It’s important to remember that the international student system was just a loophole to citizenship that’s now gotten a bit more difficult to jump through. We have to see the growth in temporary permits overall over the next few quarters to see if people have transitioned to another loophole like the LMIA route.
Most of these “students” are not real students, and many will do whatever it takes to land here and gain some sort of status. Once the door is open, it’s very hard to close, just ask the U.K, Australia, etc.
I mean look what’s happening in PEI. They’re protesting to *work at Tim Hortons*. I hope PEI doesnt back down and their permits expire. Time to get the frauds outta here and start cleaning up this mess
Just make sure no health insurance, no benefits, no pensions, no drivers licenses, no identification, no rights. Work on the cotton farm for their landlords.
Certainly no voting and protesting rights.
I sat on a flight from Thailand a few months ago next to a Indian and his friend the seat up. 16 hour flight. Could barely understand English but taking Hospitality management somewhere in Surrey. Both of them.
My mom works at a trades university and she said they removed the English language equivalency tests for their courses. I don’t know why people would study at a school that teaches in a language they can’t understand. Well I know why. But I don’t know why we let them. Many of them cheat and many of them only show up to enough classes and do enough work to get a passible grade. And the teachers just fold if they don’t pass them. So we are inviting people who pay to barely pass their courses who can’t and don’t need to learn English, to fill jobs in low demand sectors
At a previous job, I switched positions, and a certain guy Indian joined the team. There were already two Indian guys on the team and they were competent but this new guy, could barely speak English, and his technical skills were almost non-existent. We kept wondering how he passed the interview if he could barely speak or understand English. He was let go, but I kept wondering how he passed the interview. It turns out the guy had had someone else do the interview. "He" asked for quite a bit of time before joining company like 3 months. So by the time he joined, the manager didn't quite remember the face of the person he interviewed.
Essentially, the person who was interviewed was different from the one who joined the company.
This is very common and happening in India as well. We have had to fire fake employees and amend policies in India to add additional interview rounds and a face to face interview. Makes it harder for the genuinely talented folks.
If we fingerprinted all applicants, and verified their identity at every step (english proficiency test, immigration interview, final exams for courses) we could cut the fraud to zero with not very much cost.
This. It's pretty telling when one of the protest's organizers brought up owning at least one property already.
Possibly, not the best way to garner sympathy during a housing crisis for those not in the laundry business.
Until, yknow, it becomes literally impossible to get a job while they fight and scramble amongst 20 trillion other competitors from the same situation as them. Jobs will always be the limiting factor.
shit at least hotel management has a clearly defined job that can provide immediate and direct value. The one main offending college which I forget the name to has "e-sport coordinator / event manager" as one of their programs.
Nobody is going to be forced to leave. Instead, the program will be severely restricted to newcomers, and everyone who is already here will get a path to a PR and citizenship. That's the only Canadian way.
I don't have a problem with people coming here to get a Canadian post-secondary education in our universities. They become valuable members of society, and mix with the rest of society and end up with a diploma whose value is directly comparable to that of Canadians who took the same courses.
What I see as an exploitation of the system is for a private unaccredited business like "Bob's Trucking School" being allowed to certify someone is a student and get them a visa. First, we have no gauge of the quality (or actuality) of such education, and second, the resulting "diploma" if real is meaningless anyway. Plus, what education are they offering that is not accredited but still takes more than a month or two? (How long do you need to train to drive a truck or frame a house?) If the business is primarily foreign students, if Canadian citizens do not see value in attending, then it is simply a shortcut and pretense for a student visa.
And there's also the allegation that such arrivals actually do not do any studies but simply work, with or without the collusion of the private business.
Yeah. For legitimate post-secondary education (not scam diploma mills) the presence of high-quality foreign students greatly enriches the experience, and the high tuition they pay subsidizes Canadian students.
But the system is clearly being abused by "students" who are using "education" as a way to immigrate and find work, and employers who are happy to exploit them to keep wages down.
The diploma mills and shit community colleges are a big part of the problem too, but even top universities have fallen in to the trap of charging foreign students outrageous tuition fees to make up for shortfalls in provincial funding. I lectured for a while at a top university, and I can say that some of my best students were from overseas... but I was also told that I simply couldn't fail some of my worst students, because if their grades dropped below a certain point they'd be removed from the program and sent home (and no longer pay tuition).
> Yeah. For legitimate post-secondary education (not scam diploma mills) the presence of high-quality foreign students greatly enriches the experience, and the high tuition they pay subsidizes Canadian students.
Yes, I was proud to see my old school, U of T, was right up there with MIT and Princeton and Stanford in trying to recruit young Sheldon Cooper. :D
>charging foreign students outrageous tuition fees to make up for shortfalls in provincial funding.
When I went to university in the 1970's the consensus was the government paid about 5/6 of the real cost of a Canadian university education. today it's somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3. The argument was why should foreigners be susbsidized and displace Canadians?
In the USA, where student loans are a flowing river of money, most of the colleges have figure this out and decided to dip into that river as much as they can, thus causing a spiral of increasing costs and increasing loans and increasing debt.
> When I went to university in the 1970's the consensus was the government paid about 5/6 of the real cost of a Canadian university education. today it's somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3. The argument was why should foreigners be susbsidized and displace Canadians?
Not sure how it worked in the 70s, but these days international students (and in some cases out-of-province students) pay far higher tutition fees than local students. Foreign students effectively subsidize domestic ones, that's a big part of the reason universities are keen to take so many. As government funding has dried up, money from foreign students has been used to plug the gaps.
What do you mean by “ask Australia”? AUS had zero immigration for 2 years and the labor market was beyond tight. It imported record number of immigrants in 2022, and then sized it down to meet the current needs, tightening the requirements. It’s an immigration system that works well for the country. The UK is basket case, they re-elected 4 times a conservative government who was on paper anti-immigrant only to triple the number of immigrants after Brexit so they could depress wages in healthcare, service, agriculture etc sectors. It has nothing to do with “ hard to close the tap”, the government intentionally increased the numbers of visas and created new routes for Indian professionals, healthcare workers etc. they still campaign on “anti immigrant” platform 😂
Nope. Have been hearing plenty of stories where folks are literally taking loans/selling land and moving to Australia and Canada to "Study" and then landing labor jobs in a year or so. Most of these folks have poor academic records, barely understand/speak english but apparently there are corrupt folks within the system that is making this easy.
I also know some really talented Indian engineers who were denied visas for both Australia and Canada which sucks as they would have really made a difference to their Employers.
Nothing wrong in principle for people to use international student program for citizenship. The problem is the people, the schools, and our government corrupted the system. It’s a good way to get new healthcare workers or other professionals we need but we allow people to study at these strip mall scam schools that teach nothing of value and let anyone in.
We don’t need more fast food workers. It’s so blatant, I wouldn’t be surprised if Trudeau was lobbied (bribed?) by big businesses who wanted cheap labour.
it’s no conspiracy theory- Here is the industry lobby group Restaurants Canada bragging about successfully lobbying the government for more TFWs and loosening restrictions on LIMAs (now valid for 36months instead of 18. 3 years for a “temporary” worker lmao what a joke)
https://www.restaurantscanada.org/big-win-for-the-food-service-industry/
> now valid for 36months
As part of the general tightening of immigration and temporary foreign workers, [LMIA validity has now been cut to six months](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/news/2024/03/government-of-canada-to-adjust-temporary-measures-under-the-temporary-foreign-worker-program-workforce-solutions-road-map.html).
Good! Still doesn’t change the fact that industry associations are lobbying for their bottom line at the detriment of everyone else. These places need to be called out and ostracized for putting greed before country.
I believe that’s for non-registered employers, if a company is on the registered program they can still get a 3-year LMIA (I don’t know if that program was suspended).
Now keep in mind an LMIA is not a work permit, so this means the employer less time to use it (not assuming you don’t know, I just noticed some people don’t). 6 months is still a long time.
>We don’t need more fast food workers. It’s so blatant, I wouldn’t be surprised if Trudeau was lobbied (bribed?) by big businesses who wanted cheap labour.
Given we're transitioning to a "post-work" economy, the most surplus unskilled labour we allow in the more of an expensive problem it will increasingly be (even beyond the impact on the housing supply).
Canada's ruling class, however, seem to want neo-feudalism (and perhaps chaos in the future).
The recent Bank of Canada rate cut announcement celebrated a lessening of (perpetually subpar) Canadian wages increasing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9TCXxZ3gRk&t=69s
It's also important to remember the Liberals made this a temporary cut - to last until after the next election. Then, if they are re-elected, it will likely go back up.
I believe it, I work as an internatioal student advisor, and the visa denials currently are breathtaking. We are seeing a 60% denial rate on our end. Of course different universities could be having different experiences, but if this is any indication, the govt is on track to slash numbers. Simultaneously interest in the USA has skyrocketed.
The US was always their main goal, but since Canada has always accepted everyone, it was much easier to get into Canada first and try for the US later.
Perhaps. I've worked for American schools, and the US embassy is pretty tough. Just to get an appointment for a US tourist visa (B visa) as a foreign national in Canada (who requires an interview), takes 854 days. Also F-1 visas always required much more in financial evidence. Canada has boosted is financial requirements making it harder for many student to come up with the fiduciary evidence to garner a visa. I think this is why we are seeing much more denials.
