I fully expect that even if Garland wants a trade, he and his camp aren’t dumb enough to press the issue right now.
With the current market and his perceived value, the way forward if you do want a trade is to go out and have a bounce-back start to the season.
It’s also possible that he was one of the players that was done with JB. If he likes the new coach it’s a lot easier to stick around.
Agreed. If anything his stock being lower would be better for him. The team trading for him would have to give up less to get him therefor the team he goes to will either be better currently or give up less future assets. If it’s true that he was tired of JB it could explain why he wasn’t performing as well as he can
DG ain't goin anywhere. How many times have you read about those couch GMs saying Allen was getting traded? He's still a Cavalier. There wasn't any truth to those articles
This guy gets it..
Too many want to believe people because they posted something on the web but never take the time to see what the players have said.
DM said he was Happy in Cleveland but was only going to sign a 3 year contract as a bet on himself.
DG never said he wanted to leave but did say he is discouraged by the way the system was set up.
Allen will he is a tough one being he doesn't really do social media, but never was one person able to back up their argument with anything close to being from Allen's mouth.
These young bucks know they may be young but understand together they have the talent to become the next GS warriors.
Yes they are that talented..
It’s more that too many people don’t read what is being said and run with misplaced understanding. The articles, for the most part have been speculative in stating cavs may be exploring x, had discussions about x, or x player may request a trade. But a large number of fans take that as a statement of truth.
For instance, did the cavs probably have some early discussions about garland? Yes. Did Garlands camp likely consider what a trade could look like? Yes. But neither of those mean they are pushing for a trade or want a trade like many think.
Buddy was in the trenches yesterday claiming he had a PhD in statistics and that we need to stop playing losing players like Garland and start playing winning players like Damian Jones more (2x NBA champion btw)
92.3 the fan yesterday was saying Mobley needs to be the best player on the team for the Cavs. Dustin Fox said that isn't happening and I couldn't agree with him more. I don't think it needs to happen either.
I think he should be second. He should get more touches in the post and the chance to play make. Too often he got heavily involved in the first half only to be completely iced out the rest of the game.
Yeah, I’m hopeful. If memory serves he also started Lopez towards a floor-spreading 5. So with any luck he can help develop more of a consistent shot out of Mobley.
Your memory is correct. Lopez went from averaging 0.2 three point attempts per game the season before Kenny to 5.2 per game in his first and only year with him as coach
That was before we traded for Mitchell, not after. You couldn't expect a guy like Garland with his inability to every be a quality defender due to his size to be the best player.
Mobley's ball security is worse than Allen's. it's frustrating for Don the same way Rudy's bumblefucking around used to be.
Darius is much better with Evan and is a better passer.
i don't know what that means. if all of the core 4 are stars in their roles it will be enough. there's shooting, creation and defense (and mobley and allen are fine to guard wings fwiw)
I mean l, what’s going to make him considered the best player. Seems very vague.
I don’t think he needs to be best player, but a 3 point shot would open up this offense and take it to the next level. He already has solid playmaking at top of the paint so adding a pick and pop as well as pulling him further from the rim will open up the paint a lot more when Allen is in.
yeah, DG is weirdly fine on-ball against PGs he respects (in particular he played Maxey really tough last year but got smoked by Tre Mann) and Mitchell is fine guarding any SG. having two rim protectors in back helps too.
He liked Dons instagram post about “not fucking leaving”. So I figure he’s on board. And he should be. Brand new system, much faster pace which plays so much more into his style of play. Him and Kenny have been chatting it up.
Only way I’m trading DG is if it’s for Lauri back. But given that Murray return, that’s probably no where near enough for Danny “Rob you blind” Ainge.
I think Atkinson is gonna get Darius and spider to complement each other well. I think Mitchell is gonna play off ball more and Darius will be primary ball handler. It's gonna open up more lanes for the twin towers to operate
Darius has a $40-45m contract until 2028. His stats are mediocre (below average TS and awful BPM/VORP) and he is a huge defensive liability. We would have to give Orlando more for taking on that horrible contract. Suggs still has his rookie contract.
