4. Alfonso at a certain point is described as [Janus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus). We have seen a more violent side surfacing. Do you agree with this interpretation? Is he a double-faced person?
Yeah he is creepy AF now. I take back my comment last week that he was a good guy in a bad political situation. He seems almost sociopathic now - glib, false charm, manipulative, lack of empathy.
Alfonso is certainly two-faced, but in a much more sinister way than Janus. The two faces of the Roman god are symbolic of beginnings and endings, the past and the future. Alfonso’s two faces are what he wants others to see him as - magnanimous, gregarious, and in control - and how he achieves this image - an unbending will and an iron fist.
Same, I feel like the author really put us in Lucrezia’s very uncomfortable shoes in that part. Like wtf does he want? Why is he asking? What is she supposed to say??
It definitely seems that way. We’ve seen how he goes off the deep end when Lucrezia puts her hand out the window, and his lack of concern when Leonello beats the servant. He’s also unwilling to reveal anything of his dealings with his Mum/sisters to Lucrezia, not feeling like that’s a part of himself she needs to know about.
It makes it a very imbalanced relationship where Lucrezia must meet every expectation Alfonso has of him, while he is unwilling to show even the slightest vulnerability to her.
I do wonder what it is that sends him over the edge so that he decides to kill her (?) - given her importance to him in producing a legitimate heir.
I agree! I also wonder if Jacopo comes back and she shows any hint of interest/friendship/connection with him... Alfonso already seems to police his sister, so I doubt he'd enjoy a paimter catching the Duchess's eye, even platonically.
This is a perfect description of Alfonso. The nice side he likes to break out to either get his way or to show everyone his "wonderful relationship" vs his reality of being controlling and abusive.
He reads as a psychopath to me. They can be charming when they need/want to be, but it's all a mask; there's no real empathy there. There were several instances in this section where it seemed like a literal switch was flipped from kind to angry, or vise versa, how he was able to go from one extreme to the other.
I think he is a Janus to people based on whether they are acting according to his intended order. He seems insecure in his rule so he's trying to show himself as confident and strong, so he has to micromanage a lot to maintain this image, even to the point of violence.
Well..... I will eat my words from the previous discussion. All of them. I waan't sure at the laat discussion if we were getting the whole story (we weren't it is so much worse!!) so wanted to withold judgement. There is no denying these great big red flags. Alfonso is terrifying, abusive, unstable. Poor Lucretzia. She is trying so hard to placate him and be a good wife but he is just so awful to her. He's definitely 2 faced. One face for the public and the other for his wofe, sisters mother etc
3. Lucrezia often paints some non-traditional images and then covers them with common subjects. Why does she do this? What are other unconventional things she does?
I wonder if this is symbolic of her keeping a part of herself hidden, she hides the unconventional things she paints in the same way as she hides the unconventional part of herself.
I thought this section spoke the best to her work and how it reflects her inner self:
>She feels, not for the first time, a pulse of sadness that this image will disappear, will become just an underpainting, never to be seen by anyone other than her. But it must be so. No one should see this. An underpainting it must be. So she will conceal it with this most innocent and appropriate still life of fruit and honey.
Like her paintings, she has hidden depths that the rest of the world doesn't deserve to see. She's protecting the soft inner self and the deeper, more salacious images she creates. So she'll give the world the face and paintings they deem appropriate.
I agree! It is heartbreaking that she has never once met someone that she could trust enough to share this without feeling judged. Even with Emilia, the closest person in her life, she's still guarded. As time is running out, I'm afraid there won't be anyone until her death. Maybe Jacopo?
I agree with u/ProofPlant7651 that it is symbolic. At the end of *Honey Water* she thinks to herself
>If she is to survive this marriage, or perhaps even thrive within it, she must preserve this part of herself and keep it away from him, separate, sacred... He will never know it, never see it, never reach it. He shall not penetrate it.
Other unconventional things include befriending people below her station (Emilia, Jacopo) and not protesting unfairness or cruelty to the lower classes (the beaten boy, inwardly the castrated musicians). I haven't worked out yet if this is just her personality and upbringing or if it is also meant to show her immaturity and naiveté.
I vaguely remember seeing an article about how modern techniques can be used to see paintings beneath famous works without destroying them. I wonder if one of the real Lucrezia's pieces was found or if this is just poetic licence from O'Farell.
As an art history enthusiast, I love when that happens! I made a quick google search and couldn't find any painting made by Lucrezia, so I guess it's poetic licence.
I think Lucrezia and Jacopo seem to have an instant, undeniable connection, the fact that they have art in common means that their may be a mutual respect between them that Lucrezia doesn’t have with her husband and I do wonder if this will become significant as we near the end of the story.
