Depends on the character you want to roleplay, a vengeful and callus run would mean imprisoning revoking and banishing people whilst in a more compassionate run would mean releasing them for the opinion buff. Overall though the best way to avoid rebellion is just to have a clean sucesion.
I did all the appeasing I could, it’s hard to run the Byzantine empire. I got to about year 900 when the opsikion led a rebellion that saw most of Greece, Thrace and western Anatolia yanked from me and given to symvatios. They killed my son too!
[This article](https://bleedingcool.com/games/crusader-kings-iii-roads-to-power-announced-for-september/) provides a good overview of what it will have.
How do Greek people view ere. i was in Athens last week, visited a church it was in Piraeus (sp?) iirc. i saw the statute of the last byzantine emperor and the Roman flags. i kinda liked it, gave me goosebumps
Unfortunately,the term "byzantine" has been adopted here because it implies something hellenic.
In general it is seen relatively good.Ancient Greece has replaced it as the model of our nation over the last 200 years and is far more popular than the ERE.
At best the average person knows only clichés.Meaning:Constantinople,Heraclius,Basil the Bulgarslayer,1204 and 1453.
We are basically brainwashed into forgetting our Romanity.
That's correct. Ρωμιός (Roman) means Greek and Ρωμιοσύνη (Roman-ness) means greekness. /u/bluecoldwhiskey you said that you are Greek. Why your comments are full of inaccuracies?
Anything you can imagine. Yesterday I was in a talk about Medieval Rome, thought it was more of a discussion where a well known Byzantinologist (I wont reveal his name, he is well known here) would reply to questions.
An old guy said something extremely false, like how "The Ancient Greeks invented Eros, the Byzantines invented Sin". He probably never heard of the Anthologia Palatina, the love-novels like Livistros and Rhodamne, Kallimachos and Chrysorrhoe, or Ysmene and Ysmeneas, or the "Erotic Epistles" of Aristainetos.
There is this twisted image of Medieval Rome. While the popular role-models were monks and saints, they were not only thinking about religion every day and all day long. This is simply and plainly ridiculous, and is only drawn from "Byzantium", the distorted image of Medieval Rome as dark and theocratic.
Yeah actually this is what I felt in Athens too, every thing was about ancient Greece, every museum, every souvenir shop. i also love ancient Greece so it was fine by me but it was kinda sad that i wasn't remembered that much, i felt that only the church cared byzantine era (ecumenical patriarchate flags etc)
Go to Thessaloniki. There is waaaay more Byzantine heritage there than in Athens, there's basically a 4th-13th century Byzantine church on every second street.
Athens and surrounding areas have some well preserved eastern Roman structures as well though, like dafni monastery, hosios loukas, and the numerous small to medium eastern Roman churches of Attica and Boeotia are all quite wonderful.
Greece as a modern nation kind of owes its independence from the Turks to Ancient Greece. Many greater western powers supported Greece’s fight for independence as they saw Greece as the cradle of western civilisation. As such, ever since modern independence, modern Greeks are proud of the achievements of classical Greece, but the Byzantine empire is seen as non-Greek (Roman) and they’re the people who lost to the Turks.
Modern Greece depends on tourism for something like 70% of its GDP and unfortunately most of the world aren’t interested in Byzantine chants, they want to see classical Greece.
>Modern Greece depends on tourism for something like 70% of its GDP and unfortunately most of the world aren’t interested in Byzantine chants, they want to see classical Greece.
Tourism amounts just 13% of Greece's GDP.
What? That is how it was last time I checked.
That is like, the highermost tribute the Maniots paid to the Ottoman Turks. Which is nothing, that is also as much as Irene of Athens paid the Abbasid Sultanate for 3 years as annual tribute in 782 AD. When the Ragusans or Moldovans of Wallachians were paying 30-40% of their revenue.
It is not that much.
Σε μια πιο στενή θεώρηση, δηλαδή μόνο της άμεσης συνεισφοράς του τουρισμού, εκτιμάται πως αυτή διαμορφώθηκε στα 28,5 δισ. ευρώ το 2023. Ποσό που αντιστοιχεί στο 13% του ΑΕΠ της χώρας και είναι το υψηλότερο, ιστορικά, για τον τομέα μέχρι σήμερα.
[https://www.kathimerini.gr/economy/562977619/ena-sta-tria-eyro-toy-aep-apo-ton-toyrismo/](https://www.kathimerini.gr/economy/562977619/ena-sta-tria-eyro-toy-aep-apo-ton-toyrismo/)
Εντάξει, ίσως είχα άδικο. Εδώ λέει για 1/3ο. Και πάλι δεν είνα 70%, έλεος.
Αλλά πολύ κακώς είναι τόσο ψηλό. Έχω σιχαθεί τους τουρίστες.
Then why did the great powers refuse to support them until the end of the war, and then install a puppet regime to keep the balance of power?
