I’m a dentist and the politicians running this have been consistently high-handed and uncommunicative with us.
They’ve alienated the profession over simple stuff like balance-billing, pre-determination and attempting to get us to sign a one-sided contract, to name just three.
I’ll be accepting existing patients from next month, but if they nickel and dime on denying claims, or make it a bureaucratic nightmare I’m off.
And this comes from someone that treats disability and welfare patients at a loss because social contract etc.
I hate to call someone dishonest without meeting them, but I think Holland’s a bit economical with the actualite.
I held a regional dental association dinner at my restaurant about 3 years ago. It was a buyout and I have an open concept kitchen.
So I heard what was on the table for discussions that night.
These guys DID NOT want to partake in this stuff.
The PEI Dental Association said it wasn't the people, it was the expected paperwork that they were opposed to: basically 30 minutes of unpaid paperwork for every hour or two per government funded patient. Over a year that adds up to a lot of unpaid work that dentists will be expected to fulfill.
But also, unfortunately, low socio-economics groups tend to take much less care of their teeth than wealthier groups. If you've seen the tartar removal nightmare videos, you can start to get an idea of how awful it is for a dentist to clean that and also know they'll have an hour of unpaid paperwork to fill to get reimbursed by the government in who knows how long.
Avoiding excess sugar is the biggest challenge, as is brushing teeth.
Low socioeconomic status people generally can't afford things that allow them to save money in the long run, like refrigerators, bulk rice/potatoes storage, cooking them, etc... so they have to defer to very crappy fast food options that are high in sugar and sodium.
Then there's the whole, you are what you eat. If you eat shit food, you tend to feel shitty.
Being low socioeconomic status is running a race with a ball and chain attached to your ankles when you're competing against someone who has access to food security, and running water.
Let's remove tooth brushing from this equation, right now.
The fucked up part is, the CPC want to stop kids from getting at least ONE good meal a day at schools - which would allow those kids to fucking calorie load like bandits, on nutritious food.
We can't remove tooth brushing from the equation, and tooth brushing (and to a lower extend flossing and using mouthwash) is a big factor in dental health, and it's accessible to virtually everyone regardless of socioeconomic status.
I'm also not sure why you mentioned running water, as just about everyone regardless of their socioeconomic status has access to running water.
TBH beyond basic fillings most of my benefits claims take over an hour of admin work on my side. I usually have to stay on hold for over 30 minutes and arrange for extra documentation.
> basically 30 minutes of unpaid paperwork for every hour or two per government funded patient
This sounds very grossly exaggerated and would love to see some sources on it, as it makes little sense. Maybe the very first time a patient has come to your office, to get them into the system. But there is absolutely no way it's taking 30 minutes of paperwork for operations if the person is already in your system.
>But also, unfortunately, low socio-economics groups tend to take much less care of their teeth than wealthier groups.
Hmm... wonder why this is... Could it be... because they can't afford dental care?
Yes a lot have more mental issues and stresses that might result in less brushing or personal care. But having access to routine checkups/cleanings/repairs helps *prevent* most of the serious problems that would be a major pain to fix.
Paperwork doesn't grow in size by the length of a procedure, in no world would that make any sense or someone even be able to come up with paperwork that would cause that. You fill out what operations were done, the client details, and you're done.
>The PEI Dental Association said it wasn't the people
Ah yes, trusting the people who want to maximize their profit at the expense of the health of the population to be honest about why they don't want socialized dental care... Sounds logical.
I’m not sure how dentists do their paperwork, but I’m sure if they have anything that’s similar to medicine then it’s a lot of work.
Physicians need to write what they did during the visit, fill out billing info and some other add ons depending on standard of care requirements. It definitely does take extra time, even more so for the complicated procedures.
The problem or the concerns with the dental plan are not linked demographics.
If the government paid the provincial fee guide for the plan, and didn’t try to dictate what is or isn’t eligible for coverage you would have 90-95% acceptance.
This is akin to you already being busy enough at work, and your employer comes to you and says you are going to take this work, we are going to pay you less than you make right now, the patient is going to have unreasonable expectations, and there is a bunch more red tape and paper work.
Why do you think people don’t want to sign up?
It’s the same culture and core problem in medicine. Pay up or pay the market price and there won’t be problems.
AWWWW POOR DENTISTS HAVING TO POTENTIALLY DEAL WITH COMPLEX LOWER SOCIOECONOMIC PATIENTS AND TONS OF PAPERWORK!!! WAAAAAAH..
Sorry, I’m a GP… welcome to my life..
In all seriousness? I don’t dislike all dentists. I’m quite fond of my dentist and previous dentists.
I don’t really have much faith in provincial governments or the federal government running things in this country, so I do understand the frustration from dentists.
And I certainly don’t agree with some of my GP colleagues bashing dentists and telling them to “ suck it up you bunch of wusses who couldn’t make it to medical school ”( direct quote from a GP buddy at a party, unfortunately very harsh comment).
Aghhh, it’s such a complex issue- I don’t know what to say..
I didn't realize that Canadian education is failing at teaching metaphors, analogies, and basic comprehension in everyday conversation.
Thanks for the heads up.
This isn't the dunk you think it is. An analogy only works if there are some shared properties/outcomes between the two that are relevant.
Health care has a much more significant impact on society than what 7-11 does, and is a concept in itself not a specific business. A healthy society operates better and has less problems. More people getting access to health care improves everyone's lives. There is far too much depth to the issue for such a surface level "analogy" as that. 7-11 doesn't do anything significant or helpful, it's a neutral business that provides things you can get pretty much anywhere.
Your comparison is like going "why should we have to wear helmets on motorcycles, should we force people to wear them while sitting in their home too??? take that libt*rd!"
Ontario West has a bunch. Quebec probably doesn't because Circle-K/Couche-Tard is based there. It's not a language thing either, 7-11 is a Japanese company and is all over East and SEA as well as here.
My spouse is a doctor. I’m very well aware of the lifestyle. You definitely do not set your own hours, and you do not set the amount of work you get per day. If you’re setting your own hours, you are certianly leaving patients waiting, because there are far more patients than doctors to service them.
You’re equating dentists to doctors. No dentist in their right mind would give up orderly office hours for the situation that is the public healthcare system, and there is nothing wrong with them making that choice.
Very unsure of why you’re bringing up salary. Firstly, doctors don’t get a “salary” in most cases, they bill provincial insurers. Secondly, a large chunk of the gross billing goes to overhead.