I wonder if one of them will help save her somehow (before the murder, or her illness, or whatever becomes of her). He'll get her out or help with some other scandal maybe.
I love these characters and I especially love Lucrezia's instant connection with them. I hope so, not that there is an awful lot of hope for the remainder of the story!
6. Lucrezia decides that there will always be a part of her she will keep hidden to survive this marriage. What brings her to this decision? Do you think it’s wise?
I think keeping a part of herself hidden from her husband allows her to protect a part of herself from him but it also means that they will probably never fully understand one another and it probably will prevent them truly learning to love one another, keeping a part of herself separate could be a part of what leads to him killing her.
It is a means of survival for her. If she could give her full self to Alfonso and remain safe, I think she’d be open to it. She knows she will always lose in some way with him.
It will help Lucrezia survive emotionally in the short term, because Alfonso will keep demanding submission and make her suppress her ideas and personality. I do worry that it could cause Alfonso to be suspicious of her. He is always asking where she found out information, which sisters she sees most, what they do... I think Alfonso reads people and situations well and observes them closely. He'll notice that Lucrezia isn't being completely herself.
1. Lucrezia is experiencing a new freedom and seems to be enjoying it. She is also trying to behave as a good wife. How has she changed now that she is married?
She’s trying to figure out how much leeway she has. While she has some long stretches where her time is her own (something new for her) she also finds herself frequently bound up by social conventions and expectations she doesn’t quite understand or agree with, which is its own kind of imprisonment.
She seems to be making more connections (Elizabetta, specifically) and working on her painting skills. I like seeing her again confidence in herself and her work, even if she never shows it to anyone.
The scene where she was painting the peaches was so beautiful, I loved experiencing that feeling of full absorption and basically leaving the world with her
She’s in a no-win situation. If she tries to be useful to her husband or do any chores, she’s criticized. If she tries to give in to her artistic/natural side, she’s criticized. But she’s not given any social / public duties either. So the only thing that seems to be left is to wander around and kill time in meaningless chatter with the sisters.
Honestly I wonder about this a lot. Maybe it's that I just finished up Bridgerton but honestly I feel like people would generally get into a lot less trouble if they had something to do all day. I'm happy she's getting a chance to paint but as you said, she's criticized about it no matter what, so it's not fulfilling to her in the way it could be.
Her new position acts a kind of a double edged sword. She enjoys being able to engage in the court life to some extent, but it also puts her under greater scrutiny than she is used to so she has to temper her more carefree personality to please Alphonse.
Her situation has sort of flipped from childhood. In Florence, she was kept inside the walls of the castello, but how she spent her days were more to her liking because she could take painting lessons and visit the nursery, etc. In Ferrara, she has physical freedom to leave the castello for horseback rising and walks and as Dutchess she can decide where and when she goes, but her activities or time are much more limited to what her sisters-in-law drag her to (salons, subtle infighting) and what Alfonso wants from her (sitting for portraits, making babies).
In terms of her personality, Lucrè had learned to be more guarded and to keep a part of herself separate from the ugliness she has to endure. She thinks twice before all her actions and words, at first with Alfonso and Leo, but later with the sisters due to her mom's warning. It must be exhausting!
Lucrezia is nothing more than a possession to him, one that he needs to control at all times. There were red flags about him before, but now that they've spent time around each other, his true self is coming out.
It worried me when Lucrezia thought that he couldn't hurt others because he was so gentle to her mule. I wanted to tell her he was being gentle to the mule *at that moment.* If the mule had chosen not to listen, balked, or shown anything he deemed negative behavior, I believe we would have seen a very different side of Alphonso.
Great point about her mule! These little details are where we see Lucrezia's youth and inexperience coming through. She generalizes about him based on individual events, which she cherry picks, probably to make herself feel better.
This tells me Alfonso’s a narcissist who cares more about being in control. He shows one side of him in public, like when he puts his hand over Lucrezia’s at the festa; but in private that same gesture is controlling and restraining, like when he grabs her hand when she does not shut the window right away during the storm. And unfortunately, Lucrezia seems to be putting more stock into his public displays of affection. I don’t know if that’s because she’s young and naive, or if it’s because she was shown little affection by her family in Florence (or maybe a bit of both), but this does not bode well for her.
Alfonso put up a good front at the beginning but the kind facade has begun to wear off in this section. He cares a lot about his public image and how things will impact his political influence. Lucrezia seems to be on the receiving end of his temper when he does not get his way.
He has a particular view on what his wife should be and if Lucrezia doesn't stay in her lane then he gets aggressive.