No, the war was already falling into Greek hands long before the west joined.
‘Romanticism’ doesn’t drive history economic interests and geopolitic do.
The reason every Greek rebellion started in Greece from 1500-1821 was because of Greek lords fighting to renegotiate their power split between them and the Sultan.
> the Byzantine empire is seen as non Greek.
By who??? Certainly not me or anyone who went to school with me. Even back then only Korais and a handful of westernised Greek intellectuals believed this. Certainly not the general population, not then, or now.
We owe our existence today to one thing. That Byzantium was so successful that we managed to grow a population so large that it could absorb the impact of the Turkish migration.
As for our twisted fame in the west, we owe that to Byzantium as well, lol.
They only know basic things. We are basically brainwashed into thinking that we have no Roman heritage despite being officially named the EASTERN ROMAN EMPIRE for 1000 years.
I am Greek as well. Where did you see the brainwashing and why are you talking about our medieval history as if it is some separate Roman heritage that we supposedly don't acknowledge? Greek schools dedicate 3 years in ancient Greek history, 3 years in byzantine history and 3 years in modern Greek history but you're talking as if medieval Greek history is ignored.
I am mainly talking about the term 'Byzantine' that we adopted. It's a sign of disrespect to our Roman ancestors who fought for the survival of their empire for centuries. It also feels like our medieval history books aren't as detailed as the ancient Greek ones. The Β γυμνασίου one for example doesn't even mention Belisarius. It doesn't speak about the western romans not one bit. It's disappointing to say the least.
Unfortunately many Greeks embrace the distorted image of "Byzantium", believing that if we deny their medieval ancestors' Romanness, we focus on their Greekness. Which is ridiculous, and one does not need that anyways, there is a massive plethora of sources that show the Medieval Romans also express their Greekness / Hellenism as a contemporary ethnic identity.
Yes. Why do folks not comprehend that it was much like it is today. There is a low culture and a high culture. Many people in the world express their local culture, but also seek to identify in any way they can with Americanization.
To appear "Hellenic", throughout much of Roman history, was a sign of noble ethnic and cultural identity much like appearing "Americanized" can serve a foreign person these days.
The Romans openly expressed their admiration for the Hellenes, preserving mainland Greece and protecting major Hellenic ports throughout the Mediterranean much as they had found them.
As long as those conquered Hellenes paid their tribute and sent their soldiers for the campaigns, I believe the Romans treated them with respect and consideration as contemporaries, when they could afford to or when they were in one of their just eras. There were so many weak and ineffective Roman emperors who oversaw long periods where Rome was a loose confederation with many disgruntled conquered semi-citizens breaking away...
Disrespect exists only when there are bad intentions. I don't think there is a problem when someone uses the word byzantine for the sake of convenience. But I would say that there is a problem when someone misuses deliberately the word Roman in order to present the medieval Greeks as the wrong kind of Romans. I don't think that the medieval Greeks would appreciate it if the only reason that someone was using the correct terminology was in order to distort their identity.
>It also feels like our medieval history books aren't as detailed as the ancient Greek ones.
Not really . Both of them include as many details as possible, considering that we're talking about school books.
>The Β γυμνασίου one for example doesn't even mention Belisarius
I think it does.
>It doesn't speak about the western romans not one bit.
Other countries focus on their own history and their own ancestors as well. Ancient Romans are mentioned but since they are not our ancestors the school books obviously focus on ancient Greeks and medieval Greeks/byzantines.
This is just a continuation of the propaganda war that was fought between the Western Romans and the Eastern Hellenes that has literally been fought from about 400-present. History books in Western Europe and America really dismiss the glorious centuries where Constantinople ruled without much help, actually with a bunch of meddling, from their icky cousins to the West who simply had a much better military organization and better system of tax/tribute inflows....
Turks absorbed people, they didn't influence genetically anyone in the region. And that's the case not only for the Greeks but for other Balkan peoples as well. That being said, what your comment has to do with what I said until now? And "Homie", "One love, baby" ? Από πού μας ήρθες εσύ;
Τι λες φίλε; Δεν νομίζεις ότι ο Τούρκος Εφέντης κ ο στρατιώτης δεν ευχαριστήθηκαν πάρα πολύ με τα κορίτσια μας για 400 χρόνια και;
Denying this part of racial conquest, I think, separates Greeks from Turks unnecessarily in the modern age.
Δε θα χαράκτηριζα τίποτα απ'οσα έγιναν ως "ευχαριστήθηκαν πάρα πολυ τα κορίτσια μας"
You keep talking as if what I mentioned is a personal opinion. I don' t need to deny anything and there is no need for assumptions in this case because there are genetists and genetic studies that have already given answers to this kind of questions. According to them what you claim is simply incorrect.
