I’m not sure that any of them are on this subreddit. If you head over to the city’s webpage you could probably find a way to send a more useful message. Especially since it sounds like you have all the inside info on the case.
But it is valid to complain about as a local, 301 incidents last weekend. There’s a problem that’s why this isn’t the first post you’ve seen and it won’t be the last.
I think you’re right about op trying to stir up emotion. People are so apathetic to the situation here in Vermont, so that’s a good thing. People should be upset at the state of things in Burlington. I work downtown, and it just gets worse every day. If there were any consequences for crime, then it wouldn’t be nearly so bad.
Looks like there was a busy weekend that just went by.
https://preview.redd.it/hg4dk9brg6ad1.jpeg?width=2016&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5520e4610c00d604f4b74012dd0ca02d9e8128a4
BPD has an easy [online incident report form](https://www.burlingtonvt.gov/Police/Police-Incident-Reporting) form, so there's likely overlap of incidents and actual events.
There’s a constant set of sirens from the 1st through the 7th, the 15-16th and then straight from the 20-21st to the end of the month, rinse and repeat
Jail repeat offenders, stop importing addicts from other states and cities, stop allowing panhandling, zero tolerance for open drug use, no safe injection sites…. It’s so simple
1. Jail repeat offenders - agreed.
2. Stop importing addicts - any proof this is happening?
3. Stop allowing panhandling - eh 🤷♂️
4. Zero tolerance for open drug use - agreed.
5. No safe Injection Sites - Burlington currently doesn’t have one… so… continue not having that… will FIX the current issue?
I can do some digging but yes we advertise our social services in other cities in the north east.
Panhandling attracts drug addicts, people who are clean can go to food drives and shelters, they don’t need to beg on the street for petty cash. Giving cash to panhandlers almost always goes directly back to the black market drug trade
I’m just saying allowing safe injection will be another step in the wrong direction. I know it hasn’t been implemented and we should do everything we can to make sure it doesn’t get implemented
1. Would love to see that advertising evidence if you find it.
2. Agreed that downtown tourist giving money probably 70% goes back into drug use (speculation). Shelters have been at capacity for a long time now so that’s not really an option atm. Food shelf from what I know is a good option but low on resources atm. Begging might encourage more others to come and do nefarious things but also wondering what other options they have.
3. I’ve tried researching the pros and cons of safe injection sites… found a lot of articles with pros, do you have any with cons cuz I’d like to weigh my options.
Oh I've been hitting all the facebook groups and craigslists to tell everyone that if they want free social services, better head to Burlington!
sorry if I am to blame. I just thought we needed more young people LOL
Safe-injection sites are a great idea in a perfect world, but they're currently not even out of alpha stage. Burlington doesn't have the resources to beta test issues like this. We don't have the money, we don't have the resources and we don't have the access.
Literally, we're coddling criminals.
We do NOT need to be a safe-injection site playground.
The real issue is we gave all the blind UVM'rs a voice and they got outsmarted by organized crack heads and elected a "lite-on-crime" crash-test dummy.
Sarah George and EMS are just watching it all burn down.
Wait until the housing market corrects, Burlington will become a wasteland.
This city is a failure, and our new mayor doesn't stand a chance.
Please make me eat my words. Please.
I agree with some of this.
I think NYC has had a self injection site for awhile now, from what I’ve read in articles it’s been successful but I’m open to any other articles or research to sway me otherwise. Not sure if NYC classifies it as alpha or beta or fully working yet.
You pose a good question whether our sized city is big enough to handle a program like that. Would be interesting to get some experts in the fields opinions on it as well.
I also wonder if it will correct. I feel like if it ever did, Burlington would be in a much worst position at that point and like you, i also don’t hope to see it get to that.
Technically, with BTV being in the news for the low a amount of police and that there isn’t any law and order, it has absolutely attracted everything from drug use to criminals knowing nothing can and will be done about it
How do we know this? Genuinely curious if anyone has done research on this. I’ve seen many claims of out of state advertising and such, but have yet to see anything tangible presented out of this argument. My gut feels like it could be true but I’d love to see something tangible to fully convince me
Hmm… well I have friends who saw the thing about the Palestinian kids getting shot, the thing with the police training with the bhs kids, stuff on the eclipse… do you have any links for the other national ones I’m missing? Would love to see what the world is seeing on the outside
A friend from Ohio sent me this
https://www.nbc4i.com/news/national/ap-us-news/ap-shooting-of-palestinian-college-students-came-amid-spike-in-gun-violence-in-vermont/
do you really think people involved with crime are out here following the news & moving around the country in large numbers based on who has low amounts of police? lmaoo.
people involved with crime are not making decisions based on media covering police shortages. if tht was guiding their choices, towns & cities all over the country are currently facing police shortages so Burlington wouldn't stand out.
there's so much propaganda & unrealistic thinking about this issue & thts truly sad.
Yes. I work in commercial property management. We deal with police and junkies daily. The polic told me the homeless population grew 400% from 2019-2023, mainly because of the free housing and money we were giving away to anyone. People were getting rides to Vermont to get put up in a hotel and money to buy drugs. This brought a lot of fentanyl dealers to the state as well. Now that the program ended we have a surplus of homeless junkies that never left and are effectively stuck here.
Absolutely.
My friend works at Howard in a role that brings them in contact with a lot of this population. It's openly discussed that Burlington has a high level of services and a low level of consequence.
Of particular note, it's not that people are "repeat offenders", that is, do something criminal, and are processed through the system, then come back months later to do it again... They do something, and then continue to commit other acts hours or days later. They end up with 5, 6, even dozens of \*concurrent\* court cases. Then what happens is they all get pled out in one deal.
Basically, its well known that if you commit 10 crimes, you'll only face consequences for one.
You don't have to go to Florida, or even New Hampshire to find a different prosecutorial approach. Just go to the next county over in Vermont...
WTF are you talking about? Do you not realize that as soon as they announced that they were defending the PD in Burlington, and there were no longer going to be police on the streets from midnight to 6am, that IMMEDIATELY there was a massive increase in shootings in downtown Burlington due to drug dealers moving in from NYC, New Haven CT and Albany? Like overnight!!! You are completely clueless if you think organized criminals don't pay attention to that sort of thing... It is literally cause and effect. Whenever the leftest ass-hats get into power, they defund the PD and make laws to stop prosecuting crimes, which ONLY benefit the scum of the earth drug users, dealers, and other criminals. Why do you think Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, and Chicago have all gone to shit?? Watch some videos on YouTube about the quality of life in those city's now. It's fucking HORRIFYING!! What we really need to do is stop resuscitating idiots who use drugs and OD. You want to play that stupid game? Then you get the lovely prize at the end...
You’re not wrong, it’s been plastered all over the news for many years, there are a few gangs that just got into town from Philly as we speak, I see them often, it’s absolutely NOT hard to spot.. Unfortunately the police can only do so much with the power they’ve been given.. Given the fact that our justice system is an absolute nightmare
Wow I got downvoted into oblivion. Which is nuts because those are just basic facts I laid out but whatever. It’s just easier to enforce the law. We don’t need yet another space dedicated to catering to drug addicts. What incentive do these people have to use it anyways? They don’t think rationally. They’ll keep using where they are. Just going to be more time, money and resources wasted
What you said is just an emotional assessment. Tons of research out there supporting safe injection sites, and so far your only arguments against it have been, as far as I can see, some variation of straw man arguments or saying “it’s easier to enforce the law”. Who is it easier for? Is it cheaper? Does it work to actually reduce the number of people addicted to drugs? (Spoiler alert: no it doesn’t). Unserious arguments without a scrap of data
I hate how Reddit is setup, to where it’s basically you have to say things that people will agree with , that creates a hive mind sheep mentality where people are just agreeing with everyone . Maybe we just don’t belong in a ghetto grimy drugged out hellscape , but I bet a lot of people don’t either but feel they can’t say anything about it , because they get shamed for it . Sounds pretty dystopian socialism 1984 to me
Because the library is currently the temporary safe injection site? Which is not ideal, obviously. What is currently happening isn't working and all available data demonstrates that SIS work to some degree, Th
Went to return books last week on Saturday night, probably around 9:30pm. Was offered "coke" and walked past 3 people passed out on the sidewalk and another group of folks being shady in the parking lot. It's a lot to digest...
