Yea! She needed to run quickly from the Murdstones. At all costs! I think she didn’t have many options for living alone and so had to marry someone if she didn’t want to continue to work for a family. Her family of many years was now no larger able to support her and it would be tough to start over. Barkis was very sweet to her and she made a great choice so it all worked out.
I think they’re cute. He’s a little miserly, but he overall supports that Peggoty wants to remain in David’s life. Peggoty deserves a soft place to land after her years of service to the Copperfields without the Murdstones getting involved.
The thing that gets me about Scrooge is he treats himself with the same lack of generosity he does everyone else. That doesn’t make his actions OK, but it’s an interesting insight into his head that gets lost in most film/television adaptations.
Yeah that was the only thing that seemed like a red flag to me too. But he doesn’t seem to be miserly only with her, it’s just how he lives, so it doesn’t read as controlling to me. At least not right now… lol
He's a (seemingly) simple man who's stuck in his simple ways, which honestly sounds like the best thing for Peggoty as she will essentially live the rest of her life holding a candle for Clara Copperfield. Peggoty can not love another person as she does the Copperfields, but she can go and do her housework in peace and find some comfort in her routines.
Barkis has the great advantage of being Not Murdstones. A very attactive quality. I think they’ll be OK, though probably will grouse at each other fairly regularly.
I really, really hope this is just Dickens being bad at writing romance, and not Peggotty marrying out of desperation. She was so opposed to marriage until now.
I think the decision was simple for her once Clara died. She could not have gone on with the Murdstones and she would go on to have a home and a life of her own (more or less).
I'm a bit bemused by other commenters calling their relationship cute or sweet, because Barkis strikes me as pretty creepy and oafish. I didn't like the descriptions of him staring at Peggotty, and the way he kept squishing her in the carriage made me cringe. But I agree that she didn't have any choice but to marry him and it seems like he'll probably treat her well. Maybe he's just super awkward? It just didn't come across as cute to me, idk.
I also don't think their relationship is cute, and I worry that Peggotty married him out of desperation, but I will say that I got "innocent crush" vibes from Barkis, not anything predatory. Then again, I also thought Steerforth was going to be a decent person, so I'm not the best judge of character.
I also wouldn't say "cute" myself, but I did interpret his behaviors as one of those things filtered through Davy's childlike perspective. Davy was squished in the coach and doesn't understand cuddling/making out at this point, so he tells the reader about it as an uncomfortable and almost aggressive physical encroachment. He doesn't know what "Barkus is willin'" means or how courtship works, so we get no emotions or romantic details about their interactions. At least I hope that's what is happening...
of course she did. She was lucky to have this option at the perfect time...she certainly couldn't stay with the Murdstones. She probably assumed David would be going back to school somewhere and then she'd have nothing. I think her and Barkis were cute together.
One positive for Barkis has been his kindness towards David. So many adults have taken advantage of David and been cruel to him. Peggotty must respect that.
I say yay, because it's a ticket away from Murdstone (who probably would've fired her anyway) and because Barkis at least seems to respect Peggoty in a 19th-century sort of way. I think Peggotty probably always wanted to marry him but wouldn't leave Davy's mom alone with the Murdstones. When she died, Peggoty didn't need to stay, so it seemed like a change of circumstances and opportunity, not a change of mind, in my opinion.
The Murdstone’s continue to bully David and his mother, do you think there is anything anyone could do to help them? Do you think Clara is genuinely under their spell, or is she just playing along in order to keep them both safe?
Arg. This was so sickening. They are horrible people. It’s like a game for them. It’s just pure domestic violence. I don’t know how someone could help - he isolated her from knowing any other people. The image of David just sitting all day for a month, afraid to move or look at anything. Clara basically willed herself to die to avoid these assholes. These were heartbreaking chapters for me to read - some of the toughest in awhile.
Seriously, they are disgusting and awful humans. I agree it was like a game for them, seeing how much abuse and control they can exert. For no reason!! They must have been abused themselves… that’s all I can chalk it up to. Especially since they’re siblings and BOTH so awful.
Yeah, it almost would have been better, or at least made more sense, if they were exploiting David for labor or something. But instead, they just wanted to keep him shut up in the house doing nothing and without any contact with the outside world. I guess it really was all about control for them.
The worst part of the whole thing for me was that David Copperfield Sr. (Davy’s father) sounded like a really genuine and warm person. I just wonder of Clara kind of gave up on life when he died. Through the whole Murdstone episode she was just lacking in spirit.
YES, I actually cried when Clara was reminiscing about how kind her first husband was to her right before she died. It was such a stark contrast with the abuse and manipulation she endured under the Murdstones.
Clara is doing everything she possibly can to try to stay under the radar and to protect David in the only way she knows how. It is an awful existence for all of them!
I think the idea that she is under their spell is accurate, or as good as we will understand. Things are not going as expected for mom. The Murdstone's are classic abusers: isolating mom from loved ones, gaslighting her, etc. Mr. Murdstone even brought his sister to help! As some point Mom realized this and decided there was no way out.
I agree. I think she was genuinely under Murdstone's spell in the beginning and thought he did care about her and want to take care of her. But now she's just a victim stuck in a horribly abusive relationship and can't find a way out. There weren't many options for women in her situation at the time, so she just has to take.
I think "under their spell" makes it sound like it's a positive experience. I think she feels trapped, while trying to convince herself it is a good thing to be with Mr Murdstone. I definitely don't think she is "playing along". I think she is just trying to survive the best she can.
I found it interesting to see Davy's relationship with Steerforth next to Clara's relationship with the Murdstones. Steerforth pretends(?) to be Davy's friend, but takes advantage of him, especially by taking his possessions. The Murdstones claim they are acting in Clara's best interest, but also take advantage of her, and take the keys to her house.
And in both the moment I think Davy and Clara think their relationships are good. It is heartbreaking to be the reader and see the issues with both of these relationships.
I think Clara was under Murdstone's spell during their courtship, and now, realizing she and Davy are trapped, she does what she must try to survive. I do also get a whiff of Stockholm Syndrome from her after a while - she never truly thinks the worst of Davy, but she does start to accept the Murdstone thinking about herself and the Murdstones' intentions. I don't think there was much anyone could do yo save them. Clara seems to die of despair, and it's her only real way out.
I will say, though, I interpreted the Murdstones differently than others. Yes, I agree that they are horribly abusive. But they don't beat Davy at all after Clara dies; they just ignore him. I really think that in their own twisted way, they somehow thought they were improving Clara and toughening her up, as well as teaching Davy the proper role of a kid (total submission). When Clara wasn't there to be taught, and Davy demonstrated submission upon his return, the physical abuse stopped. Murdstone seemed to genuinely grieve Clara's death, too. So I am not sure the domestic abuse was for fun - they saw it as their duty to bring the Copperfields up properly. Ugh.
Ok I can totally see your point. But it *pains* me to give them even an iota of redemption. Even if their motivations aren't heinous they are still vile, abusive, manipulating, control freaks with zero capacity for empathy. Reading these chapters really triggered next level dislike of the Murdstones! Poor Clara, poor Davy and poor innocent baby! Horrible
>Even if their motivations aren't heinous they are still vile, abusive, manipulating, control freaks with zero capacity for empathy.
Absolutely agree! You nailed the description of the Murdstones!
Poor Mr Mell gets fired for being poor, do you think Mell should have been more honest about his circumstances? Was Creakle justified in firing him? Why did Steerforth not get punished for his part in it?
No, Mell should not have been more honest. Classism was an even bigger problem back then than it is now. Poverty was literally viewed as a personal flaw: if you were poor, it was because you weren't trying hard enough to not be poor. That's why workhouses and debtors' prisons were a thing: people thought the poor deserved to be punished. (Dickens, of course, made an entire career out of writing books that point out how awful this attitude is.)
What I don't get is why Creakle favors Steerforth. Is he being bribed by Steerforth's family? Are they related?
Very true. The whole concept of debtor's prison reminds me a lot of the book Evicted by Matthew Desmond. In both no-win situations, poor people are deprived of the basic rights, abilities, and property that they need in order to pay off their debts! Like, how is someone supposed to earn money if they don't have a place to live or are in prison? Neither method of "dealing with" poverty has ever made sense to me.
Definitely! And our court system literally jails people for failing to pay court-related bills like court fees, fines, and parole costs (because apparently people on parole have to pay to be on parole which... what?) so we sort of have the modern version of debtor's prisons. Here's a [long article](http://The New Debt Prisons https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/16/opinion/politics/debt-america.html?unlocked_article_code=1.000.PkTC.DPtAeN14UN7S) about it if you're interested.
Mr Mell should never have been sacked. I don’t know how Steerforth got away with it, but that scene is what really made me wary of him. That kid will use anything and anyone if it’s to his advantage. I don’t know if we’ll ever see more or Mr Mell later in the book, but if we do, I hope his circumstances will have improved, if only to stick it to Creakle and Steerforth.
This was a big question I had. Was poverty such a shameful thing that you had to keep it (or divulge, depending I guess) from you employer? Why such a big deal—my god what an awful and difficult time in history to have lived?
That was a sad moment and highlights the injustice of poverty. We have come a long way to recognize the humanity of people in poverty, and we see where it stems from. Mr. Mell was right in avoiding the topic. How else would he have gotten a job?! i dont know. Mr. Creakle already was giving Steerforth a pass, and so actually I bet Steerforth was raised even higher in Mr. Creakle's mind for exposing Mr. Mell.
I don't think Mr. Mell did anything wrong, although his peers at the time would certainly disagree. Creakle fired him for being poor and hiding it, but I also suspect he would not have been fired if this came to Creakle's attention privately. The public embarrassment of having his star pupil call it out, having someone sp "morally failing" (poor) question that pupil, and Mr. Mell's insinuation that Creakle was probably aware of the poverty or could've figured it out if he'dpaid attention - all put nails in the coffin.