But aren't the origins of Rome itself Hellenic? Why is not the Western Roman Empire referred to as the Western Hellenic Empire? Most of what they did and thought had its roots in Classical Greece. They improved testing with Republican and Autocratic/Oligarchic forms of control throughout their history, adding to what they had learned from the Hellenes. But, at the end of the day, their testing was no match for the barbarian hordes and the truly Hellenic portion of the empire withstood far longer than the Western Hellenic upstarts, did they not?
It is not referred as Western Hellenic Empire because it was a Roman entity and it wouldn’t make any sense. Rome’s origins are not Hellenic.
They were later influenced by some aspects of Greek culture but that doesn’t make them Greeks.
Have a look into Rome's earliest moments. They modeled themselves after the Etruscans, who themselves had long been a Hellenized people with their own language and customs.
I think we are having a semantic exchange. Rome no doubt conquered and sometimes ruled Constantinople, but the wives of the senators in Rome made sure their sons knew Greek and the faith of Christ was brought to Rome eventually by speakers of common Greek and Aramaic, as Christ and His disciples spoke.
They took some cultural elements from the Etruscans, yes, but the Etruscans were an Italic people.
Etruscans and Greeks were different civilizations, they weren’t Hellenized. Their language was isolated and they had different customs.
While Greek culture had influenced Rome, I am not denying it, that doesn’t suddenly makes everyone a Greek.
Romans had different traditions, social norms, culture, political system, laws or language.
Suggesting that Rome should be called the Western Hellenic empire is absurd and anhistorical.
I don't know about it being "absurd." I think I was just trying to stir the pot to have an interesting conversation and maybe prompt myself to do some deeper learning. As a result of our exchange, (and I want to thank you for that), I did a deeper dive into the connections between the Latins, the Etruscans, and the Hellenes.
Needless to say that the Latins were a proud people. That's what helped them rise out of the dirt, learn from the Etruscans, then improve on the Etruscan mode, come to dominate the Etruscans, and then expand that formula outward with magnificent results.
This doesn't change the fact that the Etruscans, whether they knew they were doing it or not, were largely modeling themselves after Hellenes. Their language alphabet, if I am not mistaken, also derives from the Phoenician, like the Greeks.
I suppose, as a thought experiment, I could ask you whether, one thousand years from now, people will look at today's world as being "Chinese" or "American" or "Arab". How will they look back on all these competing empires?
The truth is that, if you look at the world today, all the nations of the world have become Americanized only since 1945...on the surface.
Now, 5 generations later, the world is again becoming Orientalized (K-pop, Saudis owning all the social media and energy markets). It looks like a pendulum going back and forth.
There is often a big difference between who is really in charge and who "appears" to be in charge, isn't there?
A historian in the year 3000 might reasonably surmise that while this most recent era appears to have been ruled by the American empire, you can see the sinews of Orientalism and the larger Oriental Empire of thought pushing the immature American ethos into a state of turmoil.
They might come to view the Americans' legitimacy of ruling the global civilization much the same way the Seleucids are viewed for their conquest and dominance of the Easter Roman Empire for a period. Just an unfortunate detour by some lucky upstarts....not really the "empire" that defined the era...
That's because the larger, more mature systems of European imperialist mercantile rule, Arab dominance, and Chinese autocracy of Asia, are drowning out this tenuous American experiment that is being driven primarily by unchecked military aggression, at this stage.
As a result, you might look back in the year 3000 and say, "Yes, the Americans spearheaded global military and technological dominance. The world was theirs but for a brief moment. But much like the Ancient Romans, their world was merely a thin veneer of military and political discipline and market coercion, coupled with merciless ambition and belief in manifest destiny. It couldn't really last."
America, and its barely tested systems of thinking and doing, are a looooooooong way from overthrowing the more mature Old World Imperialists and oligarchies.
It used to happen this way in Constantinople, too, when some new "rulers" would take the city and then realize they could accomplish nothing without appealing to the Hellenes and adopting their superior ways.
Just a framework....not trying to re-write the facts. Although obviously, as a Greek, I am biased with an agenda ;)
People tend to dismiss our Roman background and call us Hellenes instead. 1000 years of having a rex, having aqueducts, having a senate at times and people still tend to ignore what we had, what continued the Roman Empire. The funny thing is the Western Romans even had an emperor with heritage from the Eastern part, Anthemius.
I don't think ppl ignore what Rome was or what it contributed. It is only important to remember that without Hellenism to build upon, the nascent tribe from south of present-day Rome would not have been able to learn early principles of thinking and statecraft had they not copied the Etruscans to the north, their Hellenized counterparts. The Roman systems and philosophies of governance, and their military sciences are singular in history.
Just about every day. I wish I could've see Constantinople in its Golden Age. I would've loved to have seen the robotic birds tweeting in their tree and the throne that went up and down on a platform, with two roaring robot lions on either side of it!
That is not a necessity though. Japan "never fell" and people obsess with it, modern or ancient. Though if the Roman Empire never fell, you would actually not be obsessed as you would not exist, due to the butterfly effect.
