He should be the backup 100%. Where is the contingency plan the last two years to maximize every year we have Donovan from Altman? (We didnāt know he would resign until recently)
I respect the take. We def need a capable wing. Iām so sick of trick or treat Levert being our backup offense when the guards arenāt creating.
I would still keep Okoro at 12 million though. Heās still very young and a solid defender with overall upside. Altman seems fine at his job. Letās go Cavs.
I think Okoro can take over the starting 2 spot if we end up moving Garland for a wing if he continues to develop his shot and his confidence. This offseason he hopefully continues to improve and gains some confidence in his shot
4 top-60 players, a team that's hosted playoff series over back to back seasons is good! I'd say the burden of proof needs to fall on you beyond "he hasn't brought in an elite wing". He's done a B/B+ job since LeBron left and you think firing him is going to automatically bring in a better GM?
Right? Sure, the team isn't where the fanbase ultimately wants to be yet and the roster still needs adjustments until we are true contenders. But idk how people are not happy with the trajectory of the team under Altman when you consider where we were just a few years ago. There are so many examples of failed re-builds out there that building a team from dogwater to fringe-contenders with upside for more is a hell of an achievement
Won't comment on the DUI thing, if you want him gone on moral grounds that's your call, but Cavs fans calling for his job beyond that blow my mind. The point of a rebuild is getting as much talent as possible and worrying about fit later. In the six years since LeBron left, the team has imported or developed 4 top-60 players, with good role players around them. For an NBA rebuild, that is good. Not great, but good. Anyone who says otherwise straight up does not pay attention to the rest of the league. I beg people to pay attention to other rebuilds, historically or currently. Especially in this era of flattened lottery odds, it's never been harder to become a good team, and the Cavs are just that -- a good team. Look at Detroit, Charlotte or Washington as examples of how rebuilds can never really get off the ground.
To extend an olive branch, we are now at the time where we need to worry about fit, especially after the Donovan extension. The next 12 months will be telling. But team building extends far beyond "does a team have a good 3", and it's really basic for that to be the only criteria point people pay attention to.
Altmanās grand vision focused on using effective guard play while running 2 big men in a fairly unique play. JB was not a good coach and there is more than enough evidence, however it should say something about the level of desperation that Okoro went from 29 minutes in game 1 to 12 minutes in game 5. This is with Mitchell being injured. I also think thereās the added aspect of not actually bringing effective competition to push Okoro.Ā
I would argue that he made (mostly) the best available moves he could have with the assets available and the lineup we see is more a product of who they could import versus some sort of ideal fit. The entire league covets big playmaking wings lol. This isn't some secret recipe that a bunch of redditors found out.
Alternatively, what moves do you think he could have made differently? Sexton was a bit of a whiff relative to some other players on the board, but Gilbert tipped the scale there. DG was the right pick. Okoro, there were good players picked after him that I'd currently prefer but it was a bad draft and he's going to get multiple NBA contracts. I am confident history will look back on Mobley as the right pick.
On top of that he got Jarrett Allen for nothing and Lauri Markennan for nothing, which became Donovan Mitchell. You could argue he sold low on Lauri but that's still a net gain of two very real assets.
So, again -- what should he have done differently? Where is this magical wing that you covet? There are probably some creative answers out there but nothing obvious and considering how many successes he's had... you just don't have a good argument IMO
Since 2019 Altman and JB have produced no players outside of the lottery that have had a discernible impact for the Cavaliers. Is it not fair for me to question, A, if JB was having issues with Donovan and the team didnāt like how stuff was being run why he wasnāt let go one year ago? Heās the one that made the JB hire. If the one thing we can highlight is that Altman has not been effective in the draft, with the implementation of the aprons, whatās to say the state of the Cavs wonāt get worse with his track record of making picks outside the lottery (Tyson isnāt a true long wing archetype but Iām optimistic)
I honestly can't follow your points, but you are not debating your side well and are moving the goalposts a ton lol
Seems like you'll just never like this team with Altman there, and you'll be like so many other fans just looking to twist any bit of news into something that fits your agenda. There is a lot to like about this team and I hope you eventually find a way to enjoy it
Does a reality not exist for you that they run this back, Okoro shoots sub 25% from 3 in the playoffs, Dean Wade is injured again so weāre forced to use Niang for heavy minutes, and most concerning of all, Garland plays similar to last season and his trade value goes down even more with the contract heās on. This goes without saying but they still could make moves so itās not done and dusted but itās frankly dishonest that you wonāt be just as upset as me if they lose in the first or second round again. If this team struggles the first half of the year Atkinson will get all of the flack when Altman should be getting most of the criticism. I donāt think Iāve moved any goalposts. He was excellent his first 2 years and has not shown to reinforce those moves effectively.Ā
Seems like a lot of assumptions about him from you. Altman has done a very poor job building a roster profile that is actually capable of being legit contenders in the modern NBA. How does one as a GM neglect the wing position so badly for so many years in a row? I donāt think itās too much to ask to expect Koby Altman to get a starting caliber wing player after this many years. Okoro is an absolutely terrible offensive player 25% from 3 in the playoffs on basically all open catch and shoot attempts and he doesnāt rebound at all so itās not him.
the team that won the championship last year had four top picks and another lottery pick in the first six spots in the rotation.Ā
We have had one pick above 5 in four years of rebuilding. Ā
Whatās your alternative plan?
We donāt have any other options that are realistically better than Okoro/Wade/Strus at the 3. We donāt have assets or cap to sign someone unless weāre willing to trade one of our core 4.
Whatās the plan then?
Letās say we trade DG for a wing. Then the whiners in this thread will be like āwhoās our starting PG, how can Koby possibly be ignoring PG itās one of our most important positionsā and we have this exact same conversation
Let me put this in a simpler way. I am not telling Altman to trade for Bridges or someone of that caliber. We have known since Garlandās breakout season, the development of a 3 and D wing player is imperative for the future success of the team. With losing Lauri in the Mitchell trade the idea of running 2 small guards (although Mitchell has a massive wingspan that makes him an effective defender) reinforced the need for a 3 and D wing. Until this draft there was not an adequate developmental 3 and D player. I donāt understand how this doesnāt show a clear lack of vision from Altman. Let me flip the question even. Whatās the best case scenario with the squad as is for the upcoming year knowing we have Donovan for roughly 3 years?