All MDs are doctors, but not all doctors are MDs. “A dentist is a doctor specializing in the field of oral health, diagnosing and treating diseases that affect the gums and teeth”. They also have full prescribing ability for meds (even controlled substances) and can refer to other medical specialists and doctors. Dentists work in the ER of hospitals and have hospital privileges depending on their practice.
Nowhere did I state such a thing.
Perhaps you should stop and think for a minute if you need to resort to strawmen to attack my point.
And for the record, there are plenty of well off mentally ill drug addicts.
Your economic situation does not define you, your character does.
no but i’m not a health care professional making 200k to take care of people’s dental health. if they hate sick people so much maybe don’t work in the health care industry?
1. how much of that 200K is take home pay and how much of it gets eaten up by costs the of running a business?
2. Not dating women with short hair does not mean i don't like women. Not wanting to work in a dangerous environment and not wanting to get paid less money for doing more work has nothing to do with "hating sick people".
Then why didn't you become a doctor or dentist? Oh that's right you think other people need to sacrifice not you. You want other people to have to sacrifice so you can get the benefit.
Not sure what planet you're on, but IME, the most competent dentists who were ethical (only did necessary work, explained their rationale, didn't overcharge) had some of the most run-down and bare bones offices in not so fancy areas.
The dentists in swanky buildings, with espresso machines, tvs and fancy websites? Poor workmanship, constant overbilling of insurance and the bitchiest reception staff I've yet encountered in a medical setting.
> The dentists in swanky buildings, with espresso machines, tvs and fancy websites? Poor workmanship, constant overbilling of insurance and the bitchiest reception staff I've yet encountered in a medical setting.
mechanics for teeth
Been with my dentist for 30 years now (in Vancouver), extremely nice office, in an expensive area, extremely nice staff, does not over charge. Super easy direct billing to insurance. Even when I didn't have insurance for a year when I was a unemployed, it was not prohibitively expensive.
Really depends on the dentist. Before I had benefits fresh out of highschool my dentist let me make small monthly payments without interest. He genuinely cared more about me having good oral health. I believe there is an issue with the billing and paperwork involved why most are choosing to opt out.
And many of the extensive dental issues aren't covered except for dentures, pulling teeth and really basic dentistry. Everything complicated requires preauths. And yeah, if your waiting room is full of poor hygiene addicts you will lost the 5K a tooth dental implant people.
You’d think someone who went to med school would be smart enough to understand the pros of making preventative tooth maintenance more easily accessible for these people, and how that would actually reduce the workload in the future. But maybe they skipped that part or something.
What makes you think dentists went to med school? Just because they take some of the same classes in the first two years of school to save money for the educational system is in no way the same education and training. It’s harder to get into the md program, the residency and fellowship after adds another 5-10 years before md are out practicing. So there is an element of self sacrifice and you know what you are signing up for when you go into medicine. Dentists have a pretty fundamentally different mindset from doctors. They are professionals like lawyers. And there is nothing wrong with that. It’s a stable job with a great income, and the proportion of dentists who want the serve people out of altruism is probably the same as lawyers. Again, nothing wrong with that.
I mean I think any level of school would mean they were hopefully capable of critical thinking. You shouldn’t need to go to school to understand that regular oil changes are better than waiting for your engine to fail, but what do I know lol
The difference is that medical doctors have their practice insurance covered by the government.
Dentists don't have that.
If you're going to bring them under the umbrella of universal health coverage, they should have the same benefits.
Not saying that plenty of dentists aren't sleazy and don't overcharge for procedures. That is a separate issue.
Do you not see a difference between the price for health care and the price for a chocolate bar?
Should only wealthy people be able to get cavities filled or root canals performed?
Government subsidizes many food industries to keep prices low. They also run food banks and don’t charge tax on most food items.
Government provides subsidized housing to low income Canadians.
Cars aren’t a necessity so it’s ridiculous to compare them to health care.
Gasoline prices are regulated in many provinces.
i know much much the food is going to cost before i buy it. the dentist bills out afterwards for whatever they feel like. did I really get 3.5 units of scaling? whose to say.
Right, because only meth addicts have dental issues. 🤡
I’ve never had a cavity in my life. My wife has had tons of cavities despite brushing her teeth (with an electric toothbrush) after every meal and flossing every day. She just has soft teeth due to genetics. She has never smoked meth, either.
Healthcare is a, pardon my French, fucking right, that's why. Government regulates the price of utilities and health care related products. They have for a very long time. They're not going to regulate the price of a laptop because not everyone needs laptops.
they can move to somewhere with a "free market" see how that works out for them.
Edit:" wHy DoN'T YoU MOvE To A SoCiaLIst COunTry"
is that supposed to be some sort of slam dunk or something? can you people even name an actual socialist country and not one that american media keeps telling you is socialist?
I did move to a country with a free market for Dentists, and it's awesome.
Be careful what you wish for.
If Doctors and Nurses do the same and "move elsewhere" where they can make much more money, what are you going to be left with?
You are still going to pay high taxes but the line up for those services will just get longer and longer.
yea I'd love to, there's plenty of examples who are running their systems with well regulated and citizen focused legislation.
Like don't tempt me with a good time bud.
I'll move there and you can move to America and see what it's like to pay for primary healthcare,.
In Calgary they almost have to and advertise the gov't rate in their flyers and on their websites. Elective and cosmetic procedures aside like whitening and most veneers.
My dentist went on a rant when I jokes about it. Perfect time because she’s in my mouth and I can’t talk so she may as well talk. Turns out it barely covers and when eligible people come and extra work is needed they have to pay so they think the dentist is a crook, but it’s the government plan that just doesn’t cover.
I like how people are just ignoring that the government deliberately spread misinformation and instead just deflecting about dental fees.
Regardless of how you feel about dental coverage and compensation, the government wanted to spread a bullshit lie. How this doesn’t disgust more people baffles me.
Makes you wonder what else they are gaslighting us on?
This little nugget was from 2019.
[TorontoSun](https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/goldstein-screeched-in-mckenna-commits-a-classic-political-gaffe)
Not sure the public gave much then either.
Savage.
"“There has been zero pressure, really, from the Conservatives on us in any kind of fashion that would result in the low uptake of dentists registering for the program,” said Dr. Robert Wolanski, president of the British Columbia Dental Association.
