You would legit have more opportunities in life (education, early stimulation and simulating experiences in general, [likely] educated parents, medical care, extra-curriculars, lower economic stress, better nutrition, less exposure to teratogens and environmental stressors, living in safer areas, even your way of thinking and the habits you've been exposed to...) and have access to better networks from school and family if your parents are well-off, though. And you don't have tobback-support your parents / stress about the day they'll move in with you at cost to you. Let's not pretend that generational poverty isn't a massive impediment to success while the opposite is true for generational wealth (with room for exceptions, of course, but these don't disprove the rule).
What does this have to do with the above comment? Like the point was why peopled assume generational wealth, not saying that generational wealth isn't helpful or anything
Ok, you explain to me how my comment is irrelevant, then. Parents' success =/ not to child's success. Go. Preferably without more petulant downvoting :)
Clarification: because you will literally have had a better QOL and likelihood of success 90/100 times if your parents are wealthy. It's not a wild assumption, and no one is assuming the parents are wealthy. The parents are wealthy. The commenter said so.
What is success? As someone from a wealthy family knowing other wealthy families we normally would measure it based on individual success, of which there isn’t actually many at all.
Most lose the wealth within 1-2 generations because they did not become successful THEMSELVES.
The fact is due to my family I wouldn’t need to work if I didn’t have to, but guess what? I’ve got 2 companies I’ve built up from scratch without help from family, and a day trade as my main source of income, again something I did and learnt on my own.
Reason I started it first company?
Because as a 6yr experienced dev I got turned down for a job, and reason was they needed more blacks to join the organisation so no job for me even though they would have liked me.
Same with multiple other companies that I decided to start own instead as was the easier way.
Now I employee others and make a good living for myself, enough to maintain lifestyle even without families money.
I also outsource as much as possible as a I refuse to support any and all black owned companies and people in the country after their racism towards me that I felt heavily for the 2yr period was looking for work as a mid level software engineer, even junior positions didn’t want me due to my skin colour! This was before it went mad and everyone wanted to be a dev, so there weren’t many positions to begin with!
Before that overseas I even worked with Microsoft and Oracle, didn’t mean shit here all because of my skin colour.
And due to that I hold a deep resentment against every black person in this country, I wanted to be a full time senior software engineer after few more years in industry but instead was forced to do things on my own because of the racism here against white people.
You're bringing nothing but a pedantic baked red herring without any backing from evidence that isn't an anecdote. My observation extends to every race on the planet. Wealth = opportunity for success.
"Most lose the wealth" care to back that? Because I can back my claims with real research and stats. Do you just mystically lose the numerous intangible benefits that I specifically focused on, too?
And this: "The fact is due to my family I wouldn’t need to work if I didn’t have to, but guess what? I’ve got 2 companies I’ve built up from scratch without help from family" - this is just woefully lacking in self-awareness, and I'm betting the details are fantastically a la "self-made" Kardashian.
You do realize that you just told me you had a wonderful safety net? This isn't available to others. And you're just completely ignoring or are unaware of the benefits of your upbringing. If you're actually talking on what I said and not your own projections, then you're here yelling about how rich parents =/ success because you have rich parents and are successful???? Wake up.
Edit: Aaaaand now you're laying your ?failure? at the feet of tens of millions of human beings because they are black. But... You are humble-braggingly fine and list the opportunities you have had? "Forced to do my own thing" oh yeah like the other 45% of under-un-employed people in this country? Yeah, no... you should really see someone about that.
That it would be logical to assume at least some of the success to a lot of the success of a person with rich parents is down to their parents' money, even indirectly. The above comment suggests rich parents (generational wealth - which can include money and inheritance, yes, but also less tangible assets like connections, experiences, opportunities for networking, status, socioeconomic conditions, medical care, education, knowledge/ ways of doing, etc,etc, etc that come with it ) isn't a huge reason for their children's' success. Having well-to-do parents demonstratably is a huge factor in success (not discrediting hard work where it's been put in, but come on).
No we really don’t. We also don’t think you all own the land. Fact is that most black people who become successful have worked for it. They have to. I myself hold a Masters degree but I reported into a white male executive who only had a matric. At the end of the day, those who appointed him know why he’s there, but I also didnt get to where I am through BEE. I worked for it and studied hard.
Working on a B-BEE requirement for a customer.
You'd be surprised the impact it has. On paper I agree with the idea. But for this company (MAJOR company that shall remain unnamed) tenders are awarded with a Points Preference System of 80/20.
This means that if your company that is a level one B-BBEE contributor quotes R1 million rand more than the next guy that is not B-BEE registered, you still get awarded the tender. So companies that do not want to share their profits by just giving 50% of their business to someone just to get the level 1 status, are starting to appoint more people of colour to gain access to these Tenders.
I am one of those people that do a job that requires a degree, I only have matric. I have worked physically my back into permanent issues to get where I am. In the real world, degrees are nice on paper, experience counts more, don't judge someone just because you have a masters and your boss doesn't.
My point to all this.
Even though B-BBEE makes sense on paper and I support it, it is also 30 years into the process and only a select few are befitting. Companies are no longer appointing personnel on merit, experience and work ethics, but rather trying to reach their diversity targets to get the sweet tenders. Note that to get extra points on your B-BBEE score, the training, opportunities and jobs you give people of colour counts as well. This brings benefits that Government provide to the company like tax write offs.
So long story short, tenders are awarded for much higher prices because of B-BBEE, no quality check is done for what is provided, hurting the infrastructure and companies are hiring based on skin colour.
B-BBEE is unfair, for ALL colored people. Hire on merit, experience and award tenders on price and quality == much better country.
That's my issue with B-BBEE.
Welp, until the massive amount of capital held by white folks is actually available for investment into black businesses and communities starts getting voluntarily deployed for that purpose, you’ll need the government to step in. And if the government has to step in, the solution always sucks. But we need something because it’s not a good look when I bring black American investors over to Cape Town, for example, and the startup networking events are 80% white folks. Really highlights how without white people willingly investing private capital into black entrepreneurs, nothing will change.
I swear, it’s so disingenuous when I hear white South Africans cry about crime, poverty, “dumb” voters etc. Like, all that shit exists because of how much the people who own capital and land in the country just don’t want to share wealth via investment. The current state could be dramatically improved overnight if those who owned capital were actually willing to invest private money into black owned businesses.
Capital seeks returns. No way you will convince any investor to chose X investment over Y with the argument "yeah the return is lower but it's a BEE owned enterprise". In the same manner, you won't convince any white person to pass up a higher return on investment due to it being a BEE cetrtified operation .
It really is as simple as that. As soon as some developer starts gentrifying KwaMashu C-section, you watch the white capital start snapping property up, "Ive always loved KweMantchoo, it's so cultural and vibrant!" - Stacey, 44
Besides that - drastic changes in the perceived "value" of a typically undesirable investment, such as the example above, requires a huge co-ordinated effort from the public and private sector. That's a hard bargain when there is an abundance of undeveloped land surrounding such places.
All of this is to say: Trust me, white people aren't withholding their investments to spite black people. We are just as greedy for returns as any other race.
No, you absolutely do NOT need the government to step in. Trust the market. The market is a way more efficient engine of transformation than inefficient top down Comrades.
Quite different tbh because people who claim this as reasoning “assume” richness in terms on monetary value only.. where what they mean is the ability not to have to worry about survivability as top of priority and that’s is sadly almost always true for most beyond just white people and includes even white people(in the struggle to get going) these days too.
Then there the inescapable reality that SA remains beholden to capitalists of the past which includes business culture(the “culture fit”). These things we, I’m not white, assume everyone starts with but that’s a lie.
Then there is monetary part which is the structural and nature of a capitalist society especially late stage capitalism. This is also why entry salaries can be less than independent survival CoL salary as an entry if not unpaid to simply thin the applicants out to the “right people” and then claim .. it’s to determine who really wants it more.. not true.. it weeds out who has insufficient support.
You start appreciating family support be it indirect or direct, lack of cultural deficits, etc more as you consider what some others get going with in life which is why the older I get the lesser I agree with right wingers and their individualism push.
Yes please, his circle sucks big time... I'm an educated Coloured and definitely came across those BEE finger pointers, but I give them no time. They are mostly loosers anyways...
That's your friend, making excuses. It's like most cricketers I've met as a scorer - system harms players of colour far more. God help the clowns that said Duhan left because of quotas/would otherwise play for the Boks, because THERE ISN'T ONE FOR THEM. That's how far they've come. 9/15 to 11/15 starters.
Some people grew up with a superiority complex and talent that couldn't match it. In fact, some even have this absurd need to pay a victim card that is completely blank.
In fact, they need to read more from Steve Biko and do their part. We need to be less superior, black people shouldn't feel inferior and we should continue to do our thing and speak openly. It's one thing we have that other countries will dance around. We can swear like sailors one day and hug each other the next.
Honestly, I work for a big company, VERY culturally diverse from the bottom straight to the directors. Every person is qualified and competent and definitely not there because of their culture. Your friends are small minded and ignorant, treat them with mercy and explain your view, it must be really sad being stuck in what they perceive as their reality, how small minded, shame
Hear, hear. BBBEE was made far stricter due to continuous shortcuts being taken in the name of ease and profit. If it is difficult to deal with now, you know where to look for someone to blame- I promise you that professionals with the same university and experiences are just as good as you are (I speak as a white person here) regardless of colour. In fact, it shouldn't be the first think you ask yourself when you meet a person either. Not a good way to build trust and confidence with colleagues if you judge them by the colour of their skin/ethnity before ability
The success of middle class people of colour is despite BEE, not because of it. BEE only favours a tiny number of people and makes them extraordinarily wealthy - along with the investors milking said BEE - this serves to reinforce the same bias that your 'friends' have because they're oblivious to the thousands of hard working people of colour who just don't want to actively show how successful they are.
Be careful of observer bias also - we tend to notice the things we want to notice.
I give people respect based on how good they are at their job, not the colour of their skin. More often than not, people get the job because they can do the job. Tired of Dom poeste who invalidate achievements of people who have worked hard to get to where they are.
I see many good points here, but another I feel needs to be mentioned is that the BEE system has been gamed, and is still being gamed to maintain certain people:
A practical example is the Department Of Justice call centre in the early 2000s - actual company names changed because you know...
On the Systems Administration & Support side, you had A$T doing the Sys Admin work including the case logging system and most of the Managing (100% white) and A$T Networks (equity compliant & diverse).
Unfortunately with A$T being where all the White Managers and Directors camped, A$T Networks had to be forced out through a campaign of blatant sabotaging of records and case statuses in the case logging system, revoking e-mail, phone, and computer access etc. all to subvert A$T Networks from doing their job of supporting the nation's legal system, so that a 100% Black owned & staffed Networking Service Provider could be brought in to balance out the White top heavy A$T.
And the DOJ Call Centre was not an isolated case, it was more the rule than the norm, and certainly not the exception.
Just look at the mechanics of the last Di$chem racial hiring scandal - directly caused by the sprawling mess of it's very White middle & upper management trying to preserve their own status quoe.
Most people alive in the work force today saw or experienced directly or by family proxy, the effect of the initial implementation of BEE in the 1990s when the White people up top scrambled to preserve their top and middle management golfing buddy clique status quoes, by laying off droves of qualified and experienced White staff to hire on Equity candidates. Keeping the companies White Top-heavy.
Unfortunately, it's going to be an insurmountable task to audit the diversity makeup and justifications for this makeup, of every business in SA....
...So this "Gaming of BEE" is going to keep on happening, and BEE is going to continue to generate it's own worst publicity, and when coupled with nepotism / inherited positions, it's going to continue to harm the economy to some degree.
Ive been doing work for a large SA employer for a number of years and the amount of senior/executive roles created with creative titles is astonishing. Its so obvious these positions were created to be filled with poc. Some of them are great and others are middle of the road, but ive seen established business heads set up their strategy to completely avoid some of them as stakeholders due to their incompetence. Like you say when youve received your advantage you have to make it work. Doesn’t mean it is effective for the business as a whole, and whole departments were moved down a level in the org structure to make way for these poc which is bad for morale.
Reading between the lines, it seems like this particular company had no or few people of colour at an exclusive level which itself is a bad thing. Diversity is at a board level is a good thing. Also having don’t forget that having no people of colour at an exec level is also incredibly demoralizing for the work force. Everyone wants to see someone with a backstory similar to their own succeed.
Lastly, it might just be that your company is unlucky or bad in recruitment. There are lots of very competent people in the country, of all races, that for some or other reason end up marginalized. Some companies get it right and benefit from improving on legacy incompetence.
Reading between the lines you’ve missed the point of my comment.
There are success stories. There are also failures. Representation is nice. Competence is essential. Theres nothing worse for people looking for a rolemodel only to see them fail after they were chosen for their identity rather than their competence.
It’s no use shifting the blame of executive failure to HR, the person was brought in to take responsibility for business success, not HR. And the whole reason we have these policies is because there were imbalances of representation at the top, duh!
But this could’ve happened anywhere then?
I’ve seen many white executives hired only to leave a few months later with a nice package, because they have fokol idea what they’re doing.
This isn’t race dependent this is the companies incompetence in hiring the right people for the job.
