presented the story in a way that leads us to believe you were rolling with the intent to win the roll at all costs, even if that means injuring your training partner. You probably fucked his neck up for a day or two.
Every roll is to win. No one goes into a roll to lose. I also didn't go there thinking I'll neck crank but the opportunity came from it. I also didn't rip it on and his neck was fine.
I once rolled with a hobbyist black belt and it seemed like the only thing he could catch me with. Which was bizarre to me. It’s one of those things that is frowned upon and I would say if it’s the main tool in your box I’d be annoyed
neck cranks are allowed in a number of BJJ rulesets.
However they are obviously a delicate matter. You could very well be the asshole depending on how you applied the crank.
I don’t know what you mean my neck crank in this case. Was it just a rear naked across the jaw? Was it a twister? Did you just grab from front headlock and try to rip it off?
Regardless, ‘submission wrestling’ doesn’t in any way entail ‘no holds barred’. You made that leap yourself. That said, if your head coach is a purple belt he probably has next to fuck all understanding of what he’s talking about, and has contributed to the miscommunication because of it.
In general, are you a dick? I’d say yes. Cranking necks just because you can then humble bragging about it is fucking pathetic, no matter the rules. You’re training, not competing in some weird sambo or catch promotion.
>Did you just grab from front headlock and try to rip it off?
From front head lock but I did it very slowly.
>That said, if your head coach is a purple belt he probably has next to fuck all understanding of what he’s talking about, and has contributed to the miscommunication because of it.
Nah not a head coach, just one of the coaches who has just started teaching a new class. At first it was no gi bjj ran by a black belt, but he moved away due to work so they called it submission grappling.
>Cranking necks just because you can then humble bragging about it is fucking pathetic, no matter the rules. You’re training, not competing in some weird sambo or catch promotion.
I don't really agree, I think ripping it on is absolutely unacceptable but a slow and controlled submission which gives plenty of time for someone to tap is fine. I wouldn't do it to a beginner but someone who is a purple belt who teaches "submission wrestling" which I take to mean all subs should not be against neck cranks, it's a legit submission.
I agree with OP. Everyone has the ability to tap as soon as they want. This is especially true when you, personally, change the rules to some amorphous set. Tap, then explain. There’s no room for your own ego when you’re teaching.
But I also agree that I’d never neck crank anyone. That said, I would tap immediately to a neck crank attempt.
Gotta side with your coach here. Yep, you were a bit of an asshole here OP. It’s not the worst thing in the world or anything, but I’d probably be pissed if one of our guys were trying to neck crank me for the sake of it.
Presumably by being more MMA focused he just meant he’d be focusing on stuff that is more applicable when strikes are involved - less butt scooting or sitting in bottom half guard.
I wouldn't have just assumed the rules are different. Bit wild to do that without asking, mate.
This is just the new 'cool' thing to call it. And it does make sense with stuff like ADCC, where it's supposed to not just be BJJ people.
As someone who has been neck cranked during training and basically paralyzed from pain for the next few days, in my opinion yes you are an asshole. It is not allowed in most Bjj rule sets but regardless it’s still during a training session where no championships are being won. what did you gain from hurting your training partner? absolutely nothing. Rolling with someone takes trust and communication
Your a d for cranking. He’s a d for not tapping lmao
Bro lbh
He knew his shit was being cranked and didn’t tap. Even me as a spazzy blue belt. When someone begins to crank in practice, I tap. It’s just practice bro. That’s how you get hurt.
Also, people that r cranking, wtf. Nah but, if u slow down, give them enough time to tap. Then I can’t be mad. Even if u did crank.
So hey, maybe slow it down a little.
I apply it slowly and if it looks like it can't go any further, I'll let go. I've done the same with arm bars, some people just don't tap but I'm not going to break someone in training so I'll just give it up and go to something else
If I heard "it's not bjj, it's submission wrestling!" then I would infer that now I can win by pinning too. But since I don't know any specific "submission wrestling" rulesets, I would ask what are the rules.
“Submission wrestling” is what I’ve occasionally heard Catch Wrestling called, which is funny in context here cause Catch loves neck cranks
They love all kinds of cranks. If it's niche, Catch is claiming they invented it.
Actually catch wrestling invented the term niche.
Cache wrestling
They invented that too
You ever trained at Catch school? The entire room looks the same bald, beard and sleeve tattoos.