Like every day because I am reading a book about Byzantine, lol.
But that's not news to me. We used to go pass under the walls once a week since my grandparents were living in "sur içi" ( inside the walls).
Also, during college times, my bus would go from Bakirkoy (aka Hebdomon) to Taksim (aka Pera) along the walls, and same on the way back after midnight. My view was the Theodasian walls, and I remember thinking a lot about Romans since I was a kid, as I also always loved history in general.
Besides being a fan, I am Eastern Orthodox and we have a saint from the ERE almost daily in the "saints of the day" readings. So it is typically throughout the day every day.
I think daily. Even without this sub, and especially now that I am playing as Ρωμανια in Ck2 ("formed" Rome, mended all the schisms, made orthodoxy the sole valid form of Christianity and the court culture is Tsakonian).
By first erecting a Satan worshipping empire out of Tsakonia lead by the vampiric spawn of Lucifer in form of basileia Anastasia Palaiologos who is then killed and succeeded by her grandson who exterminated all the satanists and supressed the iconoclasts who by then were the mainstream. So basically by following the Antichrist and then continuing on because it's fun. Normal (modded) Ck2 fun 🤗
Everyday, weather, it's What if's, alternate history, fiction. I have alot of ideas about Eastern Rome in my head that I always play out while making maps of the Gothic Wars, Avar Wars, Persian & Arab wars
At least once a day. Anytime things are going rough, I remind myself at least I'm not a Byzantine emperor being deposed & mutilated or tortured to death.
I also try to meditate on the idea of taking that job, knowing how it'll probably turn out for you. And how much horror people must have experienced in daily life then.
Almost as much as I think about the entire Roman Empire circa 100AD. But that's only almost as much as I think about the old Republic circa 150BC at a time when Rome was spanking cheeks across the Mediterranean before the struggles of maintaining said empire really kicked in.
For me, this is depending on the contexts of each situation. Sometimes, I think about them for entertainment such as imagining scenarios in my head. Sometimes, I think about them in certain specific period because that period happened to be one of my favorite periods in Eastern Roman history and also because I needed some knowledge to be bring to the table for some conversations.
Pretty much daily. One of the two history podcasts I'm listening to (mostly when I exercise) is The History of Byzantium. I''m about 170 episodes or so behind at the moment...
I am Byzantine Catholic. Constantine, the Emperor and namesake of Constantinople, is a saint of the Church. We often end liturgy with a hymn about the Blessed Mother being the Triumphant Leader of Constantinople.
So to answer your question, almost everyday man.
Any more than it makes the Greek speaking hellenes of the East Romans? How so, when the literal origins of the Roman dream were rooted in the Latin leaders seeking to copy as much from the Greeks at their inception? And the Greek speaking portion may have fallen militarily, but it's customs and systems still kept tribute flowing back to Rome.
Yes.
Just about every day again, thanks to the Crusader Kings III expansion.
How the hell do I stop my vassals from rebelling? Offensive war? Rebellion. Punish adulterers? Rebellion. Exist? Rebellion.
Depends on the character you want to roleplay, a vengeful and callus run would mean imprisoning revoking and banishing people whilst in a more compassionate run would mean releasing them for the opinion buff. Overall though the best way to avoid rebellion is just to have a clean sucesion.
I did all the appeasing I could, it’s hard to run the Byzantine empire. I got to about year 900 when the opsikion led a rebellion that saw most of Greece, Thrace and western Anatolia yanked from me and given to symvatios. They killed my son too!
What’s in the expansion? I wish they’d give us republics.
[This article](https://bleedingcool.com/games/crusader-kings-iii-roads-to-power-announced-for-september/) provides a good overview of what it will have.
Thanks. It’s great that Byzantium won’t have the feudal system anymore. Between that and the republics, I haven’t really played ck3 at all.
Same. ERE is so underrated and misunderstood even here in Greece.
How do Greek people view ere. i was in Athens last week, visited a church it was in Piraeus (sp?) iirc. i saw the statute of the last byzantine emperor and the Roman flags. i kinda liked it, gave me goosebumps
Unfortunately,the term "byzantine" has been adopted here because it implies something hellenic. In general it is seen relatively good.Ancient Greece has replaced it as the model of our nation over the last 200 years and is far more popular than the ERE. At best the average person knows only clichés.Meaning:Constantinople,Heraclius,Basil the Bulgarslayer,1204 and 1453. We are basically brainwashed into forgetting our Romanity.
Isn't the Greek word for 'Greek-ness' *romiosini*, i.e. 'Roman-ness'?
That's correct. Ρωμιός (Roman) means Greek and Ρωμιοσύνη (Roman-ness) means greekness. /u/bluecoldwhiskey you said that you are Greek. Why your comments are full of inaccuracies?
What inaccuracies? After 1821 only Romans = greeks.
