It's funny because jobs are already killed so unsure how a tax hike would make it worse. If anything it will push business owners to reinvest profits within there business.
These millionaires don’t create jobs they just want us all to think they do.
It’s a well orchestrated lie
We need them to pay their taxes like the rest of us slubs
Asking to pay a slightly higher tax rate to make them on par with nurses isn’t something that bothers me in the least.
My main issue is the term they always use are “jobs”
Maybe Im just being pedantic, but I dont care about more jobs being created, I want more solid careers to be created. “Jobs” are usually dead end and shitty. Careers usually have upward mobility and, well, are still usually shitty sadly
It's the same trickle down economics bullshit. It's like they think we're so stupid that greedy execs that loooove money are going to actually try to trickle that money down to us.
Best way is to crank up the corporate tax rates. Capital gains is chump change compared to corporate tax increases, corporate tax is unavoidable. If this bill passes, they just won't sell. They'll borrow against it.
And there it is. The CPC spewing tricke-down bullshit in order to support tax cuts for the wealthy.
Anyone that thinks PP and his CPC are going to lift one finger for the working class is living in a dream land.
Won't someone think of the rich? Trickle down will some day come true, even if decades of research show it it false.
And Poilievre using the Republican job creators talking point is a poor choice, in my opinion. No one believes the rich make jobs just because they want to anymore. They make them as low paying as possible and that is the reason we are flooded with TFWs, PR seekers and Immigrants. The rich need constant flow of desperate people willing to keep wages down.
I will somewhat agree with that sentiment on job creation.
Our culture and economy does not promote investment into new businesses. Instead we see alot of investment in real estate.
It works for America because they are innovators and lead a lot of the health care and tech innovations. Their system is built to incentivize that. Of course there are cons to their system like wealth disparity.
We do need an environment where businesses can thrive because that’s when people thrive, but we have a culture of being unproductive.
Businesses should be incentivized to grow their business instead of their real estate portfolio.
I’m not a fan of the increased capital gains tax because of the effects of skilled professionals leaving, and knowing that the government probably wouldn’t even put it to good use. They pay themselves more than enough to run this country to the ground. Perhaps they will pay themselves more, or hire another consultancy to tell them what to do.
Again, as a point of clarity on the on-going chatter surrounding Canadian productivity.
The Canadian economy does not have a productivity problem relative to America. Here is the study which highlights why the Canadian economy shows a lagging total factor productivity number relative to America. Oil.
The oil sands opened up in 2001, which directly coincides with our lagging productivity - because capital input into oil extraction in Canada rose from a historical 5-8%, to 35%, for the same outputs of ~5%.
When you exclude oil from data and compare it to America with oil excluded as well, our total factor productivity growth has matched and mirrored the growth seen in America over the last 20 years.
Their oil is less costly to extract (think ocean extract in the gulf and fracking) and thus doesn’t drag down their productivity like our expensive oil sands do here in Canada.
Additionally our economy is smaller so the drag exposed by the oil sector is more prominent.
TLDR: excluding the oil sector, Canadas productivity matches Americas in a number of core sectors. Canadian oil is more capital intensive to extract, and is exclusively responsible for the total productivity stagnation we’ve seen over the last 20 years.
Section 4, 5 and 6 cover this extensively.
https://productivitypartnership.ca/sites/default/files/documents/candianproductivity-loertscherpujolas-5aug2023.pdf
Skilled professionals have been leaving for over a decade and capital gains was never the reason. The wages here are no where close to the US full stop, there will never be a culture of innovation so long as that is true. Defending trickle down economics isn't going to fix anything, the people in power want lower wages because they don't care about innovation, they only want to squeeze profits. It should also be noted the US and other places are eyeing the same increases, low capital gains is causing weird loopholes where destroying businesses is making PE money
Why do you think the wages are lower? If there was more investment, to create more companies, and create more competition for talent, wouldn’t that drive wages? Also not to mention a lot of people in tech receive significant comp from stock. Hmm now what causes that to go up?! Investment!
A glut of workers racing to the bottom, when amazon was looking for a new HQ the feds pitch was that we have cheap wages and they will work to keep them cheap. I wish we got enough stock for these capital gains changes to matter but we don't, that would require having the bargaining power tech workers in the states have
Increase capital gains tax incentives business productivity. If it makes more sense to just have your corp hold equities or something, then you'll do that instead of capital investments in equipment or staffing.
Trickle down all nice and yellow from our capitalists all over our faces for us to enjoy, just like they promised our parents and their parents before them.
Petit Pierre has never had a job. Not once, not ever was he employed or working in anything other than political parties. He has no idea how anything works.
I am sure there is a lot of complexity to all of this but years and years ago I dated a girl with a wealthy father that ran several companies. Under the Harper regime there was a big thing to "grow businesses" by cutting corporate taxes from 22 to 15%
I was a dumb recent uni graduate goober chatting to him one night at dinner about business stuff. I didn't understand any big picture things so I was poking and prodding because the tax cut had been in the news cycle. I at one point asked if he was going to hire more people or open a new shop for his business with the tax cut.
Guy took a sip of his wine and said "fuck no, I am going to buy a bigger boat" and started gleefully laughing. He did indeed buy himself a significantly larger boat about a year later
There are some businesses that may benefit from such tax cuts that are struggling to get by but there are an equal or greater amount of individuals that get really rich off this shit.
This guy obviously didn’t understand tax integration in Canada. He didn’t save any tax overall when he removed the money from the corp to buy the boat, even with a lower corporate rate.
Nope but he likely used a ‘pipeline transaction’ to extract the funds at capital gains rate of say 25% vs non-eligible dividend rate of say 45% effectively stealing 20% from Canadian taxpayers on those very integration rules you are talking about.
The 2/3 capital gains inclusion rate helps to shut down some of this tax loophole but only over eligible vs capital gains rate.
But even if you can lower that spread to just 10% on the non-eligible it is still less tempting with AMT and all the legal costs to assemble the loophole.
They definitely catch these when they do the audit, but that's only relevant when they do an audit. I'm shocked how many people I run into that have personal-use property inside a corporation, and how laissez-faire their accountants are about it.
Their accountants tell them too. Nobody police’s the accountants. CPA orgs don’t check the quality of your work. They only check that you are check marking the right parts of your independence checklist everyone has the same one of.