I know a few guys from Erik Paulsons school as well
Erik Paulson is a gift from god
I trained at a csw affiliate for a month or so. They move weird but damn if it wasn't effective.
I’ve dropped in randomly 2-3 catch schools just location convenience when traveling. Took me 1-2 rounds figuring out their awkward grips and attacks. They had a couple of real athletic guys but otherwise wasn’t much resistance to do what i wanted. Cool crowd though, would do it again for that reason
Should add that the guy also had a legit black belt in bjj too. Good crowd. Fun rolls.
BJJ is based off judo and catch wrestling
Should of hit a grovit.
It was a grovit
lol if he used a grovit on that coach, he’d get a 2 week suspension from “Submission Wrestling” class
I use submission wrestling to describe what I teach because it's a nice generic sounding name that is descriptive enough that you know what it is. It's a Mish mash of Catch, BJJ, Sambo, Freestyle, Greco-Roman and no gi judo with a heavy emphasis on takedowns and maintaining dominant position. I don't want to call it catch because that implies a specific rule set and it isn't BJJ because I have been doing some of this stuff since before I knew BJJ was a thing in the mid 90s. Submission wrestling is just easiest.
If I recall correctly, the earliest ADCCs were promoted as "Submission Wrestling" competitions (2005 and earlier), then later promoted as "Submission Fighting" (2007 and later). The term "Submission Grappling" doesn't seem to have been officially used by ADCC, but it appears in the titles of instructional DVDs by Mario Sperry and Marcelo Garcia. My feeling is that all these terms are essentially equivalent.
Submission wrestling mostly means ADCC rules grappling where I live.
I just think everyone is dumb for assuming each other knew what was ok. I'd only call you an asshole if you ripped the crank. Else, maybe just a bad communicator.
I never neck crank anyone. It's practice. If I want to practice something like that, I get the position and let go. After 12 years and me being 48, you realize that longevity is key if you want to continue doing what you love. I get the other side of things, but it better be crystal clear what is being agreed to.
Neck cranks are fine if applied in a slow controlled manner. Same as literally every other sub.
Meh, they never seem to be that way though.
I'm trying to remember the last time I saw a slow and controlled neck crank. Everyone I've seen has been a desperate attempt at immediately ripping someone's head off.
I feel the same. If you're getting neck cranked regularly, it's just unnecessary stress on the neck that will add up over time. An exception for me is if they tuck their chin to defend a rnc.
When else would someone neck crank besides to attack a tucked chin that denies a rnc?
Can opener for closed guard. Sometimes you miss a front headlock choke but the neck crank is still there. Sometimes they have no neck to even get the rnc around but the chin is still there to turn.
Anacondas and D'Arce chokes hang out in neck crank territory too, especially when someone fails to sink the choke but continues through with the technique. Sometimes I think that's the anaconda choke's primary mechanism rather than the choke itself
So when you lock a rnc from the back or the side, you can choose to come across the chin and pull sideways, cranking the neck sideways. You can also crank from a Gallatine, front headlock, guard, etc. You can even "crank" someone's neck while stacking them. Basically any time your applying a choke, can't get to the arteries or under the neck, and you force the neck into a bad position, sideways, or just squeezing causing the joints of the spine to feel pressure.
This is the way
Neck cranks are one of those things you literally don't need to practice at all so there's no reason to do it during rolls. If you're cranking someone's neck you're only doing it because you couldn't get a clean submission anyway so whats the point unless it's a comp that allow neck cranks to ever do it? Just seems like a dick move.
Idk where you’re getting the idea that there’s no technique involved in neck cranks. There absolutely is.
If something goes wrong in an armbar the long term consequences are low. The exact opposite is true for a crank.
The technique is to crank the fucking neck because you can't get a proper strangle. Stop acting like your bad technique is good technique.
I mean...is it bad technique? We imitate the breaking of arms, legs, and spine...what makes the cervical spine different?
Yeah, it is, because it's primarily done when going for a strangle that doesn't work out so you just muscle the fuck out of the neck and crank it in one direction. There's almost no actual technique to it and in sparring at best it's going to get a tap with guaranteed neck pain for the rest of the week for the guy you got a tap on while sparring. It's a dick move.
I've often read that a good d'arce or anaconda has some amount of neck crank involved. A good guillotine will stretch the neck in some ways as you compress. Stacking out of a triangle attempt or pressure passing guard can all have neck cranking feelings. I guess what I'm saying is that as long as your partner doesn't slam that shit on and you have time to tap, then it's ok.
