it would be a perfectly acceptable profession if player power wasnt tied to it.
quite a bit of envy in my guild for the dude who got the dwarf staff on solve 16 as many of us put in hundreds of solves to get our weapon, and some just gave up ltogethe
hell, it felt pretty bad when i rolled the staff on solve like 50 of dwarf when i will almost certainly never do anything significant on a caster dps
Our guild hasnt seen a staff or sword all pre patch, probably combining a few thousand solves lol.
I just wanna know how god damn fucking rare it is lol
We have one getting two swords sub 100 solves. (on two chars of course) and another one hasn't even gotten the kinda trashy shield in almost 900 total solves. Yep such a fun system, no change was needed whatsoever.
Just play the game dawg, be happy if you get the nice purple weapon, if not you will survive not having the 5% better BIS item lmfao. I promise you, you will survive, and even have a good time if you allow it
you are either an idiot or severly uninformed. The healer trinket for example will be bis for firelands progression. No meaningful playerpower? Jesus fuck dude..
Once the sad reality of post nerf raids sets in, a lot of healers will realize that the trinket isn't all it's gassed up to be once they got the tiniest amount of gear. So no, we are still looking at a bunch of autists spazzing out over pre bis gear.
Don't think releasing it in prepatch(didn't happen in retail) was also a intention but here we are and why it should have been changed already
They're going to speed up the legendary completation rate of both legendarys but won't increase archaeology drop rate?
I think it was 100% intended, because they knew people would grind away at it for hundreds of hours and boost "player engagement metrics"
what else would people do besides leveling a new character? there is no prepatch event like there is supposed to be
That's a good point. And those "never intended to be guaranteed" excuses in 2024 are just stupid when you consider the strength of the item compared to everything else at that moment and even for the foreseeable future.
Turns out I did the full Archaeology grind in MoP, WoD and BfA. It didnt provide any player power from memory. The achievements tied behind them were some of the most punishing and painful I've ever done in wow.
They gave you pristine completions which were fairly rare and you had to collect one for every solve. The problem was you had to get the right site, the right solve then roll the dice to land correctly for it to proc pristine. You got crates that let you reroll and randomize digsites which might be the only improvement that made it seem ok. Could trade the crates in for essentially a dig of your choice which was also ok. And teleport to a random digsite.
TLDR: Archaeology is a niche thing for bored completionists or extremely hungry lore enthusiasts and outside of cata launch was never used again for anything player power related.
This is probably one of the most toxic things in classic wow in a long time, has actually created anger towards fellow players for just getting handed their weapons without work while some of us are 50+ hours invested. Its not just me and I don't want to be i'd love to be happy for people but I literally just can't do it.
yeah I pretty much stopped at 350 solves, after not getting any of the epic items and spending hours + gold for the troll tablets, it made absolutely no sense and I wish I could get my time back that I put into it. There absolutely needs to be some form of bad luck protection.
I never heard of 500+ runs. I got mine at 267 runs and I think i was one of the unlucky warriors in my guild. Also the time investment was way lower since 2 people could do 5 runs in like 30 minutes easy and I was playing warrior (which I enjoyed playing) instead of doing a shitty game of hot/cold with a slot machine pull sometimes.
Also having some arch sites to feel completely pointless. It just has felt way worst to me
When I hit 200 dwarf solves I caved and then a few days later for the banter I tried the tinfoil hat method.
Basically dont touch a single dig until 450 for dwarf. Started solving and it was so strange, I had all the rares finished before the commons. It went like 5 common 1 rare. I had 0 repeats.
Then I hit all solved apart from the staff and figured fuck this, didnt work. But a buddy said you need to do about 5 more solves. I got the staff on 37.
Maybe it was pure chance, but I see more and more people saying to not touch dwarf till 450 and getting staff really early.
Its probably like me saying "buy lottery tickets, it works"
But it did work!
Just lvling it "normally" i got a lot of rares early on, basically having all troll/dwarf rares by the time i hit 450. Then I didn't get shit for several days until i finally got staff.
Imo it's likely just rng. Early on you have a high chance of rolling a rare since they cumulatively add up to a decent percentage of possible items. Later on since you can't get a rare twice the one or two remaining rare is just an isolated low chance roll.
yea its difficult to say if just pure rng or some pattern.
I would say that I tried it after seeing the method work for a few people. Tbh even doing it, i thought "this has to be bullshit". Was so shocked when it appeared
Yeah I am trying that tech tomorrow on one of my characters if I don't get it. I'm 2000 solves in right now no trinket staff or 2h. i'm 839 into troll and 646 into dwarf. How long do you think it would take to get to 300 not solving troll or dwarf because I want both of those weapons?
I did it in Kalimdor which wasnt so bad. I think it took me about 9hrs game time. Got lucky with it being almost always Night Elf digs. Had to do some fossil in EK at one stage.
