Here’s a non-paywall article that is well worth the read covering the exact same story I expect
https://www.propublica.org/article/3m-forever-chemicals-pfas-pfos-inside-story
Humanity is so screwed
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The world must choose the most ambitious PFAS phase-out path and a social fund for PFAS victims, clean-up and restoration should be supported by 3M & co.
The article basically summarizes at the end that this will not happen. Regulations have allowed 3M to keep making and using them. And the cost to clean up even the drinkable/useable water for humans exceed the market cap of the entire company.
The article is depressing and shows that if we let capitalism tule the world we end up with consumerism and complete impunity for big companies which only care about appearances and sees pollution and injustice as something to hide. If they don't want to see the planet's problems then it's up to everyone else to change things and fight for a world with greater solidarity and concern for everyone's health. We have a very conservative government in Flanders (Belgium) that hid 3M's misdeeds on water for many years because they were only interested in money. It's a disgrace and yet these monsters remain in power.
I mean...I'm ready to start throwing some pitchforks and torches parties. We, as the working class of the world, need to stick together and start holding the actual people who own and run these companies responsible.
I'm all for guillotines, but I wonder if there is a way to mobilize power against these companies, since none of the people responsible will ever see any consequences from the police or government. There's no effective way to boycott them. You could potentially occupy their headquarters, but then there's all that tear gas and billy clubbing.
A mass boycott of companies that clearly demonstrate unethical or worse behavior is a tool we all have as a collective. As long as these companies need customers and employees, as a group we can do something to influence a positive change we want to see.
We’re 22 days into the boycott of Canada’s biggest grocery chain, and it’s so hard to know whether it’s having any effect. Anecdotally, their foot traffic is way down, but the only way to know if it’s working will be if everyone sticks it out until there’s a quarterly earnings call in 3 months.
You will never, ever even find the elites that cause these issues. They own dozens of luxury estates with private on premise security. If there’s even a whisper of mob action the Feds will let them know you’re on the way and they’ll be heading to a yacht in the Mediterranean.
Seeking revenge is a fool’s errand.
The only real solution is the high impossible way: you have to convince millions of Americans to do the impossible and demand political action, probably through the ballot box.
…
Consider that the people mentioned here, who covered up the extend of PFAS contamination in the 70s…. They’re probably dead of old age. This has been going on for DECADES.
The problems don’t get fixed because extremely wealthy people are responsible.
Who do they produce them for, I wonder...who outsourced their production specifically to China and caused this in the first place?
Blaming a single country when we all live on a single planet is asinine and not productive in any way.
I remember how the "scotch-guard" scandal blew over so fast. I remember a chemical unique to it was found in almost every living organism. That was over 20 years ago.
People went several millions of years without destroying the habitability of the planet. A few hundred years of Anglo white supremacist manifest destiny and technological ‘advancement’ all spurred on by the concept of individualism and free markets undid us.
Absolutely. This is all evil white people's fault. Everything is because of them. It's also white people who are FORCING China and India to increase their pollution output. When I was in Bangkok a few years ago, all people talked about was how white people were destroying and polluting their country. Also, name 1 thing that white people have invented that was a positive for humankind. Just 1. White people need to be more like central Africans if we are going to fix this mess.
Capitalism is the system that provides the most incentives for ethical outcomes.
It's not apologia, it's reality.
Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad.
>Capitalism is the system that provides the most incentives for ethical outcomes.
How can anyone possibly think this? Capitalism is concerned solely with wealth accumulation. It requires constant growth which in turn requires the exploitation of the land and people.
I’m sorry what? That’s some propaganda, capitalism is unethical by its very nature: persistent growth for market-value rather than use-value without concern for ecology or worker well being and creating inequality through aggregation of wealth, for example, is very unethical. A human-centric system rather than a market-centric system would by definition be ethical, capitalism is not that. In a scant 500 years, it has practically destroyed the planet, maybe go read up on this stuff.
I pass up plenty of chances, trust me.
You, on the other hand, seem kind of wound up about stuff I’m posting on Reddit. This is *DEEP* into the thread lol.
The level of cognitive dissonance to say capitalism creates ethical outcomes while it’s proactively driving extinction is an astounding level of stupidity I can’t fathom.
I’ve lost patience for capitalism apologists.
Capitalism is evil. Period. It’s destroying our planet. That’s what we talk about here in /r/Climate. There’s no scenario where you get to accumulate and keep stuff far beyond the riches of feudal lords without destroying the plant.
A livable earth or capitalism. Those are *literally* your choices. I’d say “pick one”, but clearly society already has.