While he does seem to genuinely love her to some extent, I think it's clear that he values her as a political tool more than anything else, and he puts his own vision of what she should be before her own wishes.
This is how I see it as well, I think he has a sort of affection towards her but it is because he expects a husband to love his wife, he doesn't see Lucrezia for what she really is or as a complete person.
I am no defender of Alfonso, but I get the feeling he is very much a product of his upbringing. He was raised to rule and to get what he wants, and as a grown man, he now has the political power and physical muscle to get it any way he chooses. Alfonso sees marriage as just another political arrangement (which honestly, is true) and so he approaches it similarly by asserting his will completely and expecting obeisance. He is self-centered and power-hungry and very concerned with perception. This makes sense considering his political position and the state of his family affairs. But it doesn't mean he has to be so cruel. He does not seem to realize that there are other ways to get his way and they don't all involve physical dominance and emotional blackmail. It is concerning that he can turn it on and off so easily, and seems to enjoy his power trips. He's bad news.
I’m not sure what to make of Elisabetta, I think she is perhaps just looking for more company but I really don’t trust Nunciata. The only thing that really makes me question Elisabetta’s motives is that she seems to be a fair bit older than Lucrezia and I wonder why she would be so eager for the company of such a young girl but otherwise I haven’t really picked up on anything to make me think her motives are anything but genuine. There’s something about Nunciata that I can’t put my finger on but she just doesn’t feel trustworthy.
Elisabetta did seem nice enough, but I think there’s an ulterior motive behind it, especially since Lucrezia knows about her fling with the guard. Eleanora made a very good point in her letter. Lucrezia should be wary. The two sisters are older and have been playing at court politics for far longer than Lucrezia has.
I think they both want to remain close with Lucrezia in hopes this will win the favor of their twisted, powerful brother. They will go much further with him than against him.
I agree, it has to do with the mess that it's happening at court right now. I think it was mentioned that Alfonso's mother wanted to go to France with all his sisters? This mean they are more involved in all the plotting than what Lucrezia is led to believe.
I think that others here are right in their assessment that Lucrezia's mother is right - the sisters have ulterior motives. In Elisabetta's case, it may be more for self-preservation due to her love affair - she could capitalize on Lucrezia's friendship and hope that the Duchess could protect her from the Duke. I'm not sure what Nunciata's goal is. Perhaps to keep Elisabetta from having more influence than her own, or to keep Lucrezia on her toes so she *can't* have the ear of the Duke in ways that would be bad for Nunciata.
I love Nunciata as a character! The snark, the dog, the rejection of the traditional feminine roles that Elisabetta seems to relish in. She is a lot of fun to read about! But it's not so fun to think of what she could do to Lucrezia if she wants to be mean.
I agree, Nunciata is fun to read about.
I don't know why, but your comment reminded me that Alfonso's sister warned Lucrezia about her brother. Do we know which sister it was? I'm listening to the audiobook, so I can't look it up easily.
He obviously doesn’t see her as his equal. It is easy to draw comparisons here between the relationships of Lucrezia and Alfonso and the relationship Lucrezia’s parents have with one another. Her parents relationship seems to be based on respect that just isn’t there between Lucrezia and Alfonso.
This seems to be another aspect of his regard for her as an accessory in his life. His political life is his to conduct, and not in partnership with his wife — her role is to look pretty, be charming, and bear children. I don’t think we’d view this so poorly if it weren’t for his other personality traits. I do give him a little leeway because we’re continually told how precarious his political position is, and again, we’d be more sympathetic to that if we ever saw him let his guard down a bit with Lucrezia.
I agree with everything you said. Minus the cruelty, and considering his political quagmire, the relationship would seem typical of the era and a Duchess's role at court. But he just has to be so, so mean! Grrr!
It goes straight back to his controlling ways. If he shows to Lucrezia that everything is fine in court, then she should believe him because that's how he has shaped the narrative. Acknowledging that he doesn't have a firm hold on the matter would mean that he's not living up to his own expectations. And that is *really* unacceptable for Alfonso.
Alfonso sees Lucrezia as a womb and a decoration, nothing more. She asks questions and wants to offer support, which he sees as inappropriate and annoying given that she is *just a lady*! I do not think things will get better because clearly, at the cabin, we've reached a whole new level of fear for Lucrezia!
In a way, I think the portrait is less about Lucrezia and more about Alfonso. He wants her portrait to show this beautiful, noble, worldly woman because he sees himself as handsome, noble, and worldly. He deserves nothing less than the best, and the canvas is his way of showing the illusion of equality, even if he does not consider Lucrezia to be his equal in reality.
Her outfit, accessories, posing etc. are all about perceptions and flattering the right people. It’s a political portrait rather than one driven by passion for the subject.