Ha. Seems like we’re both not reading properly then. My point was if your person was selected properly, from the abundance of very qualified poc in the country, you would not have this view or problem. It’s a specific selection problem not a general problem and it stems from whoever made the appointment. I’ve worked for a multinational professional services firm and top tier listed SA company. I can tell you that incompetence comes in all shades.
BEE didn't write the exam for him and he's clearly a qualified doctor, but BEE may have caused an equally or even more qualified white person to lose out on the job.
And if I need to go to the hospital for life saving surgery, I would want the highest qualified doctor in charge of my life, not the one that was chosen because we need to "represent the population"
How do you get to the point where you don't need inclusive policies? Ironically, the answer is "with inclusive policies."
Even considering the "disservice" to you as a citizen with regards to the perceived quality of work done by a black doctor vs a white one, you haven't taken into account the butterfly effect of it all. The doc sends his kids to a better school, they get better jobs, buy houses where they grew up, create demand for jobs themselves, reduce unemployment and crime etc..
We got to start somewhere, or live with animosity and division forever .
I agree we had to start somewhere 20+ years ago, but it's not only a "disservice" to the common citizen. The positives you mention are at the expense of another race, this is the primary reason it's not taken seriously. It's also very selective in who is "previously disadvantaged", if you're born an Asian before 1994, you are eligible for BEE redress, born after 1994, you're shit out of luck. Not the case for blacks of course.
Also, do we really believe that rewarding people with highly technical / impactful positions in our workplaces just because they were born with black skin is going to stimulate growth? Are we not in the middle of a major energy crisis? Do we not see this failure extend to other industries, health care, finance, government etc etc. Corruption is at an all-time high.
If anything, ironically, BEE has turned out to be a disadvantage for the future generation of the previously disadvantage.
BEE can provide opportunities at the expense of better qualified white people - there's just no getting away from that and I'm sure for many this is an unpopular downvotable comment. Even in your example, a white person who may have worked harder/got better results didn't get a spot at medical School simply because of representation and the colour of their skin. You see this in the corporate world all the time where a black person is hired or promoted over a white person. This is not to say that they are not just as good or even better in terms of talent and ability - they very well might be. But because skin colour and achieving a metric are often driving those decisions, it's easy to reduce the success down to that, and not ability. I don't see how this is going to change until BEE is abolished (can't see that happening any time soon). I work with alot of black professionals that want to succeed based on merit but don't know if that's the case. On the other hand many just accept that this practice is what it is and make the most of it.
I beg to differ, my experience in the corporate environment, has taught me that BEE means very little for big companies as I still see multiple white people getting positions and promotions over people of color, and in the last 3 cases I have seen, the people of color were better qualified with more experience, but the hiring manager said before the interview he was already going to hire the white guy.
If you want to get rid of BEE, then you need to get rid of race and names on CV. If you want the hiring process to be based off qualifications and experience, then you have to remove any ability to determine the person's race.
2 years back an IT related position opened up. I of 2 of the people that applied, 1 coloured guy had 20 years experience in IT, 3 years experience as a manager, the other guy(white) had no experience in IT, had never worked on a pc, wouldn't be able to install software, let alone hardware, but he regularly went out for drinks with the hiring manager. Guess who got the job, not the coloured guy.
Edit: government jobs is mainly were BEE is as you say, trying to fill race quotas, but rarely at private companies, in my experience.
Thanks for sharing your experience. My experience of working for more than one large JSE listed companies has been very different. It goes something like this: I need a resource to work on an important project that is tracking late, and the hiring manager tells me they have a candidate (a colored guy!) but he cant hire that guy because HR are insisting that it needs to be a black person. I'm honestly not sure why or how we now differentiate between different shades of previously disadvantaged people, or what the metric is that they are trying to hit, but this is a true story. Ultimately, when they find that guy and he eventually gets hired, the initiative is already running very late and not producing its benefits, but more than this, the poor guys capabilities are being questioned even before he arrived. There has to be a better way?
Joburg is a different fish, the bee that side, yeah, it's too much. Buddy of mine couldn't get an interview for 2 years till I told him to change his surname on his CV. He had the whitest surname despite being coloured.
The answer/better way:
Remove BEE, it creates animosity and problems of its own.
Focus on improving education in communities for people of color.
Our government tends to take the approach of lowering standards required to pass instead of improving the standard of education to raise a better nation.
Again just my experience, but better education solves so much problems.
100% And this is the real problem. People are fighting with each other based on race-based regulations that the government is effecting, all the while the vast majority of our population are poor, uneducated and unable to gain meaningful employment. At a macro level, the government are failing to create opportunities, and BEE is not the answer to that. Better education, better basic infrastructure (transport, rail, electricity), better control of our borders, and unshackling business so they can be more competitive etc etc, ultimately creates opportunities. But yet we always want to take the simple/easy path.
I agree that BEE creates animosity and problems. However, as someone who lived in Johannesburg, disagree that it's somehow worse there.
Firstly, black people are the majority of the population living in Johannesburg (and SA). Therefore, you are naturally going to encounter more black people in the workplace for that reason.
Secondly, it's the economic hub of the country and tends to offer higher salaries at a more affordable cost of living. This tends to attract people from all over SA there, including people from all race groups who tend to be educated, highly driven, and ambitious as there are a lot of big corporates operating in Jhb. Some of the best and brightest in the country. It is, therefore, a highly competitive job market. Even people with degrees and experience struggle to get in because of how competitive the market is. I know of black graduates with STEM masters degrees who are unemployed and struggling for work.
From my experience, your proven experience (especially if you come from the same industry) matters more there, and in Jhb, your salary also isn't dictated by your race. You get paid based on factors such as the job level and your experience regardless of your race.
When I worked in Pretoria, it was different, I was earning less than my younger white coworker, who was straight out of varsity. ( I had five years of experience at the time). Her salary was R20 000 whilst mine was R9 000 before tax, and she started with the company two months before me. We both had the same qualifications and job title. She was a nice person, though, so I didn't resent her, but I did feel resentful towards the management of the company.
This does happen, but it's not because of BBBEE, but rather because of common misunderstandings and misapplications of BBBEE.
I say this as someone deeply involved with the EE practices in one of SA 's largest public companies.
The fact is, the legislation and constitution are actually quite explicit about not hampering the rights of non-designated groups (eg white males, like myself), and this is very much in line with international standards on this front. (Which is also why attempts to get international community/courts to condemn it have failed repeatedly)
That said, there are many companies who still do things the wrong way, which is where the misunderstanding often grows.
But the fact is there is nothing at all in the legislation that justifies or encourages what you describe in your first sentence.
That's an interesting viewpoint but I'm speaking from more than a decade of my own real-life/personal experience. Tell me which company it is you work for where I'll get hired purely on the basis of my skill/talent/experience because I definitely want to consider working there. What you refer to may not be legislated, but the practice is to offer roles and opportunities to people where the distinguishing factor is skin colour or simply not to hire until the person with the required skin colour is found.
Generalizations, are generally not great. As a white man, seeing a successful person of colour doesn't automatically trigger a "how did he do it" response in me. Although I do hear what you're saying. I too know whites like this. They are usually the jealous and mediocre ones, not personalities to aspire towards.
Do the people that say that people should be hired based on merit realise that the majority of the population is black? If we went based on the merit, it's likely that the majority of the corporate workforce would also be black. The problem is that black people in SA do not get nearly the same opportunities that white people get. So if we made sure that everyone in SA regardless of skin colour were give the same opportunities to succeed, the majority of the corporate workforce would be black because we make up the majority of the population.
How many businesses and companies do you see in SA where the majority of upper management are white or are completely white owned? A lot right? But then white people still wanna complain about BEE? Bull shit
Yeah no I think you need new friends brotherman.
BEE is not a perfect system, but no system is. I'm not educated enough to say whether or not it has been a net positive or negative, but even I can acknowledge that plenty of my past and current co-workers who are people of color have gotten to where they are due to hard work.
I feel like anyone who thinks like your friends do, is completely out of touch with reality, and needs to maybe get a job somewhere else that isn't their uncles vape shop.
A few of my (older) family members said shit like this when we talked about my studies. Sure someone might have an easier time getting in because of bee, but from there on we're suffering through the same course.
The funny thing is.... They don't have an easier time getting in even with Bee. They still have to meet requirements, they just also get considered, which is something that still shocks people.
Also their hurdles getting to that point are why it exists. Its going to be easy to do well if you have 2 supportive parents, food in your belly and a class size under 50 taught by teachers that are well looked after.
This is often seen as an excuse but yeah pretty much. Also No therapy to help you navigate all that. You simply have to be grateful to be alive, work hard for your dreams because everyone depends on you.
Not really. Black students do get pushed through to maintain demographics proportionality of graduates, and the courses themselves have been watered down to accommodate them. MBCHB ans LLB courses in particular are not what they were.
If students were getting pushed through a course despite failing it, or if courses are watered down that degree would most likely lose any international accreditation. Most faculties get moderated by national councils who have international standards.
Because subtly BEE influence everything. I have sat through many corporate employment discussions. They find a candidate that matches the role perfectly, but gets pointed out that he is white, then they select the next candidate. Almost 80% of these discussions had this result, the other 20% was selected because the team they were assigned to was mostly black.
Saying your success has nothing to do with BEE is like a white person saying they never benefited from white privilege. You may not be a BEE direct hire, but your role, training, studies, promotion, scholarship, etc. Had to apply BEE rules for that decision, thus, you will never really know if you benefit from it.
The sad part is that many of the candidates i still follow that was declined their position due to BEE rules became industry leaders - in other countries, sad loss for SA.
People of colour are more likely to get bursaries when whites don't. Marks play a big role in your successfulness, but so does finance. I applied for uni, got in and did my first year. My grades were good. Didn't have the finances. I applied for nsfas, and they turned me down without giving me a valid reason, which btw, they must do according to law. I sent multiple emails asking about it, but they never got back to me. I'm not one to discriminate, but it feels disheartening to work hard, get nothing, and see people scrape by with their grades, while not have to worry about finances.
My white coworker, who is a single mum, managed to get NSFAS funding for her daughter, who is studying teaching. From what recent grads have told me, they tend to give preference to teaching and nursing qualifications since there is a shortage of skills in those professions.
The issue is people assume that if they are not successful in jobs, bursary application or accepted in college, it is because they are not black.
Do you know how many black people are rejected everyday?
Do you know how many colored people are rejected every single day? Do you know how many Indians are rejected every single day?
We just need to realize that it's not any races fault that you or anyone is not getting what they need, every race has its own struggles.
We simply need to focus on getting the sitting government out this coming elections.
Can you elaborate on these statistics?
Edit: Why are you downvoting this instead of simply sharing your statistics, surely it will merely strengthen your point wouldn't it?
B.E.E is giving people a "Leg-up". What they do from there is up to them.
B.E.E. Was/is there to level playing field and trying to reduce privilege white people experienced in past. I.e. White person would almost certainly have been picked over black person despite having equal qualifications or abilities. (Call it what you want, but there is a Bias towards white people being able to perform beter than black people)
In essence saying one never met a person who was successful because of BEE is same as saying nobody was ever successful because of white privilege!
BEE is a racist policy that discredits the hard work done by talented black people.
When I tell my friends in Zambia and Malawi about BEE, they can't believe how a racist policy can be legal.
>I am puzzled. Many of my white friends tend to reduce the success of a person of colour down to B. E. E.
Your white friends are being tools. As a PoC I do agree that BEE can be advantageous, but it's not just that all people of colour automatically benefit from BEE. Some PoC would have made it regardless of BEE, while some were definitely given a leg up (and may or may not have needed it).
>Yes the competition for whites is harder to get into medical school, but that's because we need more people of colour as doctors to represent the population.
Now here is where I differ in opinion. As a PoC I don't give a fuck what race the person is who's treating me. All that matters is that they're good at being a doctor.
The fact that we have BEE requirements for certain critical professions where there are shortages boggles my mind.
I don't actually know how true that last part even is. It just seems so easy to just blame B. E. E.
I had a girl who was a mechanical engineer graduate come to work with me in IT and complained that there are no jobs for white people, that was about 10 years ago. She's been in I. T ever since and did extremely well..... My take is she was just not meant to be in that field. No need to blame being white.
No definitely not someone who still thinks like that should get a reality check but then again most black people think when you're white and successful its white privilage.
I dont think anyone has priviledge in SA
I am non-white and I had to fight and claw my way to middle class. Did I get NSFAS? Yes, I did. Was I expected to study on a hungry stomach? Yes! Even which University I could attend was influenced by my poverty. The vast majority of non-white middle class fought their way to where they are now. BEE is something for the elite few who have the right connections.
Also, getting a leg up in life is not wrong. Whether it is through BEE or your lovely middle class upbringing (which helps you make the right social connections - ask me how I know) is the same thing. However, MOST non-white South Africans literally only got free schooling and NSFAS as a leg up in life - again, ask me how I know.
Interesting how there was no rich mandela, mbeki, zuma or even ramaphosa, but suddenly after holding office they and their families are all wealthy. Dont tell me BEE did not benefit those bastards. As for ramaphose being rich, do some homework, his money came from stealing from the anc....
I work for a company that has zero b. E. E nonsense.
