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Yeah, I'd rather have it with fewer and more affordable. People complain about MMGs and LMGs, but don't think HMG complaints have ever been much of a thing? So seems weird... Unless it is a misprint... or something to intentionally throw us off the scent lol.
> but don't think HMG complaints have ever been much of a thing?
No one took HMG teams. Anyone complaining about MMG teams also applied to HMG teams.
But HMG bolted onto vehicles for 15 points was very price efficient. And then the cheesy anti air quad 50's being hilariously OP.
It's crazy because they got the gentlemans war set widely reviewed as the best starter set and then just decided to not use any of the lessons learned for this set.
Probably the strangest thing about this set is that, unless I’m missing something, it makes no sense for a German player to split this box with an American player. The American player has about $95 usd worth of value in this (a box of winter Americans -3 soldiers, and a greyhound) where the German player has about $30 of value (about half a box of Fallschimjagers). Like, even if it makes sense from a gameplay standpoint, it would be better for the German player to get the rulebook and a box of fallschimjagers separately.
If you math it out with current points, it's pretty much dead even. 18 Vets vs. 24 Regulars with an open topped vehicle. I feel like everyone assumed the US would be airborne because of the show Band of Brothers, but airborne soldiers were only a small part of Allied troops present for the battle.
If they added a German vehicle, it would be heavily imbalanced in favour of the Germans. That would mean adding more for the US and then people would still complain about it being imbalanced.
It is, but it still out ranges everything else in the box with it's main gun, and you can use it as a MMG/HMG platform.
Not only that, the Germans are getting 3 dice and small squads, granted at Veteran, whereas the US will be on 4 dice with larger regular squads.
Not a huge issue if you know the game enough, but to a new player I definitely think they'll find German underpowered.
I'm guessing they play tested with a lot of experienced players who know how to use multiple smaller squads to play around an open-topped vehicle.
Either that or the new rules buff things like cover, veterans, and special weapons like ARs and panzerfausts
playtesting with Vets who know the game for a STARTERbox..
Gentlemen's war was a great way to get new people into BA. This box doesn't look like a proper starterbox at all.
LOOK AT THAT CARD!!
6 SHOTS FOR THE MMG!
6 SHOTS AND 48" OF RANGE FOR THE HMG!
It seems like they've heard the plea of the machine gun enthusiasts who complained about M/HMGs being, well, not actually \*bad\*, but not as much as a threat as they were IRL. I'm glad I stocked up on Maxims and Dushkas!
I hope they nerf it! After all, the two side machine guns were fixed, fired in a straight line, and the only way to "aim" them was to turn the entire tank in the right direction and to follow the tracers.
That's "hits on a 6 in perfect conditions" material to me.
I'm just going to throw a little bit of positivity in here, I really like some of the new sprues and hope they come out with more. The us gets a radio arm/hand, and the Germans get 3 different panzerfaust arms and an additional one for slinging across someone's back. I am disappointed by the balance, but I'm going to keep hoping. Gentlemen's war was great, they can do it again
German vets in heavy cover with panzerfausts vs US noobs is what they may have thought. Like a scenario set I suppose.
For what reason, I don't know. I wouldn't want to split and get some house ruins tbh
People also often mean balanced when it comes to splitting it with a friend. How would you split this box if you want the germans but the US get more models and even a vehicle, how do you decide who pays how much?
It always corresponds in some way to the dollar amount of the units as sold separately. I was just explaining why many people, myself included, have a problem with the set.
I'll paste someone else's comment here:
"Probably the strangest thing about this set is that, unless I’m missing something, it makes no sense for a German player to split this box with an American player. The American player has about $95 usd worth of value in this (a box of winter Americans -3 soldiers, and a greyhound) where the German player has about $30 of value (about half a box of Fallschimjagers). Like, even if it makes sense from a gameplay standpoint, it would be better for the German player to get the rulebook and a box of fallschimjagers separately."