“The misinformation that has been provided has been provided almost solely by … the Liberal government and the NDP,” Wolanski said, of a program that was born out of the minority Liberals’ parliamentary alliance with the New Democrats. "
*”The misinformation that has been provided has been provided almost solely by the Liberal government and the NDP.”*
I appreciate their courage to put this on record.
Their strategy for the next election is blisteringly obvious: “The evil Tories are going to take away these amazing freebies we gave you and destroy health care forever.”
So they can’t have experts coming along and explaining that the programs are broken, woefully (or not at all) implemented and help practically nobody, can they?
Every party engages fear, and the Liberals definitely will use this. And even provincial health insurance covered dental pays 1990 rates. I just had real dental surgery done at a hospital and I didn't qualify for provincial health insurance paying for it so I saw the cost of what I would luckily submit to my work dental coverage. My coffee allowance from each paycheque was bigger.
I don't have all the answers, but I know my dental surgeon should get more than the cost of two cases of beer and a hamburger for the intense 30 minutes of work he and his assistant did for me.
wow, a special interest group that exists to maximize income for dentists are opposed to publicly funded dental care?shocker. y’all will support people actively working against you if they say negative things about the liberals.
Professional trade associations start getting called special interest groups all willy nilly like they're just regular lobbyists.
Some provinces have it as a requirement that all licensed dentists to be members. The dental associations do a lot more than existing to maximize income. They also aim to maximize best practices, patient safety, adoption on technology, and continuing education.
Yeah, I'd also trust them more than Mark Holland
There was no plan.
The plan was write a cheque to people who make below a certain threshold and claiming it's somehow related to dental benefits?
It was the exact same plan as their grocery rebate -- write a cheque.
It reminds me of the Trump quote that was mocked when he said "Nobody knew healthcare was so complicated." They aren't capable of coming up with a plan because it's complicated so they just write cheques instead. That makes people happy in the short term but you can't run a country like that forever.
>The plan was write a cheque to people who make below a certain threshold and claiming it's somehow related to dental benefits?
Oh so you can get money from this plan without getting dental work done?
Neo Keynesianism.
Keynes wasn't in favour of endless deficit spending outside of recessions.
Saybwhat you want about Keynes, but he wasn't a complete dummy
Liberals seem to have forgotten they haven't been voted out yet when they're going full force with the blame every government failing on conservatives strategy.
You have to remember that “lie and blame the Conservatives even when it’s blisteringly obvious we’re the ones who fucked up” has been so successful for them to date they have no reason not to continue doing it. Their supporters lap it up every time.
Love how the article is pointing out lies and disinformation by the liberals and NDP and the reasons why dentists aren’t on board. But the liberal NDP die hards decide to ignore it and spread more lies and disinformation.
\*"“\****There has been zero pressure, really, from the Conservatives*** *on us in any kind of fashion that would result in the low uptake of dentists registering for the program,” said Dr. Robert Wolanski, president of the British Columbia Dental Association.“****The misinformation that has been provided has been provided almost solely by … the Liberal government and the NDP****,” Wolanski said".*
So, the Liberals, who claimed the Conservatives were phoning and bullying dentists to not sign up for the program were bold-face lying. What a surprise.
[https://archive.is/p33Nf#selection-4287.0-4293.130](https://archive.is/p33Nf#selection-4287.0-4293.130)
My own dentist and my kids dentist will not be signing up.
I've been going to my dentist for 20+ years now, and the kids theirs since they were born. We have good rapport. I throw my dentist excess MLL passes and he gives me video game purchasing tips. It's casual but we're not friends.
Both have told me the numerous reasons they won't be signing up. A lot boils down to commitments hurting their existing customers, some of which they'd potentially have to drop to make room to comply with this program, and the reporting requirements are absurd.
You know your reporting is broken when people used to dealing with insurance companies multiple dozens of times a day go "wait. This paperwork is too much overhead".
I never dug into the specifics myself, but both are partners in a practice that has grown over those 20 years from as single chair to teams of dentists and hygienists
I work along side dentists (I'm a lab tech and make the dental appliances) and our doctors biggest concern is reimbursement rates from insurance companies. We are in a lower income city already and wait times can be up to 6 months just to even hear back. Sometimes it's a 1 year wait for reimbursement to the office.
If insurance companies would get off their asses and provide the services people pay for rather than spending more time finding ways not to provide the services, practitioners would be more onboard. This could be said across the board with all insurance companies really.
Liberals are the party of huge spending and low taxes, scamming citizens that none of the waste needs to ever be paid back.
The original shameless MMT party, scamming citizens since inception.
maybe this wouldn't happen if the Canada Health Act treated doctors better
no health professional will agree to be part of some nationalized program after seeing what governments have done to doctors
There's also a clause when dental offices sign up that says the government can change the terms of the program at any time. My office is opting out and won't be direct billing for CDCP patients in July when any office can take those patients, regardless if they have signed up or not. (Says the dentist I work for, I don't know all the specifics.)
Was doomed to failure due to the way the rules were laid out, dictating rates to be paid also those that have or qualify for insurance are not included, I have insurance through my retirement plan that I am compelled to pay for, both my age and income makes me qualified for the federal dental plan but I cannot get due to having insurance or qualify for, this for many federal and provincial retirees is a rip off and is expensive
People are going to be surprised at how much the plan doesn't cover. Like any more than 4 dental scaling units per year needs a preauth. My plan has 18 units allowed per year. If you lose a tooth a bridge isn't covered. If you need a crown lengthening for a crown, that isn't covered. Then you have income limits that make no sense when you are into regular families, not taking into consideration family size. So $1 over the limit and you get a huge copayment. If you have a really bad work plan you can't opt out so you end up paying more out of pocket than people who don't have the plan. It's a dog's breakfast of a plan.
The Star setting the record straight.
Guess they're done playing for Team Liberal.
To Trudeau and the Liberal Party of Canada: Stop blaming everyone else for your inadequacies.
Who would have thought a liberal/NDP coalition would result in really bad policy? The end result of blaming the Conservatives for said bad policy just completes the story.
After lies spreading like **[here](https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/trudeau-minister-accuses-tories-of-bullying-dental-associations-into-rejecting-national-program/article_df42f570-2d9f-11ef-9c73-87d7abfeb7cf.html)**, and **[here](https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/health-minister-accuses-conservatives-of-trying-to-sabotage-federal-dental-program-1.6931669)**
Yeah this is not happening in Alberta, where the Cons might have the most ability to put pressure on the ADA. Can speak for other provinces, but our President and now the B.C. President have both been clear that the resistance to the plan is not based in Conservative political pressure.