Do you think elite 3&D wings just grow on trees? KCP (whoās good but not elite) just signed for $66/3. OG signed for $212/5. How do we get that much cap space open? Strus signed for $64/4. Is he the perfect option? No. Is he elite? No. But weāre shopping in discount bin and youāre complaining that we donāt have a high level 3&D guy.
Okoro is our best shot, imo, heās already an elite defender and his is improving.
Wade is a good defender and decent shooter, but has availability challenges.
Strus is a better shooter but not great defensively.
We have projects with Travers, Emoni, and Jaylon.
We havenāt solved the gap but itās hard to get 5 high level starters. Boston is the only team to do it and they won a championship as a result. Plus, KP has availability issues and theyāre unlikely to keep this team together beyond this year due to the cap. Give Altman $20M+ or picks to play with and Iām sure heāll get somewhere.
Okoro shot worse when given wide open 3 point opportunities across the playoffs this year than last with a larger sample size. Wade legit has never been healthy for the playoffs so until he proves it I can't see it. Strus is solid but again u put Okoro in its basically 4 v 5 in terms of the spacing being afforded bc the guy guarding Okoro doesn't care. He's just making sure he doesn't blow by him. To say "we have projects" when Emoni was the only one on the team in the past 3 years that actually has played NBA minutes. Denver with Strawther, Pacers with Jarace, Wolves with Leonard Williams and now Terrance Shannon. These dudes are projects bc they're expected to be given NBA minutes. Who have the Cavs taken other than this year, that we can say, ya I can see him getting minutes and contributing this year. Over the past 2 years there's been band-aid after band-aid.
We havenāt had first round picks my guy plus Travers in Australia getting actual minutes is better than being on the bench in Cleveland.
We also brought in Niang. Basically every move weāve made in the past 24 months has been trying to get a serviceable wing (Strus, Niang, Bates, Jaylon, Morris, etc.) we just donāt have the assets for a flawless 3&D guy.
Because theyāre really expensive
This was the interesting thing to me: Our GM probably (maybe) thought Mobley and Allen were so big so athletic so elite on both sides of the ball that they make up for an undersized, and frankly shaky SF position on our roster. But that hasn't really been the case.
My other issue is that I understand their team building logic but their hands are tied on getting a better SF. I think we were all hoping Okoro would've been an elite shooter and having Strus or Wade off the bench is like praying someone gets into a rhythm. It's just not an ideal situation and you're absolutely right about shipping out one of our core players.
Playing small wouldn't be an issue if our bigs stretched the floor really well, but Mobley seems afraid to put up shots a lot of time so it's just not working super well.
And lastly, I wish Emoni wasn't a selfish player because if he had a breakout year, our roster would be lethal imo. He has the physical presence to be a great wing defender and shooter but he's selfish and overall shaky which really sucks. He's more likely to end up out of the league than our starting SF :/
Right, everyone criticizing Altman for this team not having an ideal starting caliber SF needs to tell us exactly what signing/draft/trade they would have made to get that type of player.
Hoping Okoro improves could be the best option right now, finding the player youāre hoping for is really hard with limited assets. In theory, Isaac could become that player if he improves on offense. Our biggest need is a big wing who can play the 3/4, but literally every team is looking for that kind of player. DFS and Cam Johnson would be huge but the nets asking price isnāt cheap.
also Okoro at 12-14 mil isnāt that much in todays environment. Also the fact that Okoro hasnāt signed a deal with us is pretty telling. Hes gonna test the market because the Cavs probably havenāt made an offer that he wants yet
If a team, for the sake of argument, thinks along similar lines and offers him like 15 mil, would that move the needle towards being affordable for the future to not worth itĀ
Iād probably match 15 mil per year. We have no means of replacing him. Itās not like we can turn around and give that money to someone better. Hopefully we can find a trade with him and/or Caris to bring in a better option at the wing.
Just keep taking swings. Okoro May develop further, or Bates, or Travers or another vet min guy, or Tyson.
The wings available are not better than OG Mikal the Jays or PG or Franz, so why bother giving up real talent to lose a matchup by slightly less than
Isnāt it Altmanās job to be ātaking swingsā at least once or twice in the past 3 years? Has Okoro proven to provide any aspect of his play that can reach a āhigh playoff caliberā level? The only thing worse than making a mistake is doubling down on the mistake.Ā
The first player we signed in FA last year was a SF and the second was a SF/PF. Ā We drafted a developmental wing both last year and this year and have prospects overseas.
We have explored all options. Ā But if the price for good wings is the OG or Mikal price, Koby is doing all he canĀ for a premium position that is hugely overvalued.
Diop was pick 39 I believe. They couldāve taken a college ready big man or a 3 and D prototype wing player with that pick but instead we have a guy that is injured and canāt even play in the summer league. Funny enough the best prototype 3 and D player than was available in that draft at that point was Vince Williams on Memphis. Thatās revisionist and not fair tho. Other decisions such as Windler with an injury history over Keldeon Johnson are more troubling.Ā
More hits than misses. Ā Even high picks like Sexton at 8 or Okoro at 5 have crazy variance. Ā Koby generally hits at least the average outcome each time (Ice isnāt Kevin Love or Boogie but heās not Thomas Robinson either)
Bad GMs miss most of their picks regardless of position, average GMs make good moves here and there when presented but either make terrible FA signings or awful at drafting, and good GMs have a gameplan for the future along with supplementing depth when trying to climb the NBA mountain. Kolby was a better than average GM that, since the Donovan trade, has been trending consistently downwards.
Hitting big on big moves is a big deal. Ā And everything post Mitchell is like one off-season.
Ā Ā After that, I liked Strus and Niang last year as well as TT / Mook as a waiver guy but Jerome and Jones were rough. Mixed but the KA pick is gonna tell the taleĀ
Iām not necessarily criticizing him for not making a move right now;Ā rather I do not understand the complacency for the past 3 years in addressing the position. But to answer the question, RoCo, Gordon Hayward, or even Dario Saric present interesting opportunities for the Cavs imo because they present a much more viable offensive option that helps increasing the spacing for Mitchell and Garland to operate.Ā
I agree thereās been some complacency but itās also just very expensive to land a good big wing right now. Of the three you suggest one is absolutely washed and one is a center, neither of those are better options at wing. Itās just a really, really hard position to fill when you have two premium guards and solid depth.
