I’m guessing that his goal is to make money. Maybe he can go back in time and write the novel himself. Something was said about everyone being disappointed in the ending so he could have rewritten it with his own twist at the end.
Well it has to either be power or money. It doesn't sound like its money related, so the manuscript must give him some power. Do we know what the manuscript is about? With Mr Rochester from Jane Eyre coming to life, is there a character or something in Chuzzlewit that would be useful to him?
Ooo that's an interesting thought. The line between fiction and the real world can become blurry and one seems to be able to manipulate the other. Perhaps he has a plan to get power by utilising this
(Oh God, I feel like I'm doing something so wrong by using unmarked spoilers! 😂 Reader, I'm spoiling the story. Don't read this if you haven't read *Jane Eyre.*)
Honestly, I thought Rochester was kind of a creep and it almost ruined an otherwise amazing book for me. A lot of what he did was manipulative and weird (that scene where he pretends to be a fortune teller, what the actual *fuck*?), and of course I'm absolutely not cool with how he treated Bertha. I don't care if it was a different time, if Wilkie Collins could write an entire book about how it's wrong to lock up mentally ill people, then Charlotte Bronte has no excuse.
I'm very curious about how the story will be changed in this version, though. When Thursday said about no one liking the ending, I was immediately intrigued. "Reader, I married him" is arguably the most famous line from Jane Eyre, and the scene where Bertha burns down the house is absolutely iconic.
Having not read Jane Eyre since high school, I was very taken aback and thought that either I was misremembering the ending or that the different ending was a conceit of the universe. I’m glad to know I hadn’t completely forgotten everything.
I love a dark brooding character with a troubled past but Rochester is a creep! He uses his power over the women around him to get what he wants. He holds significant power over Jane and Bertha due to his social status, wealth, and experience. I remember the first time I read that infamous sentence and I wanted to chuck my book across the room.
I read Jane Eyre in high school and *hated* it so much that, even as an avid reader, I resorted to CliffNotes. 9th grade was not the time to introduce me to classics. When this book was announced, I decided that I should give it another try, so I read it a few weeks ago and *loved* it quite a lot! I may have gone down a bit of a Jane Eyre rabbit hole after finishing the novel. I just started watching the miniseries (and plan to watch the movie on a long flight I have coming up) and I just got a copy of *Wild Sargasso Sea* to read whenever I get a moment.
Spoilers below... I feel like I should apologize! 😄
Edward was mysteriously charming to me at first. As u/Amanda39 mentioned, the fortune-teller scene was worrisome, and then the crazy wife reveal at the altar made me really mad, so I was off Edward after that. I would have preferred she live with her female cousins that she meets and open her own amazing school and be the best teacher and spinster with the happiest female family... but Edward is better than St. John, so I can understand why this alternate ending is a crime!
(Also, my audio narration for Jane Eyre pronounced "St. John" quite close to "SinJin" which I understand is probably regionally accurate, but to my American ears was jarring each and every time!)
Yeah, "St. John" is one of those British names that's pronounced nothing like it's spelled.
I haven't read *Wide Sargasso Sea* yet but I've been meaning to ever since I read *Jane Eyre.* I hate how *Jane Eyre* portrayed Bertha like she wasn't even human.
I'm really interested to read it! I agree about Bertha! I guess at the time it was probably considered a humane depiction because the alternative was an insane asylum? 🤦🏻♀️
I have not read a single Emily Bronte novel, and I have a suspicion it's going to make this a tougher read for me than everybody else haha. Especially cuz really don't have any interest in reading Jane Eyre at the same time as my schedules too full.
I haven't read anything by Emily Bronte either and didn't have time to fit in Jane Eyre before this read. I'm going into it as, oh well, spoilers. 🤷🏻♀️ I figure I may miss out on some details that'll hopefully be filled in during the discussions.
I read it as a teenager and remember loving it, I definitely read it more than once so it must have been good, my memory of it now is pretty hazy though, so it might be time for a re-read.
Jane Eyre is my absolute favorite book, but it’s because Jane is amazing, not necessarily Rochester. I toss him into the “the heart wants what it wants” category.