My boyfriend applied in September of last year and was scheduled for the following September but was able to get an earlier appointment and had his interview last month.
He also said he was one of the few non Indian people there to interview.
This is honestly not true ive worked with many international students from india and the US wasnt even an after thought for the majorIty of them… their satisfied just getting permanent residency in Canada
Different segment. For the true students, the ones that come from middle to upper class, US is their first choice. But they started to consider Canada for the last 10 years (recent trend) than Australia.
The ones that purely want PR will always do their research and pursue the easiest path. That path happened to be Canada (instead of US, Aus, NZ)
All indians that come to canada are at least upper middle class in India even the ones that go to diploma mills.. however rich for indian standards does not mean rich for Canadian standards… the ones that go to diploma mills probably have a household income of around $1500 a month in india which is considered rich in india
You're from Indonesia. You would probably understand the economy level of the true International Students that aspire to go to UofT, UBC, SFU. Definitely not from family where the parents income at $1500/month level.
The ones that cannot afford go to Malaysia/Aussie to take diploma (at least that used to be the case).
I have a friend that works for a private college. Almost no one is applying. He thinks that they'll close down in a few weeks if this continues. So yes, this reduction in foreign students is happening.
Interesting. Ya many of these small private colleges, especially in Ontario, were almost entirely made up of international students. I can't see them surviving. Which I guess is the point.
Closing down those shitty diploma mills will be a bonus.
The certificates and diplomas they issue aren't worth the paper they're written on. The only thing you need to graduate is a cheque in the right amount and to maybe show up once in a while.
For Sure. I think you should expect to see mass closures of these diploma mills over the next year or two, especially in Ontario. That's my prediction anyway.
Ya I suppose it's hard to prevent them from simply opening and running their business like any private school (as long as they are not doing anything illegal), so the government can really only hit them where their revenue stream lives, i.e. immigration and visas. Private schools that still focus on domestic students won't be affected by any of this, but like you said those are few.
Even if a big swath of us don’t like a sitting government, we should acknowledge when policy shifts in a better direction
The outrage generated in the public sphere is at least moving some needles.
In Ontario we know Ford and his Minister of Colleges and Universities is pissed about this (demonstrates how widespread these issues truly are)
> we should acknowledge when policy shifts in a better direction
Sure, you can recognize someone stopped punching you in the face - but don't forget they started punching you in the face in the first place.
You mean when people are punching you in the face
Ontarios Leading Conservative Party and premier were PISSED about the new caps and changes. Ford called it a “sledgehammer to the whole system” and said the province was “blindsided”
This issue spans parties
I mean - it’s well documented. Zero reason for any of us as individuals to spin our bias into the discussion because it’s fun to play team sports in politics. The rot runs deep.
“The Ford government has repeatedly accused Ottawa of dropping the cap on international students out of nowhere.
Minister of Colleges and Universities Jill Dunlop previously said a lack of consultation had caused “chaos” in the province and Premier Doug Ford said the Trudeau government had “taken a sledgehammer to the whole system” and “blindsided” him.”
“The move was decried by colleges and universities in the province, which say they have become increasingly reliant on international students to fund their operations.
A tuition fee cut and freeze introduced by the Ford government in 2019 has seen international tuition become a key part of the revenue drawn by post-secondary institutions.”
[https://globalnews.ca/news/10320935/immigration-minister-ontariosinternational-student-claims-garbage/](https://globalnews.ca/news/10320935/immigration-minister-ontariosinternational-student-claims-garbage/)
And:
Trudeau: “But the large part of it is in two categories: international students and temporary foreign workers. International students went from like 200,000 a year to 700,000 a year over the past few years.
DUBNER: Wow, why was that?
TRUDEAU: Because there was a real decision by universities, and particularly by the provinces who run the universities, to go out —
DUBNER: They’re cash customers, correct?
TRUDEAU: They are. We have tuition fees in Canada of between $5 and $10,000 a year for our top-notch universities, depending on the programs. But international students will pay $25, $30,000 because they don’t get the same level of subsidies that Canadian citizens will, which is totally natural. But universities suddenly started to realize that they could bring in lots more international students and make up for some of the funding shortfalls that every institution is facing.
DUBNER: And these are students coming primarily from China, and some India?
TRUDEAU: India, China, and a few other places. The problem is that that has then turned around and put a lot of pressure on local housing in university towns, which pretty much all our towns are. And it’s also decreased the quality of education and caused a rash of mental-health issues, including suicides in international students that we’ve seen over the past few years. So as a government, we decided that we were going to curtail the number of international students coming in, and get that under control so —
DUBNER: This is recent, right? These are new temporary caps.
TRUDEAU: This is recent, this is just over the past couple of months, so that we can respond to the housing pressures and the issues around that.
DUBNER: What do the universities say to you? Because all of a sudden their budgets look a little bit less healthy.
TRUDEAU: Yeah, they weren’t very happy. Nor were the provinces, in some cases. But for us, the provinces were maybe not stepping up on controlling things the way they should have, to prevented us from getting into this.
[https://freakonomics.com/podcast/a-social-activist-in-prime-ministers-clothing/](https://freakonomics.com/podcast/a-social-activist-in-prime-ministers-clothing/)
Which Ontarios provincial Conservative Party is actively mad about (international student reductions)
This problem spans parties
From Feb 22, 2024
“‘Very disappointed’: Ford government says international student cap will hurt economy, calls out Ottawa”
https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/very-disappointed-ford-government-says-international-student-cap-will-hurt-economy-calls-out-ottawa/article_311b1d2e-d0e3-11ee-8381-d3118598cacf.html
“ Speaking at an unrelated event on Friday in Brampton, Ford said the federal government “blindsided” the province with its announcement to cap the number of international students, a move he said was like taking “a sledgehammer to the system.”
When it comes to funding universities and colleges, Ontario is dead last. Ford has deliberately underfunded post-secondary education in Ontario for years, creating a situation where universities and colleges were forced to become over reliant on international tuition fees as a significant source of revenue.”
Among all provinces, Ontario is last in public funding per student at the post-secondary level. Institutions have been forced to increase their acceptance of international students to make up for the rapidly growing funding gap created by the Ford government.
I totally agree. The International student changes happening right now are seismic. Even previous governments have not made such drastic changes in such a short period of time.
If your student mix let’s say was west Africa 60% is low. If your student mix is India, 60% is high compared to previous years.
I wonder if the higher cash on hand requirement is just that much harder?
I agree, west Africa has always been a mixed bag. But I'm guessing the higher financial requirements are a big hurdle, but from what I have been hearing as well is that they are denying based on having family in Canada. If these students mention they have a brother or sister or cousin in Canada studying or living, they are being denied based on suspicion they don't plan on leaving after they complete their studies. Essentially not strong enough ties in their home country.
A step in the right direction! So how does it work? They apply for school and then Canada decides after if they are approved? Also where do you find the majority of applicants come from? I’m assuming almost all from India 🙄
I'm summarizing here, but Essentially international students apply for the university or college of their choice. If their application is rejected by the school, the process stops there. Of course some programs are harder to get into than others, and where the issues lied was in these diploma mills that had very low standards. Schools Like U of T or UBC etc were not the issue here. Once a student is admitted they need to file some paper work and get some documentation from the college or university, often make a deposit, which essentially shows financial capability end legitimacy. The students would then take this paper work (which has been signed off by the college or university), to the Canadian embassy where students need to have an in person interviews with an immigration officer. This can be half the battle itself, as often many Canadian embassies are booking interviews months or years out. The Interview is to screen students to make sure they are legitimate students, and have the financial means. They will review their paper work, financial history, current and past employment, family ties to Canada etc.
These interviews last only minutes and decisions are often made on the spot, and reasons for denial are generally vague, it cannot be appealed. Students can try interviewing again, but if they do not resolve the issue from the first denial, their chances of success are low.
If students are denied a visa, they often lose any deposit they made to the school in question.
Right now India and China are still big, but West Africa is very much on the rise and there are more and more students coming from this location. However with the new higher financials needed, and reduced student visas being issued, these demographics could change drastically.
Thanks for the response! Absolutely insane that we’re taking in so many people who are aiming to get PR from countries who are starkly different from Canada and entirely unskilled. Where are our Portuguese construction workers?! We need the houses 😭😭 Or med students?!
> and the visa denials currently are breathtaking. We are seeing a 60% denial rate on our end.
is it at a major uni? mostly undergrads or funded grad students too?
like i dont care for rejections for colleges and diplomas, but i wouldnt want to be denying phds at waterloo for example.
Yes a major University. A fully funded Grad or PhD student would have an easier time since financials would be covered more, but they can still be denied for other reasons.
Not in my experience, but I'm sure it varies by study and industry. The USA had harder entry requirements, but the difficulty in garnering a work permit and eventually a green card in the USA made Canada much more desirable, since Canada would offer PR not based on an employer sponsoring you (like in the USA). However if Canada moves to a more American model, it could see a shift towards the USA.