This is a bit of a Canada issue. In the US, we do see a lot of businesses reinvesting into their business because they know the outcome would be exponential if it pans out.
Our startups are always behind the US market, and we cannot compete with the funding and investment they get. It’s a shame but Canada has a weird culture, it’s like we are doing capitalism wrong.
> Our startups are always behind the US market
Honestly, the more exposure I get with startups the more I tend to think the US military/police plays an outsized role in this phenomena. There is just a truly stupid amount of money available to US based startups that can demonstrate even a tangential military benefit.
That is essentially how silicone valley started up. Decades of defence spending on projects to defeat the Soviets. By the 70s, it was hard to create foreign competition to such an established sector with high education and intel/hp/ibm right next door.
Yes there is a lot of money that doesn’t create much, but there are also unicorns especially in tech. The great thing is that there are rich venture capitalists willing to invest in the next big thing instead of hoarding their own wealth. Even if those startups fail, at least people are getting paid, taxes are paid, and wealth is being transferred in a meaningful way.
I wasn’t referring to military as I don’t have much knowledge on that industry, but the funding for health care and tech in general does allow for some great innovations.
Capital gains for US corporations is 100% inclusion so this rate change to 2/3 inclusion still put Canadian corp at an advantage to the US. How many people have a $250k gain on their personal tax return. I do hundreds every year and I rarely see it. Maybe on a deceased person’s return or an extremely rich taxpayer.
Higher taxes absolutely encourage investment within a corporation in order to reduce tax liabilities. This is probably why when corporate taxes were slashed (happened starting in the 80s and through the 90s) we also see companies investing less in workers. There is a reason that the 50s were such a prosperous time. The corporate tax rates and top personal marginal rates were very high. This was also when many social programs were being introduced (rather than slashed as they have been since the 80s going on to today) so the tax money that was collected was being invested back into society and actual people. As this has been dismantled (as I said, starting in the 80s), we have seen increasing social inequality and problems as the cumulative effect adds up and starts to become evident. It is unsurprising.
The 50s were prosperous bc the rest of the world was destroyed during WW2 and in the process of rebuilding and everyone was using US firms bc the mainland was spared from the disastrous consequences of the war. The US had all factories intact and humming snd able to transition to manufacturing non-military goods.
Our risk capital would rather invest in resource extraction. No one has come up with a good way to change that bias, even though we have the universities and tech talent to make it happen. VC is always the missing piece.
Yup it is concerning but makes sense for the banks to consider real estate less risky! Real estate is our bread and butter. If we look at the richest people in Canada , there’s a theme in real estate and land development. Even the people who made their money in something like tech, start investing in real estate after to build their wealth.
Then he twirled his moustache and lit a cigar with a hundred dollar bill, while reclining on his chair made of children. Their cries only made him laugh harder. That man’s name: Albert Einstein
i'm sure this happened. surprised you didn't describe him pot-bellied, wearing a suit and a top hat, and that you didn't include him lighting a cuban cigar with a hundred dollar bill. that would have really tied your creative writing essay together.
Nah he was a pretty chill guy but he has all his long term contracts lined up, companies running efficiently and he was mega loaded.
There was no need or desire to expand or hire or grow so everything was just money in his pocket
Somebody built that boat, right? Somebody maintains that boat. Somebody sells the fuel.
What's more, the government taxes the boat, the fuel, the guy who imports the boat's salary if it's not locally made, his insurance guys' salary and the salary of the guy who makes sandwiches for the boat salesman's insurance guy.
The economy is not a straight stripe.
Someone made a typo on social media, clearly that means they have no idea what they are talking about.
Here's a tip, everyone makes typos. If it's an important doc, people pay attention and fix it. If it is reddit, they generally don't care.
>if it is Reddit, they generally don't care
What? Reddit is THEE number one place where people correct spelling and grammer. You could make a post about how you're missing your dead mom alot and someone will be like
"Ackutually it's a lot, Alot is a town in India but I'm sure you already knew that🤓"
No party is going to change how we do things, so my opinion means nothing .
We will keep doing nothing and keep playing the political blame game.
So enjoy those high food prices , gas prices , home prices, and poor services. Well, corporations make record profits .
Yep, I spelled a word wrong, and your only contribution is pointing that out...says more about you as a person than me.
You're right, the egregious thing isn't the fact that you misspelled a common word. It's that you write and seem to think in facile cliches and slogans.
There are a number of these that keep showing up on reddit. "Trickle down economics doesn't work" is a popular one, because it's easy to understand, stokes the fires of class warfare, and is repeated so often it has the power of consensus behind it. I challenge you: can you even describe what trickle down economics means (it doesn't mean "don't tax the rich"); can you tell someone how and when it was disproven, and by whom; can you describe parallels between Reagan's America (apparently erroneously touted as the trickle down economics era) and Canada today - or really any economy today; can you think about these things in terms beyond reddit platitudes like "the rich want to divide us," "corporations are evil," or "just let in fewer immigrants"?
I mean this. If you're a real person and not a bot, really think about it. If you just reword things you've read on reddit because that makes sense to you, that's certainly _a_ way of thinking, but it's not a way of thinking that'll help you out.
Peace.
That's a lot of words to say i am right.
We have had 40 years of the economic policy of trickle-down economics that was introduced in the 80s
More wealth now sits at the top with corporations and the rich than the bottom 99% .
Tax breaks , corporate welfare , subsides.. corprate taxs are lower tyrn any time in history, allowing corporations to automate production or use auto mated tellers .. cutting costs and making more profits.
Profits being given to shareholders... not a dime is going to lower costs for consumers , wages remain low and stagnet,
But you keep pretending the system we currently have is working is helping the average person.
Sorry if the slogans are catchy, but it's true.
Lol no you’re not right. You’re just reciting things you’ve read on this site and didn’t address anything I asked you to think about. You’d have been an apparatchik in another time, but really that’s just saying you are lost and angry, with a dollop of self righteous. I hope things turn a leaf for you soon, so you can get away from these destructive and reductionist ideas you’re parroting.
Good luck bro. Life gets better as soon as you log off.
Lmao gotta love Canadian conservatives. Still trying trickle down economics like the American conservatives haven't been trying it for 50+ years.