They hire and fire accordingly. Within the business though there are rotten potatoes, whenever a black person is promoted, they question his merits without any backing at all. They expect other races to be promoted with no questions asked. Luckily the hard work of everyone is what gets them promoted.
If that kind of success could be attributed to BEE then the policy would have been a fantastic success in the sense that it would have had a very broad impact (a great thing!).
However, I'm inclined to agree with another commenter's conclusion that it has mostly benefited a small group disproportionately.
If anybody has read any studies on the impact of BEE, please share.
In my view it gives them a reason to explain why Black and Brown people are more successful than them. It's driven by an inherent supremacist ideology.
What they won't speak about however is how for nearly 5 decades White South Africans were given rights denied to Blacks and Brown South Africans based on nothing other than their skin colour.
As a result of those rights they still enjoy the benefits today, this is something those racists conveniently overlook.
Ignore these types...you won't convince them.
I think a lot of people have the potential talent/ability to reach that level of success and it's only by opportunity where you see who shines through ? Prior to BEE, it was more difficult to get the opportunity to stand out.
So BEE gives people of colour the platform to excel - whether they reach success or not, that's on the person to actually perform.
Your friends blaming BEE are trying to shift responsibility onto someone else as to why they're not "as successful".
Always take accountability and try your best. Blaming someone else just takes the control out of your hands and makes you feel powerless.
BEE was designed to uplift the previously disadvantaged. If you were part of a previously disadvantaged group and you made a success of yourself between the years of 1998 - present, then it’s impossible that you did not benefit from it. Even if you tried to not benefit from it you did. Either directly or indirectly. Sadly that’s called life. You can’t have segregational economic empowerment and be a rags to riches story.
I work in a very diverse office of all really hard workers, im actually one of only two whites in my department of 8, Im an Engineer but I also handle our entire company IT and a portion of the BEE. We needed another junior engineer as our workload is too hectic. We ended up hiring a dude based on colour to assist our BEE scorecard over 2 other guys equally qualified but with work experience. He is the most useless clown and because of the BEE spend contributing to your scoring his salary is on par with mine with the same qualification 9 years less experience and about 1/4 of the workload which he doesnt get through and needs help from the rest of the department. I am 100% against this kind of BEE.
One dude has soured all of BEE for me.
This reads as more of an exposé on your choice in friends than it does on the perceptions of “most” people.
And the way you say most people, then clarify that you actually mean white people (YOUR bloody chommies btw), while not thinking that most people are NOT white - low-effort, clicky post trying to get racist shit going.
Why do we need more people of color as doctors to represent the population? It's hypocritical to say we want a non-racist and non-sexist society, but we make our choices based on race or sex when it should be based on merit and merit alone imo. Also, regardless if the colored guy passed his medical final exam on his own, if he was selected above another candidate based on the color of his skin that makes him a beneficiary of BEE whether you like it or not, it doesn't make him a bad doctor but sugarcoating it doesn't change the fact that he benefitted from bee. The fact that BEE is enshrined into each and every sector of our current society may be the reason that your friends view BEE the way they do, but we don't know what your friends think so maybe ask them directly, and as someone else already mentioned, you should maybe find new friends.
Agree with this 100%. Any outcome other than the merits of the individuals skills and abilities for the sake of "diversity" is by definition a benefit obtained due to another factor - such as BBE in this case. If the outcome is that a doctor obtained their position cause they were the most qualified, and that doctor happens to the black, then awesome! Im all for it. But sadly, in my own circle of friends who became doctors ( and who had the matric marks to back ) were not evaluated on a level playing field at the time and barely got in. So no I disagree with OP, equality of outcomes lead to vastly worse results than equality of opportunities.
Yes and no. The simple answer is that we need medical services in every part of the country and unfortunately there are parts of the country that people of some races are simply unwilling to live in. So, to get a better distribution of medical service, we need more diversity in the medical field. Doctors and specialists in particular.
It makes sense what you say, but I think this is highly debatable. Let's say the colored doctor in OP's scenario qualified aa a doctor but refuses to work in the Cape flats for example, or Soweto, what have we achieved then?
Might happen but they are far more likely to work in the Cape Flats than a white doctor. Likewise, a black doctor is far more likely to work in Soweto than a coloured or white doctor. I think you are right in the sense that there wouldn’t be a 100% hit rate but it’s still an improvement. The flip side is that just because you are a poc doesn’t mean you must live or work in these areas. Absolutely nobody would complain if more white doctors decided to do so.
My nephew (white) is a young doctor at Baragwanath and applied to specialize but was turned down because of racial quotas. So know he's contemplating moving somewhere abroad to further his studies. This entire model is unsustainable in the long run imo.
The doctor maybe got his medical place on lower attainment, less distinctions than the other applicant. Happened in my child’s year. There is a suspicion of professionals from a certain disastrous era called Outcomes Based Education where they were not allowed to be failed. I don’t want any of those people anywhere near me, medically. BEE ensures that hiring and promotion in the corporate world is based on colour not merit or experience.
Ah! The uninformed is here. So let me tell you something... there are zero people in South Africa that matriculated with OBE!
Gasp! But how can that be? Let me tell you:
Curriculums are rolled out over a few years; for example with CAPS it was:
Year 1: Gr 1-3 and Gr 10
Year 2: Gr 4-6 and Gr 11
Year 3: Gr 7-9 and Gr 12
So back around 1998 the government gave these lil white books for the schools for OBE and a third of people in Educational publishing lost their job. This was the initial roll out of OBE. There was some issues and they revised the plan with introducing the adjusted framework/curriculum called Curriculum 2005. They started with rolling it out for Gr 8’s in 2001 with the intend that they will be the first group to matriculate with it in 2005. They rolled out the Gr 9 in 2002 and then in 2003 there was no OBE curriculum for learners so they went back to the NCS. This is what they matriculated with. They then quietly shelved OBE and did a Revised NCS which had its first matrics in 2008.
This was replaced with CAPS that had its first matrics in 2014.
Thus there never was an OBE matriculant.
I lived through it as someone that was suppose to be one of the first OBE curriculum 2005 matrics. When we switched back to NCS in 2003 there were many learners that had trouble adjusting from scenario based and application questions to ‘parrot learning’ and you better use the exact wording from the textbook and there were more learners that didn’t pass grade 10 than before. But I feel the experience of both prepared me for university quite well. I also had a module at university that covered educational publishing’s history in South Africa.
Just to add to this : "disastrous era called Outcomes Based Education where they were not allowed to be failed" - You can technically fail subjects still, As long as a Portfolio is present, its been like that since I was in Matric (2008)
Except this was in tertiary. An external examiner in DENTISTRY was not allowed to fail people @ 2011. Do you know that South Africa used to lead the world in orthodontics?
that is a reality that most South Africans are ignoring. My mother in law is a business consultant and she has to deal with that every day. The things she tells us is quite scary.
BEE is South Africa's biggest economic problem... By definition, it divides the entire country into "BEE candidates" vs white people... That is the literal definition of racism. Giving preference to a specific race group and excluding another... Remember those "Slegs Blankes" signs of Apartheid? Well, they're still there... Except now, it says "Geen Blankes" and everyone is thrilled that white owned businesses are closing down, but we're all riding this economic collapse because of it.
And if you thought "Well? What's wrong with that? Blacks SHOULD get preference!"..... That's racism, you're a racist, and part of the problem we ALL face.
Racism is NOT only white people excluding black people.... Racism is ANY race group excluding another. And BEE does exactly that.
It’s because unconscious racism is ingrained in your friends brains.
If they’re comfortable enough to say that when you’re around imagine what they’re saying when you’re not around.
The irony is you will likely never meet someone whose success/wealth is solely due to (BB)BEE as there are a small minority of people who have truly benefited from (exploited) it. You do you man. As others have said, get other friends.
Lack of education is the problem and teachers being paid peanuts. A qualified pre school teacher ( the beginning of education ) at a government institution school is paid R1500 a MONTH.
???????????
Can everyone please stop talking about White, coloured and black people. And BEE stuff. I'm so sick that everything is always about racism. And then everyone starts insulting one another. I just want peace and people to accept other people for what they are. Not their colour.
U need more ppl of colour in the med section to represent the population?🤣🤣now I've heared it all man. Docs should not be about race representing S.A. makes no sense. Only the best deserve to be doctors.
Uhmmm.
When it comes to health care it's important that they reflect the country's demo.
It's simple logic and don't let your racial biases impact you from seeing why it's important.
Imagine that you are white and Afrikaans, and you never meet a doctor that looks like you and can speak your language. Especially in a country where ere the majority of people are white and Afrikaans, can you not see the importance of it?
Nope, I want to see the best doc no matter the skin colour. U the 1 been racial by saying S.A needs black doctors representing the country. Makes no sense to me.
About B.E.E how long is it going to be in place?
I would like to know if B.E.E and affirmative action really has the intended affects.
Hell who darn even knows what the intentions of these kindsa things are anymore!
It comes down to a combination of factors such as ignorance and resentment. It's also a way to discredit that person's success so that they can still feel superior to them.
As a POC and a female, even with the B.E.E. policies and having the qualifications and experience, I still struggle to get a foot in the door as opposed to someone that has none of these but are friends with the right people. I've always had to work twice as hard to prove myself to get to where I am and even then have to deal with the stereotypes.
Having worked behind the scenes in HR, I know there are some managers who will even pretend to endorse B.E.E and interview POC, only to decline them for some ridiculous criteria in order to justify why they can't fill the role with a POC. The glass ceilings still exist. So when a POC does get hired, I know that most times it's because they truly deserve it as they usually get put through the ringer by some managers who share the same attitude as your friends.
That being said, I also know a lot of white managers who don't have this attitude, and they hire people regardless of their race but rather for their experience or potential and work ethic.
I wish we could come to a stage where race is not a factor and everyone can be given equal opportunities in terms of employment. I don't believe that a person should be denied opportunities or the right to earn a living because of their skin color. (I mean, isn't this having the same mentality as the apartheid government?)
In order for that to happen, though, everyone needs to play their part, and I believe the reason why the government has doubled down and introduced more stringent regulations is because of the above mentioned practices of some hiring managers.
This is the only comment that makes sense here. We need to get rid of this delusion that people (especially white men) get hired based on merit alone because that is not reality.
BBBEE is a form of Affirmative Action legislated to correct the original form of AA which is also race (and gender, we never speak about that) based -white men hiring each other despite merit. I think at this point we all know the level of gatekeeping this has caused in SA.
BEE was meant to correct this gate keeping, however I do agree with comments pointing out that it has not quite accomplished that and instead only benefitted a few POC. But this is because BEE can be gamed and there are whole industry experts dedicated to teaching businesses how to game BBBEE laws.
The truth is that the original AA in SA has never stopped despite BEE. There are many POC that won't even get an interview no matter how qualified they are bc they are just not the right skin colour.
Also, fun fact, AA ("or diversity hiring")benefits white women the most so I always find it weird when this conversation is centred solely around POC. But that's just an aside that I'd like people to start thinking about so I'm not gonna discuss that here.
Its a stigma that the BEE system created. You see this in sports too. And the problem is that because there are “quotas” that need to be met, its difficult for people to know if the guy/gal was chosen because of competency or because of BEE. And because everyone has a self bias (i am better than the other guy) the assumption will be that he/she was chosen because of BEE.
You also see the opposite in some cases. For example a varsity friend (black) and i (white) were applying for the same job, but in the end i got appointed. Afterwards we had a discussion about it and his sentiment was that because i was white i got the job. After a few weeks at the new job i asked the people that did the interview about his interview and they said his didn’t go as well since he seemed unsure about himself and didn’t come across well.
The whole situation made me feel as if i didn’t deserve the job but in the end they hired me because i was the best person for the role.
Thats how i imagine the BEE system makes many black, yellow, pink, blue people feel. It created a stigma where people automatically assume you are a BEE hire because there are quotas and not because of your competencies.
And thats a sad reality in SA.
Because BEE is degrading to black people. It’s basically saying they can’t compete at the level of whites so they need special rules. If BEE was removed and a poc became rich no one will complain. But the truth is blurred by the fact that BEE still exists.
Because of BEE we can’t get the millions in the rurals living in poverty online with Starlink.
The poorest people can’t even get into the 20th century, let alone the 21st!
Why? Because Starlink isn’t a BEE company. Crazy mismanagement.
How will the poor ever better themselves further than simple subsistence living (at best), if they can’t educate themselves beyond planting mealies.
BEE needs to go, we should hire people based on their skills and commitments and not the colour of their skin
If Apartheid affected you why are we trying to work back to an Apartheid 2.0 rather than some positive and safe for everyone
If something bad happens and affects you it doesn't mean you get a free pass to do it too
BEE does not help people of colour. It helps black people (hence the B). It's only job is to keep the elite class elite and 60% of south Africans in poverty. Any system based on skin colour is doomed to cause corruption. And where I respect your experience and opinion, I don't think we need more "people of colour" as doctors. I think we need more South Africans of lower classes and of every cook and creed to be doctors. We as a county need to fucking forget about this racial and tribal obsession we have and just help our country men FFS.
Sorry POC is a trigger fraze for me.