Remember teeth are luxury bones.
Break your arm? We'll take care of that.
Break a molar? Nope.
Also remember teeth are *essential* to overall health and well being.
If its specifically about health. Why don't they cover all medically necessary extractions to start?
Why are some people walking around with broken molars that literally need to be extracted for medical reasons, and they are not covered. While others are basically fine, and are covered for a clean and polish?
How does that make sense? The implementation is dogshit.
People in this thread are so myopic that they don’t realize how much dentists make. I’ve seen dentists in the Montreal area clear $500K annually. You’ve got people making less than 10 times less than that defending dentists rights to fleece their patients.
Each dental provincial body has a fee schedule based upon data collected from hundreds of dental offices that are a statistical representative sample of all dental offices within their jurisdiction. Dental office costs for equipment, supplies, and staff, and the complexity of the procedure are all weighted factors. The provincial dental associations are open and transparent about the entire process utilized to create their respective fee schedules.
The Federal government created the CDCP with a fee schedule much lower than the existing provincial fee
schedules. The federal government has refused to disclose what mechanisms were used to create and justify the CDCP fee schedule. Like - whose ass did you pull this document out of?
Some procedure remuneration is 50% of the existing provincial fee schedule. With office typically running at 70% overhead - these procedures are a loss for the office. This doesn’t even take into account the additional onerous clerical duties required for claims submissions.
This is more complex than simply “greedy dentist - bad”.
The main issue is that the program is not finished. They are still chopping and changing the the actual black and white rules. Claims portal is only going to be completed in July. The billing appeals process is still not outlined at all.
If a dentist has a full roster, why would they rush to sign up to something that still isn't settled and that can change next week. Would you sign up with a car insurance provider who says pay now but trust me ill figure out the claims process in a couple of months.
Its par for the course for this government, make big announcements for a program launch but fail to actually square away the details with the actual people who are supposed to be delivering the program. Its the same reason why the $10/day daycare rollout was so slow, some very important details were vague and daycares didn't want to sign on to something that wasn't clear.
This isn’t a fee schedule question.
The Liberals have claimed that the Conservatives are threatening and intimidating dentists, the dental associations are saying that’s not true and that the Liberals are not being clear about the program and not answering questions. Then the Liberals say they don’t understand the issues the dental associations have, so which scenario is more likely?
A policy was rushed out, they’re not getting the blind and immediate acceptance they wanted, so it has to be someone else and not the policy that’s to blame right?
I dunno, I think paying $1500 for a crown is reasonable considering the years of schooling, the risk of starting your own business, and the overhead costs.
It's amazing how Canadians demand so much yet never want to pay for what something is worth. It's the biggest systemic problem the country faces and it permeates into everything. Defence spending, health care spending, social safety net expenses etc.
I’m a dentist and the politicians running this have been consistently high-handed and uncommunicative with us. They’ve alienated the profession over simple stuff like balance-billing, pre-determination and attempting to get us to sign a one-sided contract, to name just three. I’ll be accepting existing patients from next month, but if they nickel and dime on denying claims, or make it a bureaucratic nightmare I’m off. And this comes from someone that treats disability and welfare patients at a loss because social contract etc. I hate to call someone dishonest without meeting them, but I think Holland’s a bit economical with the actualite.
I am also a dentist and 100% agree with you. I have similar plans in place. Also, I unironically think your username is hilarious in this context :)
I held a regional dental association dinner at my restaurant about 3 years ago. It was a buyout and I have an open concept kitchen. So I heard what was on the table for discussions that night. These guys DID NOT want to partake in this stuff.
Anyone can see how family docs are treated by the government. Not surprised dentists want nothing to do with that
Family docs didn’t want universal healthcare either. There were huge protests at the time. But can you imagine if we didn’t?
They just don’t want to have to regulate their prices.
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The PEI Dental Association said it wasn't the people, it was the expected paperwork that they were opposed to: basically 30 minutes of unpaid paperwork for every hour or two per government funded patient. Over a year that adds up to a lot of unpaid work that dentists will be expected to fulfill. But also, unfortunately, low socio-economics groups tend to take much less care of their teeth than wealthier groups. If you've seen the tartar removal nightmare videos, you can start to get an idea of how awful it is for a dentist to clean that and also know they'll have an hour of unpaid paperwork to fill to get reimbursed by the government in who knows how long.
Those lower socioeconomic classes don't take as good care of their teeth because they can't afford access to dental care.
Low executive function is also pretty heavily associated with being in a lower socioeconomic class, regardless of if it's their fault
Avoiding excess sugar, drinking lots of water, and basic brushing of teeth go a long, long way - regardless of your net worth.
Avoiding excess sugar is the biggest challenge, as is brushing teeth. Low socioeconomic status people generally can't afford things that allow them to save money in the long run, like refrigerators, bulk rice/potatoes storage, cooking them, etc... so they have to defer to very crappy fast food options that are high in sugar and sodium. Then there's the whole, you are what you eat. If you eat shit food, you tend to feel shitty. Being low socioeconomic status is running a race with a ball and chain attached to your ankles when you're competing against someone who has access to food security, and running water. Let's remove tooth brushing from this equation, right now. The fucked up part is, the CPC want to stop kids from getting at least ONE good meal a day at schools - which would allow those kids to fucking calorie load like bandits, on nutritious food.
We can't remove tooth brushing from the equation, and tooth brushing (and to a lower extend flossing and using mouthwash) is a big factor in dental health, and it's accessible to virtually everyone regardless of socioeconomic status. I'm also not sure why you mentioned running water, as just about everyone regardless of their socioeconomic status has access to running water.
TBH beyond basic fillings most of my benefits claims take over an hour of admin work on my side. I usually have to stay on hold for over 30 minutes and arrange for extra documentation.
> basically 30 minutes of unpaid paperwork for every hour or two per government funded patient This sounds very grossly exaggerated and would love to see some sources on it, as it makes little sense. Maybe the very first time a patient has come to your office, to get them into the system. But there is absolutely no way it's taking 30 minutes of paperwork for operations if the person is already in your system. >But also, unfortunately, low socio-economics groups tend to take much less care of their teeth than wealthier groups. Hmm... wonder why this is... Could it be... because they can't afford dental care? Yes a lot have more mental issues and stresses that might result in less brushing or personal care. But having access to routine checkups/cleanings/repairs helps *prevent* most of the serious problems that would be a major pain to fix. Paperwork doesn't grow in size by the length of a procedure, in no world would that make any sense or someone even be able to come up with paperwork that would cause that. You fill out what operations were done, the client details, and you're done. >The PEI Dental Association said it wasn't the people Ah yes, trusting the people who want to maximize their profit at the expense of the health of the population to be honest about why they don't want socialized dental care... Sounds logical.