Starter boxes are for the beginnings of an army, you will be adding more to it either way. Maybe you play 2-3 games tops with this matchups. What's not balanced is model value for each side. I was hoping to split a box of this as a Germany player but why would I? This is awful as an even split. There's no way the dollar values line up
Call me crazy, but I feel like this could be a good starting point for an Aleutian campaign army. You could transform the falchimjaegers into Alaskan Territorial Guards by replacing the heads, ideally with parka hoods, and replace the fg42 with bolt action rifles
As someone who owns like 5 of them and used them extensively for years, I have to agree it's kind of a POS, not to mention out of scale drastically. Kind of wish they introduced something new here
How about order dices? I can see here 3 small infantry units and hq at german side, but only 3 dices? And two big infantry squads, hq and greyhound at americans with 5 dices
Am I the only one excited for kitbash potential? Looking at the sprues, it doesn’t seem like the arms are particularly distinguishable for being great coats or winter arms for the Germans. I think they might have a bit of “heft” to them in general but may actually pass pretty well with regular US infantry and German bodies. Especially once painted.
Those of you commenting about only 3 order dice aren't reading closely enough about the fanatics ignoring pins, engineers ignoring defensive bonuses, and infiltrators getting +1 to saves depending on their order.
I think we probably need to chill a bit on the balance. Yes in 2nd edition this would be unbalanced, but we don't know any of the rules for these units outside of the Greyhound. We also don't know what the national rules are either. While it's probably slightly unbalanced there very well could be things we are missing that will give this a better feel. Regardless..... the same broken house from BoB? Ugh.
Came here to ask exactly this question! I’m glad it’s not just a neophyte like me that thinks this looks unbalanced. I’ll stick to my plan of Oddball’s Sherman, the new Ranger box, a mortar team and a half track as my first force!
Just to extract more value from this... but looking at the sprues, there are 3 US bodies without ammo belt in each one... so... probably half of the US troops can be converted to germans in winter coats using spare weapons, heads and equipment from the FJ sprues... not ideal... but an idea if someone finds it useful. (you could also see this as a "german operation greif starter army")
It's an okay box, I was mostly interested in the German paratroopers, and i already have that terrain. So this box at that pricepoint the box doesn't have much appeal to me. The winter aesthetic is the main appeal IMO, other than that consider me underwhelmed.
I agree it's a little unbalanced but not from a points/gameplay perspective. As a relatively new player I know enough to see that you can make two armies of equal points here to get started. My thoughts are that you need to work a bit harder/spend a bit more to grow the FJ compared to the Americans. I would have liked a mortar or light AT in place of terrain.
I know having a decent looking board helps draw people in but I'd have thought printed cardboard buildings would be cheaper in that regard allowing for another sprue for the German side.
Like many have said I love the new figures and I will buy the box but as someone who will build out the FJ before the Americans I feel a little short changed value wise. I would expect the new sprues will show up as a giveaway on wargames illustrated before the end of the year so that will help the FJ.
Tom
They learned nothing from the great "Gentleman War" Starter.
Same number of Men, an armoured car each... but nooooo... we have to put in those dumb ruins, instead of an Sdkfz 222 or so, and equal number of bodies.
I mean isnt the idea of a 2 player starter to give 2 players a starter army? Failed in that account.
I'm going to take the semi cynical view and say that an unbalanced starter encourages expanding your forces, but I already have a lot of stuff and the new models look cool
Seems balanced to me, they both add up to about the same number of points. Germans are veterans and US are regulars. Plus we have no frame of reference for how the new rules enter in to it apart from the single page we've seen so far, as well as the MG buff (which we don't even have the full story on yet). I think it looks fine for a starter set.
At a quick glance it seems unbalanced, and yes I’d like to see it include a 222 for the Germans, but let’s take a more detailed look at this.
You’ve got 3 German Fallschirmjäger squads which are almost certainly going to be taken as veteran, armed with STGs and FG42s. There’s also going to be options for panzerfaust.
And while we don’t have any rulebooks just yet, I’m assuming there’s nothing stopping you from making the American squads smaller or the German squads bigger.
There’s definitely room for improvement but I’m still going to get it
Yes just run the fallschirmjagers as veteran and US as inexperienced. I think the point is you buy from Warlord direct and choose your reward shipping method. Pretty straightforward if you ask me.
It's cool to see a new set for 3rd
But yes the germans need a vehicle and that terrain could have been something a little more interesting and different. I would still buy this though
I did some chicanery on Easy Army, and realized that assuming 2e point costs, the force is fairly balanced. According to my maths, the German platoon comes out to about 426 points, and the American at 431. This is all assuming they're built exactly as shown on in this image, and that the German player spams Panzerfausts on every squad except the LMG squad.