I had never heard of debtor prison. It was quite interesting! I guess they are just get free lodging and have to turn over their entire paycheck to catch up their debts. Fascinating!
Dickens’ own parents spent time in debtor prison in his youth as well! It’s interesting that he not only includes it, but describes it as not so awful.
From what I've read about the subject, conditions tended to vary a lot depending on your debts, standing in society, and the warden or the particular rules imposed in specific prisons. I wonder if Dickens' family experienced a less horrible version than some others, causing him to mellow the details of the Micawbers' incarceration.
If they continue to spend money recklessly on fine dining, they’ll remain poor. If they are able to reflect on their circumstances and change their actions, they might stand a chance of digging themselves out of it.
Yeah it isn't like a prison for other crimes it seems. I bet they dig themselves out. Maybe later David could help, though I want him to be able to take care of himself first!
They strike me as the kind of people who will be in and out of debtor's prison as the years go by. I agree they'll dig out, and also expect them to go back in!
I mean, everyone basically gets beaten daily. It sounds awful and abusive. My only guess at the staff’s motivation is that they were abused or suffered similar trauma and are now passing that down to the next generation.
It breaks my heart that so many children in that time probably had similar experiences. So many parents nowadays get mad at the slightest thing that teachers do, but schools like this were probably the norm back then. It's wild to me that they openly beat them and we're really only running the school for money.
These scenes reminded me of our Read the World pick for St. Kitts, Caribbean Chemistry. >!It's sad that not much changed in disciplinary methods at boarding schools in the British Empire in the roughly 100 years between the two books...!<
No, they are abused. They are poor and downtrodden, so Mr. Creakle probably views them as less than human, and as such doesn't feel guilty about his abusive nature. The boys seem to take care of each other thankfully.
It seems like a terrible place to learn and grow up! The abuse is pretty constant. Considering the boys generally pulled together and took care of each other (except for Tommy, who took the blame for others), I kind of expected it to be even worse, to be honest. I was anticipating bullying and complete loneliness for David, but he did make friends (even if Steerforth is manipulative and take his money/treats).
It's a bit of a sorry consolation prize isn't it really. The abuse by the adults served to bring the boys together. I suppose it could have gone the opposite way and then the boys wouldn't have been able to trust each other either (and so probably anyone ever).
We meet David’s new school friends. Steerforth, the one everyone looks up to, takes David under his wing. What do you think of Steerforth? Are his intentions honourable?
I'm conflicted. Steerforth gives me bad vibes and I really dislike him, but David loves him. I predict he's going in a bad direction and we'll find out later it was just another example of David's innocent narration vs. the truth of the situation. I was really cringing when Mr. Peggotty met Steerforth, but happily breathed a sigh of relief that nothing happend.
Me too! Given the way Steerforth treated Mr. Mell, I was really nervous about him meeting Mr. Peggotty. I wonder why Steerforth treated him with more respect?
Same here, but it seems to have been masked well enough that the interaction went well. Steerforth strikes me as the kind of manipulator who treats you with condescension so smoothly that in the moment you are thanking him for his kindness, and only after do you realize you feel uncomfortable.
Probably because insulting Mr. Peggotty would have upset David, and he was still pretending to be David's friend. I'm sure he would have behaved differently if David hadn't been there. Also, like u/reUsername39 said, his behavior was condescending, and David didn't understand that.
Steerforth? Steer clear of him, Master Davy! Yes, he’s got tons of charisma and could probably sell ice and snow to Santa Claus, but so far he’s used that charm only for his own ends. David is an impressionable boy who is all too eager to please, and I think Steerforth sees that and may be seeking to use that to his advantage. He may not be as obvious a villain as the Murdstones or Mr Creakle, but I think his manipulative nature will make him out to be a more subtle antagonist.
I agree with all of this! From the very first interaction, he reminded me of the waiter David encountered in the first section. Poor Davy thinks someone is looking after him or being helpful and they're really just using and manipulating him. Steerforth has the added benefit of being young and handsome, so David looks up to him even more.
Steerforth sounds a bit on the dodgy side to me. He straight away swept in and essentially stole little David's money for luxuries, knowing he'd be too innocent to know better.
Steerforth is vain and manipulative while David is innocent and overly trusting. They serve as opposites of one another. I think David looks up to him because he admires Steerforth’s confidence. He views him as kind when he takes David under his wing, but Steerforth is really doing so to expand his influence at Salem House.
I can't figure out if I'm naive or if the reader is supposed to react like this, but it took me until the scene where he bullies Mr. Mell to realize what a shitty person Steerforth is. He definitely acts manipulative earlier than this, so I probably should have figured him out a lot sooner, but he also seemed like a nice guy. It's like that scene when he first meets David and tells him how to spend his money: yeah, that was manipulative, but it also resulted in everyone having fun and David making friends with everyone, so it felt like an unselfish action.
I'm terrible at reading people in real life, but in books I'm usually good at reading between the lines and figuring characters out, so it kind of freaked me out how wrong I was about him. I feel gullible.
I haven't read ahead (and I haven't read Demon Copperhead or any other adaptation), so this is purely a guess, but I'm going to bet that someday he'll meet Little Em'ly and there will be a love triangle. That's my prediction.
(Also, is it just me or does "J. Steerforth" sound like the name of a business tycoon? Seriously, what kid would go by his initial like that?)
I love/hate the prediction too. She is ripe for being seriously wronged and Steerforth seems like the perfect guy to do it.
I was hoping she would get an “i” back in her name at some point, but it’s not looking good.
Regarding character names, I'm really impressed with how faithfully Kingsolver adapted them for Demon Copperhead: Em'ly is >!Emmy!< and Steerforth is >!Fast Forward!<. It's perfect!
(No other spoilers except the corresponding names)
As her spirit drains away (probably ruined by Steerforth, but who knows?) she will go to Em’’y, and then E’’’y, and then E’’’’, and then ‘’’’’. Like that song B-I-N-G-O.
I think I was primed to spot manipulators after the incident with the waiter, but I understand what you mean. Also I hate your Em'ly prediction because it sounds so plausible.
I'm with you, I was shocked by Steerforth's treatment of Mr. Mell. I knew Steerforth was manipulating Davy in part to expand his influence, as u/eeksqueak so aptly wrote. But I thought the ends justified the means because at least he treated Davy kindly and as you said, Davy did profit by becoming friends with everyone. So his tirade against Mr. Mell felt like it came out of nowhere when I was reading that scene. In retrospect, I guess it was about exerting even more control over things at Salem House.
I totally understand why you'd not suspect him at first. I think his initial actions straddle the line between kind/welcoming and manipulative because it's easy to imagine kids acting this way without meaning any real harm. We don't know at that point that Steerforth is the favorite, the leader of the boys, and exempt from all the punishment.
As far as your Em'ly prediction, I shudder but also think you're possibly on to something. There was that whole scene where Steerforth questions Davy about whether he has a sister, and I kept thinking how he was way too obsessed with this information. Is doesn't bode well for his interactions with girls in the future!
What’s interesting to me about Steerforth is that Narrator David isn’t revealing anything about what might come with Steerforth, even though he does seem obviously creepy. We’ve been getting foreshadowing signals about other characters (little Em’ly!). I expect him to reappear and reveal his true (ugly) colors, but maybe not. Kind of puzzling in a narration that is generally very clear. I don’t think of “Dickens “and “ambiguous” as belonging in the same sentence, but maybe…
I like how Dickens (or Narrator David) seems to intentionally be playing Unreliable Narrator. Like you know this guy, as an adult, has to be looking back at all of this and cringing at how the waiter ate his meal, Steerforth was actually a jerk, etc., but he gives you all of Child David's opinions while showing you enough that you can figure out for yourself that Child David didn't really understand what was going on.
That is true! And at the same time a lot of “I can see it now” passages, where the memories are vivid and not confused at all. I think this is a really nice way to present the variable nature of memory.
I just remembered a very specific example of Dickens doing this in another book. In *Bleak House* >!Esther's narrative opens with her saying something like "I was raised by a godmother, just like in a fairytale" and then going on to describe her childhood in a way that makes it obvious that her godmother was emotionally abusive, without her ever acknowledging the abuse directly in the narrative. She spends most of the book having to unlearn all the horrible self-esteem issues that her childhood gave her, so she starts out doing the ironic unreliable narrator thing that David Copperfield is doing here, and then gradually getting more honest with the reader as the story progresses.!<
Great point! This is something I hadn't really picked yp on in Dickens' writing before. This is definitely a unique approach to the unreliable narrator given adult David knows so much more now, but his memory is still affected by his emotions and the passing of time, and probably a bit of reluctance to admit certain truths to himself. I wonder if, as u/WanderingAngus206 pointed out, we aren't getting foreshadowing about Steerforth because even after hindsight kicks in David doesn't want to admit to himself that Steerforth is not a good guy like he thought. David knows what is coming but tries to preserve his high regard for the Steerforth of his memory, nonetheless.
I did not trust Steerforth at all. I kept thinking that David’s naivete about Steerforth was going to come back to bite him. However, I think Steerforth turns out to be a multi-dimensional character: not entirely bad—he does offer protection and leadership to the younger ones at times. But also not a great person—when he spills the “tea” about Mr. Mell’s situation. (Which I have a broader question about—-was personal poverty such a shameful situation at that time that it must be divulged or kept from your employer?)
Yeah, poverty was basically considered a moral failing. Dickens was obviously very opposed to this attitude (his father had been sent to a debtors' prison, like Mr. Micawber, and he'd worked in a factory as a child, like David), so his books tend to illustrate why this is a terrible attitude to have. He wanted to make his readers more compassionate to the poor.
Thanks for this response. Yes—I have read that this is very autobiographical and that he was a very strong social commentator (apparent here). Thank goodness for him and his writing, and the compassion he shows throughout for the less fortunate!
