I'd argue the death of Jason Todd has had a lasting impact on Batman, even after he came back. Batman failed and someone he loved died because of it and he won't ever let himself forget that.
The real question is *what havent they done to Todd?*
If you want to see take a look at his subreddit, when they arent horny posting they are complaining about his writing.
Right now he has his own mini series(Red Hood: The Hill) where he is a supporting character with barely any panel time.
Melissa Gold started as a villain called Screaming Mimi before becoming Songbird. I believe that the reason she has remained as Songbird is because no one really gave a shit about her as Screaming Mimi.
On the topic of the Thunderbolts, Beetle becoming Mach 1 also surprisingly stayed permanent. They just made a new Beetle while Mach 1 continued to upgrade and stay as a hero… albeit mostly ignored and unmentioned.
I think Screaming Mimi is great classic villain name while Songbird is a great superhero name, but Mimi’s outfit… needs a major overhaul to say the least lol. Songbird’s outfit is a classic and works great- all the Thunderbolts outfits I think aged pretty well.
There was the time in Uncanny 379 where Kitty said she was "barely 16" right after the Twelve Saga and that was a really wild head scratcher cause it was well after the mutant massacre, her entire time on Excalibur and her relationship with Pete Wisdom (which retroactively turned him into an actual pedo).
Thankfully it was summarily ignored, and while they didn't exactly place an age on her, in the next story arc (X-Men 100) she proclaims that she's no longer a girl and I think at some point after that it's stated she's 18?
I am fairly certain I recall her drinking on her birthday in Excalibur, so it sounds like they were trying to deage her here and I am glad it did not stick. Jubilee would have been perceivable as much younger too and the New Mutants and Gen x. Jubilee has grown up now, it is kind of jarring, but I am okay with it.
Y'know, it's never occurred to me to wonder before, but how do they reconcile the sliding timescale with the fact that characters like Kitty have demonstrably, objectively aged? I realise in the Krakoan era it's easier to handwave for mutants, but what about the wider MU?
They tried a few years ago with The Ultimates by Al Ewing. There's a scene where Galactus is describing the flow of time to the main characters. >!He tells them that certain events have a form of narrative and temporal weight, and are constantly being pulled in the wake of 'the present' so they're always just a few years behind now.!<
Patsy Walker aka Hellcat. In the 40’s and 50’s she was part of the romance line of comics aimed at girls. The in the 70’s the character was dusted off and turned into the superhero Hellcat.
Batman becoming a father in Grant Morrison's run changed him completely for better or for worse. The idea of him being a family man has become inextricable.
Also Xavier and his fellows being outed as mutants to the world in New X-Men somehow never got reversed despite everything else.
The Batman being a father one lasting is funny because Morrison had always intended Damian to stay dead. Hell, originally he was going to die in his very first story.
Yeah the irony is so rich to me considering Morrison wrote Damian with the full expectation it couldn't last. Sometimes you don't know what's gonna strike a nerve with corporate, I guess.
It’s crazy that Professor X not being known as a mutant was ever a thing. In a similar vein Tony Stark got outed as Iron Man in the early or mid 2000s and that has stuck as well.
> Also Xavier and his fellows being outed as mutants to the world in New X-Men somehow never got reversed despite everything else.
Wow. I’m currently reading Morrison’s run for the first time, and I never realized that the world had no idea he was a mutant! I also had no idea that it stayed public, either!
Nice one!
Over the course of time quite a few:
Power Changes notably:
* Wonder Woman can fly since the George Perez run,
* Superman got Kryptonite weakness due to radio show, flying due to animated show, other synergy things.
* Green Lantern's yellow weakness is a result Parallax
* Daredevil's radar vision I think
* Beast turned Blue, Emma Frost became able to turn to diamond,
"Promotions":
* Dick Grayson turned to Nightwing,
* Carol Danvers became Captain Marvel,
* Wally West is the Flash
* Edit: Jim Rhodes --> pilot to Iron Man to War Machine
Complete character back story revamps:
* Jason Todd becoming a car thief instead of Dick Grayson 2.0 since Max Allan Collins (I think)
* Lex Luthor becoming a Billionnaire industrialist, \~\~also a childhood friend of Clark Kent\~\~ Edit: never mind just remembered he was there in the silver age.