Under current points values and equipping soldiers as displayed (like a first time player might do)
we get
Fallschrimjaeger - 376pts
3 man vet Officer Team
5 man with 5 smg and 2 panzerfaust
5 man with assualt rifle and 1 panzerfaust
5 man with 1 lmg
vs
USA - 441pts
3 man Reg Officer Team
11 man Reg Squad with 2 BAR and 1 SMG
10 man Reg Squad with 2 BAR and 1 SMG
1 Reg M8 Greyhound with HMG
So it is in favour of the US, but not by much. Add a Sherman and a Panzer IV and it gets very close to even points.
Edited: got my values wrong, they're now correct
Something I've yet to see anyone mention is that given the scenario, you can use some of those Americans as disguised Germans with their cool infiltration rules which would even up the balance.
Given I have both Winter Germans and Americans, and a Greyhound, I'm on the fence about getting this. It would be nice to have some better sculpts for the Americans, and headswaps on the Germans would fit them in with the rest of my army, and I can use the Greyhound for my Brits. Will just come down to the cost differential between buying the book on it's own vs the set.
Germans are most likely vets with a Panzerfaust option but yeah it is potentially unbalanced. Maybe the Germans gain certain advantages in the custom scenarios.
They also likely just wanted more US Winter as a selling point for people already in the game.
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Anyone else notice that the Heavy Machine Gun and the Medium Machine Gun have 6 shots each on the Greyhound's card?
Good eye! Although it seems like a weird buff to give the *HMG* 6 shots too? Six shots with +1 pen is pretty fucking strong...
Probably gonna cost and arm and a leg in points though
Yeah, I'd rather have it with fewer and more affordable. People complain about MMGs and LMGs, but don't think HMG complaints have ever been much of a thing? So seems weird... Unless it is a misprint... or something to intentionally throw us off the scent lol.
I also have a feeling could be misprint, but also the “special” traits is not shown so there could be some new traits that could balance it?
> but don't think HMG complaints have ever been much of a thing? No one took HMG teams. Anyone complaining about MMG teams also applied to HMG teams. But HMG bolted onto vehicles for 15 points was very price efficient. And then the cheesy anti air quad 50's being hilariously OP.
Yeah, MMG and HMG buff! That's great
Should the HMG have 6 shots though? Id rather see less shots with +1 pen tbh, a 50 cal hits hard but is kinda slow (compared to german mgs anyway)
They also bumped the range up
Cards?
Germans could really do with a 250 or armoured car instead of the buildings in this box
I like it when terrain's added to starter sets, but using it at the expense of balance is silly
Agreed but I'd like not the slightly off scale farmhouse again please. Got about 4 of them now from achtung and BoB.
They actually just made the Band of Brothers set but even worse Did they even think about this set at all?
No. Lol
Yup, someone's got a "Bulge" and it definitely ain't the Germans 😂
That is the Bulge of Freedom
It's crazy because they got the gentlemans war set widely reviewed as the best starter set and then just decided to not use any of the lessons learned for this set.
I figured the Greyhound was going to be included because of the artwork. Was expecting them to balance with a 222 or Puma.
or a few support squads/mmg, like i get the narrative they want to use but add a sniper team/panzerschreck crew
Probably the strangest thing about this set is that, unless I’m missing something, it makes no sense for a German player to split this box with an American player. The American player has about $95 usd worth of value in this (a box of winter Americans -3 soldiers, and a greyhound) where the German player has about $30 of value (about half a box of Fallschimjagers). Like, even if it makes sense from a gameplay standpoint, it would be better for the German player to get the rulebook and a box of fallschimjagers separately.
Looking at it from this perspective, I can see the concern.
Not as bad if the German player takes the terrain, but yeah this is a really weird split.
How often do two peeps actually split a starter like that? More often I see two boxes purchased and trades made.
Even with the purchase 2 and trade, it means that the American ends up with a lot more stuff. The trade isn’t close to even.
Don’t disagree
3rd ed rule book means lots of people might have done splits to make a new army, but with splits being shit value might just buy the hardback book.