Generally a neck crank isn't classified as a strangle that also cranks on the neck a bit. And a really good guillotine doesn't do much to stretch the neck honestly, and several variations don't crank the neck at all when done really well (high wrist guillotine for example). Like, I get that a D'arce is probably going to put some crank pressure on the neck, but if you're getting a tap from that and not the strangle your D'arce is dog shit.
In my mind, we grappled, and I put you in a position where you had to tap or suffer significant damage.
There are moves that are pure crank and no submission at all. I'm talking about things like the can opener. I don't think it's possible to choke somebody with this submission but it's definitely a crank. There's also a crank from the crucifix position too for example. There again, no choke, just torsion on the cervicales. And regarding the choke/crank situation, a tap is a tap. I don't care if it's a choke or a crank.
Submission wrestling sounds a lot more like a ADCC ruleset in which neck cranking is allowed. You’d only be an asshole if you keep doing it when frowned upon by the gym culture you’re in.
He could have just as easily tapped, clarified the “rules” and gone back to rolling.
I take submission wrestling to be just another name for nogi.
I assumed it would be more like catch wrestling because I don't fully know what it means, I do in the context of being someone who is a practitioner, but is it no gi? I'm not sure, because no gi does seem to have a general idea of what is or isn't allowed so I wouldn't neck crank in "Bjj no gi" or "Gi Bjj" because I'm pretty sure with the exception of one or two rule sets, it's illegal in every other rule set but since this was called "submission wrestling" I assumed okay, so it's not just Bjj, and I see Bjj as one form of submission grappling, catch wrestling would be another, and Judo would be another and sambo is a sort of cross in between them, and my mind went to it being catch style where pretty much every sub except a few are allowed, and he did say it's more in an mma context so I thought okay so it's not Bjj, but apparently it still is? I'll just assume it's Bjj from now on unless the rules say otherwise.
Really? So you'd assume IBJJF rules? When I hear submission wrestling I think of catch wrestling
Ibjjf aren't the only nogi rules
What other rulesets are out there? I was under the impression IBJJF was the big one. Rather than downvote me help inform me if you have a moment.
If you go to grappling industries for example, which is not a crazy pro only tournament, you can heel hook and neck/ spine crank I believe in nogi all levels as long as you're adult. Also NAGA. IBJJF is typically the most restrictive and worst ruleset. Usually favored by gi only competitors. There are other rules as well.
Huh. Did not know there were so many and they varied so wildly. Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it.
I assume "submission grappling" to mean no-gi BJJ or ADCC rules and "submission wrestling" to mean catch wrestling rules.
I mean I wouldn’t make a habit out neck cranking people in class unless you wanted to become “That Guy” but you didn’t neck crank a fresh white belt, you neck cranked another purple belt. You can’t not defend things cause you don’t think someone will do it. Coach or whatever he is overreacted.
Unless it is competition training, don’t do it in normal training. Ok once or twice to warn people that it can happen, but don’t make it a habit. Otherwise you’re a jerk. Regardless if it is called grappling, wrestling, or bjj - take care of your training partners or no one will want to train with you.
Even if it is comp training, what tournaments allow cranks? 🤷🏻♂️
Comp training is full porrada. Makes the competition easier.
I would have to say there should have been more of a discussion at the beginning regarding the ruleset. I would think you and the instructor could have gone more into depth, with him explaining his expectations of allowable techniques, and you asking for clarifications.
He said “more mma, less bjj”, so no, you are not an asshole.
I’m in my mid 30’s and there’s a teenager where I go who is a great kid but he does it all the time. I finally just started tapping every time I feel in danger of even being in the position. It’s nice being able to drive, work and pick up my daughter without being in pain.
As always, just ask before rolls "Hey we doing this no holds barred, catch wrestling style?" Assuming things without clarity is what causes a big chunk of arguments between people.
"no holds barred", lol :D Im almost certain this is an ego issue since you are both purple belts, and the coach didnt like that you got the better of him. As many others have stated, just tap .. whats the problem? unless you completely surprised him with a move that you ripped in 0,5 seconds... but I doubt it.
I agree, I must be a real asshole because I have never had this discussion in an actual gym and have been mauled plenty of times, just tap. Maybe even seek the guy out, roll him as much as possible and tap a few more times until you figure out how to survive that type of pressure.
