In my opinion, could a drafter learn all the civil related tools within Civil 3D? Sure. But is that their responsibility to lay out an alignment, establish profiles and run corridors correctly? I lean towards putting that responsibility on the engineer to do the engineering and design.
Appreciate the input. Looking at it that way, i suppose it might not lend its self to a markup in the same way that structural detailing does.
For example, running a corridor it’s self isn’t the time consuming part it’s the set up beforehand. And that set up is effectively what would need to be done to have someone else take it to completion, so the time spent probably ends up being the about the same if not longer.
Speaking for working in Civil 3D, the engineer is the one that should know what codes, standards, and requests that a client wants or needs to comply with. It is their responsibility to ensure that gets translated appropriately into the digital model. If the company decides to task the creation of the digital model to a drafter then that's their choice on workflow. Ultimately, the engineer is stamping the drawings so they need to have a comfort level on the accuracy of what the deliverables are at the end.
>For example, running a corridor it’s self isn’t the time consuming part it’s the set up beforehand.
lol it can be an extremely time consuming part of it depending on how accurate you want to get. I could set up assemblies for a corridor very quickly, doesn't change all of the targeting and making sure things are working and showing correctly.
Fair enough, I doubt I could hand them something that would work on the first try. Though the process making sure everything is shown and plotted properly, that is a task that would certainly be nice to hand off to someone else haha
Mainly the drafter/designer working in Civil 3D, but we always start out EITs doing a fair amount of Civil 3D as it's the best way to learn some things; such as grading design.
You’re going to get differing opinions on this but in my mind a well rounded engineer should absolutely be able to independently produce plans specifications and estimates. Civil 3d is one of the most, if not the most, powerful tool available for civil engineering design - so the professional engineer furnishing and stamping site development plans, drainage systems, utilities, roads etc.is seriously deficient if they can’t utilize the best tools available for the job.
In the real world most PEs I’ve worked with sadly cannot use C3D with professional competency and hang their hat on the old “that’s below my pay grade have a tech or drafter/designer do that” but the truth is most of the people I’ve heard say that are just lazy and honestly a bit pathetic with no drive to take ownership of their products. If you are a PE and are using C3D at a professional level you’re way more valuable than the PE one cubicle over that can’t produce complete packages but can simply stamp a design.
Agree with everything here. Problem most new grads have is the lack of training in the software. We generally go to school for 4-5 years learning about the analysis and performing calculations but are not taught how it translate to real world application on what is needed to be produced.
To go one step further, I've seen a lot of junior engineers struggle with trying to portray information in a graphical environment since they don't have any real experience with doing so from school.
It isn't just a software skill, but they don't know what to do in order to portray their designs visually.
> Problem most new grads have is the lack of training in the software.
What software would we teach civil engineering majors? Structural would benefit from AutoCAD, Revit, STAAD, Risa, RAM, eTabs... unless they're structural but for bridges, in which case it might be Civil 3D or Microstation, and midas or CsiBridge. That's just structural. There's all transportation, geotechnical, water resources, and more to consider that might be in the same civil engineering program.
I think the first problem to address is having different programs for the different civil engineering disciplines. With the increased specialty, more specific tools can be offered.
I'm of the belief that if you learn how to use one program for a specialty, you should be able to use that knowledge and translate to other similar software. Example for myself is going from Civil 3D to Microstation. The software at the end of the day is a tool for engineering.
I saw a lot of exactly this at my old company, and to the point that some of the engineers alongside me were aiming to not have to do the drafting and design work themselves once they got higher up.
That’s not what I’m looking for, which was part of why I left. Now that I’m the only person who can do it, it would be nice to have some help and reduce the bottleneck more so than try to get away from it myself.