USA immigration is insane. Once you graduate from Canada, you get work permit. It’s pretty much guaranteed. Once you graduate in the USA, you have to get through lottery for a work visa that is filled with fraud. Essentially, there are 85k visas but around 200k-300k applicants. Feel free to calculate chances
Private Colleges (diploma mills) in Ontario will be restricted from student visas. There are 80 of them in places like Brampton which will be forced to shut down. It will only leave two public institutions (Algoma university , Sheridan College) left standing.
This is a huge impact in the GTA.
They’ve essentially moved to a one in, one out system . The number of visas they have for this year will be close to the number from 4 years ago - which of course will be lower than the record high from last year.
That said, the total number of students in the country will not change. It’s not a reduction, it is a cap that matches the all time record high.
The Federal NDP honestly baffles me with the direction they've taken under Singh.
They were a pro-labour party first and foremost under Layton, and to a less extent under Mulcair, but with Singh, they've basically switched over completely to a predominantly socially left focussed papaty.
At least the provincial NDP in BC under both Horgan and Eby have both done a far better job of balancing their priorities and have held firm on supporting pro-labour policy, even if those policies might not be the most socially left leaning. Biggest example is their stance on old growth logging.
He's not perfect for sure, but I appreciate that he's able to make rational decision, and more importantly, change his mind like he did with decriminalizing drugs in BC.
As for international student exemptions, I suspect that's because he knows private education is still a huge industry in BC, and the cap would cost jobs across the province, especially in the lower mainland.
The NDP cannot be the party of labour unions while supporting these current or increased levels of immigration and make [Statements like this](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-ndp-unions-urge-trudeau-to-introduce-program-letting-undocumented/).
I honestly don't know who people who are pro labour are even supposed to vote for anymore. Because it sure as fuck isn't team Red, Blue, or Orange.
>I honestly don't know who people who are pro labour are even supposed to vote for anymore. Because it sure as fuck isn't team Red, Blue, or Orange.
I think you can point the blame squarely at the media for that.
The media in this fucking country is absolutely filled to the brim with journalism majors who, quite frankly, look down their noses at blue collar labour and think less of anybody who didn't shell out $50,000 for a degree that would offer them a long, fruitful career as a freelance columnist with annual earnings well in excess of $32,000 per year.
Any future political leader in this country first has to get through that filter. They have to get positive coverage from those columnists and they have to appeal to those editorial boards.
So that's how we end up with a New Democratic Party led by a lawyer who prides himself on his collection of fucking rolex watches and antique bicycles. An actual representative of the Canadian middle or working class would never be permitted to rise to that level.
The NDP would easily win federally if they adopted actual progressive and left leaning economic policies that addressed systematic inequalities in our winner-takes-everything pyramid-shaped economic systems of the day.
But instead, they were effectively bought out by the same uber rich groups that bought out the Liberal Party, and the NDP puts so much energy into leftwards social identity politics that most barely even care about when they can't afford rent and food when working full time, let alone ever afford their own home.
The NDP lost their way after Jack Layton died. Choosing Mulcair over Brian Top was their first mistake and they've done nothing but worse ever since. Singth's idiotic behaviour is the reason we may be stuck with a CPC government after the next election. People who think Mulroney and Harper were bad will be in for a real eye opener once Poilievre and his right wing lunatics get their claws into governance. It's such a crying shame.
That’s how they’ll keep their PR target. They’ll draw from the pool of applicants already in the country that have soon expiring/expired visas. There will be no population drop in Canada. At best, things will stagnate for a few years and then pick right back up to 3% a year by end of the decade.
The raw number of students will go down over time, at least to the level of four years ago.
Simplified math, assuming 3 year program average:
Up to 2020: 100 new students a year, 100 leave, 300 students present
2021: 200 new students, 100 leave, 400 students present
2022: 300 new students, 100 leave, 600 present
2023: 400 new students, 100 leave, 900 present
2024: 100 new students, 200 leave, 800 present
2025: 100 new students, 300 leave, 600 present
2026: 100 new students, 400 leave, 300 present
2027 and after: 100 new students, 100 leave, 300 present
We need to see a 97% reduction in foreign students, and only allow them in for university programs in demanding fields in Canada.
Anything else is bullshit and will continue the same problem.
>We need to see a 97% reduction in foreign students
That is insane. There are 807,000 foreign students in Canada and you want to cut that to 24,200.
Foreign students are necessary at world class institutions like University of Toronto, McGill University, and University of British Columbia. Just as you would never imagine Oxford or Harvard without international students, you would be crippling Canadian institutions that aim to be at that level.
Cut back on international students attending Conestoga, sure. But leave our world-class institutions alone.
But community colleges NEED foreign students because reasons. What was originally about job training for those too dumb for university has become a foreign student factory
They went to them in the first place in Ontario because their funding was cut. They started exploiting international students to make up for the shortfall in funds then discovered a near infinite money glitch... Strip mall colleges got onto the scam shortly after and here we are. As much flak as this sub gives Trudeau provincial conservatives are just as much or not more to blame for the current crisis.
Being allowed to work in a first world country as safe and beautiful as Canada despite not being able to even talk the national language at a fourth grade level isn't slavery, it's charity
From the article:
"Canada’s overhaul of its [foreign student](https://financialpost.com/tag/international-students/) program is on track to halve the number of approved international study permits this year, according to an analysis by an education recruitment company.
If application numbers and approval rates seen in the first four months of this year remain constant throughout 2024, the number of approved study permits could drop to 229,000, [ApplyBoard said in a report](https://www.applyboard.com/applyinsights/applyboard-trends-report-2024) Wednesday, citing data from Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. That’s a 48 per cent drop from 436,678 permits approved last year.
It’s an early sign that [Prime Minister Justin Trudeau](https://financialpost.com/tag/justin-trudeau/)’s cap on international student visas will drastically curb the explosive growth of temporary immigration, which had been a key driving force behind post-pandemic rapid population increases as well as worsening housing shortages.
Trudeau’s administration announced in late January that it aims to cut this year’s number of study permits by 35 per cent from 2023, with new restrictions targeted at a subsector within the higher education industry that’s essentially been selling courses as an immigration pathway to students — many of whom were from India."
The problem is you can't back track too much. Something not talked about is that International students brought in about 24 billion dollars in revenue. College and University towns who benefit from the large intake of students will struggle as well.
Not to say this isn't needed but it won't be all sunshine and daisies for businesses in those areas
Or, another way to think about that, is that this is papering over a larger problem in our economy. Like a hit of a drug, it feels really good on the front end, but the come down is going to be rough.
If this “overhaul” doesn’t include a reform to the PGWP as a whole then it’s doing nothing. Only students enrolled in actual universities should be allowed in and even be considered for a PGWP. Our education system is being watered down and abused. A 50% reduction is NOT sufficient. Suspend the entire program for all I care.
The January announcement included a big change on PGWP - it's no longer available to private Ontario colleges partnering with public colleges. [Alex Usher](https://higheredstrategy.com/the-new-international-student-regime/):
> The government strategy isn’t just about caps. It’s also about making Canadian higher education less desirable. And it is doing this primarily by changing the rules on the Post-Graduate Work Program, a program over which it has sole legal authority.
>
> The PGWP has been a key factor in the rise of international students in Canada. First implemented by the Harper government, the idea stemmed from the observation that many immigrants had a hard time getting a foot in the door with respect to the labour market because they lacked “Canadian experience.” It allowed graduates of Canadian programs to stay in the country and work after graduation. By doing so, they could get Canadian work experience and then apply through the “Canadian Experience Class” to get permanent residence. Thus, Canadian education became a recognized “front door” pathway to citizenship.
>
> The numbers for this worked when the number of students coming into the country were in the low hundreds of thousands and most of them were university students. The math changed when numbers tripled or quadrupled and many of them went to college and found relatively menial jobs after graduation. Suddenly, the pipeline of students heading towards through the PGWP vastly outnumbered the number of spots available in the “Canadian Experience Class” (which I believe is capped in the mid tens of thousands). Agents—if not the universities and colleges themselves—have been promising a route to citizenship for years. For a while now, that proposal has not been a realistic future for many. PGWP reform was inevitable.
>
> So here is what the feds are proposing:
>
> * The length of a PGWP will now be directly tied to the length of program study. This is already mostly the case: the main change here is that graduates of two-year college programs will no longer be eligible for three-year work visas.
> * The restriction on private non-degree granting institutions not having access to the PGWP will be extended to programs at **Public-Private Partnership (PPPs) institutions in Ontario which will no longer be eligible for the PGWP**.
>
> That second one? It’s huge. **Ontario colleges outside the GTA have upwards of 125,000 international students in GTA-area PPPs**. Without the promise of a post-graduation work visa, it is hard to see how those spots are going to stay filled. My very rough guess is that this is going to take at least $1.5 billion in revenue out of Ontario colleges’ hands. They’ll have fewer students to teach so their costs will drop too, but still, this is going to hurt. A lot. I’d wager a couple of the northern colleges, who used PPPs as a way to escape the brutal economic of teaching in the more sparsely populated north, will be in need of a bailout soon.
Don’t forget about Sean Fraser. He was responsible for opening the gates back in 2021-2022 despite multiple warnings from experts saying the huge surge of newcomers was going to cause strains everywhere.