I agree with your take, itās very strange that Koby seems to not care about one of the more important positions in the NBA. He keeps drafting/signing 6ā4-6ā6 guys and making them wings, I donāt understand it. It may be intentional, light years ahead type thing. Heās objectively a bad drafter too. Credit to him for the short rebuild though.
Iām semi optimistic Koby has something up his sleeve to right the ship. Woj posted after the extension that a significant reason Mitchell committed was that he believed in Kobys vision to *keep building* a contender. That itās a partnership, he will have a seat at the table. Surely Mitchell knows the need for a wing
With Okoro you keep him, unless you can sort a sign and trade for a better wing. There isnāt many realistic options outside of Miles Bridges which would come with its own problems.
Iām not saying Hayward is washed when he barely played meaningful minutes for that stacked OKC squad nor did they have the time to adequately fit him into the team. RoCo I think thatās fair. Fournier basically had a bad season when he moved to the Knicks but I think heās much better when heās in a role that fits him. Worth a shot with a MLE.Ā
I think MLE is our best opportunity however Iām in the minority that we should let Okoro and realign where to put the money. A high level rebounding 3 of an efficient shooter that spreads the floor out would be ideal. Gordon Hayward, RoCo, Burks all would present interesting opportunities.
Hayward is washed. RoCo is 33 and declining - he averaged 4.4 points last season. Burks is probably more expensive than the MLE. And, really, none of them are an upgrade on Okoro.
It's kind of funny how absolutely clueless people are on this situation, actually thinking that Wade is our best player at the position too.
Okoro is VERY clearly our best player at the SF position. The reason for any of his offensive issues was the complete lack of offensive system under JB. What Okoro does well on offense is cutting, setting screens, and transition offense. Basically using his athleticism and strength.
He can generally make open 3s at a decent pace, but JB's offense consisted of ISO ball and had him standing in the corner like a statue. Playing to the exact opposite of his strengths. The reason his numbers dipped in the playoffs is because ISO ball is extremely simple to defend and you can lock in during the playoffs with a plan.
Only Mitchell consistently performed, and that's because he's simply too talented to contain. He was not getting open shots, he had to beat defenders and make FAR too many contested shots.
Under Atkinson, we're going to be shifting to a motion based offense. Which obviously shifts far more to what Okoro is good at. People really shouldn't just decide he is a bad offense player when the coach wasn't running a real NBA offense and wasn't even using him in the offense. Unless you were an ISO player or a lob threat, you weren't doing shit on offense under JB.
Another criticism I have along the lines of JB not playing Okoro to his strengths: not starting him.
Okoro is wasted as a bench player.
Playing him off the bench means heās often never guarding the opponentās best player. It also means heās less effective on offense because what he can provide on offense relies on transition opportunities and punishing scrambling defenses, which donāt happen much with the bench squad.
Strus is the better player right now overall. Play him the starterās minutes. But Okoro shouldnāt be playing a single minute when the opposing teamās best guard/wing is on the bench.
Pretty much exactly this. Strus is obviously the better overall offensive player, but he's also clearly the 5th option in the starting lineup.
Coming off of the bench would make his offense more potent, especially as a duo with LeVert. It's the same as LeVert really, it didn't work out with him starting because it's simply a waste.
Bro with all due respect are we watching the same team? The 3 pt attempts that Okoro took in the playoffs, that the opposing teamās gameplan was to create, were wide open 3 pt attempts that okoro had a couple seconds to prepare and take multiple times. His 3 pt playoff percentage and minutes went down because he was UNPLAYABLE due to his lack of 3 pt offense. When Atkinson tries to spread the floor where do u think the target of who the opponents want to shoot the ball will be? If he doesnāt make those shots Atkinson will pull him just like JB pulled him in the Boston series. Iām not even knocking okoro heās still young and I would like him back on a reasonable contract but he should NOT be given the responsibility and pressure of anything more than a bench player at best at present time. You canāt say youāre all in on Donovan then be complacent at the 3 as long as they were. Itās genuinely astounding the faith this sub has in okoro to be a starter in playoff level competition with the data we have available to us.Ā
I think you're just underestimating how much an actually offensive-minded coach changes a team and actually being able to utilize a player's strengths.
There's a reason why we've ALWAYS been a better team when Okoro's on the floor. It was the way it was 2 years ago when he was the one starting over any of the other guys, even LeVert or Wade who people try to claim is better. The same as it was this year when Mobley and/or Garland were out with injuries.
It's not that we're better without Mobley & Garland, it's that Okoro starting fills an important role that simply isn't filled when Strus starts with our core 4.
We gave okoro the qualifying offer. His restricted free agency hitting this year is a gift to the Cavs. there isnāt a lot of cap space available throughout the league this off-season. There will be a lot more next year. Heās unlikely to find an overpay deal elsewhere this year. So he can either take the qualifying offer for a single year and hope he gets more next year or signs up for security on a longer term team friendly deal. Hopefully, he chooses the latter and then develops into an even better player and we have, a solid player on a team friendly contract
There is a "small market" component to Altman's performance that should at least be mildly factored in. Small market teams, in order to compete for a championship, basically have to perfectly crush every single move. And even then, there's a luck component.
The Denver Nuggets obviously got into the title chase because of Jokic (and Murray), but they won a title because all their ancillary moves worked out perfectly. But now, due to financial concerns that probably wouldn't exist in NY or LA, it certainly seems that, despite having the best player in the league, their championship window is now closed.
Or the Indiana Pacers, who despite making it deep into the playoffs, just put a lid on their championship aspirations by giving all that money to an aging Siakam. Unless Mathurin makes a massive leap, they're already finished as a title contender.
But my general point is that Altman hasn't been perfect, but he hasn't been terrible, which leads to a situation where he's probably good enough to build playoff teams, but will probably never be enough to win a championship.
Despite some great maneuvers (for example, getting Allen for nothing), some good maneuvers (drafting Garland despite already having Sexton), as well as some totally average maneuvers (everyone had Mobley at #3, and seemingly everyone had Okoro as the best wing in the COVID draft), Altman's misses (Levert, failing to predict Markannen's leap) hit way harder, due to small markets being less forgiving.