I think he'd prefer to be married to the painting, actually. Or at least to a mannequin that can be posed and spoken for and admired. I do think his micromanagement of her portrait demonstrates his need for complete control of her in their relationship- body, soul and spirit.
If there was one scene in this section of the book that made me smile, it was the reveal about Emilia. She’s practically Lucrezia’s sister, and it’s comforting to know she has someone close to her at court.
Yes, I'm glad she has her! Also that made me realize I was confused before and thought Sofia and her milk-mother were one and the same- oops! I'm glad she has a bit of comfort from home with her in Emilia.
So there was this line when Lucrezia was meeting the sisters for the first time that highlighted for me just how young she was.
>Lucrezia stands there, in her traveling dress, in her fifteen-year-old skin.
Sometimes I felt she was older, but that line made it hard to escape just how young she is. And for her to be going through this marriage at that age? I get that's what had been done historically, but that doesn't mean that biologically (or even mentally) Lucrezia was an adult. Her reactions, especially when it came to sex, are really put into perspective.
I wonder if the way society worked back then shaped the growth of our brain. I know that, for example, it isn't completely able to process stress before we are 25, was it also true back then? Or did the necessity to enter adult age early change its development? This is valid for the other biological aspects as well.
This is a really interesting question! I feel like everyone would be walking around traumatized. It's probably a bit of brain chemistry evolution and also an adjustment of expectations - when you expect life to be this way and it isn't out of the ordinary, it might not hit as hard as we view it from 2024!
No real excuses for what we’ve seen out of Alfonso so far, but Lucrezia doesn’t seem to be a very good choice as a wife in this kind of situation. Not only is she still in her mid-teens, but her parents don’t seem to have prepared her very well to be married off into a situation where she has no agency or power, but does have very defined public roles. It reminds me of the women who have married into the British Monarchy in recent history — Diana and Meghan struggled while Kate seems more sophisticated at fitting in.
I agree, they had years to prepare her. But let's face it, her parents probably didn't care. What's the worst that could happen anyway, it's not like her husband would kill her, right? 🙄
Lucrezia’s and Emilia’s appearances have been said to be similar a couple times now. I’m wondering if that will factor into the ending? A place swap or something? Prob a long shot but maybe 😅
I keep wondering this, too! Will she try to escape by having Emilia fill in for her somehow? Why else would O'Farrell mention it a few times?!
ETA: Another long shot because there's not much time or purpose for a reveal like this, but, given that they look alike, could Lucrezia's dad have been Emilia's dad? They mentioned a Swiss soldier, but that could've been a story to cover for him. It'd put a new element of harsh reality into the example she thinks her parents' marriage sets.
Ohhhhh good spot. I was thinking about the similarity in their appearances was going to be relevent with a swapping of places, but now I am wondering if this is what we are supposed to take from the reference.
I think there was an implied threat from someone (a sister) earlier in the book of "he'll blame you" to Lucrezia. Could Alfonso know about Elisabetta's affair and find out that Lucrezia knew and didn't tell him? If Elisabetta embarrasses Alfonso and Lucrezia could've stopped it, she'll definitely be put on the murder train.
4. Alfonso at a certain point is described as [Janus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus). We have seen a more violent side surfacing. Do you agree with this interpretation? Is he a double-faced person?
Yeah he is creepy AF now. I take back my comment last week that he was a good guy in a bad political situation. He seems almost sociopathic now - glib, false charm, manipulative, lack of empathy.
My thoughts exactly, it's textbook psychopathy/sociopathy.
Yes I agree entirely! Sociopath for sure
Alfonso is certainly two-faced, but in a much more sinister way than Janus. The two faces of the Roman god are symbolic of beginnings and endings, the past and the future. Alfonso’s two faces are what he wants others to see him as - magnanimous, gregarious, and in control - and how he achieves this image - an unbending will and an iron fist.
He seems to be capable of wicked things. The way he tries to get information about Elisabetta at the end of this section made me uneasy.
Same, I feel like the author really put us in Lucrezia’s very uncomfortable shoes in that part. Like wtf does he want? Why is he asking? What is she supposed to say??
It definitely seems that way. We’ve seen how he goes off the deep end when Lucrezia puts her hand out the window, and his lack of concern when Leonello beats the servant. He’s also unwilling to reveal anything of his dealings with his Mum/sisters to Lucrezia, not feeling like that’s a part of himself she needs to know about. It makes it a very imbalanced relationship where Lucrezia must meet every expectation Alfonso has of him, while he is unwilling to show even the slightest vulnerability to her. I do wonder what it is that sends him over the edge so that he decides to kill her (?) - given her importance to him in producing a legitimate heir.