This doesnt even begin to go far enough
The simple solution is International Students are not allowed to work. They are supposed to be here to study and be able to support themselves.
The rest need to go
Any reputable field requires students to get experience while in school. Your solution will make Canadian education worthless if students are graduating without the skills necessary for a job
Skills like what, Food delivery, fast food, and service jobs?
I got a B.A.Sc and had no trouble finding a job post graduation despite bartending the whole time I was at Uni because it allowed me to graduate with zero debt.
Again, International *Students* are supposed to be here to get an education, and are supposed to be able to support themselves while they do it.
And how long ago was your degree? I got a STEM degree at UBC as an international student and I can confirm that if you didn't get internships as a student there's zero chance you get a job in this economy. The country should be trying to get skilled international students to contribute to the economy by incentivizing them to work in Canada instead of actively hurting their career because they let in too many people who want to abuse the system
Except we’re not getting skilled international students, we’re getting low skilled scammers abusing the international student path to PR.
And why exactly do international students need internships to get a job in this economy. They are here to study, they can go home after
I did? It's flimsy as anything quoting some private education company.
Meanwhile yesterday the CBSA said over 65% of people who have received order to leave the country are choosing to stay in the country and StatsCan released their most recent numbers showing another increase in the applicants and people being taken in across basically all categories including students.
So no, a flimsy article with a flimsy non-binding estimation by some private group does not assuage the concerns brought on by years of data released by our own government showing the opposite to be true. When the numbers change then beliefs will change not before.
Are you confusing their possibility estimates for real data? Their predictions are not data
You may choose to believe it or not. The numbers are falling this year because of the government's initial target to reduce it by 35%. Here's a quote from a StatCan article published yesterday. "While the estimated number of people who hold only work permits (+94,299) increased in the first quarter of 2024, the number of people who hold only study permits (-24,594) decreased. A lower number of people who hold only study permits is not uncommon in a first quarter, but the magnitude of the decrease in the first quarter of 2024 was greater than that in the same quarter of 2023 (-16,003)." https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/240619/dq240619a-eng.htm
With the protests in PEI, I wonder what would actually come if we simply cancelled work permits and issued deportation orders to all graduated students who don’t qualify for PR. Would these protests grow larger than the convoy? Would our govt use the emergency measures act against them? Freeze bank accounts? Would these protests turn violent, unlike the freedom convoy?
>I wonder what would actually come if we simply cancelled work permits and issued deportation orders to all graduated students who don’t qualify for PR.
The only reasonable thing to do. The only reason people are protesting is that they hope the government will cave in to their demands at least partially. No hope, no protest.
Plug the loopholes!
I think big businesses and lobbyists would pressure the govt to give them blanket amnesty (as they’re doing now). This govt bends to the will of private capital, and the convoy had zero institutional support from them.
Plus, the 20K is often times a line of credit from a Canadian bank that is obtained before even landing to Canada and then put into a GIC. Absolutely ridiculous.
This is because they've opened the work permit floodgates. [1.3 million are here on work permits](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-temporary-residents-in-canada-rise-to-28-million-ahead-of-government/) which nearly equals all non-permanent residents in 2022. Halving the study permits is a good start, but asylum seekers have doubled in 2 years, combined work & study permits have doubled, too.
We do not have the infrastructure to handle this unless it's brought under control. This isn't even taking into account the increased immigration and PR quotas. This is reckless policy and a reckless government. I don't believe any of the major parties will be better, either. The Conservatives, up until they noticed the Liberal nosedive, were saying that we're in a worker shortage and need every able body we can cram in. The NDP, in a statement in 2022, wanted to give PR status to temp workers upon landing.
Corporate and land-owner interests have taken this country hostage economically.
I work in health care. The most surprising this I saw thing month was a Punjabi refugee. Not quite sure how they managed to con the government into believing that one
Immigration consultants are encouraging people to take photos with Khalistan flags so that they can claim asylum if they cannot extend their visas.
I don't doubt that there are political dissidents, but considering the crises of housing, CoL, health care, etc. I am less supportive of welcoming every dissident at the expense of our living conditions here. When things improve, I'd be more supportive.
In India in order to get a student visa for the US you have to attend a serious in-person interview with a US consulate officer. You have to pass the sniff test, the officer won't approve some crap school visa or let you go if you don't have enough funds. You have to show you have something to come back to.
What we are doing is a joke, no interview is required in the majority of cases.
;I'd guess there's some reputational risk at the other end. The current batch of PWGP holders all got here when it was still an easy route to PR, but that's really started to change in the last year as the first big surge that got here after Ontario deregulated colleges are starting to find that the process has become rather congested and less certain (epitomized by CRS score,s which are too high for fluffy 18 month certificates, or PEI's PNP program which went from practically begging people to move there to stave off demographic collapse to overrun with low quality applicants) Now that they're starting to have to go home empty handed, and finding that the government isn't quite so welcoming as the consultants promised, the appeal wears off pretty quickly.
It's already too late to avoid a humanitarian crisis, so I'm still not going to vote Liberal again for decades.
We let in 500,000 legit immigrants and have 2.6 million 'temporary' immigrants in Canada in 2023. During a middle of a housing affordability crisis. It was the height of insanity and irresonsibility to do so. Foreign billionare-club investment cartels like trillion dollar+ Black Rock craft more Canadian policy than our own politicians do these days. I never had so little hope for the future of the country.
The only way they're going to do this is to time it perfectly to get as many amount of people in here as possible before they think they can switch the narrative to be voted in again.
How do they afford to move here and pay tuition is what I’d like to know, like if you have 30k a year wouldn’t that provide a better life in India than Canada?
Still a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of our immigration numbers. I have no idea why Trudeau is still so dead set on half a million permanent residents a year
Still doesn't stop them from visiting Canada as a "tourist" and then staying illegally to work and demand that Canada give them PR lol.
Only difference is that they no longer enter on a student visa so that they can in turn work illegally while ignoring school.
Foreign students were the good immigration to Canada because they integrated into Canadian society better. The fix was to limit the ability of places like Conestoga to import their entire student body, but instead we're hampering places like U of T from getting the international students it needs to be a world-class institution.
It was the TFWs that we have too much of. That was the program that should have been curtailed.
My mother is a diehard liberal supporter and I was actually surprised to hear that she’d just voted for the conservatives in her riding (St.Pauls). I never thought id hear her say that. She said she’d “seen enough”. This hasn’t gone well.
It’s important to remember that the international student system was just a loophole to citizenship that’s now gotten a bit more difficult to jump through. We have to see the growth in temporary permits overall over the next few quarters to see if people have transitioned to another loophole like the LMIA route. Most of these “students” are not real students, and many will do whatever it takes to land here and gain some sort of status. Once the door is open, it’s very hard to close, just ask the U.K, Australia, etc.
Yep, nobody is paying 30k a year to learn "hotel management " and instead it's for the PR. They won't leave easily or quietly.
I mean look what’s happening in PEI. They’re protesting to *work at Tim Hortons*. I hope PEI doesnt back down and their permits expire. Time to get the frauds outta here and start cleaning up this mess
Yup. They can go on hunger strike for as long as they want I don’t care
They will just live illegally in Canada. What is Canada going to do? Spend money to ship to them out ?
Just make sure no health insurance, no benefits, no pensions, no drivers licenses, no identification, no rights. Work on the cotton farm for their landlords. Certainly no voting and protesting rights.
They can fucking strave for All I care
I sat on a flight from Thailand a few months ago next to a Indian and his friend the seat up. 16 hour flight. Could barely understand English but taking Hospitality management somewhere in Surrey. Both of them.
My mom works at a trades university and she said they removed the English language equivalency tests for their courses. I don’t know why people would study at a school that teaches in a language they can’t understand. Well I know why. But I don’t know why we let them. Many of them cheat and many of them only show up to enough classes and do enough work to get a passible grade. And the teachers just fold if they don’t pass them. So we are inviting people who pay to barely pass their courses who can’t and don’t need to learn English, to fill jobs in low demand sectors
At a previous job, I switched positions, and a certain guy Indian joined the team. There were already two Indian guys on the team and they were competent but this new guy, could barely speak English, and his technical skills were almost non-existent. We kept wondering how he passed the interview if he could barely speak or understand English. He was let go, but I kept wondering how he passed the interview. It turns out the guy had had someone else do the interview. "He" asked for quite a bit of time before joining company like 3 months. So by the time he joined, the manager didn't quite remember the face of the person he interviewed. Essentially, the person who was interviewed was different from the one who joined the company.
damn your company waited 3 months for new employee ? ...I have never seen that happened before.
This is very common and happening in India as well. We have had to fire fake employees and amend policies in India to add additional interview rounds and a face to face interview. Makes it harder for the genuinely talented folks.
If we fingerprinted all applicants, and verified their identity at every step (english proficiency test, immigration interview, final exams for courses) we could cut the fraud to zero with not very much cost.
That’s crazy. I heard some of them share IDs too to work gig jobs
That's laughable... We want our kids to be bilingual, but these people with a free ride can get in without both English and French...
We thought we were scamming them with the sky high tuition rates to subsidize domestic students but in reality it's Canadians that are being scammed.