I think itās revisionist to blame Altman on trading Lauri and I donāt think Levert is a miss at all. He has straight up won some games through some of his impactful offense. My main gripe from Altman comes from the lack of understanding regarding drafting the past 2-3 years. The nuggets and pacers recognize that they are smaller market teams so when they look for players they focus on high production players in college in the second and long, athletic wings in the first round. Whether it be Newton, Nembhard, Strawther, Sheppard, etc. I can clearly discern that the nuggets draft for size/length and the pacers are drafting for intellect, speed, and effective players who run motion offense. Since 2019 Altmanās non lottery picks have done basically nothing except for Isiah Mobley here and there. 4 second round picks and 1 late first round pick and not one have been able to play any meaningful minutes.Ā
Just wanted to hash out some points I'm trying to make that may not have come off as I intended.
I do not want to let go of Okoro right now.
The emphasis of this discussion is to wonder, A, what was Altman's plan to address the 3 position for the long term KNOWING THAT VERY LIKELY Garland, Donovan, and Mobley would all be getting the max. The legitimate cheapest and most impactful way would be the NBA DRAFT. We are going into our 3rd year and its the first wing player Altman has taken in the first round I believe since Windler. There would be no frustration if he took actual shot at players that were impactful in college and weren't projects to the point where you were wondering if they will make it to the NBA or not.
Point B is mainly that i think that some of you guys genuinely do not comprehend the fact that there are dudes that are made for big moments and play well in the face of pressure. Amazing players raise their game in the playoffs, decent players maintain about the same as they are in the regular season, and players who struggle in the big moments perform worse. Okoro seems to be of the latter at this point in his career. If he puts up similar numbers to last postseason next year everyone will have their pitchforks out for Altman and Okoro. Why is Altman putting that much strain on Okoro having to perform to a level we simply have not seen that he is ready for.
All in all if you want to tell me that Altman made good moves and he should still be here fine. But from all that I've seen over the past 2-3 years he seems to have no concrete plan on how to build the team in an efficient and effective matter.
We've repeatedly neglected the highly coveted forward archetype because it has allowed us to get better value at other positions.Ā
Okoro is our only good point of attack defender and he's a really, really good one at that.
Iām not convinced Altman has real plans besides āthis guys good at something Iāll draft/sign/trade for them.ā Iām still not confident he can built teams that make sense
Agree with you on Altman, I've seen no evidence that he is above replacement level as a GM. Seems like we would have been better off with Brock Aller. And the drunk driving thing is unforgivable to me.
With regard to Okoro, he is a productive player who is improving, so it is hard to let players like that go. The fit is not great, though. IMO, he is probably the 8th most important player on the team and you can't pay those guys more than the MLE when you have multiple max players.
You keep the young guy that keeps improving who you can keep under team control, simple as that. Want a SF? I agree we need one, trade anything other than Okoro(or the core 4 obviously since thatās the way the FO wants to go for now, probably spare Strus too). Iād much rather get whoever we can from Levert+whatever than possibly get somebody slightly better for Okoro+whatever
It would be cool but I donāt think itās fair to assume much regarding his impact. Just need to keep letting him grind and hope he becomes Middleton.
Ahhh yes of course.Ā Because nothing happened, that means koby Altman had to have literally done zero work.Ā He just turned his phone off and went to Myrtle Beach.Ā Ā The truth is we have no way of knowing what goes on behind the scenes.Ā We have no idea what discussions have been had or not had.Ā I bet he is trying.Ā I don't believe he saw the roster last year and said, "yup, we're pretty much set".Ā Ā
The wing role is the most coveted position in basketball right now, and you have to overpay, sometimes a LOT, to acquire a known commodity.Ā And we're not exactly flush with assets to be able to overpay yet.Ā Koby needs to be very sure that if he's payingĀ the last of our picks and cap space that it's a person who will take the team over the top.Ā There won't be as much room for 2nd chances.Ā
No one is asking for a game changing play to get a viable 3. In fact, Iām suggesting it is not that difficult to bring in a younger version of Morris with what will be left in the FA market. My problem is why there wasnāt a focus on drafting and developing a SF 3 years ago.Ā
I believe there has been a focus.Ā In 2020 we drafted Okoro.Ā He's a little short, but if he had developed a 3pt shot more than he has he'd be the starting 3 and we'd be calling him the new Danny Green.Ā Looking at that draft the only real alternative I think I would call a miss is vassell, although his defense is still terrible.Ā McDaniels and bane were drafted 28 and 30, and both traded on draft night, so safe to say nobody really thought they'd be as good as they are (especially bane).Ā I don't necessarily fault the FO on this one.
21 was mobley.Ā This was also the young forward heavy class with Barnes, kuminga, frantz Wagner, Jalen Johnson, trey Murphy all drafted.Ā If you want to argue we'd be better off swapping mobley for one of them then that might be a case, but you might get heated pushback outside of Scottie.Ā Ā
22 was agbaji who admittedly didn't work out, and the only currently good forwards I recognize after him are Braun, and maybe tari Eason?Ā But that pick was required to get Donovan, so it's kind of moot.
23 pick went to Utah.
Don't forget 3 years ago we were only a few years removed from LeBron leaving, recovering future assets, and a play in team rolling out sexland, so we were still in "best player available" mode.Ā And this is only our 2nd offseason with Donovan on the roster.
It has been an issue for years. Off course the Cavs need to find a solution for this. Theres some names available and there are teams that probably want to get younger that would be open for trades.
Okoro has been doing his best, he has improved every season but in a way Cavs have hindered his development, he is basically asked to defend and stay in a corner, yet we fans want him to become Klay.
I actually never thought of it that way. I hope okoro develops into a more complete player bc I think heās so good in transition. But I think giving him a more impactful bench role would do him and the team better in the long run. This shouldāve been the plan 2 years ago if Altman had a concrete vision that the other elite GMs always maintain.
no, we keep Okoro, he just should be a backup SG š just get a proper SF
He should be the backup 100%. Where is the contingency plan the last two years to maximize every year we have Donovan from Altman? (We didnāt know he would resign until recently)
I respect the take. We def need a capable wing. Iām so sick of trick or treat Levert being our backup offense when the guards arenāt creating. I would still keep Okoro at 12 million though. Heās still very young and a solid defender with overall upside. Altman seems fine at his job. Letās go Cavs.