As a drafter/designer that uses Civil 3D, I've noticed that it's getting harder to find others. When I started the path was to start as a drafter, gain experience, eventually become a designer. That path is pretty much gone as there is little demand for just a drafter. Along with the '08 housing crash, most of the designers I know went on to different careers and won't be coming back. Looks like most companies have gone to using EITs/young engineers for that job. With maybe one experienced designer helping with overflow work and being the CAD manager.
my company is doing everything it can to hire drafters. they see all the designers are mid 50ish and going g to retire in the next 10 years or so and are really trying to train up replacements
Most of our drafters are pretty proficient in Civil3D but a lot of them have also been working at our company for awhile. We don't have a ton of dedicated drafters and most plan production is usually done by EIT's and younger PE's. Probably difficult to find drafters who are proficient in the program that are looking for work but they're probably out there.
I feel like a lot of the stuff in C3D isn't something that you need an engineering degree to understand. There definitely are aspects of design that need engineering judgement and knowledge and that's when you defer to an engineer. We have on drafter in our smaller office and I'd trust him to put together good quality plans a hell of a lot more than I'd trust some other engineers that I've worked with.
Maybe the right approach is to expand the search to both young engineers as well as drafters then. It seems like either works, but younger engineers are easier to find. Thank you for the insight!
I kind of had a similar experience. The first company I worked for I had to use civil 3-D all the time. Most of the techs were being used to do projects for the PEs in the building. The projects that were pushed down to me to finish required me to do changes or modifications on my own. I learned how to do everything in CAD.
When I left that job, my second company required me to do more managerial tasks. Most of the EIT/PEs at my level, didn’t know how to use Civil 3D. We had more techs than my last job as well. But my CAD experience was pretty valuable when it came to designing or doing a layout or implementing standards into the assemblies before producing a corridor. Most of most of the techs did sheet set ups, viewport, and basic CAD stuff for projects.
In the UK there's a lot of overlap between those three roles, so if the project is done in C3D, ORD, etc then pretty much everyone from reviewer down needs to have at least a basic knowledge of it.
It depends on what it is used for. I've seen civil engineers use Civil3D and InRoads as a design tool to create the design within the 3D model. In my part of the world, this is generally seen as best practice, similar to an engineer 50 years ago doing some drafting to layout the baseline.
I've also seen drafters used as well, but a lot of their work is mainly to handle the more mundane tasks of making the plans look pretty, cleaning up minor issues, and adding notes.
If a drafter ends up performing some of the basic design tasks, we refer to them as detailers independent of drafters since we are acknowledging their skills as doing design instead of just operating a program.
At my company, engineers (both EITs and PEs) do all the drafting for civil and structural stuff while there are dedicated drafters/technicians for mechanical and electrical. Generally staff civil engineers have done the drafting everywhere I've worked, only PMs wouldn't need to use Civil 3D.
That’s because there is no pipeline to get into design from high school anymore. Companies have to use new engineering graduates because there are no other options.
I've said it here before. I'll probably say it again in the future. If you are doing civil engineering design and you are not using Civil 3D, or an equivalent, you aren't doing civil engineering design efficiently.
It is a design tool. It's also a drafting tool, an analysis tool, a reporting tool, etc.
In my practice, Civil 3D is used by nearly everyone involved in a project.
From what I’m told about the way they did things before I started, they used to just do it all by hand. Part of the reason I was brought on was likely because they realized it wasn’t efficient.
I certainly wouldn’t be against the whole team learning it, unless I was the tasked with training everyone haha
I've worked for the same company for over a decade. Started here as a drafter after getting my AA (also took CAD classes in HS) doing process mechanical and Civil. A few years later transitioned to Civil Designer and am now a Sr. Civil Designer.
When I first started, we had a rule that engineers were not allowed to do CAD (for the most part). Mostly because at the time they didn't know how and for those above me it seemed more trouble than it was worth. Probably about 4-ish years ago I was told we aren't going to hire drafters anymore, only designers. Around that same time we started pushing for graduate level engineers and EITs to start doing CAD. The kicker though is the EITs have basically replaced the drafter roles. I'd say about 80% of their workload is doing redlines for another engineer which before would have gone to a drafter. I understand this helps them learn working knowledge but it has come with it's own challenges - as they aren't trained CAD users. Some have taken to it well and others haven't.