If the alternative is an unlivable planet, I’d be fine trying just about anything else. Socialism, communism, mercantilism, the barter system… subsistence farming. A livable planet is my priority.
Of course, an unstable climate because of the ravages of capitalist greed make subsistence farming impossible. Turns out you need a stable climate to grow food.
The barter system is not an economic system. It’s just trading goods directly rather than through currency - objectively, currency is just indirect barter. If with $1 I can buy 10 eggs and 5 apples, I can therefore buy 5 apples with 10 eggs. Money is just an exchange rate for goods. You can still have private capital through a barter system, as idiotic as that sounds.
Mercantilism is just unserious - I rather not go back to 16th century colonialism and protectionism lmao
As a Canadian who lives with enabled oligopolies and a heavily regulated market... No, socialism isn't the way either.
You say you hate capitalism, but you honestly just mean you hate greed, to which is impossible to get rid of unfortunately.
As a fellow Canadian who knows what socialism is. No, we do not have socialism. Having government regulation does not make a country socialist. Canada is strongly capitalist. We are only socialist compared to countries like the US. But the number of companies in Canada which have been awarded monopolies... That is not socialism lol. I suggest you actually learn what socialism is.
Yeah Canada isn't full socialism at all. We wouldn't allow these massive oligopolies to own everything if we were. We're in an Oligarchy even worse than the US in many cases. Yes we ha e socialized Healthcare and such but even that is there to support corporations in many cases. The food bank literally subsidized the fact many companies won't pay a livable wage.
Socialism: "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole"
Communities don't own anything in Canada. We're not a socialist society here in Canada. It's capitalism with a few social services. That isn't the same thing.
You literally believe canada is socialist? I have to ask but can you actually define capitalism and socialism for me? I wanna see what assumptions you're operating under.
Socialism hands down. Out of all the options we have come up with Socialism is by far the best. It's magnitudes better than being capitalist centric for sure.
100%, and lets face it, in most of the western world we're not even capitalist anymore, its shifted further to a corpratist system. We need a system that puts people first, not companies.
This is the natural and inevitable outcome of a capitalist society (corporatist). It doesn’t matter what you call it, individualist free market theory is a failure of unfathomable proportions that is going to kill us all if we don’t shift course.
Has socialism ever actually worked? It seems to me corruption just goes to the government instead of being scattered through business'. Then you wind up with people trading power in the government and hiding it from the people through different forms of tyranny.
Socialism has never been done. Not true socialism anyway. The closest any country has come is being Capitalist with strong social programs. Socialism is when all production and distribution is owned by the people. Meaning everyone benefits equally from the work they contribute to society. It is through the incentives created by capitalism or removed by communism that you get the type of corruption you're talking about. Not saying socialism is fool proof, but it specifically aims to remove the incentives which lead to massive wealth inequality and corruption of power.
No. Under communism the state owns the means of production and distribution. Ideally the state is then supposed to divide the resources and profits equally among the people. The people don't own anything under communism. It's very different from socialism.
All of what you wrote here is false. Allow me to break it down.
Originally, socialism and communism were interchangeable terms for an economic system where the working/proletariat class control the means of production, and the owner/capitalist/bourgeois class no longer exists. It is a stateless, classless and moneyless societal structure.
However, after Vladimir Lenin expanded on the works of Karl Marx, then successfully began a transition to communism, the usage of the terms has changed. Socialism now refers to the transitionary period between capitalism and a fully stateless, classless, moneyless society (communism).
During the transitionary phase (socialism) the state is used to suppress the power and influence of the bourgeoisie and advance the interests of the proletariat, until the utility of the state eventually withers away, transitioning to the final phase of socialism, which is communism. I'll write it out again since decades of red scare propaganda has thoroughly distorted the definition of Communism: **Communism is a socioeconomic system that has successfully erased the State, class structures, and all forms of currency. If any of those three things exist, it's not communism.**
Basically, a Marxist-Leninist (most socialists/communists) pushes for communism through the transitionary phase of socialism. There are many names one could add to that hyphenated chain like you're collecting pokemon, but the core of communist theory is *identifying socioeconomic contradictions and solving them*.
I'll end with an example contradiction of capitalism: *The bourgeoisie want maximal labor for minimal pay, while the proletariat want minimal labor for maximal pay*. As you can see, these interests can't be met simultaneously, hence the term contradiction.