I think Okoro can take over the starting 2 spot if we end up moving Garland for a wing if he continues to develop his shot and his confidence. This offseason he hopefully continues to improve and gains some confidence in his shot
LMAO!!!!
What's your basis for Altman seeming to be fine?
4 top-60 players, a team that's hosted playoff series over back to back seasons is good! I'd say the burden of proof needs to fall on you beyond "he hasn't brought in an elite wing". He's done a B/B+ job since LeBron left and you think firing him is going to automatically bring in a better GM?
Right? Sure, the team isn't where the fanbase ultimately wants to be yet and the roster still needs adjustments until we are true contenders. But idk how people are not happy with the trajectory of the team under Altman when you consider where we were just a few years ago. There are so many examples of failed re-builds out there that building a team from dogwater to fringe-contenders with upside for more is a hell of an achievement
Team was terrible 4 years ago
Won't comment on the DUI thing, if you want him gone on moral grounds that's your call, but Cavs fans calling for his job beyond that blow my mind. The point of a rebuild is getting as much talent as possible and worrying about fit later. In the six years since LeBron left, the team has imported or developed 4 top-60 players, with good role players around them. For an NBA rebuild, that is good. Not great, but good. Anyone who says otherwise straight up does not pay attention to the rest of the league. I beg people to pay attention to other rebuilds, historically or currently. Especially in this era of flattened lottery odds, it's never been harder to become a good team, and the Cavs are just that -- a good team. Look at Detroit, Charlotte or Washington as examples of how rebuilds can never really get off the ground. To extend an olive branch, we are now at the time where we need to worry about fit, especially after the Donovan extension. The next 12 months will be telling. But team building extends far beyond "does a team have a good 3", and it's really basic for that to be the only criteria point people pay attention to.
Altmanās grand vision focused on using effective guard play while running 2 big men in a fairly unique play. JB was not a good coach and there is more than enough evidence, however it should say something about the level of desperation that Okoro went from 29 minutes in game 1 to 12 minutes in game 5. This is with Mitchell being injured. I also think thereās the added aspect of not actually bringing effective competition to push Okoro.Ā
I would argue that he made (mostly) the best available moves he could have with the assets available and the lineup we see is more a product of who they could import versus some sort of ideal fit. The entire league covets big playmaking wings lol. This isn't some secret recipe that a bunch of redditors found out. Alternatively, what moves do you think he could have made differently? Sexton was a bit of a whiff relative to some other players on the board, but Gilbert tipped the scale there. DG was the right pick. Okoro, there were good players picked after him that I'd currently prefer but it was a bad draft and he's going to get multiple NBA contracts. I am confident history will look back on Mobley as the right pick. On top of that he got Jarrett Allen for nothing and Lauri Markennan for nothing, which became Donovan Mitchell. You could argue he sold low on Lauri but that's still a net gain of two very real assets. So, again -- what should he have done differently? Where is this magical wing that you covet? There are probably some creative answers out there but nothing obvious and considering how many successes he's had... you just don't have a good argument IMO
Since 2019 Altman and JB have produced no players outside of the lottery that have had a discernible impact for the Cavaliers. Is it not fair for me to question, A, if JB was having issues with Donovan and the team didnāt like how stuff was being run why he wasnāt let go one year ago? Heās the one that made the JB hire. If the one thing we can highlight is that Altman has not been effective in the draft, with the implementation of the aprons, whatās to say the state of the Cavs wonāt get worse with his track record of making picks outside the lottery (Tyson isnāt a true long wing archetype but Iām optimistic)
I honestly can't follow your points, but you are not debating your side well and are moving the goalposts a ton lol Seems like you'll just never like this team with Altman there, and you'll be like so many other fans just looking to twist any bit of news into something that fits your agenda. There is a lot to like about this team and I hope you eventually find a way to enjoy it
Does a reality not exist for you that they run this back, Okoro shoots sub 25% from 3 in the playoffs, Dean Wade is injured again so weāre forced to use Niang for heavy minutes, and most concerning of all, Garland plays similar to last season and his trade value goes down even more with the contract heās on. This goes without saying but they still could make moves so itās not done and dusted but itās frankly dishonest that you wonāt be just as upset as me if they lose in the first or second round again. If this team struggles the first half of the year Atkinson will get all of the flack when Altman should be getting most of the criticism. I donāt think Iāve moved any goalposts. He was excellent his first 2 years and has not shown to reinforce those moves effectively.Ā
Seems like a lot of assumptions about him from you. Altman has done a very poor job building a roster profile that is actually capable of being legit contenders in the modern NBA. How does one as a GM neglect the wing position so badly for so many years in a row? I donāt think itās too much to ask to expect Koby Altman to get a starting caliber wing player after this many years. Okoro is an absolutely terrible offensive player 25% from 3 in the playoffs on basically all open catch and shoot attempts and he doesnāt rebound at all so itās not him.
the team that won the championship last year had four top picks and another lottery pick in the first six spots in the rotation.Ā We have had one pick above 5 in four years of rebuilding. Ā
Strus is a starting caliber SF. Ā
Whatās your alternative plan? We donāt have any other options that are realistically better than Okoro/Wade/Strus at the 3. We donāt have assets or cap to sign someone unless weāre willing to trade one of our core 4.
God forbid we do!
Whatās the plan then? Letās say we trade DG for a wing. Then the whiners in this thread will be like āwhoās our starting PG, how can Koby possibly be ignoring PG itās one of our most important positionsā and we have this exact same conversation
Mitchell is our PG
Let me put this in a simpler way. I am not telling Altman to trade for Bridges or someone of that caliber. We have known since Garlandās breakout season, the development of a 3 and D wing player is imperative for the future success of the team. With losing Lauri in the Mitchell trade the idea of running 2 small guards (although Mitchell has a massive wingspan that makes him an effective defender) reinforced the need for a 3 and D wing. Until this draft there was not an adequate developmental 3 and D player. I donāt understand how this doesnāt show a clear lack of vision from Altman. Let me flip the question even. Whatās the best case scenario with the squad as is for the upcoming year knowing we have Donovan for roughly 3 years?