Given the spectacular documented failure of other zero tolerance drug policies (Remember DARE LMFAO), why would you be surprised that smart people dont want to waste time or money on policies that have proven to, at best, be described as mildly ineffective?
Do you support the death penalty? Because that shit dont work either
I don’t support the death penalty, for the most part. Some people deserve death, but only in the most horrific circumstances.
There’s nothing smart about what we’re doing with the drug problem in Burlington. We’ve made the wrong choices for the past 5+ years. There’s nothing wrong or inefficient about a zero tolerance policy on open public drug use. Don’t forget that’s what I’m talking about. I’m talking about dealing with people that are doing drugs in public and terrorizing the town. We don’t need a safe space for them they need to be jailed or sent to rehab or both.
It’s disgusting and inhumane to encourage a human being to continue doing that to themselves
What exactly is working with today's policies?
Addicts are living on the streets in terrible conditions doing drugs openly.
You're allowing them to ruin public spaces for everyone else. Creating health risks for everyone else. And the addict's life is still horrible.
So who exactly wins when we allow people to loiter and inject in our public spaces?
Doesn’t seem like it anymore , since decriminalized and people don’t get arrested for it and people are allowed to steal up till certain amounts and theres sorts of connecting things , but people are just shooting up fentanyl and tranc (idk how that Pennsylvania drug is called ) openly , because they have no risk or fear of police arresting them
People get arrested for heroin all the time lmao. There was just a huge drug bust in Rutland like 2 weeks ago.
Complete and utter nonsense and right wing bullshit
People conveniently always forget that addicts are going to be shooting up anyway so we might as well give them safe spots to do it. This helps lower ER usage if they're not risking infections.
Putting blinders on doesn't actually solve anything and just makes it harder for everyone involved
That is complete and utter bullshit. Do people come in from out of town for our services? Sure but they’re coming in from other parts of the state not the rest of the fucking country. I’m so sick of this line. is this the world we live in now? One of your buddies tells you something and you believe it and spread it around? There is zero evidence that that’s true.
It is a thing. I have had this confirmed by multiple people involved with BTV social services. Mainly in upstate NY. Keep living in your little fantasy land though pal.
That’s not 100% true. Seven Days did an article about the motel voucher system and one last openly said she came to VT from Texas with no money, no job, nothing.
Oregon implemented safe injection sites and their over dose numbers are now well below the national average. Ever been to a bar? That is considered a safe use site for a once illegal substance that harms more Americans than heroin everyday.
Jailing individuals is what america has been doing for generations. Our jails are full, our taxes and police budgets have never been higher. How’s that working?
Denver offered the house less $1k a month and saw 45% of them off the streets and return to the workforce. All anger and punishment does is lead to more suffering.
Look into that Denver one some more it has not panned out at all…
Alcohol is different than heroin laced with fentanyl. How are the people in this sub THIS stupid.. truly blows my mind
They said more people, which is unquestionably true. And I don’t think they’re saying alcohol is the same as fentanyl lol. I think they’re using a example of a drug that is controlled and regulated, and whose use is allowed and managed in particular locations, to help draw a logical line between an idea that people viscerally react against without giving it a chance of having merit (see: your comments)
I’m grasping it pretty well. Again, I really don’t think they were making a direct comparison or saying “let’s open a heroin pub”. They were using a rhetorical/argumentative tool that’s pretty common. But let’s just drop that point in favor of the larger argument that we’re having, which is (correct me if I’m wrong) “are safe injection sites a good idea?” And, maybe for bonus points, “do they have a consistent measurable impact on drug use and related issues?” I don’t think you’ve made a good argument against the real life examples and studies showing they’re a good idea.
And I get the skepticism! It feels like a thing that shouldn’t be done, like it would somehow enable drug users, and especially given the way our country has treated and talked about addicts for the last 50 years, it feels way different. And that’s because it is, and it has to be. Responding to an addiction epidemic with “lock them up” has never worked to truly solve the problem, and the only people it benefits are making piles of money off the expansion and proliferation of our prison system.
Hey I hear you and I appreciate you coming at this with a reasonable attitude. My main point is that we should not continue coddling and enabling people who are killings themselves with drugs. If we’re spending the money on safe injection sites, responding to overdoses, proving safe smoking kits, etc, why not spend the money on some sort of mandatory rehab facility for those who use in public? I really do care about all humans and it makes me sick to my stomach that our solution to public drug use is that we just build them a “safe space” for doing these drugs.
I smoke weed, drink alcohol, do mushrooms, I’m very liberal on drug use in general but we need boundaries, hard lines, and consequences.
Comparing safe injection sites to a bar is pretty lame. Many (most?) people who go to bars are not addicts and have enough self-control to act responsibly in public, and close to 0% commit crimes to pay for a beer. I get what you're trying to say, but it's an apples to oranges comparison.
My understanding is…
1. First it’s BPD’s jurisdiction, if they have enough to arrest / keep criminals based on the laws vs their actions.
2. Then the courts press charges and then suggest to a judge what the sentence / punishment is. (DA / attorneys suggest WHAT, within the bounds of the law, judge ultimately decides)
3. To change how the courts or police laws work, it’s up to state reps, then the governor.
4. City council and mayor are more municipal, with power in ordinances and funding.
Am I missing anything? (Genuine question. Been educating myself more on all this)
Courts don't press charges. Thr SA is the one one that brings charges. And here lies the issue. Police can arrest all they want, but Sarah and her staff are the ones that ultimately bring the charges and the offers. This isn't Judge Judy.
I think the city, especially the downtown core surrounding that area (Colchester/Pearl to main st, then Winooski Ave to battery) should ban cars. A lot of the BS happening can be circled back to cars. For instance, this particular picture, break ins, the drugs getting here is all by car, the recent speeding and crashes or car chases. If we remove cars from our core, that sort of points cops to very specific areas of criminal activity which makes it easier to catch repeat offenders selling drugs. This will also make things more walkable and can provide us an opportunity to bolster the transit. There are cities similar to the size of Burlington doing things like this and it has been proven to help. Just a thought.
That’s an interesting idea but I think you fail to remember that some “mules” ride bikes and the such. It won’t stop it, it may slow it down but won’t stop it
I love the idea of banning cars from a larger area than Church Street.
But we also need a prosecutor who is willing to prosecute. Reading the news stories about people who have had HUNDREDS of prior encounters with the police is really disturbing. What are the police supposed to do if they see repeat offenders assaulting people if they know there will be NO consequences whatsoever?
I’m not a huge fan of prison. But there need to be consequences for assault, vandalism, selling deadly drugs, etc.
I wish I knew how this was going to get better… but I’m baffled.
I've wanted the city to extend church street out to the cross streets for a long time now. Especially Bank. Driving across church street is becoming dangerous and it should all be walkable.