My guess is she won’t get pregnant and it will be the lack of heir that will send him over the murder cliff
I agree! I also wonder if Jacopo comes back and she shows any hint of interest/friendship/connection with him... Alfonso already seems to police his sister, so I doubt he'd enjoy a paimter catching the Duchess's eye, even platonically.
Totally agree!
This is a perfect description of Alfonso. The nice side he likes to break out to either get his way or to show everyone his "wonderful relationship" vs his reality of being controlling and abusive.
He reads as a psychopath to me. They can be charming when they need/want to be, but it's all a mask; there's no real empathy there. There were several instances in this section where it seemed like a literal switch was flipped from kind to angry, or vise versa, how he was able to go from one extreme to the other.
I think he is a Janus to people based on whether they are acting according to his intended order. He seems insecure in his rule so he's trying to show himself as confident and strong, so he has to micromanage a lot to maintain this image, even to the point of violence.
Well..... I will eat my words from the previous discussion. All of them. I waan't sure at the laat discussion if we were getting the whole story (we weren't it is so much worse!!) so wanted to withold judgement. There is no denying these great big red flags. Alfonso is terrifying, abusive, unstable. Poor Lucretzia. She is trying so hard to placate him and be a good wife but he is just so awful to her. He's definitely 2 faced. One face for the public and the other for his wofe, sisters mother etc
3. Lucrezia often paints some non-traditional images and then covers them with common subjects. Why does she do this? What are other unconventional things she does?
I wonder if this is symbolic of her keeping a part of herself hidden, she hides the unconventional things she paints in the same way as she hides the unconventional part of herself.
I think this is right on. She is creating a secret world for herself.
I thought this section spoke the best to her work and how it reflects her inner self: >She feels, not for the first time, a pulse of sadness that this image will disappear, will become just an underpainting, never to be seen by anyone other than her. But it must be so. No one should see this. An underpainting it must be. So she will conceal it with this most innocent and appropriate still life of fruit and honey. Like her paintings, she has hidden depths that the rest of the world doesn't deserve to see. She's protecting the soft inner self and the deeper, more salacious images she creates. So she'll give the world the face and paintings they deem appropriate.
Great point! I completely agree with you there.
Good analysis, I agree!
I agree! It is heartbreaking that she has never once met someone that she could trust enough to share this without feeling judged. Even with Emilia, the closest person in her life, she's still guarded. As time is running out, I'm afraid there won't be anyone until her death. Maybe Jacopo?
Wow! Thank you for pulling out this quote. Very powerful
I agree with u/ProofPlant7651 that it is symbolic. At the end of *Honey Water* she thinks to herself >If she is to survive this marriage, or perhaps even thrive within it, she must preserve this part of herself and keep it away from him, separate, sacred... He will never know it, never see it, never reach it. He shall not penetrate it. Other unconventional things include befriending people below her station (Emilia, Jacopo) and not protesting unfairness or cruelty to the lower classes (the beaten boy, inwardly the castrated musicians). I haven't worked out yet if this is just her personality and upbringing or if it is also meant to show her immaturity and naiveté.
I vaguely remember seeing an article about how modern techniques can be used to see paintings beneath famous works without destroying them. I wonder if one of the real Lucrezia's pieces was found or if this is just poetic licence from O'Farell.
As an art history enthusiast, I love when that happens! I made a quick google search and couldn't find any painting made by Lucrezia, so I guess it's poetic licence.
Thanks for looking. I am a little disappointed though now lol
5. Soooo Maurizio and Jacopo. They look nice! What about the connection between Lucrezia and Jacopo? Do you think it will play a role in the future?
I think Lucrezia and Jacopo seem to have an instant, undeniable connection, the fact that they have art in common means that their may be a mutual respect between them that Lucrezia doesn’t have with her husband and I do wonder if this will become significant as we near the end of the story.
I am also very curious to see if their connection will be significant somehow!
I wonder if one of them will help save her somehow (before the murder, or her illness, or whatever becomes of her). He'll get her out or help with some other scandal maybe.
Interesting theory! That would be nice symmetry if he saved her, since she saved him when they first met.
I love these characters and I especially love Lucrezia's instant connection with them. I hope so, not that there is an awful lot of hope for the remainder of the story!
6. Lucrezia decides that there will always be a part of her she will keep hidden to survive this marriage. What brings her to this decision? Do you think it’s wise?
I think keeping a part of herself hidden from her husband allows her to protect a part of herself from him but it also means that they will probably never fully understand one another and it probably will prevent them truly learning to love one another, keeping a part of herself separate could be a part of what leads to him killing her.