Why does it feel like we're always doing shit from 10 to 20 years ago
What kind of jobs does free cash for people who are already rich make? Enough bullshit PP. The people who pay the tax won’t even spend the money in Canada, they’ll buy a boat in Florida. Suck eggs lying PP.
The capital gains inclusion rate was dropped from 75% to 50% in 2000 by Chretien.
History has shown that Increasing the capital gains rate (or taxing assets) is counterproductive to economic growth, but unfortunately, the current version of the LPC is either too stupid or too corrupt to care. Based on the past nine year performance of the LPC, there is no reason to believe that tax increases will result in any tangible benefit to tax-payers.
I dislike the right wing social Conservatives a lot, but love it when the “party of the working class people” makes decisions that hurt 90% of households yet benefit my household. Somehow dental care, childcare and pharmacare is evil and communist but not taxing capital gains is good… I wonder how many supporters of this party will ever have capital gains to tax since primary residency is exempt?
If you look at the people in the liberal party a lot of their background is pretty bourgeoisie. Pierre actually has a more normal background.
All parties do have corrupt people that line their own pockets.
>If you look at the people in the liberal party a lot of their background is pretty bourgeoisie. Pierre actually has a more normal background.
His parents do not him, his first job was literally to be one of the the attack dog of the prime minister of Canada.
>If you look at the people in the liberal party a lot of their background is pretty bourgeoisie. Pierre actually has a more normal background.
Yeah I know.
Given the history of Conservatism, I’m not the least bit shocked they’re against it. That’s all.
His background of coming from a normal family. The fact that he pursued politics and did not come from an affluent family is a big deal. A lot of people from normal or poor backgrounds that pursue politics realize that it’s extremely difficult to be politician when you’re not well connected. It’s sad because it would be great if we had various perspectives, but it just doesn’t make sense financially for most people.
Usually these politicians grew up with some privilege and exposure to other politicians really early on, so they could build those connections.
Im also not male LOL
Pierre joined the party very young and got his job through insider party connections. He dropped out of college to work with the party as a political consultant. He later went back and finished his degree after he was elected.
I would also pay attention to who he surrounds himself with. Cause those corporate donors also like hanging around the conservatives.
Not only was he raised by an upper middle class family in Alberta (2 teachers in the 80's when that profession was still respected and properly funded), he was also very involved in politics well before he was of age to even vote. He was making connections at 14 yrs old.
Your assumption that he was a poor kid with no political ties is completely false. He was well connected before he even went off to college and had a well educated family who provided him a lot more opportunity than most people get. I don't like PP at all personally but I also would never underestimate how much influence he has had for a very long career that started well before most people think. He's cunning, smart and driven... That's a terrifying combination for a world leader.
Which jobs would it kill?
I always find how these things are framed very interesting.
"They want to raise taxes"
Taxes on whom? Whose taxes are they raising? The workers at a company, or their regional managers?
I assume the talking point will be "if you raise taxes, they'll look for ways to cut expenses, which means layoffs" an interesting proposition if you assume a company's entire reason for existing is to generate profits and cut expenses. Shareholders want returns on their investments. If there aren't more customers purchasing the product, how does a company--whose goal is to generate profit going to do that? Well we've seen it, they'll fire staff anyway.
If you're someone who got laid off, and you vote for someone who wants the people who laid you off to be taxed *less*, how is that in your interest? How does it help you to know your boss is getting a bigger paycheck and keeping more of their income?
>I assume the talking point will be "if you raise taxes, they'll look for ways to cut expenses, which means layoffs"
This is a big part of the issue. By allowing this, we're no longer workers, we're hostages. Corporations have been allowed to get far too much power in this country, and there's no good way out anymore.
Yeah...tell a corporation: if you earn $10M you'll pay 15% whereas if you earn $5M you'll pay 10%, guess which amount they'd rather earn...it's not the lower amount.
Only the people who buy the whole, "if you earn too much, you take home less" believe this nonsense.
The people who spout this nonsense are either economically illiterate or malicious liars.
So, the question is, is PP economically illiterate or a malicious liar?
If he's economically illiterate, then should we be trusting an economically illiterate individual to run the country? We did with Trudeau, how's that working out?
If he's a malicious liar, then why would you trust a malicious liar?
Please for the sake of God don't kill this capital gain tax hike. We need to dissuade investors from putting all there money in real estate.
The cons are just as lost as the liberals.
The only real arguments to be made are doctors are being fucked over and startups are less likely to be started in Canada as this just adds oil to an already burning problem.
Doctors are by no means poor but they’re not exactly rich either, at least if you’re a newly graduated one after 12 years of school. This would simply encourage them to move to the U.S. after graduating for a more financially rewarding future. The Canadian healthcare system is already strained, so further straining it is.
Startups already face an uphill battle in Canada. Lack of funding and extra red tape. More reasons to start in the U.S.
Small medium businesses will pay the taxes, along with probably very few actual rich people. Actual rich people don’t pay taxes. They have good lawyers and accountants.
Doesn't make much sense. Someone used tradesman example but we built houses for years and rarely were even close to getting hit by it, small business owner 20 of those years. It affects doctors more than anything
I just saw an interview with this guy and that kind of famous YouTuber j j mcollough and Pierre unironically labels himself as a champion of Canadian workers 🤣
Just goes to show how PP will actually govern. Tax cuts for the rich and gutting social programs for everyone else. Any working class person who think PP is going to make their life better is delusional.
Oh fuck off, Pierre. The average Joe stopped believing in trickle-down economics years ago. It's never worked and never will because it was not designed to "create jobs for the middle class."
Yeah, plenty of us hate Trudeau but this is your election to lose. Crucial distinction, asshole.
No wealthy person is fronting their $250k a year capital gains to start up a company. This is just stupid.
Wealthy people use others money to start companies.
Here we go trickle down economic methodology. The cornerstone of Conservative financial policy. Taxing the rich hurts jobs!! Tax them less and it creates jobS!!!! Unreal that people still fall for this.
"If the rich can't get richer it's... \*checks notes\*.... bad for jobs"
PP is gonna be a huge grifter and he's being very upfront about who he works for. A lot of these hourly wage rent paying PP who have kids are gonna be totally boned when he kills off the CCB and replaces it with a hockey mom tax credit.
