I’d love for them to just have 5 two way spots. It gives more guys a chance to play in the NBA. It also would be good for the product because you get to see who plays well against NBA competition. The G League would get even better too. A more fun G league fills more seats. It is a virtuous cycle that means they can probably pay more.
Why not let the more marginal talents choose the employer that might best fit their skill sets and needs. The draft is not the best thing for players.
The first round makes sense cause it protects the league from having all the top talent flock to Boston, NY, Miami, LA, and GS but two rounds is enough for stars and rotation players.
A third round just doesn't make sense to me for the NBA. Most seconds rounders are all ready useless, much less going another 30 picks. Especially if they don't upsize NBA rosters, most of them would just be cut pretty quickly.
Of course, this spoils Wed night for us C fans. Thurs afternoon will be our time, but it will be a A-1 sunny day in the northeast.
I still think if someone falls as in Robert Williams a few years back, we throw caution or money to the wind.
I never understood why the tax effects a team's own guys. You're punishing a team for partaking in a major part of the roster building process by simply having a draft pick? Doesn't make sense to me. In that same vein, teams are punished for drafting and developing their players well and giving them the contracts they earned. Just weird, "homegrown" players should count towards a separate cap or something to that effect.
The owners in the league generally do not like dynasties unless their team currently has one and most of the CBA concessions they've demanded over the last couple of decades have been to make it harder for those dynasties to stay together. This new second apron is essentially just a big fuck you to Golden State who decided to pay the tax penalties that were supposed to dissuade them from keeping that core together. They showed that the current cap restrictions didn't mean much if you were willing to shell out $500 million per year which is just not going to be palatable for most owners. Worth noting is that the Lakers ARE the business for the Buss family, so one of the league's iconic franchises is represented by an owner who can't realistically afford to keep up with the ludicrous amounts Golden State was paying.
FWIW I completely agree with you, I just believe this is why things are the way they are.
I get wanting to stop a KD thing from happening, or the miami big 3 thing where FA's decide to team up. But being this punishing for homegrown talent, or even trading for your team where you need to give stuff up seems wild.
not in a million years. dont look at todays results to evaluate those trades made at that time. there is a reason we got 2 picks in addition to KP. also we had to give up alot to jrue. It was obviously worth, but a whole lot different than getting KD in free agency due to a cap spike that will never happen again in the nba
> But being this punishing for homegrown talent
The new CBA does not really punish this if your owner wants to spend the tax bills. If you can build the main consistency of your roster prior to hitting that 2nd Apron, you just keep the same core and replenish leaving role players with 2nd round draft picks that you develop. If Wyc is willing to spend$spend$spend, the main 5 guys do not need to leave financially (DWhite's potential extension would be less than hitting the open market, but he's inclined to extend).
The 2nd Apron restricts from building up the squad once you've reached that mark, even if in years past you could. We wouldn't be able to accept a hypothetical JJJ for Horford+DWhite deal (even if we wanted to) because you cannot aggregate in deals when over.
Penalizing a team for growing through the draft seems counterintuitive. If your drafts are so successful, that your team end up dominating for a decade that’s not on you that on the other 31 franchises for poor scouting.
You’re allowed to go over the cap to sign your own free agents but if you incur a penalty you still have to pay it. If it wasn’t your FA and you didn’t have the cap space, you couldn’t sign them.
Full Tweet:
>Just so people know what the Celtics are getting into on draft night (s) - The 30th overall pick is guaranteed money. When you add the tax, Boston will be spending more than $9 million on that pick (depends on what they do w/Hauser, Kornet, end of bench)
>I could be wrong, but I can virtually guarantee there's no one at 30 worth that kind of money for an extended time. No one at 30 is cracking this rotation. The preference would be to use the 2way slots to develop a guy for a couple of seasons and then upgrade if they need to.
Karalis makes the mistake of thinking there's a choice.
We're over the 2nd apron either way and the NBA has has a set of minimum roster requirements.
We have to fill the spot. We have to spend money. Those aren't choices.
The 30th pick will cost us 2m initially and then 9m once you factor in taxes... But that 2m is also the absolute minimum you can spend on any player with any amount of NBA experience.
"This draft pick will cost Boston 9m" - No, we're going to spend about 9m on every minimum contract guy we sign this off season. So we can spend that 9m on a rookie, or we can spend that 9m on a role player struggling to find a team.
But we'll be spending ~9m a piece on each of our empty roster spots regardless.
There are 2 tricks we can use:
1. We can sign an undrafted or 2nd round player for 1m (there is an argument for trading #30 back to say #35).
2. We can leave a spot open for about a half the season and then get away with paying a vet min ~1m.
But we can't do that for our entire roster. At the start of the season, we need to have 14 players on the roster, there's no choice there. We're going to be spending ≥9m a piece on multiple guys who aren't going to play much.