Then I went to outland then to northrend to try and get as many nerub so they didnt spawn in EK
I applied the same method to troll and it didnt work :(
How many solves for troll did you do? On the second character. My guildy rerolled and got the 2h in 20 troll staff in 40 dwarf and then trinket in 25 night elf, troll and dwarf he saved but solved night elfs leveling and those were all within a few hour period the staff and trinket were back to back.
I just checked I had 46 troll solves.
Not sure if you can see this
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1174787274173599855/1239194663022493706/image.png?ex=66435af6&is=66420976&hm=a2d81ee7871f394358f105f715bcdb22acb0731da47e0aac31d8d647d5e9d3b3&
they should absolutely change arch this time around and make it so there's bad luck prevention. people want bis, people want to do well, people want to not have to fly around EK for another 1500 hours to try to get a prebis item that they are expected to have because it's "free".
they're already giving everyone and their brother a valanyr and shadowmourne, just make this shit easier. there's no reason not to.
It'd be one thing if it was just a time sink. The problem is you can sink that time in, over a thousand hours, and not make any progress at all. You can potentially do 5,000 solves and get nothing. I'm at nearly 1,000 between Troll, Fossil and Dwarf and haven't seen any of the epics yet.
If it was something simple like "after 400 solves you're guaranteed" that'd still be a frustratingly long slog of a grind, but it'd be a massive improvement over what we've got.
>to try to get a prebis item that they are expected to have because it's "free"
Yeah, uh, that ain't the game's fault, brother. It's the dogtrash community.
This quote just feels like some PR cope from ghostcrawler to why people hated Archaeology.
Seriously what does “Players missed a lot of the lore” mean? Yea sure each grey item has some cool flavor text but for example troll has 13-14 grey items and 2 rare toys. So in 16 or so solves I have seen all the items and would know all the “lore” so what do I gain by getting the same greys on repeat for hundreds of solves. It’s not like the lore text changes each time I earn an item.
If the lore was the focus each digsite would have its own item and it would take multiple digs to solve a grey item with more and more revealed as you complete a dig. This quote is just him covering his ass for a terrible profession.
I have absolutely no idea how he thought that archaeology was varied gameplay, at its core its just flying in laps to play a hot and cold game in a specific location, its without doubt one of the worst for gameplay and most useless skills in the game's history
The only reason I can think of that it was ever designed this way is to up user activity by giving them a brain off mini-game that never ends within the game so that the game looks better on MAU charts.
When it comes to the epics, if they don't want to players to farm them and that's not the intention, why did they ever add them? I really don't think this "you were never meant to farm them" thing is real, I think they just thought that the skill would bomb horrendously without the top end chase items and just sent it how it was. I notice his "mixed feelings" lead to the skill in mop having no items above heroic.
Can you imagine being the designer of an MMORPG and adding items to the game that you don't want your community to try to get? The result is insanely predictable
They simply could have put a pity counter on it and everything would be fine. Make it pretty high, like 150 solves for all I care but I have several guildmates that are at 200+ solves for their faction and haven't gotten their epic yet. It took me 66 solves and around 30 hours of grinding to get zinrokh, I can't imagine spending triple that time just for one item.
just wish they didn't add it to pre patch where you will do ~1.5k less DPS in prebis without it. Kinda makes people feel like they *need* to try to get it. I think it would've been fine to time gate until Cata release, or even p2 release.
what are the odds they make the epics easier to get before raid?
but now its even worst since some people will just quit if they didnt get their trinket in pre patch since priority goes elsewhere and they will prob not get it until full pre bis is done.
If a guild punishes you for bad RNG, leave. Any reasonable guild will accept that you solved 500+ artifacts and just got unlucky. If they are giving prio to the guy who solved 50 but got lucky, they arent ever going to have reasonable loot rules.
It's not as big, but still good.
for a Ret paladin it's like 6-7% from some estimates. Such a huge margin for a fucking slot machine RNG fest. Imagine just straight up doing 6% less DMG for a phase because you didn't win the lottery.
great feature.
Sounds like Legion all over again. Yet people praise that expansion as the second coming of green jesus.
But to be fair, you won't be doing 6% less damage for the whole phase. There's a handful of weapons from raids and with them being pre nerf your chances of getting another 359 or even 372 are much higher. So many players are going to replace Zin'rokh in the first week of raiding. You might even have prio on those without Zin'rokh over those that have it.
Depends on how many 2 handed heroic swords drop. Zinrohk is better than any of the normal mode ones I think, so for a guild that doesn't raid heroic it might actually be the best weapon they can get till phase 2
Which class uses sword specifically other than maybe humans? There should be a couple of "equal" sidegrades, but getting a true upgrade to Zin'rokh is probably only Nef + Magmaw heroic.