But besides the recent EITs, most of our engineers have never used CAD or CIVIL 3D. At least on the Civil side. Most of our structural engineers I've worked with though do their own CAD work but mostly use a mix of Revit and vanilla AutoCAD.
That’s right in line with what I was doing when I first started, it often felt like my role was more of a drafter than an engineer. I think it was a good way to get familiar with the work at first, but after a while it felt like I wasn’t learning much anymore.
After all the time I’ve spent getting proficient in Civil3D I wouldn’t want to stop using it entirely.
Interestingly enough at this new job our structural engineers (me included) don’t use Revit at all. We have two architects currently that handle everything in Revit
I think part of the reason you aren't finding that experience available to recruit is because you have changed industry from infrastructure projects (bridges and culverts) to property / buildings. There is a bit of a software split between infrastructure/horizontal/Civil3d and buildings/vertical/revit. You might find more Civil3d experience in applicants from an infrastructure background.
The other discussions in this thread on drafter / designer / engineer roles around software are also relevant, and North America seems a little different to what I'm seeing in Aus (we still have new drafters coming in, who transition to designers after experience).
That’s a great point, none of the applicants we’ve had so far have been from the same background as me. I hadn’t considered that, and it sounds very possible
last time I've used Civil 3D, 2 years ago, Civil 3D - Revit compatibility was not really great, I would say close to non-existant and both are Autodesk. Revit can create surfaces much less sophisticated than Civil 3D, for example can't see breaklines ( surfaces imported from C3D), it's very limited tool. From my experience working as infrastracture/highway engineer and being some kind of support (sites etc.) for structural engineers, is not good idea, I'd say it's degradation as professional.
In my opinion, could a drafter learn all the civil related tools within Civil 3D? Sure. But is that their responsibility to lay out an alignment, establish profiles and run corridors correctly? I lean towards putting that responsibility on the engineer to do the engineering and design.
Nowhere I've worked has hired a new drafter for years. Most places expect engineers to be able to draft their own designs.
Appreciate the input. Looking at it that way, i suppose it might not lend its self to a markup in the same way that structural detailing does. For example, running a corridor it’s self isn’t the time consuming part it’s the set up beforehand. And that set up is effectively what would need to be done to have someone else take it to completion, so the time spent probably ends up being the about the same if not longer.
Speaking for working in Civil 3D, the engineer is the one that should know what codes, standards, and requests that a client wants or needs to comply with. It is their responsibility to ensure that gets translated appropriately into the digital model. If the company decides to task the creation of the digital model to a drafter then that's their choice on workflow. Ultimately, the engineer is stamping the drawings so they need to have a comfort level on the accuracy of what the deliverables are at the end.
>For example, running a corridor it’s self isn’t the time consuming part it’s the set up beforehand. lol it can be an extremely time consuming part of it depending on how accurate you want to get. I could set up assemblies for a corridor very quickly, doesn't change all of the targeting and making sure things are working and showing correctly.
Fair enough, I doubt I could hand them something that would work on the first try. Though the process making sure everything is shown and plotted properly, that is a task that would certainly be nice to hand off to someone else haha
Agreed. Learning it will make you stand out from other engineers as well.
Yep, all the time. It's not the standard on the structural side of things but seems to be in other civil disciplines.
Just to clarify, you mean that in your experience the drafter/designer is the one working directly in Civil 3D? Or both the engineer and the drafter?
Mainly the drafter/designer working in Civil 3D, but we always start out EITs doing a fair amount of Civil 3D as it's the best way to learn some things; such as grading design.
I see, so maybe we’re on the right track looking for designers. Just haven’t found any yet. Really appreciate the input. Thank you!
