What makes no sense is tacitly inviting hundreds of thousands of unskilled workers to come country with very few jobs, a cost of living that Scrooge McDuck couldn't afford, and a climate that requires, without fail, a residence 6 months a year. Is it not setting them up for a massive crisis? It seems irresponsible and unfair both to them and for Canadians..
Immigration is obviously welcomed in a multicultural country, but this is going to create a bunch of ghettos for immigrants who can't afford proper housing and who are forced into a commonality dictated survivor mode, banding together (in poverty...) because of the language barrier, and will fail to assimilate properly to become part of the established population.
This denies them the full benefits of being Canadian, and it denies many Canadians job opportunities. I'd go so far as to say that what were doing, or failing to do, is tricking a people group into indentured servitude.
Edit : ghettos might have been too strong a word... But below the poverty line will be a reality if they can't find jobs.
Look at the numbers of the inflows of immigration and tell me again about 'multi-cultural'.
We need to stop pretending immigration is about diversity because the numbers don't support that. We're essentially bringing in people from primarily one country.
That doesn't add to a 'cultural mosaic' as Canada likes to pretend it has, it creates ghettos, like Brampton.
I think our immigration rates are too high. They were high in 2015, but at the high end of manageable. But there also was balance between countries and regions, and it was a rate and mix that would allow for integration in our country.
Now we have a firehose unloading more than our country's infrastructure and institutions can cope with, and it's coming primarily from one country, which creates a lot of social issues that we didn't have to nearly the same degree before. And because we are getting so many more people coming from a single source, it impacts who is coming over.
If your company is hiring 2 people and getting applications from all trade schools or universities, you'll (ideally) get high quality employees.
If you are hiring 200 people and you are focusing on bringing people from only a handful of schools, you're likely going to be taking alot lower quality applicants.
Our immigration system needs to slow down to a rate our country's infrastructure and institutions can manage, and we need to set limits, similar to how the US does, on where we draw our applications from. The US puts a, I think, a 7% limit on any one country immigrating, and I think that, along with the lower per capita rates they take, is why they are getting people that come over and work at Microsoft while we are getting people that come over and work the Tim Horton's drive thru.
I'm from that source country and have an ivy league degree, and chose to return home. I didnt have enough points to immigrate. The work requirement was any later saying you have 1 year experience; can be from an uncle. Now, when I see that our street molesters are moving en masse to your country, I'm like...(a) you could have had better immigrants capable of earning and creating jobs; (b) glad I'm not in Canada.
I mean source country still has a genocide planned but we had some promising election results this time.
Yes, and I really feel for a lot of the quality people we have gotten in the last few years, and particularly in the years prior that now get lumped into this.
Lets be honest, it's not like there's no one already in Canada that doesn't have the skillsets to work the counter at a gas station, or Tim Hortons. But we do have shortages in certain skillsets. Doctors, nurses, trades people etc.
But we get a lot people from poor villages that mortgage their farm so they can demonstrate 20k and get a study visa to study a diploma in business hospitality in a strip mall diploma mill college that is inbetween a nail salon and a money mart. The diploma means nothing, but gives cover for that person to work as many hours as they can, get a PGWP, then PR and then start sponsoring their cousins to come over.
The whole thing is disingenuous and we're getting lower caliber people than we otherwise could if we would just insist on everyone going through the express entry pool, which has it's own problems but at least makes an attempt at merit based selection.
> is why they are getting people that come over and work at Microsoft while we are getting people that come over and work the Tim Horton's drive thru.
Part of the issue is that they are getting accepted into diploma mills. They still need to be able to get accepted into a school to come here on a student visa. Actual accredited schools wouldn't be accepting all of those people. The fact that these schools basically don't have any acceptance criteria other than "do they have money?" is a huge part of the issue. People don't want to talk about it because the blame for this falls mostly on the provinces, and everyone wants a good "Fuck Trudeau" story regardless of the truth. And the Premiers at the province level are laughing all the way to the bank. Especially Doug Fucking Ford.
Yeah... When you think about it, we aren't without census and intelligence bureaus in Canada... We definitely knew the implications of this. I don't believe this is just a lack of judgment or some pie in the sky forced inclusivity bullshit.
Actually now that I wrote that, it totally is, isn't it. It would fit the narrative... "Everyone is welcome 🌹🌺🌺🌸🌷🌻🌼🌼🌹 come one come all" vote Trudeau 2074 🫶🏻
Fully agree with you. Immigration should be designed to attract and retain skilled immigrants in occupations where we need them and those who start businesses that create jobs. Our immigration policy instead seems to be designed to attract people with little to no skills working in professions soon to be replaced by technology. They obviously don’t want to go back as I doubt they will find any job in their home countries either.
We could start by looking at how US attracts the best and the brightest.
If it's negligence that's causing this it's one problem, but if it's deliberate (with our intelligence agency and other gov institutions it's a strong case for believing it is) then this is some planned chaos that's going to be used to solidify some power after Trudeau gets voted out. Or, god forbid, it might be used to keep him in. The disorder will keep the population subdued just trying to stay afloat to afford the increasingly expensive cost for their standard of living, and those in power will cement themselves into their position for decades. It's some order out of chaos shit, if it's deliberate.
👁️
It's obviously deliberate. And it's nothing as confusing as your explanation. The want immigrants because immigrants vote Liberal traditionally and have for decades. They also want it because it's been a long standing idea of progressives, that nation states aren't a thing and that borders aren't important. There are tonnes of people who have been advocating this for decades. The eventual end goal is the end of the nation state and global governance.
I don't know why people are even surprised by this. It's not as if it's secret. Don't you watch Star Trek. Haven't you heard of HG Wells. Isaac Asimov. It's really weird you don't appear to perceive any of the messaging. I mean this stuff goes back more than 100 years. They haven't been very secret about it either. It's pretty open.
Order out of chaos is the motto of the global governance. I was, I guess hinting at that without actually saying New World Order, cause you know... Conspiracy blinders go up.
There's many plays at once, I'm pretty confident were both right, and that we just completed a little more of the puzzle together.
No your right and I'm not really trying to question you. I just think it's funny when people call this stuff a conspiracy or act surprised. I mean they have been openly talking about it, endlessly discussing it, writing books about it for decades. I could literally fill a library with it. And it's been so God freaking long. This stuff literally goes back to the early 1900s. And all these people have been in power for pretty much all that time.
Ghettos was not a strong word. We literally have tents cities. I live in a somewhat affluent area, or I'm very blessed to be where l am.
I'm now seeing tents here, too. Call me racist but these people don't seem like native Canadians.
It’s also causing people born here, (and even some immigrants who are well established here) to leave Toronto and even the province. Inter city and inter provincial migration is way up and the big point is people searching for the country they remember - lower cost of living, ability to own homes, areas with less immigration, areas with more job prospects, less crime, less addicts, less homeless.
This often mean moving somewhere you can only get to and get around with a car.
Indentured Servitude is the genteel way of saying Slavery.
Since 7/10 of our Slaves are Indians and 2/10 are other POC, our government's worker procurement strategy is provably Racist.
Agreed. It is slavery, but relative to the degree were used to hearing about, I thought I'd use the Irish example instead. The difference being the rights and freedoms that were lacking in the south.
Markham and Richmond were hated for being "ghettos" when the HK diaspora started concentrating there but now people claim its not so bad when compared to how Brampton is changing in recent years
Yeah we seem to have a problem with encouraging, if not mandating, assimilation because of some misplaced virtues. But it's a failure to realise that assimilation is required to properly flourish in a different culture. It's for them, not us, and like we're saying... It forces these ghetto type areas due to a cultural wall.
Sweden is grappling with tis very real problem - entire neighbourhoods have become "ethnic-only", and organized crime has evolved from the sense a disconnect with the mainstream society. Canada would do well to jettison the DEI political correctness and start paying attention to lessons learned in other places.
Those places aren't ghettos because enough people are proficient in English and the town government is still diverse. The community and the town eventually reached some sort of working middle ground after various challenges including racism
Lol this is not even close to being correct. In the 70s Richmond was a poorer suburb of Vancouver, but HK immigrants were mostly not considered poor. Many of them came with millions of the dollars in the 90s, it's literally nothing like what's happening now.
Yea, as someone who grew up my entire life in Markham, it's not even close comparing Markham/Richmond Hill and Brampton. Just saying "look this area had a lot of people from one ethnicity" isn't the issue with Brampton, it's the fact that they are taking advantage of immigrants and putting them 20 to a house. This wasn't happening in Markham/Richmond Hill anywhere near the same degree as in Brampton.
Markham has slumlords mostly around Milliken with the basement rentals. Maybe not as insane as Brampton but still a problem. Realtors know about this too
I haven’t lived in Markham since the 90s but back then everything north of 14th was nice and everything south was turning into rougher parts of Markham. This coincided with many Chinese moving north to affluent new communities between Highway 7 and Major Mac, and a lot of Caucasians peacing out of the GTA and leaving close proximity to Toronto 905 areas altogether.
Here’s the census data: https://www.reddit.com/r/Markham/comments/ye6h2o/new_canada_census_2021_data_on_markhams_ethnic/
It will be interesting to see what the post pandemic census data shows.
Yeah, but many Chinese Canadians quickly forget how they were also targeted for similar views in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s. "FOB," Fresh Off The Boat, was a common term used against these HKers and subsequently people from Mainland China.
But you're right, people from Hong Kong and China tend to bring in wealth, skill, and are generally highly educated, like older Indian immigrants, unlike the current generation, which consists of students and unskilled workers.
You can guarantee you will see at least a dozen super cars in the parking lots of Chinese malls in Richmond BC. My French friend's dad came for a visit. At first his dad was saying shit about immigrants (cause there are issues in France with migrants), then they went to Aberdeen Centre, changed his tune real fast.