>(depends on what they do w/Hauser, Kornet, end of bench)
Luke Kornet, Sam Hauser, Xavier Tillman, Svi Mykhailiuk, Neemias Queta... All these guys are making 2 - 2.5m as an absolute minimum. That's just looking at minimum salaries, the market rates for some of these guys is even higher.
Jaden Springer is going to make 4m.
Jordan Walsh is the only guy on our roster making less than the 30th pick would (and it's only by ~100k).
If we do make a trade hopefully it's into the early second round. I been watching Baylor Scheierman, Tyler Smith, Kyle Filipkowski, and Ryan Dunn highlights all week hoping one of them falls to 30.
I'm a sucker for "best defender in the draft" labels, especially for later picks, but yeah... 20% from 3 and 50% from the line is a big issue for a 6'6 wing.
Tax is such an overrated thing. These owners have significant profits on their franchises. Sure the tax eats into that but with the increase in revenues from winning the championship and merchandise I bet it more than makes up for it. Not to mention that ownership interests are now much more supportive given the diversified ownership sharing amongst private equity and multiple owners.
These franchises are multi-billion dollar valuations which more than makes up for even hundreds of millions in taxes. Taxes and penalties can also be reduced if they want later by trading guys, etc.
Any guy they add to the rotation whether they draft at pick 30 or sign a vet to a minimum contract will cost the same amount in tax. They need to fill roster spots. The tax is not unique to the draft.
Is it? There aren't many players that would crack the Celtics regular season rotation and be willing to sign a vet min. Anyone of that caliber would either want more money or a bigger role. I think it's more likely they draft guys that they think have potential to crack the rotation in 2-3 years and elevate the guys they already have on that path this year. Guys like Springer, Peterson, Queta, Davidson, and Walsh. Now playoff rotation is a whole other story.
We might get 1 good ring chaser but we need to sign multiple guys.
Sure, you can woo someone like Josh Richardson or Andre Drummond with promises of playing on a title contender, but the guy after that is likely worse than the average 30th pick.
We got more production out of a rookie Semi Ojeleye than a nearly retired Joe Johnson for example.
And that's before you look at the history of the 30th pick, which has hit on really solid rotation players 5 times in the past 10 years.
Cool so just fold this team now then if you are gonna completely punt on the margins going forward.
Our big man rotation is 38 year old Horford and 1 ankle Porzingis.
We have no tradable contracts and only the Bet minimum to offer any FA.
Kornet and Tillman are both FA.
Adding a solid young player to the big rotation isn’t a luxury it’s a need.
Kinda catastophizing there. Just need to replace a couple bench players. There's not a huge opportunity to upgrade the bigs, we are going to go with KP or Al regardless, so I'm not going to pretend the fate of the team hinges on whether we upgrade from Luke Kornet.
No one’s saying we just aren’t going to pick someone. We’re likely going to do what we did last year and trade the pick for multiple current/future seconds.
Tillman is likely coming back, we didn’t trade for a rental and we have his bird rights.
Kornet probably depends on what he wants and how they feel about Queta.
I'm down to trade back for 4 2nds again, the brad special
Then trade those back for 16 3rds
I do wonder when the NBA will bring back the 3rd round now that the talent pool is so global and the extra two-way spots
I’d love for them to just have 5 two way spots. It gives more guys a chance to play in the NBA. It also would be good for the product because you get to see who plays well against NBA competition. The G League would get even better too. A more fun G league fills more seats. It is a virtuous cycle that means they can probably pay more.
If they don’t do an expansion they should. A two team expansion would be about the same with 2 15 man rosters added.
Why not let the more marginal talents choose the employer that might best fit their skill sets and needs. The draft is not the best thing for players. The first round makes sense cause it protects the league from having all the top talent flock to Boston, NY, Miami, LA, and GS but two rounds is enough for stars and rotation players.
Very good point
A third round just doesn't make sense to me for the NBA. Most seconds rounders are all ready useless, much less going another 30 picks. Especially if they don't upsize NBA rosters, most of them would just be cut pretty quickly.
Yeah that makes sense
I think we’ll see 3 rounds when the league adds 2 more teams
Trade those for one 1st
He traded back for like 5 seconds lol.
I need those sloppy seconds
Of course, this spoils Wed night for us C fans. Thurs afternoon will be our time, but it will be a A-1 sunny day in the northeast. I still think if someone falls as in Robert Williams a few years back, we throw caution or money to the wind.
