I think this is the kind of nuance that gets missed when the main message is just "trans men are men" and the message is supposed to be that trans people are the same as cis ones except we experience transphobia.
I have no issue with trans people who do resonate with that, but it just doesn't capture the diversity of the trans experience. I definitely relate more to you. My gender is fluid, and I don't fully relate to cis people of either gender. My experiences have been wildly different than that of a straight man. And even if I do end up passing and being seen as a man by other people, it wouldn't delete the impact of coming of age in the lesbian community and all this other stuff from my identity.
More and more I just label myself as queer to avoid explaining.
a big part of the reason i dont just identify as a trans man is that so many people want to force gender roles and expectations on me in a "gender affirming" way and i just. i didnt transition to be restricted again, and being trans doesnt suddenly make gender roles ethical and fun for the person. like really most cis people dont even like gender roles and part of my identity as an nonbinary/antibinary person is a core belief as a trans person and a feminist that ideally there would be no "binary" or gender roles because they are inherently misogynistic and transphobic and we cant just have equal rights for any gender minority while having these things in place. like honestly if i could identify as a man without being forced to follow all these rules i would. and also youre so right about the fact that we are not the same as cis people. even if trans people had equal rights to cis people, we would still have a distinctly trans experience, and honestly that rocks and i think the diversity in the human experience should be celebrated instead of hidden (sorry long rant i just think about this a lot)
Yes I totally agree. I also notice how this idea trans experiences can be understood through a cis binary lens is used to silence transmascs pretty frequently.
I've seen some pretty dumb shit both from people in my life and online, and both from cis and trans people. Like one of the dumber ones was people getting mad a trans man was appointed to a reproductive rights committee because "oh great, another man dictating what women can do with their bodies" as if comparing a trans man to a cis man in this context makes sense in any way. My old friend group acted like this too, I tried he/him pronouns at one point and when I tried to talk about misogyny I was experiencing they told my it shouldn't affect me because I didn't identify as a woman even though I had never once passed as male and only realized I was trans like a few months earlier. When I said it *had*impacted me and was a big struggle to let go of certain expectations of women in order to embrace my gender identity they said I was either lying or not really trans lmao.
But yeah I do think a lot of people are invested in affirming transmascs are men (and should be treated like cis guys in every way!) in part because that's a useful way to discredit our experiences and just tell us to shut up.
I love a good bit of gender fuckery. I think it's beautiful that you're exploring these things, but I also know how isolating it can feel to be inside and outside so many labels
My friend (transmasc) and i (non-binary/agender) talk about this a lot, and to me, you can be trans (in any sense) and be a lesbian and/or butch. It can be used both sexuality wise but it can also be used in a gender context, or just community wise!!! It's broader than people think
I’m a nonbinary butch “lesbian”. For me, a huge part of my identity is not really labeling myself. I like just being a person with no real binaries attached.
I could be trans, I could not be. Butch is the one word that seems to encapsulate all of it.
I struggle with this too. My experience of gender is very masculine and male, but I’m still very early in my transition so how I move through the world and the body that I interact with my girlfriend with is still very feminine so that makes me feel like a lesbian. I think that if I ever get to the point where I pass as a man I might feel more straight, but who knows. Maybe once I physically transition more I might be more comfortable with femininity and associating with feminine descriptors like Lesbian. I think this is a part of the “identity is fluid” sentiment that people don’t talk about as much cause most people think of fluidity in terms of gender-fluid or bisexual identities where it can change quickly. Contradictory identities only seem contradictory when we separate the physical body and gender expression when they are inherently tied together.
of course! another thing i just remembered, i would rec the book Butch Is A Noun by S Bear Bergman, written by him when he identified as a butch, and it was only years later that he realized he is a trans man. i think it would be comforting for you to check out the books contents. btw hes pretty active on social media from what i know!