That is incorrect plz read Marx again (if you ever did, doubt). Communism = there would be no state at all - total dissolution of it, money, and class hierarchy in conjunction with shared ownership of the means of production. You literally have it backwards; socialism is the transitory phase between capitalism and communism where the state controls the means of production as it works towards passing democratic ownership on to the people.
Which, according to capitalists, is the only true and desirable form of capitalism.
Also, see for exemple Galbraith, it never really existed, and yet here we are.
No, it provides freedom to the individuals who have the most money. The more money you have, the more freedom you have. The less money you have, the less freedom you have, unless you have nothing at all. Then you have all the freedom to starve and fight for shelter.
Some of it is true however capitalism and liberalism followed other type of government were all you are saying was also true. Have you read about Europe in the 1800 or earlier? What about China in the 1950? Capitalism and liberalism is not perfect, but by it nature of competition it allow a division in power that not previous type of government did.
i am guessing you are american. Freedom from your own government is important and before capitalism thing were a lot worse since power was hold in fewer hands. Maybe you dont know, but before liberalism you had other type of government and they were a bit more brutal in oppression.
I thought *you* were American lol. It’s usually us who conflate economic systems with political systems.
Capitalism is an economic system, not a system of governance. “Freedom” is determined by how the people are governed, not by an economic system.
I wonder if this stuff is going to get exponentially worse (if its even possible) if GOP is able to eliminate the EPA and other agencies that give the thinnest veneer of protection.
The problem that this article discusses is a feature, not a bug. This issue has been going on since the 80s and longer. Through multiple administrations in the government. The story it tells is true across all industries within capitalism.
Company CEOs don’t wanna see the boat get rocked (loss of shareholder value) so they obfuscate & Gaslight. The scientist who knows what’s up and would be the obvious whistleblower is just raising her kids. Paying the mortgage. And not talking about it. The only time that government gets involved is through an agency that they appoint with members that often have bias & travel through a revolving door between government & industry.
It’s not an insidious plan to poison the earth. It’s just each person doing their best to survive & feed their family. And keep their millions & billions.
~ The EPA does nothing.
PFAs concentrations in the blood serum of Americans is down about 85% over the last 25 years. What bothers me about these articles is they imply that the problem is new and worsening when it is neither.
That was great reporting! And that was only 3M! Can you imagine how many other companies compartmentalizing evil secrets for greed? Insane. It’s also sad how defeating it was for everyone involved. So sad. Standing up and doing the right thing is hard, but it needs to be done!!
Wait until you learn about Dupont. 3M wouldn't exist without Dupont. Dupont is who first created these forever chemicals. 3M jumped into the game after Dupont opened the flood gates. I believe Dupont was fined something like $13 million for poisoning the blood stream of literally every organism on earth. The only place the chemicals created by Dupont cannot be found is in the blood taken from WW1 soldiers before Dupont had first created these chemicals.
Edit: It was $16.5 million.
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/15/politics/dupont-to-pay-165-million-for-unreported-risks.html
Edit 2: Here is a much longer article on what all Dupont did. 3M was how they essentially rebranded to keep producing the same thing they got in trouble for.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/magazine/the-lawyer-who-became-duponts-worst-nightmare.html
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10237242/
DuPont and 3M were complicit together. However 3M was just the primary manufacturer of the chemicals. Dupont is who invented C8 and its subsequent replacements.
Unfortunately, this is far, far beyond our purchasing choices at this point. The chemicals are in all of us. Everywhere. Have been for decades. 3M are criminals.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7926449/
Above link: *Endocrine Disruptor Potential of Short- and Long-Chain Perfluoroalkyl Substances (PFASs)—A Synthesis of Current Knowledge with Proposal of Molecular Mechanism*
This stuff sickens me, emotionally. We know the “forever chemicals” (PFAS compounds) are hormone disruptors. We also know that the general population shows a pretty significant divergence from historical averages of many hormones.
3M and DuPont have been denying the problem and covering up their own research for decades. If they admit the problem, if they even correct the problem, they would be admitting liability, and hence a MASSIVE civil lawsuit. So they just… keep making the problem worse. And they’ve been successful for decades.
ExxonMobile did the same thing for many decades with it’s research on atmospheric greenhouse gas accumulation. ExxonMobile was the first to have scientific proof of global warming / GHG accumulation… and their executive staff covered it up for decades while they cashed out their stock options.
Horrific.