I’m not sure how dentists do their paperwork, but I’m sure if they have anything that’s similar to medicine then it’s a lot of work. Physicians need to write what they did during the visit, fill out billing info and some other add ons depending on standard of care requirements. It definitely does take extra time, even more so for the complicated procedures.
The problem or the concerns with the dental plan are not linked demographics. If the government paid the provincial fee guide for the plan, and didn’t try to dictate what is or isn’t eligible for coverage you would have 90-95% acceptance. This is akin to you already being busy enough at work, and your employer comes to you and says you are going to take this work, we are going to pay you less than you make right now, the patient is going to have unreasonable expectations, and there is a bunch more red tape and paper work. Why do you think people don’t want to sign up? It’s the same culture and core problem in medicine. Pay up or pay the market price and there won’t be problems.
Are YOU willing to work with people who have "poor hygiene, mental health problems, and addiction"?
Meth mouth. Why wouldn't dentists want to deal with unhinged meth heads? How selfish of them.
We aren't all meth heads, some of us have poor dental health in part due to depression.
Health Care is a human right here in Canada. Deal with it.
AWWWW POOR DENTISTS HAVING TO POTENTIALLY DEAL WITH COMPLEX LOWER SOCIOECONOMIC PATIENTS AND TONS OF PAPERWORK!!! WAAAAAAH.. Sorry, I’m a GP… welcome to my life.. In all seriousness? I don’t dislike all dentists. I’m quite fond of my dentist and previous dentists. I don’t really have much faith in provincial governments or the federal government running things in this country, so I do understand the frustration from dentists. And I certainly don’t agree with some of my GP colleagues bashing dentists and telling them to “ suck it up you bunch of wusses who couldn’t make it to medical school ”( direct quote from a GP buddy at a party, unfortunately very harsh comment). Aghhh, it’s such a complex issue- I don’t know what to say..
I hear ya. The dentists have it good for such a long time or is it the family docs have it sucky for such a long time?
And which one do we currently have a shortage of, the ones who had it too good for too long, or the ones who haven't?
Dentists are doctors. Should other doctors just refuse to provide care?
7-11 has a "no shirt, no shoes, no service" sign at their entrance that they enforce. Should we challenge that at the supreme court?
7/11 cashiers don’t take the hippocratic oath.
Neither did the dentists, ha.
Please point out where in the hippocratic oath it states that you must serve everyone?
“I remain a member of society with special obligation to all my fellow human beings”
Must serve everyone for pennies...
Average doctor’s salary in Canada is $187,500. And that’s just a GP
Cool, I don't think it's been reported yet that anyone is going to the dentist without shirts or shoes
Happy reddit birthday
Wait, my dentist always makes me take off my shirt, is that not standard?
Didn't realize 7-11 started providing basic healthcare.
I didn't realize that Canadian education is failing at teaching metaphors, analogies, and basic comprehension in everyday conversation. Thanks for the heads up.
This isn't the dunk you think it is. An analogy only works if there are some shared properties/outcomes between the two that are relevant. Health care has a much more significant impact on society than what 7-11 does, and is a concept in itself not a specific business. A healthy society operates better and has less problems. More people getting access to health care improves everyone's lives. There is far too much depth to the issue for such a surface level "analogy" as that. 7-11 doesn't do anything significant or helpful, it's a neutral business that provides things you can get pretty much anywhere. Your comparison is like going "why should we have to wear helmets on motorcycles, should we force people to wear them while sitting in their home too??? take that libt*rd!"
The irony in this comment is fucking palpable
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And it's always like this.
It’s not an equivalent comparison. 7/11 is t providing life giving or emergency care
Do we even have a 7-11 in Canada?
Can confirm Ontario has many.
We do in BC, at least.
Ontario West has a bunch. Quebec probably doesn't because Circle-K/Couche-Tard is based there. It's not a language thing either, 7-11 is a Japanese company and is all over East and SEA as well as here.
No no. They should definitely be forced to do whatever the state wants /s Why can’t they just work themselves to death in poor conditions?!?
Do you think they won’t be able to set their own hours? The average GP’s salary is $187k per year in Canada.
My spouse is a doctor. I’m very well aware of the lifestyle. You definitely do not set your own hours, and you do not set the amount of work you get per day. If you’re setting your own hours, you are certianly leaving patients waiting, because there are far more patients than doctors to service them. You’re equating dentists to doctors. No dentist in their right mind would give up orderly office hours for the situation that is the public healthcare system, and there is nothing wrong with them making that choice. Very unsure of why you’re bringing up salary. Firstly, doctors don’t get a “salary” in most cases, they bill provincial insurers. Secondly, a large chunk of the gross billing goes to overhead.
My father is a GP, he absolutely sets his own hours at the clinic (he works full time but it’s from 9-5 Monday to Friday.
Not every doctor is a GP. Try talking to an emerge doc or a surgeon.
Dentists are not medical doctors.
All MDs are doctors, but not all doctors are MDs. “A dentist is a doctor specializing in the field of oral health, diagnosing and treating diseases that affect the gums and teeth”. They also have full prescribing ability for meds (even controlled substances) and can refer to other medical specialists and doctors. Dentists work in the ER of hospitals and have hospital privileges depending on their practice.
Every dentist is a doctor but not all doctors are dentists
Yes.
You are not the one I asked, but ok.
Yes.
I didn’t realize that lower income people were just mentally ill drug addicts. Interesting
Nowhere did I state such a thing. Perhaps you should stop and think for a minute if you need to resort to strawmen to attack my point. And for the record, there are plenty of well off mentally ill drug addicts. Your economic situation does not define you, your character does.
no but i’m not a health care professional making 200k to take care of people’s dental health. if they hate sick people so much maybe don’t work in the health care industry?
1. how much of that 200K is take home pay and how much of it gets eaten up by costs the of running a business? 2. Not dating women with short hair does not mean i don't like women. Not wanting to work in a dangerous environment and not wanting to get paid less money for doing more work has nothing to do with "hating sick people".
The average salary for a dentist in canada is 172k. That's salary, not business revenue. They are doing just fine.