Drug users and drug dealers operate on incentives just like everyone else. Burlington is very permissive, that means they will congregate here. That means we will keep having stuff like this happening until we create a disincentive for them. Police presence, prosecution of crimes like open drug use, ban camping in public, on and on. There is one solution and it will take a long time for everyone to come around. Think and vote and talk to your friends and family.
This is literally Crazytown.
People using drugs, not causing any harm to anyone else? Who cares. Let them be.
People using drugs and committing crimes that endanger or harm others? Lock them the fuck UP. I don’t really buy that “addiction is a disease” but even if I’m wrong and it is, criminal behavior is NOT OKAY in any circumstance. “I have cancer so I’ll just go steal a car” - does not fly as an excuse, why is it okay to blame criminal behavior on addiction. Make it make sense.
If you wantonly and willfully commit a crime, you should be penalized. I've met plenty of addicts who weren't crashing cars into buildings, destroying property, crapping on trees or attacking people at random. There's pervasive lawlessness and enabling happening. A society is governed by rules. If it's not, it's not a society.
The drugs that they are using are harming others. In addition to leaving needles around, they are absolutely exhausting our first responders and reducing the ability to respond to much else. They are also attracting dealers of heavy drugs, which we also apparently don't do anything about.
I'm not talking about pot - I'm talking about heroine + fentanyl + tranq, which I get to clean up after pretty much every day. It's not good.
The drug dealers should be publicly hanged and gibbeted alongside the "Welcome to Vermont" signs. I'm sorry. They're coming up here from MA and CT to deliberately take advantage of a vulnerable population: the mentally ill and downtrodden. Hell, start with border checks of every vehicle with an out-of-state plate. I don't care if it upsets or offends the tourists.
Slippery slopes man. That was the point of my comment. That was peoples attitude and look where we ended up. We have to draw the line somewhere. I don’t want to see people shooting up fentanyl in the streets, and you shouldn’t be okay with it wither
I don’t disagree but the practical reality is I would rather our limited resources go to arresting and prosecuting crimes like theft, assault, things that harm other people first and foremost. Let’s start there. And I’m talking hard time. None of this million chances shit. You fuck around, you find out.
Addiction is a disease but it’s also a choice. Many people here glaze over this fact and try to absolve these people of all guilt.
These people didn’t end up homeless one day and immediately decide “I’m going to start smoking meth” there was a series of extremely poor decisions made by these individuals that led them to where they are. Many absolutely deserve the misfortune they’ve earned
I had a good friend from highschool who started abusing opiates my senior year and he stole from just about anyone around him and burnt every birdge because he simply didn’t care anymore. Eventually his actions caught up to him and he got himself free room and board in federal jail.
Another friend hid their opiate addiction for years then suddenly and surprisingly was found dead in their apartment of an OD. This person never asked for help, always showed up for work, and lived a modestly normal life outside of some minor financial issues which usually surmounted to them “not being able to afford” dinner or drinks despite holding down a moderate paying office job.
You can be an addict and not be a shitty person. That is absolutely a decision you make and regardless how desperate and sick you may feel it’s YOUR DECISION to commit crime, lie, cheat, and steal by any means to get your fix.
💯
I know addicts who are decent humans who would never consider the depraved behavior on exhibit here. Behaving like rabid wild animals is absolutely a choice and it’s sickening to pretend otherwise.
But, ppl who choose to use know damn well what will happen and yet still do it. I don’t buy into the whole thing of it being a disease either, it seems more and more is a disease and our state attorney is more than willing to let everyone go on a technicality because fuck it, it’s a disease
i mean, it is a brain disease--no one with a functioning frontal lobe is shitting on the side walk or shooting up on the park bench. combined w being raised by shitty parents and being undereducated--these unfortunates never had a chance.
But its still said to see that liberals let them degenerate and die on the street rather than actually force them to change--bc somehow free needles and harm reduction is helping them? Ok, lets just keep them so comfortable they're ready for their body bag.
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink it. My point was, they knew good and well what they were getting into when they took the first shot or anything that they would get hooked, that to me isn’t a disease, it’s a **POOR** life choice. I can bet half of us were raised shitty but don’t do drugs, don’t shit on the ground and beg ppl for spare change and then chastise them when they don’t. To me this is a cop out and making excuses for ppl that knew what they were doing to begin with
"What now Mayor?" lmao. This is a screenshot of someone else's content, look at the volume button in the bottom right. I suspect this is of a developing story. You are a child or a bot.
Last year, during our annual guys' retreat, I had a conversation with multiple friends who work in federal law enforcement (DEA, ATF, and the Justice Department) in DC, Boston, and NYC. The topic of Burlington came up. They all agreed that once a city or community lets the "genie out of the bottle," there's little that can be done.
Once addiction takes hold in a community, stricter law enforcement and changes in societal views don't alter the fact that there is a market. Where there's demand, there will always be supply. Arresting one person just means someone else will take their place.
When the "defund the police" movement started, the goal was to root out corruption and injustice among officers. However, cities didn’t fully grasp the consequences of significantly reducing their police forces and altering laws. This gutting of police departments and the erosion of laws happened within a few years, but reversing these changes could take decades.
My takeaway is that we ignited the fire, and now we have to deal with the aftermath.
You can increase funding and get more officers but that wont do shit if you have judges and DAs that don’t prosecute.
It’s literally catch and release for these officers, there’s no point in arresting because the case will just get thrown out once it hits the prosecutors desk.
I've worked with federal LEOs A LOT. Probably at least 5-7 years of very closer collaboration. Listen when I say this they all got D's in highschool and have no idea wtf is going on. Even the Special Agents in Charge or the RACs are nothing more than aged meat heads.
I had one tell me about how ruinous legalizing pot would be because it would no longer be probable cause to smell weed. His words were "all dealers either sell or smoke weed and its much easier for us to spot that."
So he's lamenting to me about how he's gonna have to work differently/harder. LEO's views on subjects like this simply cannot be taken at face value, they're too close to what they're working with to provide any semblance of objective takes.
My take away is they're partly right but for all the wrong reasons, which is typical for the D's in highschool crowd.
The problem with the "defund the police" movement was that it didn't actually defund the police. The state should not have a monopoly on violence. I'm sure some members of law enforcement are decent people but every single one of them is a criminal who violate their oath every single day. The problem is not that the cops have less power, the problem is that the individual didn't gain any power when the cops lost theirs.
I completely disagree. I know many great and dedicated people in law enforcement. It's unfair and wrong to judge the entire group based on the actions of a bad individuals
Cops are so trustworthy, we have to record every moment they exist to ensure they dont murder unarmed people. Which is silly. Because cops murder unarmed people every day and face zero consequences
Like I said I'm sure there are good people in law enforcement. Every single one is a criminal. Not only do cops have qualified immunity but when they break laws off duty their friends let them off the hook.
People in law enforcement are held to a much lower standard than the people who pay their salaries and benefits. A free person drives their car they paid for on roads they paid for to get pulled over by person whose salary they pay for in a cop car they pay for to be forced to a summons at a courthouse they paid for to stand and face a judge whose salary they pay for who ultimately sides with the cop and forces them to pay an arbitrary amount of money or else they will be killed or imprisoned. Land of the free baby ... These aren't just a few bad individuals, every single one of them is complicit in illegally depriving free people of their liberty while enjoying immunity themselves.
You know this is BPD jurisdiction and that neither City Counselors nor the Mayor have powers of arrest, right? Pretty standard separation of powers for a municipality.
I’d place this in the district attorney’s office and city officials that pass laws to enable people to walk free the next day from “nonviolent” drug related crimes. We need to re think what “non violent” means. Sure destruction to properties preferred over destruction to human life but eventually it becomes equivalent in both cost and well being to the general public. How many times are you willing to roll the metaphorical dice.