What’s the difference between a neck crank and an armbar? I tap so I don’t hurt my arm. Why can’t he tap to not hurt his neck? I tap to neck cranks all the time If you’re applying the crank at lightning speed, that’s different. But that goes for all submissions in training
That's how I feel. No dick moves, only dick speeds.
Ye exactly if you’re rolling you should not be trying to hold out and tank their submission if they have you in a sub and they have it on just tap I don’t get the guys who clearly have no way out try to push through the sub and end up injuring themselves as long as you are doing the sub in a controlled manner everything is fine
Just don't neck crank your training partners man. I mean... yes you are the asshole. Rules or not. What's the purpose?
I hate being neck cranked so I don’t do it to others
Don't you hate being choked?
Can’t say I love it but it rarely has any lingering effects beyond that moment in time. Neck cranks have given me discomfort for weeks after
He wanted to win practice. It was all on the line.
They were rolling within the context given by the coach, who then decided that it wasn't what they meant.
They were rolling, right? Not competing? He's the asshole. Neck cranks aren't real anyway. They just injure your training partners and make them hate you.
If you say "we're rolling within this style" and then someone hits a technique that is allowed in that style then that's on you. If I said "let's do ADCC rounds" to a white belt and they heel hook me, I don't get to complain that heel hooks aren't legal for them in IBJJF rules.
Ruleset is completely separate from being an asshole in training.
That's weird, because you seem to be conflating the two.
I'm just happy I don't train with jerks like you anymore. Neck cranks are always legal in the gym... and they are always a dick move. If we are at NAGA... crank away.
I'm a jerk for saying if you've agreed to a ruleset all techniques in that ruleset are ok? I'm sure if we meet on the mat and slap bumped we'd have a fun roll, provided I didn't overstep whatever arbitrary boundaries you've imposed of course.
Just learn some real submissions dude. Don't be a baby about it.
The funny thing is I don't use cranks, but because your stance is illogical you want it to be about that.
That’s a lotta stripes
Bros just seen the stripes and was fascinated don’t even care about the argument 😂😂
Most people are there for the hobby. Don't injure people
Neck cranks are legit submissions. Just don’t apply them too fast when training and that’s it.
Ye exactly some people can’t see the line between rolling and fighting and those are the people who always complain whenever they get injured
If you are grappling for MMA, neck cranks are on the table as far as I'm concerned. You should be safe and gradually increase the pressure, the same as you do for most locks when training. That's just good partner etiquette.
Tap is a tap
As always the first question is: how fast did you apply the crank?
Slow and controlled but he didn't like that I used it
Def not the asshole then He had the ability to tap at any point and could have done so then calmly explained that the “submission wrestling” focus didn’t mean no holds barred and continued Honestly, sounds like a fragile ego who didn’t like that you tapped him to me
You can definitely neck crank in nogi in many rulesets. In mma, absolutely. Your coach is a sore loser
Jiujitsu has become so saturated with sissies. If a move is “ illegal “ then it works really well. Your instructor is a bitch. Neck crank him again
I’d always confirm the rules first.
I go to an MMA gym. Before most rolls I just go “what rule set?” Some people are training MMA, some ibjjf and some adcc. If the rule set allows it, I’m doing neck cranks and no I’m not the ass hole. I dont think you’re the asshole. But people need to chill sometimes.
Neck cranks are legit subs in mma. He told you it was mma based grappling. He’s a bitch.
So you mean you got him in something that hurt and his ego was too frail to acknowledge it and tap? That's a him problem.
Neck cranks are allowed in mma though?
Yep. I've never seen many neck crank submissions, though.
Better to be an asshole neckcranking then a neck cranker getting his ass holed.
If its catch, neck cranks are part of the game. Yes they suck but they are fair game. Its like when I do nogi. I always make sure to ask if they are ok with heel hooks. If they say no then I dont do them. If they say theyre ok with them and I do it and their knee gets messed up well thats their fault.
I'm only gonna say esh because it's training, not competition, and neck cranks can mess you up for days. I won't neck crank someone who is supposed to be a partner of mine. Even if I lock it in, I'm not gonna crank. I'll let them know it's there, then look for a proper submission. Other dude sucks because you can't expect everyone to know the rules when you go changing shit around. You joined for BJJ, not submission wrestling.