Canadians being scammed by both the government and the new Canadians
You should need to take a spoken and written english test to get into any post secondary program for non residents
Usually they do. Need a TOEFL . I imagine the degree mill type universities are not very stringent with their score requirements tho
A ton of these programs are shams and the ones that are real, they cheat to pass.
This. It's pretty telling when one of the protest's organizers brought up owning at least one property already. Possibly, not the best way to garner sympathy during a housing crisis for those not in the laundry business.
Until, yknow, it becomes literally impossible to get a job while they fight and scramble amongst 20 trillion other competitors from the same situation as them. Jobs will always be the limiting factor.
shit at least hotel management has a clearly defined job that can provide immediate and direct value. The one main offending college which I forget the name to has "e-sport coordinator / event manager" as one of their programs.
Nobody is going to be forced to leave. Instead, the program will be severely restricted to newcomers, and everyone who is already here will get a path to a PR and citizenship. That's the only Canadian way.
I don't have a problem with people coming here to get a Canadian post-secondary education in our universities. They become valuable members of society, and mix with the rest of society and end up with a diploma whose value is directly comparable to that of Canadians who took the same courses. What I see as an exploitation of the system is for a private unaccredited business like "Bob's Trucking School" being allowed to certify someone is a student and get them a visa. First, we have no gauge of the quality (or actuality) of such education, and second, the resulting "diploma" if real is meaningless anyway. Plus, what education are they offering that is not accredited but still takes more than a month or two? (How long do you need to train to drive a truck or frame a house?) If the business is primarily foreign students, if Canadian citizens do not see value in attending, then it is simply a shortcut and pretense for a student visa. And there's also the allegation that such arrivals actually do not do any studies but simply work, with or without the collusion of the private business.
Yeah. For legitimate post-secondary education (not scam diploma mills) the presence of high-quality foreign students greatly enriches the experience, and the high tuition they pay subsidizes Canadian students. But the system is clearly being abused by "students" who are using "education" as a way to immigrate and find work, and employers who are happy to exploit them to keep wages down. The diploma mills and shit community colleges are a big part of the problem too, but even top universities have fallen in to the trap of charging foreign students outrageous tuition fees to make up for shortfalls in provincial funding. I lectured for a while at a top university, and I can say that some of my best students were from overseas... but I was also told that I simply couldn't fail some of my worst students, because if their grades dropped below a certain point they'd be removed from the program and sent home (and no longer pay tuition).
> Yeah. For legitimate post-secondary education (not scam diploma mills) the presence of high-quality foreign students greatly enriches the experience, and the high tuition they pay subsidizes Canadian students. Yes, I was proud to see my old school, U of T, was right up there with MIT and Princeton and Stanford in trying to recruit young Sheldon Cooper. :D >charging foreign students outrageous tuition fees to make up for shortfalls in provincial funding. When I went to university in the 1970's the consensus was the government paid about 5/6 of the real cost of a Canadian university education. today it's somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3. The argument was why should foreigners be susbsidized and displace Canadians? In the USA, where student loans are a flowing river of money, most of the colleges have figure this out and decided to dip into that river as much as they can, thus causing a spiral of increasing costs and increasing loans and increasing debt.
> When I went to university in the 1970's the consensus was the government paid about 5/6 of the real cost of a Canadian university education. today it's somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3. The argument was why should foreigners be susbsidized and displace Canadians? Not sure how it worked in the 70s, but these days international students (and in some cases out-of-province students) pay far higher tutition fees than local students. Foreign students effectively subsidize domestic ones, that's a big part of the reason universities are keen to take so many. As government funding has dried up, money from foreign students has been used to plug the gaps.
What do you mean by “ask Australia”? AUS had zero immigration for 2 years and the labor market was beyond tight. It imported record number of immigrants in 2022, and then sized it down to meet the current needs, tightening the requirements. It’s an immigration system that works well for the country. The UK is basket case, they re-elected 4 times a conservative government who was on paper anti-immigrant only to triple the number of immigrants after Brexit so they could depress wages in healthcare, service, agriculture etc sectors. It has nothing to do with “ hard to close the tap”, the government intentionally increased the numbers of visas and created new routes for Indian professionals, healthcare workers etc. they still campaign on “anti immigrant” platform 😂
Nope. Have been hearing plenty of stories where folks are literally taking loans/selling land and moving to Australia and Canada to "Study" and then landing labor jobs in a year or so. Most of these folks have poor academic records, barely understand/speak english but apparently there are corrupt folks within the system that is making this easy. I also know some really talented Indian engineers who were denied visas for both Australia and Canada which sucks as they would have really made a difference to their Employers.
Nothing wrong in principle for people to use international student program for citizenship. The problem is the people, the schools, and our government corrupted the system. It’s a good way to get new healthcare workers or other professionals we need but we allow people to study at these strip mall scam schools that teach nothing of value and let anyone in. We don’t need more fast food workers. It’s so blatant, I wouldn’t be surprised if Trudeau was lobbied (bribed?) by big businesses who wanted cheap labour.
it’s no conspiracy theory- Here is the industry lobby group Restaurants Canada bragging about successfully lobbying the government for more TFWs and loosening restrictions on LIMAs (now valid for 36months instead of 18. 3 years for a “temporary” worker lmao what a joke) https://www.restaurantscanada.org/big-win-for-the-food-service-industry/
> now valid for 36months As part of the general tightening of immigration and temporary foreign workers, [LMIA validity has now been cut to six months](https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/news/2024/03/government-of-canada-to-adjust-temporary-measures-under-the-temporary-foreign-worker-program-workforce-solutions-road-map.html).
Good! Still doesn’t change the fact that industry associations are lobbying for their bottom line at the detriment of everyone else. These places need to be called out and ostracized for putting greed before country.
I believe that’s for non-registered employers, if a company is on the registered program they can still get a 3-year LMIA (I don’t know if that program was suspended). Now keep in mind an LMIA is not a work permit, so this means the employer less time to use it (not assuming you don’t know, I just noticed some people don’t). 6 months is still a long time.
>We don’t need more fast food workers. It’s so blatant, I wouldn’t be surprised if Trudeau was lobbied (bribed?) by big businesses who wanted cheap labour. Given we're transitioning to a "post-work" economy, the most surplus unskilled labour we allow in the more of an expensive problem it will increasingly be (even beyond the impact on the housing supply). Canada's ruling class, however, seem to want neo-feudalism (and perhaps chaos in the future). The recent Bank of Canada rate cut announcement celebrated a lessening of (perpetually subpar) Canadian wages increasing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9TCXxZ3gRk&t=69s
Headline should be Foreign freeloaders disguised as students....
It's also important to remember the Liberals made this a temporary cut - to last until after the next election. Then, if they are re-elected, it will likely go back up.
I'll believe it when I see the numbers reported next year. For all I know the government closed 3 doors but opened 6 windows.
I believe it, I work as an internatioal student advisor, and the visa denials currently are breathtaking. We are seeing a 60% denial rate on our end. Of course different universities could be having different experiences, but if this is any indication, the govt is on track to slash numbers. Simultaneously interest in the USA has skyrocketed.
The US was always their main goal, but since Canada has always accepted everyone, it was much easier to get into Canada first and try for the US later.
Perhaps. I've worked for American schools, and the US embassy is pretty tough. Just to get an appointment for a US tourist visa (B visa) as a foreign national in Canada (who requires an interview), takes 854 days. Also F-1 visas always required much more in financial evidence. Canada has boosted is financial requirements making it harder for many student to come up with the fiduciary evidence to garner a visa. I think this is why we are seeing much more denials.
My boyfriend applied in September of last year and was scheduled for the following September but was able to get an earlier appointment and had his interview last month. He also said he was one of the few non Indian people there to interview.
I don't know. The prospect of getting canadian student visa and working at tim Hortons to getting a visa for the US doesn't seem viable.
They may not know thar.
This is honestly not true ive worked with many international students from india and the US wasnt even an after thought for the majorIty of them… their satisfied just getting permanent residency in Canada
Different segment. For the true students, the ones that come from middle to upper class, US is their first choice. But they started to consider Canada for the last 10 years (recent trend) than Australia. The ones that purely want PR will always do their research and pursue the easiest path. That path happened to be Canada (instead of US, Aus, NZ)
All indians that come to canada are at least upper middle class in India even the ones that go to diploma mills.. however rich for indian standards does not mean rich for Canadian standards… the ones that go to diploma mills probably have a household income of around $1500 a month in india which is considered rich in india
You're from Indonesia. You would probably understand the economy level of the true International Students that aspire to go to UofT, UBC, SFU. Definitely not from family where the parents income at $1500/month level. The ones that cannot afford go to Malaysia/Aussie to take diploma (at least that used to be the case).
This is not remotely true. Many of my cousins are here. None of them are Indian wealthy
>internatioal student advisor For a college or university?
University. I'm assuming some of these less than reputable private career colleges will be hit harder.
I have a friend that works for a private college. Almost no one is applying. He thinks that they'll close down in a few weeks if this continues. So yes, this reduction in foreign students is happening.