I heard in the 1960s they cranked the factories has hard as they could and made as many products as they could. Most things were very affordable. What I can't stand is the emissions standards of that time were putrid, disgusting. Certainly not as bad as the 1930s but still very bad. Watch a working-class American mom with her 3 kids stroll out of a department store with 3 loaded shopping carts and put all the goods in her station wagon. Now a freaking banana costs $1 and the city of Phoenix is going to be a death trap because of the hot weather. How about an emergency Climate Summit, President Biden.
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Capitalism and greed don’t care about anything beyond profit. Why humanity cannot understand this, baffles me. We are screwed. It’s heart breaking that the world is dying so a few billionaires can live large.
Oh yeah they did. But they mathed it out a long long time ago. They knew that no one would ever be any any position to ever really make them face consequences that would amount to anything other than a half a fraction of their bottom line. They had a decision to make. Either find a way to do what they were and still are doing without using the forever cancer chems, or just say screw it and hope that it takes so long to for them to be put on blast that no one will even care or feel strongly enough about it to do anything about it by the time it surfaces.
Wow that was a fun read about world wide contamination 
Woah 🤯 I think about the science that is funded by those looking for a specific outcome. This article speaks a bit negatively about questioning the Covid vaccine. But when we exist in this space with such misaligned incentives between economics and health, is it more crazy that someone would question the validity of what we’re told. Or that one wouldn’t question.
This article is from data collected decades ago. Even before plastic was ubiquitous in our society. There will be hundreds of thousands of other chemicals created since that have not been tested. And worse. They’ve been tested and the results are buried.
The [COVID lockdowns of 2020 temporarily lowered our rate of CO2 emissions](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18922-7/figures/1). Humanity was still a net CO2 gas emitter during that time, so we made things worse, but did so more a bit more slowly. That's why a [graph of CO2 concentrations](https://keelingcurve.ucsd.edu/) shows a continued rise.
[Stabilizing the climate means getting human greenhouse gas emissions to approximately zero](https://www.carbonbrief.org/explainer-will-global-warming-stop-as-soon-as-net-zero-emissions-are-reached). We didn't come anywhere near that during the lockdowns.
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Missed this earlier, but removed as off topic.
Here’s a non-paywall article that is well worth the read covering the exact same story I expect https://www.propublica.org/article/3m-forever-chemicals-pfas-pfos-inside-story Humanity is so screwed
Thanks for sharing that one! Edit: you’re right- this is the exact same story, published in both the NYer and ProPublica.
You got it! Pretty heart-breaking story, huh? Crazy capitalism somehow selects for sociopaths
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I worked for them, in one of their glue factories. 🪦🪦🪦
The world must choose the most ambitious PFAS phase-out path and a social fund for PFAS victims, clean-up and restoration should be supported by 3M & co.
add dupont. this post/articles may be about 3m, but "dupont" is just as interchangeable with "3m"
Yes they are one in the same for all intents and purposes
Don’t forget DuPont spin-off Chemours
So we're going to do absolutely nothing, understood.
The article basically summarizes at the end that this will not happen. Regulations have allowed 3M to keep making and using them. And the cost to clean up even the drinkable/useable water for humans exceed the market cap of the entire company.
The article is depressing and shows that if we let capitalism tule the world we end up with consumerism and complete impunity for big companies which only care about appearances and sees pollution and injustice as something to hide. If they don't want to see the planet's problems then it's up to everyone else to change things and fight for a world with greater solidarity and concern for everyone's health. We have a very conservative government in Flanders (Belgium) that hid 3M's misdeeds on water for many years because they were only interested in money. It's a disgrace and yet these monsters remain in power.
lmao. I mean, just. I'm gonna have to step away for the evening... How much of this are we going to take?
I mean...I'm ready to start throwing some pitchforks and torches parties. We, as the working class of the world, need to stick together and start holding the actual people who own and run these companies responsible.
I'm all for guillotines, but I wonder if there is a way to mobilize power against these companies, since none of the people responsible will ever see any consequences from the police or government. There's no effective way to boycott them. You could potentially occupy their headquarters, but then there's all that tear gas and billy clubbing.
A mass boycott of companies that clearly demonstrate unethical or worse behavior is a tool we all have as a collective. As long as these companies need customers and employees, as a group we can do something to influence a positive change we want to see.
We’re 22 days into the boycott of Canada’s biggest grocery chain, and it’s so hard to know whether it’s having any effect. Anecdotally, their foot traffic is way down, but the only way to know if it’s working will be if everyone sticks it out until there’s a quarterly earnings call in 3 months.
It is, they've upped the # of articles talking about how wrong the people are.