If you math it out with current points, it's pretty much dead even. 18 Vets vs. 24 Regulars with an open topped vehicle. I feel like everyone assumed the US would be airborne because of the show Band of Brothers, but airborne soldiers were only a small part of Allied troops present for the battle. If they added a German vehicle, it would be heavily imbalanced in favour of the Germans. That would mean adding more for the US and then people would still complain about it being imbalanced.
totally true! did the math too... also, you could squeeze some more points from those FJ with simple conversions (a sniper team, an FO, etc)
Thanks, such An underrated comment.
Yep, seems fine to me, both about 400pts - lots of options for the FJ in terms of adding assault rifles and panzerfausts, etc to make up any deficit.
This is the only comment that matters lol
This means the German player has to go full veteran though. I would have thought a starter set, of all things, would allow for symetrical teams.
FJ have to be taken as either Vets (standard) or Green (Battle of the Bulge option).
That would Tell new players that games should be symetrical.
Not really. They would just have their first game with similar units, which makes it simpler to learn a complex game.
I guess the intention is to run the US as Regular. Putting a lot of faith in the Panzerfausts 😅
Rules are changing but the Greyhound is open-topped and very pinnable?
It is, but it still out ranges everything else in the box with it's main gun, and you can use it as a MMG/HMG platform. Not only that, the Germans are getting 3 dice and small squads, granted at Veteran, whereas the US will be on 4 dice with larger regular squads. Not a huge issue if you know the game enough, but to a new player I definitely think they'll find German underpowered.
I see at least three MG34/MG42s. That might balace things out? I agree that the US Infantry are probably regular to keep things balanced(ish).
Yes I think you get 3 sprues, with an mg42 on each
Why can't they make balanced starter set? 18 inf vs 24 and greyhound, why?
I'm guessing they play tested with a lot of experienced players who know how to use multiple smaller squads to play around an open-topped vehicle. Either that or the new rules buff things like cover, veterans, and special weapons like ARs and panzerfausts
playtesting with Vets who know the game for a STARTERbox.. Gentlemen's war was a great way to get new people into BA. This box doesn't look like a proper starterbox at all.
LOOK AT THAT CARD!! 6 SHOTS FOR THE MMG! 6 SHOTS AND 48" OF RANGE FOR THE HMG! It seems like they've heard the plea of the machine gun enthusiasts who complained about M/HMGs being, well, not actually \*bad\*, but not as much as a threat as they were IRL. I'm glad I stocked up on Maxims and Dushkas!
Dushka superemacy comrade
Imagine now dakka tanks like the Stuart what they can do
I hope they nerf it! After all, the two side machine guns were fixed, fired in a straight line, and the only way to "aim" them was to turn the entire tank in the right direction and to follow the tracers. That's "hits on a 6 in perfect conditions" material to me.
I hate dalla tanks too and I agree to only hit on six with that kind of "indirect" fire since you are not aiming the machine guns
I'm just going to throw a little bit of positivity in here, I really like some of the new sprues and hope they come out with more. The us gets a radio arm/hand, and the Germans get 3 different panzerfaust arms and an additional one for slinging across someone's back. I am disappointed by the balance, but I'm going to keep hoping. Gentlemen's war was great, they can do it again
It's the thing you buy before you realize you should have bought an army set.
German vets in heavy cover with panzerfausts vs US noobs is what they may have thought. Like a scenario set I suppose. For what reason, I don't know. I wouldn't want to split and get some house ruins tbh
How could we possibly know if the Starter Set is balanced or not? We don't have the Third Edition rules yet.
People also often mean balanced when it comes to splitting it with a friend. How would you split this box if you want the germans but the US get more models and even a vehicle, how do you decide who pays how much?
[удалено]
How many people do you think will want to pay the same amount of money for 18 FJs and 24 US troopers and an armored car lol?
[удалено]
It always corresponds in some way to the dollar amount of the units as sold separately. I was just explaining why many people, myself included, have a problem with the set. I'll paste someone else's comment here: "Probably the strangest thing about this set is that, unless I’m missing something, it makes no sense for a German player to split this box with an American player. The American player has about $95 usd worth of value in this (a box of winter Americans -3 soldiers, and a greyhound) where the German player has about $30 of value (about half a box of Fallschimjagers). Like, even if it makes sense from a gameplay standpoint, it would be better for the German player to get the rulebook and a box of fallschimjagers separately."