Anything you can imagine. Yesterday I was in a talk about Medieval Rome, thought it was more of a discussion where a well known Byzantinologist (I wont reveal his name, he is well known here) would reply to questions. An old guy said something extremely false, like how "The Ancient Greeks invented Eros, the Byzantines invented Sin". He probably never heard of the Anthologia Palatina, the love-novels like Livistros and Rhodamne, Kallimachos and Chrysorrhoe, or Ysmene and Ysmeneas, or the "Erotic Epistles" of Aristainetos. There is this twisted image of Medieval Rome. While the popular role-models were monks and saints, they were not only thinking about religion every day and all day long. This is simply and plainly ridiculous, and is only drawn from "Byzantium", the distorted image of Medieval Rome as dark and theocratic.
Yeah actually this is what I felt in Athens too, every thing was about ancient Greece, every museum, every souvenir shop. i also love ancient Greece so it was fine by me but it was kinda sad that i wasn't remembered that much, i felt that only the church cared byzantine era (ecumenical patriarchate flags etc)
Go to Thessaloniki. There is waaaay more Byzantine heritage there than in Athens, there's basically a 4th-13th century Byzantine church on every second street.
Athens and surrounding areas have some well preserved eastern Roman structures as well though, like dafni monastery, hosios loukas, and the numerous small to medium eastern Roman churches of Attica and Boeotia are all quite wonderful.
Stupid king Otto ordered the destruction of Roman churches in Athens
Greece as a modern nation kind of owes its independence from the Turks to Ancient Greece. Many greater western powers supported Greece’s fight for independence as they saw Greece as the cradle of western civilisation. As such, ever since modern independence, modern Greeks are proud of the achievements of classical Greece, but the Byzantine empire is seen as non-Greek (Roman) and they’re the people who lost to the Turks. Modern Greece depends on tourism for something like 70% of its GDP and unfortunately most of the world aren’t interested in Byzantine chants, they want to see classical Greece.
>Modern Greece depends on tourism for something like 70% of its GDP and unfortunately most of the world aren’t interested in Byzantine chants, they want to see classical Greece. Tourism amounts just 13% of Greece's GDP.
What??
What? That is how it was last time I checked. That is like, the highermost tribute the Maniots paid to the Ottoman Turks. Which is nothing, that is also as much as Irene of Athens paid the Abbasid Sultanate for 3 years as annual tribute in 782 AD. When the Ragusans or Moldovans of Wallachians were paying 30-40% of their revenue. It is not that much.
I didn’t know that, is this on Wikipedia?
Σε μια πιο στενή θεώρηση, δηλαδή μόνο της άμεσης συνεισφοράς του τουρισμού, εκτιμάται πως αυτή διαμορφώθηκε στα 28,5 δισ. ευρώ το 2023. Ποσό που αντιστοιχεί στο 13% του ΑΕΠ της χώρας και είναι το υψηλότερο, ιστορικά, για τον τομέα μέχρι σήμερα. [https://www.kathimerini.gr/economy/562977619/ena-sta-tria-eyro-toy-aep-apo-ton-toyrismo/](https://www.kathimerini.gr/economy/562977619/ena-sta-tria-eyro-toy-aep-apo-ton-toyrismo/) Εντάξει, ίσως είχα άδικο. Εδώ λέει για 1/3ο. Και πάλι δεν είνα 70%, έλεος. Αλλά πολύ κακώς είναι τόσο ψηλό. Έχω σιχαθεί τους τουρίστες.
Then why did the great powers refuse to support them until the end of the war, and then install a puppet regime to keep the balance of power? No, the war was already falling into Greek hands long before the west joined. ‘Romanticism’ doesn’t drive history economic interests and geopolitic do. The reason every Greek rebellion started in Greece from 1500-1821 was because of Greek lords fighting to renegotiate their power split between them and the Sultan. > the Byzantine empire is seen as non Greek. By who??? Certainly not me or anyone who went to school with me. Even back then only Korais and a handful of westernised Greek intellectuals believed this. Certainly not the general population, not then, or now. We owe our existence today to one thing. That Byzantium was so successful that we managed to grow a population so large that it could absorb the impact of the Turkish migration. As for our twisted fame in the west, we owe that to Byzantium as well, lol.
Bravo. Kala ta eipes. The European kings saw a chance to snatch Greece, and they did. Imperialism, and romanticism, working hand in hand....
>but the Byzantine empire is seen as non-Greek (Roman) and they’re the people who lost to the Turks No
What do most people tend to know about it?
They only know basic things. We are basically brainwashed into thinking that we have no Roman heritage despite being officially named the EASTERN ROMAN EMPIRE for 1000 years.
Just Roman Empire actually
Rhomania to be exact
What a shame. Absolutely love Eastern Roman Empire, I'm from Finland.
It’s a shame. I’m Greek and I’m more interested in Byzantine history than Classical Greece.