Interesting! I definitely could see this being a key to her downfall.
It is a means of survival for her. If she could give her full self to Alfonso and remain safe, I think she’d be open to it. She knows she will always lose in some way with him.
It's really the best decision for her because Alphonso will tear and tear at her until she is little more than a shell of herself.
She does it as a result of his violence. I think it's wise as far as staying alive, but if she doesn't come up with something it will become a torture
It will help Lucrezia survive emotionally in the short term, because Alfonso will keep demanding submission and make her suppress her ideas and personality. I do worry that it could cause Alfonso to be suspicious of her. He is always asking where she found out information, which sisters she sees most, what they do... I think Alfonso reads people and situations well and observes them closely. He'll notice that Lucrezia isn't being completely herself.
I agree, he makes me so anxious when he does that! Especially because Lucrezia has no idea of how to behave in those moments.
Her discomfort is palpable. It is very nerve-wracking, I agree!
She is still so young!
It's survival. She's a clever girl and stronger than probably even she herself realises.
1. Lucrezia is experiencing a new freedom and seems to be enjoying it. She is also trying to behave as a good wife. How has she changed now that she is married?
She’s trying to figure out how much leeway she has. While she has some long stretches where her time is her own (something new for her) she also finds herself frequently bound up by social conventions and expectations she doesn’t quite understand or agree with, which is its own kind of imprisonment.
She seems to be making more connections (Elizabetta, specifically) and working on her painting skills. I like seeing her again confidence in herself and her work, even if she never shows it to anyone.
The scene where she was painting the peaches was so beautiful, I loved experiencing that feeling of full absorption and basically leaving the world with her
Her inner thoughts reveal things she wishes she could say but refrains from. She didn’t seem to have this kind of filter growing up.
She’s in a no-win situation. If she tries to be useful to her husband or do any chores, she’s criticized. If she tries to give in to her artistic/natural side, she’s criticized. But she’s not given any social / public duties either. So the only thing that seems to be left is to wander around and kill time in meaningless chatter with the sisters.
Honestly I wonder about this a lot. Maybe it's that I just finished up Bridgerton but honestly I feel like people would generally get into a lot less trouble if they had something to do all day. I'm happy she's getting a chance to paint but as you said, she's criticized about it no matter what, so it's not fulfilling to her in the way it could be.
This was also a recurring thing for >!Margaret!< in The Crown. I wonder if it really was the way the English monarchy worked back then.
What's the saying? Even a guilded cage is still just a cage! Poor Lucrezia
Her new position acts a kind of a double edged sword. She enjoys being able to engage in the court life to some extent, but it also puts her under greater scrutiny than she is used to so she has to temper her more carefree personality to please Alphonse.
Her situation has sort of flipped from childhood. In Florence, she was kept inside the walls of the castello, but how she spent her days were more to her liking because she could take painting lessons and visit the nursery, etc. In Ferrara, she has physical freedom to leave the castello for horseback rising and walks and as Dutchess she can decide where and when she goes, but her activities or time are much more limited to what her sisters-in-law drag her to (salons, subtle infighting) and what Alfonso wants from her (sitting for portraits, making babies). In terms of her personality, Lucrè had learned to be more guarded and to keep a part of herself separate from the ugliness she has to endure. She thinks twice before all her actions and words, at first with Alfonso and Leo, but later with the sisters due to her mom's warning. It must be exhausting!
2. Alfonso reacts very aggressively to Lucrezia on more than one occasion. How does he view their relationship and what does this tell us about him?
Lucrezia is nothing more than a possession to him, one that he needs to control at all times. There were red flags about him before, but now that they've spent time around each other, his true self is coming out. It worried me when Lucrezia thought that he couldn't hurt others because he was so gentle to her mule. I wanted to tell her he was being gentle to the mule *at that moment.* If the mule had chosen not to listen, balked, or shown anything he deemed negative behavior, I believe we would have seen a very different side of Alphonso.
This is about as well as I could have said it!
Great point about her mule! These little details are where we see Lucrezia's youth and inexperience coming through. She generalizes about him based on individual events, which she cherry picks, probably to make herself feel better.
This tells me Alfonso’s a narcissist who cares more about being in control. He shows one side of him in public, like when he puts his hand over Lucrezia’s at the festa; but in private that same gesture is controlling and restraining, like when he grabs her hand when she does not shut the window right away during the storm. And unfortunately, Lucrezia seems to be putting more stock into his public displays of affection. I don’t know if that’s because she’s young and naive, or if it’s because she was shown little affection by her family in Florence (or maybe a bit of both), but this does not bode well for her.