Pretty sure this would classify as “danger to others”. I’m good with our current thresholds for held without bail. Especially given that,given our court backlogs, we’re currently approaching 40% of our incarcerated population as being detained without their due process right of a speedy trial. Often times being held beyond the minimum time that would be associated with the sentence for their alleged crime. If you want to see change, push the Governor to add staff to the courts.
Youre not wrong about the classification, however those charges are often dropped in a plea agreement. Which ultimately makes it mot. It’s very complicated but clearly a broken system. Fingers are being pointed in every direction for the disfunction. Unfortunately when this happens it takes a long time for true reform and ultimately this comes down to Burlington’s political leaders. Also the state considers people who are out on cash bail as “detained” so there’s some misinformation going on there.
https://preview.redd.it/oucylkmzc7ad1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3e8ee8a7e89764015e9f5fe678ae6ad337428eb5
I’m not saying it’s inaccurate. But there is some misinformation.
Daily incarcerated population data from the DOC:
[https://doc.vermont.gov/sites/correct/files/documents/Pop\_Count\_07-02-2024.pdf](https://doc.vermont.gov/sites/correct/files/documents/Pop_Count_07-02-2024.pdf)
Agreed. But those numbers are exclusively folks housed (detained and sentenced) within each facility. The numbers have improved since I last looked, but still alarming.
There was more news coverage around the new mayor's food train (what the fuck was that anyway ...maybe we should get some more adults who can care for themselves in to office?) than around any solutions to get Burlington back on track. It's a shame, but not a surprise. Time to reprioritize?
OP the best thing you can do is email the addresses on this link- [https://www.burlingtonvt.gov/CityCouncil](https://www.burlingtonvt.gov/CityCouncil) along with [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) . Throw in for [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) too.
Share this image, and how you feel about it. Let them know how these repeated antics upset you. It is extremely valid.
I share your frustration but this is a way better use of time/effort than punching air on Reddit.
Good Luck!
Fucking hell. Unacceptable behavior is happening daily downtown. It’s time to lock up every single one of them, it’s time for the police to do their job.
I work in a recovery center and am also an addict who is familiar with most of the cities suffering population, I've heard from more than one person that the owner of the vehicle ran initially out of fear, but returned to the vehicle afterwards. The driver may use substances, but the story that I heard was the driver had a seizure and the passengers ran because there were drugs in the vehicle or they were high. I wasn't there (this time) but it sounds like a pretty likely story.
That’s outrageous! The city council crashed a car into city market?! Those fuckers!
Sarcasm aside, I agree. The city council should make sure nobody crashes cars. That seems like a solid realistic goal.
Well, I know for damned sure Burlington is not Police friendly. Nor is it even 'middle of the road' friendly. Basically - you have to be a wing nut to even run for office there anymore. Policies pushed to enable this sort of thing time and time again. No real punishments, increased pan handling and crime. Radical policies put into place pushing normal people out of the area. You tell me. What is the fix?
Prices will continue to rise, driven mostly by the well meaning but stupid policies of the people you're talking about. Most normal people won't leave, they'll just stop being politically active. As the prices rise more and more, less and less crunchy lefties will be able to afford to live here. Crunchy lefties are fundamentally incapable of activism outside their hometown and will therefore ignore the city they left to ruin the city they now occupy. An added impact will be displacement of the very people we're upset with, the junkie. As it is currently the junkie is hanging on by a thread, all housing has been priced out of their range. They can't survive long term in camps, if we don't continue to import junkies from other places our local junkie pop will die off from the elements and ODs in 5-10 years. Junkies simply don't live very long and will live even shorter lives if out in the elements all year.
That will allow for the remaining bulk of normals to finally pick up the pieces and install a normal mayor.
They do, we all have immunity. We don't enforce laws in this county anymore. If you look at the criminal docket on any given day its assaults where both parties know each other (so one tattled on the other), domestic abuse / sexual abuse situations, and DUIs. You can do literally what ever you want and as long as the victim does not know you and you didn't get recorded, the odds are that the 4-8 officers on call at any given time won't respond to it and you'll never ever face any consequences for anything you've done.
I think that this is tied to defunding the police. I think there use to be more cops on the beat and bikes downtown. Now the man only responds to crime that already happened.
Excellent post, [automatic]-[reddit username]-96. Excited to see what else you have in store for us these next few months! Keep up the hard work, comrade.
I mean… that is the best parking spot out of the lot.
Looks even better than the park jobs in the lot too. I say just leave it there.
I’m not sure that any of them are on this subreddit. If you head over to the city’s webpage you could probably find a way to send a more useful message. Especially since it sounds like you have all the inside info on the case.
it isn't about valid complaints to the people who should be involved. it's about virtue signaling to stir up emotion
But it is valid to complain about as a local, 301 incidents last weekend. There’s a problem that’s why this isn’t the first post you’ve seen and it won’t be the last.
I think you’re right about op trying to stir up emotion. People are so apathetic to the situation here in Vermont, so that’s a good thing. People should be upset at the state of things in Burlington. I work downtown, and it just gets worse every day. If there were any consequences for crime, then it wouldn’t be nearly so bad.
Are you happy with how they are running the city ?
If it means losers like you moving away, absolutely 🤣
You all chose what you got with whom you elected. Maybe try fixing that.
[удалено]
Common sense. You got me good. My feelings are hurt.
Oh snap you got him good
Take my up vote. I voted for the other guy.
Looks like there was a busy weekend that just went by. https://preview.redd.it/hg4dk9brg6ad1.jpeg?width=2016&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5520e4610c00d604f4b74012dd0ca02d9e8128a4
jfc start throwing people in jail for fuck's sake
It’s keeping them there that’s the issue.
Considering that’s *roughly* 84hours from Friday to Monday afternoon you’re looking at ~4 incidents per hour.
BPD has an easy [online incident report form](https://www.burlingtonvt.gov/Police/Police-Incident-Reporting) form, so there's likely overlap of incidents and actual events.
Wait, they actually look at those?
Hollyfuck
Only with Holly's consent.
Today seemed like a busy day too. Earlier I saw four police cruisers booking it down St Paul with lights and sirens a blazin
There’s a constant set of sirens from the 1st through the 7th, the 15-16th and then straight from the 20-21st to the end of the month, rinse and repeat
OP what do you think the solution is? (This is a genuine question, not sarcasm or argumentative) also where did you get the info to this story?
The solution is to go back to living like a normal society.
Vivitrol injections if caught openly using or need to be resuscitated. It's getting worse by the day down there.
Jail repeat offenders, stop importing addicts from other states and cities, stop allowing panhandling, zero tolerance for open drug use, no safe injection sites…. It’s so simple
1. Jail repeat offenders - agreed. 2. Stop importing addicts - any proof this is happening? 3. Stop allowing panhandling - eh 🤷♂️ 4. Zero tolerance for open drug use - agreed. 5. No safe Injection Sites - Burlington currently doesn’t have one… so… continue not having that… will FIX the current issue?
Although it wasn’t actually appointed as such, the downtown library is the current safe injection site
I wonder how an official site would pair against a non official site
I can do some digging but yes we advertise our social services in other cities in the north east. Panhandling attracts drug addicts, people who are clean can go to food drives and shelters, they don’t need to beg on the street for petty cash. Giving cash to panhandlers almost always goes directly back to the black market drug trade I’m just saying allowing safe injection will be another step in the wrong direction. I know it hasn’t been implemented and we should do everything we can to make sure it doesn’t get implemented
1. Would love to see that advertising evidence if you find it. 2. Agreed that downtown tourist giving money probably 70% goes back into drug use (speculation). Shelters have been at capacity for a long time now so that’s not really an option atm. Food shelf from what I know is a good option but low on resources atm. Begging might encourage more others to come and do nefarious things but also wondering what other options they have. 3. I’ve tried researching the pros and cons of safe injection sites… found a lot of articles with pros, do you have any with cons cuz I’d like to weigh my options.