Just curious if anyone else here is in the same position I am: my first time reading this book, but have seem multiple television/film adaptations of the book, so the only outcomes I don’t know in advance are small enough to have been skipped in the adaption. Also read (and really liked) Demon Copperhead, and again, I knew the story well enough to understand how that book adapted names and plot lines from this book. All that is to say: Steerforth? Yeah, I know him.
This is my first time reading the novel and Demon Copperhead is the only adaptation I've encountered, so I don't have as much foreknowledge as you do, but I'm really enjoying spotting all the smart parallels Kingsolver created in her adaptation.
So you’re already seeing how she not only paralleled the major plot points but also the characters’ names. She also compressed the story greatly, making Dickins’ narrator seem very talkative.
Good point, I hadn't noticed that contrast. I liked Demon's voice a lot because it was very vivid and unique. David Copperfield's narration is a bit less flashy, though still does have some colorful expressions (he describes one person as having as much hair as an egg at one point). David also seems much more introspective than Demon, thinking more deeply about the things that happen to him. I'm enjoying this more contemplative style.
I thought Demon is a more entertaining storyteller than David is. David talks about mundane details far longer than I want to listen, while Demon talks in funny and colorful blurbs, often bluntly so. I guess I also found modern American rural poverty more relatable than old-style English urban poverty?
Both are totally fair preferences. I'm in awe of the way Kingsolver took similar themes and situations and adapted them to our own time period. It's like she's saying, "This shit is still going on today. We haven't solved all these problems yet."
I totally agree with this - she did an amazing job adapting it so it feels modern and shows these themes are so relevant to current society. Isn't it depressing that the concerns Dickens had are still part of daily lived experience for so many in the 21st century. He'd be pretty mad about that, I think.
I remember that Steerforth is a child that somehow has gotten popular and untouchable. I feel like to be at that school, your home circumstances can't be the best. Steerforth is mean to Mr. Mell but it's also because he grew up in a time where poverty was a moral sin as others have mentioned. He acts like a father figure to the other children and he does pretty good considering he is a child. I think David is also under a spell with Steerforth as his mother was with Mr. Murdstone. But all in all, David's experience at the school was probably better with Steerforth there.
Good points here! I hadn't considered that Steerforth might not have the best home life, and he may be doing his best given all that is working against him. He is a kid, too, learning how to survive this cruel world; he has just learned the wrong lessons.
> think David is also under a spell with Steerforth as his mother was with Mr. Murdstone.
Excellent connection! Both Davy and his mom swallow the lies, abuse, and manipulation they receive in part because they hold their abusers in high regard. While Steerforth isn't as outright evil as Murdstone, he does some real damage to others like Mr. Mell and allows Tommy to be abused when he could have intervened.
Oh boy. This whole scene of him coming home and spending the beautiful time with his mom, the baby and Peggotty was so incredibly well written. How he wishes he could have died then enjoying the baby because nothing would ever feel better. Dickens created an image that will stick with me for a long time.
Yes, I totally agree! This is the second time Dickens has eluded to a young character having a happy moment and then wishing they had died right there. This is such a moving scene, and the wishing for death adds a poignancy (and foreboding foreshadowing) that only makes it glow stronger. Both Davy and Em'ly seem to have their happiest moments in childhood. I guess it's all downhill from here...
David’s a good person who loves his mother so he’s excited about the baby. I was a little shocked by this as well, but it goes to show how much he cares for her. He’s excited to be home and share this piece of her. This was such a tender part of his homecoming.
I was surprised too, but I think it helped that Clara was excited for Davy to be involved with the new baby. She showed both of them such tender attention during this scene and I think Davy was just happy to be back with the loving version of his family.
I was surprised by the reaction. My first instinct was that he would connect the baby with Mr. Murdstone first and not with his mother. It was a really pleasant surprise, but also sad in hindsight. It would probably be much easier for David if he never met him, knowing his brother's demise.
I don't think any kid welcomes another child suddenly like this. think David has to deal with so much that he was probably stunned, but having his Mother and Miss Peggoty there softened the surprise in a nice way.
I was surprised we got the scene at all. I expected Clara to die in childbirth at some point while Davy was at school. (It's what she worried about in the beginning of the book when Davy was born and we get several instances of the Murdstones commenting on her weakness and helplessness, which I assumed were both emotional and physical characteristics.) So meeting the baby was a surprise to me and I am so happy Davy got this moment with his mom! I think Davy reacted so well to the baby because, at that point, anything that made his mom happy would've pleased Davy. He just wanted peace and happiness to return to their lives, and probably saw the joy the baby had brought Clara.
This part was so tragic. He really did not see this coming. He copes with it as best he can. I would say that his new circumstances are even more tragic than his mother’s passing itself. The moment where he waits for others to leave and the sounds of the factory assembly line to drown out the sounds of his sobs was so heartbreaking to read.
I was struck by two things: one, by the way David links the death of his baby brother with the death of his own childhood, which essentially gets buried along with his mother. This was an incredibly affecting metaphor and image for me.
And two: David's decision to remember his mother as she was in his early childhood as a young, beautiful, and loving mother. So on the one hand, David's child-self is dead and buried with his little brother, but on the other hand, his mother lives on in his memory and is young forever. I predict this image of his youthful mother and her love for him will be an ideal he will always yearn and strive to return to, but it will most likely be impossible.
Well said! I completely agree, and I hope David can carry that image of his mother with him into adulthood. It was so nice that he was able to put aside the Murdstone version of his mom on the end, and remember her happily.
It is a bleak feeling. He copes as best he can. I think having flash backs to the mourning and sorrow of that time throughout the book would do it justice.
I think she was horribly depressed from her living situation. She also had to feel terrible as a mother seeing she couldn’t even have a relationship with David. She felt hopeless with no way out for her and the baby and I imagine didn’t want to raise another child in that environment. She may have also had some postpartum depression. She just basically gave up caring for herself. The loss of the baby was such a sad outcome.
I agree with this sentiment that her circumstances and postpartum depression lead to poor health. If people are constantly hovering around telling you that you’re inferior as a mother and a homemaker, that has to eat away at your self worth.
She gave up on life. Things must have been bad for her. She maybe had all her hopes riding on Mr. Murdstone, but then she likely realized that Mr. and Miss Murdstone were going to control all the things about her raising the new baby as well.
> beaten to death by Murdstone.
I did wonder about this since the baby also seemed affected. Murdstone seems like the kind of guy who would meet Clara's emotions - whether tears over missing Davy or complaints about pregnancy symptoms or postpartum depression - with physical abuse as a lesson in how to be "stronger" and in control of oneself. If she was beaten while pregnant, they both could've languished because of it.
I assume mental health concerns are key here, as well as potentially nutritional deprivation, because I guarantee the Murdstones would not indulge a pregnant or nursing woman with extra calories. And also, just a broken heart.
I think Peggotty was trying her best to protect them both. The nasty Murdstone's certainly didn't make this easy, but she made sure Clara had a peaceful death, and she always tries to bring comfort to David.
I got the impression that Peggotty had romantic attraction to Clara! And by extension, she loved David too. The reason why she was so opposing to Clara's marriage to Mr. Murdstone was because she was jealous and didn't want Clara to be with anyone else.
Yes, it just clicked to me when Clara asked her if Peggotty would marry someday, she just laughed it off and saying she'll never marry. She ignored Mr. Barkis approach as long as Clara lived. When Clara passed away, Peggotty acted like she lost her love.
When she finally accepted Mr. Barkis' proposal, it's after she got laid off and had no idea what to do next. Even the wedding felt like a formality just to get on with it.
It makes me feel a tenderness towards her. I can't believe that she would give up her life to stay with Clara and David. Was she sending money back to Mr. Peggotty?
>Was she sending money back to Mr. Peggotty?
I also wondered this! Mr. Peggoty and Ham would need to be very successful fishermen to support a widow and two orphans, including Em'ly's school fees, even in that humble home.
He seems to be coping remarkably well for such a young boy. He doesn't seem badly treated per se, just very long hours. I'm slightly shocked by how much booze he packs away though!
My nephew is 11, he's a wonderful kid and super smart, but he's a KID. Life started so much earlier in those days. I think it's wonderful that kids can be kids for so long now.
I think David is inclined to take bad news and bad circumstances calmly and way better than most adults. I think for his circumstances he is honestly doing wonderful and making connections with the Micawbers, while not the most influential people, shows David's ability to be caring and thoughtful with people who show him affection.
> Life started so much earlier in those days.
Yes, modern life has sort of invented childhood and adolescence. It used to be school (often not for long) and then straight to the workforce.
I’m not surprised that Murdstone is using this opportunity to turn a profit based on his character. I’m also not surprised that the book includes this based on what I know of Dickens. He was staunchly against the exploitation of the poor and Victorian workhouses. He wrote often on welfare reform.
He is absolutely making the most of it. His curiosity and relience are pretty impressive. These qualities bring a lot of light and positivity to some pretty dismal circumstances.
While I was much older, his descriptions of finding his way around in all the London sights and sounds reminded me of going away to college in San Francisco in my late teems. Dickens describes that sense of adventure and newness in a big city so well.
>Dickens describes that sense of adventure and newness in a big city so well.
This is so true! I wasn't happy for Davy, but for us as readers, I was excited to get to London and read Dickens' city descriptions!
I think being away from the Murdstones is a plus no matter where you go. Davy is coping remarkably well given that he had no one preparing him for the real world. You can tell he has become a little more mature and aware now because we aren't getting scenes of him being taken complete advantage of and being clueless about it. I'm honestly sort of surprised that Murdstone felt any responsibility for Davy and didn't just put him out on the street. I guess he saw an easy source of labor. Plus, I do think he loved Clara in his own twisted way, so this could be his warm and generous tribute to her memory. Awww!
How old is he? He's growing up fast. He almost sounds like an adult in the way he engages with other people and seems to be a source of support for the Micawbers.