You seem to not understand how money works?
This. So much this. Too early and not enough info to talk about balance.
Starter boxes are for the beginnings of an army, you will be adding more to it either way. Maybe you play 2-3 games tops with this matchups. What's not balanced is model value for each side. I was hoping to split a box of this as a Germany player but why would I? This is awful as an even split. There's no way the dollar values line up
Think I'll just buy the 2nd Ed set with the sticker for the free 3rd ed rulebook.
Was thinking the same thing, only upside with this box is the FJ’s are a lot cooler than grenadiers imo
The Germans only get three command dice too.
yes thats not fitting to the whole set looking at the image
Call me crazy, but I feel like this could be a good starting point for an Aleutian campaign army. You could transform the falchimjaegers into Alaskan Territorial Guards by replacing the heads, ideally with parka hoods, and replace the fg42 with bolt action rifles
Does anyone actually like the farmhouse kit?
As someone who owns like 5 of them and used them extensively for years, I have to agree it's kind of a POS, not to mention out of scale drastically. Kind of wish they introduced something new here
It's a pretty mid kit, i'd rate it acceptable quality at best. I already have one though, not keen on a 2nd set of it.
How about order dices? I can see here 3 small infantry units and hq at german side, but only 3 dices? And two big infantry squads, hq and greyhound at americans with 5 dices
I think they just might have messed up the graphic there
I think so, because overall ammount of dices is right, but it should be 4/4 not 3/5
Note the machine gun shots on the card, both are at 6. Curious how much they shifted that in 3rd.
Balancing issues aside, I love the look of those Fallschirmjagers!
We have no context for what changes v3 is bringing so we can't definitively declare it's unbalanced.
Am I the only one excited for kitbash potential? Looking at the sprues, it doesn’t seem like the arms are particularly distinguishable for being great coats or winter arms for the Germans. I think they might have a bit of “heft” to them in general but may actually pass pretty well with regular US infantry and German bodies. Especially once painted.
I was really hoping for a eastern front set
I’ll still buy it who am I kidding..
Those of you commenting about only 3 order dice aren't reading closely enough about the fanatics ignoring pins, engineers ignoring defensive bonuses, and infiltrators getting +1 to saves depending on their order.
I think we probably need to chill a bit on the balance. Yes in 2nd edition this would be unbalanced, but we don't know any of the rules for these units outside of the Greyhound. We also don't know what the national rules are either. While it's probably slightly unbalanced there very well could be things we are missing that will give this a better feel. Regardless..... the same broken house from BoB? Ugh.
I figure giving the germans a puma or 222 would help fix the balancing issues?
Came here to ask exactly this question! I’m glad it’s not just a neophyte like me that thinks this looks unbalanced. I’ll stick to my plan of Oddball’s Sherman, the new Ranger box, a mortar team and a half track as my first force!
Just to extract more value from this... but looking at the sprues, there are 3 US bodies without ammo belt in each one... so... probably half of the US troops can be converted to germans in winter coats using spare weapons, heads and equipment from the FJ sprues... not ideal... but an idea if someone finds it useful. (you could also see this as a "german operation greif starter army")
It's an okay box, I was mostly interested in the German paratroopers, and i already have that terrain. So this box at that pricepoint the box doesn't have much appeal to me. The winter aesthetic is the main appeal IMO, other than that consider me underwhelmed.
I agree it's a little unbalanced but not from a points/gameplay perspective. As a relatively new player I know enough to see that you can make two armies of equal points here to get started. My thoughts are that you need to work a bit harder/spend a bit more to grow the FJ compared to the Americans. I would have liked a mortar or light AT in place of terrain. I know having a decent looking board helps draw people in but I'd have thought printed cardboard buildings would be cheaper in that regard allowing for another sprue for the German side. Like many have said I love the new figures and I will buy the box but as someone who will build out the FJ before the Americans I feel a little short changed value wise. I would expect the new sprues will show up as a giveaway on wargames illustrated before the end of the year so that will help the FJ. Tom
How are they still selling that undersized ruins?