Alfonso put up a good front at the beginning but the kind facade has begun to wear off in this section. He cares a lot about his public image and how things will impact his political influence. Lucrezia seems to be on the receiving end of his temper when he does not get his way.
He has a particular view on what his wife should be and if Lucrezia doesn't stay in her lane then he gets aggressive. While he does seem to genuinely love her to some extent, I think it's clear that he values her as a political tool more than anything else, and he puts his own vision of what she should be before her own wishes.
This is how I see it as well, I think he has a sort of affection towards her but it is because he expects a husband to love his wife, he doesn't see Lucrezia for what she really is or as a complete person.
I am no defender of Alfonso, but I get the feeling he is very much a product of his upbringing. He was raised to rule and to get what he wants, and as a grown man, he now has the political power and physical muscle to get it any way he chooses. Alfonso sees marriage as just another political arrangement (which honestly, is true) and so he approaches it similarly by asserting his will completely and expecting obeisance. He is self-centered and power-hungry and very concerned with perception. This makes sense considering his political position and the state of his family affairs. But it doesn't mean he has to be so cruel. He does not seem to realize that there are other ways to get his way and they don't all involve physical dominance and emotional blackmail. It is concerning that he can turn it on and off so easily, and seems to enjoy his power trips. He's bad news.
I think your analysis is on point!
7. What is your impression of Alfonso’s sisters? What are they up to?
I’m not sure what to make of Elisabetta, I think she is perhaps just looking for more company but I really don’t trust Nunciata. The only thing that really makes me question Elisabetta’s motives is that she seems to be a fair bit older than Lucrezia and I wonder why she would be so eager for the company of such a young girl but otherwise I haven’t really picked up on anything to make me think her motives are anything but genuine. There’s something about Nunciata that I can’t put my finger on but she just doesn’t feel trustworthy.
Elisabetta did seem nice enough, but I think there’s an ulterior motive behind it, especially since Lucrezia knows about her fling with the guard. Eleanora made a very good point in her letter. Lucrezia should be wary. The two sisters are older and have been playing at court politics for far longer than Lucrezia has.
Yeah I think her mother is spot on in her assessment.
Agreed! Her mother knows what's really going on. It was good advice!
I think they both want to remain close with Lucrezia in hopes this will win the favor of their twisted, powerful brother. They will go much further with him than against him.
I agree, it has to do with the mess that it's happening at court right now. I think it was mentioned that Alfonso's mother wanted to go to France with all his sisters? This mean they are more involved in all the plotting than what Lucrezia is led to believe.
I think that others here are right in their assessment that Lucrezia's mother is right - the sisters have ulterior motives. In Elisabetta's case, it may be more for self-preservation due to her love affair - she could capitalize on Lucrezia's friendship and hope that the Duchess could protect her from the Duke. I'm not sure what Nunciata's goal is. Perhaps to keep Elisabetta from having more influence than her own, or to keep Lucrezia on her toes so she *can't* have the ear of the Duke in ways that would be bad for Nunciata. I love Nunciata as a character! The snark, the dog, the rejection of the traditional feminine roles that Elisabetta seems to relish in. She is a lot of fun to read about! But it's not so fun to think of what she could do to Lucrezia if she wants to be mean.
I agree, Nunciata is fun to read about. I don't know why, but your comment reminded me that Alfonso's sister warned Lucrezia about her brother. Do we know which sister it was? I'm listening to the audiobook, so I can't look it up easily.
I don't remember which sister, either... my money would be on Nunciata.
8. Why does Alfonso want to keep the political situation at court hidden from Lucrezia? How do you think things will evolve?
He obviously doesn’t see her as his equal. It is easy to draw comparisons here between the relationships of Lucrezia and Alfonso and the relationship Lucrezia’s parents have with one another. Her parents relationship seems to be based on respect that just isn’t there between Lucrezia and Alfonso.
This seems to be another aspect of his regard for her as an accessory in his life. His political life is his to conduct, and not in partnership with his wife — her role is to look pretty, be charming, and bear children. I don’t think we’d view this so poorly if it weren’t for his other personality traits. I do give him a little leeway because we’re continually told how precarious his political position is, and again, we’d be more sympathetic to that if we ever saw him let his guard down a bit with Lucrezia.
I agree with everything you said. Minus the cruelty, and considering his political quagmire, the relationship would seem typical of the era and a Duchess's role at court. But he just has to be so, so mean! Grrr!
It goes straight back to his controlling ways. If he shows to Lucrezia that everything is fine in court, then she should believe him because that's how he has shaped the narrative. Acknowledging that he doesn't have a firm hold on the matter would mean that he's not living up to his own expectations. And that is *really* unacceptable for Alfonso.