I think this is the kind of nuance that gets missed when the main message is just "trans men are men" and the message is supposed to be that trans people are the same as cis ones except we experience transphobia. I have no issue with trans people who do resonate with that, but it just doesn't capture the diversity of the trans experience. I definitely relate more to you. My gender is fluid, and I don't fully relate to cis people of either gender. My experiences have been wildly different than that of a straight man. And even if I do end up passing and being seen as a man by other people, it wouldn't delete the impact of coming of age in the lesbian community and all this other stuff from my identity. More and more I just label myself as queer to avoid explaining.
a big part of the reason i dont just identify as a trans man is that so many people want to force gender roles and expectations on me in a "gender affirming" way and i just. i didnt transition to be restricted again, and being trans doesnt suddenly make gender roles ethical and fun for the person. like really most cis people dont even like gender roles and part of my identity as an nonbinary/antibinary person is a core belief as a trans person and a feminist that ideally there would be no "binary" or gender roles because they are inherently misogynistic and transphobic and we cant just have equal rights for any gender minority while having these things in place. like honestly if i could identify as a man without being forced to follow all these rules i would. and also youre so right about the fact that we are not the same as cis people. even if trans people had equal rights to cis people, we would still have a distinctly trans experience, and honestly that rocks and i think the diversity in the human experience should be celebrated instead of hidden (sorry long rant i just think about this a lot)
Yes I totally agree. I also notice how this idea trans experiences can be understood through a cis binary lens is used to silence transmascs pretty frequently. I've seen some pretty dumb shit both from people in my life and online, and both from cis and trans people. Like one of the dumber ones was people getting mad a trans man was appointed to a reproductive rights committee because "oh great, another man dictating what women can do with their bodies" as if comparing a trans man to a cis man in this context makes sense in any way. My old friend group acted like this too, I tried he/him pronouns at one point and when I tried to talk about misogyny I was experiencing they told my it shouldn't affect me because I didn't identify as a woman even though I had never once passed as male and only realized I was trans like a few months earlier. When I said it *had*impacted me and was a big struggle to let go of certain expectations of women in order to embrace my gender identity they said I was either lying or not really trans lmao. But yeah I do think a lot of people are invested in affirming transmascs are men (and should be treated like cis guys in every way!) in part because that's a useful way to discredit our experiences and just tell us to shut up.
I love a good bit of gender fuckery. I think it's beautiful that you're exploring these things, but I also know how isolating it can feel to be inside and outside so many labels
het t4t is awesome!
My friend (transmasc) and i (non-binary/agender) talk about this a lot, and to me, you can be trans (in any sense) and be a lesbian and/or butch. It can be used both sexuality wise but it can also be used in a gender context, or just community wise!!! It's broader than people think
I’m a nonbinary butch “lesbian”. For me, a huge part of my identity is not really labeling myself. I like just being a person with no real binaries attached. I could be trans, I could not be. Butch is the one word that seems to encapsulate all of it.
i can totally relate to some of this 🥹
Being trans masc does NOT mean you have to be straight.
yes of course but my dilemma is that while i am definitely a lesbian i just like the word straight/transhet/st4t on me yk
You can be a trans masc lesbian :) (I am)
I struggle with this too. My experience of gender is very masculine and male, but I’m still very early in my transition so how I move through the world and the body that I interact with my girlfriend with is still very feminine so that makes me feel like a lesbian. I think that if I ever get to the point where I pass as a man I might feel more straight, but who knows. Maybe once I physically transition more I might be more comfortable with femininity and associating with feminine descriptors like Lesbian. I think this is a part of the “identity is fluid” sentiment that people don’t talk about as much cause most people think of fluidity in terms of gender-fluid or bisexual identities where it can change quickly. Contradictory identities only seem contradictory when we separate the physical body and gender expression when they are inherently tied together.
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i appreciate this a ton, this was basically what i was wondering so thanks!
of course! another thing i just remembered, i would rec the book Butch Is A Noun by S Bear Bergman, written by him when he identified as a butch, and it was only years later that he realized he is a trans man. i think it would be comforting for you to check out the books contents. btw hes pretty active on social media from what i know!