Oh I've been hitting all the facebook groups and craigslists to tell everyone that if they want free social services, better head to Burlington! sorry if I am to blame. I just thought we needed more young people LOL
Safe-injection sites are a great idea in a perfect world, but they're currently not even out of alpha stage. Burlington doesn't have the resources to beta test issues like this. We don't have the money, we don't have the resources and we don't have the access. Literally, we're coddling criminals. We do NOT need to be a safe-injection site playground. The real issue is we gave all the blind UVM'rs a voice and they got outsmarted by organized crack heads and elected a "lite-on-crime" crash-test dummy. Sarah George and EMS are just watching it all burn down. Wait until the housing market corrects, Burlington will become a wasteland. This city is a failure, and our new mayor doesn't stand a chance. Please make me eat my words. Please.
I agree with some of this. I think NYC has had a self injection site for awhile now, from what I’ve read in articles it’s been successful but I’m open to any other articles or research to sway me otherwise. Not sure if NYC classifies it as alpha or beta or fully working yet. You pose a good question whether our sized city is big enough to handle a program like that. Would be interesting to get some experts in the fields opinions on it as well. I also wonder if it will correct. I feel like if it ever did, Burlington would be in a much worst position at that point and like you, i also don’t hope to see it get to that.
Technically, with BTV being in the news for the low a amount of police and that there isn’t any law and order, it has absolutely attracted everything from drug use to criminals knowing nothing can and will be done about it
How do we know this? Genuinely curious if anyone has done research on this. I’ve seen many claims of out of state advertising and such, but have yet to see anything tangible presented out of this argument. My gut feels like it could be true but I’d love to see something tangible to fully convince me
You can’t tell me you don’t know other ppl from other states that can tell you we’re on the news. How about all the out of state plates and such
Hmm… well I have friends who saw the thing about the Palestinian kids getting shot, the thing with the police training with the bhs kids, stuff on the eclipse… do you have any links for the other national ones I’m missing? Would love to see what the world is seeing on the outside
A friend from Ohio sent me this https://www.nbc4i.com/news/national/ap-us-news/ap-shooting-of-palestinian-college-students-came-amid-spike-in-gun-violence-in-vermont/
do you really think people involved with crime are out here following the news & moving around the country in large numbers based on who has low amounts of police? lmaoo. people involved with crime are not making decisions based on media covering police shortages. if tht was guiding their choices, towns & cities all over the country are currently facing police shortages so Burlington wouldn't stand out. there's so much propaganda & unrealistic thinking about this issue & thts truly sad.
Yes. I work in commercial property management. We deal with police and junkies daily. The polic told me the homeless population grew 400% from 2019-2023, mainly because of the free housing and money we were giving away to anyone. People were getting rides to Vermont to get put up in a hotel and money to buy drugs. This brought a lot of fentanyl dealers to the state as well. Now that the program ended we have a surplus of homeless junkies that never left and are effectively stuck here.
Absolutely. My friend works at Howard in a role that brings them in contact with a lot of this population. It's openly discussed that Burlington has a high level of services and a low level of consequence. Of particular note, it's not that people are "repeat offenders", that is, do something criminal, and are processed through the system, then come back months later to do it again... They do something, and then continue to commit other acts hours or days later. They end up with 5, 6, even dozens of \*concurrent\* court cases. Then what happens is they all get pled out in one deal. Basically, its well known that if you commit 10 crimes, you'll only face consequences for one. You don't have to go to Florida, or even New Hampshire to find a different prosecutorial approach. Just go to the next county over in Vermont...
WTF are you talking about? Do you not realize that as soon as they announced that they were defending the PD in Burlington, and there were no longer going to be police on the streets from midnight to 6am, that IMMEDIATELY there was a massive increase in shootings in downtown Burlington due to drug dealers moving in from NYC, New Haven CT and Albany? Like overnight!!! You are completely clueless if you think organized criminals don't pay attention to that sort of thing... It is literally cause and effect. Whenever the leftest ass-hats get into power, they defund the PD and make laws to stop prosecuting crimes, which ONLY benefit the scum of the earth drug users, dealers, and other criminals. Why do you think Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, and Chicago have all gone to shit?? Watch some videos on YouTube about the quality of life in those city's now. It's fucking HORRIFYING!! What we really need to do is stop resuscitating idiots who use drugs and OD. You want to play that stupid game? Then you get the lovely prize at the end...
You’re not wrong, it’s been plastered all over the news for many years, there are a few gangs that just got into town from Philly as we speak, I see them often, it’s absolutely NOT hard to spot.. Unfortunately the police can only do so much with the power they’ve been given.. Given the fact that our justice system is an absolute nightmare
Maybe the criminals themselves are **NOT** watching the news themselves but, I can guarantee that someone they know has kept them informed.
Wow I got downvoted into oblivion. Which is nuts because those are just basic facts I laid out but whatever. It’s just easier to enforce the law. We don’t need yet another space dedicated to catering to drug addicts. What incentive do these people have to use it anyways? They don’t think rationally. They’ll keep using where they are. Just going to be more time, money and resources wasted
What you said is just an emotional assessment. Tons of research out there supporting safe injection sites, and so far your only arguments against it have been, as far as I can see, some variation of straw man arguments or saying “it’s easier to enforce the law”. Who is it easier for? Is it cheaper? Does it work to actually reduce the number of people addicted to drugs? (Spoiler alert: no it doesn’t). Unserious arguments without a scrap of data
I hate how Reddit is setup, to where it’s basically you have to say things that people will agree with , that creates a hive mind sheep mentality where people are just agreeing with everyone . Maybe we just don’t belong in a ghetto grimy drugged out hellscape , but I bet a lot of people don’t either but feel they can’t say anything about it , because they get shamed for it . Sounds pretty dystopian socialism 1984 to me
The alternative to safe injections sites is just people shooting up at the library.
Why do you think those are the only two choices?
Because the library is currently the temporary safe injection site? Which is not ideal, obviously. What is currently happening isn't working and all available data demonstrates that SIS work to some degree, Th
Went to return books last week on Saturday night, probably around 9:30pm. Was offered "coke" and walked past 3 people passed out on the sidewalk and another group of folks being shady in the parking lot. It's a lot to digest...
The better option is to not allow people to shoot up drugs in public. At all. Zero tolerance. Absolutely insane that you guys can’t grasp this
Given the spectacular documented failure of other zero tolerance drug policies (Remember DARE LMFAO), why would you be surprised that smart people dont want to waste time or money on policies that have proven to, at best, be described as mildly ineffective? Do you support the death penalty? Because that shit dont work either
I don’t support the death penalty, for the most part. Some people deserve death, but only in the most horrific circumstances. There’s nothing smart about what we’re doing with the drug problem in Burlington. We’ve made the wrong choices for the past 5+ years. There’s nothing wrong or inefficient about a zero tolerance policy on open public drug use. Don’t forget that’s what I’m talking about. I’m talking about dealing with people that are doing drugs in public and terrorizing the town. We don’t need a safe space for them they need to be jailed or sent to rehab or both. It’s disgusting and inhumane to encourage a human being to continue doing that to themselves
What exactly is working with today's policies? Addicts are living on the streets in terrible conditions doing drugs openly. You're allowing them to ruin public spaces for everyone else. Creating health risks for everyone else. And the addict's life is still horrible. So who exactly wins when we allow people to loiter and inject in our public spaces?