They learned nothing from the great "Gentleman War" Starter. Same number of Men, an armoured car each... but nooooo... we have to put in those dumb ruins, instead of an Sdkfz 222 or so, and equal number of bodies. I mean isnt the idea of a 2 player starter to give 2 players a starter army? Failed in that account.
Oh, wow. This is the new 3rd edition starter box? Ouch. Not very balanced at all.
I'm going to take the semi cynical view and say that an unbalanced starter encourages expanding your forces, but I already have a lot of stuff and the new models look cool
Honestly, it looks about as balanced as Band of Brothers.
Or if you have the band of brothers you could field the sdkfz for the FJs
That's a good idea actually!! Depending on new rules and all !
Seems balanced to me, they both add up to about the same number of points. Germans are veterans and US are regulars. Plus we have no frame of reference for how the new rules enter in to it apart from the single page we've seen so far, as well as the MG buff (which we don't even have the full story on yet). I think it looks fine for a starter set.
Nice balance.. next starter set will be Germany vs Luxembourg 1940?
That HMG you can add to the Greyhound can chew up those Veteran FJ!
They're both about 400pts in the current edition, assuming regular troops for US vs obviously Vets for Germany. Pretty balanced.
I guess cause they are meant to be veteran with assault rifles? Still not very balanced lol.
At a quick glance it seems unbalanced, and yes I’d like to see it include a 222 for the Germans, but let’s take a more detailed look at this. You’ve got 3 German Fallschirmjäger squads which are almost certainly going to be taken as veteran, armed with STGs and FG42s. There’s also going to be options for panzerfaust. And while we don’t have any rulebooks just yet, I’m assuming there’s nothing stopping you from making the American squads smaller or the German squads bigger. There’s definitely room for improvement but I’m still going to get it
Yes just run the fallschirmjagers as veteran and US as inexperienced. I think the point is you buy from Warlord direct and choose your reward shipping method. Pretty straightforward if you ask me.
Well now I think I will just buy gentlemens war and get the V3 book for free then...
These are about 400 points on each side
Still not loving the posing options. Nice that they put a scope on the FG42 and the PPSH is finally in heroic scale.
It's cool to see a new set for 3rd But yes the germans need a vehicle and that terrain could have been something a little more interesting and different. I would still buy this though
I did some chicanery on Easy Army, and realized that assuming 2e point costs, the force is fairly balanced. According to my maths, the German platoon comes out to about 426 points, and the American at 431. This is all assuming they're built exactly as shown on in this image, and that the German player spams Panzerfausts on every squad except the LMG squad.
Under current points values and equipping soldiers as displayed (like a first time player might do) we get Fallschrimjaeger - 376pts 3 man vet Officer Team 5 man with 5 smg and 2 panzerfaust 5 man with assualt rifle and 1 panzerfaust 5 man with 1 lmg vs USA - 441pts 3 man Reg Officer Team 11 man Reg Squad with 2 BAR and 1 SMG 10 man Reg Squad with 2 BAR and 1 SMG 1 Reg M8 Greyhound with HMG So it is in favour of the US, but not by much. Add a Sherman and a Panzer IV and it gets very close to even points. Edited: got my values wrong, they're now correct
Do you think they will announce additional starting sets?
Something I've yet to see anyone mention is that given the scenario, you can use some of those Americans as disguised Germans with their cool infiltration rules which would even up the balance. Given I have both Winter Germans and Americans, and a Greyhound, I'm on the fence about getting this. It would be nice to have some better sculpts for the Americans, and headswaps on the Germans would fit them in with the rest of my army, and I can use the Greyhound for my Brits. Will just come down to the cost differential between buying the book on it's own vs the set.
It's funny because in the real Ardennes offensive the Germans should be on the attack side I hardly see it with 18 men
Germans are most likely vets with a Panzerfaust option but yeah it is potentially unbalanced. Maybe the Germans gain certain advantages in the custom scenarios. They also likely just wanted more US Winter as a selling point for people already in the game.
Would it be possible to paint the fallschirmjager up as summer as opposed to winter?
You could but with their bulky winter equipment they’re thicker than average FJ’s and might look a little weird
Love the models but they’re putting too much faith in panzerfausts.
So they used the worse starter set band of brothers as a base and just added a tank ?
Germany needs a nerf too op. Not even a single car..