His prior 2 years still doesn't justify this horrible contract. His contract was based on potential. The staff thought he would become an All NBA player
Yes it does. They are paying Scottie Barnes on the expectation that he will elevate his game to all NBA level. All NBA players are being paid similar contracts
OG Anunoby is making slightly more than DG on his new contract. His career accolades are....1 2nd team all defense, that's it. I think you need to get a little better understanding of current NBA salaries
Suggs is in the last year of his rookie contract, he is getting a fat extension this summer himself
Darius has a career .560 TS% compared to a league average of .570. Think about that - league average, not for his position. That means that it includes rim running 5s and players like Okoro who only shoot wide open 3s and dunks. DG is an efficient scorer by pretty much any metric
BPM and VORP are kinda weak, but if we are going by that...
Career BPM: DG is -0.3, Suggs is -1.4
Career VORP: DG is 4.3, Suggs is 0.7
You didn't even mention WS/48, where DG is .076 and Suggs is .047
Suggs first two years were awful but his last year was much better. Compare their advanced stats from last year. Suggs was the better player.
A .076 WS/48 is bottom tier and hardly justifies a $45 million contract. Suggs had a much better WS/48 last year at .112. DG had a .067 which ranked 147th in the NBA
Ah so you are just going to cherry pick some basketball-reference "advanced stats" for Suggs' best year and a down year for DG, nice. How about the previous 2 seasons when DG crushed Suggs last year?
[https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/](https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/)
Above is the best advanced metric system that is publicly available. Check DG and Suggs and get back to me
As I've told you, Suggs was one of the worst NBA players his first 2 years. He was still learning the system. He got much better last year. We are comparing the players they are now.
Well, if you knew anything about stats the better comparison is between the two players at similar points in heir careers. Try looking at your advanced stats comparing them for their 3rd year only
Lol my man...you are basing trade values by comparing the ONLY year Suggs has been healthy to an injury ravaged year for DG. Does that really make sense?
Fortunately, most NBA FOs are not nearly as short sighted as the general fandom. They consider the body of work, not just the most recent work, especially for a player who is 24. Remember this time last year when fools on this sub said JA had negative trade value based on the Knicks series? You're doing the same shit now with DG
I wonder how Suggs would do getting his face broken twice in a year and having his jaw wired where he couldn’t eat and loses a ton of weight in the middle of the season. Do you think he would still be able to average his 12.6 pts and 2.7 assts a game? Garland averaged 18pts and 6.5 pts on 45% shooting with multiple major injuries.
People are so forgetful that Garland is one year removed from being talked about as being one of the best young PGs in the league and one of the best passers, facilitators, and handles in the league. He was also a 40% 3pt shooter until this year. He averaged 22 and 8 over 2 years on 46% shooting averaging the same amount of steals as Suggs. He has one injury riddled year and people want to dump him for scraps.
Not that Jalen Suggs is scraps, but no one can seriously consider this a true upgrade over the Garland we have seen play for the Cavs. Comparing Suggs best year with Garlands worst, when it’s still debatable how much better of a year Suggs had, shows how good Garland is. I know what I’ve seen, and Ill trust the two years prior to this when he was an all star level player.
Awful Coaching really lives up to the name, his analysis is absolutely terrible.
I know people find him funny, but he's just doing an extended comedy bit not actual analysis.
What the fuck are you talking about?
I said an individual player's advanced metrics typically decrease as their usage increases. That doesn't anywhere suggest high usage means bad advanced stats. This has been proven over and over.
In your half-thought out scenario, that would be equate to Embiid's advanced stats being better if his usage decreased which most likely would happen. That doesn't mean that's better for the team or the player, but would typically equate to better looks, less fatigue, and less minutes.
What individual metrics typically decrease as their usage increases? Be specific and I'll do the analysis for you
Why does DG have awful advanced metrics with high usage but other players like Haliburton and SGA don't?
Literally almost every stat. PER, Offensive and Defensive Rating, A/TO, TS%.
"While it's not always true, for most players as their usage increases their efficiency will decrease. It's just difficult to create efficient shots — that's why the best offensive players in the NBA are those that can create these efficient shots even with a high usage."
https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/guide/player_offensive_overview
According to the advanced metrics for one year where Garland struggled through injury the entire time? Did you know he has actually played other seasons? Seasons where he absolutely fucking smoked Suggs in all advanced metrics?