Or how about make it illegal and put them in jail like they use to
I'm not sure if you're aware, but heroin is already illegal.
Doesn’t seem like it anymore , since decriminalized and people don’t get arrested for it and people are allowed to steal up till certain amounts and theres sorts of connecting things , but people are just shooting up fentanyl and tranc (idk how that Pennsylvania drug is called ) openly , because they have no risk or fear of police arresting them
People get arrested for heroin all the time lmao. There was just a huge drug bust in Rutland like 2 weeks ago. Complete and utter nonsense and right wing bullshit
The huge drug bust is not individuals getting in trouble for shooting up. See your left wing ideals cloud your reality
People conveniently always forget that addicts are going to be shooting up anyway so we might as well give them safe spots to do it. This helps lower ER usage if they're not risking infections. Putting blinders on doesn't actually solve anything and just makes it harder for everyone involved
Are we advertising those services in other states or are other states advertising our services to convince their problems to come here?
That is complete and utter bullshit. Do people come in from out of town for our services? Sure but they’re coming in from other parts of the state not the rest of the fucking country. I’m so sick of this line. is this the world we live in now? One of your buddies tells you something and you believe it and spread it around? There is zero evidence that that’s true.
Why are you treating him like the enemy ? Do you like how Burlington is running ?
You would be surprised at the number of people that come from out of state. It's not utter bs.
It is a thing. I have had this confirmed by multiple people involved with BTV social services. Mainly in upstate NY. Keep living in your little fantasy land though pal.
Why are you mad at someone pointing out the problem and not the people causing the problem?
That’s not 100% true. Seven Days did an article about the motel voucher system and one last openly said she came to VT from Texas with no money, no job, nothing.
We do not, in fact, advertise our “social services” in other cities.
🤡
Oregon implemented safe injection sites and their over dose numbers are now well below the national average. Ever been to a bar? That is considered a safe use site for a once illegal substance that harms more Americans than heroin everyday. Jailing individuals is what america has been doing for generations. Our jails are full, our taxes and police budgets have never been higher. How’s that working? Denver offered the house less $1k a month and saw 45% of them off the streets and return to the workforce. All anger and punishment does is lead to more suffering.
Look into that Denver one some more it has not panned out at all… Alcohol is different than heroin laced with fentanyl. How are the people in this sub THIS stupid.. truly blows my mind
They said more people, which is unquestionably true. And I don’t think they’re saying alcohol is the same as fentanyl lol. I think they’re using a example of a drug that is controlled and regulated, and whose use is allowed and managed in particular locations, to help draw a logical line between an idea that people viscerally react against without giving it a chance of having merit (see: your comments)
You can’t compare them because alcohol is not even remotely similar to fentanyl. How are you unable to grasp this
I’m grasping it pretty well. Again, I really don’t think they were making a direct comparison or saying “let’s open a heroin pub”. They were using a rhetorical/argumentative tool that’s pretty common. But let’s just drop that point in favor of the larger argument that we’re having, which is (correct me if I’m wrong) “are safe injection sites a good idea?” And, maybe for bonus points, “do they have a consistent measurable impact on drug use and related issues?” I don’t think you’ve made a good argument against the real life examples and studies showing they’re a good idea. And I get the skepticism! It feels like a thing that shouldn’t be done, like it would somehow enable drug users, and especially given the way our country has treated and talked about addicts for the last 50 years, it feels way different. And that’s because it is, and it has to be. Responding to an addiction epidemic with “lock them up” has never worked to truly solve the problem, and the only people it benefits are making piles of money off the expansion and proliferation of our prison system.
Hey I hear you and I appreciate you coming at this with a reasonable attitude. My main point is that we should not continue coddling and enabling people who are killings themselves with drugs. If we’re spending the money on safe injection sites, responding to overdoses, proving safe smoking kits, etc, why not spend the money on some sort of mandatory rehab facility for those who use in public? I really do care about all humans and it makes me sick to my stomach that our solution to public drug use is that we just build them a “safe space” for doing these drugs. I smoke weed, drink alcohol, do mushrooms, I’m very liberal on drug use in general but we need boundaries, hard lines, and consequences.
why not open a Heroin pub?! i bet Bayer would be alll over that.
The Sacklers have the line on this.
Don't care about over doses. Did anything else improve or did they just buy junkies more time to get high?
Comparing safe injection sites to a bar is pretty lame. Many (most?) people who go to bars are not addicts and have enough self-control to act responsibly in public, and close to 0% commit crimes to pay for a beer. I get what you're trying to say, but it's an apples to oranges comparison.
go back to the West Coast then since its such a drug paradise. I see the 30%+ THC is really doing the population good!
You know city council has no control over any of that, right?
My understanding is… 1. First it’s BPD’s jurisdiction, if they have enough to arrest / keep criminals based on the laws vs their actions. 2. Then the courts press charges and then suggest to a judge what the sentence / punishment is. (DA / attorneys suggest WHAT, within the bounds of the law, judge ultimately decides) 3. To change how the courts or police laws work, it’s up to state reps, then the governor. 4. City council and mayor are more municipal, with power in ordinances and funding. Am I missing anything? (Genuine question. Been educating myself more on all this)
Cops don't charge crimes. Prosecutors charge crimes. Cops arrest.
Courts don't press charges. Thr SA is the one one that brings charges. And here lies the issue. Police can arrest all they want, but Sarah and her staff are the ones that ultimately bring the charges and the offers. This isn't Judge Judy.
This would actually be amazing if they did this , but it’s so unprogressive and liberal
What is the point? If we voted on those things Governer Scott would just veto it. He *hates* people getting what they vote for.
Exactly! Like it’s nothing new. As soon as the city stopped doing the above we ended up with these issues.
You can still have compassion for those struggling with addiction without subjugating everyone else to their drug induced episodes.
I think the city, especially the downtown core surrounding that area (Colchester/Pearl to main st, then Winooski Ave to battery) should ban cars. A lot of the BS happening can be circled back to cars. For instance, this particular picture, break ins, the drugs getting here is all by car, the recent speeding and crashes or car chases. If we remove cars from our core, that sort of points cops to very specific areas of criminal activity which makes it easier to catch repeat offenders selling drugs. This will also make things more walkable and can provide us an opportunity to bolster the transit. There are cities similar to the size of Burlington doing things like this and it has been proven to help. Just a thought.
You'll push the activity and car chases into surrounding neighborhoods and kill business downtown.
That’s an interesting idea but I think you fail to remember that some “mules” ride bikes and the such. It won’t stop it, it may slow it down but won’t stop it
I love the idea of banning cars from a larger area than Church Street. But we also need a prosecutor who is willing to prosecute. Reading the news stories about people who have had HUNDREDS of prior encounters with the police is really disturbing. What are the police supposed to do if they see repeat offenders assaulting people if they know there will be NO consequences whatsoever? I’m not a huge fan of prison. But there need to be consequences for assault, vandalism, selling deadly drugs, etc. I wish I knew how this was going to get better… but I’m baffled.
I've wanted the city to extend church street out to the cross streets for a long time now. Especially Bank. Driving across church street is becoming dangerous and it should all be walkable.
A very interesting take to consider into everything. Not sure where I stand on it but one I had not considered so far
Drug users and drug dealers operate on incentives just like everyone else. Burlington is very permissive, that means they will congregate here. That means we will keep having stuff like this happening until we create a disincentive for them. Police presence, prosecution of crimes like open drug use, ban camping in public, on and on. There is one solution and it will take a long time for everyone to come around. Think and vote and talk to your friends and family.