The only side grade for Zin on UHDK is NM Ashkandi. Everything else is worse and Zin is on par with or better than most heroic weapons (really only the Cho'gall axe compares) mainly because of the attack speed difference that makes Ashkandi HC (BiS) and Zin the only 3.8 speed 2h weapons in T11, which is a huge design oversight imo.
An easy fix to how mandatory the Zin grind feels would be to change weapon speeds on other 2-handers, but that seems more unlikely currently than making the Zin grind easier through a hotfix.
Yes, but it hurts a lot less that you don't have zin'rokh if you pick up a weapon that is 250 DPS worse, which was my point.
Zin'rokh mainly feels shit not to have because it's a HUGE damage loss, however, if it was 250 DPS better than the heroic blue, most people would not care.
I tested the UH sim really quick and just put on any of the heroic weapons and they are all better than Zinrokh, even with scuffed hit reforging and being slightly under cap.
A lot of unlucky people will sit on the heroic weapon for a while and the top guilds will buy Zin accounts (or bench players without it), which hurts the competitive integrity of the game, because having the archaeology weapon on your melee stack versus not having it makes a sizeable difference in raid DPS.
Most of this doesn't apply to people who progress through these raids on a week by week basis, but it severely hurts the people trying to push and the fact that this is decided through random luck or credit card swiping is what stings the most.
Yes, I completely agree, it hurts the "average" joe trying to push. I edited my other comment btw after I simmed. Every Heroic weapon is better than Zin'rokh on DK - Ashkandi is the the same - Axe+Mace were 200-100 DPS worse and that was WITHOUT fixing reforge too much.
It's only replaced by Heroic Ashkandi which is off the final boss of Heroic BWD if you are a Ret Paladin. The sword from Stonecore, Ashkandi and Zinrokh are the only 3.8s two hand weapons in the first phase. Some of the 3.6 speed weapons are decent just not ideal and taking them from say, Unholy DK's that don't care about Zin as much is kind of a dick move when you're gonna be fighting tooth and nail for the first Ashkandi.
I altered the DK sim for retribution and all heroic weapons are still replacing zin'rokh, but by a smaller margin than DK. Ashkandi normal is 1:1 and Magmaw mace is like 150 DPS below it. You're gonna be fine mate.
As a healer main in a community that is based on doing well i will have no chance to keep up if i do not have the trinket, as it is best in slot for healers even in firelands progression. I am currently 500 solves in with nothing to show for it..
I'm going to shit on the profession in a big way, just like I did 13.5 years ago. I don't give a shit about junk zin rok that I don't need anyway, just like the 1000th mount.
I'm getting really burned out on this activity.
There are lots of toys and cool stuff from this profession but the hours required and it being random is pissing me off.
If it was a 50 hour grind I'd be like fine sure, at least I know every hour is chipping away at it.
The current system could be 50 hours or 500 hours and you still might not finish.
The activity itself, red yellow green surveys really are so tedious and boring.
Completely remove red and only have yellow/green and it would be far more tolerable.
At about 400 troll solves right now, just had a guildie hit it at sub 100 after not even starting it the first week. Pretty absurd.
Blizzard not letting us finish off Fossil and remove those digsites is also bullshit. It would help a ton and be much more accurate, I've had the shield for a week now and the last thing is that stupid pet 2/3 of my sites are Fossil and it's brutal.
I'll hit 900 total solves today. Pretty burnt out.
Of course it will help. It would put fossil on a lower priority if you managed to collect them all. That means more NE sites in Kalimdor. The biggest frustration I’ve heard from talking to people is that they keep getting X dig site instead of the one they want. For me, it’s Troll and Fossil that I keep getting. Right now 7/8 of my old world sites are fossils. If I were able to lower their priority I’d be getting mostly Dwarf or Troll sites in EK (already knocked out Nerubian). More sites means more frags means more solves. More solves = better shot at the epics.
Players voluntarily subjecting themselves to 100 hours of grinding for a weapon and/or trinket that are not even good: "why would Blizzard do this to me???"
> aka who fucking cares
Tons of people I imagine. You tend to use your Pre-BiS for quite a while unless you get bless in your first raids.
Of course it will not make or break anything but it will surely feel very good to ding 85 and immediately equip a normal raid equivalent weapon.
As for the trinket, that's fair. I suppose many people just are gonna like a trinket with lots of int for lots of mana and spellpower all in one.
>who fucking cares
-Guy who realized he was full of shit
Heroic Ashkandi could not drop for weeks or months, you'd be using Zinrokh as Ret until you get it.
Zin is arguably bis until H Ashkandi. So bis until you kill a last boss of a raid tier at the hardest difficulty then getting the wep to drop and winning the roll, is pretty important. If it’s not then just give everyone the loot they want for free since loot isn’t important
It’s only prepatch and the “Cata was great, you’ll see!” crowd is already complaining. I’m beginning to think a lot of you weren’t here when Cata was around originally.