You need to have skills and a natural affinity for business to be successful, they've proven by now that BEE does more harm than good, There's a term for when you exclude one race in favor of another, You would do more good for the country and the economy to include all races rather selective
b ee ee g load of crap
heres 51% you reflect light differently to that colour
its all crap beee racism etc
i just dont think you should get merit based off colour thats regressive maybe opposite in the past but no longer
not a loser just my opinion you can have the exact same business but youre not black so therefore you take an L xD beeeg load of bull
Yet black people don't equate every white persons success to apartheid's job reservation programme that saw the majority of this country alienated from every job opportunity and left to rot in minimal jobs that exploited them while earning next to nothing. On the other hand were dealing with the propaganda system that was Bantu education.
Same reason so many black people will think every white person has money. I have actually been told on more than one occasion that I must have money because I am white (when in fact I was struggling more than a lot of black okes I know).
Answered your own question, it's harder for whites to get Into medical school and get a job because of B E E, it's wrong to take away the hard work the people kf color did do and honestly I couldn't get where they are, but the BEE still made it easier on them,whites have to work harder to get to the same position so that people of color can,for lack of better wording "catch up" after the apartheid
Or there’s just a lot of competition for MBCHB and LLBs, so by logic is harder to get into. By further logic the racial make up of our population means there will be more black students doing better than white students as there are just more people in that demographic.
It’s not rocket science. Your kids just aren’t as amazing as you think.
There's so many exceptional people of colour that are successful because of there hard work, not BEE.
BEE may get people the chance of education but the rest is up to them.
It is an unfortunate downside of legislation that uses genetics as a basis to determine who benefits. It disrespects the ability of those who would have achieved the results in anyway without the legislation because there are unfortunately those only benefit because of the legislation.
It is a crap situation, but yeah - whether you like it or not you are born with a benefit that those who do not have that benefit will never let you forget.
When an artifical springboard to success is established by the "powers that be", many people that are not eligable to access that springboard will, due to envy and resentment, attribute others' success to that machanism...whether or not that system is a justified and valid attempt at redress with flaws, or completely discrimatory, or a figment of their imagination.
This phenomenon has always existed and is not unique to SA. Successful people in finance and entertainment in the States are "Jews", at various points in history people we only successful because they had connections with the Masons, during apartheid every successful white businessman was secretly a Broederbond member, in the 2000s every player of colour in the Springboks and Proteas was a "quota", and now every successful black businessperson must be a BEE beneficiary and have connections in politics.
So yes, racism might be to blame, but that's a superficial explanaiton IMO. It's more just a justification for envy and resentment because of some perceived institutional exclusion, and in the case of BEE skincolour is a convenient and very overt identifyer for that exclusion.
To me, the proof will be when you hit 65 and go on retirement. Whether you got favored by rich parents, BEE, corruption, or plain hard work, your real and true story will be revealed.
Think of the public sector. Think of how it's collapsing due to BEE and Cadre Deployment.
I see BEE employments made all over the show in the private sector as well.
But you really cannot judge a person on skin colour. I work with many AMAZING "BEE" colleagues, who are there on merit.
White people don't realise how strong the echo chamber effect is. I used to genuinely believe that crap as well because I was surrounded by people that believed that. BEE doesn't create successful black people, it makes opportunities for rich black people to get richer, and that's about it. You see a successful black owned business in your area (in my area there is a small roof truss manufacturer owned by a Venda guy) you need to understand how hard that person worked to get there, and how little BEE did to help.
You want to stimulate our economy? Cut this BEE shit and rebuild a system that helps black people build small, stable businesses. There's this plumber I use often, he's really good, trained as an apprentice first in KZN, then in Nigeria, then came back. He now has his own business, but is really struggling to get ahead. He can't afford a vehicle so he uses taxis to get around. His tool box was stolen last year so he had to start from scratch. I bought him a gedore set to get started again because I can afford it, but why don't we take all the resources we spend on the BEE program and use it to help guys like him buy work vehicles and insure their business tools? Plumbing equipment isn't cheap, you need a lot more than just a toolbox off the shelf.
I was working on a site with this guy, and we're eating lunch with some of the other contractors, myself who was managing the site, and one of the engineers. You could tell how uncomfortable these other contractors were to be eating at the same table as a black guy. I was shocked to see the reality that's always been there. Anyway there was a radio quiz going on, I think it was 702, and we were competing to see who could get the answers while chowing Nando's, and this guy was blowing us out of the water. I consider my geography knowledge pretty good but I can't remember which is Mauretania and which is Mali you know? So this guy not only is working harder than us, but is also sharper than us, but still can't get ahead to the point where his business is stable enough to service a bakkie every few months and take on an apprentice. Government does nothing about that.
That's the end of my fun story about why I don't like the BEE system. It's not helping the people that need it.
**Answer: basic Supply and Demand. (and sometimes racism)**
SA has NEVER produced enough PoC/Black competent qualified humans to fill enough positions in SA to satisfy BEE.
So there are many localised role & sector shortages of competent PoCs... And the intra sector hunger games and shenanigans begin where the shortages are!
(so no Kaarens, not everyone gets to see the same side of BEE)
HERE IS WHERE IT SCREWS POCS.
If in your sector you're often exposed to BEE shenanigans, you (no matter your race) will get conditioned into doubting every PoCs competence.
(and NO, we're not genetically modifying / training enough humans to resist this)
* Stop BEE to allow competent PoCs to get the respect they deserve!
* Educate and grow enough PoCs that we don't have these stupid shortages and shenanigans!
* And allow legal dick-punching of any company that acts racist! This is not the 1900s!
2 reasons. The first is because of what we see in parliament and eskom. Unfortunately there are a lot of unqualified people of colour in high positions.
The second reason is ignorance. Most people that I have heard complain about this have had very little education or exposure to the working world and it's an easy way to blame their lack of success on something other than themselves.
Because systemically certain groups need to work harder to get accepted into tertiary institutions and to get a foot in the door when applying for jobs.
Corporate positions have always been dictated by networks and politics (with basic competency being the only other requirement - not merit alone).
I'm indian and it is clear as day that the generation of Indians before me (those who graduated circa 94 and work in corporate or government) had more opportunities than me because there were less educated black people at the time and there was a need for greater representation.
Not to say they were less competent than their white peers, but they were also not any more competent than my generation, yet they achieved more materially.
People think so because pure merit is not a thing and has never been. If you're poor and non-black, you will have to work a million times harder than your black equivalent in 2024 and that is a fact.
a) I'm not an immigrant, so it's not like I chose anything.
b) Why stop at continent (which itself is a foreign construct since Afro-Eurasia is one landmass)? We all know who the true natives of South Africa are (and only small traces of their DNA really still exist today). Would it be offensive if somebody said, we wouldn't have such issues if people stayed in the Niger-Congo basin? Of course it would, and this double standard is a huge problem in S.A
Idk. BEE makes a very small amount of black people rich. I mean stupidly small. In terms of a business ownership/ entrepreneurship point of view. So its not worth noting in my opinion. Where BEE makes a bigger difference is when you're looking for jobs. The less qualified black female will almost always be chosen over the more qualified white male. But that doesn't make black people rich. I mean are we talking supercar rich BEE babies? Because like I said they are few and far between. And no job will make you that rich, not likeley.
I own a company. And. BEE. Has killed it. So has it killed thousands of businesses alike. It’s not something you can look at a guy and say o his rich or successful because of BEE. It is entities. BEE consulting companies and those behind it. Making money and killing businesses in the process. You have to be a business owner. To understand that hat it does to your company.
You have to be in business. And a business owner to under stand the way. BEE. Works. Even overseas investors have pulled out of SA. Because they refuse to become part of the BEE owned company structure. It is what it is. You will work years and years on trying to make your company a success. But if you do not have a high BEE rating. You will loose it all.
I don't think that. When I see a successful person of color, I tend to think the opposite and actually admire them for accomplishing what they did despite the obstacles they faced. Back at uni, my black peers were often better educated and eloquent than me. At work now, I can honestly say all the people of color I work with are all highly talented, skilled and I really feel a strong admiration towards them. I don't like BEE though and I feel people should get the spot based on their skills and not just the color of their skin or gender.
If BEE and Affirmative Action is damaging the reputation of people, and they are not gaining anything from it, then why is there no call from the public to repeal it?
To the whites that wanna complain about BEE: they have their Grandparents and ancestors to thank, if it wasn't for them (the architects of apartheid) we wouldn't need BEE in the first place. So if you white people wanna be angry at someone be angry at them
Lol this makes me laugh, my first interview with a big company after variety the interviewer was another white male he was straight up with me (24WM) . We are taking 20 people only 1 can be a white male, why should it be you? It's not like they send you a message oh well done you got this job to meet our BEE quote. It's just there all the time in the background affecting all their recruiting decisions.
Dont focus on that - you know the correct information about it - They just cant face seeing a person succeed - Tall Poppy Syndrome - Its a huge phenomenon in Aussie and NZ. In Scandinavia they have The **Law of Jante** - summarized in 10+1 rules: The ten rules state:
1. You're not to think *you* are anything special.
2. You're not to think *you* are as good as *we* are.
3. You're not to think *you* are smarter than *we* are.
4. You're not to imagine yourself better than *we* are.
5. You're not to think *you* know more than *we* do.
6. You're not to think *you* are more important than *we* are.
7. You're not to think *you* are good at anything.
8. You're not to laugh at *us*.
9. You're not to think anyone cares about *you*.
10. You're not to think *you* can teach *us* anything.
The Janters who transgress this unwritten "law" are regarded with suspicion and some hostility, as it goes against the town's communal desire to preserve harmony, social stability and uniformity.
An eleventh rule recognized as "the penal code of Jante" is:
1. Perhaps you don't think *we* know a few things about *you*?
Ignore and set your own course - stop trying to live UP TO "Whites", live up to your own standards.
But you will also sense TPS within communities \[like townships\] too!!!
ps - What is sad to see within communities is an attitude \[especially the youth\] of "I want it all and I want it now and I dont want to work hard for it".
I've just numbered my points so that, if you'd like, you can respond to my points coherently. I am doing this to avoid cross talking and miss communication.
1) I think the frustration comes from a position of people excelling and not getting into university because of race or not being hired. My one friend really is an ace student he got like an average of 90% and didn't get into medical after 3 years of applying. He's just had to go in another study path.
2) Or stuff like my Dad lost all 13 of his contracts as the governments photogropher in a blink of an eye that bankrupted him because he was white. (The funny thing is my Dad was taking photos for Nelson and has many famous struggle photographs even used in big places like the Apartheid museum) but because He's white he lost it all.
3) Also, in your response you say "we need more people of colour in medicine" or something along those lines. If you take that as a premise then yes you would be correct but that premise isn't correct in my honest opinion. Artificially changing something like equality of outcome doesn't produce good at all. I don't think people are opposed to black people succeeding they're just opposed to being held back or down to fit a political agenda.
4) If the government used our taxes to build a grassroots economy by teaching black people to be plumbers, tradesmen or a host of any other sustainable and things like that it would actually be good at cost of no one. You'll probably find that they could train 100 plumbers for the price of 10 doctors and it would make so much more of a difference. The only thing is that plumbers aren't as flashy as doctors so it doesn't fit a narrative.
5) In short, the goals of BEE only really fits the ANC government and doesn't really benefit anyone including most poor blacks. The only people that are *really* gaining are the politicians that need votes.
If you look at the top 10% in SA in terms of wealth, black people make up the majority. When you look at who those black people are, it skews perceptions as the majority of them are BEE beneficiaries.
Of course, in reality, there are many successful black folks who didn't earn their riches purely because of BEE. Does BEE exist, sure. Has it benefited most successful black business, probably. Does that take away from the work that was put into building and running that business, surely not.
The same reason why when you see a successful white person with rich parents you think it's because of their daddy
Mans speaking the gospel of that golden parachute.
You would legit have more opportunities in life (education, early stimulation and simulating experiences in general, [likely] educated parents, medical care, extra-curriculars, lower economic stress, better nutrition, less exposure to teratogens and environmental stressors, living in safer areas, even your way of thinking and the habits you've been exposed to...) and have access to better networks from school and family if your parents are well-off, though. And you don't have tobback-support your parents / stress about the day they'll move in with you at cost to you. Let's not pretend that generational poverty isn't a massive impediment to success while the opposite is true for generational wealth (with room for exceptions, of course, but these don't disprove the rule).
What does this have to do with the above comment? Like the point was why peopled assume generational wealth, not saying that generational wealth isn't helpful or anything
Ok, you explain to me how my comment is irrelevant, then. Parents' success =/ not to child's success. Go. Preferably without more petulant downvoting :) Clarification: because you will literally have had a better QOL and likelihood of success 90/100 times if your parents are wealthy. It's not a wild assumption, and no one is assuming the parents are wealthy. The parents are wealthy. The commenter said so.