This is literally Crazytown. People using drugs, not causing any harm to anyone else? Who cares. Let them be. People using drugs and committing crimes that endanger or harm others? Lock them the fuck UP. I don’t really buy that “addiction is a disease” but even if I’m wrong and it is, criminal behavior is NOT OKAY in any circumstance. “I have cancer so I’ll just go steal a car” - does not fly as an excuse, why is it okay to blame criminal behavior on addiction. Make it make sense.
If you wantonly and willfully commit a crime, you should be penalized. I've met plenty of addicts who weren't crashing cars into buildings, destroying property, crapping on trees or attacking people at random. There's pervasive lawlessness and enabling happening. A society is governed by rules. If it's not, it's not a society.
Crapping on a tree takes really good aim.
Less so than one would think, apparently.
Preach!!
The drugs that they are using are harming others. In addition to leaving needles around, they are absolutely exhausting our first responders and reducing the ability to respond to much else. They are also attracting dealers of heavy drugs, which we also apparently don't do anything about. I'm not talking about pot - I'm talking about heroine + fentanyl + tranq, which I get to clean up after pretty much every day. It's not good.
The drug dealers should be publicly hanged and gibbeted alongside the "Welcome to Vermont" signs. I'm sorry. They're coming up here from MA and CT to deliberately take advantage of a vulnerable population: the mentally ill and downtrodden. Hell, start with border checks of every vehicle with an out-of-state plate. I don't care if it upsets or offends the tourists.
Your tolerance of open drug use is what led us here. There should be no tolerance for open drug use in public.
I agree. I don’t want to see that shit but so long as they are not committing another crime in the process, it doesn’t matter so much.
9/10 times they’re leaving their dirty needles and empty drug bags for people, dogs, and kids to step on.
Slippery slopes man. That was the point of my comment. That was peoples attitude and look where we ended up. We have to draw the line somewhere. I don’t want to see people shooting up fentanyl in the streets, and you shouldn’t be okay with it wither
I don’t disagree but the practical reality is I would rather our limited resources go to arresting and prosecuting crimes like theft, assault, things that harm other people first and foremost. Let’s start there. And I’m talking hard time. None of this million chances shit. You fuck around, you find out.
I’m very down for that. Crime does however increase when open drug use is tolerated like this
Well when do you start smashing their shit? You’ve had years to prepare.
Smashing what? Preparing for what? I’m confused
Addiction is a disease but it’s also a choice. Many people here glaze over this fact and try to absolve these people of all guilt. These people didn’t end up homeless one day and immediately decide “I’m going to start smoking meth” there was a series of extremely poor decisions made by these individuals that led them to where they are. Many absolutely deserve the misfortune they’ve earned I had a good friend from highschool who started abusing opiates my senior year and he stole from just about anyone around him and burnt every birdge because he simply didn’t care anymore. Eventually his actions caught up to him and he got himself free room and board in federal jail. Another friend hid their opiate addiction for years then suddenly and surprisingly was found dead in their apartment of an OD. This person never asked for help, always showed up for work, and lived a modestly normal life outside of some minor financial issues which usually surmounted to them “not being able to afford” dinner or drinks despite holding down a moderate paying office job. You can be an addict and not be a shitty person. That is absolutely a decision you make and regardless how desperate and sick you may feel it’s YOUR DECISION to commit crime, lie, cheat, and steal by any means to get your fix.
💯 I know addicts who are decent humans who would never consider the depraved behavior on exhibit here. Behaving like rabid wild animals is absolutely a choice and it’s sickening to pretend otherwise.
But, ppl who choose to use know damn well what will happen and yet still do it. I don’t buy into the whole thing of it being a disease either, it seems more and more is a disease and our state attorney is more than willing to let everyone go on a technicality because fuck it, it’s a disease
i mean, it is a brain disease--no one with a functioning frontal lobe is shitting on the side walk or shooting up on the park bench. combined w being raised by shitty parents and being undereducated--these unfortunates never had a chance. But its still said to see that liberals let them degenerate and die on the street rather than actually force them to change--bc somehow free needles and harm reduction is helping them? Ok, lets just keep them so comfortable they're ready for their body bag.
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink it. My point was, they knew good and well what they were getting into when they took the first shot or anything that they would get hooked, that to me isn’t a disease, it’s a **POOR** life choice. I can bet half of us were raised shitty but don’t do drugs, don’t shit on the ground and beg ppl for spare change and then chastise them when they don’t. To me this is a cop out and making excuses for ppl that knew what they were doing to begin with
Lot of birds with their heads in the sand on this subreddit.
"What now Mayor?" lmao. This is a screenshot of someone else's content, look at the volume button in the bottom right. I suspect this is of a developing story. You are a child or a bot.
This sub won't care....until it's their car. Then they post their frustration and get downvoted into oblivion And the cycle continues
Last year, during our annual guys' retreat, I had a conversation with multiple friends who work in federal law enforcement (DEA, ATF, and the Justice Department) in DC, Boston, and NYC. The topic of Burlington came up. They all agreed that once a city or community lets the "genie out of the bottle," there's little that can be done. Once addiction takes hold in a community, stricter law enforcement and changes in societal views don't alter the fact that there is a market. Where there's demand, there will always be supply. Arresting one person just means someone else will take their place. When the "defund the police" movement started, the goal was to root out corruption and injustice among officers. However, cities didn’t fully grasp the consequences of significantly reducing their police forces and altering laws. This gutting of police departments and the erosion of laws happened within a few years, but reversing these changes could take decades. My takeaway is that we ignited the fire, and now we have to deal with the aftermath.
Funny how across the board police funding has increased in the past 5 years.
You can increase funding and get more officers but that wont do shit if you have judges and DAs that don’t prosecute. It’s literally catch and release for these officers, there’s no point in arresting because the case will just get thrown out once it hits the prosecutors desk.
I've worked with federal LEOs A LOT. Probably at least 5-7 years of very closer collaboration. Listen when I say this they all got D's in highschool and have no idea wtf is going on. Even the Special Agents in Charge or the RACs are nothing more than aged meat heads. I had one tell me about how ruinous legalizing pot would be because it would no longer be probable cause to smell weed. His words were "all dealers either sell or smoke weed and its much easier for us to spot that." So he's lamenting to me about how he's gonna have to work differently/harder. LEO's views on subjects like this simply cannot be taken at face value, they're too close to what they're working with to provide any semblance of objective takes. My take away is they're partly right but for all the wrong reasons, which is typical for the D's in highschool crowd.
The problem with the "defund the police" movement was that it didn't actually defund the police. The state should not have a monopoly on violence. I'm sure some members of law enforcement are decent people but every single one of them is a criminal who violate their oath every single day. The problem is not that the cops have less power, the problem is that the individual didn't gain any power when the cops lost theirs.
I completely disagree. I know many great and dedicated people in law enforcement. It's unfair and wrong to judge the entire group based on the actions of a bad individuals
Cops are so trustworthy, we have to record every moment they exist to ensure they dont murder unarmed people. Which is silly. Because cops murder unarmed people every day and face zero consequences
Like I said I'm sure there are good people in law enforcement. Every single one is a criminal. Not only do cops have qualified immunity but when they break laws off duty their friends let them off the hook. People in law enforcement are held to a much lower standard than the people who pay their salaries and benefits. A free person drives their car they paid for on roads they paid for to get pulled over by person whose salary they pay for in a cop car they pay for to be forced to a summons at a courthouse they paid for to stand and face a judge whose salary they pay for who ultimately sides with the cop and forces them to pay an arbitrary amount of money or else they will be killed or imprisoned. Land of the free baby ... These aren't just a few bad individuals, every single one of them is complicit in illegally depriving free people of their liberty while enjoying immunity themselves.