Oh, sure, the chase items aren't intended for everyone, but look, guys, the archaeology lore in this game is amazing. It's all 11-year-old jokes about 'crusty socks' and big-titty-dwarf-knockers.
(You can tell this expansion was designed during the peak-diddler period at Blizzard.)
My heart goes out to the people playing this in a hardcore speedrunny fashion.
If you're a random player and you're not having fun, maybe think about listening to that.
While I understand the items are pre raid bis, they’re on par with some of the opening tier items in normals and will be easily replaced by some raiders- I don’t see why there isn’t some sort of “loss-protection” for people targeting specific rares, given they won’t have as much longevity as some people think
3.80>3.60 making it effectively bis until heroic. Even then Ashkandi H is the first clear upgrade of the expansion. So you need to kill Nef H, have it drop and win the roll opposed to doing content that can be done on an alt toon/account that’s a slight downgrade and can be transferred between toons.
Yeah I’m not saying to not get it, I’m neck deep in the grind myself, it just feels awful being rng entirely because I like many others are 600+ solves deep with no 359 epics (other than the shield if you have shit luck like me)
Understood, just pointing out how atleast the sword is effectively BiS except for 1 upgrade which you really won’t even see until you have the entire H tier on farm. I’m also not a fan of the intensity of RNG it takes to get any of these epics especially since I attempted this grind back when cata was released and I only got the trinket, while playing not a single caster.
Yep, I know for sure I’ll get one of the caster items and give no fucks about it, just like the shield.— would be nice if you could maybe give it priority to a race and have it still be a chance on others, fuck idc let me take a “specialization” in a race so I can at least target it effectively-
I know for me it’ll have some serious longevity if I can ever beat the RNG while it’s relevant
Theres so many things I’d rather be doing during prepatch but 90% of my time has been doing Arch, like many others
The healer trinket is bis for firelands progression and on top of that fights are very unforgiving on mana for healers, meaning healers with the trinket will be brought and those who didn't win the RNG fiesta will be benched. Please inform yourself before speaking out loud idiot.
You’re cooked; nowhere did I discredit the value of the items, I just stated that “some raiders” meaning people that are in high-end guilds (Note that I didn’t say “most raiders”, will replace them..:
For most people, myself included: we may very well prog FL with these items equipped, granted we get the rng blessing to begin..
> Please inform yourself before speaking out loud idiot.
I'm eating so much popcorn and laughing at the salty tears from the whining over Archaeology epics. The sense of entitlement, the anger over lost min/maxing, the jealousy and insinuation that this is the worst thing ever in WoW. Hahaha.
Alright, maybe they should have stuck with Arch rewarding just toys, pets, mounts and gimmick items, or perhaps just not award weapons, but other gear slots of less impact, but we're playing Cataclysm Classic. Don't replay old versions of WoW if you don't like them. The further we get up the expansions, then less #somechanges there will be, because it's more balanced and modernized already. Maybe MoP won't have a single #somechange because it's already so relatively modern.
It's a good weapon, but at the end of the day it's just a normal difficulty weapon.
It won't make or break anyone's raid.
I personally got it, but I'm a tank so it's whatever.
You don’t know how good it is, it may be ilvl 359, but it’s better than every other one and every 372 wep except for H Ashkandi. So it’s effectively a 372 wep at that point.
We’re getting post nerf raids so it’s not as important as it was back in the day, but it’s better than every single option other than 1. It’s not just a normal difficulty wep.
it would be a perfectly acceptable profession if player power wasnt tied to it. quite a bit of envy in my guild for the dude who got the dwarf staff on solve 16 as many of us put in hundreds of solves to get our weapon, and some just gave up ltogethe hell, it felt pretty bad when i rolled the staff on solve like 50 of dwarf when i will almost certainly never do anything significant on a caster dps
Our guild hasnt seen a staff or sword all pre patch, probably combining a few thousand solves lol. I just wanna know how god damn fucking rare it is lol
The current estimate seems to be 0.2-0.5% chance according to the dk discord.
Yeah, its prob around 0.5%. Lower than that makes no sense.
its rare. i got mine on solve 257 and im led to believe thats average luck at best. we did hve a guy get his sub-125 solves though
We have one getting two swords sub 100 solves. (on two chars of course) and another one hasn't even gotten the kinda trashy shield in almost 900 total solves. Yep such a fun system, no change was needed whatsoever.
Yeah, I am at 400 on both. Too invested to quit lol
Just play the game dawg, be happy if you get the nice purple weapon, if not you will survive not having the 5% better BIS item lmfao. I promise you, you will survive, and even have a good time if you allow it
There is no meaningful amount of player power tied to it. These are pre bis items, not even competitive with raid gear.
you are either an idiot or severly uninformed. The healer trinket for example will be bis for firelands progression. No meaningful playerpower? Jesus fuck dude..