You will never, ever even find the elites that cause these issues. They own dozens of luxury estates with private on premise security. If there’s even a whisper of mob action the Feds will let them know you’re on the way and they’ll be heading to a yacht in the Mediterranean. Seeking revenge is a fool’s errand. The only real solution is the high impossible way: you have to convince millions of Americans to do the impossible and demand political action, probably through the ballot box. … Consider that the people mentioned here, who covered up the extend of PFAS contamination in the 70s…. They’re probably dead of old age. This has been going on for DECADES. The problems don’t get fixed because extremely wealthy people are responsible.
Start with communist China where they produce the most of these compounds. Tell me how it goes.
Who do they produce them for, I wonder...who outsourced their production specifically to China and caused this in the first place? Blaming a single country when we all live on a single planet is asinine and not productive in any way.
They blame them because it’s easier than blaming the country you are in
China is communist? News to me, last I checked communism involves the government owning all businesses, utilities, real estate etc etc.
This was difficult to read. I, like the fire fighter who became a lab rat, have no faith in human beings. These are crimes against humanity.
I remember how the "scotch-guard" scandal blew over so fast. I remember a chemical unique to it was found in almost every living organism. That was over 20 years ago.
Capitalism is evil.
Capitalism is organized crime.
No. People are evil.
People went several millions of years without destroying the habitability of the planet. A few hundred years of Anglo white supremacist manifest destiny and technological ‘advancement’ all spurred on by the concept of individualism and free markets undid us.
Absolutely. This is all evil white people's fault. Everything is because of them. It's also white people who are FORCING China and India to increase their pollution output. When I was in Bangkok a few years ago, all people talked about was how white people were destroying and polluting their country. Also, name 1 thing that white people have invented that was a positive for humankind. Just 1. White people need to be more like central Africans if we are going to fix this mess.
Woosh
I’ve already expressed my opinion on capitalism apologists
Capitalism is the system that provides the most incentives for ethical outcomes. It's not apologia, it's reality. Your ideas are bad and you should feel bad.
>Capitalism is the system that provides the most incentives for ethical outcomes. How can anyone possibly think this? Capitalism is concerned solely with wealth accumulation. It requires constant growth which in turn requires the exploitation of the land and people.
I’m sorry what? That’s some propaganda, capitalism is unethical by its very nature: persistent growth for market-value rather than use-value without concern for ecology or worker well being and creating inequality through aggregation of wealth, for example, is very unethical. A human-centric system rather than a market-centric system would by definition be ethical, capitalism is not that. In a scant 500 years, it has practically destroyed the planet, maybe go read up on this stuff.
lol. I’m right and I feel great. But I get it. I’m an apostate heretic to those people who make a religion out of capitalism.
except you dont feel great otherwise you wouldnt constantly whine about capitalism every chance you get
I pass up plenty of chances, trust me. You, on the other hand, seem kind of wound up about stuff I’m posting on Reddit. This is *DEEP* into the thread lol.
Ok Russian bot. We know Putin wants to drill the Arctic.
The level of cognitive dissonance to say capitalism creates ethical outcomes while it’s proactively driving extinction is an astounding level of stupidity I can’t fathom.
stockholm syndrome is real. its not stupidity if you’re a zombie
It's a bot. Same with the "all whites bad!" Post below. They do the same thing on nearly every social media to further divide people.
Capitalism is people. And it’s categorically evil
No. Soylent Green is people. Capitalism is an economic system.
That flourishes by one of the worst but necessary traits - greed. Corruption seems also more versatile achievable.
The uneducated are always the easiest for the hegemony to manipulate. I don't care about your sad insults below I pity the existence you lead.
Oh no! Not your pity. I'm crushed. If you didn't care you would not have posted. I guess it true, the uneducated are the easiest to manipulate.
Unregulated capitalism*
I’ve lost patience for capitalism apologists. Capitalism is evil. Period. It’s destroying our planet. That’s what we talk about here in /r/Climate. There’s no scenario where you get to accumulate and keep stuff far beyond the riches of feudal lords without destroying the plant. A livable earth or capitalism. Those are *literally* your choices. I’d say “pick one”, but clearly society already has.
So what economic system do you propose ?
If the alternative is an unlivable planet, I’d be fine trying just about anything else. Socialism, communism, mercantilism, the barter system… subsistence farming. A livable planet is my priority. Of course, an unstable climate because of the ravages of capitalist greed make subsistence farming impossible. Turns out you need a stable climate to grow food.