[удалено]
I can't tell if you're saying no cops are decent or you're saying obviously all cops are decent.
So, it is like the Supreme court?
unfortunately, you can't fix stupid
You know this is BPD jurisdiction and that neither City Counselors nor the Mayor have powers of arrest, right? Pretty standard separation of powers for a municipality.
I’d place this in the district attorney’s office and city officials that pass laws to enable people to walk free the next day from “nonviolent” drug related crimes. We need to re think what “non violent” means. Sure destruction to properties preferred over destruction to human life but eventually it becomes equivalent in both cost and well being to the general public. How many times are you willing to roll the metaphorical dice.
Pretty sure this would classify as “danger to others”. I’m good with our current thresholds for held without bail. Especially given that,given our court backlogs, we’re currently approaching 40% of our incarcerated population as being detained without their due process right of a speedy trial. Often times being held beyond the minimum time that would be associated with the sentence for their alleged crime. If you want to see change, push the Governor to add staff to the courts.
Youre not wrong about the classification, however those charges are often dropped in a plea agreement. Which ultimately makes it mot. It’s very complicated but clearly a broken system. Fingers are being pointed in every direction for the disfunction. Unfortunately when this happens it takes a long time for true reform and ultimately this comes down to Burlington’s political leaders. Also the state considers people who are out on cash bail as “detained” so there’s some misinformation going on there.
That last bit isn’t accurate. I’ll post the source when I get back to my laptop.
https://preview.redd.it/oucylkmzc7ad1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3e8ee8a7e89764015e9f5fe678ae6ad337428eb5 I’m not saying it’s inaccurate. But there is some misinformation.
Daily incarcerated population data from the DOC: [https://doc.vermont.gov/sites/correct/files/documents/Pop\_Count\_07-02-2024.pdf](https://doc.vermont.gov/sites/correct/files/documents/Pop_Count_07-02-2024.pdf)
I see it, I’m not disputing those numbers, I’m saying that’s not the whole picture. Edit: I think we are on the same side but are disputing details
Agreed. But those numbers are exclusively folks housed (detained and sentenced) within each facility. The numbers have improved since I last looked, but still alarming.
Miro would be a great cop if he grew a stash. If i could photoshop I would
You’re likely correct.
There was more news coverage around the new mayor's food train (what the fuck was that anyway ...maybe we should get some more adults who can care for themselves in to office?) than around any solutions to get Burlington back on track. It's a shame, but not a surprise. Time to reprioritize?
Let the junkies out on $10 bail, of course
I'm sure Sarah George will get *right* on that.
OP the best thing you can do is email the addresses on this link- [https://www.burlingtonvt.gov/CityCouncil](https://www.burlingtonvt.gov/CityCouncil) along with [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) . Throw in for [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) too. Share this image, and how you feel about it. Let them know how these repeated antics upset you. It is extremely valid. I share your frustration but this is a way better use of time/effort than punching air on Reddit. Good Luck!
This is the goal of States Attorney Sarah George …… very sad
Fucking hell. Unacceptable behavior is happening daily downtown. It’s time to lock up every single one of them, it’s time for the police to do their job.
The police don’t lock people up.
I can see the City council now- "if we banned cars this wouldn't happen"
There's a paragraph long post in this thread saying exactly that. We're cooked if these people don't wake the fuck up
not that i doubt you or anything but where is the proof about junkies stealing/ crashing the car? do you have something to back it up?
Well, the owner of the car was present from what I hear...
Where did you hear this
I work in a recovery center and am also an addict who is familiar with most of the cities suffering population, I've heard from more than one person that the owner of the vehicle ran initially out of fear, but returned to the vehicle afterwards. The driver may use substances, but the story that I heard was the driver had a seizure and the passengers ran because there were drugs in the vehicle or they were high. I wasn't there (this time) but it sounds like a pretty likely story.
That’s crazy
That’s outrageous! The city council crashed a car into city market?! Those fuckers! Sarcasm aside, I agree. The city council should make sure nobody crashes cars. That seems like a solid realistic goal.
This is your real take away from this post? Good lord dude
Yeah… it’s fine. Let’s just keep on doing what we’re doing.
Your vote has consequences People vote on feel good values and forget about real life realities I think we as a people need more pain before we learn
Yeesh. When was this? So glad no one got hit.
Time for the council to trot out a conversation about root causes. That will go nowhere.
I’ve said it before, they want this to happen. Progressive mayor and lobbyists and it’s all a nightmare , it’s all entirely their fault
Well, I know for damned sure Burlington is not Police friendly. Nor is it even 'middle of the road' friendly. Basically - you have to be a wing nut to even run for office there anymore. Policies pushed to enable this sort of thing time and time again. No real punishments, increased pan handling and crime. Radical policies put into place pushing normal people out of the area. You tell me. What is the fix?
Prices will continue to rise, driven mostly by the well meaning but stupid policies of the people you're talking about. Most normal people won't leave, they'll just stop being politically active. As the prices rise more and more, less and less crunchy lefties will be able to afford to live here. Crunchy lefties are fundamentally incapable of activism outside their hometown and will therefore ignore the city they left to ruin the city they now occupy. An added impact will be displacement of the very people we're upset with, the junkie. As it is currently the junkie is hanging on by a thread, all housing has been priced out of their range. They can't survive long term in camps, if we don't continue to import junkies from other places our local junkie pop will die off from the elements and ODs in 5-10 years. Junkies simply don't live very long and will live even shorter lives if out in the elements all year. That will allow for the remaining bulk of normals to finally pick up the pieces and install a normal mayor.
I’m here for the comments AND I’M LOVIN’ IT JERRY!
RECALL "MAMA" EMMA MAYOR!! Her sperm donor babies need someone at home with them!
There was auto theft and an accident in a city?!? Stop the presses.
Is that dirty Mike and the boys?
Nothing. 
Personally, I think junkies should have immunity like Trump. Laws apply to everyone, or they apply to no one.
They do, we all have immunity. We don't enforce laws in this county anymore. If you look at the criminal docket on any given day its assaults where both parties know each other (so one tattled on the other), domestic abuse / sexual abuse situations, and DUIs. You can do literally what ever you want and as long as the victim does not know you and you didn't get recorded, the odds are that the 4-8 officers on call at any given time won't respond to it and you'll never ever face any consequences for anything you've done.
Was that a Volvo? I saw some Shady people gathered around one on Elmwood around 4:30
No. That dude is there most every day now. He’s blatantly dealing. Big dude. Urban haircut. Smudged temporary plates.
Even they hate the high prices at that place, I feel bad for the staff there except that one guy he is just an aging fossil.
City council should all be fired and mayor should be canned. Our leadership isn’t just pathetic, it’s dangerous.
Some one is having a bad day…. lol 😂
I think that this is tied to defunding the police. I think there use to be more cops on the beat and bikes downtown. Now the man only responds to crime that already happened.
Excellent post, [automatic]-[reddit username]-96. Excited to see what else you have in store for us these next few months! Keep up the hard work, comrade.
You’re right: they need to do more to reduce the number of cars in the downtown area.
I think they're still driving the car around.
What is your solution? More cops will not have any effect
*clutches pearls*
Maybe we could try helping our neighbors. Just a thought.
you mean the owners of the stolen car?
What are you doing to help your neighbors?