What is success? As someone from a wealthy family knowing other wealthy families we normally would measure it based on individual success, of which there isn’t actually many at all. Most lose the wealth within 1-2 generations because they did not become successful THEMSELVES. The fact is due to my family I wouldn’t need to work if I didn’t have to, but guess what? I’ve got 2 companies I’ve built up from scratch without help from family, and a day trade as my main source of income, again something I did and learnt on my own. Reason I started it first company? Because as a 6yr experienced dev I got turned down for a job, and reason was they needed more blacks to join the organisation so no job for me even though they would have liked me. Same with multiple other companies that I decided to start own instead as was the easier way. Now I employee others and make a good living for myself, enough to maintain lifestyle even without families money. I also outsource as much as possible as a I refuse to support any and all black owned companies and people in the country after their racism towards me that I felt heavily for the 2yr period was looking for work as a mid level software engineer, even junior positions didn’t want me due to my skin colour! This was before it went mad and everyone wanted to be a dev, so there weren’t many positions to begin with! Before that overseas I even worked with Microsoft and Oracle, didn’t mean shit here all because of my skin colour. And due to that I hold a deep resentment against every black person in this country, I wanted to be a full time senior software engineer after few more years in industry but instead was forced to do things on my own because of the racism here against white people.
You're bringing nothing but a pedantic baked red herring without any backing from evidence that isn't an anecdote. My observation extends to every race on the planet. Wealth = opportunity for success. "Most lose the wealth" care to back that? Because I can back my claims with real research and stats. Do you just mystically lose the numerous intangible benefits that I specifically focused on, too? And this: "The fact is due to my family I wouldn’t need to work if I didn’t have to, but guess what? I’ve got 2 companies I’ve built up from scratch without help from family" - this is just woefully lacking in self-awareness, and I'm betting the details are fantastically a la "self-made" Kardashian. You do realize that you just told me you had a wonderful safety net? This isn't available to others. And you're just completely ignoring or are unaware of the benefits of your upbringing. If you're actually talking on what I said and not your own projections, then you're here yelling about how rich parents =/ success because you have rich parents and are successful???? Wake up. Edit: Aaaaand now you're laying your ?failure? at the feet of tens of millions of human beings because they are black. But... You are humble-braggingly fine and list the opportunities you have had? "Forced to do my own thing" oh yeah like the other 45% of under-un-employed people in this country? Yeah, no... you should really see someone about that.
White privilege explained. 👆🏽
You spelt wealth wrong
That it would be logical to assume at least some of the success to a lot of the success of a person with rich parents is down to their parents' money, even indirectly. The above comment suggests rich parents (generational wealth - which can include money and inheritance, yes, but also less tangible assets like connections, experiences, opportunities for networking, status, socioeconomic conditions, medical care, education, knowledge/ ways of doing, etc,etc, etc that come with it ) isn't a huge reason for their children's' success. Having well-to-do parents demonstratably is a huge factor in success (not discrediting hard work where it's been put in, but come on).
Pretty shitty if you're white but you had to work hard because your dad spent his money on hookers and gambling.
Brother, is that you? I haven't heard back from dad in a while... Is he still at the casino?
Last I heard he was in the Netherlands, so probably not a casino
No we really don’t. We also don’t think you all own the land. Fact is that most black people who become successful have worked for it. They have to. I myself hold a Masters degree but I reported into a white male executive who only had a matric. At the end of the day, those who appointed him know why he’s there, but I also didnt get to where I am through BEE. I worked for it and studied hard.
Working on a B-BEE requirement for a customer. You'd be surprised the impact it has. On paper I agree with the idea. But for this company (MAJOR company that shall remain unnamed) tenders are awarded with a Points Preference System of 80/20. This means that if your company that is a level one B-BBEE contributor quotes R1 million rand more than the next guy that is not B-BEE registered, you still get awarded the tender. So companies that do not want to share their profits by just giving 50% of their business to someone just to get the level 1 status, are starting to appoint more people of colour to gain access to these Tenders. I am one of those people that do a job that requires a degree, I only have matric. I have worked physically my back into permanent issues to get where I am. In the real world, degrees are nice on paper, experience counts more, don't judge someone just because you have a masters and your boss doesn't. My point to all this. Even though B-BBEE makes sense on paper and I support it, it is also 30 years into the process and only a select few are befitting. Companies are no longer appointing personnel on merit, experience and work ethics, but rather trying to reach their diversity targets to get the sweet tenders. Note that to get extra points on your B-BBEE score, the training, opportunities and jobs you give people of colour counts as well. This brings benefits that Government provide to the company like tax write offs. So long story short, tenders are awarded for much higher prices because of B-BBEE, no quality check is done for what is provided, hurting the infrastructure and companies are hiring based on skin colour. B-BBEE is unfair, for ALL colored people. Hire on merit, experience and award tenders on price and quality == much better country. That's my issue with B-BBEE.
Welp, until the massive amount of capital held by white folks is actually available for investment into black businesses and communities starts getting voluntarily deployed for that purpose, you’ll need the government to step in. And if the government has to step in, the solution always sucks. But we need something because it’s not a good look when I bring black American investors over to Cape Town, for example, and the startup networking events are 80% white folks. Really highlights how without white people willingly investing private capital into black entrepreneurs, nothing will change. I swear, it’s so disingenuous when I hear white South Africans cry about crime, poverty, “dumb” voters etc. Like, all that shit exists because of how much the people who own capital and land in the country just don’t want to share wealth via investment. The current state could be dramatically improved overnight if those who owned capital were actually willing to invest private money into black owned businesses.
Capital seeks returns. No way you will convince any investor to chose X investment over Y with the argument "yeah the return is lower but it's a BEE owned enterprise". In the same manner, you won't convince any white person to pass up a higher return on investment due to it being a BEE cetrtified operation . It really is as simple as that. As soon as some developer starts gentrifying KwaMashu C-section, you watch the white capital start snapping property up, "Ive always loved KweMantchoo, it's so cultural and vibrant!" - Stacey, 44 Besides that - drastic changes in the perceived "value" of a typically undesirable investment, such as the example above, requires a huge co-ordinated effort from the public and private sector. That's a hard bargain when there is an abundance of undeveloped land surrounding such places. All of this is to say: Trust me, white people aren't withholding their investments to spite black people. We are just as greedy for returns as any other race.
"invest" in some google pal.
No, you absolutely do NOT need the government to step in. Trust the market. The market is a way more efficient engine of transformation than inefficient top down Comrades.
ALL GLORY TO THE MARKET. THE MARKET PROVIDES. THE MARKET PROTECTS.
When I hear stuff like this it makes me cross.
Quite different tbh because people who claim this as reasoning “assume” richness in terms on monetary value only.. where what they mean is the ability not to have to worry about survivability as top of priority and that’s is sadly almost always true for most beyond just white people and includes even white people(in the struggle to get going) these days too. Then there the inescapable reality that SA remains beholden to capitalists of the past which includes business culture(the “culture fit”). These things we, I’m not white, assume everyone starts with but that’s a lie. Then there is monetary part which is the structural and nature of a capitalist society especially late stage capitalism. This is also why entry salaries can be less than independent survival CoL salary as an entry if not unpaid to simply thin the applicants out to the “right people” and then claim .. it’s to determine who really wants it more.. not true.. it weeds out who has insufficient support. You start appreciating family support be it indirect or direct, lack of cultural deficits, etc more as you consider what some others get going with in life which is why the older I get the lesser I agree with right wingers and their individualism push.
Change your friends.
Yeah if "most people" in your circle think that you need to find friends who are less ignorant.
Yes please, his circle sucks big time... I'm an educated Coloured and definitely came across those BEE finger pointers, but I give them no time. They are mostly loosers anyways...
Because it makes them feel better about their own shortcomings.
That's your friend, making excuses. It's like most cricketers I've met as a scorer - system harms players of colour far more. God help the clowns that said Duhan left because of quotas/would otherwise play for the Boks, because THERE ISN'T ONE FOR THEM. That's how far they've come. 9/15 to 11/15 starters. Some people grew up with a superiority complex and talent that couldn't match it. In fact, some even have this absurd need to pay a victim card that is completely blank. In fact, they need to read more from Steve Biko and do their part. We need to be less superior, black people shouldn't feel inferior and we should continue to do our thing and speak openly. It's one thing we have that other countries will dance around. We can swear like sailors one day and hug each other the next.
110%!!!
Exactly this!
Honestly, I work for a big company, VERY culturally diverse from the bottom straight to the directors. Every person is qualified and competent and definitely not there because of their culture. Your friends are small minded and ignorant, treat them with mercy and explain your view, it must be really sad being stuck in what they perceive as their reality, how small minded, shame
Hear, hear. BBBEE was made far stricter due to continuous shortcuts being taken in the name of ease and profit. If it is difficult to deal with now, you know where to look for someone to blame- I promise you that professionals with the same university and experiences are just as good as you are (I speak as a white person here) regardless of colour. In fact, it shouldn't be the first think you ask yourself when you meet a person either. Not a good way to build trust and confidence with colleagues if you judge them by the colour of their skin/ethnity before ability
Racism. Thanks for coming to my TedTalk
The best TedTalk I've seen. 👌🏾
Yeah your friends are racists.
The success of middle class people of colour is despite BEE, not because of it. BEE only favours a tiny number of people and makes them extraordinarily wealthy - along with the investors milking said BEE - this serves to reinforce the same bias that your 'friends' have because they're oblivious to the thousands of hard working people of colour who just don't want to actively show how successful they are. Be careful of observer bias also - we tend to notice the things we want to notice.
This is the correct answer, in my humble opinion.
I give people respect based on how good they are at their job, not the colour of their skin. More often than not, people get the job because they can do the job. Tired of Dom poeste who invalidate achievements of people who have worked hard to get to where they are.
Exactly. Me too.
I see many good points here, but another I feel needs to be mentioned is that the BEE system has been gamed, and is still being gamed to maintain certain people: A practical example is the Department Of Justice call centre in the early 2000s - actual company names changed because you know... On the Systems Administration & Support side, you had A$T doing the Sys Admin work including the case logging system and most of the Managing (100% white) and A$T Networks (equity compliant & diverse). Unfortunately with A$T being where all the White Managers and Directors camped, A$T Networks had to be forced out through a campaign of blatant sabotaging of records and case statuses in the case logging system, revoking e-mail, phone, and computer access etc. all to subvert A$T Networks from doing their job of supporting the nation's legal system, so that a 100% Black owned & staffed Networking Service Provider could be brought in to balance out the White top heavy A$T. And the DOJ Call Centre was not an isolated case, it was more the rule than the norm, and certainly not the exception. Just look at the mechanics of the last Di$chem racial hiring scandal - directly caused by the sprawling mess of it's very White middle & upper management trying to preserve their own status quoe. Most people alive in the work force today saw or experienced directly or by family proxy, the effect of the initial implementation of BEE in the 1990s when the White people up top scrambled to preserve their top and middle management golfing buddy clique status quoes, by laying off droves of qualified and experienced White staff to hire on Equity candidates. Keeping the companies White Top-heavy. Unfortunately, it's going to be an insurmountable task to audit the diversity makeup and justifications for this makeup, of every business in SA.... ...So this "Gaming of BEE" is going to keep on happening, and BEE is going to continue to generate it's own worst publicity, and when coupled with nepotism / inherited positions, it's going to continue to harm the economy to some degree.
People need an excuse as to why they haven’t succeeded. It can be anything
Ive been doing work for a large SA employer for a number of years and the amount of senior/executive roles created with creative titles is astonishing. Its so obvious these positions were created to be filled with poc. Some of them are great and others are middle of the road, but ive seen established business heads set up their strategy to completely avoid some of them as stakeholders due to their incompetence. Like you say when youve received your advantage you have to make it work. Doesn’t mean it is effective for the business as a whole, and whole departments were moved down a level in the org structure to make way for these poc which is bad for morale.
Reading between the lines, it seems like this particular company had no or few people of colour at an exclusive level which itself is a bad thing. Diversity is at a board level is a good thing. Also having don’t forget that having no people of colour at an exec level is also incredibly demoralizing for the work force. Everyone wants to see someone with a backstory similar to their own succeed. Lastly, it might just be that your company is unlucky or bad in recruitment. There are lots of very competent people in the country, of all races, that for some or other reason end up marginalized. Some companies get it right and benefit from improving on legacy incompetence.
Reading between the lines you’ve missed the point of my comment. There are success stories. There are also failures. Representation is nice. Competence is essential. Theres nothing worse for people looking for a rolemodel only to see them fail after they were chosen for their identity rather than their competence. It’s no use shifting the blame of executive failure to HR, the person was brought in to take responsibility for business success, not HR. And the whole reason we have these policies is because there were imbalances of representation at the top, duh!
But this could’ve happened anywhere then? I’ve seen many white executives hired only to leave a few months later with a nice package, because they have fokol idea what they’re doing. This isn’t race dependent this is the companies incompetence in hiring the right people for the job.
Ha. Seems like we’re both not reading properly then. My point was if your person was selected properly, from the abundance of very qualified poc in the country, you would not have this view or problem. It’s a specific selection problem not a general problem and it stems from whoever made the appointment. I’ve worked for a multinational professional services firm and top tier listed SA company. I can tell you that incompetence comes in all shades.