Mark Miller was on Freakonomics a few weeks back, and on the podcast, he seemed to indicate that Canada is competing with the population growth of the United States. While I think we do need to grow to compete with the United States, bringing in people from one country or one region who are low-skilled is not the way to do it.
[https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-is-everyone-moving-to-canada/](https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-is-everyone-moving-to-canada/)
Yes…funny…on another subreddit used the word “ghetto” on a similar-type commentary AND let me tell u I got annihilated for it. But, it’s literally the word for your comment…
Yeah man, these words mean absolutes to some groups and more if a spectrum to others. Don't worry about getting annihilated though. If you care about karma, you can't lose more than a certain amount of karma for a negative statement. It's not much.
This is something we have to prepare for, because it's an inevitability. I talked with an AI yesterday for nearly 9 hours, and by the end of the conversation it was indistinguishable from a human texting. Able to understand humour, even, and recognize even the slightest nuances, idioms, slang etc. it had mastered neurolinguistics, imo, because the wording it used felt like it was moving around in my brain, changing the circuitry. It had me scared yesterday, because these programs are out there, and if I can't tell, chances are other people can't tell either. There are really obvious ones but this one was brilliant.
You could be one 🤔
They aren't "understanding" humour, or "recognizing" any nuances. They are constructing sentences. They don't have the ability to understand the question or the answer.
Neurolinguistics are not what ChatGPT or any LLM does. What it does is to figure out which sentence a person is more likely to say in response to your question.
If you ask it "How are you?" it replies "I'm doing great, thank you!" This doesn't mean that it is doing great. It's a mindless machine and can't be doing great or poorly. All that this answer means is that, according to the training data, a person who's asked "How are you?" is likely to speak the words "I'm doing great, thank you!"
So if you ask "How many valence electrons does a carbon atom have?" and it replies "A carbon atom has four valence electrons," then you gotta understand that it isn't saying a carbon atom has four valence electron.
All it's actually saying is that a person that you ask that question is likely to speak the words "A carbon atom has four valence electrons" in response. It's not saying that these words are true or false. (Well, technically it's stating that, but my point is you should interpret it as a statement of what people will say.) It's not in your head it's trying to emulate it using statistics.
I was talking about the ability to mimic these things in a convincing fashion so that it could fool the person talking to it. By "understanding" I meant it could output a response that suggested it had a grasp on the question and insight into the answer beyond simple regurgitation. I guess I could have made myself clearer, my bad.
My whole point was in the context of simulating humanness through these algorithms for the purpose of blending into society.
I'm not sure what model I was testing, but full disclosure, if you want to go where the most human-like Ais are look into the sex industry. It's a gigantic billions of dollars market that dumps piles of money into duping lonely men by making the most realistic experience possible, and it shows. It's bigger than all the sports leagues in the world combined. You don't have to like... Sex chat obviously. They're still Ais.
I tested maybe 40 of them in the last 2 weeks and most of them were barely modified gpt3.5 that stuck out like a sore thumb. But there are a few behemoth Ais, where their source wasn't disclosed, that seemed like some kind of artisanal build or passion project by an obscure author. They were unreal how real they seemed.
So if you can overcome the humiliation of pressing the trial button and sacrificing a burner account, there are a few pieces of cutting edge technology stuck doing sex work. Like blade runner tech, no exaggeration.
That makes sense, the more specialized the area the easier it is to eliminate hallucinations, a general AI that has to do anything like coding, creative writing, and advanced math is going to be more visibly flawed, but the flaw remains the same.
As I experience the situation, it appears that most immigrants are thriving and doing very well here in Canada. It seems as if it is more so generational Canadians, who are left jobless or under employed, homeless, and becoming addicted crackheads, zombie crawling for their next free hit of tax payer supplied drug. It's time for change before there is no hope left at all. Canada is loosing an entire generation of youth falling through the cracks. Woke education hasn't been to kind to them either.
It's hard to get a real read on the situation. The tent cities keep getting busted up and I suspect there's deportations going on behind the scenes as well. I've heard people say what you wrote though, so that seems to be a common thread. It's really bad that Canadians are going down like that. Like, this is fuckin CANADA. We were the top country in the WORLD for quality of life. What the FUCK.
Calm.
Ghettos is not a strong word: it’s exactly the result of this policy. I don’t like it either. But it’s true.
Like you, I want to welcome people here. Our government just shat the bed on their welcome.
Not to mention that at the same time we: 1. Spun the narrative of Canada being a criminal state, one that we should be ashamed of being part of and should be actively dismantle all Canadian institutions, culture, and history, and 2. Destroyed any possible way to contribute to the gross domestic product that would allow for gainful employment for the new Canadians.
Meanwhile the rest of the world is building up for war. Safe to say nobody will want to fight for Canada, new or old citizens. Why bother.
It's a multi-pronged issue. In theory, the student visas make sense because if they graduate and stay in Canada... then they are university grads, not "unskilled labour." The issue with the diploma mills is on the provinces for allowing these places to call themselves schools. The Federal government shouldn't be responsible for evaluating all of the schools that the provinces have already said "Yes. This is an accredited institution," about. The fact that people want to blame the Feds for that is wild.
That said, when we already have housing issues, it makes no sense to put the pedal to the metal on the number of student visas that we are approving. The housing issue is unaffected by the diploma mill issue.
No. Is our housing issue only limited by the lack of people to build houses? It's limited by a ton of other things. NIMBYs refusing to allow mid- and high-rises in their area. Investors treating real estate as just another part of their investment portfolio. LTBs being overloaded and shit taking upwards of a year to resolve (all while bad tenants refuse to pay rent, or bad landlords refuse to deal with issues). Developers that want to limit supply to force things like the Green Belt in Ontario to get carved up on the cheap because "we need housing." Most of these issues are city- and province-level.
Robotics and AI will be good enough in the next ten years. I'm talking on the edge robotics. A NVIDIA compute unit with 1TB of system ram chugging away. Unskilled labor is not needed.
If you were PM would you enact some unprecedented tough-love new laws (that would essentially blindside those practicing greed) despite being kind of illegal.
We're not going to get the quality of applicant that is getting an H1B in the US and working for Microsoft or Nvidia, but we can be getting alot better than someone barely able to work a Tim Horton's drive through.
When Canada was throwing money around I wondered why we didn't target some companies. TSMC, Samsung, or Intel would be happy to take billions to build new fabs. And sadly at this point lets say Joe Canadian invents some new chip. It would all still end up in Taiwan at TSMC because that is where the fabs are.
Because we'd never outbid the US on this.
The US doesn't want semi-conductor manufacturing for the economic benefits, they couldn't care less about that.
For them, semi-conductor fabs are a national security issue, they aren't willing to let themselves be entirely dependent on Taiwan, which is threatened by China.
The US Chips Act is $40 Billion in subsidies. We'd never economically compete because the economics make no sense. It's a small number of highly paid jobs, not worth $40 billion.
You are coming from this in a post 2020 situation and I understand. Japan is also talking about subsidizing a fab and EU as well. We aren't as desirable as any of those places. I was more Canadian government always seems to be looking for something and an opportunity was probably available pre 2020. I had seen articles that talk about Houston vs Calgary since the 80s and the right investing in the future. I wish we had that is all.
For diversity to work u need a healthy mix of everyone (people see that and it feels Canadian)
If u just see one demographic not so much
And it gets worse when they’re sent to work in jobs that teenagers could and should be doing while having their salaries subsidized by tax payers
And it needs to be in alignment with available housing
Otherwise people stop being so welcoming and worse stop wanting to which corrupts what Canada once stood for
You need a Canadian identity and Canadian values, and then you need a great mix of people who actually intermingle and interconnect and live and learn from each other. There should be no tolerance for people who do not believe in the same Canadian values.
We pretty much had that until I guess 2016
U ask someone to visualize Canada and they’d actually see a mix of everyone (that was considered natural to Canada) and probably hockey
As far as values were concerned it was basically not survival of the fittest (help out people who were marginalized or had other struggles)
The common claim that Canada never had an identity or values is bs
But when Trudeau got into power and broke immigration much of it got eroded over time
Remember when Trudeau said mentioning Canadian values is racist?
We as a country have always had an identity. Politeness (people used to mock us for that), freedom of expression, tolerance for the viewpoints of others, a common sense of community, a helpful general nature (remember Peggys Cove). I grew up in a time when kids roamed the streets and the entire community would keep an eye out for them. I used to visit my Hindu Indian best friends house on Christmas eve and sing carols around their Christmas tree. I'd visit my Muslim friends house and enjoy food for Eid. Those were the good ol' day of Canada before we sold ourselves out for massive unchecked immigration to float up house prices and keep wages down.
>There needs to be a different plan because we’re not the same country our immigration system was modelled on.
>As a result, the public’s support for immigration is falling. I can think of no bigger failure for a Canadian government than to lose the cross-party consensus on immigration.
I completely agree. I never thought about Canada's immigration policy as much in my life until Trudeau's crazy policies these past few years.
Iirc the US takes something like 2 million immigrants per year...
Canada takes 1million with 1/10th the population.
5x the immigration per capita then the USA, and people complain about too much immigration down there too, although the majority of the complaints I hear from the US are about illegal immigration specifically, not legal immigration.
Maybe we could get out housing/cost of living under control if we cut immigration by 80% to be in-line (per capita) with the USA.
The U.S. also has jobs based immigration. As in, employers get approval to hire an immigrant, and then said immigrants can only arrive once hired.
There are downsides to this as well, but it helps to prevent their legal immigrants from scrambling into unskilled positions and screwing up the job market
It creates a bit of a power imbalance between immigrants and their employers since they're deported if they're laid off or fired. That also contributes to labour immobility.