Once the sad reality of post nerf raids sets in, a lot of healers will realize that the trinket isn't all it's gassed up to be once they got the tiniest amount of gear. So no, we are still looking at a bunch of autists spazzing out over pre bis gear.
Don't think releasing it in prepatch(didn't happen in retail) was also a intention but here we are and why it should have been changed already They're going to speed up the legendary completation rate of both legendarys but won't increase archaeology drop rate?
I think it was 100% intended, because they knew people would grind away at it for hundreds of hours and boost "player engagement metrics" what else would people do besides leveling a new character? there is no prepatch event like there is supposed to be
That's a good point. And those "never intended to be guaranteed" excuses in 2024 are just stupid when you consider the strength of the item compared to everything else at that moment and even for the foreseeable future.
I mean, that excuse is from 2010. Blizz hasn’t commented on it now.
It has been stated in multiple threads here by blizzard apologists.
So you wanted people to even grind harder when cata comes out? Its better that people complete 1 grind now than do it all at same time.
No I'm pretty sure the point is #noChanges is stupid in Cata. No need to keep a horrible system that was already horrible in 2010.
So if we are at it then just don't release Cata, the whole expansion was horrible.
Turns out I did the full Archaeology grind in MoP, WoD and BfA. It didnt provide any player power from memory. The achievements tied behind them were some of the most punishing and painful I've ever done in wow. They gave you pristine completions which were fairly rare and you had to collect one for every solve. The problem was you had to get the right site, the right solve then roll the dice to land correctly for it to proc pristine. You got crates that let you reroll and randomize digsites which might be the only improvement that made it seem ok. Could trade the crates in for essentially a dig of your choice which was also ok. And teleport to a random digsite. TLDR: Archaeology is a niche thing for bored completionists or extremely hungry lore enthusiasts and outside of cata launch was never used again for anything player power related.
So it's lame and a waste of time
This is probably one of the most toxic things in classic wow in a long time, has actually created anger towards fellow players for just getting handed their weapons without work while some of us are 50+ hours invested. Its not just me and I don't want to be i'd love to be happy for people but I literally just can't do it.
yeah I pretty much stopped at 350 solves, after not getting any of the epic items and spending hours + gold for the troll tablets, it made absolutely no sense and I wish I could get my time back that I put into it. There absolutely needs to be some form of bad luck protection.
tell it to warriors who did 500+ arena runs for sgc
I never heard of 500+ runs. I got mine at 267 runs and I think i was one of the unlucky warriors in my guild. Also the time investment was way lower since 2 people could do 5 runs in like 30 minutes easy and I was playing warrior (which I enjoyed playing) instead of doing a shitty game of hot/cold with a slot machine pull sometimes. Also having some arch sites to feel completely pointless. It just has felt way worst to me
Was farming it since phase 1 till AQ40, it's never dropped
When I hit 200 dwarf solves I caved and then a few days later for the banter I tried the tinfoil hat method. Basically dont touch a single dig until 450 for dwarf. Started solving and it was so strange, I had all the rares finished before the commons. It went like 5 common 1 rare. I had 0 repeats. Then I hit all solved apart from the staff and figured fuck this, didnt work. But a buddy said you need to do about 5 more solves. I got the staff on 37. Maybe it was pure chance, but I see more and more people saying to not touch dwarf till 450 and getting staff really early. Its probably like me saying "buy lottery tickets, it works" But it did work!
Just lvling it "normally" i got a lot of rares early on, basically having all troll/dwarf rares by the time i hit 450. Then I didn't get shit for several days until i finally got staff. Imo it's likely just rng. Early on you have a high chance of rolling a rare since they cumulatively add up to a decent percentage of possible items. Later on since you can't get a rare twice the one or two remaining rare is just an isolated low chance roll.
yea its difficult to say if just pure rng or some pattern. I would say that I tried it after seeing the method work for a few people. Tbh even doing it, i thought "this has to be bullshit". Was so shocked when it appeared
Yeah I am trying that tech tomorrow on one of my characters if I don't get it. I'm 2000 solves in right now no trinket staff or 2h. i'm 839 into troll and 646 into dwarf. How long do you think it would take to get to 300 not solving troll or dwarf because I want both of those weapons?
I did it in Kalimdor which wasnt so bad. I think it took me about 9hrs game time. Got lucky with it being almost always Night Elf digs. Had to do some fossil in EK at one stage. Then I went to outland then to northrend to try and get as many nerub so they didnt spawn in EK I applied the same method to troll and it didnt work :(
How many solves for troll did you do? On the second character. My guildy rerolled and got the 2h in 20 troll staff in 40 dwarf and then trinket in 25 night elf, troll and dwarf he saved but solved night elfs leveling and those were all within a few hour period the staff and trinket were back to back.