Interesting. Ya many of these small private colleges, especially in Ontario, were almost entirely made up of international students. I can't see them surviving. Which I guess is the point.
Closing down those shitty diploma mills will be a bonus. The certificates and diplomas they issue aren't worth the paper they're written on. The only thing you need to graduate is a cheque in the right amount and to maybe show up once in a while.
Yep. this cut in visas is working as intended. Now all it needs is to hit colleges like Conestoga even harder.
Hold on, give me a minute to tune my tiny fiddle
I'll join you with the tiniest violin.
Good. Better late than never.
Thank you very much for the context!
Good, not even enough, we all know many of the applications are from fake students to fake schools
For Sure. I think you should expect to see mass closures of these diploma mills over the next year or two, especially in Ontario. That's my prediction anyway.
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Ya I suppose it's hard to prevent them from simply opening and running their business like any private school (as long as they are not doing anything illegal), so the government can really only hit them where their revenue stream lives, i.e. immigration and visas. Private schools that still focus on domestic students won't be affected by any of this, but like you said those are few.
Even if a big swath of us don’t like a sitting government, we should acknowledge when policy shifts in a better direction The outrage generated in the public sphere is at least moving some needles. In Ontario we know Ford and his Minister of Colleges and Universities is pissed about this (demonstrates how widespread these issues truly are)
> we should acknowledge when policy shifts in a better direction Sure, you can recognize someone stopped punching you in the face - but don't forget they started punching you in the face in the first place.
You mean when people are punching you in the face Ontarios Leading Conservative Party and premier were PISSED about the new caps and changes. Ford called it a “sledgehammer to the whole system” and said the province was “blindsided” This issue spans parties
So the Liberals do what the Conservative party wants them to do now? That seems like it looks worse on the Liberals than anyone...
I mean - it’s well documented. Zero reason for any of us as individuals to spin our bias into the discussion because it’s fun to play team sports in politics. The rot runs deep. “The Ford government has repeatedly accused Ottawa of dropping the cap on international students out of nowhere. Minister of Colleges and Universities Jill Dunlop previously said a lack of consultation had caused “chaos” in the province and Premier Doug Ford said the Trudeau government had “taken a sledgehammer to the whole system” and “blindsided” him.” “The move was decried by colleges and universities in the province, which say they have become increasingly reliant on international students to fund their operations. A tuition fee cut and freeze introduced by the Ford government in 2019 has seen international tuition become a key part of the revenue drawn by post-secondary institutions.” [https://globalnews.ca/news/10320935/immigration-minister-ontariosinternational-student-claims-garbage/](https://globalnews.ca/news/10320935/immigration-minister-ontariosinternational-student-claims-garbage/) And: Trudeau: “But the large part of it is in two categories: international students and temporary foreign workers. International students went from like 200,000 a year to 700,000 a year over the past few years. DUBNER: Wow, why was that? TRUDEAU: Because there was a real decision by universities, and particularly by the provinces who run the universities, to go out — DUBNER: They’re cash customers, correct? TRUDEAU: They are. We have tuition fees in Canada of between $5 and $10,000 a year for our top-notch universities, depending on the programs. But international students will pay $25, $30,000 because they don’t get the same level of subsidies that Canadian citizens will, which is totally natural. But universities suddenly started to realize that they could bring in lots more international students and make up for some of the funding shortfalls that every institution is facing. DUBNER: And these are students coming primarily from China, and some India? TRUDEAU: India, China, and a few other places. The problem is that that has then turned around and put a lot of pressure on local housing in university towns, which pretty much all our towns are. And it’s also decreased the quality of education and caused a rash of mental-health issues, including suicides in international students that we’ve seen over the past few years. So as a government, we decided that we were going to curtail the number of international students coming in, and get that under control so — DUBNER: This is recent, right? These are new temporary caps. TRUDEAU: This is recent, this is just over the past couple of months, so that we can respond to the housing pressures and the issues around that. DUBNER: What do the universities say to you? Because all of a sudden their budgets look a little bit less healthy. TRUDEAU: Yeah, they weren’t very happy. Nor were the provinces, in some cases. But for us, the provinces were maybe not stepping up on controlling things the way they should have, to prevented us from getting into this. [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/a-social-activist-in-prime-ministers-clothing/](https://freakonomics.com/podcast/a-social-activist-in-prime-ministers-clothing/)
Too little too late. The ones here already will be fast tracked to approval before the Lib/NDP coalition gets turfed in October 2025.
Which Ontarios provincial Conservative Party is actively mad about (international student reductions) This problem spans parties From Feb 22, 2024 “‘Very disappointed’: Ford government says international student cap will hurt economy, calls out Ottawa” https://www.thestar.com/politics/provincial/very-disappointed-ford-government-says-international-student-cap-will-hurt-economy-calls-out-ottawa/article_311b1d2e-d0e3-11ee-8381-d3118598cacf.html “ Speaking at an unrelated event on Friday in Brampton, Ford said the federal government “blindsided” the province with its announcement to cap the number of international students, a move he said was like taking “a sledgehammer to the system.” When it comes to funding universities and colleges, Ontario is dead last. Ford has deliberately underfunded post-secondary education in Ontario for years, creating a situation where universities and colleges were forced to become over reliant on international tuition fees as a significant source of revenue.” Among all provinces, Ontario is last in public funding per student at the post-secondary level. Institutions have been forced to increase their acceptance of international students to make up for the rapidly growing funding gap created by the Ford government.
I totally agree. The International student changes happening right now are seismic. Even previous governments have not made such drastic changes in such a short period of time.
Excellent. I hope this spread across universities
Good, US is better anyway
If your student mix let’s say was west Africa 60% is low. If your student mix is India, 60% is high compared to previous years. I wonder if the higher cash on hand requirement is just that much harder?
I agree, west Africa has always been a mixed bag. But I'm guessing the higher financial requirements are a big hurdle, but from what I have been hearing as well is that they are denying based on having family in Canada. If these students mention they have a brother or sister or cousin in Canada studying or living, they are being denied based on suspicion they don't plan on leaving after they complete their studies. Essentially not strong enough ties in their home country.
That makes sense. It’s going to be a wild next 18 months.
this is why I work in this industry, never know what is going to happen next, and never a dull moment. :-)
What was the denial rate before?
It is usually around half that, like 30% roughly.
A step in the right direction! So how does it work? They apply for school and then Canada decides after if they are approved? Also where do you find the majority of applicants come from? I’m assuming almost all from India 🙄
I'm summarizing here, but Essentially international students apply for the university or college of their choice. If their application is rejected by the school, the process stops there. Of course some programs are harder to get into than others, and where the issues lied was in these diploma mills that had very low standards. Schools Like U of T or UBC etc were not the issue here. Once a student is admitted they need to file some paper work and get some documentation from the college or university, often make a deposit, which essentially shows financial capability end legitimacy. The students would then take this paper work (which has been signed off by the college or university), to the Canadian embassy where students need to have an in person interviews with an immigration officer. This can be half the battle itself, as often many Canadian embassies are booking interviews months or years out. The Interview is to screen students to make sure they are legitimate students, and have the financial means. They will review their paper work, financial history, current and past employment, family ties to Canada etc. These interviews last only minutes and decisions are often made on the spot, and reasons for denial are generally vague, it cannot be appealed. Students can try interviewing again, but if they do not resolve the issue from the first denial, their chances of success are low. If students are denied a visa, they often lose any deposit they made to the school in question. Right now India and China are still big, but West Africa is very much on the rise and there are more and more students coming from this location. However with the new higher financials needed, and reduced student visas being issued, these demographics could change drastically.
Thanks for the response! Absolutely insane that we’re taking in so many people who are aiming to get PR from countries who are starkly different from Canada and entirely unskilled. Where are our Portuguese construction workers?! We need the houses 😭😭 Or med students?!
> and the visa denials currently are breathtaking. We are seeing a 60% denial rate on our end. is it at a major uni? mostly undergrads or funded grad students too? like i dont care for rejections for colleges and diplomas, but i wouldnt want to be denying phds at waterloo for example.
Yes a major University. A fully funded Grad or PhD student would have an easier time since financials would be covered more, but they can still be denied for other reasons.
Which university, if you don’t mind me asking? Pretty ridiculous that they are messing with the universities since colleges were the biggest offenders
Was interest in the USA always more popular? I'm not sure why you'd choose Canada if you could get into the US tbh.
Not in my experience, but I'm sure it varies by study and industry. The USA had harder entry requirements, but the difficulty in garnering a work permit and eventually a green card in the USA made Canada much more desirable, since Canada would offer PR not based on an employer sponsoring you (like in the USA). However if Canada moves to a more American model, it could see a shift towards the USA.
USA immigration is insane. Once you graduate from Canada, you get work permit. It’s pretty much guaranteed. Once you graduate in the USA, you have to get through lottery for a work visa that is filled with fraud. Essentially, there are 85k visas but around 200k-300k applicants. Feel free to calculate chances
Private Colleges (diploma mills) in Ontario will be restricted from student visas. There are 80 of them in places like Brampton which will be forced to shut down. It will only leave two public institutions (Algoma university , Sheridan College) left standing. This is a huge impact in the GTA.