David is desperate for connection to others at this point. Little gent is not making friends at the factory. It makes sense that he wants to be near to the Micawbers, even though they haven’t been all that wonderful.
This! He has no connections to anyone he likes, other than Peggoty. Anything that looks like stability is better than continual disruption and rootlessness.
The scene in Mr Omer’s establishment was really great, so funny and poignant. I liked this comment, “Fashions are like human beings. They come in, nobody knows when, why, or how; and they go out, nobody knows when, why, or how. Everything is like life, in my opinion, if you look at it in that point of view.” Heidi Klum couldn’t have put it better.
And the Joram and Minnie flirtation was so memorable. Just so amazing how Dickens can create these indelible characters with a few strokes of his pen.
I loved them, too! When the adults were trying to decide what to do with David, I really hoped he could end up as an apprentice to the Omers! But alas.
I love Mr. Peggotty and co. and love little David's fondness for them, but my mental image of them is that they clearly don't have much money. It struck me that right away David refers to Mr. Micawber and his family/house as shabby, whereas he is just in constant awe of the Peggotty's. It makes wonder what the actual difference between the living and financial situations of the two families are and what exactly gives off 'shabby' as a first impression.
This is a really good point. I'm guessing it boils down to two things: First of all, despite their poverty, the Peggottys are more or less a stable and happy family. Things aren't perfect, Em'ly misses her parents and Mrs. Gummidge obviously has severe depression due to grief, but there isn't the air of desperation that the Micawbers have. I'd be surprised if Mr. Peggotty was in any danger of being shipped off to a debtor's prison.
I also think that for a child like David (and, let's be honest, for most of us readers) it's really easy to romanticize the Peggottys. There was a discussion question last week about their boat house, and everyone seemed to be in agreement that it would be really cool to live in a house like that. No one mentioned that converting a boat into a house isn't something you'd do if you could afford an actual house, especially if you had a family of that size. And I'm not saying this to criticize anyone who replied to that question. I also think, under the right circumstances, it would be fun to live somewhere like that, like a seaside version of cottagecore. But in the Peggottys' case, it was clearly the result of poverty, not an aesthetic choice. I can see how David might not grasp that.
I completely agree, and the only thing I'll add is that Peggotty is basically a second mom to David whom he's known his whole life. He is bound to view anything connected to her with a loving and charitable eye. The Micawbers start out as strangers and even though they treat David kindly, they don't have that shared history to add a shine to their circumstances in his eyes.
What’s up with Little Emily? I guess she’s going through that thing where all preteen girls become giggly and twisted for a few years before hormones sorts them out. I was hoping she would comfort David more in his present circumstances.
Honestly, nine is way too young to be tied down into a romantic relationship, so I can understand her wanting some distance from David! I also wonder if she doesn't quite know how to treat him since his mom died; plenty of adults struggle with that, so it could be even harder for a child. Though on the other hand, she's an orphan herself so you'd think she could empathize with him a bit more.
Silly and unrelated to anything: when I started this book I had the vague impression that David was supposed to be an orphan from my knowledge of the literary canon. I started reading and convinced myself that I must be mistaken because Clara’s such a lovely mother to him; I figured I mixed it up with Oliver Twist or some other Dickens. Imagine my surprise when David was called to the office to learn his mother is dying… this wrecked me.
“Dying. Well, actually she’s dead.” Reminds me of the old joke about ‘grandma being on the roof’. If you’ve somehow been spared this old groaner, here’s one version of it: https://www.lessannoyingbusiness.com/post/the-cats-on-the-roof
It was really sad, her death was certainly unexpected, I had expected some kind of hint that she was ill, but to just die like that was really unexpected.
I forgot to mention this last week, but I loved the preface, where Dickens talked about how much this book means to him and how much he loved writing it. You can really feel his emotions in it.
I went into this book without knowing anything about it, but I know just enough about Dickens's life to know that parts of this book (like David being sent to work at such a young age) are autobiographical. That just makes the preface even more poignant. I've read that Dickens was unable to discuss that part of his childhood because it upset him so badly, so the fact that he could get it out by writing this story is amazing.
Dickens really does incorporate a lot of details from his own life, which probably explains why so many of his stories have overlapping themes and tropes
I'm confused: did David actually get his teeth filed, or did they just say that to scare him?
When I was about David's age, I read the Great Illustrated Classics version of this book, and I remember absolutely nothing except for the sentence "They filed my teeth and made me wear a sign that said 'Be careful, he bites.'" That sentence horrified me because I couldn't imagine that not causing lifelong damage to his teeth (he'd have adult front teeth by that age, right?)
The actual book makes it sound like sarcasm, though, so I'm wondering if the author of the Great Illustrated Classics version misunderstood that scene.
This is a great question. My Google searches mostly uncovered David Copperfield, the magician, talking about cosmetic dentistry. 🤣🤦🏻♀️ I assumed it was to scare him, but you never know with Dickens' villians...
Dickens captures very small emotional details very well. There are many examples, but one is when David after he learns of his mother's death, pretends to be "ok" with the boys at school and writes how it gave him feel good not to take advantage of the attention and "take the same notice of them all." It contrasts subtly with Steerforth who would instead use the attention for his ego.
He illustrates the humanity and contrast of each character without being overly descriptive of their physical features, setting the atmosphere through each person's unique disposition. Such wonderful writing.
I love that Peggotty asked Davy's opinion on her getting married and that he attended her wedding. Unlike when Clara got married, Davy was sent away, didn't know it was happening, and didn't attend the wedding.
When I was in high school, my mom got engaged before I had met her now husband. I have always had a seed of resentment over not being included in this big decision. So this really resonated with me to show how much Peggotty cares for Davy and how loving their relationship is.
When Davy saw his mother for the last time when he was leaving for school it reads...
>*...she stood at the garden-gate alone, holding her baby up in her arms for me to see. It was cold still weather; and not a hair of her head, or a fold of her dress, was stirred, as she looked intently at me, holding up her child.*
Uh, what was this about? Why the holding the child up? Is this some metaphor/foreshadowing/something I don't get?
I interpreted this as half metaphor and half real memory. The real memory is that Davy's mom is trying to show some love and connection as he leaves, in the only way she was allowed - silently and from afar. He wasn't allowed near the baby, and she is showing she does want Davy to remember and feel connected to his brother.
The metaphor to me was that she holds the baby aloft as a beacon would be held up, to signal across distances that Davy should remember them and that her love extends and follows him. That could be a bit of over-interpretation on my part, but I almost pictured the baby as shining a message out to Davy - *We love you, remember us.* I saw it as possibly Davy's memory being exaggerated in retrospect since it was the last time he saw them.
I really like this take, thank you for sharing. I hadn’t considered the fact that this is from his memory and isn’t necessarily 100% factually accurate.
Mr Peggotty and Ham visit David at school, what does it tell us that they are his first and only visitors? Can you picture Steerforth visiting the Peggott’s on the house boat?
I feel very protective of Mr. Peggotty and want Steerforth kept far away from him. He gives me pretentious, condescending a-hole vibes and doesn't deserve to see the house boat.
Mr Peggotty and Ham are good, honest men. I would’ve liked it better if David had been sent to live with them instead of Salem House. But I guess the idea was to punish him, not reward him. I hope David learns more from their good nature than from Steerforth.
Them being the first visitors spoke to the fact that the Peggotys are Davy's only real support system left. It highlights how Murdstone controls the household so tightly that neither Davy's mom nor Peggoty herself could come visit. I also think there's a subtle point here about the lack of freedom women had relative to men at that time. Traveling alone would probably have been harder or less approved for Peggoty than for her brother and Ham. They also had means of transport (the boat) while she had no such resource available.
The Peggottys are David's real family now. The Murdstone's stole his mom away from him. I don't picture Steerforth visiting the Peggottys but it could happen!
Barkis and Peggotty – yay or nay? Do you think she made the right decision to marry him? Why do you think she changed her mind?
Yea! She needed to run quickly from the Murdstones. At all costs! I think she didn’t have many options for living alone and so had to marry someone if she didn’t want to continue to work for a family. Her family of many years was now no larger able to support her and it would be tough to start over. Barkis was very sweet to her and she made a great choice so it all worked out.
I think they’re cute. He’s a little miserly, but he overall supports that Peggoty wants to remain in David’s life. Peggoty deserves a soft place to land after her years of service to the Copperfields without the Murdstones getting involved.
Yes, there was a line about how stingy he was, made me question if it was a good choice or not to marry him.
Right? It's a theme that pops up all over Dickens' work. On a scale from one to Scrooge, how miserly are we talking here, Chuck?
The thing that gets me about Scrooge is he treats himself with the same lack of generosity he does everyone else. That doesn’t make his actions OK, but it’s an interesting insight into his head that gets lost in most film/television adaptations.
Hahaha that's a good question! Dickens must have an issue with stingy people in real life
Yeah that was the only thing that seemed like a red flag to me too. But he doesn’t seem to be miserly only with her, it’s just how he lives, so it doesn’t read as controlling to me. At least not right now… lol
Hopefully it stays ok, I like peggotty!
Me too, she’s the best!
He's not a super great catch but needs must!
How romantic lol
He's a (seemingly) simple man who's stuck in his simple ways, which honestly sounds like the best thing for Peggoty as she will essentially live the rest of her life holding a candle for Clara Copperfield. Peggoty can not love another person as she does the Copperfields, but she can go and do her housework in peace and find some comfort in her routines.
Barkis has the great advantage of being Not Murdstones. A very attactive quality. I think they’ll be OK, though probably will grouse at each other fairly regularly.
I really, really hope this is just Dickens being bad at writing romance, and not Peggotty marrying out of desperation. She was so opposed to marriage until now.
Hahaha a bit of both maybe?
I think the decision was simple for her once Clara died. She could not have gone on with the Murdstones and she would go on to have a home and a life of her own (more or less).