* Mister Freeze with the whole Frozen wife thing
Character changes:
* Iron Man becoming an alcoholic
* adversaries turned heroes like Rogue, Black Widow, Emma Frost, Hawkeye, Gambit, etc.
* Ultimate Reed Richards becoming the Maker in the case of heroes.
Idk wheere to put this
* Tony Stark reveals his identity to the public during the lead up to Civil War
* Kingpin becoming Daredevil's arch nemesis
That is Alan Scott the Golden Age Green Lantern’s vulnerability.
Hal Jordan and all subsequent green lanterns have a different origin where the weakness was to yellow.
Brief summary:
- She's been a Marvel character since the 60s introduced as a regular human air force pilot (love interest to OG Captain Marvel).
- Got powers in the 70s (called herself Ms Marvel, coz OG Captain Marvel was there)
- Got depowered then turbo-charged in 80s (call herself Binary), OG Captain Marvel died in 80s.
- Was comparatively nerfed and then went through some stuff in the 90s (called herself Warbird).
- She decided she needed rebranding and went back to calling herself Ms. Marvel in the 2000s
- She became a major Marvel super-hero (Iron-Man's #2) in the late 2000s due to Civil War.
- In 2010s OG Captain Marvel resurrects and then sacrifices his life to save everyone. Inspired by the nobility of this act she starts calling herself Captain Marvel.
Oh this is an incredibly brief abstracted account I would recommend reading a wiki article on her there are some wild things that happened, especially in her first avengers stint
Genius 3 year old baby Valeria Richards. It was Mark Millar who did it btw.
I find it a bit creepy, even when Jonathan Hickman wrote her. Thank god, recently marvel aged her up significantly.
That age up was done so poorly. Even setting aside my hatred of losing out on that time with the character (especially coming right at the same time DC did the same thing to Jonathan Kent), it's been all over the place. Slott said they were gone for five years, relatively speaking. So Val should be ten at most, but it's been wildly inconsistent.
Wally West! He went from a headstrong teenager to a responsible loving husband and father. Mark Waid’s run on Flash was when I completely fell in love with comics. A big part because of the growth you got to see the character go through.
At first yes. But as soon as the writers could they got him back in (he existed outside the universe and therefore could remember his pre-52 life, even though no one else could. He eventually was able to escape and make Barry remember and then slowly, he got integrated back into the timeline along with his wife and kids. Man, fuck Dan Didio.)
Almost everything Swamp Thing went through during Alan Moore’s run.
EDIT: I forgot about Alec Holland being brought back and made Swampy, so change “almost everything” to “about half of the things” (considering the whole concept of the Green and the Parliament has remained unchanged).
Sort of.
She was never monosyllabic or childlike like Classic Hulk, just aangry. But yeah, She didn't mellow out until after her 25 issue series was over, when she was an Avenger and F4 member.
Grey hulk was actually about fear more so then anger it was similar in overall concept but pretty different in execution. (Caused by her own death and Bruce’s )
Magneto grew and changed a lot under Claremont, all to be forcibly undone in the first 3 issues of adjective-less X-Men and was part of the reason he quit.
People give Morrison a lot of shit for how Magneto was portrayed as super evil in Planet X, and although they took it way too far, it was sadly consistent with how Magneto had been depicted in the 90s.
Fair enough. I guess a better example would be Hector Hall, the current Dream of the Endless. Dude got promoted to god of dreams & everyone respects Gaiman too much to fiddle with it
Superman/Clark was not in a real, meaningful romantic relationship with Lois until the 90’s. Now it’s taken for granted that they are in a permanent marriage.
It almost got undone.
When Jurgens was leaving and the big Y2K refresh was happening, there was a proposal by Morrison, Millar, Waid, and Peyer to basically OMD Supes and bring back the Supes-Lois-Clark love Triangle.
Editorial declined and kept the status quo with Loeb and Kelly.
It actually did get undone in the New 52 though, not only were Lois and Clark no longer married and never were, they were dating other people. It wasn't until DC Rebirth that the Superman and Lois marriage was restored to much rejoicing.
Just a smidge before, Convergence (anyone else remeber that?) bought back the OG post Crisis Lois and Clark and slowly nudged there New 52 version out of there comics before Rebirth basically reset everyone else!
It probably helps that Dragon Man was never the most memorable FF antagonist, there weren't really that many stories you could tell with the old silent animalistic Dragon Man.