They’ve essentially moved to a one in, one out system . The number of visas they have for this year will be close to the number from 4 years ago - which of course will be lower than the record high from last year. That said, the total number of students in the country will not change. It’s not a reduction, it is a cap that matches the all time record high.
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The Federal NDP honestly baffles me with the direction they've taken under Singh. They were a pro-labour party first and foremost under Layton, and to a less extent under Mulcair, but with Singh, they've basically switched over completely to a predominantly socially left focussed papaty. At least the provincial NDP in BC under both Horgan and Eby have both done a far better job of balancing their priorities and have held firm on supporting pro-labour policy, even if those policies might not be the most socially left leaning. Biggest example is their stance on old growth logging.
Eby's record isn't perfect on labour issues. He was one of the premiers who asked for an exemption to the international student cap.
He's not perfect for sure, but I appreciate that he's able to make rational decision, and more importantly, change his mind like he did with decriminalizing drugs in BC. As for international student exemptions, I suspect that's because he knows private education is still a huge industry in BC, and the cap would cost jobs across the province, especially in the lower mainland.
The NDP cannot be the party of labour unions while supporting these current or increased levels of immigration and make [Statements like this](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-ndp-unions-urge-trudeau-to-introduce-program-letting-undocumented/). I honestly don't know who people who are pro labour are even supposed to vote for anymore. Because it sure as fuck isn't team Red, Blue, or Orange.
>I honestly don't know who people who are pro labour are even supposed to vote for anymore. Because it sure as fuck isn't team Red, Blue, or Orange. I think you can point the blame squarely at the media for that. The media in this fucking country is absolutely filled to the brim with journalism majors who, quite frankly, look down their noses at blue collar labour and think less of anybody who didn't shell out $50,000 for a degree that would offer them a long, fruitful career as a freelance columnist with annual earnings well in excess of $32,000 per year. Any future political leader in this country first has to get through that filter. They have to get positive coverage from those columnists and they have to appeal to those editorial boards. So that's how we end up with a New Democratic Party led by a lawyer who prides himself on his collection of fucking rolex watches and antique bicycles. An actual representative of the Canadian middle or working class would never be permitted to rise to that level.
The NDP would easily win federally if they adopted actual progressive and left leaning economic policies that addressed systematic inequalities in our winner-takes-everything pyramid-shaped economic systems of the day. But instead, they were effectively bought out by the same uber rich groups that bought out the Liberal Party, and the NDP puts so much energy into leftwards social identity politics that most barely even care about when they can't afford rent and food when working full time, let alone ever afford their own home.
The NDP lost their way after Jack Layton died. Choosing Mulcair over Brian Top was their first mistake and they've done nothing but worse ever since. Singth's idiotic behaviour is the reason we may be stuck with a CPC government after the next election. People who think Mulroney and Harper were bad will be in for a real eye opener once Poilievre and his right wing lunatics get their claws into governance. It's such a crying shame.
Still going to vote for them though, cause liberals have had enough time and I won't support the bigotry from the conservatives or further right
Same. I love how people bend over backwards to convince you the NDP aren't worth voting for while recommending the LPC and CPC. Get real.
That’s how they’ll keep their PR target. They’ll draw from the pool of applicants already in the country that have soon expiring/expired visas. There will be no population drop in Canada. At best, things will stagnate for a few years and then pick right back up to 3% a year by end of the decade.
The raw number of students will go down over time, at least to the level of four years ago. Simplified math, assuming 3 year program average: Up to 2020: 100 new students a year, 100 leave, 300 students present 2021: 200 new students, 100 leave, 400 students present 2022: 300 new students, 100 leave, 600 present 2023: 400 new students, 100 leave, 900 present 2024: 100 new students, 200 leave, 800 present 2025: 100 new students, 300 leave, 600 present 2026: 100 new students, 400 leave, 300 present 2027 and after: 100 new students, 100 leave, 300 present
We need to see a 97% reduction in foreign students, and only allow them in for university programs in demanding fields in Canada. Anything else is bullshit and will continue the same problem.
>We need to see a 97% reduction in foreign students That is insane. There are 807,000 foreign students in Canada and you want to cut that to 24,200. Foreign students are necessary at world class institutions like University of Toronto, McGill University, and University of British Columbia. Just as you would never imagine Oxford or Harvard without international students, you would be crippling Canadian institutions that aim to be at that level. Cut back on international students attending Conestoga, sure. But leave our world-class institutions alone.
But community colleges NEED foreign students because reasons. What was originally about job training for those too dumb for university has become a foreign student factory
They went to them in the first place in Ontario because their funding was cut. They started exploiting international students to make up for the shortfall in funds then discovered a near infinite money glitch... Strip mall colleges got onto the scam shortly after and here we are. As much flak as this sub gives Trudeau provincial conservatives are just as much or not more to blame for the current crisis.
They are now all TFWs. Skip the fakeness and go straight to being workers.
Stop calling them TFW's, call it what it is, Slavery.
Being allowed to work in a first world country as safe and beautiful as Canada despite not being able to even talk the national language at a fourth grade level isn't slavery, it's charity
Exactly.
And the ones that are here ain't leaving so the population keeps growing no matter what. These people are "temporary" in name only.
Don't forget those tunnels.
From the article: "Canada’s overhaul of its [foreign student](https://financialpost.com/tag/international-students/) program is on track to halve the number of approved international study permits this year, according to an analysis by an education recruitment company. If application numbers and approval rates seen in the first four months of this year remain constant throughout 2024, the number of approved study permits could drop to 229,000, [ApplyBoard said in a report](https://www.applyboard.com/applyinsights/applyboard-trends-report-2024) Wednesday, citing data from Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. That’s a 48 per cent drop from 436,678 permits approved last year. It’s an early sign that [Prime Minister Justin Trudeau](https://financialpost.com/tag/justin-trudeau/)’s cap on international student visas will drastically curb the explosive growth of temporary immigration, which had been a key driving force behind post-pandemic rapid population increases as well as worsening housing shortages. Trudeau’s administration announced in late January that it aims to cut this year’s number of study permits by 35 per cent from 2023, with new restrictions targeted at a subsector within the higher education industry that’s essentially been selling courses as an immigration pathway to students — many of whom were from India."
I cannot wait for applyboard to go belly up. Shitty business build on scam with very toxic environment.
That feeling when you are driving 200 km/h in a 60 km/h zone but you want credit for backing off to 120 km/h.
Excellent way to put it
The problem is you can't back track too much. Something not talked about is that International students brought in about 24 billion dollars in revenue. College and University towns who benefit from the large intake of students will struggle as well. Not to say this isn't needed but it won't be all sunshine and daisies for businesses in those areas
Or, another way to think about that, is that this is papering over a larger problem in our economy. Like a hit of a drug, it feels really good on the front end, but the come down is going to be rough.
they can struggle and shut down for all i care. the situation is untenable for the vast majority of canadians right now.
Those Colleges took all the benefits ($$$) but socialized all the costs to society.
Better be a hell of a lot more than “halving”
last time they said they were reducing numbers we had the most ever.
The system has some lag to it. Can’t turn on a dime.
If this “overhaul” doesn’t include a reform to the PGWP as a whole then it’s doing nothing. Only students enrolled in actual universities should be allowed in and even be considered for a PGWP. Our education system is being watered down and abused. A 50% reduction is NOT sufficient. Suspend the entire program for all I care.
The January announcement included a big change on PGWP - it's no longer available to private Ontario colleges partnering with public colleges. [Alex Usher](https://higheredstrategy.com/the-new-international-student-regime/): > The government strategy isn’t just about caps. It’s also about making Canadian higher education less desirable. And it is doing this primarily by changing the rules on the Post-Graduate Work Program, a program over which it has sole legal authority. > > The PGWP has been a key factor in the rise of international students in Canada. First implemented by the Harper government, the idea stemmed from the observation that many immigrants had a hard time getting a foot in the door with respect to the labour market because they lacked “Canadian experience.” It allowed graduates of Canadian programs to stay in the country and work after graduation. By doing so, they could get Canadian work experience and then apply through the “Canadian Experience Class” to get permanent residence. Thus, Canadian education became a recognized “front door” pathway to citizenship. > > The numbers for this worked when the number of students coming into the country were in the low hundreds of thousands and most of them were university students. The math changed when numbers tripled or quadrupled and many of them went to college and found relatively menial jobs after graduation. Suddenly, the pipeline of students heading towards through the PGWP vastly outnumbered the number of spots available in the “Canadian Experience Class” (which I believe is capped in the mid tens of thousands). Agents—if not the universities and colleges themselves—have been promising a route to citizenship for years. For a while now, that proposal has not been a realistic future for many. PGWP reform was inevitable. > > So here is what the feds are proposing: > > * The length of a PGWP will now be directly tied to the length of program study. This is already mostly the case: the main change here is that graduates of two-year college programs will no longer be eligible for three-year work visas. > * The restriction on private non-degree granting institutions not having access to the PGWP will be extended to programs at **Public-Private Partnership (PPPs) institutions in Ontario which will no longer be eligible for the PGWP**. > > That second one? It’s huge. **Ontario colleges outside the GTA have upwards of 125,000 international students in GTA-area PPPs**. Without the promise of a post-graduation work visa, it is hard to see how those spots are going to stay filled. My very rough guess is that this is going to take at least $1.5 billion in revenue out of Ontario colleges’ hands. They’ll have fewer students to teach so their costs will drop too, but still, this is going to hurt. A lot. I’d wager a couple of the northern colleges, who used PPPs as a way to escape the brutal economic of teaching in the more sparsely populated north, will be in need of a bailout soon.