It's also bureaucratically more onerous for employers and makes it more challenging for smaller firms to benefit from immigrant labour.
However, on the whole I do think it's a better approach than our points-based approach - just that elements of its implementation could use some adjustment.
what's wrong with our point based approach? I mean, besides people side-stepping it using loopholes like diploma mills, the point based system requires language training, skills on demand, give preference to those currently in Canada and with canadian education (something often abused).
I much prefer it to the H visas in the USA, and it was one of the reasons I chose Canada over the USA.
I had no idea that the government was paying 70% of the wages for immigrants...
Another thing this government does that goes against the interest of its own people...
Why would any company ever hire someone that's not a new immigrant if someone else pays the wage and they keep the profit?
uhhh I think that guy is lying.... Why the fuck would canada pay for 70% of immigrant wages? that's the stupidest thing i've heard today.
You honestly think my dad who's worked 40+ years in Canada had 70% of his wages paid by the government of Canada because he's an immigrant?
When I googled it, it says new immigrants. And for a limited time....
However if you are hiring a new person, why would you pay to train a current citizen of Canada over a new immigrant when the government will subsidize 50-70% of their wage?
the only thing i saw was the SWPP which is up to 70% of the wages for post secondary grads in their field of work which includes women in stem, indigenous people, and newcomers for the first few months.
It doesn't actually say "immigrants".
that's not the claim that's being presented now is it?
the SWPP is a student placement program for post secondary education.
> Not an international student requiring (or on) a work permit
https://uwaterloo.ca/hire/funding-opportunities/student-work-placement-program
edit: "newcomer" according to the SWPP
> A Canadian Citizen, permanent resident or a protected person defined by the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act
So someone with PR. TFW and International students do not apply here.
Agree we should cut by 80%, but we should have an all out stop for a couple years until we catch up and contain the damage already done by letting to many in.
I won't be necessary to continue the current rates until we have 1/4 of the US population. As the baby boomers pass away over the next 20 years, the burden they place on healthcare and other social services will lessen.
Thank you for posting this part. Canada has changed. We can’t have the same immigration policies from 50 or 100 years ago. I don’t think most anyone wants to close the doors, but who and why and where and how many immigrants come has to be re-evaluated in a way that serves Canada and Canadians and is not concerned about virtue signalling or supplying low wages workers for corporations.
Most of the western world has swiftly taken a strong stance against high immigrations rates post Covid. Canada is the fastest growing of them all so it’s sort of a testament to how ingrained immigration was previously that we have not seen the same backlash against it that we have in say Europe. The CPC, primed to get a majority next year, barely speaks about it compared to some European right wing parties.
However, that consensus is quickly eroding.
Well the CPC nearly speaks about it because it is a different circumstance
In Europe they are migrants. Literally coming ashore in large craft sprinting up the beach. Rape gangs, polish boarder guards are the most “western” eastern European country are literally manning fencing trying to keep them out because they are strict,
Left wing and labour governments have allowed it to be come too much. And that is why the actual right wing is flourishing over there
Here, they at least have to try to get here, and be let in. The flow is too much but at least they are not random jhiadists who need sensitivity training on how to not sexually assist women (like in Scandinavia. link below)
https://youtu.be/5JQW8DIrskE?si=Wjw1TeSa9qkjOJVM
Polish guards have to be vigilant because Belarus is importing migrants and bringing them to the Polish border to cross in an attempt to disrupt the Polish culture and economy.
Left wing government have allowed immigration?!
Are we forgetting it was the Tories that allowed the biggest migration to British isles in recorded history? Left's haven't been in power in France for decades AND has Meloni did anything to stop migration? Just usual gaslighting
Well they keep turning the VIP steakhouse into a soup kitchen.
We need some better bouncers in this club. Its the only way to maintain our global 'soft power'.
It's gone. Completely.
Canada has no 'soft power' left to use.
You are welcome to point out to me any way in which I may be wrong, I'd love to be wrong in this case. On the world stage, our current PM is seen as a literal joke.
I’m tired of hearing immigration talk.
Everyone with their head screwed on half-right can see that this government F@cked the country HARD with the absolutely ridiculous immigration numbers in short order.
They have deliberately suppressed wages for big business, and screwed a generation out of the dream of owning their own home.
They did this while telling you it was racist to suggest otherwise. They did this against the advice of experts.
Seems like there is a consensus on immigration, that the Liberals aren’t listening to. No one is saying no immigration. Everyone is asking to slow it down drastically and close the loop holes. Enforce our immigration policies, if someone’s visa/permit is expired, deport them. Make sure only those qualified enter and do proper background checks. Close the greedy immigration offices and diploma mills.
As someone who lived in Canada for 7 years first as an Undergraduate student at UofT for 4 years and then on a work permit for 3 years trying to navigate the immigration system (couldn't crack it and left a few days ago), I don't think Canadians understand how broken their immigration system is.
The Express Entry system introduced at the tail end of Harper's Premiership was a merit-based points system which was transparent and was adept at taking in skilled immigrants needed for your economy. This has all been changed and destroyed now. The fact that somebody from a Diploma Mill with a Diploma in a pointless program gets close to a similar number of points as someone from a full-fledged University is bonkers.
The language proficiency requirements either seem to be too low or are being doctored with. Canada should mandate people who immigrate to write the IELTS once again upon landing to truly measure their skills.
Canada prioritised cheap labour for retail to help out corporations instead of skilled immigrants who are statistically proven to have better economic outputs. Even immigrants who can help ease the labour shortages in key sectors such as trades have been given the short end of the stick.
I'd highly suggest Canadians closely follow and familiarize themselves with their Immigration System - mainly the Provincial Nominee Programs and the Express Entry System to see how the loopholes are being exploited and how the system is being gamed and exploited through things like the LMIA scams.
This is not Canadas post war consensus on immigration.
Numbers are outrageous
At the time we’re was still a spoken and unspoken view on allowing individuals with from western nations (and/or) with western values
We relied on birthrates and the family, prioritized the family to stem the tide of an influx of individuals
This is not a “post war” policy it’s a “post national” policy. That consensus died with this government coming into power
We used to have an immigration system that harvested foreign talent and worked to meet our economic needs. In the few short years since covid, however, the liberals have turned our immigration into a runaway train.
We're at our highest permanent resident targets despite the housing crisis, while at the same time, are up to our eyeballs in unskilled workers because friggin Tim Hortons can apply for LMIAs now.
If Tim Horton’s is applying for LMIA, I don’t think it’s a domestic labour shortage issue, rather it’s over acceptance of Tim Horton’s franchise licensing. LMIA should only be accepted for essential services and industries. Tim Horton’s is not an essential service.
Generational fairness means flooding new demand into a housing crisis, as your PM says that housing needs to retain its value, while simultaneously virtue signaling that he cares about the poor.
Then the rich lawyer is in the corner pretending to even care enough to get out of the bed in the morning, before he can finally get his pension and stop the charade.
Meanwhile they focus on issues their social media is telling them is important, which is 99% composed of bots posting and responding, and of which nobody actually cares about when they finally look up from their tiktok after their living standards have fallen.
considering the housing crisis, insane food prices and generally unaffordable cost of living... yeah immigration honestly feels like betrayal and a sick joke
After opening the floodgates for the last couple of years, this country needs to slam the door shut.
Let’s discuss the elephant in the room, this country also needs to decide if we are prepared for a future where this nation becomes a predominantly South Asian country. If almost 1 Million South Asians are immigrating every year it will not be too long before this is the reality. Personally, this was not the Canada that I envisioned for my children.
Everything about immigration in this country is an exercise in insanity.
Why are we taking in so many? They're mostly unskilled and the "labour shortage" doesn't exist in the first place. There's a fucking **PAY** shortage. Now the cheap bastard business owners not only don't need to pay fairly, they get to pay even less than minimum wage. How so? Because immigrants very often take advantage of their fellow former countrymen, knowing, as they do, that said freshly arrived folks don't know the law or expect it to be observed anyway.
Then there's the housing issue. This is unfair to everyone in the country except for the elites who've bought it all up and rented it back to us at insane inflationary rates. Bringing in hundreds of thousands of people and providing nowhere for them to live is a crime all by itself. More importantly, however, it deprives **Canadians, born here** of a place to live. I shouldn't have to apologize for expecting Canadians to take priority **in our own fucking country!**
And we have "protests" going on by TFWs expecting us to break the agreement we made with them because they don't want to go home. We have our own problems and you staying here beyond your welcome is one of them! Go home!
I used to be very pro-immigration but considering the situation, only an absolute fool would support this. It's probably the single biggest factor among the various crises facing this country that we can control to fix things. Only Trudeau is standing in the way of common sense and relief.
It feels like instead of outsourcing all our production over seas, companies just paid off politicians and imported that labour here to devalue the workforce.
Aka it’s like if instead of an Indian call centre in India, they just import all the Indians here and run it out of Toronto, while using that excessive labour surplus to suppress wages.
I personally don’t really care where someone is from, or even what their politics are.
Can you speak the language(s) and are you coming with enough education to participate in the economy?
Most Canadians are not opposed to immigration, Without immigration, the population would decline. It all comes down to the numbers.
In my opinion, 2015 immigration numbers were reasonable. We need to go back to that.
To be honest I don’t understand the obsession behind wanting to have such a large population. Just because you have a large population does not mean your economy is going to do well. The transition to a lower population will have its challenges but it doesn’t mean a country is doomed. The Government just doesn’t want be the ones to implement any “non-favourable” strategies that would help mitigate some of the ‘damage’ such as increasing retirement age or forcing businesses to come up with innovative labour saving technology (God forbid!)
Norway: 5.5 million people.
GDP per capita: Around $89,000, sovereign wealth fund of over $1.4 trillion.