You’re going to get differing opinions on this but in my mind a well rounded engineer should absolutely be able to independently produce plans specifications and estimates. Civil 3d is one of the most, if not the most, powerful tool available for civil engineering design - so the professional engineer furnishing and stamping site development plans, drainage systems, utilities, roads etc.is seriously deficient if they can’t utilize the best tools available for the job. In the real world most PEs I’ve worked with sadly cannot use C3D with professional competency and hang their hat on the old “that’s below my pay grade have a tech or drafter/designer do that” but the truth is most of the people I’ve heard say that are just lazy and honestly a bit pathetic with no drive to take ownership of their products. If you are a PE and are using C3D at a professional level you’re way more valuable than the PE one cubicle over that can’t produce complete packages but can simply stamp a design.
Agree with everything here. Problem most new grads have is the lack of training in the software. We generally go to school for 4-5 years learning about the analysis and performing calculations but are not taught how it translate to real world application on what is needed to be produced.
To go one step further, I've seen a lot of junior engineers struggle with trying to portray information in a graphical environment since they don't have any real experience with doing so from school. It isn't just a software skill, but they don't know what to do in order to portray their designs visually.
> Problem most new grads have is the lack of training in the software. What software would we teach civil engineering majors? Structural would benefit from AutoCAD, Revit, STAAD, Risa, RAM, eTabs... unless they're structural but for bridges, in which case it might be Civil 3D or Microstation, and midas or CsiBridge. That's just structural. There's all transportation, geotechnical, water resources, and more to consider that might be in the same civil engineering program. I think the first problem to address is having different programs for the different civil engineering disciplines. With the increased specialty, more specific tools can be offered.
I'm of the belief that if you learn how to use one program for a specialty, you should be able to use that knowledge and translate to other similar software. Example for myself is going from Civil 3D to Microstation. The software at the end of the day is a tool for engineering.
I saw a lot of exactly this at my old company, and to the point that some of the engineers alongside me were aiming to not have to do the drafting and design work themselves once they got higher up. That’s not what I’m looking for, which was part of why I left. Now that I’m the only person who can do it, it would be nice to have some help and reduce the bottleneck more so than try to get away from it myself.
As a drafter/designer that uses Civil 3D, I've noticed that it's getting harder to find others. When I started the path was to start as a drafter, gain experience, eventually become a designer. That path is pretty much gone as there is little demand for just a drafter. Along with the '08 housing crash, most of the designers I know went on to different careers and won't be coming back. Looks like most companies have gone to using EITs/young engineers for that job. With maybe one experienced designer helping with overflow work and being the CAD manager.
my company is doing everything it can to hire drafters. they see all the designers are mid 50ish and going g to retire in the next 10 years or so and are really trying to train up replacements
Most of our drafters are pretty proficient in Civil3D but a lot of them have also been working at our company for awhile. We don't have a ton of dedicated drafters and most plan production is usually done by EIT's and younger PE's. Probably difficult to find drafters who are proficient in the program that are looking for work but they're probably out there. I feel like a lot of the stuff in C3D isn't something that you need an engineering degree to understand. There definitely are aspects of design that need engineering judgement and knowledge and that's when you defer to an engineer. We have on drafter in our smaller office and I'd trust him to put together good quality plans a hell of a lot more than I'd trust some other engineers that I've worked with.
Maybe the right approach is to expand the search to both young engineers as well as drafters then. It seems like either works, but younger engineers are easier to find. Thank you for the insight!
I kind of had a similar experience. The first company I worked for I had to use civil 3-D all the time. Most of the techs were being used to do projects for the PEs in the building. The projects that were pushed down to me to finish required me to do changes or modifications on my own. I learned how to do everything in CAD. When I left that job, my second company required me to do more managerial tasks. Most of the EIT/PEs at my level, didn’t know how to use Civil 3D. We had more techs than my last job as well. But my CAD experience was pretty valuable when it came to designing or doing a layout or implementing standards into the assemblies before producing a corridor. Most of most of the techs did sheet set ups, viewport, and basic CAD stuff for projects.
In the UK there's a lot of overlap between those three roles, so if the project is done in C3D, ORD, etc then pretty much everyone from reviewer down needs to have at least a basic knowledge of it.