The barter system is not an economic system. It’s just trading goods directly rather than through currency - objectively, currency is just indirect barter. If with $1 I can buy 10 eggs and 5 apples, I can therefore buy 5 apples with 10 eggs. Money is just an exchange rate for goods. You can still have private capital through a barter system, as idiotic as that sounds. Mercantilism is just unserious - I rather not go back to 16th century colonialism and protectionism lmao
The free market pedant has logged on
As a Canadian who lives with enabled oligopolies and a heavily regulated market... No, socialism isn't the way either. You say you hate capitalism, but you honestly just mean you hate greed, to which is impossible to get rid of unfortunately.
As a fellow Canadian who knows what socialism is. No, we do not have socialism. Having government regulation does not make a country socialist. Canada is strongly capitalist. We are only socialist compared to countries like the US. But the number of companies in Canada which have been awarded monopolies... That is not socialism lol. I suggest you actually learn what socialism is.
Yeah Canada isn't full socialism at all. We wouldn't allow these massive oligopolies to own everything if we were. We're in an Oligarchy even worse than the US in many cases. Yes we ha e socialized Healthcare and such but even that is there to support corporations in many cases. The food bank literally subsidized the fact many companies won't pay a livable wage.
Socialism: "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole" Communities don't own anything in Canada. We're not a socialist society here in Canada. It's capitalism with a few social services. That isn't the same thing.
Ppl always telling on themselves with these comments. Not everyone is a greedy jerk like you.
You literally believe canada is socialist? I have to ask but can you actually define capitalism and socialism for me? I wanna see what assumptions you're operating under.
Socialism hands down. Out of all the options we have come up with Socialism is by far the best. It's magnitudes better than being capitalist centric for sure.
100%, and lets face it, in most of the western world we're not even capitalist anymore, its shifted further to a corpratist system. We need a system that puts people first, not companies.
This is the natural and inevitable outcome of a capitalist society (corporatist). It doesn’t matter what you call it, individualist free market theory is a failure of unfathomable proportions that is going to kill us all if we don’t shift course.
No, it’s capitalism. 100%. Their goal is to accumulate and hoard capital.
techno-feudalism allows capital accumulation too. our techno-feudal overlords even swallow the capitalists
Feudalism at best imho
Techno-feudalism to be even more granular.
Has socialism ever actually worked? It seems to me corruption just goes to the government instead of being scattered through business'. Then you wind up with people trading power in the government and hiding it from the people through different forms of tyranny.
Socialism has never been done. Not true socialism anyway. The closest any country has come is being Capitalist with strong social programs. Socialism is when all production and distribution is owned by the people. Meaning everyone benefits equally from the work they contribute to society. It is through the incentives created by capitalism or removed by communism that you get the type of corruption you're talking about. Not saying socialism is fool proof, but it specifically aims to remove the incentives which lead to massive wealth inequality and corruption of power.
That sure sounds like the economy for communism.
No. Under communism the state owns the means of production and distribution. Ideally the state is then supposed to divide the resources and profits equally among the people. The people don't own anything under communism. It's very different from socialism.
All of what you wrote here is false. Allow me to break it down. Originally, socialism and communism were interchangeable terms for an economic system where the working/proletariat class control the means of production, and the owner/capitalist/bourgeois class no longer exists. It is a stateless, classless and moneyless societal structure. However, after Vladimir Lenin expanded on the works of Karl Marx, then successfully began a transition to communism, the usage of the terms has changed. Socialism now refers to the transitionary period between capitalism and a fully stateless, classless, moneyless society (communism). During the transitionary phase (socialism) the state is used to suppress the power and influence of the bourgeoisie and advance the interests of the proletariat, until the utility of the state eventually withers away, transitioning to the final phase of socialism, which is communism. I'll write it out again since decades of red scare propaganda has thoroughly distorted the definition of Communism: **Communism is a socioeconomic system that has successfully erased the State, class structures, and all forms of currency. If any of those three things exist, it's not communism.** Basically, a Marxist-Leninist (most socialists/communists) pushes for communism through the transitionary phase of socialism. There are many names one could add to that hyphenated chain like you're collecting pokemon, but the core of communist theory is *identifying socioeconomic contradictions and solving them*. I'll end with an example contradiction of capitalism: *The bourgeoisie want maximal labor for minimal pay, while the proletariat want minimal labor for maximal pay*. As you can see, these interests can't be met simultaneously, hence the term contradiction.
That is incorrect plz read Marx again (if you ever did, doubt). Communism = there would be no state at all - total dissolution of it, money, and class hierarchy in conjunction with shared ownership of the means of production. You literally have it backwards; socialism is the transitory phase between capitalism and communism where the state controls the means of production as it works towards passing democratic ownership on to the people.