I just checked I had 46 troll solves. Not sure if you can see this https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1174787274173599855/1239194663022493706/image.png?ex=66435af6&is=66420976&hm=a2d81ee7871f394358f105f715bcdb22acb0731da47e0aac31d8d647d5e9d3b3&
That tech definitely doesn’t work guaranteed. I leveled two characters to 450 without touching Troll. 200 solves into them both and no sword.
they should absolutely change arch this time around and make it so there's bad luck prevention. people want bis, people want to do well, people want to not have to fly around EK for another 1500 hours to try to get a prebis item that they are expected to have because it's "free". they're already giving everyone and their brother a valanyr and shadowmourne, just make this shit easier. there's no reason not to.
It'd be one thing if it was just a time sink. The problem is you can sink that time in, over a thousand hours, and not make any progress at all. You can potentially do 5,000 solves and get nothing. I'm at nearly 1,000 between Troll, Fossil and Dwarf and haven't seen any of the epics yet. If it was something simple like "after 400 solves you're guaranteed" that'd still be a frustratingly long slog of a grind, but it'd be a massive improvement over what we've got.
>to try to get a prebis item that they are expected to have because it's "free" Yeah, uh, that ain't the game's fault, brother. It's the dogtrash community.
A terrible system is still terrible with or without the community.
This quote just feels like some PR cope from ghostcrawler to why people hated Archaeology. Seriously what does “Players missed a lot of the lore” mean? Yea sure each grey item has some cool flavor text but for example troll has 13-14 grey items and 2 rare toys. So in 16 or so solves I have seen all the items and would know all the “lore” so what do I gain by getting the same greys on repeat for hundreds of solves. It’s not like the lore text changes each time I earn an item. If the lore was the focus each digsite would have its own item and it would take multiple digs to solve a grey item with more and more revealed as you complete a dig. This quote is just him covering his ass for a terrible profession.
I have absolutely no idea how he thought that archaeology was varied gameplay, at its core its just flying in laps to play a hot and cold game in a specific location, its without doubt one of the worst for gameplay and most useless skills in the game's history The only reason I can think of that it was ever designed this way is to up user activity by giving them a brain off mini-game that never ends within the game so that the game looks better on MAU charts. When it comes to the epics, if they don't want to players to farm them and that's not the intention, why did they ever add them? I really don't think this "you were never meant to farm them" thing is real, I think they just thought that the skill would bomb horrendously without the top end chase items and just sent it how it was. I notice his "mixed feelings" lead to the skill in mop having no items above heroic. Can you imagine being the designer of an MMORPG and adding items to the game that you don't want your community to try to get? The result is insanely predictable
Exactly. That excuse is just pathetic and even more so in a 2024 prepatch with nothing else to do besides that.
he's wrong it **is** a delivery system for purples he is trying to blame water for flowing down the mountain
They simply could have put a pity counter on it and everything would be fine. Make it pretty high, like 150 solves for all I care but I have several guildmates that are at 200+ solves for their faction and haven't gotten their epic yet. It took me 66 solves and around 30 hours of grinding to get zinrokh, I can't imagine spending triple that time just for one item.
And yet here we are, grinding in an RNG infested hellscape Soon Zinrokh, soon we will be free (Wolverine meme here)
just wish they didn't add it to pre patch where you will do ~1.5k less DPS in prebis without it. Kinda makes people feel like they *need* to try to get it. I think it would've been fine to time gate until Cata release, or even p2 release. what are the odds they make the epics easier to get before raid?
The Night Elf Trinket is phase 1 BiS for every healer, I believe. It isn't just pre-bis stuff.
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but now its even worst since some people will just quit if they didnt get their trinket in pre patch since priority goes elsewhere and they will prob not get it until full pre bis is done.
If a guild punishes you for bad RNG, leave. Any reasonable guild will accept that you solved 500+ artifacts and just got unlucky. If they are giving prio to the guy who solved 50 but got lucky, they arent ever going to have reasonable loot rules.
1.5k dps is like 5.5% on the sim.. That's pretty insane. Is the staff just as strong for casters?
Not quite as much, but it's still Pre-bis by a huge margin.
It's not as big, but still good. for a Ret paladin it's like 6-7% from some estimates. Such a huge margin for a fucking slot machine RNG fest. Imagine just straight up doing 6% less DMG for a phase because you didn't win the lottery. great feature.
Sounds like Legion all over again. Yet people praise that expansion as the second coming of green jesus. But to be fair, you won't be doing 6% less damage for the whole phase. There's a handful of weapons from raids and with them being pre nerf your chances of getting another 359 or even 372 are much higher. So many players are going to replace Zin'rokh in the first week of raiding. You might even have prio on those without Zin'rokh over those that have it.
It's not for a phase mate, come on, but it is possibly for like 3-4 weeks.
Depends on how many 2 handed heroic swords drop. Zinrohk is better than any of the normal mode ones I think, so for a guild that doesn't raid heroic it might actually be the best weapon they can get till phase 2
Which class uses sword specifically other than maybe humans? There should be a couple of "equal" sidegrades, but getting a true upgrade to Zin'rokh is probably only Nef + Magmaw heroic.