BEE didn't write the exam for him and he's clearly a qualified doctor, but BEE may have caused an equally or even more qualified white person to lose out on the job. And if I need to go to the hospital for life saving surgery, I would want the highest qualified doctor in charge of my life, not the one that was chosen because we need to "represent the population"
How do you get to the point where you don't need inclusive policies? Ironically, the answer is "with inclusive policies." Even considering the "disservice" to you as a citizen with regards to the perceived quality of work done by a black doctor vs a white one, you haven't taken into account the butterfly effect of it all. The doc sends his kids to a better school, they get better jobs, buy houses where they grew up, create demand for jobs themselves, reduce unemployment and crime etc.. We got to start somewhere, or live with animosity and division forever .
I agree we had to start somewhere 20+ years ago, but it's not only a "disservice" to the common citizen. The positives you mention are at the expense of another race, this is the primary reason it's not taken seriously. It's also very selective in who is "previously disadvantaged", if you're born an Asian before 1994, you are eligible for BEE redress, born after 1994, you're shit out of luck. Not the case for blacks of course. Also, do we really believe that rewarding people with highly technical / impactful positions in our workplaces just because they were born with black skin is going to stimulate growth? Are we not in the middle of a major energy crisis? Do we not see this failure extend to other industries, health care, finance, government etc etc. Corruption is at an all-time high. If anything, ironically, BEE has turned out to be a disadvantage for the future generation of the previously disadvantage.
BEE can provide opportunities at the expense of better qualified white people - there's just no getting away from that and I'm sure for many this is an unpopular downvotable comment. Even in your example, a white person who may have worked harder/got better results didn't get a spot at medical School simply because of representation and the colour of their skin. You see this in the corporate world all the time where a black person is hired or promoted over a white person. This is not to say that they are not just as good or even better in terms of talent and ability - they very well might be. But because skin colour and achieving a metric are often driving those decisions, it's easy to reduce the success down to that, and not ability. I don't see how this is going to change until BEE is abolished (can't see that happening any time soon). I work with alot of black professionals that want to succeed based on merit but don't know if that's the case. On the other hand many just accept that this practice is what it is and make the most of it.
I beg to differ, my experience in the corporate environment, has taught me that BEE means very little for big companies as I still see multiple white people getting positions and promotions over people of color, and in the last 3 cases I have seen, the people of color were better qualified with more experience, but the hiring manager said before the interview he was already going to hire the white guy. If you want to get rid of BEE, then you need to get rid of race and names on CV. If you want the hiring process to be based off qualifications and experience, then you have to remove any ability to determine the person's race. 2 years back an IT related position opened up. I of 2 of the people that applied, 1 coloured guy had 20 years experience in IT, 3 years experience as a manager, the other guy(white) had no experience in IT, had never worked on a pc, wouldn't be able to install software, let alone hardware, but he regularly went out for drinks with the hiring manager. Guess who got the job, not the coloured guy. Edit: government jobs is mainly were BEE is as you say, trying to fill race quotas, but rarely at private companies, in my experience.
Thanks for sharing your experience. My experience of working for more than one large JSE listed companies has been very different. It goes something like this: I need a resource to work on an important project that is tracking late, and the hiring manager tells me they have a candidate (a colored guy!) but he cant hire that guy because HR are insisting that it needs to be a black person. I'm honestly not sure why or how we now differentiate between different shades of previously disadvantaged people, or what the metric is that they are trying to hit, but this is a true story. Ultimately, when they find that guy and he eventually gets hired, the initiative is already running very late and not producing its benefits, but more than this, the poor guys capabilities are being questioned even before he arrived. There has to be a better way?
Joburg is a different fish, the bee that side, yeah, it's too much. Buddy of mine couldn't get an interview for 2 years till I told him to change his surname on his CV. He had the whitest surname despite being coloured. The answer/better way: Remove BEE, it creates animosity and problems of its own. Focus on improving education in communities for people of color. Our government tends to take the approach of lowering standards required to pass instead of improving the standard of education to raise a better nation. Again just my experience, but better education solves so much problems.
100% And this is the real problem. People are fighting with each other based on race-based regulations that the government is effecting, all the while the vast majority of our population are poor, uneducated and unable to gain meaningful employment. At a macro level, the government are failing to create opportunities, and BEE is not the answer to that. Better education, better basic infrastructure (transport, rail, electricity), better control of our borders, and unshackling business so they can be more competitive etc etc, ultimately creates opportunities. But yet we always want to take the simple/easy path.
I agree that BEE creates animosity and problems. However, as someone who lived in Johannesburg, disagree that it's somehow worse there. Firstly, black people are the majority of the population living in Johannesburg (and SA). Therefore, you are naturally going to encounter more black people in the workplace for that reason. Secondly, it's the economic hub of the country and tends to offer higher salaries at a more affordable cost of living. This tends to attract people from all over SA there, including people from all race groups who tend to be educated, highly driven, and ambitious as there are a lot of big corporates operating in Jhb. Some of the best and brightest in the country. It is, therefore, a highly competitive job market. Even people with degrees and experience struggle to get in because of how competitive the market is. I know of black graduates with STEM masters degrees who are unemployed and struggling for work. From my experience, your proven experience (especially if you come from the same industry) matters more there, and in Jhb, your salary also isn't dictated by your race. You get paid based on factors such as the job level and your experience regardless of your race. When I worked in Pretoria, it was different, I was earning less than my younger white coworker, who was straight out of varsity. ( I had five years of experience at the time). Her salary was R20 000 whilst mine was R9 000 before tax, and she started with the company two months before me. We both had the same qualifications and job title. She was a nice person, though, so I didn't resent her, but I did feel resentful towards the management of the company.
This does happen, but it's not because of BBBEE, but rather because of common misunderstandings and misapplications of BBBEE. I say this as someone deeply involved with the EE practices in one of SA 's largest public companies. The fact is, the legislation and constitution are actually quite explicit about not hampering the rights of non-designated groups (eg white males, like myself), and this is very much in line with international standards on this front. (Which is also why attempts to get international community/courts to condemn it have failed repeatedly) That said, there are many companies who still do things the wrong way, which is where the misunderstanding often grows. But the fact is there is nothing at all in the legislation that justifies or encourages what you describe in your first sentence.
This is a good point.
That's an interesting viewpoint but I'm speaking from more than a decade of my own real-life/personal experience. Tell me which company it is you work for where I'll get hired purely on the basis of my skill/talent/experience because I definitely want to consider working there. What you refer to may not be legislated, but the practice is to offer roles and opportunities to people where the distinguishing factor is skin colour or simply not to hire until the person with the required skin colour is found.
Generalizations, are generally not great. As a white man, seeing a successful person of colour doesn't automatically trigger a "how did he do it" response in me. Although I do hear what you're saying. I too know whites like this. They are usually the jealous and mediocre ones, not personalities to aspire towards.
Why should doctors represent the population?
No, we don't think that. We think, Oooo, I wonder if he is married? (just kidding, only sometimes). I agree, don't hang out with racists.
Do the people that say that people should be hired based on merit realise that the majority of the population is black? If we went based on the merit, it's likely that the majority of the corporate workforce would also be black. The problem is that black people in SA do not get nearly the same opportunities that white people get. So if we made sure that everyone in SA regardless of skin colour were give the same opportunities to succeed, the majority of the corporate workforce would be black because we make up the majority of the population. How many businesses and companies do you see in SA where the majority of upper management are white or are completely white owned? A lot right? But then white people still wanna complain about BEE? Bull shit
Yeah no I think you need new friends brotherman. BEE is not a perfect system, but no system is. I'm not educated enough to say whether or not it has been a net positive or negative, but even I can acknowledge that plenty of my past and current co-workers who are people of color have gotten to where they are due to hard work. I feel like anyone who thinks like your friends do, is completely out of touch with reality, and needs to maybe get a job somewhere else that isn't their uncles vape shop.
A few of my (older) family members said shit like this when we talked about my studies. Sure someone might have an easier time getting in because of bee, but from there on we're suffering through the same course.
The funny thing is.... They don't have an easier time getting in even with Bee. They still have to meet requirements, they just also get considered, which is something that still shocks people.
Also their hurdles getting to that point are why it exists. Its going to be easy to do well if you have 2 supportive parents, food in your belly and a class size under 50 taught by teachers that are well looked after.
This is often seen as an excuse but yeah pretty much. Also No therapy to help you navigate all that. You simply have to be grateful to be alive, work hard for your dreams because everyone depends on you.
Not really. Black students do get pushed through to maintain demographics proportionality of graduates, and the courses themselves have been watered down to accommodate them. MBCHB ans LLB courses in particular are not what they were.
Delulu
If students were getting pushed through a course despite failing it, or if courses are watered down that degree would most likely lose any international accreditation. Most faculties get moderated by national councils who have international standards.
Do you have a source on this bullshit?
Is it?
This is accurate.
Because subtly BEE influence everything. I have sat through many corporate employment discussions. They find a candidate that matches the role perfectly, but gets pointed out that he is white, then they select the next candidate. Almost 80% of these discussions had this result, the other 20% was selected because the team they were assigned to was mostly black. Saying your success has nothing to do with BEE is like a white person saying they never benefited from white privilege. You may not be a BEE direct hire, but your role, training, studies, promotion, scholarship, etc. Had to apply BEE rules for that decision, thus, you will never really know if you benefit from it. The sad part is that many of the candidates i still follow that was declined their position due to BEE rules became industry leaders - in other countries, sad loss for SA.
People of colour are more likely to get bursaries when whites don't. Marks play a big role in your successfulness, but so does finance. I applied for uni, got in and did my first year. My grades were good. Didn't have the finances. I applied for nsfas, and they turned me down without giving me a valid reason, which btw, they must do according to law. I sent multiple emails asking about it, but they never got back to me. I'm not one to discriminate, but it feels disheartening to work hard, get nothing, and see people scrape by with their grades, while not have to worry about finances.
My white coworker, who is a single mum, managed to get NSFAS funding for her daughter, who is studying teaching. From what recent grads have told me, they tend to give preference to teaching and nursing qualifications since there is a shortage of skills in those professions.
The issue is people assume that if they are not successful in jobs, bursary application or accepted in college, it is because they are not black. Do you know how many black people are rejected everyday? Do you know how many colored people are rejected every single day? Do you know how many Indians are rejected every single day? We just need to realize that it's not any races fault that you or anyone is not getting what they need, every race has its own struggles. We simply need to focus on getting the sitting government out this coming elections.
The delulu racists have arrived in the comments everyone 🙄
Statistically it's more likely to have not been due to BEE
Can you elaborate on these statistics? Edit: Why are you downvoting this instead of simply sharing your statistics, surely it will merely strengthen your point wouldn't it?
What are your thoughts on the matter?
B.E.E is giving people a "Leg-up". What they do from there is up to them. B.E.E. Was/is there to level playing field and trying to reduce privilege white people experienced in past. I.e. White person would almost certainly have been picked over black person despite having equal qualifications or abilities. (Call it what you want, but there is a Bias towards white people being able to perform beter than black people) In essence saying one never met a person who was successful because of BEE is same as saying nobody was ever successful because of white privilege!
BEE is a racist policy that discredits the hard work done by talented black people. When I tell my friends in Zambia and Malawi about BEE, they can't believe how a racist policy can be legal.
You have black friends? WOW
Fuck off asshole
Dude ?🤷🏿♂️
>I am puzzled. Many of my white friends tend to reduce the success of a person of colour down to B. E. E. Your white friends are being tools. As a PoC I do agree that BEE can be advantageous, but it's not just that all people of colour automatically benefit from BEE. Some PoC would have made it regardless of BEE, while some were definitely given a leg up (and may or may not have needed it). >Yes the competition for whites is harder to get into medical school, but that's because we need more people of colour as doctors to represent the population. Now here is where I differ in opinion. As a PoC I don't give a fuck what race the person is who's treating me. All that matters is that they're good at being a doctor. The fact that we have BEE requirements for certain critical professions where there are shortages boggles my mind.
I don't actually know how true that last part even is. It just seems so easy to just blame B. E. E. I had a girl who was a mechanical engineer graduate come to work with me in IT and complained that there are no jobs for white people, that was about 10 years ago. She's been in I. T ever since and did extremely well..... My take is she was just not meant to be in that field. No need to blame being white.
No definitely not someone who still thinks like that should get a reality check but then again most black people think when you're white and successful its white privilage. I dont think anyone has priviledge in SA
I am non-white and I had to fight and claw my way to middle class. Did I get NSFAS? Yes, I did. Was I expected to study on a hungry stomach? Yes! Even which University I could attend was influenced by my poverty. The vast majority of non-white middle class fought their way to where they are now. BEE is something for the elite few who have the right connections. Also, getting a leg up in life is not wrong. Whether it is through BEE or your lovely middle class upbringing (which helps you make the right social connections - ask me how I know) is the same thing. However, MOST non-white South Africans literally only got free schooling and NSFAS as a leg up in life - again, ask me how I know.
The reality is that 9 out of 10 it is the case.
Just like 9 out of 10 white people acquired their wealth illegally during apartheid?
Come on now, you know it's not only BEE they have an issue with.
Interesting how there was no rich mandela, mbeki, zuma or even ramaphosa, but suddenly after holding office they and their families are all wealthy. Dont tell me BEE did not benefit those bastards. As for ramaphose being rich, do some homework, his money came from stealing from the anc....
I work for a company that has zero b. E. E nonsense. They hire and fire accordingly. Within the business though there are rotten potatoes, whenever a black person is promoted, they question his merits without any backing at all. They expect other races to be promoted with no questions asked. Luckily the hard work of everyone is what gets them promoted.