Then why didn't you become a doctor or dentist? Oh that's right you think other people need to sacrifice not you. You want other people to have to sacrifice so you can get the benefit.
nothing to do with SES 100% to do with government being cheap
Not sure what planet you're on, but IME, the most competent dentists who were ethical (only did necessary work, explained their rationale, didn't overcharge) had some of the most run-down and bare bones offices in not so fancy areas. The dentists in swanky buildings, with espresso machines, tvs and fancy websites? Poor workmanship, constant overbilling of insurance and the bitchiest reception staff I've yet encountered in a medical setting.
> The dentists in swanky buildings, with espresso machines, tvs and fancy websites? Poor workmanship, constant overbilling of insurance and the bitchiest reception staff I've yet encountered in a medical setting. mechanics for teeth
Been with my dentist for 30 years now (in Vancouver), extremely nice office, in an expensive area, extremely nice staff, does not over charge. Super easy direct billing to insurance. Even when I didn't have insurance for a year when I was a unemployed, it was not prohibitively expensive.
Really depends on the dentist. Before I had benefits fresh out of highschool my dentist let me make small monthly payments without interest. He genuinely cared more about me having good oral health. I believe there is an issue with the billing and paperwork involved why most are choosing to opt out.
And many of the extensive dental issues aren't covered except for dentures, pulling teeth and really basic dentistry. Everything complicated requires preauths. And yeah, if your waiting room is full of poor hygiene addicts you will lost the 5K a tooth dental implant people.
You’d think someone who went to med school would be smart enough to understand the pros of making preventative tooth maintenance more easily accessible for these people, and how that would actually reduce the workload in the future. But maybe they skipped that part or something.
What makes you think dentists went to med school? Just because they take some of the same classes in the first two years of school to save money for the educational system is in no way the same education and training. It’s harder to get into the md program, the residency and fellowship after adds another 5-10 years before md are out practicing. So there is an element of self sacrifice and you know what you are signing up for when you go into medicine. Dentists have a pretty fundamentally different mindset from doctors. They are professionals like lawyers. And there is nothing wrong with that. It’s a stable job with a great income, and the proportion of dentists who want the serve people out of altruism is probably the same as lawyers. Again, nothing wrong with that.
I mean I think any level of school would mean they were hopefully capable of critical thinking. You shouldn’t need to go to school to understand that regular oil changes are better than waiting for your engine to fail, but what do I know lol
Way more to it than that. Daycares can't make changes to their systems now. Everything has to go through a beaurocrat whose just going to say "no"
They shouldn't have to.
You wanna keep getting peddled for $3k worth of teeth work when only $500 of it was actually needed?
Yes they goddamn should. Just like all the other doctors in Canada. Ffs the program is to provide dental care to kids!
The difference is that medical doctors have their practice insurance covered by the government. Dentists don't have that. If you're going to bring them under the umbrella of universal health coverage, they should have the same benefits. Not saying that plenty of dentists aren't sleazy and don't overcharge for procedures. That is a separate issue.
So why doesn't the gov't just regulate the price of everything then?
Fitting username
Do you not see a difference between the price for health care and the price for a chocolate bar? Should only wealthy people be able to get cavities filled or root canals performed?
Why doesn't the gov't regulate the cost of food? Housing? Cars and gasoline? You know, things less trivial than your cherry picked chocolate bar?
We have enough communists in government as it is. Don't give them more ideas.
> gasoline? We do in the maritimes.
They should
Government subsidizes many food industries to keep prices low. They also run food banks and don’t charge tax on most food items. Government provides subsidized housing to low income Canadians. Cars aren’t a necessity so it’s ridiculous to compare them to health care. Gasoline prices are regulated in many provinces.
i know much much the food is going to cost before i buy it. the dentist bills out afterwards for whatever they feel like. did I really get 3.5 units of scaling? whose to say.
Or you could stop the meth and brush your teeth.
Right, because only meth addicts have dental issues. 🤡 I’ve never had a cavity in my life. My wife has had tons of cavities despite brushing her teeth (with an electric toothbrush) after every meal and flossing every day. She just has soft teeth due to genetics. She has never smoked meth, either.
What a shitty comment, yikes.
Check out his comment history — most of his comments are in r/canadahousing2. I wasn’t surprised.
Healthcare is a, pardon my French, fucking right, that's why. Government regulates the price of utilities and health care related products. They have for a very long time. They're not going to regulate the price of a laptop because not everyone needs laptops.
they can move to somewhere with a "free market" see how that works out for them. Edit:" wHy DoN'T YoU MOvE To A SoCiaLIst COunTry" is that supposed to be some sort of slam dunk or something? can you people even name an actual socialist country and not one that american media keeps telling you is socialist?
I did move to a country with a free market for Dentists, and it's awesome. Be careful what you wish for. If Doctors and Nurses do the same and "move elsewhere" where they can make much more money, what are you going to be left with? You are still going to pay high taxes but the line up for those services will just get longer and longer.
Why don't you immigrate to a completely socialist country and see how that works out for you?
Something tells me that you don’t have the faintest clue about what “socialism” actually means.
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yea I'd love to, there's plenty of examples who are running their systems with well regulated and citizen focused legislation. Like don't tempt me with a good time bud. I'll move there and you can move to America and see what it's like to pay for primary healthcare,.
The 3 most iconic socialist countries: Germany 1939 China North korea
Lmao Nazis weren't socialist. Now list your 3 most iconic brain cells.
In Calgary they almost have to and advertise the gov't rate in their flyers and on their websites. Elective and cosmetic procedures aside like whitening and most veneers.
My dentist went on a rant when I jokes about it. Perfect time because she’s in my mouth and I can’t talk so she may as well talk. Turns out it barely covers and when eligible people come and extra work is needed they have to pay so they think the dentist is a crook, but it’s the government plan that just doesn’t cover.
You must overhear some interesting conversations at work!
They do not want their prices regulated. A lot of them charge over "book value" and that's the way they want to keep it.
I like how people are just ignoring that the government deliberately spread misinformation and instead just deflecting about dental fees. Regardless of how you feel about dental coverage and compensation, the government wanted to spread a bullshit lie. How this doesn’t disgust more people baffles me.
Because Conservative Bad
To be fair they certainly are
Makes you wonder what else they are gaslighting us on? This little nugget was from 2019. [TorontoSun](https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/goldstein-screeched-in-mckenna-commits-a-classic-political-gaffe) Not sure the public gave much then either.