I never understood why the tax effects a team's own guys. You're punishing a team for partaking in a major part of the roster building process by simply having a draft pick? Doesn't make sense to me. In that same vein, teams are punished for drafting and developing their players well and giving them the contracts they earned. Just weird, "homegrown" players should count towards a separate cap or something to that effect.
The owners in the league generally do not like dynasties unless their team currently has one and most of the CBA concessions they've demanded over the last couple of decades have been to make it harder for those dynasties to stay together. This new second apron is essentially just a big fuck you to Golden State who decided to pay the tax penalties that were supposed to dissuade them from keeping that core together. They showed that the current cap restrictions didn't mean much if you were willing to shell out $500 million per year which is just not going to be palatable for most owners. Worth noting is that the Lakers ARE the business for the Buss family, so one of the league's iconic franchises is represented by an owner who can't realistically afford to keep up with the ludicrous amounts Golden State was paying. FWIW I completely agree with you, I just believe this is why things are the way they are.
I get wanting to stop a KD thing from happening, or the miami big 3 thing where FA's decide to team up. But being this punishing for homegrown talent, or even trading for your team where you need to give stuff up seems wild.
I agree with you buuuut adding KP and Jrue is kind of our "KD thing"
not in a million years. dont look at todays results to evaluate those trades made at that time. there is a reason we got 2 picks in addition to KP. also we had to give up alot to jrue. It was obviously worth, but a whole lot different than getting KD in free agency due to a cap spike that will never happen again in the nba
KP and Jrue were acquired via trades. KD was a mercenary free agent signing.
Trading and FA is hugely different though as trading you have to have that caliber of assets to begin wjth
No, trade vs FA
> But being this punishing for homegrown talent The new CBA does not really punish this if your owner wants to spend the tax bills. If you can build the main consistency of your roster prior to hitting that 2nd Apron, you just keep the same core and replenish leaving role players with 2nd round draft picks that you develop. If Wyc is willing to spend$spend$spend, the main 5 guys do not need to leave financially (DWhite's potential extension would be less than hitting the open market, but he's inclined to extend). The 2nd Apron restricts from building up the squad once you've reached that mark, even if in years past you could. We wouldn't be able to accept a hypothetical JJJ for Horford+DWhite deal (even if we wanted to) because you cannot aggregate in deals when over.
So they need to pay DWhite as much as they possibly can.
Penalizing a team for growing through the draft seems counterintuitive. If your drafts are so successful, that your team end up dominating for a decade that’s not on you that on the other 31 franchises for poor scouting.
Is that not what Bird Rights are? Genuinely asking, that's how I always understood it.
You’re allowed to go over the cap to sign your own free agents but if you incur a penalty you still have to pay it. If it wasn’t your FA and you didn’t have the cap space, you couldn’t sign them.
I trust what ever Brad Steven’s decided, he helped us go this far so whatever he does I trust him.
Full Tweet: >Just so people know what the Celtics are getting into on draft night (s) - The 30th overall pick is guaranteed money. When you add the tax, Boston will be spending more than $9 million on that pick (depends on what they do w/Hauser, Kornet, end of bench) >I could be wrong, but I can virtually guarantee there's no one at 30 worth that kind of money for an extended time. No one at 30 is cracking this rotation. The preference would be to use the 2way slots to develop a guy for a couple of seasons and then upgrade if they need to.
Karalis makes the mistake of thinking there's a choice. We're over the 2nd apron either way and the NBA has has a set of minimum roster requirements. We have to fill the spot. We have to spend money. Those aren't choices. The 30th pick will cost us 2m initially and then 9m once you factor in taxes... But that 2m is also the absolute minimum you can spend on any player with any amount of NBA experience. "This draft pick will cost Boston 9m" - No, we're going to spend about 9m on every minimum contract guy we sign this off season. So we can spend that 9m on a rookie, or we can spend that 9m on a role player struggling to find a team. But we'll be spending ~9m a piece on each of our empty roster spots regardless. There are 2 tricks we can use: 1. We can sign an undrafted or 2nd round player for 1m (there is an argument for trading #30 back to say #35). 2. We can leave a spot open for about a half the season and then get away with paying a vet min ~1m. But we can't do that for our entire roster. At the start of the season, we need to have 14 players on the roster, there's no choice there. We're going to be spending ≥9m a piece on multiple guys who aren't going to play much. >(depends on what they do w/Hauser, Kornet, end of bench) Luke Kornet, Sam Hauser, Xavier Tillman, Svi Mykhailiuk, Neemias Queta... All these guys are making 2 - 2.5m as an absolute minimum. That's just looking at minimum salaries, the market rates for some of these guys is even higher. Jaden Springer is going to make 4m. Jordan Walsh is the only guy on our roster making less than the 30th pick would (and it's only by ~100k).