Alfonso sees Lucrezia as a womb and a decoration, nothing more. She asks questions and wants to offer support, which he sees as inappropriate and annoying given that she is *just a lady*! I do not think things will get better because clearly, at the cabin, we've reached a whole new level of fear for Lucrezia!
9. Alfonso has a clear idea of how he wants Lucrezia’s portrait to be. What is it? Do you think this also somehow reflects their relationship?
In a way, I think the portrait is less about Lucrezia and more about Alfonso. He wants her portrait to show this beautiful, noble, worldly woman because he sees himself as handsome, noble, and worldly. He deserves nothing less than the best, and the canvas is his way of showing the illusion of equality, even if he does not consider Lucrezia to be his equal in reality.
Her outfit, accessories, posing etc. are all about perceptions and flattering the right people. It’s a political portrait rather than one driven by passion for the subject.
I think he'd prefer to be married to the painting, actually. Or at least to a mannequin that can be posed and spoken for and admired. I do think his micromanagement of her portrait demonstrates his need for complete control of her in their relationship- body, soul and spirit.
10. Anything else you would like to discuss?
If there was one scene in this section of the book that made me smile, it was the reveal about Emilia. She’s practically Lucrezia’s sister, and it’s comforting to know she has someone close to her at court.
I really like Emilia! She is a good person and Lucrezia would be lost without her.
Yes, this scene was so nice!
Yes, I'm glad she has her! Also that made me realize I was confused before and thought Sofia and her milk-mother were one and the same- oops! I'm glad she has a bit of comfort from home with her in Emilia.
I loved this little surprise - they're milk sisters!
I just want her to run away with the cute painter (the one who is mute, can’t remember his name right now). They seem like they get each other.
So there was this line when Lucrezia was meeting the sisters for the first time that highlighted for me just how young she was. >Lucrezia stands there, in her traveling dress, in her fifteen-year-old skin. Sometimes I felt she was older, but that line made it hard to escape just how young she is. And for her to be going through this marriage at that age? I get that's what had been done historically, but that doesn't mean that biologically (or even mentally) Lucrezia was an adult. Her reactions, especially when it came to sex, are really put into perspective.
I wonder if the way society worked back then shaped the growth of our brain. I know that, for example, it isn't completely able to process stress before we are 25, was it also true back then? Or did the necessity to enter adult age early change its development? This is valid for the other biological aspects as well.
This is a really interesting question! I feel like everyone would be walking around traumatized. It's probably a bit of brain chemistry evolution and also an adjustment of expectations - when you expect life to be this way and it isn't out of the ordinary, it might not hit as hard as we view it from 2024!
No real excuses for what we’ve seen out of Alfonso so far, but Lucrezia doesn’t seem to be a very good choice as a wife in this kind of situation. Not only is she still in her mid-teens, but her parents don’t seem to have prepared her very well to be married off into a situation where she has no agency or power, but does have very defined public roles. It reminds me of the women who have married into the British Monarchy in recent history — Diana and Meghan struggled while Kate seems more sophisticated at fitting in.
I agree, they had years to prepare her. But let's face it, her parents probably didn't care. What's the worst that could happen anyway, it's not like her husband would kill her, right? 🙄
Lucrezia’s and Emilia’s appearances have been said to be similar a couple times now. I’m wondering if that will factor into the ending? A place swap or something? Prob a long shot but maybe 😅
I had the same thought! I wrote it in the marginalia last week!
I keep wondering this, too! Will she try to escape by having Emilia fill in for her somehow? Why else would O'Farrell mention it a few times?! ETA: Another long shot because there's not much time or purpose for a reveal like this, but, given that they look alike, could Lucrezia's dad have been Emilia's dad? They mentioned a Swiss soldier, but that could've been a story to cover for him. It'd put a new element of harsh reality into the example she thinks her parents' marriage sets.
I thought of the same-dad thing too!!! I was like “hmm absent Swiss soldier… sounds… convenient” 😅
Ohhhhh good spot. I was thinking about the similarity in their appearances was going to be relevent with a swapping of places, but now I am wondering if this is what we are supposed to take from the reference.
I think there was an implied threat from someone (a sister) earlier in the book of "he'll blame you" to Lucrezia. Could Alfonso know about Elisabetta's affair and find out that Lucrezia knew and didn't tell him? If Elisabetta embarrasses Alfonso and Lucrezia could've stopped it, she'll definitely be put on the murder train.
Ugh. He makes me so anxious! He is pretty scary.
Definitely! It's getting much easier to see why she thinks he is about to kill her.
Ah, you brought up the warning from the sister as well, I should have read until the end, lol.