Savage. "“There has been zero pressure, really, from the Conservatives on us in any kind of fashion that would result in the low uptake of dentists registering for the program,” said Dr. Robert Wolanski, president of the British Columbia Dental Association. “The misinformation that has been provided has been provided almost solely by … the Liberal government and the NDP,” Wolanski said, of a program that was born out of the minority Liberals’ parliamentary alliance with the New Democrats. "
It should be obvious to anyone that's the case. But there are plenty of people who just parrot what the governing party states as if it's always true.
Try convincing people that these same folks probably shouldn't be in charge of when and how much they debase our wealth.
Hey man, if we don't keep these guys in power the world is going to end, or something like that.
Who would have guessed the ndp would have tried to force their ideological demands onto a group they have no control over?
I dislike that some people replace “lies” with “misinformation”. If it’s lies, say it’s lies.
It’s called gaslighting and it’s the Liberals favourite tactic.
Justin Trudeau is a known anti-dentite
*”The misinformation that has been provided has been provided almost solely by the Liberal government and the NDP.”* I appreciate their courage to put this on record.
Their strategy for the next election is blisteringly obvious: “The evil Tories are going to take away these amazing freebies we gave you and destroy health care forever.” So they can’t have experts coming along and explaining that the programs are broken, woefully (or not at all) implemented and help practically nobody, can they?
Every party engages fear, and the Liberals definitely will use this. And even provincial health insurance covered dental pays 1990 rates. I just had real dental surgery done at a hospital and I didn't qualify for provincial health insurance paying for it so I saw the cost of what I would luckily submit to my work dental coverage. My coffee allowance from each paycheque was bigger. I don't have all the answers, but I know my dental surgeon should get more than the cost of two cases of beer and a hamburger for the intense 30 minutes of work he and his assistant did for me.
wow, a special interest group that exists to maximize income for dentists are opposed to publicly funded dental care?shocker. y’all will support people actively working against you if they say negative things about the liberals.
Yet I still trust them more than I trust Mark Holland.
Professional trade associations start getting called special interest groups all willy nilly like they're just regular lobbyists. Some provinces have it as a requirement that all licensed dentists to be members. The dental associations do a lot more than existing to maximize income. They also aim to maximize best practices, patient safety, adoption on technology, and continuing education. Yeah, I'd also trust them more than Mark Holland
This is why we should NEVER let the government decide what is and what isn't misinformation.
You better hope whoever they make the overseer of C-63 doesn't dislike that statement.
Misinformation is a slippery term. I don't like to use it at all. I'd rather use simple words like "Truth, facts" and "Falsehoods, lies".
Hold on a second. You mean the Liberal strategy to “blame the conservatives” for their failing dental plan was embarrassingly stupid? Say it ain’t so.
There was no plan. The plan was write a cheque to people who make below a certain threshold and claiming it's somehow related to dental benefits? It was the exact same plan as their grocery rebate -- write a cheque. It reminds me of the Trump quote that was mocked when he said "Nobody knew healthcare was so complicated." They aren't capable of coming up with a plan because it's complicated so they just write cheques instead. That makes people happy in the short term but you can't run a country like that forever.
>The plan was write a cheque to people who make below a certain threshold and claiming it's somehow related to dental benefits? Oh so you can get money from this plan without getting dental work done?
Fully unfunded of course, despite ballooning debt. Is this Keynesian?
Neo Keynesianism. Keynes wasn't in favour of endless deficit spending outside of recessions. Saybwhat you want about Keynes, but he wasn't a complete dummy
Liberals seem to have forgotten they haven't been voted out yet when they're going full force with the blame every government failing on conservatives strategy.
You have to remember that “lie and blame the Conservatives even when it’s blisteringly obvious we’re the ones who fucked up” has been so successful for them to date they have no reason not to continue doing it. Their supporters lap it up every time.
>“blame the conservatives” Listen, pal. Lisa needs braces. And where's my burrito?!
Geniuses ahead of their time and didn't even know it.
Waiting for people to claim that dentists are just greedy people who do not deserve to charge what they charge.
Love how the article is pointing out lies and disinformation by the liberals and NDP and the reasons why dentists aren’t on board. But the liberal NDP die hards decide to ignore it and spread more lies and disinformation.
Sort by controversial and it's all there. > Dentists don't want to be held to a reasonable fee schedule.
Lots of those claims around, haven't you seen them yet?
\*"“\****There has been zero pressure, really, from the Conservatives*** *on us in any kind of fashion that would result in the low uptake of dentists registering for the program,” said Dr. Robert Wolanski, president of the British Columbia Dental Association.“****The misinformation that has been provided has been provided almost solely by … the Liberal government and the NDP****,” Wolanski said".* So, the Liberals, who claimed the Conservatives were phoning and bullying dentists to not sign up for the program were bold-face lying. What a surprise. [https://archive.is/p33Nf#selection-4287.0-4293.130](https://archive.is/p33Nf#selection-4287.0-4293.130)
My own dentist and my kids dentist will not be signing up. I've been going to my dentist for 20+ years now, and the kids theirs since they were born. We have good rapport. I throw my dentist excess MLL passes and he gives me video game purchasing tips. It's casual but we're not friends. Both have told me the numerous reasons they won't be signing up. A lot boils down to commitments hurting their existing customers, some of which they'd potentially have to drop to make room to comply with this program, and the reporting requirements are absurd. You know your reporting is broken when people used to dealing with insurance companies multiple dozens of times a day go "wait. This paperwork is too much overhead". I never dug into the specifics myself, but both are partners in a practice that has grown over those 20 years from as single chair to teams of dentists and hygienists
I work along side dentists (I'm a lab tech and make the dental appliances) and our doctors biggest concern is reimbursement rates from insurance companies. We are in a lower income city already and wait times can be up to 6 months just to even hear back. Sometimes it's a 1 year wait for reimbursement to the office. If insurance companies would get off their asses and provide the services people pay for rather than spending more time finding ways not to provide the services, practitioners would be more onboard. This could be said across the board with all insurance companies really.
Liberals and gaslighting misinformation blaming the Conservatives. Name a more iconic duo.
How can you leave out dentists. A scammy trio Spider-Man meme lol
lol true
Why does our government lie to us so much?
Truth is irrelevant and usually more expensive.
They don't care about it costing money, they care about it costing them votes.
Unfortunately, misinformation over action has been a hallmark of this government.
They’ve been doing so for 9 years and winning, until voters smarten up why wouldn’t they?