The inclusion rate of 250k is too low for its intended purpose. Increase it to at least 500k
What it really does is increase capital gains on second properties, like some cottages or condos owned by the middle class.
He's just pissed because he's going to have to pay out when he divests his condos and crypto like the rest of us instead of getting it basically free because he's selling through Panamanian companies.
Strange that he waited for John Ivison to write something 2 1/2 weeks ago about this before he said anything.
There is no party in Canada who has been so ardent a defender of the rich as the Conservatives. Harper gave them money taken from the poor and working class, its their defining trait people vote on.
The Liberals and the NDP are going to frame this as "The Conservatives want to help the rich"
But if you read between the lines here this is a broad-brush stroke that will frame sole-proprietor tradesman as "elites". Especially when they're retiring and trying to sell their business. I'd be more down for higher taxes on the higher income brackets - or maybe making exceptions for certain situations like doctors, tradespeople or maybe making the capital gains increases on higher values .
I am all for taxing the rich but the $1500-a-plate fundraiser Liberals are getting this wrong and will continue to the smug about this.
Also fuck the Conservatives too.
I mean, the sole proprietor tradesman still gets $1.25MM of gains tax-free and another $250k at the old inclusion rate when selling a business. And if they get anything more than the absolute minimum of tax advice, they'll often get more, unless they're single with no kids.
It still hits them, but not until they've made off with a pretty good haul.
Exactly. People need to get out of here with this “poor tradesman” bullshit. 99% of tradesmen don’t need to worry about capital gains tax inclusion above 250k. The 1% that do are the ones employing the 99%. The 99% of workers get 100% of their income taxed. It’s bullshit that capital gains had 50% inclusion to begin with. Income is income.
People generally guy the assets of a company and not the shares, so that provision won't apply. When you buy the shares you are assuming any liabilities. When you buy the assets you are buying the specific revenue generating pieces with less risk.
I'm not convinced why these tradespeople should be entitled to a tax break that other wage earners aren't entitled to receive. Anyone else who is earning an income has to pay their taxes at a 100% inclusion rate. I've seen some commenters say it's because doctors etc. don't get a pension/retirement fund. However, that's the case for many workers who also have to save for their retirement, without help from their employer.
>. I'd be more down for higher taxes on the higher income brackets -
Which brackets would you increase and by how much? Why?
I'm for lower taxes.
Here we are arguing about this tax increase and no one is asking why we need to increase taxes in the first place.
What the fuck exactly are we getting for the +151B per year Trudeau now spends?
Literally nobody in the tax law / tax policy world thinks this is a bad idea and we are all going to personally suffer more taxes and less business because less advantageous tax solutions.
It’s more tax. Ya. That sucks. But is it a bad policy?
No, not really it’s pretty darn fair to be honest.
Where do you work? This so the first question I have for the thread. I am not promoting the tax changes but the nuance it’s important to acknowledge the market mix of jobs impacted by such changes.
F*ck Trudeau crowd must be loving this. Especially the part when the vast majority are seceding more wealth to the rich and screwing themselves and their kids in the future. A guy that became a politician at 22 doesn't give a f*ck about anyone and to think otherwise is intense delusion.
Conservatives. Conserving their rich cronies funds using your tax paying dollars.
I wish the House of Commons would sink into the Earth with all of our parties inside one day.
All those jobs selling investment condos..
I mean this is coming from the guy who thinks a struggling waitress makes $60k a year
It's funny because jobs are already killed so unsure how a tax hike would make it worse. If anything it will push business owners to reinvest profits within there business.
You mean doctors, right?
These millionaires don’t create jobs they just want us all to think they do. It’s a well orchestrated lie We need them to pay their taxes like the rest of us slubs Asking to pay a slightly higher tax rate to make them on par with nurses isn’t something that bothers me in the least.
My main issue is the term they always use are “jobs” Maybe Im just being pedantic, but I dont care about more jobs being created, I want more solid careers to be created. “Jobs” are usually dead end and shitty. Careers usually have upward mobility and, well, are still usually shitty sadly
It's the same trickle down economics bullshit. It's like they think we're so stupid that greedy execs that loooove money are going to actually try to trickle that money down to us.
And we have 40 years of proof, since Reagan/Thatcher, that trickle-down economics was bs from the start.
But people still believe it.
Yes, it's sad.
It's stupid, it's also not affecting those hiring people to any degree that it would negate jobs. This is complaining for the sake of complaining.
Best way is to crank up the corporate tax rates. Capital gains is chump change compared to corporate tax increases, corporate tax is unavoidable. If this bill passes, they just won't sell. They'll borrow against it.
That's why it's capital gains, they are already borrowing against their capital.,
Same lines from back in the 90s. Sad part is people just eat that garbage up.
Somehow we managed to have jobs in the 70’s when the corporate tax rate was like 40% higher
And they owned way less of the media.... hrrrrmmmmm...........
munch* munch* munch*
*Jobs which are dead can never die.*
And there it is. The CPC spewing tricke-down bullshit in order to support tax cuts for the wealthy. Anyone that thinks PP and his CPC are going to lift one finger for the working class is living in a dream land.
Won't someone think of the rich? Trickle down will some day come true, even if decades of research show it it false. And Poilievre using the Republican job creators talking point is a poor choice, in my opinion. No one believes the rich make jobs just because they want to anymore. They make them as low paying as possible and that is the reason we are flooded with TFWs, PR seekers and Immigrants. The rich need constant flow of desperate people willing to keep wages down.
The wealthy have the money to sponsor his campaign, so PP needs to keep the donors happy
I will somewhat agree with that sentiment on job creation. Our culture and economy does not promote investment into new businesses. Instead we see alot of investment in real estate. It works for America because they are innovators and lead a lot of the health care and tech innovations. Their system is built to incentivize that. Of course there are cons to their system like wealth disparity. We do need an environment where businesses can thrive because that’s when people thrive, but we have a culture of being unproductive. Businesses should be incentivized to grow their business instead of their real estate portfolio. I’m not a fan of the increased capital gains tax because of the effects of skilled professionals leaving, and knowing that the government probably wouldn’t even put it to good use. They pay themselves more than enough to run this country to the ground. Perhaps they will pay themselves more, or hire another consultancy to tell them what to do.