I really liked Jane Eyre. I was never forced to read it for class and only read it as an adult. Though it has been a few years and my memory is a bit hazy. I definitely did NOT see Edward as charming. I have also read Wide Sargasso Sea >!which certainly cannot be interpreted as portraying Edward as charming!<
I read Jane Eyre a few weeks ago to prepare for reading this one. I was surprised with how much I enjoyed it! I didn't find Edward charming though. He seemed like a walking red flag and I agree with others - the fortune teller scene was weird.
I don't think I realized how dark my reading preferences can be until I started to think about jumping into my favorite novels! I think I would survive being dropped into the Anne of Green Gables universe. You can add my name to the "take notice" wall with all sorts of gossip written beside it.
Ok - great question but I have to think about it!! \[I thought about it! I'm going to go with one night at Griboedov's from *The Master and Margarita,* ideally before Ivan shows up to crash the party!\]
Off the top of my head, *Little Women* at Christmas or at a meeting of>!The Pickwick Club, maybe during one of the plays they like to put on!<
But this is such a fun question, and I'm sure there's a better answer if I think about it!
Love this question.....i need to consult my Goodreads BRB....ok so none of them....too much drama occurs in the books I love lol. I would like visit Erin Morgenstern's Night Circus for an evening, or meet some of the characters from Becky Chambers' Wayfarer series. I could hang out in the castle with Howl, Sophie and Calcifer. I wouldn't mind checking out Terre d'Ange in Kushiel's Universe as long as I can stay well away from the drama lol
Oh boy, anything I'm reading now is a hard no lol (The Nightmare Man by J.H. Markert leaves me a little terrified of the thought). And all of my recently read books would not be a fun time either. ~~I'm going the safe route and saying Year 1 of Harry Potter. Lots of learning and magic, but nothing high stakes.~~ (This is what I get for reading a lot of spicy romance, fantasy, and sci-fi: worlds and situations that are fun to read about but not so fun to actually live in.)
No no no no, I changed my mind. The House in the Cerulean Sea. Any scene. All day, every day. (I happened to glance at my bookshelf and saw it right before I hit Post.) Final answer.
How are you enjoying the British humor and references? What is your favorite bit of humor? (Personally, the book’s [**Annotations for non-British readers**](https://www.jasperfforde.com/reader/readerjon2.html) has come in handy for me – mandatory reading. Plus lots of googling)
I totally agree about those annotations - it is saving me a lot of confusion! I love all the character names. It's like a cheeky take on Dickens. One of the annotations said that Landen Park-Laine is because in the UK Monopoly, you want to *land on Park Lane* like Broadway in the US. They considered making the character Broade-Waye in the U.S. version but didn't. They could've made it Park-Place, which is next to Broadway in the game... but I get that Broadway is more recognizable, so why make a more minor change?
My husband is fascinated by rhyming slang, and I am going to have to ask if he knew this one! It would definitely come in useful in the U.S. because no one would have any idea what it means! Apparently there is an art installation in London to try to revive knowledge and interest in rhyming slang - [looks interesting!](https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/article/2024/jun/10/artist-hopes-to-reintroduce-cockney-rhyming-slang-to-young-londoners)
As a Brit (who doesn't actually live in the UK anymore) I am finding it so fun and cozy. Like u/bluebelle236 I was also surprised by how many things on the annotations were not common knowledge
The bits I understand are great and I especially love the overly British-sounding names. I figure there's a lot that has gone over my head, but I'm enjoying the ride anyway.
It's so much fun! I appreciate the link for the non-British readers so I can get some of the jokes involving slang words and the characters' names. I did a spit take at the items for sale at the Brontë museum - I was brushing my teeth when the audio narration said "small imitation plastic Heathcliffs" - toothpaste everywhere. I think Chapter 6, with the visit to the novel, was one of my favorite parts, along with all the character names and weird alternate history! Just the idea that literature is so important that all these crimes and black market deals happen for books is amazing!