I'm a bit bemused by other commenters calling their relationship cute or sweet, because Barkis strikes me as pretty creepy and oafish. I didn't like the descriptions of him staring at Peggotty, and the way he kept squishing her in the carriage made me cringe. But I agree that she didn't have any choice but to marry him and it seems like he'll probably treat her well. Maybe he's just super awkward? It just didn't come across as cute to me, idk.
he 100% came across as awkward and bashful to me
I also don't think their relationship is cute, and I worry that Peggotty married him out of desperation, but I will say that I got "innocent crush" vibes from Barkis, not anything predatory. Then again, I also thought Steerforth was going to be a decent person, so I'm not the best judge of character.
I also wouldn't say "cute" myself, but I did interpret his behaviors as one of those things filtered through Davy's childlike perspective. Davy was squished in the coach and doesn't understand cuddling/making out at this point, so he tells the reader about it as an uncomfortable and almost aggressive physical encroachment. He doesn't know what "Barkus is willin'" means or how courtship works, so we get no emotions or romantic details about their interactions. At least I hope that's what is happening...
of course she did. She was lucky to have this option at the perfect time...she certainly couldn't stay with the Murdstones. She probably assumed David would be going back to school somewhere and then she'd have nothing. I think her and Barkis were cute together.
One positive for Barkis has been his kindness towards David. So many adults have taken advantage of David and been cruel to him. Peggotty must respect that.
I say yay, because it's a ticket away from Murdstone (who probably would've fired her anyway) and because Barkis at least seems to respect Peggoty in a 19th-century sort of way. I think Peggotty probably always wanted to marry him but wouldn't leave Davy's mom alone with the Murdstones. When she died, Peggoty didn't need to stay, so it seemed like a change of circumstances and opportunity, not a change of mind, in my opinion.
The Murdstone’s continue to bully David and his mother, do you think there is anything anyone could do to help them? Do you think Clara is genuinely under their spell, or is she just playing along in order to keep them both safe?
Arg. This was so sickening. They are horrible people. It’s like a game for them. It’s just pure domestic violence. I don’t know how someone could help - he isolated her from knowing any other people. The image of David just sitting all day for a month, afraid to move or look at anything. Clara basically willed herself to die to avoid these assholes. These were heartbreaking chapters for me to read - some of the toughest in awhile.
That's a good point about her willing herself to die, I had a question below about what actually happened to her and this fits.
Seriously, they are disgusting and awful humans. I agree it was like a game for them, seeing how much abuse and control they can exert. For no reason!! They must have been abused themselves… that’s all I can chalk it up to. Especially since they’re siblings and BOTH so awful.
Yeah, it almost would have been better, or at least made more sense, if they were exploiting David for labor or something. But instead, they just wanted to keep him shut up in the house doing nothing and without any contact with the outside world. I guess it really was all about control for them.
The worst part of the whole thing for me was that David Copperfield Sr. (Davy’s father) sounded like a really genuine and warm person. I just wonder of Clara kind of gave up on life when he died. Through the whole Murdstone episode she was just lacking in spirit.
YES, I actually cried when Clara was reminiscing about how kind her first husband was to her right before she died. It was such a stark contrast with the abuse and manipulation she endured under the Murdstones.
Clara is doing everything she possibly can to try to stay under the radar and to protect David in the only way she knows how. It is an awful existence for all of them!
I think the idea that she is under their spell is accurate, or as good as we will understand. Things are not going as expected for mom. The Murdstone's are classic abusers: isolating mom from loved ones, gaslighting her, etc. Mr. Murdstone even brought his sister to help! As some point Mom realized this and decided there was no way out.
I agree. I think she was genuinely under Murdstone's spell in the beginning and thought he did care about her and want to take care of her. But now she's just a victim stuck in a horribly abusive relationship and can't find a way out. There weren't many options for women in her situation at the time, so she just has to take.
I think "under their spell" makes it sound like it's a positive experience. I think she feels trapped, while trying to convince herself it is a good thing to be with Mr Murdstone. I definitely don't think she is "playing along". I think she is just trying to survive the best she can. I found it interesting to see Davy's relationship with Steerforth next to Clara's relationship with the Murdstones. Steerforth pretends(?) to be Davy's friend, but takes advantage of him, especially by taking his possessions. The Murdstones claim they are acting in Clara's best interest, but also take advantage of her, and take the keys to her house. And in both the moment I think Davy and Clara think their relationships are good. It is heartbreaking to be the reader and see the issues with both of these relationships.
I think Clara was under Murdstone's spell during their courtship, and now, realizing she and Davy are trapped, she does what she must try to survive. I do also get a whiff of Stockholm Syndrome from her after a while - she never truly thinks the worst of Davy, but she does start to accept the Murdstone thinking about herself and the Murdstones' intentions. I don't think there was much anyone could do yo save them. Clara seems to die of despair, and it's her only real way out. I will say, though, I interpreted the Murdstones differently than others. Yes, I agree that they are horribly abusive. But they don't beat Davy at all after Clara dies; they just ignore him. I really think that in their own twisted way, they somehow thought they were improving Clara and toughening her up, as well as teaching Davy the proper role of a kid (total submission). When Clara wasn't there to be taught, and Davy demonstrated submission upon his return, the physical abuse stopped. Murdstone seemed to genuinely grieve Clara's death, too. So I am not sure the domestic abuse was for fun - they saw it as their duty to bring the Copperfields up properly. Ugh.
Ok I can totally see your point. But it *pains* me to give them even an iota of redemption. Even if their motivations aren't heinous they are still vile, abusive, manipulating, control freaks with zero capacity for empathy. Reading these chapters really triggered next level dislike of the Murdstones! Poor Clara, poor Davy and poor innocent baby! Horrible
>Even if their motivations aren't heinous they are still vile, abusive, manipulating, control freaks with zero capacity for empathy. Absolutely agree! You nailed the description of the Murdstones!
Poor Mr Mell gets fired for being poor, do you think Mell should have been more honest about his circumstances? Was Creakle justified in firing him? Why did Steerforth not get punished for his part in it?
No, Mell should not have been more honest. Classism was an even bigger problem back then than it is now. Poverty was literally viewed as a personal flaw: if you were poor, it was because you weren't trying hard enough to not be poor. That's why workhouses and debtors' prisons were a thing: people thought the poor deserved to be punished. (Dickens, of course, made an entire career out of writing books that point out how awful this attitude is.) What I don't get is why Creakle favors Steerforth. Is he being bribed by Steerforth's family? Are they related?
Sadly, punishing the poor as immoral is alive and well and living in the USA (and elsewhere too, I am sure).
Very true. The whole concept of debtor's prison reminds me a lot of the book Evicted by Matthew Desmond. In both no-win situations, poor people are deprived of the basic rights, abilities, and property that they need in order to pay off their debts! Like, how is someone supposed to earn money if they don't have a place to live or are in prison? Neither method of "dealing with" poverty has ever made sense to me.
Definitely! And our court system literally jails people for failing to pay court-related bills like court fees, fines, and parole costs (because apparently people on parole have to pay to be on parole which... what?) so we sort of have the modern version of debtor's prisons. Here's a [long article](http://The New Debt Prisons https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/16/opinion/politics/debt-america.html?unlocked_article_code=1.000.PkTC.DPtAeN14UN7S) about it if you're interested.
This was so shocking, random, and would never happen modern day.
Mr Mell should never have been sacked. I don’t know how Steerforth got away with it, but that scene is what really made me wary of him. That kid will use anything and anyone if it’s to his advantage. I don’t know if we’ll ever see more or Mr Mell later in the book, but if we do, I hope his circumstances will have improved, if only to stick it to Creakle and Steerforth.
This was a big question I had. Was poverty such a shameful thing that you had to keep it (or divulge, depending I guess) from you employer? Why such a big deal—my god what an awful and difficult time in history to have lived?
That was a sad moment and highlights the injustice of poverty. We have come a long way to recognize the humanity of people in poverty, and we see where it stems from. Mr. Mell was right in avoiding the topic. How else would he have gotten a job?! i dont know. Mr. Creakle already was giving Steerforth a pass, and so actually I bet Steerforth was raised even higher in Mr. Creakle's mind for exposing Mr. Mell.
I don't think Mr. Mell did anything wrong, although his peers at the time would certainly disagree. Creakle fired him for being poor and hiding it, but I also suspect he would not have been fired if this came to Creakle's attention privately. The public embarrassment of having his star pupil call it out, having someone sp "morally failing" (poor) question that pupil, and Mr. Mell's insinuation that Creakle was probably aware of the poverty or could've figured it out if he'dpaid attention - all put nails in the coffin.
Life in the debtors prison sure doesn’t seem too bad! Are the Micawber family doomed to remain in poverty forever?
I had never heard of debtor prison. It was quite interesting! I guess they are just get free lodging and have to turn over their entire paycheck to catch up their debts. Fascinating!
Dickens’ own parents spent time in debtor prison in his youth as well! It’s interesting that he not only includes it, but describes it as not so awful.
Very interesting!
From what I've read about the subject, conditions tended to vary a lot depending on your debts, standing in society, and the warden or the particular rules imposed in specific prisons. I wonder if Dickens' family experienced a less horrible version than some others, causing him to mellow the details of the Micawbers' incarceration.
If they continue to spend money recklessly on fine dining, they’ll remain poor. If they are able to reflect on their circumstances and change their actions, they might stand a chance of digging themselves out of it.
Yeah it isn't like a prison for other crimes it seems. I bet they dig themselves out. Maybe later David could help, though I want him to be able to take care of himself first!
They strike me as the kind of people who will be in and out of debtor's prison as the years go by. I agree they'll dig out, and also expect them to go back in!
What do you think of life in Salem House? Do you think the boys are treated ok? What do you think motivates the staff at Salem House?
I mean, everyone basically gets beaten daily. It sounds awful and abusive. My only guess at the staff’s motivation is that they were abused or suffered similar trauma and are now passing that down to the next generation.