Me too!
"We"? You are a Turk. The question was about Greeks.
I am half Turkish half Greek. I can fluently speak both languages. If that doesn't count then idk what does.
I am Greek as well. Where did you see the brainwashing and why are you talking about our medieval history as if it is some separate Roman heritage that we supposedly don't acknowledge? Greek schools dedicate 3 years in ancient Greek history, 3 years in byzantine history and 3 years in modern Greek history but you're talking as if medieval Greek history is ignored.
I am mainly talking about the term 'Byzantine' that we adopted. It's a sign of disrespect to our Roman ancestors who fought for the survival of their empire for centuries. It also feels like our medieval history books aren't as detailed as the ancient Greek ones. The Β γυμνασίου one for example doesn't even mention Belisarius. It doesn't speak about the western romans not one bit. It's disappointing to say the least.
Unfortunately many Greeks embrace the distorted image of "Byzantium", believing that if we deny their medieval ancestors' Romanness, we focus on their Greekness. Which is ridiculous, and one does not need that anyways, there is a massive plethora of sources that show the Medieval Romans also express their Greekness / Hellenism as a contemporary ethnic identity.
Yes. Why do folks not comprehend that it was much like it is today. There is a low culture and a high culture. Many people in the world express their local culture, but also seek to identify in any way they can with Americanization. To appear "Hellenic", throughout much of Roman history, was a sign of noble ethnic and cultural identity much like appearing "Americanized" can serve a foreign person these days. The Romans openly expressed their admiration for the Hellenes, preserving mainland Greece and protecting major Hellenic ports throughout the Mediterranean much as they had found them. As long as those conquered Hellenes paid their tribute and sent their soldiers for the campaigns, I believe the Romans treated them with respect and consideration as contemporaries, when they could afford to or when they were in one of their just eras. There were so many weak and ineffective Roman emperors who oversaw long periods where Rome was a loose confederation with many disgruntled conquered semi-citizens breaking away...
Disrespect exists only when there are bad intentions. I don't think there is a problem when someone uses the word byzantine for the sake of convenience. But I would say that there is a problem when someone misuses deliberately the word Roman in order to present the medieval Greeks as the wrong kind of Romans. I don't think that the medieval Greeks would appreciate it if the only reason that someone was using the correct terminology was in order to distort their identity. >It also feels like our medieval history books aren't as detailed as the ancient Greek ones. Not really . Both of them include as many details as possible, considering that we're talking about school books. >The Β γυμνασίου one for example doesn't even mention Belisarius I think it does. >It doesn't speak about the western romans not one bit. Other countries focus on their own history and their own ancestors as well. Ancient Romans are mentioned but since they are not our ancestors the school books obviously focus on ancient Greeks and medieval Greeks/byzantines.
This is just a continuation of the propaganda war that was fought between the Western Romans and the Eastern Hellenes that has literally been fought from about 400-present. History books in Western Europe and America really dismiss the glorious centuries where Constantinople ruled without much help, actually with a bunch of meddling, from their icky cousins to the West who simply had a much better military organization and better system of tax/tribute inflows....
Check that Greek blood of yours, homie. 99% guaranteed you've got Turk in you. One love, baby.
Turks absorbed people, they didn't influence genetically anyone in the region. And that's the case not only for the Greeks but for other Balkan peoples as well. That being said, what your comment has to do with what I said until now? And "Homie", "One love, baby" ? Από πού μας ήρθες εσύ;
Τι λες φίλε; Δεν νομίζεις ότι ο Τούρκος Εφέντης κ ο στρατιώτης δεν ευχαριστήθηκαν πάρα πολύ με τα κορίτσια μας για 400 χρόνια και; Denying this part of racial conquest, I think, separates Greeks from Turks unnecessarily in the modern age.
Δε θα χαράκτηριζα τίποτα απ'οσα έγιναν ως "ευχαριστήθηκαν πάρα πολυ τα κορίτσια μας" You keep talking as if what I mentioned is a personal opinion. I don' t need to deny anything and there is no need for assumptions in this case because there are genetists and genetic studies that have already given answers to this kind of questions. According to them what you claim is simply incorrect.
Do you have a source for that?
But aren't the origins of Rome itself Hellenic? Why is not the Western Roman Empire referred to as the Western Hellenic Empire? Most of what they did and thought had its roots in Classical Greece. They improved testing with Republican and Autocratic/Oligarchic forms of control throughout their history, adding to what they had learned from the Hellenes. But, at the end of the day, their testing was no match for the barbarian hordes and the truly Hellenic portion of the empire withstood far longer than the Western Hellenic upstarts, did they not?
It is not referred as Western Hellenic Empire because it was a Roman entity and it wouldn’t make any sense. Rome’s origins are not Hellenic. They were later influenced by some aspects of Greek culture but that doesn’t make them Greeks.