Again, as a point of clarity on the on-going chatter surrounding Canadian productivity. The Canadian economy does not have a productivity problem relative to America. Here is the study which highlights why the Canadian economy shows a lagging total factor productivity number relative to America. Oil. The oil sands opened up in 2001, which directly coincides with our lagging productivity - because capital input into oil extraction in Canada rose from a historical 5-8%, to 35%, for the same outputs of ~5%. When you exclude oil from data and compare it to America with oil excluded as well, our total factor productivity growth has matched and mirrored the growth seen in America over the last 20 years. Their oil is less costly to extract (think ocean extract in the gulf and fracking) and thus doesn’t drag down their productivity like our expensive oil sands do here in Canada. Additionally our economy is smaller so the drag exposed by the oil sector is more prominent. TLDR: excluding the oil sector, Canadas productivity matches Americas in a number of core sectors. Canadian oil is more capital intensive to extract, and is exclusively responsible for the total productivity stagnation we’ve seen over the last 20 years. Section 4, 5 and 6 cover this extensively. https://productivitypartnership.ca/sites/default/files/documents/candianproductivity-loertscherpujolas-5aug2023.pdf
Skilled professionals have been leaving for over a decade and capital gains was never the reason. The wages here are no where close to the US full stop, there will never be a culture of innovation so long as that is true. Defending trickle down economics isn't going to fix anything, the people in power want lower wages because they don't care about innovation, they only want to squeeze profits. It should also be noted the US and other places are eyeing the same increases, low capital gains is causing weird loopholes where destroying businesses is making PE money
Why do you think the wages are lower? If there was more investment, to create more companies, and create more competition for talent, wouldn’t that drive wages? Also not to mention a lot of people in tech receive significant comp from stock. Hmm now what causes that to go up?! Investment!
A glut of workers racing to the bottom, when amazon was looking for a new HQ the feds pitch was that we have cheap wages and they will work to keep them cheap. I wish we got enough stock for these capital gains changes to matter but we don't, that would require having the bargaining power tech workers in the states have
Increase capital gains tax incentives business productivity. If it makes more sense to just have your corp hold equities or something, then you'll do that instead of capital investments in equipment or staffing.
Oh yeah, it’ll trickle down any day now
Trickle down all nice and yellow from our capitalists all over our faces for us to enjoy, just like they promised our parents and their parents before them.
Capital gains tax framed as job killing? Man cons think their** base is stupid AF.
> Man cons think there base is stupid AF. they are though, so many people arguing this is a terrible idea
Petit Pierre has never had a job. Not once, not ever was he employed or working in anything other than political parties. He has no idea how anything works.
I am sure there is a lot of complexity to all of this but years and years ago I dated a girl with a wealthy father that ran several companies. Under the Harper regime there was a big thing to "grow businesses" by cutting corporate taxes from 22 to 15% I was a dumb recent uni graduate goober chatting to him one night at dinner about business stuff. I didn't understand any big picture things so I was poking and prodding because the tax cut had been in the news cycle. I at one point asked if he was going to hire more people or open a new shop for his business with the tax cut. Guy took a sip of his wine and said "fuck no, I am going to buy a bigger boat" and started gleefully laughing. He did indeed buy himself a significantly larger boat about a year later There are some businesses that may benefit from such tax cuts that are struggling to get by but there are an equal or greater amount of individuals that get really rich off this shit.
This guy obviously didn’t understand tax integration in Canada. He didn’t save any tax overall when he removed the money from the corp to buy the boat, even with a lower corporate rate.
That's why made up anecdotes on Reddit aren't worth a whole lot... Certainly less than that boat 😛
Ya this anecdote was so forced
Nope but he likely used a ‘pipeline transaction’ to extract the funds at capital gains rate of say 25% vs non-eligible dividend rate of say 45% effectively stealing 20% from Canadian taxpayers on those very integration rules you are talking about. The 2/3 capital gains inclusion rate helps to shut down some of this tax loophole but only over eligible vs capital gains rate. But even if you can lower that spread to just 10% on the non-eligible it is still less tempting with AMT and all the legal costs to assemble the loophole.
Yeah for sure! And that was all triggered by the corporate tax cut right? Of course it wasn’t. Because it’s a made up story.
Bold of you to assume this guy didn't just buy it with corporate cash and fail to report the shareholder benefit
Perhaps, but pretty hard justify a boat as a business expense 99.9% of the time. CRA is good finding big items like this.
They definitely catch these when they do the audit, but that's only relevant when they do an audit. I'm shocked how many people I run into that have personal-use property inside a corporation, and how laissez-faire their accountants are about it.
Their accountants tell them too. Nobody police’s the accountants. CPA orgs don’t check the quality of your work. They only check that you are check marking the right parts of your independence checklist everyone has the same one of.
I'll take things that never happened for 500 Alex.
This is a bit of a Canada issue. In the US, we do see a lot of businesses reinvesting into their business because they know the outcome would be exponential if it pans out. Our startups are always behind the US market, and we cannot compete with the funding and investment they get. It’s a shame but Canada has a weird culture, it’s like we are doing capitalism wrong.
> Our startups are always behind the US market Honestly, the more exposure I get with startups the more I tend to think the US military/police plays an outsized role in this phenomena. There is just a truly stupid amount of money available to US based startups that can demonstrate even a tangential military benefit.
That is essentially how silicone valley started up. Decades of defence spending on projects to defeat the Soviets. By the 70s, it was hard to create foreign competition to such an established sector with high education and intel/hp/ibm right next door.
Dem boys in uniform like a good set of bolt on titays. (Sorry, silicon/silicone mixups always make me laugh)
Yes there is a lot of money that doesn’t create much, but there are also unicorns especially in tech. The great thing is that there are rich venture capitalists willing to invest in the next big thing instead of hoarding their own wealth. Even if those startups fail, at least people are getting paid, taxes are paid, and wealth is being transferred in a meaningful way. I wasn’t referring to military as I don’t have much knowledge on that industry, but the funding for health care and tech in general does allow for some great innovations.
Capital gains for US corporations is 100% inclusion so this rate change to 2/3 inclusion still put Canadian corp at an advantage to the US. How many people have a $250k gain on their personal tax return. I do hundreds every year and I rarely see it. Maybe on a deceased person’s return or an extremely rich taxpayer.