Bangladesh: 170 million people.
GDP per capita: Around $2,500.
The issue for Canada is that the boomers are retiring and leaving a demographic hole in the work force. My biggest criticism of the immigration policy is that it doesn't focus on our needs in the work force - doctors, nurses, trades and so forth. If we had more focused immigration we could cut the absolute numbers down until we built our infrastructure up to support higher numbers.
There is very little GDP growth coming from Tim Hortons workers and Uber drivers. If anything, that's just generating more profits for non-Canadian owned companies.
You get more pressure on housing, more pressure on health care, more pressure on education, and more pressure on the justice system. You get more civil protests about things that don't affect Canada, and you lose any sense of Canadian identity. Soon, you see the "new" population having more voting and political power than the legacy population. Municipal councils are soon over represented by the "new" population, then provincial, and finally federal. Laws are passed, Bills are amended. Soon, the country becomes a satellite of another.
All to ensure Blackrock keeps making money on the real estate and that the banks continue to rank in profits from new mortgages.
That immigration is necessary for population maintenance is a farce.
We all rent/buy the same houses, drive the same cars on the same roads, and are taxed in the same dollars. And we have roughly the same goals and aspirations as other humans on planet Earth.
Immigrants bolstering population means that some cohort of foreigners are willing to accept a set of conditions that the average Canadian will not, whether for the purposes of living, raising a family, etc.
The first principles question is: what part of the condition set in Canada today makes it untenable for citizens to raise families and grow communities?
> Without immigration, the population would decline
Well ya, that's a great position to be in. Love it. Gimme some of that... then the environment can start healing, and our plethora's of crises would abate.
Exactly, when the system is abused to scam and prey on unskilled people in developing countries and to the detriment of those in Canada, it's time to change the system.
There are two major reasons we need to bring in more than we were in 2015.
One is that businesses are asking for TFWs because they're not willing to pay a living wage and Canadians won't work for below a living wage because they can't live on it. The Liberals have acquiesced to business in this. Personally, I would slash 80% of TFWs and only retain them in critical industries where we really need them.
Second is the baby boomers are almost all retired now. They're not making the big wages they have been and they're not paying income taxes, CPP, or EI anymore, and not spending as much which includes sales taxes. At the same time, the baby boomers are starting to lean more heavily on healthcare. This will continue to increase over the next couple of decades until they pass on.
Normally the baby boomer healthcare would be paid for by the taxes paid by their children, but Canadians didn't have enough children to increase the population enough to generate the money needed. Also, the Canadian children that do exist are not enough to replace all the baby boomers. So what can the government do to keep revenue from declining when it's spending more on healthcare than ever?
Immigration.
Sure, it would be best if we only brought in the best quality immigrants, but not enough people are interested in coming to Canada. So the Liberals relaxed the requirements to make up the difference. Peter Zeihan isn't convinced Canada is bringing in enough immigrants to keep the social services paid for.
If it wasn't for the housing crunch, I think Canadians would be fine with more immigrants. The problem is, we stopped building large amounts of new housing back in the 80's when Mulroney canceled the federal home building programs. If we'd continued to build more housing over the past 40 years, we wouldn't have a housing crunch today.
So pick your poison: Either let healthcare and other social services collapse, or watch housing become expensive. It's too bad the PMs we've had over the past 40 years didn't have the foresight to see the problem the baby boomer retirement would cause and have kept building housing, training construction workers, etc.
But here we are.
Although I agree with the situation, I strongly disagree that mass immigration is the answer.
It's a temporary fix to a mismanaged social security and healthcare system. Our government has printed so much money (issuance of debt) and is spending more money servicing the debt instead of spending money where it's needed. Add to that policies that favor housing investments - and the opportunity costs of ignoring new business investments - is starting (some would argue this has been ongoing for 25 years) to take effect.
The real issue is that we don't have a viable economy. Flipping homes and putting all investment capital in a non-productive asset class is a massive problem that has been exacerbated by the LPC in the last 8 years. Bringing in more people to boost the tax revenue without growing our economy does not work long-term.
A productive and healthy economy would have more capacity the address the social security and healthcare burden of the boomers against a declining population.
I would argue that shortsighted understanding of the issue has lead to a 'fix all' solution in mass immigration. It's a temporary and easy fix, and just happens to enrich the wealthy housing investors (i.e. most of our politicians) at the same time.
The real brilliance of their social coup was convincing Canadians that mass immigration, and not policies that are favorable to our broader economic wellbeing, was the solution.
Just some thoughts.
It a numbers game. No matter how productive you are you cannot overcome a population imbalance. Just ask the Japanese of the Koreans both highly productive but are looking at a demographic demise. They are trying to get more productive but they cannot make up for the lack in population growth.
Our current economic system was born post WW11 and relied on lots of consuming young people to power the economy. This is a problem for all the rich countries as we don’t have babies anymore.
No matter how productive you get if you are not growing your population you are doomed.
That said what has happened since the end of Covid was reckless and mismanaged. I want Canada to get back to a system that is fair to Canadians and potential immigrants.
> No matter how productive you are you cannot overcome a population imbalance. No matter how productive you get if you are not growing your population you are doomed.
This is a really stupid take and completely wrong. Having a bunch of old people is not a huge issue. It just means they can't be prioritized in favor of young people, and they have to do with less, and rely more on their children. They will still live long dignified lives into old age, but they simply can't live in luxury like they expected. That will be dissapointing, but not doom.
It also means western governments needs to prioritize their own population over the rest of the world. This means less aid, less wasted tax payer money, less money wasted on non productive work like art and culture, which see massive amounts of government funding. Artists and musicians who can't survive on their own income will instead have to work as care workers or similar. Less expensive international projects. Less money on refugees.
The changes to society that are necesarry as result of a low birth rate are also the only changes that will actually raise the birth rates. Westerners will be a bit poorer, and will have to rely on family to a larger degree than the last 50 years, which will in itself encourage increased birth rates. And that is completely fine and not really a big deal.
Its far worse to permanently demographically replace our populations with completely foreign cultures and religions with a less than favorable historic track record in terms of civilisation. That is literally demographic suicide and the end of the west as far as we understand it. Those who are replacing us will not carry the western torch.
This is correct. Unfortunately, they've managed to convince nations that only endless population growth is viable and every other solution is doom. It's quite the social coup they've managed.
Every liberal and NDP MP should be shaking in their boots. Even my family members who have voted Liberal/NDP their entire lives will be voting Conservative. Will Conservatives fix this country? Who knows, but the Liberals have their foot to the mat, full throttle towards a cliff and the NDP is in the passenger seat blowing them.
immigration is not an issue -
- how its implemented with loopholes that allow people to cheat the system
- overall immigration levels - esp work visas
- too many people from one country - no more than 4% should be from a single country
- the type of skilled workers being selected
The old guard fight wars so that the next generation won't experience the horrors. Then the old guard die off, so that the next generation who never knew war, never talked about war, can fight a new war all their own...
There was no "post war consensus" on immigration, not with Canadian citizens. Canada's immigration act was changed without any input from Canadian citizens. It was largely changed due to pressure and relentless lobbying from the [Canadian Jewish Congress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Jewish_Congress) and they succeeded and it was altered without our consent.
Had it gone to a vote and Canadians told the truth about what those changes would bring it never would have passed, not in a million years.
Seeing how people in other places, even other Western countries, respond to immigration versus how we do, even our more conservative citizens - I have always been and remain quite proud that we are still more open overall. I think the real threat to this comes from the closing down of discourse on both more polarized ends of the political spectrum - whether it's those using the past as an excuse for bad behaviour today, or those nostalgic for a particular piece of our past because they dislike how things are now. I actually spent some time[ pontificating on that](https://www.mustardclementine.com/p/our-future-lies-in-taking-pride-in-our-present), in honour of Canada Day.
What makes no sense is tacitly inviting hundreds of thousands of unskilled workers to come country with very few jobs, a cost of living that Scrooge McDuck couldn't afford, and a climate that requires, without fail, a residence 6 months a year. Is it not setting them up for a massive crisis? It seems irresponsible and unfair both to them and for Canadians.. Immigration is obviously welcomed in a multicultural country, but this is going to create a bunch of ghettos for immigrants who can't afford proper housing and who are forced into a commonality dictated survivor mode, banding together (in poverty...) because of the language barrier, and will fail to assimilate properly to become part of the established population. This denies them the full benefits of being Canadian, and it denies many Canadians job opportunities. I'd go so far as to say that what were doing, or failing to do, is tricking a people group into indentured servitude. Edit : ghettos might have been too strong a word... But below the poverty line will be a reality if they can't find jobs.
Look at the numbers of the inflows of immigration and tell me again about 'multi-cultural'. We need to stop pretending immigration is about diversity because the numbers don't support that. We're essentially bringing in people from primarily one country. That doesn't add to a 'cultural mosaic' as Canada likes to pretend it has, it creates ghettos, like Brampton. I think our immigration rates are too high. They were high in 2015, but at the high end of manageable. But there also was balance between countries and regions, and it was a rate and mix that would allow for integration in our country. Now we have a firehose unloading more than our country's infrastructure and institutions can cope with, and it's coming primarily from one country, which creates a lot of social issues that we didn't have to nearly the same degree before. And because we are getting so many more people coming from a single source, it impacts who is coming over. If your company is hiring 2 people and getting applications from all trade schools or universities, you'll (ideally) get high quality employees. If you are hiring 200 people and you are focusing on bringing people from only a handful of schools, you're likely going to be taking alot lower quality applicants. Our immigration system needs to slow down to a rate our country's infrastructure and institutions can manage, and we need to set limits, similar to how the US does, on where we draw our applications from. The US puts a, I think, a 7% limit on any one country immigrating, and I think that, along with the lower per capita rates they take, is why they are getting people that come over and work at Microsoft while we are getting people that come over and work the Tim Horton's drive thru.