If that kind of success could be attributed to BEE then the policy would have been a fantastic success in the sense that it would have had a very broad impact (a great thing!). However, I'm inclined to agree with another commenter's conclusion that it has mostly benefited a small group disproportionately. If anybody has read any studies on the impact of BEE, please share.
In my view it gives them a reason to explain why Black and Brown people are more successful than them. It's driven by an inherent supremacist ideology. What they won't speak about however is how for nearly 5 decades White South Africans were given rights denied to Blacks and Brown South Africans based on nothing other than their skin colour. As a result of those rights they still enjoy the benefits today, this is something those racists conveniently overlook. Ignore these types...you won't convince them.
I think a lot of people have the potential talent/ability to reach that level of success and it's only by opportunity where you see who shines through ? Prior to BEE, it was more difficult to get the opportunity to stand out. So BEE gives people of colour the platform to excel - whether they reach success or not, that's on the person to actually perform. Your friends blaming BEE are trying to shift responsibility onto someone else as to why they're not "as successful". Always take accountability and try your best. Blaming someone else just takes the control out of your hands and makes you feel powerless.
Those aren't good friends. Get better ones
BEE was designed to uplift the previously disadvantaged. If you were part of a previously disadvantaged group and you made a success of yourself between the years of 1998 - present, then it’s impossible that you did not benefit from it. Even if you tried to not benefit from it you did. Either directly or indirectly. Sadly that’s called life. You can’t have segregational economic empowerment and be a rags to riches story.
As a white person, I would like to distance myself from these uneducated, ignorant fools.
Woah, white capetonians saying racist shit... I'm shocked
I work in a very diverse office of all really hard workers, im actually one of only two whites in my department of 8, Im an Engineer but I also handle our entire company IT and a portion of the BEE. We needed another junior engineer as our workload is too hectic. We ended up hiring a dude based on colour to assist our BEE scorecard over 2 other guys equally qualified but with work experience. He is the most useless clown and because of the BEE spend contributing to your scoring his salary is on par with mine with the same qualification 9 years less experience and about 1/4 of the workload which he doesnt get through and needs help from the rest of the department. I am 100% against this kind of BEE. One dude has soured all of BEE for me.
Sounds like your hiring process is shitty
I guess it is but man had the qualification and the skin colour we needed.
This reads as more of an exposé on your choice in friends than it does on the perceptions of “most” people. And the way you say most people, then clarify that you actually mean white people (YOUR bloody chommies btw), while not thinking that most people are NOT white - low-effort, clicky post trying to get racist shit going.
Same reason why people think that any white rich guy is due to apartheid
Why do we need more people of color as doctors to represent the population? It's hypocritical to say we want a non-racist and non-sexist society, but we make our choices based on race or sex when it should be based on merit and merit alone imo. Also, regardless if the colored guy passed his medical final exam on his own, if he was selected above another candidate based on the color of his skin that makes him a beneficiary of BEE whether you like it or not, it doesn't make him a bad doctor but sugarcoating it doesn't change the fact that he benefitted from bee. The fact that BEE is enshrined into each and every sector of our current society may be the reason that your friends view BEE the way they do, but we don't know what your friends think so maybe ask them directly, and as someone else already mentioned, you should maybe find new friends.
Agree with this 100%. Any outcome other than the merits of the individuals skills and abilities for the sake of "diversity" is by definition a benefit obtained due to another factor - such as BBE in this case. If the outcome is that a doctor obtained their position cause they were the most qualified, and that doctor happens to the black, then awesome! Im all for it. But sadly, in my own circle of friends who became doctors ( and who had the matric marks to back ) were not evaluated on a level playing field at the time and barely got in. So no I disagree with OP, equality of outcomes lead to vastly worse results than equality of opportunities.
Yes and no. The simple answer is that we need medical services in every part of the country and unfortunately there are parts of the country that people of some races are simply unwilling to live in. So, to get a better distribution of medical service, we need more diversity in the medical field. Doctors and specialists in particular.
It makes sense what you say, but I think this is highly debatable. Let's say the colored doctor in OP's scenario qualified aa a doctor but refuses to work in the Cape flats for example, or Soweto, what have we achieved then?
Might happen but they are far more likely to work in the Cape Flats than a white doctor. Likewise, a black doctor is far more likely to work in Soweto than a coloured or white doctor. I think you are right in the sense that there wouldn’t be a 100% hit rate but it’s still an improvement. The flip side is that just because you are a poc doesn’t mean you must live or work in these areas. Absolutely nobody would complain if more white doctors decided to do so.
My nephew (white) is a young doctor at Baragwanath and applied to specialize but was turned down because of racial quotas. So know he's contemplating moving somewhere abroad to further his studies. This entire model is unsustainable in the long run imo.
The doctor maybe got his medical place on lower attainment, less distinctions than the other applicant. Happened in my child’s year. There is a suspicion of professionals from a certain disastrous era called Outcomes Based Education where they were not allowed to be failed. I don’t want any of those people anywhere near me, medically. BEE ensures that hiring and promotion in the corporate world is based on colour not merit or experience.
Ah! The uninformed is here. So let me tell you something... there are zero people in South Africa that matriculated with OBE! Gasp! But how can that be? Let me tell you: Curriculums are rolled out over a few years; for example with CAPS it was: Year 1: Gr 1-3 and Gr 10 Year 2: Gr 4-6 and Gr 11 Year 3: Gr 7-9 and Gr 12 So back around 1998 the government gave these lil white books for the schools for OBE and a third of people in Educational publishing lost their job. This was the initial roll out of OBE. There was some issues and they revised the plan with introducing the adjusted framework/curriculum called Curriculum 2005. They started with rolling it out for Gr 8’s in 2001 with the intend that they will be the first group to matriculate with it in 2005. They rolled out the Gr 9 in 2002 and then in 2003 there was no OBE curriculum for learners so they went back to the NCS. This is what they matriculated with. They then quietly shelved OBE and did a Revised NCS which had its first matrics in 2008. This was replaced with CAPS that had its first matrics in 2014. Thus there never was an OBE matriculant. I lived through it as someone that was suppose to be one of the first OBE curriculum 2005 matrics. When we switched back to NCS in 2003 there were many learners that had trouble adjusting from scenario based and application questions to ‘parrot learning’ and you better use the exact wording from the textbook and there were more learners that didn’t pass grade 10 than before. But I feel the experience of both prepared me for university quite well. I also had a module at university that covered educational publishing’s history in South Africa.
Just to add to this : "disastrous era called Outcomes Based Education where they were not allowed to be failed" - You can technically fail subjects still, As long as a Portfolio is present, its been like that since I was in Matric (2008)
Except this was in tertiary. An external examiner in DENTISTRY was not allowed to fail people @ 2011. Do you know that South Africa used to lead the world in orthodontics?
that is a reality that most South Africans are ignoring. My mother in law is a business consultant and she has to deal with that every day. The things she tells us is quite scary.
BEE is South Africa's biggest economic problem... By definition, it divides the entire country into "BEE candidates" vs white people... That is the literal definition of racism. Giving preference to a specific race group and excluding another... Remember those "Slegs Blankes" signs of Apartheid? Well, they're still there... Except now, it says "Geen Blankes" and everyone is thrilled that white owned businesses are closing down, but we're all riding this economic collapse because of it. And if you thought "Well? What's wrong with that? Blacks SHOULD get preference!"..... That's racism, you're a racist, and part of the problem we ALL face. Racism is NOT only white people excluding black people.... Racism is ANY race group excluding another. And BEE does exactly that.
It’s because unconscious racism is ingrained in your friends brains. If they’re comfortable enough to say that when you’re around imagine what they’re saying when you’re not around.
The irony is you will likely never meet someone whose success/wealth is solely due to (BB)BEE as there are a small minority of people who have truly benefited from (exploited) it. You do you man. As others have said, get other friends.
Most people?
Your "friends" are just racist, they'll drag you down with them if you continue to hang out with them
Not most people, your white friends are just racist.
Lack of education is the problem and teachers being paid peanuts. A qualified pre school teacher ( the beginning of education ) at a government institution school is paid R1500 a MONTH. ???????????
I don't. No one that I know does. I think you may be generalizing. We are all just trying to get on with our lives as best we can.
Can everyone please stop talking about White, coloured and black people. And BEE stuff. I'm so sick that everything is always about racism. And then everyone starts insulting one another. I just want peace and people to accept other people for what they are. Not their colour.
Racial policies reinforces racism?
The comments on Reddit are amusing.
Youre in cape town bro.
U need more ppl of colour in the med section to represent the population?🤣🤣now I've heared it all man. Docs should not be about race representing S.A. makes no sense. Only the best deserve to be doctors.
Uhmmm. When it comes to health care it's important that they reflect the country's demo. It's simple logic and don't let your racial biases impact you from seeing why it's important. Imagine that you are white and Afrikaans, and you never meet a doctor that looks like you and can speak your language. Especially in a country where ere the majority of people are white and Afrikaans, can you not see the importance of it?
Nope, I want to see the best doc no matter the skin colour. U the 1 been racial by saying S.A needs black doctors representing the country. Makes no sense to me.
you’d be surprised how many white people have found success because of BEE. it’s deeply ironic because they’re the ones who hate it the most.
About B.E.E how long is it going to be in place? I would like to know if B.E.E and affirmative action really has the intended affects. Hell who darn even knows what the intentions of these kindsa things are anymore!
I’ll tell you when I see one.
It’s difficult to determine either way. Until it is abolished there will be always be questions. Quotas always lead to mediocracy
Not really. Eventually once you fix your mindset you will see skill before colour
I’m saying that skill should matter of colour, i.e. most qualified person for the job.
What is BEE?
It comes down to a combination of factors such as ignorance and resentment. It's also a way to discredit that person's success so that they can still feel superior to them. As a POC and a female, even with the B.E.E. policies and having the qualifications and experience, I still struggle to get a foot in the door as opposed to someone that has none of these but are friends with the right people. I've always had to work twice as hard to prove myself to get to where I am and even then have to deal with the stereotypes. Having worked behind the scenes in HR, I know there are some managers who will even pretend to endorse B.E.E and interview POC, only to decline them for some ridiculous criteria in order to justify why they can't fill the role with a POC. The glass ceilings still exist. So when a POC does get hired, I know that most times it's because they truly deserve it as they usually get put through the ringer by some managers who share the same attitude as your friends. That being said, I also know a lot of white managers who don't have this attitude, and they hire people regardless of their race but rather for their experience or potential and work ethic. I wish we could come to a stage where race is not a factor and everyone can be given equal opportunities in terms of employment. I don't believe that a person should be denied opportunities or the right to earn a living because of their skin color. (I mean, isn't this having the same mentality as the apartheid government?) In order for that to happen, though, everyone needs to play their part, and I believe the reason why the government has doubled down and introduced more stringent regulations is because of the above mentioned practices of some hiring managers.
This is the only comment that makes sense here. We need to get rid of this delusion that people (especially white men) get hired based on merit alone because that is not reality. BBBEE is a form of Affirmative Action legislated to correct the original form of AA which is also race (and gender, we never speak about that) based -white men hiring each other despite merit. I think at this point we all know the level of gatekeeping this has caused in SA. BEE was meant to correct this gate keeping, however I do agree with comments pointing out that it has not quite accomplished that and instead only benefitted a few POC. But this is because BEE can be gamed and there are whole industry experts dedicated to teaching businesses how to game BBBEE laws. The truth is that the original AA in SA has never stopped despite BEE. There are many POC that won't even get an interview no matter how qualified they are bc they are just not the right skin colour. Also, fun fact, AA ("or diversity hiring")benefits white women the most so I always find it weird when this conversation is centred solely around POC. But that's just an aside that I'd like people to start thinking about so I'm not gonna discuss that here.
Its a stigma that the BEE system created. You see this in sports too. And the problem is that because there are “quotas” that need to be met, its difficult for people to know if the guy/gal was chosen because of competency or because of BEE. And because everyone has a self bias (i am better than the other guy) the assumption will be that he/she was chosen because of BEE. You also see the opposite in some cases. For example a varsity friend (black) and i (white) were applying for the same job, but in the end i got appointed. Afterwards we had a discussion about it and his sentiment was that because i was white i got the job. After a few weeks at the new job i asked the people that did the interview about his interview and they said his didn’t go as well since he seemed unsure about himself and didn’t come across well. The whole situation made me feel as if i didn’t deserve the job but in the end they hired me because i was the best person for the role. Thats how i imagine the BEE system makes many black, yellow, pink, blue people feel. It created a stigma where people automatically assume you are a BEE hire because there are quotas and not because of your competencies. And thats a sad reality in SA.
You literally explain a benefit of BEE but then still discount it as having playing a, even small, role.
Because BEE is degrading to black people. It’s basically saying they can’t compete at the level of whites so they need special rules. If BEE was removed and a poc became rich no one will complain. But the truth is blurred by the fact that BEE still exists.
Because of BEE we can’t get the millions in the rurals living in poverty online with Starlink. The poorest people can’t even get into the 20th century, let alone the 21st! Why? Because Starlink isn’t a BEE company. Crazy mismanagement. How will the poor ever better themselves further than simple subsistence living (at best), if they can’t educate themselves beyond planting mealies.