Do you think elite 3&D wings just grow on trees? KCP (whoās good but not elite) just signed for $66/3. OG signed for $212/5. How do we get that much cap space open? Strus signed for $64/4. Is he the perfect option? No. Is he elite? No. But weāre shopping in discount bin and youāre complaining that we donāt have a high level 3&D guy. Okoro is our best shot, imo, heās already an elite defender and his is improving. Wade is a good defender and decent shooter, but has availability challenges. Strus is a better shooter but not great defensively. We have projects with Travers, Emoni, and Jaylon. We havenāt solved the gap but itās hard to get 5 high level starters. Boston is the only team to do it and they won a championship as a result. Plus, KP has availability issues and theyāre unlikely to keep this team together beyond this year due to the cap. Give Altman $20M+ or picks to play with and Iām sure heāll get somewhere.
Okoro shot worse when given wide open 3 point opportunities across the playoffs this year than last with a larger sample size. Wade legit has never been healthy for the playoffs so until he proves it I can't see it. Strus is solid but again u put Okoro in its basically 4 v 5 in terms of the spacing being afforded bc the guy guarding Okoro doesn't care. He's just making sure he doesn't blow by him. To say "we have projects" when Emoni was the only one on the team in the past 3 years that actually has played NBA minutes. Denver with Strawther, Pacers with Jarace, Wolves with Leonard Williams and now Terrance Shannon. These dudes are projects bc they're expected to be given NBA minutes. Who have the Cavs taken other than this year, that we can say, ya I can see him getting minutes and contributing this year. Over the past 2 years there's been band-aid after band-aid.
We havenāt had first round picks my guy plus Travers in Australia getting actual minutes is better than being on the bench in Cleveland. We also brought in Niang. Basically every move weāve made in the past 24 months has been trying to get a serviceable wing (Strus, Niang, Bates, Jaylon, Morris, etc.) we just donāt have the assets for a flawless 3&D guy. Because theyāre really expensive
This was the interesting thing to me: Our GM probably (maybe) thought Mobley and Allen were so big so athletic so elite on both sides of the ball that they make up for an undersized, and frankly shaky SF position on our roster. But that hasn't really been the case. My other issue is that I understand their team building logic but their hands are tied on getting a better SF. I think we were all hoping Okoro would've been an elite shooter and having Strus or Wade off the bench is like praying someone gets into a rhythm. It's just not an ideal situation and you're absolutely right about shipping out one of our core players. Playing small wouldn't be an issue if our bigs stretched the floor really well, but Mobley seems afraid to put up shots a lot of time so it's just not working super well. And lastly, I wish Emoni wasn't a selfish player because if he had a breakout year, our roster would be lethal imo. He has the physical presence to be a great wing defender and shooter but he's selfish and overall shaky which really sucks. He's more likely to end up out of the league than our starting SF :/
Right, everyone criticizing Altman for this team not having an ideal starting caliber SF needs to tell us exactly what signing/draft/trade they would have made to get that type of player.
Dude please paragraph this, my eyes are bleeding
Sorry, I hope this a little better
Hoping Okoro improves could be the best option right now, finding the player youāre hoping for is really hard with limited assets. In theory, Isaac could become that player if he improves on offense. Our biggest need is a big wing who can play the 3/4, but literally every team is looking for that kind of player. DFS and Cam Johnson would be huge but the nets asking price isnāt cheap. also Okoro at 12-14 mil isnāt that much in todays environment. Also the fact that Okoro hasnāt signed a deal with us is pretty telling. Hes gonna test the market because the Cavs probably havenāt made an offer that he wants yet
If a team, for the sake of argument, thinks along similar lines and offers him like 15 mil, would that move the needle towards being affordable for the future to not worth itĀ
Iād probably match 15 mil per year. We have no means of replacing him. Itās not like we can turn around and give that money to someone better. Hopefully we can find a trade with him and/or Caris to bring in a better option at the wing.
Just keep taking swings. Okoro May develop further, or Bates, or Travers or another vet min guy, or Tyson. The wings available are not better than OG Mikal the Jays or PG or Franz, so why bother giving up real talent to lose a matchup by slightly less than
Isnāt it Altmanās job to be ātaking swingsā at least once or twice in the past 3 years? Has Okoro proven to provide any aspect of his play that can reach a āhigh playoff caliberā level? The only thing worse than making a mistake is doubling down on the mistake.Ā
The first player we signed in FA last year was a SF and the second was a SF/PF. Ā We drafted a developmental wing both last year and this year and have prospects overseas. We have explored all options. Ā But if the price for good wings is the OG or Mikal price, Koby is doing all he canĀ for a premium position that is hugely overvalued.
Diop was pick 39 I believe. They couldāve taken a college ready big man or a 3 and D prototype wing player with that pick but instead we have a guy that is injured and canāt even play in the summer league. Funny enough the best prototype 3 and D player than was available in that draft at that point was Vince Williams on Memphis. Thatās revisionist and not fair tho. Other decisions such as Windler with an injury history over Keldeon Johnson are more troubling.Ā
More hits than misses. Ā Even high picks like Sexton at 8 or Okoro at 5 have crazy variance. Ā Koby generally hits at least the average outcome each time (Ice isnāt Kevin Love or Boogie but heās not Thomas Robinson either)
Bad GMs miss most of their picks regardless of position, average GMs make good moves here and there when presented but either make terrible FA signings or awful at drafting, and good GMs have a gameplan for the future along with supplementing depth when trying to climb the NBA mountain. Kolby was a better than average GM that, since the Donovan trade, has been trending consistently downwards.
Hitting big on big moves is a big deal. Ā And everything post Mitchell is like one off-season. Ā Ā After that, I liked Strus and Niang last year as well as TT / Mook as a waiver guy but Jerome and Jones were rough. Mixed but the KA pick is gonna tell the taleĀ
Okay, what small forward? You canāt just say we need one, you gotta say who.
Iām not necessarily criticizing him for not making a move right now;Ā rather I do not understand the complacency for the past 3 years in addressing the position. But to answer the question, RoCo, Gordon Hayward, or even Dario Saric present interesting opportunities for the Cavs imo because they present a much more viable offensive option that helps increasing the spacing for Mitchell and Garland to operate.Ā
I agree thereās been some complacency but itās also just very expensive to land a good big wing right now. Of the three you suggest one is absolutely washed and one is a center, neither of those are better options at wing. Itās just a really, really hard position to fill when you have two premium guards and solid depth.