Have a look into Rome's earliest moments. They modeled themselves after the Etruscans, who themselves had long been a Hellenized people with their own language and customs. I think we are having a semantic exchange. Rome no doubt conquered and sometimes ruled Constantinople, but the wives of the senators in Rome made sure their sons knew Greek and the faith of Christ was brought to Rome eventually by speakers of common Greek and Aramaic, as Christ and His disciples spoke.
They took some cultural elements from the Etruscans, yes, but the Etruscans were an Italic people. Etruscans and Greeks were different civilizations, they weren’t Hellenized. Their language was isolated and they had different customs. While Greek culture had influenced Rome, I am not denying it, that doesn’t suddenly makes everyone a Greek. Romans had different traditions, social norms, culture, political system, laws or language. Suggesting that Rome should be called the Western Hellenic empire is absurd and anhistorical.
I don't know about it being "absurd." I think I was just trying to stir the pot to have an interesting conversation and maybe prompt myself to do some deeper learning. As a result of our exchange, (and I want to thank you for that), I did a deeper dive into the connections between the Latins, the Etruscans, and the Hellenes. Needless to say that the Latins were a proud people. That's what helped them rise out of the dirt, learn from the Etruscans, then improve on the Etruscan mode, come to dominate the Etruscans, and then expand that formula outward with magnificent results. This doesn't change the fact that the Etruscans, whether they knew they were doing it or not, were largely modeling themselves after Hellenes. Their language alphabet, if I am not mistaken, also derives from the Phoenician, like the Greeks. I suppose, as a thought experiment, I could ask you whether, one thousand years from now, people will look at today's world as being "Chinese" or "American" or "Arab". How will they look back on all these competing empires? The truth is that, if you look at the world today, all the nations of the world have become Americanized only since 1945...on the surface. Now, 5 generations later, the world is again becoming Orientalized (K-pop, Saudis owning all the social media and energy markets). It looks like a pendulum going back and forth. There is often a big difference between who is really in charge and who "appears" to be in charge, isn't there? A historian in the year 3000 might reasonably surmise that while this most recent era appears to have been ruled by the American empire, you can see the sinews of Orientalism and the larger Oriental Empire of thought pushing the immature American ethos into a state of turmoil. They might come to view the Americans' legitimacy of ruling the global civilization much the same way the Seleucids are viewed for their conquest and dominance of the Easter Roman Empire for a period. Just an unfortunate detour by some lucky upstarts....not really the "empire" that defined the era... That's because the larger, more mature systems of European imperialist mercantile rule, Arab dominance, and Chinese autocracy of Asia, are drowning out this tenuous American experiment that is being driven primarily by unchecked military aggression, at this stage. As a result, you might look back in the year 3000 and say, "Yes, the Americans spearheaded global military and technological dominance. The world was theirs but for a brief moment. But much like the Ancient Romans, their world was merely a thin veneer of military and political discipline and market coercion, coupled with merciless ambition and belief in manifest destiny. It couldn't really last." America, and its barely tested systems of thinking and doing, are a looooooooong way from overthrowing the more mature Old World Imperialists and oligarchies. It used to happen this way in Constantinople, too, when some new "rulers" would take the city and then realize they could accomplish nothing without appealing to the Hellenes and adopting their superior ways. Just a framework....not trying to re-write the facts. Although obviously, as a Greek, I am biased with an agenda ;)
People tend to dismiss our Roman background and call us Hellenes instead. 1000 years of having a rex, having aqueducts, having a senate at times and people still tend to ignore what we had, what continued the Roman Empire. The funny thing is the Western Romans even had an emperor with heritage from the Eastern part, Anthemius.
I don't think ppl ignore what Rome was or what it contributed. It is only important to remember that without Hellenism to build upon, the nascent tribe from south of present-day Rome would not have been able to learn early principles of thinking and statecraft had they not copied the Etruscans to the north, their Hellenized counterparts. The Roman systems and philosophies of governance, and their military sciences are singular in history.
All day long
All the time, doesn’t help I started building a Constantinople inspired city in Minecraft. I have aptly named in Blockstantinople.
How can one go a single day without thinking about the wonders of Justinian's reconquest?
"Gladius Romae sum, Belisarius!"
Just about every day. I wish I could've see Constantinople in its Golden Age. I would've loved to have seen the robotic birds tweeting in their tree and the throne that went up and down on a platform, with two roaring robot lions on either side of it!
Every day I lament the fall of constantinople
I’m horrified to realise that if the ERE never fell, I wouldn’t be as obsessed with it.
That is not a necessity though. Japan "never fell" and people obsess with it, modern or ancient. Though if the Roman Empire never fell, you would actually not be obsessed as you would not exist, due to the butterfly effect.