Either pick Bronny at 30 or trade down. Paying 9mil to get Lebron sitting on the sidelines in Maine is what I want to see. /s
Pretty sure brad could convince 1 million bostonians to chip in 9 usd to make it happen.
Best I can do is 6
I think it is likely they could grab an international player and stash him overseas for a couple of years.
Jus for fun, Karalis = King in latvian.
Im Lithuanian and I thought of the same thing
Does that include a draft and stash?
Trade time.
If we do make a trade hopefully it's into the early second round. I been watching Baylor Scheierman, Tyler Smith, Kyle Filipkowski, and Ryan Dunn highlights all week hoping one of them falls to 30.
Yeah I love Scheierman tbh, I think he could develop into a Joe Ingles
I don't want any part of Ryan Dunn
Ryan Dunn goofed
I'm a sucker for "best defender in the draft" labels, especially for later picks, but yeah... 20% from 3 and 50% from the line is a big issue for a 6'6 wing.
If they're trading back take Tristen Newton or fuck it Bronny cuz I barely know anything about this second round 🤷
Trading down was never off the menu, it's our favorite thing to order. And we want seconds!
I’m sure some teams would prefer 30 vs 31, but I’m sure every 2nd apron team wouldn’t mind waiting a couple spots to avoid the guaranteed money
Tax is such an overrated thing. These owners have significant profits on their franchises. Sure the tax eats into that but with the increase in revenues from winning the championship and merchandise I bet it more than makes up for it. Not to mention that ownership interests are now much more supportive given the diversified ownership sharing amongst private equity and multiple owners. These franchises are multi-billion dollar valuations which more than makes up for even hundreds of millions in taxes. Taxes and penalties can also be reduced if they want later by trading guys, etc.
Any guy they add to the rotation whether they draft at pick 30 or sign a vet to a minimum contract will cost the same amount in tax. They need to fill roster spots. The tax is not unique to the draft.
Much easier to sign a rotation-ready player than draft him at 30
Is it? There aren't many players that would crack the Celtics regular season rotation and be willing to sign a vet min. Anyone of that caliber would either want more money or a bigger role. I think it's more likely they draft guys that they think have potential to crack the rotation in 2-3 years and elevate the guys they already have on that path this year. Guys like Springer, Peterson, Queta, Davidson, and Walsh. Now playoff rotation is a whole other story.
Ring chasers might take a discount down to the vet min
We might get 1 good ring chaser but we need to sign multiple guys. Sure, you can woo someone like Josh Richardson or Andre Drummond with promises of playing on a title contender, but the guy after that is likely worse than the average 30th pick. We got more production out of a rookie Semi Ojeleye than a nearly retired Joe Johnson for example. And that's before you look at the history of the 30th pick, which has hit on really solid rotation players 5 times in the past 10 years.
trade it
bronny james at 30 do we take him for hostage?
Send him up to Maine, furtherest possible place from LA, thems some long flights for a weary old man
For what reason? They can’t trade him for anything meaningful, they can’t take on more salary than they are trading away
Many people are calling him the black Payton Pritchard
I could legit see Brad trading this first and a second for a single future second. Just to save on tax
yeah at that point is an easy trade down.
Hopefully they can trade it for a future 1st down the road.
No chance in hell surely.
Trade with OKC for some 2nds, Presti takes Bronny.
Karalis is always wrong so I expect to pick someone at 30
If they like a player at 30 they will take him. Karalis is a goober.
Cool so just fold this team now then if you are gonna completely punt on the margins going forward. Our big man rotation is 38 year old Horford and 1 ankle Porzingis. We have no tradable contracts and only the Bet minimum to offer any FA. Kornet and Tillman are both FA. Adding a solid young player to the big rotation isn’t a luxury it’s a need.
Bro took a week and went right to dooming lmfao.
Thanks GM
Giving out sage wisdom like this for free?
Kinda catastophizing there. Just need to replace a couple bench players. There's not a huge opportunity to upgrade the bigs, we are going to go with KP or Al regardless, so I'm not going to pretend the fate of the team hinges on whether we upgrade from Luke Kornet.
No tradable contracts? Haha
No one’s saying we just aren’t going to pick someone. We’re likely going to do what we did last year and trade the pick for multiple current/future seconds. Tillman is likely coming back, we didn’t trade for a rental and we have his bird rights. Kornet probably depends on what he wants and how they feel about Queta.
The chance of there being a big available at pick 30 that can contribute in the next two seasons is unlikely, I think.
I was actually kinda in on DaRon Holmes, but the rumour is he has a promise from the Nugs
This is a deep draft
I still doubt that there’ll be anything more than a developmental talent big at 30.