Same reason why i got paid less than half of the lady i trained to do my job...
BEE needs to go, we should hire people based on their skills and commitments and not the colour of their skin If Apartheid affected you why are we trying to work back to an Apartheid 2.0 rather than some positive and safe for everyone If something bad happens and affects you it doesn't mean you get a free pass to do it too
Tell me if this sounds familiar. You get refused entry into the program because of the color of your skin and not your grades or merit.
BEE does not help people of colour. It helps black people (hence the B). It's only job is to keep the elite class elite and 60% of south Africans in poverty. Any system based on skin colour is doomed to cause corruption. And where I respect your experience and opinion, I don't think we need more "people of colour" as doctors. I think we need more South Africans of lower classes and of every cook and creed to be doctors. We as a county need to fucking forget about this racial and tribal obsession we have and just help our country men FFS. Sorry POC is a trigger fraze for me.
You need to have skills and a natural affinity for business to be successful, they've proven by now that BEE does more harm than good, There's a term for when you exclude one race in favor of another, You would do more good for the country and the economy to include all races rather selective
Cos BEE is forcing employment and possibilities based on skin colour rather than actual ability
b ee ee g load of crap heres 51% you reflect light differently to that colour its all crap beee racism etc i just dont think you should get merit based off colour thats regressive maybe opposite in the past but no longer not a loser just my opinion you can have the exact same business but youre not black so therefore you take an L xD beeeg load of bull
Yet black people don't equate every white persons success to apartheid's job reservation programme that saw the majority of this country alienated from every job opportunity and left to rot in minimal jobs that exploited them while earning next to nothing. On the other hand were dealing with the propaganda system that was Bantu education.
Same reason so many black people will think every white person has money. I have actually been told on more than one occasion that I must have money because I am white (when in fact I was struggling more than a lot of black okes I know).
Answered your own question, it's harder for whites to get Into medical school and get a job because of B E E, it's wrong to take away the hard work the people kf color did do and honestly I couldn't get where they are, but the BEE still made it easier on them,whites have to work harder to get to the same position so that people of color can,for lack of better wording "catch up" after the apartheid
Or there’s just a lot of competition for MBCHB and LLBs, so by logic is harder to get into. By further logic the racial make up of our population means there will be more black students doing better than white students as there are just more people in that demographic. It’s not rocket science. Your kids just aren’t as amazing as you think.
Your argument would be valid if acceptance was based purely on merit.
There's so many exceptional people of colour that are successful because of there hard work, not BEE. BEE may get people the chance of education but the rest is up to them.
It is an unfortunate downside of legislation that uses genetics as a basis to determine who benefits. It disrespects the ability of those who would have achieved the results in anyway without the legislation because there are unfortunately those only benefit because of the legislation. It is a crap situation, but yeah - whether you like it or not you are born with a benefit that those who do not have that benefit will never let you forget.
When an artifical springboard to success is established by the "powers that be", many people that are not eligable to access that springboard will, due to envy and resentment, attribute others' success to that machanism...whether or not that system is a justified and valid attempt at redress with flaws, or completely discrimatory, or a figment of their imagination. This phenomenon has always existed and is not unique to SA. Successful people in finance and entertainment in the States are "Jews", at various points in history people we only successful because they had connections with the Masons, during apartheid every successful white businessman was secretly a Broederbond member, in the 2000s every player of colour in the Springboks and Proteas was a "quota", and now every successful black businessperson must be a BEE beneficiary and have connections in politics. So yes, racism might be to blame, but that's a superficial explanaiton IMO. It's more just a justification for envy and resentment because of some perceived institutional exclusion, and in the case of BEE skincolour is a convenient and very overt identifyer for that exclusion.
To me, the proof will be when you hit 65 and go on retirement. Whether you got favored by rich parents, BEE, corruption, or plain hard work, your real and true story will be revealed.
Think of the public sector. Think of how it's collapsing due to BEE and Cadre Deployment. I see BEE employments made all over the show in the private sector as well. But you really cannot judge a person on skin colour. I work with many AMAZING "BEE" colleagues, who are there on merit.
I only think that about these fat cats that splurge on designer bags and only drink Hennesey.
White people don't realise how strong the echo chamber effect is. I used to genuinely believe that crap as well because I was surrounded by people that believed that. BEE doesn't create successful black people, it makes opportunities for rich black people to get richer, and that's about it. You see a successful black owned business in your area (in my area there is a small roof truss manufacturer owned by a Venda guy) you need to understand how hard that person worked to get there, and how little BEE did to help. You want to stimulate our economy? Cut this BEE shit and rebuild a system that helps black people build small, stable businesses. There's this plumber I use often, he's really good, trained as an apprentice first in KZN, then in Nigeria, then came back. He now has his own business, but is really struggling to get ahead. He can't afford a vehicle so he uses taxis to get around. His tool box was stolen last year so he had to start from scratch. I bought him a gedore set to get started again because I can afford it, but why don't we take all the resources we spend on the BEE program and use it to help guys like him buy work vehicles and insure their business tools? Plumbing equipment isn't cheap, you need a lot more than just a toolbox off the shelf. I was working on a site with this guy, and we're eating lunch with some of the other contractors, myself who was managing the site, and one of the engineers. You could tell how uncomfortable these other contractors were to be eating at the same table as a black guy. I was shocked to see the reality that's always been there. Anyway there was a radio quiz going on, I think it was 702, and we were competing to see who could get the answers while chowing Nando's, and this guy was blowing us out of the water. I consider my geography knowledge pretty good but I can't remember which is Mauretania and which is Mali you know? So this guy not only is working harder than us, but is also sharper than us, but still can't get ahead to the point where his business is stable enough to service a bakkie every few months and take on an apprentice. Government does nothing about that. That's the end of my fun story about why I don't like the BEE system. It's not helping the people that need it.
Bang on
**Answer: basic Supply and Demand. (and sometimes racism)** SA has NEVER produced enough PoC/Black competent qualified humans to fill enough positions in SA to satisfy BEE. So there are many localised role & sector shortages of competent PoCs... And the intra sector hunger games and shenanigans begin where the shortages are! (so no Kaarens, not everyone gets to see the same side of BEE) HERE IS WHERE IT SCREWS POCS. If in your sector you're often exposed to BEE shenanigans, you (no matter your race) will get conditioned into doubting every PoCs competence. (and NO, we're not genetically modifying / training enough humans to resist this) * Stop BEE to allow competent PoCs to get the respect they deserve! * Educate and grow enough PoCs that we don't have these stupid shortages and shenanigans! * And allow legal dick-punching of any company that acts racist! This is not the 1900s!
2 reasons. The first is because of what we see in parliament and eskom. Unfortunately there are a lot of unqualified people of colour in high positions. The second reason is ignorance. Most people that I have heard complain about this have had very little education or exposure to the working world and it's an easy way to blame their lack of success on something other than themselves.
Because systemically certain groups need to work harder to get accepted into tertiary institutions and to get a foot in the door when applying for jobs. Corporate positions have always been dictated by networks and politics (with basic competency being the only other requirement - not merit alone). I'm indian and it is clear as day that the generation of Indians before me (those who graduated circa 94 and work in corporate or government) had more opportunities than me because there were less educated black people at the time and there was a need for greater representation. Not to say they were less competent than their white peers, but they were also not any more competent than my generation, yet they achieved more materially. People think so because pure merit is not a thing and has never been. If you're poor and non-black, you will have to work a million times harder than your black equivalent in 2024 and that is a fact.
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a) I'm not an immigrant, so it's not like I chose anything. b) Why stop at continent (which itself is a foreign construct since Afro-Eurasia is one landmass)? We all know who the true natives of South Africa are (and only small traces of their DNA really still exist today). Would it be offensive if somebody said, we wouldn't have such issues if people stayed in the Niger-Congo basin? Of course it would, and this double standard is a huge problem in S.A
Idk. BEE makes a very small amount of black people rich. I mean stupidly small. In terms of a business ownership/ entrepreneurship point of view. So its not worth noting in my opinion. Where BEE makes a bigger difference is when you're looking for jobs. The less qualified black female will almost always be chosen over the more qualified white male. But that doesn't make black people rich. I mean are we talking supercar rich BEE babies? Because like I said they are few and far between. And no job will make you that rich, not likeley.
Stop caring about what they think, it’s projection or jealousy 9/10 of the time.
I own a company. And. BEE. Has killed it. So has it killed thousands of businesses alike. It’s not something you can look at a guy and say o his rich or successful because of BEE. It is entities. BEE consulting companies and those behind it. Making money and killing businesses in the process. You have to be a business owner. To understand that hat it does to your company.
How has BEE killed your business? Were you forced to hire incompetent people?
No. I have lost huge contracts. Due to the fact that I refused to become a BEE owned company
You have to be in business. And a business owner to under stand the way. BEE. Works. Even overseas investors have pulled out of SA. Because they refuse to become part of the BEE owned company structure. It is what it is. You will work years and years on trying to make your company a success. But if you do not have a high BEE rating. You will loose it all.
I don't think that. When I see a successful person of color, I tend to think the opposite and actually admire them for accomplishing what they did despite the obstacles they faced. Back at uni, my black peers were often better educated and eloquent than me. At work now, I can honestly say all the people of color I work with are all highly talented, skilled and I really feel a strong admiration towards them. I don't like BEE though and I feel people should get the spot based on their skills and not just the color of their skin or gender.
If BEE and Affirmative Action is damaging the reputation of people, and they are not gaining anything from it, then why is there no call from the public to repeal it?
To the whites that wanna complain about BEE: they have their Grandparents and ancestors to thank, if it wasn't for them (the architects of apartheid) we wouldn't need BEE in the first place. So if you white people wanna be angry at someone be angry at them
Lol this makes me laugh, my first interview with a big company after variety the interviewer was another white male he was straight up with me (24WM) . We are taking 20 people only 1 can be a white male, why should it be you? It's not like they send you a message oh well done you got this job to meet our BEE quote. It's just there all the time in the background affecting all their recruiting decisions.
Dont focus on that - you know the correct information about it - They just cant face seeing a person succeed - Tall Poppy Syndrome - Its a huge phenomenon in Aussie and NZ. In Scandinavia they have The **Law of Jante** - summarized in 10+1 rules: The ten rules state: 1. You're not to think *you* are anything special. 2. You're not to think *you* are as good as *we* are. 3. You're not to think *you* are smarter than *we* are. 4. You're not to imagine yourself better than *we* are. 5. You're not to think *you* know more than *we* do. 6. You're not to think *you* are more important than *we* are. 7. You're not to think *you* are good at anything. 8. You're not to laugh at *us*. 9. You're not to think anyone cares about *you*. 10. You're not to think *you* can teach *us* anything. The Janters who transgress this unwritten "law" are regarded with suspicion and some hostility, as it goes against the town's communal desire to preserve harmony, social stability and uniformity. An eleventh rule recognized as "the penal code of Jante" is: 1. Perhaps you don't think *we* know a few things about *you*? Ignore and set your own course - stop trying to live UP TO "Whites", live up to your own standards. But you will also sense TPS within communities \[like townships\] too!!!
ps - What is sad to see within communities is an attitude \[especially the youth\] of "I want it all and I want it now and I dont want to work hard for it".
Oh...trust me. You can tell if it's a BEE hire or not
I'm a white guy and sorry I have to ask what is B.E.E ?
I've just numbered my points so that, if you'd like, you can respond to my points coherently. I am doing this to avoid cross talking and miss communication. 1) I think the frustration comes from a position of people excelling and not getting into university because of race or not being hired. My one friend really is an ace student he got like an average of 90% and didn't get into medical after 3 years of applying. He's just had to go in another study path. 2) Or stuff like my Dad lost all 13 of his contracts as the governments photogropher in a blink of an eye that bankrupted him because he was white. (The funny thing is my Dad was taking photos for Nelson and has many famous struggle photographs even used in big places like the Apartheid museum) but because He's white he lost it all. 3) Also, in your response you say "we need more people of colour in medicine" or something along those lines. If you take that as a premise then yes you would be correct but that premise isn't correct in my honest opinion. Artificially changing something like equality of outcome doesn't produce good at all. I don't think people are opposed to black people succeeding they're just opposed to being held back or down to fit a political agenda. 4) If the government used our taxes to build a grassroots economy by teaching black people to be plumbers, tradesmen or a host of any other sustainable and things like that it would actually be good at cost of no one. You'll probably find that they could train 100 plumbers for the price of 10 doctors and it would make so much more of a difference. The only thing is that plumbers aren't as flashy as doctors so it doesn't fit a narrative. 5) In short, the goals of BEE only really fits the ANC government and doesn't really benefit anyone including most poor blacks. The only people that are *really* gaining are the politicians that need votes.
If you look at the top 10% in SA in terms of wealth, black people make up the majority. When you look at who those black people are, it skews perceptions as the majority of them are BEE beneficiaries. Of course, in reality, there are many successful black folks who didn't earn their riches purely because of BEE. Does BEE exist, sure. Has it benefited most successful black business, probably. Does that take away from the work that was put into building and running that business, surely not.
Because it's most likely the case