I'm from that source country and have an ivy league degree, and chose to return home. I didnt have enough points to immigrate. The work requirement was any later saying you have 1 year experience; can be from an uncle. Now, when I see that our street molesters are moving en masse to your country, I'm like...(a) you could have had better immigrants capable of earning and creating jobs; (b) glad I'm not in Canada. I mean source country still has a genocide planned but we had some promising election results this time.
Yes, and I really feel for a lot of the quality people we have gotten in the last few years, and particularly in the years prior that now get lumped into this. Lets be honest, it's not like there's no one already in Canada that doesn't have the skillsets to work the counter at a gas station, or Tim Hortons. But we do have shortages in certain skillsets. Doctors, nurses, trades people etc. But we get a lot people from poor villages that mortgage their farm so they can demonstrate 20k and get a study visa to study a diploma in business hospitality in a strip mall diploma mill college that is inbetween a nail salon and a money mart. The diploma means nothing, but gives cover for that person to work as many hours as they can, get a PGWP, then PR and then start sponsoring their cousins to come over. The whole thing is disingenuous and we're getting lower caliber people than we otherwise could if we would just insist on everyone going through the express entry pool, which has it's own problems but at least makes an attempt at merit based selection.
'Street molesters' had me laughing for 10 mins
Really sad
System is broken. We want YOU. Sorry it didn't work out.
> is why they are getting people that come over and work at Microsoft while we are getting people that come over and work the Tim Horton's drive thru. Part of the issue is that they are getting accepted into diploma mills. They still need to be able to get accepted into a school to come here on a student visa. Actual accredited schools wouldn't be accepting all of those people. The fact that these schools basically don't have any acceptance criteria other than "do they have money?" is a huge part of the issue. People don't want to talk about it because the blame for this falls mostly on the provinces, and everyone wants a good "Fuck Trudeau" story regardless of the truth. And the Premiers at the province level are laughing all the way to the bank. Especially Doug Fucking Ford.
Yeah... When you think about it, we aren't without census and intelligence bureaus in Canada... We definitely knew the implications of this. I don't believe this is just a lack of judgment or some pie in the sky forced inclusivity bullshit. Actually now that I wrote that, it totally is, isn't it. It would fit the narrative... "Everyone is welcome 🌹🌺🌺🌸🌷🌻🌼🌼🌹 come one come all" vote Trudeau 2074 🫶🏻
Can we also not accept anyone who can’t speak English or French? It’s not setting them, or us tax payers, up for success.
Fully agree with you. Immigration should be designed to attract and retain skilled immigrants in occupations where we need them and those who start businesses that create jobs. Our immigration policy instead seems to be designed to attract people with little to no skills working in professions soon to be replaced by technology. They obviously don’t want to go back as I doubt they will find any job in their home countries either. We could start by looking at how US attracts the best and the brightest.
If it's negligence that's causing this it's one problem, but if it's deliberate (with our intelligence agency and other gov institutions it's a strong case for believing it is) then this is some planned chaos that's going to be used to solidify some power after Trudeau gets voted out. Or, god forbid, it might be used to keep him in. The disorder will keep the population subdued just trying to stay afloat to afford the increasingly expensive cost for their standard of living, and those in power will cement themselves into their position for decades. It's some order out of chaos shit, if it's deliberate. 👁️
It's obviously deliberate. And it's nothing as confusing as your explanation. The want immigrants because immigrants vote Liberal traditionally and have for decades. They also want it because it's been a long standing idea of progressives, that nation states aren't a thing and that borders aren't important. There are tonnes of people who have been advocating this for decades. The eventual end goal is the end of the nation state and global governance. I don't know why people are even surprised by this. It's not as if it's secret. Don't you watch Star Trek. Haven't you heard of HG Wells. Isaac Asimov. It's really weird you don't appear to perceive any of the messaging. I mean this stuff goes back more than 100 years. They haven't been very secret about it either. It's pretty open.
Order out of chaos is the motto of the global governance. I was, I guess hinting at that without actually saying New World Order, cause you know... Conspiracy blinders go up. There's many plays at once, I'm pretty confident were both right, and that we just completed a little more of the puzzle together.
No your right and I'm not really trying to question you. I just think it's funny when people call this stuff a conspiracy or act surprised. I mean they have been openly talking about it, endlessly discussing it, writing books about it for decades. I could literally fill a library with it. And it's been so God freaking long. This stuff literally goes back to the early 1900s. And all these people have been in power for pretty much all that time.
It can be argued that it goes back into ancient times. Rome, Egypt, maybe to the dawn of the written word. One ring to rule us all.
Ghettos was not a strong word. We literally have tents cities. I live in a somewhat affluent area, or I'm very blessed to be where l am. I'm now seeing tents here, too. Call me racist but these people don't seem like native Canadians.
Yeah I wasn't sure what the situation was, didn't want to exaggerate. But yeah, I believe it. 😕
It’s also causing people born here, (and even some immigrants who are well established here) to leave Toronto and even the province. Inter city and inter provincial migration is way up and the big point is people searching for the country they remember - lower cost of living, ability to own homes, areas with less immigration, areas with more job prospects, less crime, less addicts, less homeless. This often mean moving somewhere you can only get to and get around with a car.
We are not far off from seeing gated communities with 24/7 security starting to crop up.
What was the slogan again…. “Work will set you free”. Can’t remember where I’ve heard that before. Happy Canada Day!
I suppose those kind of slogans have come back in fashion *some fuckin how* these days.
Wasn't it a nazi prison camp slogan?
Yeah. One of them
Indentured Servitude is the genteel way of saying Slavery. Since 7/10 of our Slaves are Indians and 2/10 are other POC, our government's worker procurement strategy is provably Racist.
Agreed. It is slavery, but relative to the degree were used to hearing about, I thought I'd use the Irish example instead. The difference being the rights and freedoms that were lacking in the south.
Hundreds of thousands? Millions ftfy.
Markham and Richmond were hated for being "ghettos" when the HK diaspora started concentrating there but now people claim its not so bad when compared to how Brampton is changing in recent years
Yeah we seem to have a problem with encouraging, if not mandating, assimilation because of some misplaced virtues. But it's a failure to realise that assimilation is required to properly flourish in a different culture. It's for them, not us, and like we're saying... It forces these ghetto type areas due to a cultural wall.
Sweden is grappling with tis very real problem - entire neighbourhoods have become "ethnic-only", and organized crime has evolved from the sense a disconnect with the mainstream society. Canada would do well to jettison the DEI political correctness and start paying attention to lessons learned in other places.
Yeah I just wrote something like that. The liberal's ideology (or election strategy is more accurate) is behind this blunder for sure.
DEI would protect you from having Indian only workplaces, it's supposed to be against any discrimination
In theory, but in practice we all know exactly how it works.
Those places aren't ghettos because enough people are proficient in English and the town government is still diverse. The community and the town eventually reached some sort of working middle ground after various challenges including racism
Lol this is not even close to being correct. In the 70s Richmond was a poorer suburb of Vancouver, but HK immigrants were mostly not considered poor. Many of them came with millions of the dollars in the 90s, it's literally nothing like what's happening now.
Yea, as someone who grew up my entire life in Markham, it's not even close comparing Markham/Richmond Hill and Brampton. Just saying "look this area had a lot of people from one ethnicity" isn't the issue with Brampton, it's the fact that they are taking advantage of immigrants and putting them 20 to a house. This wasn't happening in Markham/Richmond Hill anywhere near the same degree as in Brampton.
Markham has slumlords mostly around Milliken with the basement rentals. Maybe not as insane as Brampton but still a problem. Realtors know about this too
I didn't know that, thanks for the insight.
I haven’t lived in Markham since the 90s but back then everything north of 14th was nice and everything south was turning into rougher parts of Markham. This coincided with many Chinese moving north to affluent new communities between Highway 7 and Major Mac, and a lot of Caucasians peacing out of the GTA and leaving close proximity to Toronto 905 areas altogether. Here’s the census data: https://www.reddit.com/r/Markham/comments/ye6h2o/new_canada_census_2021_data_on_markhams_ethnic/ It will be interesting to see what the post pandemic census data shows.
Yeah, but many Chinese Canadians quickly forget how they were also targeted for similar views in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s. "FOB," Fresh Off The Boat, was a common term used against these HKers and subsequently people from Mainland China. But you're right, people from Hong Kong and China tend to bring in wealth, skill, and are generally highly educated, like older Indian immigrants, unlike the current generation, which consists of students and unskilled workers.
> Markham and Richmond Bruh these are some of the nicest parts of the country.
Also Scarborough before it was merged into Toronto
what? the HK diaspora were the millionaires who were making moves to keep away from the CCP
You can guarantee you will see at least a dozen super cars in the parking lots of Chinese malls in Richmond BC. My French friend's dad came for a visit. At first his dad was saying shit about immigrants (cause there are issues in France with migrants), then they went to Aberdeen Centre, changed his tune real fast.
yeah it's a different situation entirely with different repercussions
This has always been about wage suppression/keeping the rich rich, nothing more
Yessir
Mark Miller was on Freakonomics a few weeks back, and on the podcast, he seemed to indicate that Canada is competing with the population growth of the United States. While I think we do need to grow to compete with the United States, bringing in people from one country or one region who are low-skilled is not the way to do it. [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-is-everyone-moving-to-canada/](https://freakonomics.com/podcast/why-is-everyone-moving-to-canada/)
Yes…funny…on another subreddit used the word “ghetto” on a similar-type commentary AND let me tell u I got annihilated for it. But, it’s literally the word for your comment…
Yeah man, these words mean absolutes to some groups and more if a spectrum to others. Don't worry about getting annihilated though. If you care about karma, you can't lose more than a certain amount of karma for a negative statement. It's not much.