While I feel that you shouldn't necessarily be hunting the neck crank in this situation, I think you're fine. He specifically said that this session was going to be "submission wrestling" oriented, and last I checked, neck cranks were legal in submission wrestling. It just sounds like sour grapes that after he got neck cranked, he suddenly starts saying how that's not legal in BJJ.
Crank that nerds neck. He was just mad you caught him and tried to change his own rules after the fact.
if he didn't like the neck cranks he should have tapped earlier, imo
You're not actually doing MMA if he can't punch you so chill Besides there are still rules in MMA and submission wrestling And who cares about the name all you have to do is ask the coach.
> Besides there are still rules in MMA and submission wrestling And neck cranks are allowed in both.
Nobody trains MMA by just doing everything legal under the rules during every training session unless your coaches are idiots, you limit things to reduce injury This is just a basic issue of making assumptions and not communicating, from the coach and the op
As long as you applied it slowly and allowed time to tap it’s fine imo. No different than any other sub. This sport, and reddit in particular, is absolutely filled with crybabies so i’d just ignore those people.
It totally matters intention and how it was applied. I do asshole submissions all the time but I never put them on to a point that someone is ever upset. Neck cranks fucking hurt, and not just in the moment but for days after. You should never put that on quickly or hard in training in my opinion. Now, slowly working towards one to make someone move is a different thing.
I’m not a fan of cranks, I refuse to do them, but don’t harbor any ill will for those who do them. Especially since the neck is such a sensitive and delicate area wouldn’t want to give anyone a permanent injury. My coach had to get surgery on some of those upper vertebras from an off roll, never know what injuries your training partners have, that can be exacerbated by a crank. Had a training partner that would go for Ezekiel chokes, but mostly consisted of punching his fist in your throat, one time I held out because it wasn’t a choke, won’t do that again thought my trachea was collapsed, could barley swallow for a week. 😪 New moto if it hurts tap. At the end of the day 99% of us are hobbits even though we may not think it, so chill. 🤷🏻♂️
Only allowed if you oil check at same time.
Ask to be sure. I wouldnt do that to my training partners regardless
Always try to go easy on your opponent when you roll in class
lol
What are you gaining by him struggling to chew his food tomorrow?
I have to ask, how did you end up neck cranking him? What'd you do?
Grovit from front head lock
This has to be fake lol, there's no way a purple belt could be this clueless. Why not just pull a weapon out of your gi next time?
If I'm not 100% sure if groin strikes are allowed, I'm asking first.
Groin strikes aren't allowed in MMA or submission wrestling. Neck cranks are.
Yes, please don't neck crank me my neck gets fucked up enough doing this ❤️
What exactly is a neck crank? I hear it all the time but don’t really understand what it is exactly
- [The nastiest way to open the closed guard](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq4G9vgkS0Y) - [Top 10 neck cranks- how to get instantly DQ’d from a BJJ tournament](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilFVHTgYQs4) - [The lost neck cranks and spine locks of Judo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7S5iTrFACM)
Thanks. Ok I see. So just to be clear, these are all illegal in standard Bjj?
They're illegal in IBJJF competition, but the IBJJF does not own BJJ. Ask your instructor what's allowed at your gym.
Good point
What was the neck crank and how hard did you crank it?
I only neck crank in training when they are defend the RNC with their jaw, and I only do it in slow motion.
You're the asshole for assuming it's ok to neck crank
What day is scrimmage wrestling? That’s what I want to know.
I mean.. get better ...and find better training partners
No
Are neck cranks just for causing pain? I haven't had to deal with them but maybe two times, but I've seen guys just suck it up and not tap the whole time.
Ehh what? In what universe is neck cranks not allowed? Just increase pressure slowly and give them time to tap. Only thing banned in my school is jumping attacks and jumping closed guard, jumping scissor sweep etc.
NTA, we have submission grappling classes and neck cranks are a big part of catch wrestling. Plus, neck cranks are only illegal under some rulesets, every sub only event I've taken part in was fine with them.
> he got really pissed off and said this isn't allowed in Bjj and it's illegal at all levels Why didn’t you follow this up with; “it’s legal in MMA”
Are you retarded?? Yes, you’re the asshole. You’ve presented the story in a way that leads us to believe you were rolling with the intent to win the roll at all costs, even if that means injuring your training partner. You probably fucked his neck up for a day or two. In case you really are retarded, your training partners are your friends, and your friends probably won’t stay friends with you long if after every roll with you they can’t check their blind spots on their drive home, all because you roll like an asshole. Go on YouTube, watch how Gordon rolls with his training partners. Use that as your template for rolling with training partners.