The only side grade for Zin on UHDK is NM Ashkandi. Everything else is worse and Zin is on par with or better than most heroic weapons (really only the Cho'gall axe compares) mainly because of the attack speed difference that makes Ashkandi HC (BiS) and Zin the only 3.8 speed 2h weapons in T11, which is a huge design oversight imo. An easy fix to how mandatory the Zin grind feels would be to change weapon speeds on other 2-handers, but that seems more unlikely currently than making the Zin grind easier through a hotfix.
Yes, but it hurts a lot less that you don't have zin'rokh if you pick up a weapon that is 250 DPS worse, which was my point. Zin'rokh mainly feels shit not to have because it's a HUGE damage loss, however, if it was 250 DPS better than the heroic blue, most people would not care. I tested the UH sim really quick and just put on any of the heroic weapons and they are all better than Zinrokh, even with scuffed hit reforging and being slightly under cap.
A lot of unlucky people will sit on the heroic weapon for a while and the top guilds will buy Zin accounts (or bench players without it), which hurts the competitive integrity of the game, because having the archaeology weapon on your melee stack versus not having it makes a sizeable difference in raid DPS. Most of this doesn't apply to people who progress through these raids on a week by week basis, but it severely hurts the people trying to push and the fact that this is decided through random luck or credit card swiping is what stings the most.
Yes, I completely agree, it hurts the "average" joe trying to push. I edited my other comment btw after I simmed. Every Heroic weapon is better than Zin'rokh on DK - Ashkandi is the the same - Axe+Mace were 200-100 DPS worse and that was WITHOUT fixing reforge too much.
It's only replaced by Heroic Ashkandi which is off the final boss of Heroic BWD if you are a Ret Paladin. The sword from Stonecore, Ashkandi and Zinrokh are the only 3.8s two hand weapons in the first phase. Some of the 3.6 speed weapons are decent just not ideal and taking them from say, Unholy DK's that don't care about Zin as much is kind of a dick move when you're gonna be fighting tooth and nail for the first Ashkandi.
I altered the DK sim for retribution and all heroic weapons are still replacing zin'rokh, but by a smaller margin than DK. Ashkandi normal is 1:1 and Magmaw mace is like 150 DPS below it. You're gonna be fine mate.
Balance Druid prebis is 21.6k with staff, 20.9k without. The sim also misses some stuff realistic numbers are closer to 22.2k with 21.5k without
As a healer main in a community that is based on doing well i will have no chance to keep up if i do not have the trinket, as it is best in slot for healers even in firelands progression. I am currently 500 solves in with nothing to show for it..
People would have to grind twice more if it came out with cata.
Imagine thinking you need that shit on the post nerf client of Cata.
You don't need any gear. Raid in greens I guess.
What happened to some #Changes? This shit needs changed in some way as of yesterday. Open your eyes Blizzard.
I'm going to shit on the profession in a big way, just like I did 13.5 years ago. I don't give a shit about junk zin rok that I don't need anyway, just like the 1000th mount.
well blizzard's mistake once more to release the profession in its current state during pre-patch and not on game launch
I'm getting really burned out on this activity. There are lots of toys and cool stuff from this profession but the hours required and it being random is pissing me off. If it was a 50 hour grind I'd be like fine sure, at least I know every hour is chipping away at it. The current system could be 50 hours or 500 hours and you still might not finish. The activity itself, red yellow green surveys really are so tedious and boring. Completely remove red and only have yellow/green and it would be far more tolerable.
At about 400 troll solves right now, just had a guildie hit it at sub 100 after not even starting it the first week. Pretty absurd. Blizzard not letting us finish off Fossil and remove those digsites is also bullshit. It would help a ton and be much more accurate, I've had the shield for a week now and the last thing is that stupid pet 2/3 of my sites are Fossil and it's brutal. I'll hit 900 total solves today. Pretty burnt out.
Funny he brings up the Archaeology journal, because that is broken too. The solved rares it shows is about as random as the profession itself.
I guess for every person that got it early there is a person who is still solving.
Honestly if they just hotfixed the pterrodax pet to be able to obtain at 450 arch it would help a lot of the frustration.
won't change the people with 2k Nelf solves and no trinket. The droprates themselves are pure RNG.
Of course it will help. It would put fossil on a lower priority if you managed to collect them all. That means more NE sites in Kalimdor. The biggest frustration I’ve heard from talking to people is that they keep getting X dig site instead of the one they want. For me, it’s Troll and Fossil that I keep getting. Right now 7/8 of my old world sites are fossils. If I were able to lower their priority I’d be getting mostly Dwarf or Troll sites in EK (already knocked out Nerubian). More sites means more frags means more solves. More solves = better shot at the epics.