Actually we would have to give them more. DG's contract is very bad. Suggs is still on his rookie contract. We would have to attach some picks, maybe 3 2nd rounders since we have 0 firsts.
I fully expect that even if Garland wants a trade, he and his camp aren’t dumb enough to press the issue right now. With the current market and his perceived value, the way forward if you do want a trade is to go out and have a bounce-back start to the season. It’s also possible that he was one of the players that was done with JB. If he likes the new coach it’s a lot easier to stick around.
There’s also just not a lot of landing spots right now. Orlando got kcp, San Antonio got cp3, and New Orleans got Murray
KCP is no Garland. He fulfills a very different role and the two should compliment each other
It complicates the trade salary wise though. I don’t think Orlando could just absorb garland in a deal for Suggs
DG would be about to find out how low his stock is rn
I doubt he cares what his value is if he doesn't want to be here anymore
Agreed. If anything his stock being lower would be better for him. The team trading for him would have to give up less to get him therefor the team he goes to will either be better currently or give up less future assets. If it’s true that he was tired of JB it could explain why he wasn’t performing as well as he can
DG ain't goin anywhere. How many times have you read about those couch GMs saying Allen was getting traded? He's still a Cavalier. There wasn't any truth to those articles
And bitches counting his money will willfully ignore he’s making less than Maxey but more than IQs money - deal is now pretty clearly market
Maxey deal is wild
This guy gets it.. Too many want to believe people because they posted something on the web but never take the time to see what the players have said. DM said he was Happy in Cleveland but was only going to sign a 3 year contract as a bet on himself. DG never said he wanted to leave but did say he is discouraged by the way the system was set up. Allen will he is a tough one being he doesn't really do social media, but never was one person able to back up their argument with anything close to being from Allen's mouth. These young bucks know they may be young but understand together they have the talent to become the next GS warriors. Yes they are that talented..
It’s more that too many people don’t read what is being said and run with misplaced understanding. The articles, for the most part have been speculative in stating cavs may be exploring x, had discussions about x, or x player may request a trade. But a large number of fans take that as a statement of truth. For instance, did the cavs probably have some early discussions about garland? Yes. Did Garlands camp likely consider what a trade could look like? Yes. But neither of those mean they are pushing for a trade or want a trade like many think.
He ain't going nowhere because no team wants his contract without receiving first round picks. See Zach Levine
Awful comparison
Nope. Both are highly overpaid with mediocre advanced stats
Laughable usage of "advanced" stats. Next you're gonna start spouting off about PER like its 2009 lmao
Buddy was in the trenches yesterday claiming he had a PhD in statistics and that we need to stop playing losing players like Garland and start playing winning players like Damian Jones more (2x NBA champion btw)
Ha dude definitely thinks he could build a championship roster just based on stat lines from basketball-reference
Provide the stats
Garland is actually a team player unlike Lavine
92.3 the fan yesterday was saying Mobley needs to be the best player on the team for the Cavs. Dustin Fox said that isn't happening and I couldn't agree with him more. I don't think it needs to happen either.
I think he should be second. He should get more touches in the post and the chance to play make. Too often he got heavily involved in the first half only to be completely iced out the rest of the game.
Kenny seems to agree, he said in his intro press conference he wants to increase Mobley's usage
Yeah, I’m hopeful. If memory serves he also started Lopez towards a floor-spreading 5. So with any luck he can help develop more of a consistent shot out of Mobley.
Your memory is correct. Lopez went from averaging 0.2 three point attempts per game the season before Kenny to 5.2 per game in his first and only year with him as coach
That was before we traded for Mitchell, not after. You couldn't expect a guy like Garland with his inability to every be a quality defender due to his size to be the best player.
I can get behind that!
This only works if Don is willing to pass to him. Am I crazy or did he constantly look off Mobley last year?
Mobley's ball security is worse than Allen's. it's frustrating for Don the same way Rudy's bumblefucking around used to be. Darius is much better with Evan and is a better passer.
i don't know what that means. if all of the core 4 are stars in their roles it will be enough. there's shooting, creation and defense (and mobley and allen are fine to guard wings fwiw)
Others were making the claim that only way for Cavs to be better this year is if Mobley becomes the best player on the team.
i don't know what "best player" means for Mobley, who is good at a lot of stuff. leading scorer? rebounder? blocks? 20/11/5 with DPOY?