I'm really loving the British humor. Styx getting a sadistic thrill out of calling people to say he wants to buy their cars and then never showing up sounds like something out of a Douglas Adams novel. I'm also really enjoying the alternate universe aspects of it and the idea of being able to go into classics and interact with the characters.
My only complaint (and it's a fairly minor one) is that Thursday kind of feels lacking in personality. The back of the book describes her as "feisty," so I kind of assumed she'd have a stronger personality, maybe be really sarcastic or witty or something.
I totally agree! I was ready to blame Thursday's mild personality on the narrator since I'm on audio, but you're right that so far, it just lacks pizazz! Given all the humor the author puts in, she should definitely be funnier or snarkier herself.
>Thursday kind of feels lacking in personality.
Hmmm yes! You are right. Her future self seemed to fit the fiesty description more so maybe it will come?!
I just picked this up from my library last night so I have some catching up to do! So far, I really like the tone and humor. I think my funny bone is British sometimes. It's giving me a little bit of what The Thrilling Adventures of Lovelace and Babbage was missing for me, mostly due to the graphic novel format.
I love the humour like everyone else. The puns and absurdity have a Douglas Adams, Vonnegut quality, which I adore. I also enjoy trying to pick up on all the references, which is another fun little game. If it continues as quality as it's started It'll be my favourite book this year so far.
Its really fun so far, I've no idea where its heading! The characters are great, storyline is fun and I'm loving all the alternative history. Its also making me want to read Jane Eyre again, bonus book maybe...?
I’m enjoying it! I’m a week behind because I had to wait for a physical copy of the book to come in at the library. I don’t really know what to expect yet.
I read Shades of Gray (not the 50 shades one the Fforde one!) right after it came out and was blown away. I can't believe i haven't read any other Fforde books till now. I think this author is really special and I am definitely motivated to read more of his books even though we are only just getting started!
I *love* it. This book has languished on my shelves for years and I'm regretting every moment I didn't pick it up before now.
Two words: Jack. Schitt. The moment that lightbulb went off in my head. 😂
Also the scene where the dog from Jane Eyre got to go and do dog things rather than what was written on the page. Loved it.
What are your thoughts on the use of the quotations (\*do these qualify as epitaphs since they are fictional?\*) at the beginning of each chapter as a literary technique?
I laughed at the first quotation because Millon De Floss wrote it. A book title by George Eliot: The Mill on the Floss.
George Eliot >!wrote her own epigrams that were poems in the beginning of some chapters!< of Middlemarch. Maybe De Floss's epigrams were an homage to her.
I was wondering that same thing about George Eliot since I'm on the Middlemarch yearlong reading sub. All the literary references in this book are so fun!
I think it's because I'm reading Middlemarch, too, that I caught the references. Other books use quotations in the beginning of a chapter, but Eliot did it in every chapter of Middlemarch.
Had you hear about the debate – [**did Shakespeare write all his own works**](https://www.history.com/news/did-shakespeare-really-write-his-own-plays)? Where do you stand?
I don’t think it really matters if he wrote it or if someone used him as a front. It’s definitely possible…Elizabethan times were fraught with peril.
But the important thing is the work!
I knew that some people think Shakespeare didn't write all his own works, but this was the first I'd heard of Bacon being the author. (Isn't it usually Marlowe who gets the credit?)
I was fascinated by this quote from the Annotation page:
>Baconians exist in our world, too, and while they don't knock at doors or fight in the street they are as mad as pants and a pain in the arse. Unsurprisingly, the Bacon cult was founded by one Delia Salter Bacon, who was no relation to Francis, but may have thought she was, she being completely barmy.
First of all, I love that the Baconians were founded by someone named Bacon but the name is just a coincidence. Secondly, despite being American, I've decided to appropriate the phrase "mad as pants." It has entered my vocabulary.
Well in the Uk......
I actually don't know. But why would trousers be mad? Maybe underpants can be crazy because you can't see them under your sensible clothes?