I agree with your take, itās very strange that Koby seems to not care about one of the more important positions in the NBA. He keeps drafting/signing 6ā4-6ā6 guys and making them wings, I donāt understand it. It may be intentional, light years ahead type thing. Heās objectively a bad drafter too. Credit to him for the short rebuild though. Iām semi optimistic Koby has something up his sleeve to right the ship. Woj posted after the extension that a significant reason Mitchell committed was that he believed in Kobys vision to *keep building* a contender. That itās a partnership, he will have a seat at the table. Surely Mitchell knows the need for a wing With Okoro you keep him, unless you can sort a sign and trade for a better wing. There isnāt many realistic options outside of Miles Bridges which would come with its own problems.
I think itāll be easier to understand Okoroās lack of impact if the MLE Cavs signing is an actual 3 (Gordon Hayward, Fournier, RoCo, etc.)
How is Fournier any more of a 3 than Levert, Strus or Okoro. He plays smaller than all Of those guys. Roco isnāt very good and Hayward looks washed.
Iām not saying Hayward is washed when he barely played meaningful minutes for that stacked OKC squad nor did they have the time to adequately fit him into the team. RoCo I think thatās fair. Fournier basically had a bad season when he moved to the Knicks but I think heās much better when heās in a role that fits him. Worth a shot with a MLE.Ā
Honest questionā¦ how do you figure we upgrade the position? We donāt have many assets to trade, we donāt have a lot of cap spaceā¦
I think MLE is our best opportunity however Iām in the minority that we should let Okoro and realign where to put the money. A high level rebounding 3 of an efficient shooter that spreads the floor out would be ideal. Gordon Hayward, RoCo, Burks all would present interesting opportunities.
Hayward is washed. RoCo is 33 and declining - he averaged 4.4 points last season. Burks is probably more expensive than the MLE. And, really, none of them are an upgrade on Okoro.
It's kind of funny how absolutely clueless people are on this situation, actually thinking that Wade is our best player at the position too. Okoro is VERY clearly our best player at the SF position. The reason for any of his offensive issues was the complete lack of offensive system under JB. What Okoro does well on offense is cutting, setting screens, and transition offense. Basically using his athleticism and strength. He can generally make open 3s at a decent pace, but JB's offense consisted of ISO ball and had him standing in the corner like a statue. Playing to the exact opposite of his strengths. The reason his numbers dipped in the playoffs is because ISO ball is extremely simple to defend and you can lock in during the playoffs with a plan. Only Mitchell consistently performed, and that's because he's simply too talented to contain. He was not getting open shots, he had to beat defenders and make FAR too many contested shots. Under Atkinson, we're going to be shifting to a motion based offense. Which obviously shifts far more to what Okoro is good at. People really shouldn't just decide he is a bad offense player when the coach wasn't running a real NBA offense and wasn't even using him in the offense. Unless you were an ISO player or a lob threat, you weren't doing shit on offense under JB.
Another criticism I have along the lines of JB not playing Okoro to his strengths: not starting him. Okoro is wasted as a bench player. Playing him off the bench means heās often never guarding the opponentās best player. It also means heās less effective on offense because what he can provide on offense relies on transition opportunities and punishing scrambling defenses, which donāt happen much with the bench squad. Strus is the better player right now overall. Play him the starterās minutes. But Okoro shouldnāt be playing a single minute when the opposing teamās best guard/wing is on the bench.
Pretty much exactly this. Strus is obviously the better overall offensive player, but he's also clearly the 5th option in the starting lineup. Coming off of the bench would make his offense more potent, especially as a duo with LeVert. It's the same as LeVert really, it didn't work out with him starting because it's simply a waste.
Bro with all due respect are we watching the same team? The 3 pt attempts that Okoro took in the playoffs, that the opposing teamās gameplan was to create, were wide open 3 pt attempts that okoro had a couple seconds to prepare and take multiple times. His 3 pt playoff percentage and minutes went down because he was UNPLAYABLE due to his lack of 3 pt offense. When Atkinson tries to spread the floor where do u think the target of who the opponents want to shoot the ball will be? If he doesnāt make those shots Atkinson will pull him just like JB pulled him in the Boston series. Iām not even knocking okoro heās still young and I would like him back on a reasonable contract but he should NOT be given the responsibility and pressure of anything more than a bench player at best at present time. You canāt say youāre all in on Donovan then be complacent at the 3 as long as they were. Itās genuinely astounding the faith this sub has in okoro to be a starter in playoff level competition with the data we have available to us.Ā
I think you're just underestimating how much an actually offensive-minded coach changes a team and actually being able to utilize a player's strengths. There's a reason why we've ALWAYS been a better team when Okoro's on the floor. It was the way it was 2 years ago when he was the one starting over any of the other guys, even LeVert or Wade who people try to claim is better. The same as it was this year when Mobley and/or Garland were out with injuries. It's not that we're better without Mobley & Garland, it's that Okoro starting fills an important role that simply isn't filled when Strus starts with our core 4.
We gave okoro the qualifying offer. His restricted free agency hitting this year is a gift to the Cavs. there isnāt a lot of cap space available throughout the league this off-season. There will be a lot more next year. Heās unlikely to find an overpay deal elsewhere this year. So he can either take the qualifying offer for a single year and hope he gets more next year or signs up for security on a longer term team friendly deal. Hopefully, he chooses the latter and then develops into an even better player and we have, a solid player on a team friendly contract
I agree, go cavs
There is a "small market" component to Altman's performance that should at least be mildly factored in. Small market teams, in order to compete for a championship, basically have to perfectly crush every single move. And even then, there's a luck component. The Denver Nuggets obviously got into the title chase because of Jokic (and Murray), but they won a title because all their ancillary moves worked out perfectly. But now, due to financial concerns that probably wouldn't exist in NY or LA, it certainly seems that, despite having the best player in the league, their championship window is now closed. Or the Indiana Pacers, who despite making it deep into the playoffs, just put a lid on their championship aspirations by giving all that money to an aging Siakam. Unless Mathurin makes a massive leap, they're already finished as a title contender. But my general point is that Altman hasn't been perfect, but he hasn't been terrible, which leads to a situation where he's probably good enough to build playoff teams, but will probably never be enough to win a championship. Despite some great maneuvers (for example, getting Allen for nothing), some good maneuvers (drafting Garland despite already having Sexton), as well as some totally average maneuvers (everyone had Mobley at #3, and seemingly everyone had Okoro as the best wing in the COVID draft), Altman's misses (Levert, failing to predict Markannen's leap) hit way harder, due to small markets being less forgiving.