Higher taxes absolutely encourage investment within a corporation in order to reduce tax liabilities. This is probably why when corporate taxes were slashed (happened starting in the 80s and through the 90s) we also see companies investing less in workers. There is a reason that the 50s were such a prosperous time. The corporate tax rates and top personal marginal rates were very high. This was also when many social programs were being introduced (rather than slashed as they have been since the 80s going on to today) so the tax money that was collected was being invested back into society and actual people. As this has been dismantled (as I said, starting in the 80s), we have seen increasing social inequality and problems as the cumulative effect adds up and starts to become evident. It is unsurprising.
The 50s were prosperous bc the rest of the world was destroyed during WW2 and in the process of rebuilding and everyone was using US firms bc the mainland was spared from the disastrous consequences of the war. The US had all factories intact and humming snd able to transition to manufacturing non-military goods.
Well said
Yes and banks are incredibly shy to invest in anything that isn't real estate
Banks don’t invest is startups in the US either. No hard assets to lend against. You need venture capital.
Our risk capital would rather invest in resource extraction. No one has come up with a good way to change that bias, even though we have the universities and tech talent to make it happen. VC is always the missing piece.
Yup it is concerning but makes sense for the banks to consider real estate less risky! Real estate is our bread and butter. If we look at the richest people in Canada , there’s a theme in real estate and land development. Even the people who made their money in something like tech, start investing in real estate after to build their wealth.
Bullshit trickle down doesn't work in the States either it has never worked anywhere.
Then he twirled his moustache and lit a cigar with a hundred dollar bill, while reclining on his chair made of children. Their cries only made him laugh harder. That man’s name: Albert Einstein
Isn't buying a bigger boat still job creation? People need to create and take care of this boat now.
Riiight. Sure that happened.
/r/ThatHappened
i'm sure this happened. surprised you didn't describe him pot-bellied, wearing a suit and a top hat, and that you didn't include him lighting a cuban cigar with a hundred dollar bill. that would have really tied your creative writing essay together.
Nah he was a pretty chill guy but he has all his long term contracts lined up, companies running efficiently and he was mega loaded. There was no need or desire to expand or hire or grow so everything was just money in his pocket
That boat added more to the economy than giving it to the government.
lol
Somebody built that boat, right? Somebody maintains that boat. Somebody sells the fuel. What's more, the government taxes the boat, the fuel, the guy who imports the boat's salary if it's not locally made, his insurance guys' salary and the salary of the guy who makes sandwiches for the boat salesman's insurance guy. The economy is not a straight stripe.
Trickle-down economics is a job killer. Give money to the rich to automate factorys and jobs and keep the profits.
Hang on, they might not choose the infinitely deep glass this time (they won't)
People shouldn’t take advice about the economy from someone who misspells “factories.”
Someone made a typo on social media, clearly that means they have no idea what they are talking about. Here's a tip, everyone makes typos. If it's an important doc, people pay attention and fix it. If it is reddit, they generally don't care.
>if it is Reddit, they generally don't care What? Reddit is THEE number one place where people correct spelling and grammer. You could make a post about how you're missing your dead mom alot and someone will be like "Ackutually it's a lot, Alot is a town in India but I'm sure you already knew that🤓"
No party is going to change how we do things, so my opinion means nothing . We will keep doing nothing and keep playing the political blame game. So enjoy those high food prices , gas prices , home prices, and poor services. Well, corporations make record profits . Yep, I spelled a word wrong, and your only contribution is pointing that out...says more about you as a person than me.
You're right, the egregious thing isn't the fact that you misspelled a common word. It's that you write and seem to think in facile cliches and slogans. There are a number of these that keep showing up on reddit. "Trickle down economics doesn't work" is a popular one, because it's easy to understand, stokes the fires of class warfare, and is repeated so often it has the power of consensus behind it. I challenge you: can you even describe what trickle down economics means (it doesn't mean "don't tax the rich"); can you tell someone how and when it was disproven, and by whom; can you describe parallels between Reagan's America (apparently erroneously touted as the trickle down economics era) and Canada today - or really any economy today; can you think about these things in terms beyond reddit platitudes like "the rich want to divide us," "corporations are evil," or "just let in fewer immigrants"? I mean this. If you're a real person and not a bot, really think about it. If you just reword things you've read on reddit because that makes sense to you, that's certainly _a_ way of thinking, but it's not a way of thinking that'll help you out. Peace.
That's a lot of words to say i am right. We have had 40 years of the economic policy of trickle-down economics that was introduced in the 80s More wealth now sits at the top with corporations and the rich than the bottom 99% . Tax breaks , corporate welfare , subsides.. corprate taxs are lower tyrn any time in history, allowing corporations to automate production or use auto mated tellers .. cutting costs and making more profits. Profits being given to shareholders... not a dime is going to lower costs for consumers , wages remain low and stagnet, But you keep pretending the system we currently have is working is helping the average person. Sorry if the slogans are catchy, but it's true.
Lol no you’re not right. You’re just reciting things you’ve read on this site and didn’t address anything I asked you to think about. You’d have been an apparatchik in another time, but really that’s just saying you are lost and angry, with a dollop of self righteous. I hope things turn a leaf for you soon, so you can get away from these destructive and reductionist ideas you’re parroting. Good luck bro. Life gets better as soon as you log off.
You keep simping for the rich and corporations .. you can get another pizza party a year . Also, grown-ups don't call each other, bro.
Haha absolutely. Comment of the day. Most people on Reddit do not understand global economics and how important it is to compete on a macro scale.
Lmao gotta love Canadian conservatives. Still trying trickle down economics like the American conservatives haven't been trying it for 50+ years. Why does it feel like we're always doing shit from 10 to 20 years ago
Anything that inconveniences millionaires and billionaires is a job killer trickle trickle stop
What kind of jobs does free cash for people who are already rich make? Enough bullshit PP. The people who pay the tax won’t even spend the money in Canada, they’ll buy a boat in Florida. Suck eggs lying PP.