Questions of Shakespeare's authorship are my Roman empire. Bacon was well-educated, well-traveled, and renowned for his scholastic and political aptitude. People claim Shakespeare couldn't have possibly created the masterpieces in his canon without a strong education and life experiences. Bacon's background is more believable for Shakespeare's body of work but there is nothing tying him to Shakespeare's plays. This assumption is classist and flawed for obvious reasons.
As for Marlowe, he did collaborate on a few occasions with Shakespeare but their writing styles are very different. For one thing, he sucked at writing comedies. He really didn't have anything to gain by faking his own death to write as Shakespeare. He was also literally stabbed at a dinner party with 16 witnesses. This theory did not emerge until the 1800s.
There are also those who are quick to point out that Shakespeare didn't consistently spell his name correctly or sometimes mixed up locations in his plays (e.g. Two Gentlemen of Verona). Which is it then? Is he too smart for his circumstances or a blubbering idiot who couldn't have possibly written all that stuff? It is my belief that he wrote all the things.
The misspellings might seem odd under a modern lens, but spelling was not standardized until the advent of the dictionary. His contemporaries like Christopher Marlowe, Ben Johnson, and even Queen Elizabeth spelled and signed their names in multiple ways on legal documents. Sometimes it denoted the context of what people were signing (e.g family records vs court documents), other times there appears to be no rhyme or reason to why these variations happened.
I knew about the Shakespeare skeptics but not the Baconians specifically. I remembered this article from [The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/who-is-shakespeare-emilia-bassano/588076/) which talks about the theory that Shakespeare's works could've been written by a woman. Intriguing! Whoever wrote them (and I am happy to stick with Shakespeare himself) was a genius, that's for sure!
I have never really understood why prank calls are so funny or satisfying for the caller. It seems to cause minor confusion to the listener in most cases, and you wouldn't really see the full reaction because people hang up. It's weird behavior that I just don't get. Apologies to any prank call lovers, haha!
I was confused by the Crimean war and how the author portrayed it as a continued modern event. I struggled to describe it in my summary. What thoughts do others have?
I agree that I was initially confused about how long it was going on, but I really like alternate history in spec-fic books, so I found it an interesting choice! I saw in the annotations that it was considered pretty pointless at the time, so making it last forever is meant to be a jab at that - I think your summary got it right! It was sort of a vague detail in the background of the characters' lives. I wonder if it could also be a commentary on modern war and how things sort of drag on forever with no real goal for an ending or victory (like recent American involvement in Afghanistan, for instance).
It was interesting it was an alternative modern day frozen conflict that could turn hot and reached into the future instead of the history books. The real Crimean was notable as the first conflict to be photographed. News and pictures traveled back relatively quickly. And of course Florence Nightingale!
Any predictions? What do you think Hades wants with the Chuzzlewit and what does all this have to do with Jane Eyre?
So far nothing but maybe he’s going to steal all the original manuscripts??
Great guess! Steal them all and recreate history so that they were never written?
And then write them himself so he gets the fame?
I’m guessing that his goal is to make money. Maybe he can go back in time and write the novel himself. Something was said about everyone being disappointed in the ending so he could have rewritten it with his own twist at the end.
I like this idea! Pass it off as his own and take the glory.
Well it has to either be power or money. It doesn't sound like its money related, so the manuscript must give him some power. Do we know what the manuscript is about? With Mr Rochester from Jane Eyre coming to life, is there a character or something in Chuzzlewit that would be useful to him?
Ooo that's an interesting thought. The line between fiction and the real world can become blurry and one seems to be able to manipulate the other. Perhaps he has a plan to get power by utilising this
What is your opinion of the novel, Jane Eyre, when you read it? Did you find Edward as charming as he seems to be so far?
Not at all lol- but dark and brooding plus secret wife are not my thing at all!