Like every day because I am reading a book about Byzantine, lol. But that's not news to me. We used to go pass under the walls once a week since my grandparents were living in "sur içi" ( inside the walls). Also, during college times, my bus would go from Bakirkoy (aka Hebdomon) to Taksim (aka Pera) along the walls, and same on the way back after midnight. My view was the Theodasian walls, and I remember thinking a lot about Romans since I was a kid, as I also always loved history in general.
I think about it enough to know that the Justinian era and Heraclius era should have their own series.
Every time I have sex with my Mexican wife (unrelated fact)
Based on
Herasslius of course!
Yes
At least once a day, thanks to this sub.
Past few months since I got into ERE more, it's been daily. I find 'Byzantium' more fascinating than ancient Rome.
Whenever I feel like crying
Every day I think about how we shall restore Constantinople. One day brothers
A Greek Turkish confederation is even sweeter.
A confederation? Ask the Pontic Greeks how living with the Turks went.... Or the ones in Cyprus...
I do not support it.I just wish it could be possible.There is too much bad blood between us
Many times a day
Besides being a fan, I am Eastern Orthodox and we have a saint from the ERE almost daily in the "saints of the day" readings. So it is typically throughout the day every day.
I think daily. Even without this sub, and especially now that I am playing as Ρωμανια in Ck2 ("formed" Rome, mended all the schisms, made orthodoxy the sole valid form of Christianity and the court culture is Tsakonian).
How on earth does one convince the Tzakones to abandon their mountain for the court?!
By first erecting a Satan worshipping empire out of Tsakonia lead by the vampiric spawn of Lucifer in form of basileia Anastasia Palaiologos who is then killed and succeeded by her grandson who exterminated all the satanists and supressed the iconoclasts who by then were the mainstream. So basically by following the Antichrist and then continuing on because it's fun. Normal (modded) Ck2 fun 🤗
*When the phone battery drops to 81 percent* UNN MEIN GOTT A REFERENCE TO THE YEAR Αλέξιος Κομνηνός became emperor! I think about it a bit.
Every day
Almost every day.
I don't make a difference, I think daily about the Roman empire, and the empire is Roman, no matter the era.
Daily right now as I'm reading Kaldellis' "New Roman Empire". Weekly since the days of History of Rome and History of Byzantium.
Every single day. It’s a history that it’s been unfortunately stolen from the world and slowly, but surely needs to be restored
Everyday, weather, it's What if's, alternate history, fiction. I have alot of ideas about Eastern Rome in my head that I always play out while making maps of the Gothic Wars, Avar Wars, Persian & Arab wars
YungLean's Song Boylife in EU resonates. All I think about is you. Decompose me decompose you.
When my wife asked me how often I thought about the Roman Empire, I answered, “Does Byzantium count?” I guess that means a lot.
Every day.
Every damn day
At least once a day. Anytime things are going rough, I remind myself at least I'm not a Byzantine emperor being deposed & mutilated or tortured to death. I also try to meditate on the idea of taking that job, knowing how it'll probably turn out for you. And how much horror people must have experienced in daily life then.
All day, every day
Almost as much as I think about the entire Roman Empire circa 100AD. But that's only almost as much as I think about the old Republic circa 150BC at a time when Rome was spanking cheeks across the Mediterranean before the struggles of maintaining said empire really kicked in.
I'm a Medieval Studies major, so I probably think of the Eastern Roman Empire more often than most people, lol.
Daily
Literally everyday it’s to the point where I struggle to have productive days because I just start reading ERE history
Rome is eternal! (Eternally in my thoughts)
Yes.
every day atleast once
Two, maybe 3 times a day.
Most of the times it’s daily
I think of it every day and often wonder when it will come back :(
For me, this is depending on the contexts of each situation. Sometimes, I think about them for entertainment such as imagining scenarios in my head. Sometimes, I think about them in certain specific period because that period happened to be one of my favorite periods in Eastern Roman history and also because I needed some knowledge to be bring to the table for some conversations.
I could but I'd be guilty of thinking of the previous whole...
Every night when I'm banging my gf
I think about it every day because the Byzantine Empire is an ideal, an ideal of resistance and values
Pretty much daily. One of the two history podcasts I'm listening to (mostly when I exercise) is The History of Byzantium. I''m about 170 episodes or so behind at the moment...
not as much as i think of the Roman Empire
Whenever I can't think a U.S. politician or official could not be anymore incompetent I remember that the Angelos and Dukas dynasties existed.
I am Byzantine Catholic. Constantine, the Emperor and namesake of Constantinople, is a saint of the Church. We often end liturgy with a hymn about the Blessed Mother being the Triumphant Leader of Constantinople. So to answer your question, almost everyday man.
I think of the Wholly Roman Empire everyday.
Every day
Any more than it makes the Greek speaking hellenes of the East Romans? How so, when the literal origins of the Roman dream were rooted in the Latin leaders seeking to copy as much from the Greeks at their inception? And the Greek speaking portion may have fallen militarily, but it's customs and systems still kept tribute flowing back to Rome.