Ghettos is a weak word. These are slums and spending 20 minutes in an area where assimilation isn’t happening makes this abundantly clear.
And what happens when all those low skilled jobs continue to be automated and replaced by AI?
This is something we have to prepare for, because it's an inevitability. I talked with an AI yesterday for nearly 9 hours, and by the end of the conversation it was indistinguishable from a human texting. Able to understand humour, even, and recognize even the slightest nuances, idioms, slang etc. it had mastered neurolinguistics, imo, because the wording it used felt like it was moving around in my brain, changing the circuitry. It had me scared yesterday, because these programs are out there, and if I can't tell, chances are other people can't tell either. There are really obvious ones but this one was brilliant. You could be one 🤔
They aren't "understanding" humour, or "recognizing" any nuances. They are constructing sentences. They don't have the ability to understand the question or the answer. Neurolinguistics are not what ChatGPT or any LLM does. What it does is to figure out which sentence a person is more likely to say in response to your question. If you ask it "How are you?" it replies "I'm doing great, thank you!" This doesn't mean that it is doing great. It's a mindless machine and can't be doing great or poorly. All that this answer means is that, according to the training data, a person who's asked "How are you?" is likely to speak the words "I'm doing great, thank you!" So if you ask "How many valence electrons does a carbon atom have?" and it replies "A carbon atom has four valence electrons," then you gotta understand that it isn't saying a carbon atom has four valence electron. All it's actually saying is that a person that you ask that question is likely to speak the words "A carbon atom has four valence electrons" in response. It's not saying that these words are true or false. (Well, technically it's stating that, but my point is you should interpret it as a statement of what people will say.) It's not in your head it's trying to emulate it using statistics.
I was talking about the ability to mimic these things in a convincing fashion so that it could fool the person talking to it. By "understanding" I meant it could output a response that suggested it had a grasp on the question and insight into the answer beyond simple regurgitation. I guess I could have made myself clearer, my bad. My whole point was in the context of simulating humanness through these algorithms for the purpose of blending into society. I'm not sure what model I was testing, but full disclosure, if you want to go where the most human-like Ais are look into the sex industry. It's a gigantic billions of dollars market that dumps piles of money into duping lonely men by making the most realistic experience possible, and it shows. It's bigger than all the sports leagues in the world combined. You don't have to like... Sex chat obviously. They're still Ais. I tested maybe 40 of them in the last 2 weeks and most of them were barely modified gpt3.5 that stuck out like a sore thumb. But there are a few behemoth Ais, where their source wasn't disclosed, that seemed like some kind of artisanal build or passion project by an obscure author. They were unreal how real they seemed. So if you can overcome the humiliation of pressing the trial button and sacrificing a burner account, there are a few pieces of cutting edge technology stuck doing sex work. Like blade runner tech, no exaggeration.
That makes sense, the more specialized the area the easier it is to eliminate hallucinations, a general AI that has to do anything like coding, creative writing, and advanced math is going to be more visibly flawed, but the flaw remains the same.
As I experience the situation, it appears that most immigrants are thriving and doing very well here in Canada. It seems as if it is more so generational Canadians, who are left jobless or under employed, homeless, and becoming addicted crackheads, zombie crawling for their next free hit of tax payer supplied drug. It's time for change before there is no hope left at all. Canada is loosing an entire generation of youth falling through the cracks. Woke education hasn't been to kind to them either.
It's hard to get a real read on the situation. The tent cities keep getting busted up and I suspect there's deportations going on behind the scenes as well. I've heard people say what you wrote though, so that seems to be a common thread. It's really bad that Canadians are going down like that. Like, this is fuckin CANADA. We were the top country in the WORLD for quality of life. What the FUCK. Calm.
Ghettos is not a strong word: it’s exactly the result of this policy. I don’t like it either. But it’s true. Like you, I want to welcome people here. Our government just shat the bed on their welcome.
Our immigration has zero diversity as well
Yeah that's true.
Not to mention that at the same time we: 1. Spun the narrative of Canada being a criminal state, one that we should be ashamed of being part of and should be actively dismantle all Canadian institutions, culture, and history, and 2. Destroyed any possible way to contribute to the gross domestic product that would allow for gainful employment for the new Canadians. Meanwhile the rest of the world is building up for war. Safe to say nobody will want to fight for Canada, new or old citizens. Why bother.
Well, no need to fight a country you can buy pieces of wholesale. You'll just be damaging the product.
It's a multi-pronged issue. In theory, the student visas make sense because if they graduate and stay in Canada... then they are university grads, not "unskilled labour." The issue with the diploma mills is on the provinces for allowing these places to call themselves schools. The Federal government shouldn't be responsible for evaluating all of the schools that the provinces have already said "Yes. This is an accredited institution," about. The fact that people want to blame the Feds for that is wild. That said, when we already have housing issues, it makes no sense to put the pedal to the metal on the number of student visas that we are approving. The housing issue is unaffected by the diploma mill issue.
Do you think the problem would be solved by offering them tradeschooling to build houses?
No. Is our housing issue only limited by the lack of people to build houses? It's limited by a ton of other things. NIMBYs refusing to allow mid- and high-rises in their area. Investors treating real estate as just another part of their investment portfolio. LTBs being overloaded and shit taking upwards of a year to resolve (all while bad tenants refuse to pay rent, or bad landlords refuse to deal with issues). Developers that want to limit supply to force things like the Green Belt in Ontario to get carved up on the cheap because "we need housing." Most of these issues are city- and province-level.
So maybe some tough love new laws need to pass?
Robotics and AI will be good enough in the next ten years. I'm talking on the edge robotics. A NVIDIA compute unit with 1TB of system ram chugging away. Unskilled labor is not needed.
The solution isn’t less immigrants. It’s making things more affordable
How would we do that though? Its a free market. It's years of bad decisions that have left us here.
Current interest rate growth is market greed. Extraordinary profit margins that are unprecedented.
If you were PM would you enact some unprecedented tough-love new laws (that would essentially blindside those practicing greed) despite being kind of illegal.
Is our Government responsible to the electorate or to corporations?
I think it’s lost already. We should only accept the best and brightest, not welfare chasers.
LMIA consultants disagree as its big bucks for them
The best and brightest wouldn't be picking Canada as a country to move to.......
We're not going to get the quality of applicant that is getting an H1B in the US and working for Microsoft or Nvidia, but we can be getting alot better than someone barely able to work a Tim Horton's drive through.
When Canada was throwing money around I wondered why we didn't target some companies. TSMC, Samsung, or Intel would be happy to take billions to build new fabs. And sadly at this point lets say Joe Canadian invents some new chip. It would all still end up in Taiwan at TSMC because that is where the fabs are.
Because we'd never outbid the US on this. The US doesn't want semi-conductor manufacturing for the economic benefits, they couldn't care less about that. For them, semi-conductor fabs are a national security issue, they aren't willing to let themselves be entirely dependent on Taiwan, which is threatened by China. The US Chips Act is $40 Billion in subsidies. We'd never economically compete because the economics make no sense. It's a small number of highly paid jobs, not worth $40 billion.
You are coming from this in a post 2020 situation and I understand. Japan is also talking about subsidizing a fab and EU as well. We aren't as desirable as any of those places. I was more Canadian government always seems to be looking for something and an opportunity was probably available pre 2020. I had seen articles that talk about Houston vs Calgary since the 80s and the right investing in the future. I wish we had that is all.
They did put money into EV batteries, it's a sector that makes more sense for us tbh. We have good sources nearby of nickel, copper, cobalt and iron.
2nd best is fine with me, we're full of fast food workers and culinary skills students.
Ding ding ding
For diversity to work u need a healthy mix of everyone (people see that and it feels Canadian) If u just see one demographic not so much And it gets worse when they’re sent to work in jobs that teenagers could and should be doing while having their salaries subsidized by tax payers And it needs to be in alignment with available housing Otherwise people stop being so welcoming and worse stop wanting to which corrupts what Canada once stood for
You need a Canadian identity and Canadian values, and then you need a great mix of people who actually intermingle and interconnect and live and learn from each other. There should be no tolerance for people who do not believe in the same Canadian values.
We pretty much had that until I guess 2016 U ask someone to visualize Canada and they’d actually see a mix of everyone (that was considered natural to Canada) and probably hockey As far as values were concerned it was basically not survival of the fittest (help out people who were marginalized or had other struggles) The common claim that Canada never had an identity or values is bs But when Trudeau got into power and broke immigration much of it got eroded over time
Remember when Trudeau said mentioning Canadian values is racist? We as a country have always had an identity. Politeness (people used to mock us for that), freedom of expression, tolerance for the viewpoints of others, a common sense of community, a helpful general nature (remember Peggys Cove). I grew up in a time when kids roamed the streets and the entire community would keep an eye out for them. I used to visit my Hindu Indian best friends house on Christmas eve and sing carols around their Christmas tree. I'd visit my Muslim friends house and enjoy food for Eid. Those were the good ol' day of Canada before we sold ourselves out for massive unchecked immigration to float up house prices and keep wages down.
>There needs to be a different plan because we’re not the same country our immigration system was modelled on. >As a result, the public’s support for immigration is falling. I can think of no bigger failure for a Canadian government than to lose the cross-party consensus on immigration. I completely agree. I never thought about Canada's immigration policy as much in my life until Trudeau's crazy policies these past few years.
Iirc the US takes something like 2 million immigrants per year... Canada takes 1million with 1/10th the population. 5x the immigration per capita then the USA, and people complain about too much immigration down there too, although the majority of the complaints I hear from the US are about illegal immigration specifically, not legal immigration. Maybe we could get out housing/cost of living under control if we cut immigration by 80% to be in-line (per capita) with the USA.