(Oh God, I feel like I'm doing something so wrong by using unmarked spoilers! 😂 Reader, I'm spoiling the story. Don't read this if you haven't read *Jane Eyre.*) Honestly, I thought Rochester was kind of a creep and it almost ruined an otherwise amazing book for me. A lot of what he did was manipulative and weird (that scene where he pretends to be a fortune teller, what the actual *fuck*?), and of course I'm absolutely not cool with how he treated Bertha. I don't care if it was a different time, if Wilkie Collins could write an entire book about how it's wrong to lock up mentally ill people, then Charlotte Bronte has no excuse. I'm very curious about how the story will be changed in this version, though. When Thursday said about no one liking the ending, I was immediately intrigued. "Reader, I married him" is arguably the most famous line from Jane Eyre, and the scene where Bertha burns down the house is absolutely iconic.
Having not read Jane Eyre since high school, I was very taken aback and thought that either I was misremembering the ending or that the different ending was a conceit of the universe. I’m glad to know I hadn’t completely forgotten everything.
I love a dark brooding character with a troubled past but Rochester is a creep! He uses his power over the women around him to get what he wants. He holds significant power over Jane and Bertha due to his social status, wealth, and experience. I remember the first time I read that infamous sentence and I wanted to chuck my book across the room.
I read Jane Eyre in high school and *hated* it so much that, even as an avid reader, I resorted to CliffNotes. 9th grade was not the time to introduce me to classics. When this book was announced, I decided that I should give it another try, so I read it a few weeks ago and *loved* it quite a lot! I may have gone down a bit of a Jane Eyre rabbit hole after finishing the novel. I just started watching the miniseries (and plan to watch the movie on a long flight I have coming up) and I just got a copy of *Wild Sargasso Sea* to read whenever I get a moment. Spoilers below... I feel like I should apologize! 😄 Edward was mysteriously charming to me at first. As u/Amanda39 mentioned, the fortune-teller scene was worrisome, and then the crazy wife reveal at the altar made me really mad, so I was off Edward after that. I would have preferred she live with her female cousins that she meets and open her own amazing school and be the best teacher and spinster with the happiest female family... but Edward is better than St. John, so I can understand why this alternate ending is a crime! (Also, my audio narration for Jane Eyre pronounced "St. John" quite close to "SinJin" which I understand is probably regionally accurate, but to my American ears was jarring each and every time!)
Yeah, "St. John" is one of those British names that's pronounced nothing like it's spelled. I haven't read *Wide Sargasso Sea* yet but I've been meaning to ever since I read *Jane Eyre.* I hate how *Jane Eyre* portrayed Bertha like she wasn't even human.
I'm really interested to read it! I agree about Bertha! I guess at the time it was probably considered a humane depiction because the alternative was an insane asylum? 🤦🏻♀️
I have not read a single Emily Bronte novel, and I have a suspicion it's going to make this a tougher read for me than everybody else haha. Especially cuz really don't have any interest in reading Jane Eyre at the same time as my schedules too full.
I wonder if it might be worth reading a short summary of the book or watching one of the films?
I haven't read anything by Emily Bronte either and didn't have time to fit in Jane Eyre before this read. I'm going into it as, oh well, spoilers. 🤷🏻♀️ I figure I may miss out on some details that'll hopefully be filled in during the discussions.
I read it as a teenager and remember loving it, I definitely read it more than once so it must have been good, my memory of it now is pretty hazy though, so it might be time for a re-read.
Jane Eyre is my absolute favorite book, but it’s because Jane is amazing, not necessarily Rochester. I toss him into the “the heart wants what it wants” category.
I really liked Jane Eyre. I was never forced to read it for class and only read it as an adult. Though it has been a few years and my memory is a bit hazy. I definitely did NOT see Edward as charming. I have also read Wide Sargasso Sea >!which certainly cannot be interpreted as portraying Edward as charming!<
I read Jane Eyre a few weeks ago to prepare for reading this one. I was surprised with how much I enjoyed it! I didn't find Edward charming though. He seemed like a walking red flag and I agree with others - the fortune teller scene was weird.
Which novel would you want to jump into as a new character? Any particular scene?
I don't think I realized how dark my reading preferences can be until I started to think about jumping into my favorite novels! I think I would survive being dropped into the Anne of Green Gables universe. You can add my name to the "take notice" wall with all sorts of gossip written beside it.
Hahaha same, I would hate to be in most of my favourite novels, except to maybe give my favourite character a hug.