> they’ll buy a boat in Florida. because of the new boat tax
The capital gains inclusion rate was dropped from 75% to 50% in 2000 by Chretien. History has shown that Increasing the capital gains rate (or taxing assets) is counterproductive to economic growth, but unfortunately, the current version of the LPC is either too stupid or too corrupt to care. Based on the past nine year performance of the LPC, there is no reason to believe that tax increases will result in any tangible benefit to tax-payers.
This sub is confusing. When Trudeau mentioned the tax everyone was up in arms. Not that PP says he doesn’t want it everyone is for the tax.
I dislike the right wing social Conservatives a lot, but love it when the “party of the working class people” makes decisions that hurt 90% of households yet benefit my household. Somehow dental care, childcare and pharmacare is evil and communist but not taxing capital gains is good… I wonder how many supporters of this party will ever have capital gains to tax since primary residency is exempt?
Poilievre's full of shit. Again.
Businesses hire if it makes economic sense to do so, not because they have spare cash lying around and want to enrich their communities.
Every major company is trying to use students that they can pay less and looking to ai to take jobs away
Trickle down doesn't work, this is proven.
Of course they’re against it LOL. Why would the party of the bourgeoisie support it?
If you look at the people in the liberal party a lot of their background is pretty bourgeoisie. Pierre actually has a more normal background. All parties do have corrupt people that line their own pockets.
>If you look at the people in the liberal party a lot of their background is pretty bourgeoisie. Pierre actually has a more normal background. His parents do not him, his first job was literally to be one of the the attack dog of the prime minister of Canada.
>If you look at the people in the liberal party a lot of their background is pretty bourgeoisie. Pierre actually has a more normal background. Yeah I know. Given the history of Conservatism, I’m not the least bit shocked they’re against it. That’s all.
lol! Pee Pee is a lifetime politician who never has had a job outside of politics. wtf are you on boy!?
His background of coming from a normal family. The fact that he pursued politics and did not come from an affluent family is a big deal. A lot of people from normal or poor backgrounds that pursue politics realize that it’s extremely difficult to be politician when you’re not well connected. It’s sad because it would be great if we had various perspectives, but it just doesn’t make sense financially for most people. Usually these politicians grew up with some privilege and exposure to other politicians really early on, so they could build those connections. Im also not male LOL
Pierre joined the party very young and got his job through insider party connections. He dropped out of college to work with the party as a political consultant. He later went back and finished his degree after he was elected. I would also pay attention to who he surrounds himself with. Cause those corporate donors also like hanging around the conservatives.
Not only was he raised by an upper middle class family in Alberta (2 teachers in the 80's when that profession was still respected and properly funded), he was also very involved in politics well before he was of age to even vote. He was making connections at 14 yrs old. Your assumption that he was a poor kid with no political ties is completely false. He was well connected before he even went off to college and had a well educated family who provided him a lot more opportunity than most people get. I don't like PP at all personally but I also would never underestimate how much influence he has had for a very long career that started well before most people think. He's cunning, smart and driven... That's a terrifying combination for a world leader.
Background is a much worse indicator of policy than the guy’s actual policy choices.
PP is a dweeb
Which jobs would it kill? I always find how these things are framed very interesting. "They want to raise taxes" Taxes on whom? Whose taxes are they raising? The workers at a company, or their regional managers? I assume the talking point will be "if you raise taxes, they'll look for ways to cut expenses, which means layoffs" an interesting proposition if you assume a company's entire reason for existing is to generate profits and cut expenses. Shareholders want returns on their investments. If there aren't more customers purchasing the product, how does a company--whose goal is to generate profit going to do that? Well we've seen it, they'll fire staff anyway. If you're someone who got laid off, and you vote for someone who wants the people who laid you off to be taxed *less*, how is that in your interest? How does it help you to know your boss is getting a bigger paycheck and keeping more of their income?
>I assume the talking point will be "if you raise taxes, they'll look for ways to cut expenses, which means layoffs" This is a big part of the issue. By allowing this, we're no longer workers, we're hostages. Corporations have been allowed to get far too much power in this country, and there's no good way out anymore.
Yeah...tell a corporation: if you earn $10M you'll pay 15% whereas if you earn $5M you'll pay 10%, guess which amount they'd rather earn...it's not the lower amount. Only the people who buy the whole, "if you earn too much, you take home less" believe this nonsense. The people who spout this nonsense are either economically illiterate or malicious liars. So, the question is, is PP economically illiterate or a malicious liar? If he's economically illiterate, then should we be trusting an economically illiterate individual to run the country? We did with Trudeau, how's that working out? If he's a malicious liar, then why would you trust a malicious liar?
Just don't have passive income above $250k a year or you pay a little more.... Jeeze, that'll be so hard for 99.99% of Canadians.
first dollar mate for corps. my goodness you people are stupid
Defending the 1% while pretending he is for the common citizen. He really is just another Trudeau.
omg, Skippy's been doomscrolling Truth Social.
Please for the sake of God don't kill this capital gain tax hike. We need to dissuade investors from putting all there money in real estate. The cons are just as lost as the liberals.
Variation on the virtues of trickle-down economics.
Who cares. CUT IMMIGRATION
The only real arguments to be made are doctors are being fucked over and startups are less likely to be started in Canada as this just adds oil to an already burning problem. Doctors are by no means poor but they’re not exactly rich either, at least if you’re a newly graduated one after 12 years of school. This would simply encourage them to move to the U.S. after graduating for a more financially rewarding future. The Canadian healthcare system is already strained, so further straining it is. Startups already face an uphill battle in Canada. Lack of funding and extra red tape. More reasons to start in the U.S. Small medium businesses will pay the taxes, along with probably very few actual rich people. Actual rich people don’t pay taxes. They have good lawyers and accountants.
Doesn't make much sense. Someone used tradesman example but we built houses for years and rarely were even close to getting hit by it, small business owner 20 of those years. It affects doctors more than anything
It's a upper middle class hit that does nothing to the upper class Canadians who don't sell their assets.
Trickle down and no clear stance on immigration… JT has to go but it’s increasingly looking like it will be more of the same from PP
I just saw an interview with this guy and that kind of famous YouTuber j j mcollough and Pierre unironically labels himself as a champion of Canadian workers 🤣
Which is ironic considering he's never had a non-political job other than delivering papers as a kid. He has no idea what it is to actually work.
Just goes to show how PP will actually govern. Tax cuts for the rich and gutting social programs for everyone else. Any working class person who think PP is going to make their life better is delusional.