*Read 6:54 PM*
No lol
No.
Yes lol
"Unregulated capitalism" is the end goal of capitalism lol
But being unregulated means more profits!
Which, according to capitalists, is the only true and desirable form of capitalism. Also, see for exemple Galbraith, it never really existed, and yet here we are.
We need to be more like North Korea
Disingenuous comment pretending it’s binary choice between destroying the planet and North Korea. Boomers are a trip lol.
Capitalism suxxx Sent from my iPhone
Ok boomer
[Don't make us tap the sign.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5gldsuWkAEHIPk?format=jpg&name=900x900)
capitalism is the best system we manage to create for individual freedom thaugh
No, it provides freedom to the individuals who have the most money. The more money you have, the more freedom you have. The less money you have, the less freedom you have, unless you have nothing at all. Then you have all the freedom to starve and fight for shelter.
Some of it is true however capitalism and liberalism followed other type of government were all you are saying was also true. Have you read about Europe in the 1800 or earlier? What about China in the 1950? Capitalism and liberalism is not perfect, but by it nature of competition it allow a division in power that not previous type of government did.
You’re really drinking the kool aid. What about liberty? Guns? Bald eagles?
i am guessing you are american. Freedom from your own government is important and before capitalism thing were a lot worse since power was hold in fewer hands. Maybe you dont know, but before liberalism you had other type of government and they were a bit more brutal in oppression.
I thought *you* were American lol. It’s usually us who conflate economic systems with political systems. Capitalism is an economic system, not a system of governance. “Freedom” is determined by how the people are governed, not by an economic system.
I don't care about your freedoms given that you dont care about my freedom to live free of pollution
Currently these compounds are produced by Communist China while knowing its bad. Retard
China isn’t communist. It’s very much a capitalist country. Also, the Cold War ended 35 years ago boomer. We’re not scared of “communists” anymore.
I wonder if this stuff is going to get exponentially worse (if its even possible) if GOP is able to eliminate the EPA and other agencies that give the thinnest veneer of protection.
As long as you believe who you vote for will make a difference then it most certainly will get worse.
I don't understand what you are trying to say because your sentence literally doesn't make sense.
The problem that this article discusses is a feature, not a bug. This issue has been going on since the 80s and longer. Through multiple administrations in the government. The story it tells is true across all industries within capitalism. Company CEOs don’t wanna see the boat get rocked (loss of shareholder value) so they obfuscate & Gaslight. The scientist who knows what’s up and would be the obvious whistleblower is just raising her kids. Paying the mortgage. And not talking about it. The only time that government gets involved is through an agency that they appoint with members that often have bias & travel through a revolving door between government & industry. It’s not an insidious plan to poison the earth. It’s just each person doing their best to survive & feed their family. And keep their millions & billions. ~ The EPA does nothing.
Oh I see. Yeah I agree with the general sentiment.
PFAs concentrations in the blood serum of Americans is down about 85% over the last 25 years. What bothers me about these articles is they imply that the problem is new and worsening when it is neither.
Can we get a source on that? I want to believe
That was great reporting! And that was only 3M! Can you imagine how many other companies compartmentalizing evil secrets for greed? Insane. It’s also sad how defeating it was for everyone involved. So sad. Standing up and doing the right thing is hard, but it needs to be done!!
Just when we thought Monsanto was the worst....3M takes the lead.
Wait until you learn about Dupont. 3M wouldn't exist without Dupont. Dupont is who first created these forever chemicals. 3M jumped into the game after Dupont opened the flood gates. I believe Dupont was fined something like $13 million for poisoning the blood stream of literally every organism on earth. The only place the chemicals created by Dupont cannot be found is in the blood taken from WW1 soldiers before Dupont had first created these chemicals. Edit: It was $16.5 million. https://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/15/politics/dupont-to-pay-165-million-for-unreported-risks.html Edit 2: Here is a much longer article on what all Dupont did. 3M was how they essentially rebranded to keep producing the same thing they got in trouble for. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/10/magazine/the-lawyer-who-became-duponts-worst-nightmare.html
Any non-paywalled copies of those references ?
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10237242/ DuPont and 3M were complicit together. However 3M was just the primary manufacturer of the chemicals. Dupont is who invented C8 and its subsequent replacements.
They’ve known since at least the 70s thanks to the Mid Ohio Valley C8 scandal
Good documentary called [The Devil We Know](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJFbsWX4MJM) about this.