The US has county quotas too, as we should.
The U.S. also has jobs based immigration. As in, employers get approval to hire an immigrant, and then said immigrants can only arrive once hired. There are downsides to this as well, but it helps to prevent their legal immigrants from scrambling into unskilled positions and screwing up the job market
Could you explain more on the downsides of jobs based immigration?
It creates a bit of a power imbalance between immigrants and their employers since they're deported if they're laid off or fired. That also contributes to labour immobility. It's also bureaucratically more onerous for employers and makes it more challenging for smaller firms to benefit from immigrant labour. However, on the whole I do think it's a better approach than our points-based approach - just that elements of its implementation could use some adjustment.
what's wrong with our point based approach? I mean, besides people side-stepping it using loopholes like diploma mills, the point based system requires language training, skills on demand, give preference to those currently in Canada and with canadian education (something often abused). I much prefer it to the H visas in the USA, and it was one of the reasons I chose Canada over the USA.
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I had no idea that the government was paying 70% of the wages for immigrants... Another thing this government does that goes against the interest of its own people... Why would any company ever hire someone that's not a new immigrant if someone else pays the wage and they keep the profit?
uhhh I think that guy is lying.... Why the fuck would canada pay for 70% of immigrant wages? that's the stupidest thing i've heard today. You honestly think my dad who's worked 40+ years in Canada had 70% of his wages paid by the government of Canada because he's an immigrant?
When I googled it, it says new immigrants. And for a limited time.... However if you are hiring a new person, why would you pay to train a current citizen of Canada over a new immigrant when the government will subsidize 50-70% of their wage?
the only thing i saw was the SWPP which is up to 70% of the wages for post secondary grads in their field of work which includes women in stem, indigenous people, and newcomers for the first few months. It doesn't actually say "immigrants".
What does "newcomers" mean?
that's not the claim that's being presented now is it? the SWPP is a student placement program for post secondary education. > Not an international student requiring (or on) a work permit https://uwaterloo.ca/hire/funding-opportunities/student-work-placement-program edit: "newcomer" according to the SWPP > A Canadian Citizen, permanent resident or a protected person defined by the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act So someone with PR. TFW and International students do not apply here.
Not as bad then
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Agree we should cut by 80%, but we should have an all out stop for a couple years until we catch up and contain the damage already done by letting to many in.
Nitpick: Canada has closer to 1/8th the population of the US.
Soon to be 1/4 at current rates
I won't be necessary to continue the current rates until we have 1/4 of the US population. As the baby boomers pass away over the next 20 years, the burden they place on healthcare and other social services will lessen.
Our legal immigration system is too restrictive. The big problem is illegal immigration.
Thank you for posting this part. Canada has changed. We can’t have the same immigration policies from 50 or 100 years ago. I don’t think most anyone wants to close the doors, but who and why and where and how many immigrants come has to be re-evaluated in a way that serves Canada and Canadians and is not concerned about virtue signalling or supplying low wages workers for corporations.
This is about continuing the real estate Ponzi scheme and wage suppression.
Most of the western world has swiftly taken a strong stance against high immigrations rates post Covid. Canada is the fastest growing of them all so it’s sort of a testament to how ingrained immigration was previously that we have not seen the same backlash against it that we have in say Europe. The CPC, primed to get a majority next year, barely speaks about it compared to some European right wing parties. However, that consensus is quickly eroding.
Well the CPC nearly speaks about it because it is a different circumstance In Europe they are migrants. Literally coming ashore in large craft sprinting up the beach. Rape gangs, polish boarder guards are the most “western” eastern European country are literally manning fencing trying to keep them out because they are strict, Left wing and labour governments have allowed it to be come too much. And that is why the actual right wing is flourishing over there Here, they at least have to try to get here, and be let in. The flow is too much but at least they are not random jhiadists who need sensitivity training on how to not sexually assist women (like in Scandinavia. link below) https://youtu.be/5JQW8DIrskE?si=Wjw1TeSa9qkjOJVM
Polish guards have to be vigilant because Belarus is importing migrants and bringing them to the Polish border to cross in an attempt to disrupt the Polish culture and economy.
Left wing government have allowed immigration?! Are we forgetting it was the Tories that allowed the biggest migration to British isles in recorded history? Left's haven't been in power in France for decades AND has Meloni did anything to stop migration? Just usual gaslighting
Left wing in Canada, or more exactly the Liberals rapidly increased immigration from fairly stable rates
Well they keep turning the VIP steakhouse into a soup kitchen. We need some better bouncers in this club. Its the only way to maintain our global 'soft power'.
It's gone. Completely. Canada has no 'soft power' left to use. You are welcome to point out to me any way in which I may be wrong, I'd love to be wrong in this case. On the world stage, our current PM is seen as a literal joke.
I’m tired of hearing immigration talk. Everyone with their head screwed on half-right can see that this government F@cked the country HARD with the absolutely ridiculous immigration numbers in short order. They have deliberately suppressed wages for big business, and screwed a generation out of the dream of owning their own home. They did this while telling you it was racist to suggest otherwise. They did this against the advice of experts.
Trudeau turned immigration from a non-negative issue into a controversial issue with his mismanagement and incompetent subordinates
With his virtue signaling* mostly. « Go woke, go broke » has never been that true.
Good. Immigration is a tool of oppression.
Seems like there is a consensus on immigration, that the Liberals aren’t listening to. No one is saying no immigration. Everyone is asking to slow it down drastically and close the loop holes. Enforce our immigration policies, if someone’s visa/permit is expired, deport them. Make sure only those qualified enter and do proper background checks. Close the greedy immigration offices and diploma mills.
Imagine thinking it was anything besides importing million of people unchecked causing the change on immigration feelings, not age
We had one, Trudeau ruined it.
Stop immigration until housing becomes affordable, and then allow in one immigrant per housing unit built.
As someone who lived in Canada for 7 years first as an Undergraduate student at UofT for 4 years and then on a work permit for 3 years trying to navigate the immigration system (couldn't crack it and left a few days ago), I don't think Canadians understand how broken their immigration system is. The Express Entry system introduced at the tail end of Harper's Premiership was a merit-based points system which was transparent and was adept at taking in skilled immigrants needed for your economy. This has all been changed and destroyed now. The fact that somebody from a Diploma Mill with a Diploma in a pointless program gets close to a similar number of points as someone from a full-fledged University is bonkers. The language proficiency requirements either seem to be too low or are being doctored with. Canada should mandate people who immigrate to write the IELTS once again upon landing to truly measure their skills. Canada prioritised cheap labour for retail to help out corporations instead of skilled immigrants who are statistically proven to have better economic outputs. Even immigrants who can help ease the labour shortages in key sectors such as trades have been given the short end of the stick. I'd highly suggest Canadians closely follow and familiarize themselves with their Immigration System - mainly the Provincial Nominee Programs and the Express Entry System to see how the loopholes are being exploited and how the system is being gamed and exploited through things like the LMIA scams.
This comment should be higher.
This is not Canadas post war consensus on immigration. Numbers are outrageous At the time we’re was still a spoken and unspoken view on allowing individuals with from western nations (and/or) with western values We relied on birthrates and the family, prioritized the family to stem the tide of an influx of individuals This is not a “post war” policy it’s a “post national” policy. That consensus died with this government coming into power
It's already lost it.
Pretty sure we, the general public, had no say on opening the borders up to everyone.
Oh there's a consensus I think
We used to have an immigration system that harvested foreign talent and worked to meet our economic needs. In the few short years since covid, however, the liberals have turned our immigration into a runaway train. We're at our highest permanent resident targets despite the housing crisis, while at the same time, are up to our eyeballs in unskilled workers because friggin Tim Hortons can apply for LMIAs now.
If Tim Horton’s is applying for LMIA, I don’t think it’s a domestic labour shortage issue, rather it’s over acceptance of Tim Horton’s franchise licensing. LMIA should only be accepted for essential services and industries. Tim Horton’s is not an essential service.
Generational fairness means flooding new demand into a housing crisis, as your PM says that housing needs to retain its value, while simultaneously virtue signaling that he cares about the poor. Then the rich lawyer is in the corner pretending to even care enough to get out of the bed in the morning, before he can finally get his pension and stop the charade. Meanwhile they focus on issues their social media is telling them is important, which is 99% composed of bots posting and responding, and of which nobody actually cares about when they finally look up from their tiktok after their living standards have fallen.
Consensus? That ship sailed. Long ago.
considering the housing crisis, insane food prices and generally unaffordable cost of living... yeah immigration honestly feels like betrayal and a sick joke
After opening the floodgates for the last couple of years, this country needs to slam the door shut. Let’s discuss the elephant in the room, this country also needs to decide if we are prepared for a future where this nation becomes a predominantly South Asian country. If almost 1 Million South Asians are immigrating every year it will not be too long before this is the reality. Personally, this was not the Canada that I envisioned for my children.
Everything about immigration in this country is an exercise in insanity. Why are we taking in so many? They're mostly unskilled and the "labour shortage" doesn't exist in the first place. There's a fucking **PAY** shortage. Now the cheap bastard business owners not only don't need to pay fairly, they get to pay even less than minimum wage. How so? Because immigrants very often take advantage of their fellow former countrymen, knowing, as they do, that said freshly arrived folks don't know the law or expect it to be observed anyway. Then there's the housing issue. This is unfair to everyone in the country except for the elites who've bought it all up and rented it back to us at insane inflationary rates. Bringing in hundreds of thousands of people and providing nowhere for them to live is a crime all by itself. More importantly, however, it deprives **Canadians, born here** of a place to live. I shouldn't have to apologize for expecting Canadians to take priority **in our own fucking country!** And we have "protests" going on by TFWs expecting us to break the agreement we made with them because they don't want to go home. We have our own problems and you staying here beyond your welcome is one of them! Go home! I used to be very pro-immigration but considering the situation, only an absolute fool would support this. It's probably the single biggest factor among the various crises facing this country that we can control to fix things. Only Trudeau is standing in the way of common sense and relief.