Ok - great question but I have to think about it!! \[I thought about it! I'm going to go with one night at Griboedov's from *The Master and Margarita,* ideally before Ivan shows up to crash the party!\]
Off the top of my head, *Little Women* at Christmas or at a meeting of>!The Pickwick Club, maybe during one of the plays they like to put on!< But this is such a fun question, and I'm sure there's a better answer if I think about it!
Love this question.....i need to consult my Goodreads BRB....ok so none of them....too much drama occurs in the books I love lol. I would like visit Erin Morgenstern's Night Circus for an evening, or meet some of the characters from Becky Chambers' Wayfarer series. I could hang out in the castle with Howl, Sophie and Calcifer. I wouldn't mind checking out Terre d'Ange in Kushiel's Universe as long as I can stay well away from the drama lol
A night at the Night Circus would be amazing. Great answer!
Oh boy, anything I'm reading now is a hard no lol (The Nightmare Man by J.H. Markert leaves me a little terrified of the thought). And all of my recently read books would not be a fun time either. ~~I'm going the safe route and saying Year 1 of Harry Potter. Lots of learning and magic, but nothing high stakes.~~ (This is what I get for reading a lot of spicy romance, fantasy, and sci-fi: worlds and situations that are fun to read about but not so fun to actually live in.) No no no no, I changed my mind. The House in the Cerulean Sea. Any scene. All day, every day. (I happened to glance at my bookshelf and saw it right before I hit Post.) Final answer.
How are you enjoying the British humor and references? What is your favorite bit of humor? (Personally, the book’s [**Annotations for non-British readers**](https://www.jasperfforde.com/reader/readerjon2.html) has come in handy for me – mandatory reading. Plus lots of googling)
Omg I want a dodo!! 🦤
I totally agree about those annotations - it is saving me a lot of confusion! I love all the character names. It's like a cheeky take on Dickens. One of the annotations said that Landen Park-Laine is because in the UK Monopoly, you want to *land on Park Lane* like Broadway in the US. They considered making the character Broade-Waye in the U.S. version but didn't. They could've made it Park-Place, which is next to Broadway in the game... but I get that Broadway is more recognizable, so why make a more minor change?
The annotations are incredibly useful. Thank you for the link. "Charlie Hunt" has entered my vocabulary.
I can think of a few people in the grocery store, etc that I can now covertly describe perfectly. ‘He’s a proper Charlie.’
My husband is fascinated by rhyming slang, and I am going to have to ask if he knew this one! It would definitely come in useful in the U.S. because no one would have any idea what it means! Apparently there is an art installation in London to try to revive knowledge and interest in rhyming slang - [looks interesting!](https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/article/2024/jun/10/artist-hopes-to-reintroduce-cockney-rhyming-slang-to-young-londoners)
The reference guide is very useful, but I'm surprised at how much is on it that the author thinks the wider audience would not know.
Trust me I don’t know any of it. I am an ignorant American.
As a Brit (who doesn't actually live in the UK anymore) I am finding it so fun and cozy. Like u/bluebelle236 I was also surprised by how many things on the annotations were not common knowledge
The bits I understand are great and I especially love the overly British-sounding names. I figure there's a lot that has gone over my head, but I'm enjoying the ride anyway.
How are you liking the book so far? Any favorite parts?
It's so much fun! I appreciate the link for the non-British readers so I can get some of the jokes involving slang words and the characters' names. I did a spit take at the items for sale at the Brontë museum - I was brushing my teeth when the audio narration said "small imitation plastic Heathcliffs" - toothpaste everywhere. I think Chapter 6, with the visit to the novel, was one of my favorite parts, along with all the character names and weird alternate history! Just the idea that literature is so important that all these crimes and black market deals happen for books is amazing!
I also laughed at that. Imagine someone actually wanting a Heathcliff action figure.