9 years? They've been lying for decades.
Liberals are the party of huge spending and low taxes, scamming citizens that none of the waste needs to ever be paid back. The original shameless MMT party, scamming citizens since inception.
They think we won’t notice. They think they just need to talk about abortion and gay marriage and they’ll be set
Mark Holland excels at it.
maybe this wouldn't happen if the Canada Health Act treated doctors better no health professional will agree to be part of some nationalized program after seeing what governments have done to doctors
My dentists office said it was about privacy and having to just hand over records to Sunlife at any request.
There's also a clause when dental offices sign up that says the government can change the terms of the program at any time. My office is opting out and won't be direct billing for CDCP patients in July when any office can take those patients, regardless if they have signed up or not. (Says the dentist I work for, I don't know all the specifics.)
Damnnnnnn it Stephen Harper strikes again! /S
Good for them. Thats all the liberal do is provide misinformation or half truths say like the capital gains tax as well
We now have a dental and pharmacare program that is useless to %99.9 of Canadians. Great work guys! You did it!
Liberals stay taking some of the most embarrassing Ls. This is hilarious.
Getting outed by the lobbying groups you gave a gov benefits program to is embarrassing 😳
When all the doctors, young people and immigrants side with the conservatives \*in Canada\*, you know Liberal party is cooked
Caveman lookin ass proving yet again he's woefully under qualified for the job of health minister.
Was doomed to failure due to the way the rules were laid out, dictating rates to be paid also those that have or qualify for insurance are not included, I have insurance through my retirement plan that I am compelled to pay for, both my age and income makes me qualified for the federal dental plan but I cannot get due to having insurance or qualify for, this for many federal and provincial retirees is a rip off and is expensive
The % reduction in gross revenue being slightly above net income % shows some malice
Liberals are cooked
People are going to be surprised at how much the plan doesn't cover. Like any more than 4 dental scaling units per year needs a preauth. My plan has 18 units allowed per year. If you lose a tooth a bridge isn't covered. If you need a crown lengthening for a crown, that isn't covered. Then you have income limits that make no sense when you are into regular families, not taking into consideration family size. So $1 over the limit and you get a huge copayment. If you have a really bad work plan you can't opt out so you end up paying more out of pocket than people who don't have the plan. It's a dog's breakfast of a plan.
The Star setting the record straight. Guess they're done playing for Team Liberal. To Trudeau and the Liberal Party of Canada: Stop blaming everyone else for your inadequacies.
Who would have thought a liberal/NDP coalition would result in really bad policy? The end result of blaming the Conservatives for said bad policy just completes the story.
I'm just curious if people who advocate for single payer healthcare are willing to give up their current dental plans for a single-payer dental care
I would do it
Tomorrow's news: Dental groups were setup by Stephen Harper's government and are full of far right bad people
After lies spreading like **[here](https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/trudeau-minister-accuses-tories-of-bullying-dental-associations-into-rejecting-national-program/article_df42f570-2d9f-11ef-9c73-87d7abfeb7cf.html)**, and **[here](https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/health-minister-accuses-conservatives-of-trying-to-sabotage-federal-dental-program-1.6931669)**
Yeah this is not happening in Alberta, where the Cons might have the most ability to put pressure on the ADA. Can speak for other provinces, but our President and now the B.C. President have both been clear that the resistance to the plan is not based in Conservative political pressure.
My dentist literally said he’d buy me a beer and do my next filling for free if I hit Trudeau with a tomato
So suprising the libs continue to lie about everything
Remember teeth are luxury bones. Break your arm? We'll take care of that. Break a molar? Nope. Also remember teeth are *essential* to overall health and well being.
If its specifically about health. Why don't they cover all medically necessary extractions to start? Why are some people walking around with broken molars that literally need to be extracted for medical reasons, and they are not covered. While others are basically fine, and are covered for a clean and polish? How does that make sense? The implementation is dogshit.
I like your username lol
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People in this thread are so myopic that they don’t realize how much dentists make. I’ve seen dentists in the Montreal area clear $500K annually. You’ve got people making less than 10 times less than that defending dentists rights to fleece their patients.
So, become a dentist then. Make bank. Sounds easy.
Dentists don't want to be held to a reasonable fee schedule.
Each dental provincial body has a fee schedule based upon data collected from hundreds of dental offices that are a statistical representative sample of all dental offices within their jurisdiction. Dental office costs for equipment, supplies, and staff, and the complexity of the procedure are all weighted factors. The provincial dental associations are open and transparent about the entire process utilized to create their respective fee schedules. The Federal government created the CDCP with a fee schedule much lower than the existing provincial fee schedules. The federal government has refused to disclose what mechanisms were used to create and justify the CDCP fee schedule. Like - whose ass did you pull this document out of? Some procedure remuneration is 50% of the existing provincial fee schedule. With office typically running at 70% overhead - these procedures are a loss for the office. This doesn’t even take into account the additional onerous clerical duties required for claims submissions. This is more complex than simply “greedy dentist - bad”.
The main issue is that the program is not finished. They are still chopping and changing the the actual black and white rules. Claims portal is only going to be completed in July. The billing appeals process is still not outlined at all. If a dentist has a full roster, why would they rush to sign up to something that still isn't settled and that can change next week. Would you sign up with a car insurance provider who says pay now but trust me ill figure out the claims process in a couple of months. Its par for the course for this government, make big announcements for a program launch but fail to actually square away the details with the actual people who are supposed to be delivering the program. Its the same reason why the $10/day daycare rollout was so slow, some very important details were vague and daycares didn't want to sign on to something that wasn't clear.
This isn’t a fee schedule question. The Liberals have claimed that the Conservatives are threatening and intimidating dentists, the dental associations are saying that’s not true and that the Liberals are not being clear about the program and not answering questions. Then the Liberals say they don’t understand the issues the dental associations have, so which scenario is more likely? A policy was rushed out, they’re not getting the blind and immediate acceptance they wanted, so it has to be someone else and not the policy that’s to blame right?
I dunno, I think paying $1500 for a crown is reasonable considering the years of schooling, the risk of starting your own business, and the overhead costs. It's amazing how Canadians demand so much yet never want to pay for what something is worth. It's the biggest systemic problem the country faces and it permeates into everything. Defence spending, health care spending, social safety net expenses etc.
>Dentists don't want to be held to a reasonable fee schedule. People want to be paid for their work. I know this is a novel concept for Liberals.