I think Canadians are pro immigration. We are against fraud.
I was saying boo urns
The sad newsflash here is that unless we fix the cost of having kids, this is a constant downward spiral.
It already gone from what I've seen and heard lately
It feels like instead of outsourcing all our production over seas, companies just paid off politicians and imported that labour here to devalue the workforce. Aka it’s like if instead of an Indian call centre in India, they just import all the Indians here and run it out of Toronto, while using that excessive labour surplus to suppress wages.
Immigration is a big business
When the fuck did we had a consensus on anything?
Ya we lost the consensus on immigration a long time ago. Our immigration system is so broken.
I personally don’t really care where someone is from, or even what their politics are. Can you speak the language(s) and are you coming with enough education to participate in the economy?
Most Canadians are not opposed to immigration, Without immigration, the population would decline. It all comes down to the numbers. In my opinion, 2015 immigration numbers were reasonable. We need to go back to that.
To be honest I don’t understand the obsession behind wanting to have such a large population. Just because you have a large population does not mean your economy is going to do well. The transition to a lower population will have its challenges but it doesn’t mean a country is doomed. The Government just doesn’t want be the ones to implement any “non-favourable” strategies that would help mitigate some of the ‘damage’ such as increasing retirement age or forcing businesses to come up with innovative labour saving technology (God forbid!)
Norway: 5.5 million people. GDP per capita: Around $89,000, sovereign wealth fund of over $1.4 trillion. Bangladesh: 170 million people. GDP per capita: Around $2,500.
The issue for Canada is that the boomers are retiring and leaving a demographic hole in the work force. My biggest criticism of the immigration policy is that it doesn't focus on our needs in the work force - doctors, nurses, trades and so forth. If we had more focused immigration we could cut the absolute numbers down until we built our infrastructure up to support higher numbers.
There is very little GDP growth coming from Tim Hortons workers and Uber drivers. If anything, that's just generating more profits for non-Canadian owned companies. You get more pressure on housing, more pressure on health care, more pressure on education, and more pressure on the justice system. You get more civil protests about things that don't affect Canada, and you lose any sense of Canadian identity. Soon, you see the "new" population having more voting and political power than the legacy population. Municipal councils are soon over represented by the "new" population, then provincial, and finally federal. Laws are passed, Bills are amended. Soon, the country becomes a satellite of another. All to ensure Blackrock keeps making money on the real estate and that the banks continue to rank in profits from new mortgages.
So let it decline.
That immigration is necessary for population maintenance is a farce. We all rent/buy the same houses, drive the same cars on the same roads, and are taxed in the same dollars. And we have roughly the same goals and aspirations as other humans on planet Earth. Immigrants bolstering population means that some cohort of foreigners are willing to accept a set of conditions that the average Canadian will not, whether for the purposes of living, raising a family, etc. The first principles question is: what part of the condition set in Canada today makes it untenable for citizens to raise families and grow communities?
> Without immigration, the population would decline Well ya, that's a great position to be in. Love it. Gimme some of that... then the environment can start healing, and our plethora's of crises would abate.
The world population is still increasing. Immigration only affects the population of the nation.
Exactly, when the system is abused to scam and prey on unskilled people in developing countries and to the detriment of those in Canada, it's time to change the system.
There are two major reasons we need to bring in more than we were in 2015. One is that businesses are asking for TFWs because they're not willing to pay a living wage and Canadians won't work for below a living wage because they can't live on it. The Liberals have acquiesced to business in this. Personally, I would slash 80% of TFWs and only retain them in critical industries where we really need them. Second is the baby boomers are almost all retired now. They're not making the big wages they have been and they're not paying income taxes, CPP, or EI anymore, and not spending as much which includes sales taxes. At the same time, the baby boomers are starting to lean more heavily on healthcare. This will continue to increase over the next couple of decades until they pass on. Normally the baby boomer healthcare would be paid for by the taxes paid by their children, but Canadians didn't have enough children to increase the population enough to generate the money needed. Also, the Canadian children that do exist are not enough to replace all the baby boomers. So what can the government do to keep revenue from declining when it's spending more on healthcare than ever? Immigration. Sure, it would be best if we only brought in the best quality immigrants, but not enough people are interested in coming to Canada. So the Liberals relaxed the requirements to make up the difference. Peter Zeihan isn't convinced Canada is bringing in enough immigrants to keep the social services paid for. If it wasn't for the housing crunch, I think Canadians would be fine with more immigrants. The problem is, we stopped building large amounts of new housing back in the 80's when Mulroney canceled the federal home building programs. If we'd continued to build more housing over the past 40 years, we wouldn't have a housing crunch today. So pick your poison: Either let healthcare and other social services collapse, or watch housing become expensive. It's too bad the PMs we've had over the past 40 years didn't have the foresight to see the problem the baby boomer retirement would cause and have kept building housing, training construction workers, etc. But here we are.
Although I agree with the situation, I strongly disagree that mass immigration is the answer. It's a temporary fix to a mismanaged social security and healthcare system. Our government has printed so much money (issuance of debt) and is spending more money servicing the debt instead of spending money where it's needed. Add to that policies that favor housing investments - and the opportunity costs of ignoring new business investments - is starting (some would argue this has been ongoing for 25 years) to take effect. The real issue is that we don't have a viable economy. Flipping homes and putting all investment capital in a non-productive asset class is a massive problem that has been exacerbated by the LPC in the last 8 years. Bringing in more people to boost the tax revenue without growing our economy does not work long-term. A productive and healthy economy would have more capacity the address the social security and healthcare burden of the boomers against a declining population. I would argue that shortsighted understanding of the issue has lead to a 'fix all' solution in mass immigration. It's a temporary and easy fix, and just happens to enrich the wealthy housing investors (i.e. most of our politicians) at the same time. The real brilliance of their social coup was convincing Canadians that mass immigration, and not policies that are favorable to our broader economic wellbeing, was the solution. Just some thoughts.
It a numbers game. No matter how productive you are you cannot overcome a population imbalance. Just ask the Japanese of the Koreans both highly productive but are looking at a demographic demise. They are trying to get more productive but they cannot make up for the lack in population growth. Our current economic system was born post WW11 and relied on lots of consuming young people to power the economy. This is a problem for all the rich countries as we don’t have babies anymore. No matter how productive you get if you are not growing your population you are doomed. That said what has happened since the end of Covid was reckless and mismanaged. I want Canada to get back to a system that is fair to Canadians and potential immigrants.
> No matter how productive you are you cannot overcome a population imbalance. No matter how productive you get if you are not growing your population you are doomed. This is a really stupid take and completely wrong. Having a bunch of old people is not a huge issue. It just means they can't be prioritized in favor of young people, and they have to do with less, and rely more on their children. They will still live long dignified lives into old age, but they simply can't live in luxury like they expected. That will be dissapointing, but not doom. It also means western governments needs to prioritize their own population over the rest of the world. This means less aid, less wasted tax payer money, less money wasted on non productive work like art and culture, which see massive amounts of government funding. Artists and musicians who can't survive on their own income will instead have to work as care workers or similar. Less expensive international projects. Less money on refugees. The changes to society that are necesarry as result of a low birth rate are also the only changes that will actually raise the birth rates. Westerners will be a bit poorer, and will have to rely on family to a larger degree than the last 50 years, which will in itself encourage increased birth rates. And that is completely fine and not really a big deal. Its far worse to permanently demographically replace our populations with completely foreign cultures and religions with a less than favorable historic track record in terms of civilisation. That is literally demographic suicide and the end of the west as far as we understand it. Those who are replacing us will not carry the western torch.
This is correct. Unfortunately, they've managed to convince nations that only endless population growth is viable and every other solution is doom. It's quite the social coup they've managed.
I did the math at one point and I think during COVID 460k Canadians were retiring but we were in the 200k ish PR immigrants.
The Good Ship Risk has sailed.
Every liberal and NDP MP should be shaking in their boots. Even my family members who have voted Liberal/NDP their entire lives will be voting Conservative. Will Conservatives fix this country? Who knows, but the Liberals have their foot to the mat, full throttle towards a cliff and the NDP is in the passenger seat blowing them.
immigration is not an issue - - how its implemented with loopholes that allow people to cheat the system - overall immigration levels - esp work visas - too many people from one country - no more than 4% should be from a single country - the type of skilled workers being selected
post-nation state
The old guard fight wars so that the next generation won't experience the horrors. Then the old guard die off, so that the next generation who never knew war, never talked about war, can fight a new war all their own...
There was no "post war consensus" on immigration, not with Canadian citizens. Canada's immigration act was changed without any input from Canadian citizens. It was largely changed due to pressure and relentless lobbying from the [Canadian Jewish Congress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Jewish_Congress) and they succeeded and it was altered without our consent. Had it gone to a vote and Canadians told the truth about what those changes would bring it never would have passed, not in a million years.
Seeing how people in other places, even other Western countries, respond to immigration versus how we do, even our more conservative citizens - I have always been and remain quite proud that we are still more open overall. I think the real threat to this comes from the closing down of discourse on both more polarized ends of the political spectrum - whether it's those using the past as an excuse for bad behaviour today, or those nostalgic for a particular piece of our past because they dislike how things are now. I actually spent some time[ pontificating on that](https://www.mustardclementine.com/p/our-future-lies-in-taking-pride-in-our-present), in honour of Canada Day.