People think Trudeau is clueless They really haven't given any attention to the words Peepee spouts
Oh fuck off, Pierre. The average Joe stopped believing in trickle-down economics years ago. It's never worked and never will because it was not designed to "create jobs for the middle class." Yeah, plenty of us hate Trudeau but this is your election to lose. Crucial distinction, asshole.
No wealthy person is fronting their $250k a year capital gains to start up a company. This is just stupid. Wealthy people use others money to start companies.
Conservative continue to show they don't care about the cost of living crisis.
So he still believes in trickle down economics. Huge red flag.
Feels like it kills his job if he can’t get them “donations” from the rich and help them keep their money
PP is on the trickle down train and can’t get off.
Here we go trickle down economic methodology. The cornerstone of Conservative financial policy. Taxing the rich hurts jobs!! Tax them less and it creates jobS!!!! Unreal that people still fall for this.
Yep, his government is going g to be a disaster
Ah yes the old trickle down economics argument.
"If the rich can't get richer it's... \*checks notes\*.... bad for jobs" PP is gonna be a huge grifter and he's being very upfront about who he works for. A lot of these hourly wage rent paying PP who have kids are gonna be totally boned when he kills off the CCB and replaces it with a hockey mom tax credit.
PP shows everyone his true colors. He is a multi property owner likely impacted by this. He is a mouth piece for the ultra wealthy.
Class war incoming
Havn't all big companies been shorting jobs already in every field because they have no unions and are making record profits already?
The inclusion rate of 250k is too low for its intended purpose. Increase it to at least 500k What it really does is increase capital gains on second properties, like some cottages or condos owned by the middle class.
If only they could just target the Landhoards directly...
As part of the 95% of Canadians who will never be impacted by this personally, I’m in favour of the capital gains taxation changes.
Anything the Liberals do is a job killer, look at their track record. They keep doubling down on stupidity.
Yup all those people that are making $250k or more in profits will stop investing their money to save the tax lol. Come on PP, really?
All those investors are technically “self-employed”?
This little weasel PP, is eager to hammer the final nails in the coffin.
Job killer? The accountants will have more work.
Trickle down economics are bullshit.
Polievre once again showing he's a lapdog for the capitalist class.
Ah yes, I'm very scared I will lose my job that is funded by *checks notes* my boss selling property to his children at an obscene profit.
It’s clear Nazi Milhouse does not have average Canadians interests at heart
They missed an opportunity to brand this capital gains tax as what it really is, a reduction in tax exemptions for the wealthy.
He's just pissed because he's going to have to pay out when he divests his condos and crypto like the rest of us instead of getting it basically free because he's selling through Panamanian companies. Strange that he waited for John Ivison to write something 2 1/2 weeks ago about this before he said anything.
Every time a rich person complains about this, the better I feel about it.
There is no party in Canada who has been so ardent a defender of the rich as the Conservatives. Harper gave them money taken from the poor and working class, its their defining trait people vote on.
The Liberals and the NDP are going to frame this as "The Conservatives want to help the rich" But if you read between the lines here this is a broad-brush stroke that will frame sole-proprietor tradesman as "elites". Especially when they're retiring and trying to sell their business. I'd be more down for higher taxes on the higher income brackets - or maybe making exceptions for certain situations like doctors, tradespeople or maybe making the capital gains increases on higher values . I am all for taxing the rich but the $1500-a-plate fundraiser Liberals are getting this wrong and will continue to the smug about this. Also fuck the Conservatives too.
I mean, the sole proprietor tradesman still gets $1.25MM of gains tax-free and another $250k at the old inclusion rate when selling a business. And if they get anything more than the absolute minimum of tax advice, they'll often get more, unless they're single with no kids. It still hits them, but not until they've made off with a pretty good haul.
Exactly. People need to get out of here with this “poor tradesman” bullshit. 99% of tradesmen don’t need to worry about capital gains tax inclusion above 250k. The 1% that do are the ones employing the 99%. The 99% of workers get 100% of their income taxed. It’s bullshit that capital gains had 50% inclusion to begin with. Income is income.
People generally guy the assets of a company and not the shares, so that provision won't apply. When you buy the shares you are assuming any liabilities. When you buy the assets you are buying the specific revenue generating pieces with less risk.
I'm not convinced why these tradespeople should be entitled to a tax break that other wage earners aren't entitled to receive. Anyone else who is earning an income has to pay their taxes at a 100% inclusion rate. I've seen some commenters say it's because doctors etc. don't get a pension/retirement fund. However, that's the case for many workers who also have to save for their retirement, without help from their employer.
If that sole proprietor is getting $2mils out of selling his business then in what world is he poor?
>. I'd be more down for higher taxes on the higher income brackets - Which brackets would you increase and by how much? Why? I'm for lower taxes. Here we are arguing about this tax increase and no one is asking why we need to increase taxes in the first place. What the fuck exactly are we getting for the +151B per year Trudeau now spends?
Literally nobody in the tax law / tax policy world thinks this is a bad idea and we are all going to personally suffer more taxes and less business because less advantageous tax solutions. It’s more tax. Ya. That sucks. But is it a bad policy? No, not really it’s pretty darn fair to be honest.
Someone finally standing up for the wealthy. What a guy!
A job killer has less of a ring to it after we’ve seen our jobs so heavily devalued over the past few years.
Where do you work? This so the first question I have for the thread. I am not promoting the tax changes but the nuance it’s important to acknowledge the market mix of jobs impacted by such changes.
True conservative helping the rich get richer.
peepee is a job killer
Oh yes, the ol' trickle down economics.
Such a rare gem, an actual reason to vote Liberal.
Who do you think you're kidding? - You were always voting LPC.
Lol what????
F*ck Trudeau crowd must be loving this. Especially the part when the vast majority are seceding more wealth to the rich and screwing themselves and their kids in the future. A guy that became a politician at 22 doesn't give a f*ck about anyone and to think otherwise is intense delusion.
Conservatives. Conserving their rich cronies funds using your tax paying dollars. I wish the House of Commons would sink into the Earth with all of our parties inside one day.
This is a great video about how bs is trickle down economics https://youtu.be/xZlxOvHwcq0?si=O4zfAYQU_VR9pD0t