It breaks my heart that so many children in that time probably had similar experiences. So many parents nowadays get mad at the slightest thing that teachers do, but schools like this were probably the norm back then. It's wild to me that they openly beat them and we're really only running the school for money.
These scenes reminded me of our Read the World pick for St. Kitts, Caribbean Chemistry. >!It's sad that not much changed in disciplinary methods at boarding schools in the British Empire in the roughly 100 years between the two books...!<
No, they are abused. They are poor and downtrodden, so Mr. Creakle probably views them as less than human, and as such doesn't feel guilty about his abusive nature. The boys seem to take care of each other thankfully.
Traddles is such a sweet boy :)
It seems like a terrible place to learn and grow up! The abuse is pretty constant. Considering the boys generally pulled together and took care of each other (except for Tommy, who took the blame for others), I kind of expected it to be even worse, to be honest. I was anticipating bullying and complete loneliness for David, but he did make friends (even if Steerforth is manipulative and take his money/treats).
It's a bit of a sorry consolation prize isn't it really. The abuse by the adults served to bring the boys together. I suppose it could have gone the opposite way and then the boys wouldn't have been able to trust each other either (and so probably anyone ever).
Yes, it is not ideal but could be worse. It says a lot about Davy's home life that the school was preferable for him. 😕
We meet David’s new school friends. Steerforth, the one everyone looks up to, takes David under his wing. What do you think of Steerforth? Are his intentions honourable?
Just the name makes me think of steering or manipulating a person, so I'm wary of him.
Ooh that’s a good observation!
Oh good point about the name, suits him very well!
I'm conflicted. Steerforth gives me bad vibes and I really dislike him, but David loves him. I predict he's going in a bad direction and we'll find out later it was just another example of David's innocent narration vs. the truth of the situation. I was really cringing when Mr. Peggotty met Steerforth, but happily breathed a sigh of relief that nothing happend.
Me too! Given the way Steerforth treated Mr. Mell, I was really nervous about him meeting Mr. Peggotty. I wonder why Steerforth treated him with more respect?
I felt condescension rather than respect
Same here, but it seems to have been masked well enough that the interaction went well. Steerforth strikes me as the kind of manipulator who treats you with condescension so smoothly that in the moment you are thanking him for his kindness, and only after do you realize you feel uncomfortable.
Probably because insulting Mr. Peggotty would have upset David, and he was still pretending to be David's friend. I'm sure he would have behaved differently if David hadn't been there. Also, like u/reUsername39 said, his behavior was condescending, and David didn't understand that.
Steerforth? Steer clear of him, Master Davy! Yes, he’s got tons of charisma and could probably sell ice and snow to Santa Claus, but so far he’s used that charm only for his own ends. David is an impressionable boy who is all too eager to please, and I think Steerforth sees that and may be seeking to use that to his advantage. He may not be as obvious a villain as the Murdstones or Mr Creakle, but I think his manipulative nature will make him out to be a more subtle antagonist.
Totally agree with all of this, he just gives me stay away vibes!
I agree with all of this! From the very first interaction, he reminded me of the waiter David encountered in the first section. Poor Davy thinks someone is looking after him or being helpful and they're really just using and manipulating him. Steerforth has the added benefit of being young and handsome, so David looks up to him even more.
Well said! I don't trust him, and should he show up again, neither should Davy (although he's so slick, I'm sure Davy will.)
Steerforth sounds a bit on the dodgy side to me. He straight away swept in and essentially stole little David's money for luxuries, knowing he'd be too innocent to know better.
Steerforth is vain and manipulative while David is innocent and overly trusting. They serve as opposites of one another. I think David looks up to him because he admires Steerforth’s confidence. He views him as kind when he takes David under his wing, but Steerforth is really doing so to expand his influence at Salem House.
I can't figure out if I'm naive or if the reader is supposed to react like this, but it took me until the scene where he bullies Mr. Mell to realize what a shitty person Steerforth is. He definitely acts manipulative earlier than this, so I probably should have figured him out a lot sooner, but he also seemed like a nice guy. It's like that scene when he first meets David and tells him how to spend his money: yeah, that was manipulative, but it also resulted in everyone having fun and David making friends with everyone, so it felt like an unselfish action. I'm terrible at reading people in real life, but in books I'm usually good at reading between the lines and figuring characters out, so it kind of freaked me out how wrong I was about him. I feel gullible. I haven't read ahead (and I haven't read Demon Copperhead or any other adaptation), so this is purely a guess, but I'm going to bet that someday he'll meet Little Em'ly and there will be a love triangle. That's my prediction. (Also, is it just me or does "J. Steerforth" sound like the name of a business tycoon? Seriously, what kid would go by his initial like that?)
I love/hate the prediction too. She is ripe for being seriously wronged and Steerforth seems like the perfect guy to do it. I was hoping she would get an “i” back in her name at some point, but it’s not looking good.
Regarding character names, I'm really impressed with how faithfully Kingsolver adapted them for Demon Copperhead: Em'ly is >!Emmy!< and Steerforth is >!Fast Forward!<. It's perfect! (No other spoilers except the corresponding names)
OMG Steerforth's is brilliant. I need to read that book after we finish this one.
I agree, the name parallels have been spot on!
I'm so glad I'm not the only person annoyed by the way her name is written.
As her spirit drains away (probably ruined by Steerforth, but who knows?) she will go to Em’’y, and then E’’’y, and then E’’’’, and then ‘’’’’. Like that song B-I-N-G-O.
OMG, I literally laughed out loud
Don’t get me wrong, I will be as sad about her (probable) tragic end as anyone. I am not made of stone. But dammit her name does crack me up.
Dickens actually managed to create a character with a name more precious than "Tiny Tim." He really outdid himself with this one.
Why don’t we just go all in and call her “Lil’ Em’ly”?
I think I was primed to spot manipulators after the incident with the waiter, but I understand what you mean. Also I hate your Em'ly prediction because it sounds so plausible.
I think I'm suspicious of all the characters that David interacts with at this stage.
I'm with you, I was shocked by Steerforth's treatment of Mr. Mell. I knew Steerforth was manipulating Davy in part to expand his influence, as u/eeksqueak so aptly wrote. But I thought the ends justified the means because at least he treated Davy kindly and as you said, Davy did profit by becoming friends with everyone. So his tirade against Mr. Mell felt like it came out of nowhere when I was reading that scene. In retrospect, I guess it was about exerting even more control over things at Salem House.
I totally understand why you'd not suspect him at first. I think his initial actions straddle the line between kind/welcoming and manipulative because it's easy to imagine kids acting this way without meaning any real harm. We don't know at that point that Steerforth is the favorite, the leader of the boys, and exempt from all the punishment. As far as your Em'ly prediction, I shudder but also think you're possibly on to something. There was that whole scene where Steerforth questions Davy about whether he has a sister, and I kept thinking how he was way too obsessed with this information. Is doesn't bode well for his interactions with girls in the future!
What’s interesting to me about Steerforth is that Narrator David isn’t revealing anything about what might come with Steerforth, even though he does seem obviously creepy. We’ve been getting foreshadowing signals about other characters (little Em’ly!). I expect him to reappear and reveal his true (ugly) colors, but maybe not. Kind of puzzling in a narration that is generally very clear. I don’t think of “Dickens “and “ambiguous” as belonging in the same sentence, but maybe…
I like how Dickens (or Narrator David) seems to intentionally be playing Unreliable Narrator. Like you know this guy, as an adult, has to be looking back at all of this and cringing at how the waiter ate his meal, Steerforth was actually a jerk, etc., but he gives you all of Child David's opinions while showing you enough that you can figure out for yourself that Child David didn't really understand what was going on.
That is true! And at the same time a lot of “I can see it now” passages, where the memories are vivid and not confused at all. I think this is a really nice way to present the variable nature of memory.
I just remembered a very specific example of Dickens doing this in another book. In *Bleak House* >!Esther's narrative opens with her saying something like "I was raised by a godmother, just like in a fairytale" and then going on to describe her childhood in a way that makes it obvious that her godmother was emotionally abusive, without her ever acknowledging the abuse directly in the narrative. She spends most of the book having to unlearn all the horrible self-esteem issues that her childhood gave her, so she starts out doing the ironic unreliable narrator thing that David Copperfield is doing here, and then gradually getting more honest with the reader as the story progresses.!<
That is very cool. Some awesome metanarrative stuff going on here. I hadn’t really got that about Dickens before. Way to go Charlie!
Great point! This is something I hadn't really picked yp on in Dickens' writing before. This is definitely a unique approach to the unreliable narrator given adult David knows so much more now, but his memory is still affected by his emotions and the passing of time, and probably a bit of reluctance to admit certain truths to himself. I wonder if, as u/WanderingAngus206 pointed out, we aren't getting foreshadowing about Steerforth because even after hindsight kicks in David doesn't want to admit to himself that Steerforth is not a good guy like he thought. David knows what is coming but tries to preserve his high regard for the Steerforth of his memory, nonetheless.
I did not trust Steerforth at all. I kept thinking that David’s naivete about Steerforth was going to come back to bite him. However, I think Steerforth turns out to be a multi-dimensional character: not entirely bad—he does offer protection and leadership to the younger ones at times. But also not a great person—when he spills the “tea” about Mr. Mell’s situation. (Which I have a broader question about—-was personal poverty such a shameful situation at that time that it must be divulged or kept from your employer?)
Yeah, poverty was basically considered a moral failing. Dickens was obviously very opposed to this attitude (his father had been sent to a debtors' prison, like Mr. Micawber, and he'd worked in a factory as a child, like David), so his books tend to illustrate why this is a terrible attitude to have. He wanted to make his readers more compassionate to the poor.
Thanks for this response. Yes—I have read that this is very autobiographical and that he was a very strong social commentator (apparent here). Thank goodness for him and his writing, and the compassion he shows throughout for the less fortunate!