Yeah he can be the best player and not the leading scorer. If they mean best offensive player, that’s just not happening anytime soon.
I mean l, what’s going to make him considered the best player. Seems very vague. I don’t think he needs to be best player, but a 3 point shot would open up this offense and take it to the next level. He already has solid playmaking at top of the paint so adding a pick and pop as well as pulling him further from the rim will open up the paint a lot more when Allen is in.
uh who is guarding the guards lol
We’ve had a top 3 league defense for like 75% of the time since Don&DG have been together it’ll be fine lol
yeah, DG is weirdly fine on-ball against PGs he respects (in particular he played Maxey really tough last year but got smoked by Tre Mann) and Mitchell is fine guarding any SG. having two rim protectors in back helps too.
hehe when have any championship teams had two sub 6’3 guards lol. you people are too attached to this core 4 and have brain worms
I was gonna give a legit response until I realized you actually typed “hehe”
detroit
Mobley needs to step up no matter who else is on the team. Its like how KAT had to adjust when Rudy arrived
He should be
He liked Dons instagram post about “not fucking leaving”. So I figure he’s on board. And he should be. Brand new system, much faster pace which plays so much more into his style of play. Him and Kenny have been chatting it up. Only way I’m trading DG is if it’s for Lauri back. But given that Murray return, that’s probably no where near enough for Danny “Rob you blind” Ainge.
JA is the one who’d get traded
Pls no
I think Atkinson is gonna get Darius and spider to complement each other well. I think Mitchell is gonna play off ball more and Darius will be primary ball handler. It's gonna open up more lanes for the twin towers to operate
Am I crazy to think a swap for Garland / Suggs makes both teams fit better? Obviously the Magic would have to give us more
It's not a crazy basis for a trade. The question is how much more would Orlando give us to make it even
They aren’t trading suggs
Probably not. And we probably aren't trading DG right now. Still think it's a pretty rational basis for a trade
Darius has a $40-45m contract until 2028. His stats are mediocre (below average TS and awful BPM/VORP) and he is a huge defensive liability. We would have to give Orlando more for taking on that horrible contract. Suggs still has his rookie contract.
Awful last year, when his face was broken. Do the 2 prior years not count?
His prior 2 years still doesn't justify this horrible contract. His contract was based on potential. The staff thought he would become an All NBA player
A rookie max extension does not require expectations of All NBA. If that is what you are expecting that is your own fault for being unrealistic
Yes it does. They are paying Scottie Barnes on the expectation that he will elevate his game to all NBA level. All NBA players are being paid similar contracts
OG Anunoby is making slightly more than DG on his new contract. His career accolades are....1 2nd team all defense, that's it. I think you need to get a little better understanding of current NBA salaries
OG's contract is a huge overpay like their trade for Mikal. Come back in 5 years
When do overpays stop being overpays and are just pays?
Suggs is in the last year of his rookie contract, he is getting a fat extension this summer himself Darius has a career .560 TS% compared to a league average of .570. Think about that - league average, not for his position. That means that it includes rim running 5s and players like Okoro who only shoot wide open 3s and dunks. DG is an efficient scorer by pretty much any metric BPM and VORP are kinda weak, but if we are going by that... Career BPM: DG is -0.3, Suggs is -1.4 Career VORP: DG is 4.3, Suggs is 0.7 You didn't even mention WS/48, where DG is .076 and Suggs is .047
Suggs first two years were awful but his last year was much better. Compare their advanced stats from last year. Suggs was the better player. A .076 WS/48 is bottom tier and hardly justifies a $45 million contract. Suggs had a much better WS/48 last year at .112. DG had a .067 which ranked 147th in the NBA
Ah so you are just going to cherry pick some basketball-reference "advanced stats" for Suggs' best year and a down year for DG, nice. How about the previous 2 seasons when DG crushed Suggs last year? [https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/](https://apanalytics.shinyapps.io/DARKO/) Above is the best advanced metric system that is publicly available. Check DG and Suggs and get back to me
As I've told you, Suggs was one of the worst NBA players his first 2 years. He was still learning the system. He got much better last year. We are comparing the players they are now.