It depends on what it is used for. I've seen civil engineers use Civil3D and InRoads as a design tool to create the design within the 3D model. In my part of the world, this is generally seen as best practice, similar to an engineer 50 years ago doing some drafting to layout the baseline. I've also seen drafters used as well, but a lot of their work is mainly to handle the more mundane tasks of making the plans look pretty, cleaning up minor issues, and adding notes. If a drafter ends up performing some of the basic design tasks, we refer to them as detailers independent of drafters since we are acknowledging their skills as doing design instead of just operating a program.
At my company, engineers (both EITs and PEs) do all the drafting for civil and structural stuff while there are dedicated drafters/technicians for mechanical and electrical. Generally staff civil engineers have done the drafting everywhere I've worked, only PMs wouldn't need to use Civil 3D.
That’s because there is no pipeline to get into design from high school anymore. Companies have to use new engineering graduates because there are no other options.
I've said it here before. I'll probably say it again in the future. If you are doing civil engineering design and you are not using Civil 3D, or an equivalent, you aren't doing civil engineering design efficiently. It is a design tool. It's also a drafting tool, an analysis tool, a reporting tool, etc. In my practice, Civil 3D is used by nearly everyone involved in a project.
From what I’m told about the way they did things before I started, they used to just do it all by hand. Part of the reason I was brought on was likely because they realized it wasn’t efficient. I certainly wouldn’t be against the whole team learning it, unless I was the tasked with training everyone haha
Unfortunately, I have met a lot of PMs and Senior PMs who never used C3D in their life. Not sure how they became PMs...
Me too. And it is unfortunate. When skill-set is limited so is value on a project.
except managers
I've worked for the same company for over a decade. Started here as a drafter after getting my AA (also took CAD classes in HS) doing process mechanical and Civil. A few years later transitioned to Civil Designer and am now a Sr. Civil Designer. When I first started, we had a rule that engineers were not allowed to do CAD (for the most part). Mostly because at the time they didn't know how and for those above me it seemed more trouble than it was worth. Probably about 4-ish years ago I was told we aren't going to hire drafters anymore, only designers. Around that same time we started pushing for graduate level engineers and EITs to start doing CAD. The kicker though is the EITs have basically replaced the drafter roles. I'd say about 80% of their workload is doing redlines for another engineer which before would have gone to a drafter. I understand this helps them learn working knowledge but it has come with it's own challenges - as they aren't trained CAD users. Some have taken to it well and others haven't. But besides the recent EITs, most of our engineers have never used CAD or CIVIL 3D. At least on the Civil side. Most of our structural engineers I've worked with though do their own CAD work but mostly use a mix of Revit and vanilla AutoCAD.
That’s right in line with what I was doing when I first started, it often felt like my role was more of a drafter than an engineer. I think it was a good way to get familiar with the work at first, but after a while it felt like I wasn’t learning much anymore. After all the time I’ve spent getting proficient in Civil3D I wouldn’t want to stop using it entirely. Interestingly enough at this new job our structural engineers (me included) don’t use Revit at all. We have two architects currently that handle everything in Revit
I think part of the reason you aren't finding that experience available to recruit is because you have changed industry from infrastructure projects (bridges and culverts) to property / buildings. There is a bit of a software split between infrastructure/horizontal/Civil3d and buildings/vertical/revit. You might find more Civil3d experience in applicants from an infrastructure background. The other discussions in this thread on drafter / designer / engineer roles around software are also relevant, and North America seems a little different to what I'm seeing in Aus (we still have new drafters coming in, who transition to designers after experience).
That’s a great point, none of the applicants we’ve had so far have been from the same background as me. I hadn’t considered that, and it sounds very possible
last time I've used Civil 3D, 2 years ago, Civil 3D - Revit compatibility was not really great, I would say close to non-existant and both are Autodesk. Revit can create surfaces much less sophisticated than Civil 3D, for example can't see breaklines ( surfaces imported from C3D), it's very limited tool. From my experience working as infrastracture/highway engineer and being some kind of support (sites etc.) for structural engineers, is not good idea, I'd say it's degradation as professional.