Just curious if anyone else here is in the same position I am: my first time reading this book, but have seem multiple television/film adaptations of the book, so the only outcomes I don’t know in advance are small enough to have been skipped in the adaption. Also read (and really liked) Demon Copperhead, and again, I knew the story well enough to understand how that book adapted names and plot lines from this book. All that is to say: Steerforth? Yeah, I know him.
This is my first time reading the novel and Demon Copperhead is the only adaptation I've encountered, so I don't have as much foreknowledge as you do, but I'm really enjoying spotting all the smart parallels Kingsolver created in her adaptation.
So you’re already seeing how she not only paralleled the major plot points but also the characters’ names. She also compressed the story greatly, making Dickins’ narrator seem very talkative.
Good point, I hadn't noticed that contrast. I liked Demon's voice a lot because it was very vivid and unique. David Copperfield's narration is a bit less flashy, though still does have some colorful expressions (he describes one person as having as much hair as an egg at one point). David also seems much more introspective than Demon, thinking more deeply about the things that happen to him. I'm enjoying this more contemplative style.
I thought Demon is a more entertaining storyteller than David is. David talks about mundane details far longer than I want to listen, while Demon talks in funny and colorful blurbs, often bluntly so. I guess I also found modern American rural poverty more relatable than old-style English urban poverty?
Both are totally fair preferences. I'm in awe of the way Kingsolver took similar themes and situations and adapted them to our own time period. It's like she's saying, "This shit is still going on today. We haven't solved all these problems yet."
Truth!
I totally agree with this - she did an amazing job adapting it so it feels modern and shows these themes are so relevant to current society. Isn't it depressing that the concerns Dickens had are still part of daily lived experience for so many in the 21st century. He'd be pretty mad about that, I think.
I remember that Steerforth is a child that somehow has gotten popular and untouchable. I feel like to be at that school, your home circumstances can't be the best. Steerforth is mean to Mr. Mell but it's also because he grew up in a time where poverty was a moral sin as others have mentioned. He acts like a father figure to the other children and he does pretty good considering he is a child. I think David is also under a spell with Steerforth as his mother was with Mr. Murdstone. But all in all, David's experience at the school was probably better with Steerforth there.
Good points here! I hadn't considered that Steerforth might not have the best home life, and he may be doing his best given all that is working against him. He is a kid, too, learning how to survive this cruel world; he has just learned the wrong lessons. > think David is also under a spell with Steerforth as his mother was with Mr. Murdstone. Excellent connection! Both Davy and his mom swallow the lies, abuse, and manipulation they receive in part because they hold their abusers in high regard. While Steerforth isn't as outright evil as Murdstone, he does some real damage to others like Mr. Mell and allows Tommy to be abused when he could have intervened.
David comes home to find he has a new baby brother, are you surprised at his positive reaction to the news?
Oh boy. This whole scene of him coming home and spending the beautiful time with his mom, the baby and Peggotty was so incredibly well written. How he wishes he could have died then enjoying the baby because nothing would ever feel better. Dickens created an image that will stick with me for a long time.
Agreed. It was brilliant to juxtapose the togetherness of the three before the Murdstones returned making it all the more heart breaking
Yes, I totally agree! This is the second time Dickens has eluded to a young character having a happy moment and then wishing they had died right there. This is such a moving scene, and the wishing for death adds a poignancy (and foreboding foreshadowing) that only makes it glow stronger. Both Davy and Em'ly seem to have their happiest moments in childhood. I guess it's all downhill from here...
I agree! It was a beautiful scene in an otherwise bleak section of the book.
David’s a good person who loves his mother so he’s excited about the baby. I was a little shocked by this as well, but it goes to show how much he cares for her. He’s excited to be home and share this piece of her. This was such a tender part of his homecoming.
I was surprised too, but I think it helped that Clara was excited for Davy to be involved with the new baby. She showed both of them such tender attention during this scene and I think Davy was just happy to be back with the loving version of his family.
I was surprised by the reaction. My first instinct was that he would connect the baby with Mr. Murdstone first and not with his mother. It was a really pleasant surprise, but also sad in hindsight. It would probably be much easier for David if he never met him, knowing his brother's demise.
Being the infant half-brother of the main character in a Dickens novel is probably not a good health profile.
lol
I kept thinking "what's his name??"...then, "oh, nevermind, I guess it doesn't matter now"
His reaction shows his sensitive and loving nature—I thought this was a beautiful scene!
I don't think any kid welcomes another child suddenly like this. think David has to deal with so much that he was probably stunned, but having his Mother and Miss Peggoty there softened the surprise in a nice way.
I was surprised we got the scene at all. I expected Clara to die in childbirth at some point while Davy was at school. (It's what she worried about in the beginning of the book when Davy was born and we get several instances of the Murdstones commenting on her weakness and helplessness, which I assumed were both emotional and physical characteristics.) So meeting the baby was a surprise to me and I am so happy Davy got this moment with his mom! I think Davy reacted so well to the baby because, at that point, anything that made his mom happy would've pleased Davy. He just wanted peace and happiness to return to their lives, and probably saw the joy the baby had brought Clara.
How do you think David copes with the news of his mothers death?
This part was so tragic. He really did not see this coming. He copes with it as best he can. I would say that his new circumstances are even more tragic than his mother’s passing itself. The moment where he waits for others to leave and the sounds of the factory assembly line to drown out the sounds of his sobs was so heartbreaking to read.
I was struck by two things: one, by the way David links the death of his baby brother with the death of his own childhood, which essentially gets buried along with his mother. This was an incredibly affecting metaphor and image for me. And two: David's decision to remember his mother as she was in his early childhood as a young, beautiful, and loving mother. So on the one hand, David's child-self is dead and buried with his little brother, but on the other hand, his mother lives on in his memory and is young forever. I predict this image of his youthful mother and her love for him will be an ideal he will always yearn and strive to return to, but it will most likely be impossible.
Beautifully said! I wonder if he will seek out a partner that reminds him of this ideal.
Well said! I completely agree, and I hope David can carry that image of his mother with him into adulthood. It was so nice that he was able to put aside the Murdstone version of his mom on the end, and remember her happily.
As naturally as any young boy would in a similar situation.
It is a bleak feeling. He copes as best he can. I think having flash backs to the mourning and sorrow of that time throughout the book would do it justice.
What do you think caused David’s mothers death?
I think she was horribly depressed from her living situation. She also had to feel terrible as a mother seeing she couldn’t even have a relationship with David. She felt hopeless with no way out for her and the baby and I imagine didn’t want to raise another child in that environment. She may have also had some postpartum depression. She just basically gave up caring for herself. The loss of the baby was such a sad outcome.
I agree with this sentiment that her circumstances and postpartum depression lead to poor health. If people are constantly hovering around telling you that you’re inferior as a mother and a homemaker, that has to eat away at your self worth.
It's so sad when you put it all together like that.
She gave up on life. Things must have been bad for her. She maybe had all her hopes riding on Mr. Murdstone, but then she likely realized that Mr. and Miss Murdstone were going to control all the things about her raising the new baby as well.
Honestly, I think she was beaten to death by Murdstone. Or at least to ill health in her depressed state.
> beaten to death by Murdstone. I did wonder about this since the baby also seemed affected. Murdstone seems like the kind of guy who would meet Clara's emotions - whether tears over missing Davy or complaints about pregnancy symptoms or postpartum depression - with physical abuse as a lesson in how to be "stronger" and in control of oneself. If she was beaten while pregnant, they both could've languished because of it.
I assume mental health concerns are key here, as well as potentially nutritional deprivation, because I guarantee the Murdstones would not indulge a pregnant or nursing woman with extra calories. And also, just a broken heart.
Peggotty says she will never marry because she will not leave Clara or David. What do you think of her reasons? Is she right to be so selfless?
I think Peggotty was trying her best to protect them both. The nasty Murdstone's certainly didn't make this easy, but she made sure Clara had a peaceful death, and she always tries to bring comfort to David.
I got the impression that Peggotty had romantic attraction to Clara! And by extension, she loved David too. The reason why she was so opposing to Clara's marriage to Mr. Murdstone was because she was jealous and didn't want Clara to be with anyone else.
Oooh interesting view! She was certainly very loyal to Clara and David, so you never know, you could be on to something...
Yes, it just clicked to me when Clara asked her if Peggotty would marry someday, she just laughed it off and saying she'll never marry. She ignored Mr. Barkis approach as long as Clara lived. When Clara passed away, Peggotty acted like she lost her love. When she finally accepted Mr. Barkis' proposal, it's after she got laid off and had no idea what to do next. Even the wedding felt like a formality just to get on with it.
I love this theory! I felt like David was essentially raised by two moms in a fairly equal partnership until the Murdstones showed up.
I thought the same thing!
In other gay vibes, I felt like David had a thing for Steerforth
Oh yeah, I got that vibe too! XD
He does talk a lot about how handsome he was!
It makes me feel a tenderness towards her. I can't believe that she would give up her life to stay with Clara and David. Was she sending money back to Mr. Peggotty?
>Was she sending money back to Mr. Peggotty? I also wondered this! Mr. Peggoty and Ham would need to be very successful fishermen to support a widow and two orphans, including Em'ly's school fees, even in that humble home.
Are you surprised at Murdstone sending David off to work in the factory? What do you think of David’s life there? Is he coping ok?
He seems to be coping remarkably well for such a young boy. He doesn't seem badly treated per se, just very long hours. I'm slightly shocked by how much booze he packs away though!
My nephew is 11, he's a wonderful kid and super smart, but he's a KID. Life started so much earlier in those days. I think it's wonderful that kids can be kids for so long now. I think David is inclined to take bad news and bad circumstances calmly and way better than most adults. I think for his circumstances he is honestly doing wonderful and making connections with the Micawbers, while not the most influential people, shows David's ability to be caring and thoughtful with people who show him affection.