I'm really loving the British humor. Styx getting a sadistic thrill out of calling people to say he wants to buy their cars and then never showing up sounds like something out of a Douglas Adams novel. I'm also really enjoying the alternate universe aspects of it and the idea of being able to go into classics and interact with the characters. My only complaint (and it's a fairly minor one) is that Thursday kind of feels lacking in personality. The back of the book describes her as "feisty," so I kind of assumed she'd have a stronger personality, maybe be really sarcastic or witty or something.
I totally agree! I was ready to blame Thursday's mild personality on the narrator since I'm on audio, but you're right that so far, it just lacks pizazz! Given all the humor the author puts in, she should definitely be funnier or snarkier herself.
>Thursday kind of feels lacking in personality. Hmmm yes! You are right. Her future self seemed to fit the fiesty description more so maybe it will come?!
I just picked this up from my library last night so I have some catching up to do! So far, I really like the tone and humor. I think my funny bone is British sometimes. It's giving me a little bit of what The Thrilling Adventures of Lovelace and Babbage was missing for me, mostly due to the graphic novel format.
I love the humour like everyone else. The puns and absurdity have a Douglas Adams, Vonnegut quality, which I adore. I also enjoy trying to pick up on all the references, which is another fun little game. If it continues as quality as it's started It'll be my favourite book this year so far.
The tone is so amusing and the level of action very high so this is turning into a fun caper! Very enjoyable.
Caper is exactly the right word!
Its really fun so far, I've no idea where its heading! The characters are great, storyline is fun and I'm loving all the alternative history. Its also making me want to read Jane Eyre again, bonus book maybe...?
I’m enjoying it! I’m a week behind because I had to wait for a physical copy of the book to come in at the library. I don’t really know what to expect yet.
I read Shades of Gray (not the 50 shades one the Fforde one!) right after it came out and was blown away. I can't believe i haven't read any other Fforde books till now. I think this author is really special and I am definitely motivated to read more of his books even though we are only just getting started!
I *love* it. This book has languished on my shelves for years and I'm regretting every moment I didn't pick it up before now. Two words: Jack. Schitt. The moment that lightbulb went off in my head. 😂 Also the scene where the dog from Jane Eyre got to go and do dog things rather than what was written on the page. Loved it.
What are your thoughts on the use of the quotations (\*do these qualify as epitaphs since they are fictional?\*) at the beginning of each chapter as a literary technique?
I laughed at the first quotation because Millon De Floss wrote it. A book title by George Eliot: The Mill on the Floss. George Eliot >!wrote her own epigrams that were poems in the beginning of some chapters!< of Middlemarch. Maybe De Floss's epigrams were an homage to her.
Ah I missed the connection to George Elliot (and I am sure 100 other things). Thanks for pointing this out
I was wondering that same thing about George Eliot since I'm on the Middlemarch yearlong reading sub. All the literary references in this book are so fun!
I think it's because I'm reading Middlemarch, too, that I caught the references. Other books use quotations in the beginning of a chapter, but Eliot did it in every chapter of Middlemarch.
Thank you for pointing this out, I totally missed it! Did anyone catch that Thursday has a colleague named "Paige Turner"?
Yes! I love the names Fforde has given all his characters they are just so fun
It’s definitely adding to the world building as well as giving tantalizing hints to what may happen!
I agree! It is interesting to read them and get little snippets of things to pay attention to!
Had you hear about the debate – [**did Shakespeare write all his own works**](https://www.history.com/news/did-shakespeare-really-write-his-own-plays)? Where do you stand?
I don’t think it really matters if he wrote it or if someone used him as a front. It’s definitely possible…Elizabethan times were fraught with peril. But the important thing is the work!
Agreed, I don't really think it matters who wrote them now at this stage, the important thing is the work produced.
I knew that some people think Shakespeare didn't write all his own works, but this was the first I'd heard of Bacon being the author. (Isn't it usually Marlowe who gets the credit?) I was fascinated by this quote from the Annotation page: >Baconians exist in our world, too, and while they don't knock at doors or fight in the street they are as mad as pants and a pain in the arse. Unsurprisingly, the Bacon cult was founded by one Delia Salter Bacon, who was no relation to Francis, but may have thought she was, she being completely barmy. First of all, I love that the Baconians were founded by someone named Bacon but the name is just a coincidence. Secondly, despite being American, I've decided to appropriate the phrase "mad as pants." It has entered my vocabulary.