>Are you retarded?? Yes, you’re the asshole. You’ve presented the story in a way that leads us to believe you were rolling with the intent to win the roll at all costs, even if that means injuring your training partner. You probably fucked his neck up for a day or two. Every roll is to win. No one goes into a roll to lose. I also didn't go there thinking I'll neck crank but the opportunity came from it. I also didn't rip it on and his neck was fine.
I once rolled with a hobbyist black belt and it seemed like the only thing he could catch me with. Which was bizarre to me. It’s one of those things that is frowned upon and I would say if it’s the main tool in your box I’d be annoyed
neck cranks are allowed in a number of BJJ rulesets. However they are obviously a delicate matter. You could very well be the asshole depending on how you applied the crank.
I don’t know what you mean my neck crank in this case. Was it just a rear naked across the jaw? Was it a twister? Did you just grab from front headlock and try to rip it off? Regardless, ‘submission wrestling’ doesn’t in any way entail ‘no holds barred’. You made that leap yourself. That said, if your head coach is a purple belt he probably has next to fuck all understanding of what he’s talking about, and has contributed to the miscommunication because of it. In general, are you a dick? I’d say yes. Cranking necks just because you can then humble bragging about it is fucking pathetic, no matter the rules. You’re training, not competing in some weird sambo or catch promotion.
>Did you just grab from front headlock and try to rip it off? From front head lock but I did it very slowly. >That said, if your head coach is a purple belt he probably has next to fuck all understanding of what he’s talking about, and has contributed to the miscommunication because of it. Nah not a head coach, just one of the coaches who has just started teaching a new class. At first it was no gi bjj ran by a black belt, but he moved away due to work so they called it submission grappling. >Cranking necks just because you can then humble bragging about it is fucking pathetic, no matter the rules. You’re training, not competing in some weird sambo or catch promotion. I don't really agree, I think ripping it on is absolutely unacceptable but a slow and controlled submission which gives plenty of time for someone to tap is fine. I wouldn't do it to a beginner but someone who is a purple belt who teaches "submission wrestling" which I take to mean all subs should not be against neck cranks, it's a legit submission.
I agree with OP. Everyone has the ability to tap as soon as they want. This is especially true when you, personally, change the rules to some amorphous set. Tap, then explain. There’s no room for your own ego when you’re teaching. But I also agree that I’d never neck crank anyone. That said, I would tap immediately to a neck crank attempt.
Gotta side with your coach here. Yep, you were a bit of an asshole here OP. It’s not the worst thing in the world or anything, but I’d probably be pissed if one of our guys were trying to neck crank me for the sake of it. Presumably by being more MMA focused he just meant he’d be focusing on stuff that is more applicable when strikes are involved - less butt scooting or sitting in bottom half guard.
I wouldn't have just assumed the rules are different. Bit wild to do that without asking, mate. This is just the new 'cool' thing to call it. And it does make sense with stuff like ADCC, where it's supposed to not just be BJJ people.
Neck cranks are for shitty blue belts
Yes
As someone who has been neck cranked during training and basically paralyzed from pain for the next few days, in my opinion yes you are an asshole. It is not allowed in most Bjj rule sets but regardless it’s still during a training session where no championships are being won. what did you gain from hurting your training partner? absolutely nothing. Rolling with someone takes trust and communication
Yes
Your a d for cranking. He’s a d for not tapping lmao Bro lbh He knew his shit was being cranked and didn’t tap. Even me as a spazzy blue belt. When someone begins to crank in practice, I tap. It’s just practice bro. That’s how you get hurt. Also, people that r cranking, wtf. Nah but, if u slow down, give them enough time to tap. Then I can’t be mad. Even if u did crank. So hey, maybe slow it down a little.
I would never think of neck cranking someone. Like what if it snapped? I’m strong though
I apply it slowly and if it looks like it can't go any further, I'll let go. I've done the same with arm bars, some people just don't tap but I'm not going to break someone in training so I'll just give it up and go to something else
You’re the asshole and you know that. You knew what you were doing. Quit trying to win practice, it’s not that serious.
Neck cranks are a dick move, just don’t do them.
yes