GOOD
How about zero? Followed by deportations.
Yup. And deport Marc Miller too
Don’t forget about Sean Fraser. He was responsible for opening the gates back in 2021-2022 despite multiple warnings from experts saying the huge surge of newcomers was going to cause strains everywhere.
This doesnt even begin to go far enough The simple solution is International Students are not allowed to work. They are supposed to be here to study and be able to support themselves. The rest need to go
Any reputable field requires students to get experience while in school. Your solution will make Canadian education worthless if students are graduating without the skills necessary for a job
Skills like what, Food delivery, fast food, and service jobs? I got a B.A.Sc and had no trouble finding a job post graduation despite bartending the whole time I was at Uni because it allowed me to graduate with zero debt. Again, International *Students* are supposed to be here to get an education, and are supposed to be able to support themselves while they do it.
And how long ago was your degree? I got a STEM degree at UBC as an international student and I can confirm that if you didn't get internships as a student there's zero chance you get a job in this economy. The country should be trying to get skilled international students to contribute to the economy by incentivizing them to work in Canada instead of actively hurting their career because they let in too many people who want to abuse the system
Except we’re not getting skilled international students, we’re getting low skilled scammers abusing the international student path to PR. And why exactly do international students need internships to get a job in this economy. They are here to study, they can go home after
I’ll believe it when Conestoga goes out of business
This is just foreign students. Show me TFW's and all other vectors of immigration
Its a start but not enough.
Numbers need to be negative
And the number will still be higher than before COVID no doubt
Damage is already done. They need to stop converting them into Permanent Residents if they want to see actual change and deport the ones that stay.
Yeah nobody believes a word of it show us the change in real numbers
Read the article
I did? It's flimsy as anything quoting some private education company. Meanwhile yesterday the CBSA said over 65% of people who have received order to leave the country are choosing to stay in the country and StatsCan released their most recent numbers showing another increase in the applicants and people being taken in across basically all categories including students. So no, a flimsy article with a flimsy non-binding estimation by some private group does not assuage the concerns brought on by years of data released by our own government showing the opposite to be true. When the numbers change then beliefs will change not before. Are you confusing their possibility estimates for real data? Their predictions are not data
You may choose to believe it or not. The numbers are falling this year because of the government's initial target to reduce it by 35%. Here's a quote from a StatCan article published yesterday. "While the estimated number of people who hold only work permits (+94,299) increased in the first quarter of 2024, the number of people who hold only study permits (-24,594) decreased. A lower number of people who hold only study permits is not uncommon in a first quarter, but the magnitude of the decrease in the first quarter of 2024 was greater than that in the same quarter of 2023 (-16,003)." https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/240619/dq240619a-eng.htm
Love to see it
our healthcare and public service workers deserve this breathing room. They are exhausted
Good. I have no problem with immigration or people moving here...but this loophole has been a problem.
One half of a shitload of foreign ”students” is still a shitload of foreign ”students”. It’s still way too many, but it’s a start.
Now all the diploma mills need to be tracked down and closed!
With the protests in PEI, I wonder what would actually come if we simply cancelled work permits and issued deportation orders to all graduated students who don’t qualify for PR. Would these protests grow larger than the convoy? Would our govt use the emergency measures act against them? Freeze bank accounts? Would these protests turn violent, unlike the freedom convoy?
>I wonder what would actually come if we simply cancelled work permits and issued deportation orders to all graduated students who don’t qualify for PR. The only reasonable thing to do. The only reason people are protesting is that they hope the government will cave in to their demands at least partially. No hope, no protest. Plug the loopholes!
I think big businesses and lobbyists would pressure the govt to give them blanket amnesty (as they’re doing now). This govt bends to the will of private capital, and the convoy had zero institutional support from them.
Still too many
About fucking time. But it should be 10% of what it was since we have massive amounts of foreign students here already.
It's a start.
It's less than the start. A prologue if you will
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Plus, the 20K is often times a line of credit from a Canadian bank that is obtained before even landing to Canada and then put into a GIC. Absolutely ridiculous.
The $20k “proof” is viewed once then the balance is transferred to another “student”. The proof of funds needs to be re-verified randomly.
Lol, with 2,600 starting rent in most cities
This is because they've opened the work permit floodgates. [1.3 million are here on work permits](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-temporary-residents-in-canada-rise-to-28-million-ahead-of-government/) which nearly equals all non-permanent residents in 2022. Halving the study permits is a good start, but asylum seekers have doubled in 2 years, combined work & study permits have doubled, too. We do not have the infrastructure to handle this unless it's brought under control. This isn't even taking into account the increased immigration and PR quotas. This is reckless policy and a reckless government. I don't believe any of the major parties will be better, either. The Conservatives, up until they noticed the Liberal nosedive, were saying that we're in a worker shortage and need every able body we can cram in. The NDP, in a statement in 2022, wanted to give PR status to temp workers upon landing. Corporate and land-owner interests have taken this country hostage economically.
I work in health care. The most surprising this I saw thing month was a Punjabi refugee. Not quite sure how they managed to con the government into believing that one
Immigration consultants are encouraging people to take photos with Khalistan flags so that they can claim asylum if they cannot extend their visas. I don't doubt that there are political dissidents, but considering the crises of housing, CoL, health care, etc. I am less supportive of welcoming every dissident at the expense of our living conditions here. When things improve, I'd be more supportive.
Too little, far too late.
In India in order to get a student visa for the US you have to attend a serious in-person interview with a US consulate officer. You have to pass the sniff test, the officer won't approve some crap school visa or let you go if you don't have enough funds. You have to show you have something to come back to. What we are doing is a joke, no interview is required in the majority of cases.
Typical politicians, create a problem first then fix it just to say they're doing something good.
Still half too many.
;I'd guess there's some reputational risk at the other end. The current batch of PWGP holders all got here when it was still an easy route to PR, but that's really started to change in the last year as the first big surge that got here after Ontario deregulated colleges are starting to find that the process has become rather congested and less certain (epitomized by CRS score,s which are too high for fluffy 18 month certificates, or PEI's PNP program which went from practically begging people to move there to stave off demographic collapse to overrun with low quality applicants) Now that they're starting to have to go home empty handed, and finding that the government isn't quite so welcoming as the consultants promised, the appeal wears off pretty quickly.
It's already too late to avoid a humanitarian crisis, so I'm still not going to vote Liberal again for decades. We let in 500,000 legit immigrants and have 2.6 million 'temporary' immigrants in Canada in 2023. During a middle of a housing affordability crisis. It was the height of insanity and irresonsibility to do so. Foreign billionare-club investment cartels like trillion dollar+ Black Rock craft more Canadian policy than our own politicians do these days. I never had so little hope for the future of the country.
Thank gawd
Sure as hell cut their funding for the military though!
The only way they're going to do this is to time it perfectly to get as many amount of people in here as possible before they think they can switch the narrative to be voted in again.
Usually politicians first create a problem and then solve it and then say they are doing something good for you.
How do they afford to move here and pay tuition is what I’d like to know, like if you have 30k a year wouldn’t that provide a better life in India than Canada?
They are declaring victory, when they have done nothing more than score 50% on THIS PART of the test.
Sean Fraser is sad
They are assets to this ~~company~~ country
They will replace the gap with more Care Givers. Nothing will change
Still a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of our immigration numbers. I have no idea why Trudeau is still so dead set on half a million permanent residents a year
They know what's best for you and your family. They just do! /s
Too little too late. We need to actually reduce numbers not just cap them to the current unsustainable number
Still doesn't stop them from visiting Canada as a "tourist" and then staying illegally to work and demand that Canada give them PR lol. Only difference is that they no longer enter on a student visa so that they can in turn work illegally while ignoring school.
Foreign students were the good immigration to Canada because they integrated into Canadian society better. The fix was to limit the ability of places like Conestoga to import their entire student body, but instead we're hampering places like U of T from getting the international students it needs to be a world-class institution. It was the TFWs that we have too much of. That was the program that should have been curtailed.
we have too many sankofa in this country
Thank God. Though it will probably take decades to clean up the horrendous immigration mess the ineptitude of this government has created.
Let’s not talk about the driver license for cash scheme
Does the half that are still coming realize the shit they are about to walk into?
Going through the same thing in Australia. Clampdown starts on July 1st.
That's good because we were on the cusp of a situation where there could have been some physical scuffles and protests erupting.
This government is the worst admin I’ve ever seen. Nobody else is even close.
I can't wait to vote for conservative/PPC for the first time in my life.
My mother is a diehard liberal supporter and I was actually surprised to hear that she’d just voted for the conservatives in her riding (St.Pauls). I never thought id hear her say that. She said she’d “seen enough”. This hasn’t gone well.
this is my first time being old enough to vote federally and I am excited to make my voice heard as well