Dark waters (2019) Great doc on this. Mark Ruffalo co-prduced or something.
Does anyone have a comprehensive list of products to avoid?
Unfortunately, this is far, far beyond our purchasing choices at this point. The chemicals are in all of us. Everywhere. Have been for decades. 3M are criminals.
How do we cleanse ourselves of these built up forever chemicals from our bodies? That should be the next logical step? Right?
Anything owned by Dupont. They have a 100 year head start on 3M.
non-stick anything.
PFAS is in all our blood now
Some reading. https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.jafc.6b04683 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.3c03702 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1438463921001231 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0013935122023696 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adl1026
There's a toxicologist named Yvonne Burkart with a [helpful YouTube channel](https://youtube.com/@dryvonneburkart?si=4EeEjylpanTssBzD)
Thanks so much!
Funny thing is “alpha” types get upset if u talk about this like it’s too progressive or woke
That's because they're not even in beta version yet, let alone a full release.
This was an incredible read. Thank you so much for sharing.
As someone who has recently found out my well water is contaminated with PFAS let me tell you, it’s a real pain in the butt.
3M and don’t forget DuPont who I think is still catching lawsuits because of their Teflon coating of death…✌🏻🤙🏻
Oh ffs. Put the culprits in the same prison than the Petroleum industry execs. What do you mean, "they're not in prison"?!
And no one was shocked.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7926449/ Above link: *Endocrine Disruptor Potential of Short- and Long-Chain Perfluoroalkyl Substances (PFASs)—A Synthesis of Current Knowledge with Proposal of Molecular Mechanism* This stuff sickens me, emotionally. We know the “forever chemicals” (PFAS compounds) are hormone disruptors. We also know that the general population shows a pretty significant divergence from historical averages of many hormones. 3M and DuPont have been denying the problem and covering up their own research for decades. If they admit the problem, if they even correct the problem, they would be admitting liability, and hence a MASSIVE civil lawsuit. So they just… keep making the problem worse. And they’ve been successful for decades. ExxonMobile did the same thing for many decades with it’s research on atmospheric greenhouse gas accumulation. ExxonMobile was the first to have scientific proof of global warming / GHG accumulation… and their executive staff covered it up for decades while they cashed out their stock options. Horrific.
I heard in the 1960s they cranked the factories has hard as they could and made as many products as they could. Most things were very affordable. What I can't stand is the emissions standards of that time were putrid, disgusting. Certainly not as bad as the 1930s but still very bad. Watch a working-class American mom with her 3 kids stroll out of a department store with 3 loaded shopping carts and put all the goods in her station wagon. Now a freaking banana costs $1 and the city of Phoenix is going to be a death trap because of the hot weather. How about an emergency Climate Summit, President Biden.
Paywallreader.com you’re welcome.
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Capitalism and greed don’t care about anything beyond profit. Why humanity cannot understand this, baffles me. We are screwed. It’s heart breaking that the world is dying so a few billionaires can live large.
Same way that Exxon knew about climate change since the 60’s.
Oh yeah they did. But they mathed it out a long long time ago. They knew that no one would ever be any any position to ever really make them face consequences that would amount to anything other than a half a fraction of their bottom line. They had a decision to make. Either find a way to do what they were and still are doing without using the forever cancer chems, or just say screw it and hope that it takes so long to for them to be put on blast that no one will even care or feel strongly enough about it to do anything about it by the time it surfaces.
Wow that was a fun read about world wide contamination 
Woah 🤯 I think about the science that is funded by those looking for a specific outcome. This article speaks a bit negatively about questioning the Covid vaccine. But when we exist in this space with such misaligned incentives between economics and health, is it more crazy that someone would question the validity of what we’re told. Or that one wouldn’t question. This article is from data collected decades ago. Even before plastic was ubiquitous in our society. There will be hundreds of thousands of other chemicals created since that have not been tested. And worse. They’ve been tested and the results are buried.
The [COVID lockdowns of 2020 temporarily lowered our rate of CO2 emissions](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-18922-7/figures/1). Humanity was still a net CO2 gas emitter during that time, so we made things worse, but did so more a bit more slowly. That's why a [graph of CO2 concentrations](https://keelingcurve.ucsd.edu/) shows a continued rise. [Stabilizing the climate means getting human greenhouse gas emissions to approximately zero](https://www.carbonbrief.org/explainer-will-global-warming-stop-as-soon-as-net-zero-emissions-are-reached). We didn't come anywhere near that during the lockdowns. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/climate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The doomers are coming, brace yourself!
What are some positives you take from this?