I am 100% going to start referring to people as “mad as pants”. I giggled when I heard it on the book.
Oh, absolutely! It's an amazing phrase!
>"mad as pants." But is that American pants - trousers or british pants - underwear? .....
It's a British expression, right? But... why are underpants mad?
Well in the Uk...... I actually don't know. But why would trousers be mad? Maybe underpants can be crazy because you can't see them under your sensible clothes?
I don't know why but that fact that she is ~~Salty~~ Salter Bacon is even more amusing.
"Salty Bacon" sounds like it could be the name of a character in this book
I was so confused because I also thought it was Marlowe involved in these debates.
Questions of Shakespeare's authorship are my Roman empire. Bacon was well-educated, well-traveled, and renowned for his scholastic and political aptitude. People claim Shakespeare couldn't have possibly created the masterpieces in his canon without a strong education and life experiences. Bacon's background is more believable for Shakespeare's body of work but there is nothing tying him to Shakespeare's plays. This assumption is classist and flawed for obvious reasons. As for Marlowe, he did collaborate on a few occasions with Shakespeare but their writing styles are very different. For one thing, he sucked at writing comedies. He really didn't have anything to gain by faking his own death to write as Shakespeare. He was also literally stabbed at a dinner party with 16 witnesses. This theory did not emerge until the 1800s. There are also those who are quick to point out that Shakespeare didn't consistently spell his name correctly or sometimes mixed up locations in his plays (e.g. Two Gentlemen of Verona). Which is it then? Is he too smart for his circumstances or a blubbering idiot who couldn't have possibly written all that stuff? It is my belief that he wrote all the things.
Interesting background!
Wow I didn’t know all that. Thanks for the background. How did his name get misspelled?
The misspellings might seem odd under a modern lens, but spelling was not standardized until the advent of the dictionary. His contemporaries like Christopher Marlowe, Ben Johnson, and even Queen Elizabeth spelled and signed their names in multiple ways on legal documents. Sometimes it denoted the context of what people were signing (e.g family records vs court documents), other times there appears to be no rhyme or reason to why these variations happened.
I knew about the Shakespeare skeptics but not the Baconians specifically. I remembered this article from [The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/who-is-shakespeare-emilia-bassano/588076/) which talks about the theory that Shakespeare's works could've been written by a woman. Intriguing! Whoever wrote them (and I am happy to stick with Shakespeare himself) was a genius, that's for sure!
Have you ever had a bad experience selling something? Any prank calls or people trying to pull a fast one?
I have never really understood why prank calls are so funny or satisfying for the caller. It seems to cause minor confusion to the listener in most cases, and you wouldn't really see the full reaction because people hang up. It's weird behavior that I just don't get. Apologies to any prank call lovers, haha!
Anything else you noted or would like to discuss? Any favorite quotes?
I was confused by the Crimean war and how the author portrayed it as a continued modern event. I struggled to describe it in my summary. What thoughts do others have?
I agree that I was initially confused about how long it was going on, but I really like alternate history in spec-fic books, so I found it an interesting choice! I saw in the annotations that it was considered pretty pointless at the time, so making it last forever is meant to be a jab at that - I think your summary got it right! It was sort of a vague detail in the background of the characters' lives. I wonder if it could also be a commentary on modern war and how things sort of drag on forever with no real goal for an ending or victory (like recent American involvement in Afghanistan, for instance).
It was interesting it was an alternative modern day frozen conflict that could turn hot and reached into the future instead of the history books. The real Crimean was notable as the first conflict to be photographed. News and pictures traveled back relatively quickly. And of course Florence Nightingale!
I loved reading up on all the Crimean War details for this part! It is also the origin of the poem "Charge of the Light Brigade" by Tennyson.
Ah good intel. I didn’t know all that. Thanks for sharing!
Just noting we are reading to Chapter 18 next section!
Oooops. Corrected in the post.
Thanks!!