Well, if you knew anything about stats the better comparison is between the two players at similar points in heir careers. Try looking at your advanced stats comparing them for their 3rd year only
We are comparing the players they are right now and their current trade value
Lol my man...you are basing trade values by comparing the ONLY year Suggs has been healthy to an injury ravaged year for DG. Does that really make sense? Fortunately, most NBA FOs are not nearly as short sighted as the general fandom. They consider the body of work, not just the most recent work, especially for a player who is 24. Remember this time last year when fools on this sub said JA had negative trade value based on the Knicks series? You're doing the same shit now with DG
I wonder how Suggs would do getting his face broken twice in a year and having his jaw wired where he couldn’t eat and loses a ton of weight in the middle of the season. Do you think he would still be able to average his 12.6 pts and 2.7 assts a game? Garland averaged 18pts and 6.5 pts on 45% shooting with multiple major injuries. People are so forgetful that Garland is one year removed from being talked about as being one of the best young PGs in the league and one of the best passers, facilitators, and handles in the league. He was also a 40% 3pt shooter until this year. He averaged 22 and 8 over 2 years on 46% shooting averaging the same amount of steals as Suggs. He has one injury riddled year and people want to dump him for scraps. Not that Jalen Suggs is scraps, but no one can seriously consider this a true upgrade over the Garland we have seen play for the Cavs. Comparing Suggs best year with Garlands worst, when it’s still debatable how much better of a year Suggs had, shows how good Garland is. I know what I’ve seen, and Ill trust the two years prior to this when he was an all star level player.
Defense hasn't been an issue with this team, so why trade a 18/6 player for a 12/3 player on similar efficiency?
DG doesn't play defense and can't rebound. Mobley is forced to defend the perimeter. It leaves us vulnerable to offensive rebounds.
The Chase Down podcast just did an episode proving the last 2 years our defense did not suffer with Garland and Mitchell on the floor together
Awful Coaching did an analysis of DG's defense and he was a huge liability
Awful Coaching really lives up to the name, his analysis is absolutely terrible. I know people find him funny, but he's just doing an extended comedy bit not actual analysis.
Darius is way more talented and has more potential than Suggs
Not defensively though.
According to advanced metrics, Suggs is the better player.
Not at all. Advanced metrics also don't consider usage
Lol. Yes they do.
Please explain how advanced metrics consider usage rate. It's like you never heard the fact that advanced metrics tend to decrease as usage goes up.
Embiid's advanced metrics are bad because he has the highest usage in the NBA? Donovan has worst advanced metrics than DG? Lol buddy
What the fuck are you talking about? I said an individual player's advanced metrics typically decrease as their usage increases. That doesn't anywhere suggest high usage means bad advanced stats. This has been proven over and over. In your half-thought out scenario, that would be equate to Embiid's advanced stats being better if his usage decreased which most likely would happen. That doesn't mean that's better for the team or the player, but would typically equate to better looks, less fatigue, and less minutes.
What individual metrics typically decrease as their usage increases? Be specific and I'll do the analysis for you Why does DG have awful advanced metrics with high usage but other players like Haliburton and SGA don't?
Literally almost every stat. PER, Offensive and Defensive Rating, A/TO, TS%. "While it's not always true, for most players as their usage increases their efficiency will decrease. It's just difficult to create efficient shots — that's why the best offensive players in the NBA are those that can create these efficient shots even with a high usage." https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/guide/player_offensive_overview
Incorrect
According to the advanced metrics for one year where Garland struggled through injury the entire time? Did you know he has actually played other seasons? Seasons where he absolutely fucking smoked Suggs in all advanced metrics?
Suggs isn't what the Cavs need. They need a real SF. That is their #1 need.
Fine DG for Wagner
I fucking hate Wagner, but that would be a much better trade for us than Suggs
Actually we would have to give them more. DG's contract is very bad. Suggs is still on his rookie contract. We would have to attach some picks, maybe 3 2nd rounders since we have 0 firsts.