I think itās revisionist to blame Altman on trading Lauri and I donāt think Levert is a miss at all. He has straight up won some games through some of his impactful offense. My main gripe from Altman comes from the lack of understanding regarding drafting the past 2-3 years. The nuggets and pacers recognize that they are smaller market teams so when they look for players they focus on high production players in college in the second and long, athletic wings in the first round. Whether it be Newton, Nembhard, Strawther, Sheppard, etc. I can clearly discern that the nuggets draft for size/length and the pacers are drafting for intellect, speed, and effective players who run motion offense. Since 2019 Altmanās non lottery picks have done basically nothing except for Isiah Mobley here and there. 4 second round picks and 1 late first round pick and not one have been able to play any meaningful minutes.Ā
Just wanted to hash out some points I'm trying to make that may not have come off as I intended. I do not want to let go of Okoro right now. The emphasis of this discussion is to wonder, A, what was Altman's plan to address the 3 position for the long term KNOWING THAT VERY LIKELY Garland, Donovan, and Mobley would all be getting the max. The legitimate cheapest and most impactful way would be the NBA DRAFT. We are going into our 3rd year and its the first wing player Altman has taken in the first round I believe since Windler. There would be no frustration if he took actual shot at players that were impactful in college and weren't projects to the point where you were wondering if they will make it to the NBA or not. Point B is mainly that i think that some of you guys genuinely do not comprehend the fact that there are dudes that are made for big moments and play well in the face of pressure. Amazing players raise their game in the playoffs, decent players maintain about the same as they are in the regular season, and players who struggle in the big moments perform worse. Okoro seems to be of the latter at this point in his career. If he puts up similar numbers to last postseason next year everyone will have their pitchforks out for Altman and Okoro. Why is Altman putting that much strain on Okoro having to perform to a level we simply have not seen that he is ready for. All in all if you want to tell me that Altman made good moves and he should still be here fine. But from all that I've seen over the past 2-3 years he seems to have no concrete plan on how to build the team in an efficient and effective matter.
We've repeatedly neglected the highly coveted forward archetype because it has allowed us to get better value at other positions.Ā Okoro is our only good point of attack defender and he's a really, really good one at that.
Iām not convinced Altman has real plans besides āthis guys good at something Iāll draft/sign/trade for them.ā Iām still not confident he can built teams that make sense
Agree with you on Altman, I've seen no evidence that he is above replacement level as a GM. Seems like we would have been better off with Brock Aller. And the drunk driving thing is unforgivable to me. With regard to Okoro, he is a productive player who is improving, so it is hard to let players like that go. The fit is not great, though. IMO, he is probably the 8th most important player on the team and you can't pay those guys more than the MLE when you have multiple max players.
You keep the young guy that keeps improving who you can keep under team control, simple as that. Want a SF? I agree we need one, trade anything other than Okoro(or the core 4 obviously since thatās the way the FO wants to go for now, probably spare Strus too). Iād much rather get whoever we can from Levert+whatever than possibly get somebody slightly better for Okoro+whatever
Wouldnt it be funny if Emoni Bates turned out to be awesome. His comp coming out was Brandon Ingram anyways
It would be cool but I donāt think itās fair to assume much regarding his impact. Just need to keep letting him grind and hope he becomes Middleton.
Ahhh yes of course.Ā Because nothing happened, that means koby Altman had to have literally done zero work.Ā He just turned his phone off and went to Myrtle Beach.Ā Ā The truth is we have no way of knowing what goes on behind the scenes.Ā We have no idea what discussions have been had or not had.Ā I bet he is trying.Ā I don't believe he saw the roster last year and said, "yup, we're pretty much set".Ā Ā The wing role is the most coveted position in basketball right now, and you have to overpay, sometimes a LOT, to acquire a known commodity.Ā And we're not exactly flush with assets to be able to overpay yet.Ā Koby needs to be very sure that if he's payingĀ the last of our picks and cap space that it's a person who will take the team over the top.Ā There won't be as much room for 2nd chances.Ā
No one is asking for a game changing play to get a viable 3. In fact, Iām suggesting it is not that difficult to bring in a younger version of Morris with what will be left in the FA market. My problem is why there wasnāt a focus on drafting and developing a SF 3 years ago.Ā
I believe there has been a focus.Ā In 2020 we drafted Okoro.Ā He's a little short, but if he had developed a 3pt shot more than he has he'd be the starting 3 and we'd be calling him the new Danny Green.Ā Looking at that draft the only real alternative I think I would call a miss is vassell, although his defense is still terrible.Ā McDaniels and bane were drafted 28 and 30, and both traded on draft night, so safe to say nobody really thought they'd be as good as they are (especially bane).Ā I don't necessarily fault the FO on this one. 21 was mobley.Ā This was also the young forward heavy class with Barnes, kuminga, frantz Wagner, Jalen Johnson, trey Murphy all drafted.Ā If you want to argue we'd be better off swapping mobley for one of them then that might be a case, but you might get heated pushback outside of Scottie.Ā Ā 22 was agbaji who admittedly didn't work out, and the only currently good forwards I recognize after him are Braun, and maybe tari Eason?Ā But that pick was required to get Donovan, so it's kind of moot. 23 pick went to Utah. Don't forget 3 years ago we were only a few years removed from LeBron leaving, recovering future assets, and a play in team rolling out sexland, so we were still in "best player available" mode.Ā And this is only our 2nd offseason with Donovan on the roster.
Donāt go bringing logic here! Why didnāt Koby draft Kawhi????
It has been an issue for years. Off course the Cavs need to find a solution for this. Theres some names available and there are teams that probably want to get younger that would be open for trades. Okoro has been doing his best, he has improved every season but in a way Cavs have hindered his development, he is basically asked to defend and stay in a corner, yet we fans want him to become Klay.
I actually never thought of it that way. I hope okoro develops into a more complete player bc I think heās so good in transition. But I think giving him a more impactful bench role would do him and the team better in the long run. This shouldāve been the plan 2 years ago if Altman had a concrete vision that the other elite GMs always maintain.