Players voluntarily subjecting themselves to 100 hours of grinding for a weapon and/or trinket that are not even good: "why would Blizzard do this to me???"
What are you smoking? The weapons are Pre-BiS and the trinket is BiS for healers for P1 lul.
>Pre-BiS aka who fucking cares >trinket is BiS Healer trinkets are feelycrafting, I would always prefer a throughput trinket
> aka who fucking cares Tons of people I imagine. You tend to use your Pre-BiS for quite a while unless you get bless in your first raids. Of course it will not make or break anything but it will surely feel very good to ding 85 and immediately equip a normal raid equivalent weapon. As for the trinket, that's fair. I suppose many people just are gonna like a trinket with lots of int for lots of mana and spellpower all in one.
>who fucking cares -Guy who realized he was full of shit Heroic Ashkandi could not drop for weeks or months, you'd be using Zinrokh as Ret until you get it.
Zin is arguably bis until H Ashkandi. So bis until you kill a last boss of a raid tier at the hardest difficulty then getting the wep to drop and winning the roll, is pretty important. If it’s not then just give everyone the loot they want for free since loot isn’t important
Based dabbing on “muh prebis” tards. They only have themselves to blame for this and the state of classic
It’s only prepatch and the “Cata was great, you’ll see!” crowd is already complaining. I’m beginning to think a lot of you weren’t here when Cata was around originally.
Oh, sure, the chase items aren't intended for everyone, but look, guys, the archaeology lore in this game is amazing. It's all 11-year-old jokes about 'crusty socks' and big-titty-dwarf-knockers. (You can tell this expansion was designed during the peak-diddler period at Blizzard.)
My heart goes out to the people playing this in a hardcore speedrunny fashion. If you're a random player and you're not having fun, maybe think about listening to that.
While I understand the items are pre raid bis, they’re on par with some of the opening tier items in normals and will be easily replaced by some raiders- I don’t see why there isn’t some sort of “loss-protection” for people targeting specific rares, given they won’t have as much longevity as some people think
3.80>3.60 making it effectively bis until heroic. Even then Ashkandi H is the first clear upgrade of the expansion. So you need to kill Nef H, have it drop and win the roll opposed to doing content that can be done on an alt toon/account that’s a slight downgrade and can be transferred between toons.
Yeah I’m not saying to not get it, I’m neck deep in the grind myself, it just feels awful being rng entirely because I like many others are 600+ solves deep with no 359 epics (other than the shield if you have shit luck like me)
Understood, just pointing out how atleast the sword is effectively BiS except for 1 upgrade which you really won’t even see until you have the entire H tier on farm. I’m also not a fan of the intensity of RNG it takes to get any of these epics especially since I attempted this grind back when cata was released and I only got the trinket, while playing not a single caster.
Yep, I know for sure I’ll get one of the caster items and give no fucks about it, just like the shield.— would be nice if you could maybe give it priority to a race and have it still be a chance on others, fuck idc let me take a “specialization” in a race so I can at least target it effectively- I know for me it’ll have some serious longevity if I can ever beat the RNG while it’s relevant Theres so many things I’d rather be doing during prepatch but 90% of my time has been doing Arch, like many others
The healer trinket is bis for firelands progression and on top of that fights are very unforgiving on mana for healers, meaning healers with the trinket will be brought and those who didn't win the RNG fiesta will be benched. Please inform yourself before speaking out loud idiot.
You’re cooked; nowhere did I discredit the value of the items, I just stated that “some raiders” meaning people that are in high-end guilds (Note that I didn’t say “most raiders”, will replace them..: For most people, myself included: we may very well prog FL with these items equipped, granted we get the rng blessing to begin.. > Please inform yourself before speaking out loud idiot.
I'm eating so much popcorn and laughing at the salty tears from the whining over Archaeology epics. The sense of entitlement, the anger over lost min/maxing, the jealousy and insinuation that this is the worst thing ever in WoW. Hahaha. Alright, maybe they should have stuck with Arch rewarding just toys, pets, mounts and gimmick items, or perhaps just not award weapons, but other gear slots of less impact, but we're playing Cataclysm Classic. Don't replay old versions of WoW if you don't like them. The further we get up the expansions, then less #somechanges there will be, because it's more balanced and modernized already. Maybe MoP won't have a single #somechange because it's already so relatively modern.
It's a good weapon, but at the end of the day it's just a normal difficulty weapon. It won't make or break anyone's raid. I personally got it, but I'm a tank so it's whatever.
"I got mine so why are other people complaining?"
I'm tank It's just a stat stick anyway.
You don’t know how good it is, it may be ilvl 359, but it’s better than every other one and every 372 wep except for H Ashkandi. So it’s effectively a 372 wep at that point. We’re getting post nerf raids so it’s not as important as it was back in the day, but it’s better than every single option other than 1. It’s not just a normal difficulty wep.