> Life started so much earlier in those days. Yes, modern life has sort of invented childhood and adolescence. It used to be school (often not for long) and then straight to the workforce.
I’m not surprised that Murdstone is using this opportunity to turn a profit based on his character. I’m also not surprised that the book includes this based on what I know of Dickens. He was staunchly against the exploitation of the poor and Victorian workhouses. He wrote often on welfare reform.
He is absolutely making the most of it. His curiosity and relience are pretty impressive. These qualities bring a lot of light and positivity to some pretty dismal circumstances. While I was much older, his descriptions of finding his way around in all the London sights and sounds reminded me of going away to college in San Francisco in my late teems. Dickens describes that sense of adventure and newness in a big city so well.
>Dickens describes that sense of adventure and newness in a big city so well. This is so true! I wasn't happy for Davy, but for us as readers, I was excited to get to London and read Dickens' city descriptions!
I think being away from the Murdstones is a plus no matter where you go. Davy is coping remarkably well given that he had no one preparing him for the real world. You can tell he has become a little more mature and aware now because we aren't getting scenes of him being taken complete advantage of and being clueless about it. I'm honestly sort of surprised that Murdstone felt any responsibility for Davy and didn't just put him out on the street. I guess he saw an easy source of labor. Plus, I do think he loved Clara in his own twisted way, so this could be his warm and generous tribute to her memory. Awww!
How old is he? He's growing up fast. He almost sounds like an adult in the way he engages with other people and seems to be a source of support for the Micawbers.
Why do you think David rents a room close to the debtors prison where the Micawber family end up?
David is desperate for connection to others at this point. Little gent is not making friends at the factory. It makes sense that he wants to be near to the Micawbers, even though they haven’t been all that wonderful.
This! He has no connections to anyone he likes, other than Peggoty. Anything that looks like stability is better than continual disruption and rootlessness.
this is basically his new adopted family and they treat him well. They're all he has at this point.
Is there anything else you would like to discuss?
The scene in Mr Omer’s establishment was really great, so funny and poignant. I liked this comment, “Fashions are like human beings. They come in, nobody knows when, why, or how; and they go out, nobody knows when, why, or how. Everything is like life, in my opinion, if you look at it in that point of view.” Heidi Klum couldn’t have put it better. And the Joram and Minnie flirtation was so memorable. Just so amazing how Dickens can create these indelible characters with a few strokes of his pen.
I loved them, too! When the adults were trying to decide what to do with David, I really hoped he could end up as an apprentice to the Omers! But alas.
I love Mr. Peggotty and co. and love little David's fondness for them, but my mental image of them is that they clearly don't have much money. It struck me that right away David refers to Mr. Micawber and his family/house as shabby, whereas he is just in constant awe of the Peggotty's. It makes wonder what the actual difference between the living and financial situations of the two families are and what exactly gives off 'shabby' as a first impression.
This is a really good point. I'm guessing it boils down to two things: First of all, despite their poverty, the Peggottys are more or less a stable and happy family. Things aren't perfect, Em'ly misses her parents and Mrs. Gummidge obviously has severe depression due to grief, but there isn't the air of desperation that the Micawbers have. I'd be surprised if Mr. Peggotty was in any danger of being shipped off to a debtor's prison. I also think that for a child like David (and, let's be honest, for most of us readers) it's really easy to romanticize the Peggottys. There was a discussion question last week about their boat house, and everyone seemed to be in agreement that it would be really cool to live in a house like that. No one mentioned that converting a boat into a house isn't something you'd do if you could afford an actual house, especially if you had a family of that size. And I'm not saying this to criticize anyone who replied to that question. I also think, under the right circumstances, it would be fun to live somewhere like that, like a seaside version of cottagecore. But in the Peggottys' case, it was clearly the result of poverty, not an aesthetic choice. I can see how David might not grasp that.
I completely agree, and the only thing I'll add is that Peggotty is basically a second mom to David whom he's known his whole life. He is bound to view anything connected to her with a loving and charitable eye. The Micawbers start out as strangers and even though they treat David kindly, they don't have that shared history to add a shine to their circumstances in his eyes.
At the end of this section, David realizes he is getting pretty shabby too.
What’s up with Little Emily? I guess she’s going through that thing where all preteen girls become giggly and twisted for a few years before hormones sorts them out. I was hoping she would comfort David more in his present circumstances.
Honestly, nine is way too young to be tied down into a romantic relationship, so I can understand her wanting some distance from David! I also wonder if she doesn't quite know how to treat him since his mom died; plenty of adults struggle with that, so it could be even harder for a child. Though on the other hand, she's an orphan herself so you'd think she could empathize with him a bit more.
She makes David so happy that he could forget his trouble and just fall in love. It is very sweet.
Silly and unrelated to anything: when I started this book I had the vague impression that David was supposed to be an orphan from my knowledge of the literary canon. I started reading and convinced myself that I must be mistaken because Clara’s such a lovely mother to him; I figured I mixed it up with Oliver Twist or some other Dickens. Imagine my surprise when David was called to the office to learn his mother is dying… this wrecked me.
“Dying. Well, actually she’s dead.” Reminds me of the old joke about ‘grandma being on the roof’. If you’ve somehow been spared this old groaner, here’s one version of it: https://www.lessannoyingbusiness.com/post/the-cats-on-the-roof
I love this!
It was really sad, her death was certainly unexpected, I had expected some kind of hint that she was ill, but to just die like that was really unexpected.
I forgot to mention this last week, but I loved the preface, where Dickens talked about how much this book means to him and how much he loved writing it. You can really feel his emotions in it. I went into this book without knowing anything about it, but I know just enough about Dickens's life to know that parts of this book (like David being sent to work at such a young age) are autobiographical. That just makes the preface even more poignant. I've read that Dickens was unable to discuss that part of his childhood because it upset him so badly, so the fact that he could get it out by writing this story is amazing.
Dickens really does incorporate a lot of details from his own life, which probably explains why so many of his stories have overlapping themes and tropes
Yes, the preface was very touching! ❤️ I'm so glad you mentioned it. You can tell how personal this book was to Dickens! It's his baby!
I'm confused: did David actually get his teeth filed, or did they just say that to scare him? When I was about David's age, I read the Great Illustrated Classics version of this book, and I remember absolutely nothing except for the sentence "They filed my teeth and made me wear a sign that said 'Be careful, he bites.'" That sentence horrified me because I couldn't imagine that not causing lifelong damage to his teeth (he'd have adult front teeth by that age, right?) The actual book makes it sound like sarcasm, though, so I'm wondering if the author of the Great Illustrated Classics version misunderstood that scene.
This is a great question. My Google searches mostly uncovered David Copperfield, the magician, talking about cosmetic dentistry. 🤣🤦🏻♀️ I assumed it was to scare him, but you never know with Dickens' villians...
Dickens captures very small emotional details very well. There are many examples, but one is when David after he learns of his mother's death, pretends to be "ok" with the boys at school and writes how it gave him feel good not to take advantage of the attention and "take the same notice of them all." It contrasts subtly with Steerforth who would instead use the attention for his ego.
Dickens really seems to incorporate a lot of psychological reflections that seem quite advanced for his time
He illustrates the humanity and contrast of each character without being overly descriptive of their physical features, setting the atmosphere through each person's unique disposition. Such wonderful writing.
I love that Peggotty asked Davy's opinion on her getting married and that he attended her wedding. Unlike when Clara got married, Davy was sent away, didn't know it was happening, and didn't attend the wedding. When I was in high school, my mom got engaged before I had met her now husband. I have always had a seed of resentment over not being included in this big decision. So this really resonated with me to show how much Peggotty cares for Davy and how loving their relationship is.
When Davy saw his mother for the last time when he was leaving for school it reads... >*...she stood at the garden-gate alone, holding her baby up in her arms for me to see. It was cold still weather; and not a hair of her head, or a fold of her dress, was stirred, as she looked intently at me, holding up her child.* Uh, what was this about? Why the holding the child up? Is this some metaphor/foreshadowing/something I don't get?
I interpreted this as half metaphor and half real memory. The real memory is that Davy's mom is trying to show some love and connection as he leaves, in the only way she was allowed - silently and from afar. He wasn't allowed near the baby, and she is showing she does want Davy to remember and feel connected to his brother. The metaphor to me was that she holds the baby aloft as a beacon would be held up, to signal across distances that Davy should remember them and that her love extends and follows him. That could be a bit of over-interpretation on my part, but I almost pictured the baby as shining a message out to Davy - *We love you, remember us.* I saw it as possibly Davy's memory being exaggerated in retrospect since it was the last time he saw them.
I really like this take, thank you for sharing. I hadn’t considered the fact that this is from his memory and isn’t necessarily 100% factually accurate.
Thanks! I'm glad it helps with interpretation. 🙂
Mr Peggotty and Ham visit David at school, what does it tell us that they are his first and only visitors? Can you picture Steerforth visiting the Peggott’s on the house boat?
I feel very protective of Mr. Peggotty and want Steerforth kept far away from him. He gives me pretentious, condescending a-hole vibes and doesn't deserve to see the house boat.
Mr Peggotty and Ham are good, honest men. I would’ve liked it better if David had been sent to live with them instead of Salem House. But I guess the idea was to punish him, not reward him. I hope David learns more from their good nature than from Steerforth.
Them being the first visitors spoke to the fact that the Peggotys are Davy's only real support system left. It highlights how Murdstone controls the household so tightly that neither Davy's mom nor Peggoty herself could come visit. I also think there's a subtle point here about the lack of freedom women had relative to men at that time. Traveling alone would probably have been harder or less approved for Peggoty than for her brother and Ham. They also had means of transport (the boat) while she had no such resource available.
The Peggottys are David's real family now. The Murdstone's stole his mom away from him. I don't picture Steerforth visiting the Peggottys but it could happen!