More than a few were allowed to change to a point, before they were put on loop again:
Dick Grayson has now been Nightwing in the comics almost as long as he was Robin, though being the single, semi-confident Nightwing is more or less where he appears to be stuck forever now; that does limit the growth but that is still a long way from the teen sidekick/POV character he was to being the post New Teen Titans version of the character;
Peter Parker was allowed to grow until the early 1990's, from high school nerd to respectable photographer (and PhD dropout) married to MJ before Marvel rolled it back a bit and started him on the loop of going back to his late Bronze Age set up ;
Patsy Walker is long past her time as Marvel's answer to Archie though is more or less stuck as the Goth/emo post divorce version of herself;
Oliver Queen went from being not-Bruce Wayne to more obvious modern Robin Hood and I doubt he ever goes back but he is unlikely to be allowed to grow from there ever again
Daredevil was an older copy of Spiderman when Stan wrote the title/ Same wise crack while fighting. Frank Miller turned him into the brutal devil we know today. Even though he's currently a priest, he's still the Miller guy at heart.
For the longest time a big part of Wolverine's character was not knowing who he was but that hasn't changed. Don't know if that has ever really changed how his character is written though.
Wolverine has both grown and regressed in a few ways. He's a lot more measured and less hotheaded now and is often looked to as a defacto leader in the absence of others.... but he is a lot more reckless in fights due to having his healing factor gradually increased to the point writers often forget he is supposed to be in the top tier of h2h combatants in comics.
There’s a lot for iron man:
Design: switching from the bulky grey to the iconic red and gold armor
Character: introducing his alcoholism and sobriety
Status quo: originally having a secret identity before revealing it publicly
Superman married Lois Lane and had a child with her, something that has stayed for a while now and nobody wants to go back because it would be a total regression. Same thing about Batman with Damian.
I don't believe that that counts. As I recall, that would only be the case, if you counted their backstory before the first issue. And a panel or two in the very first appearance.
I would only say that it would count, if they went at least one whole issue as villains, first.
Their appearances. Decades ago. Obviously. What's not to understand about that? I vaguely remember reading the very first appearance of both characters mentioned. Eel O' Brian was a thief. But he choose to reform, prior to starting his career as Plastic Man. Police Comics issue 1. And prior to getting powers. I would only think it counts if he committed some villainy, in an issue or two, as that identity. Like Hawkeye, or the Black Widow did.
And Raven is the daughter of a demon. That doesn't make her evil.
I'd argue the death of Jason Todd has had a lasting impact on Batman, even after he came back. Batman failed and someone he loved died because of it and he won't ever let himself forget that.
And Jason Todd himself is very different to his Robin days, and even his Under the Red Hood days.
Jason Todd is the opposite of character development lol. But i guess you could say he is different
Oh no is it bad? I fell off after new52 red hood and the outlaws for his character, what did they do to Todd?
The real question is *what havent they done to Todd?* If you want to see take a look at his subreddit, when they arent horny posting they are complaining about his writing. Right now he has his own mini series(Red Hood: The Hill) where he is a supporting character with barely any panel time.
I feel like every character specific sub is either horny posting or complaining about the character’s writing tbh
lol. My point was that if they take a look on those posts they can see what all the problems with the character are.
I love how Dick and Jason have been allowed to grow up and become Nightwing/Red Hood. It makes the batfamily so much more interesting.
But is Batman not letting himself forget something out of character or a fundamental change to how he operates?
Melissa Gold started as a villain called Screaming Mimi before becoming Songbird. I believe that the reason she has remained as Songbird is because no one really gave a shit about her as Screaming Mimi.
On the topic of the Thunderbolts, Beetle becoming Mach 1 also surprisingly stayed permanent. They just made a new Beetle while Mach 1 continued to upgrade and stay as a hero… albeit mostly ignored and unmentioned.
Songbird is also an *infinitely* better name than Screaming Mimi as well lol
I think Screaming Mimi is great classic villain name while Songbird is a great superhero name, but Mimi’s outfit… needs a major overhaul to say the least lol. Songbird’s outfit is a classic and works great- all the Thunderbolts outfits I think aged pretty well.
Luke Cage changed a ton under Bendis.
And he's one of the few heroes who has gotten married and has stayed married.
So much for the better too. 90s Luke Cage was awful lol
Kitty Pryde has been allowed to continuously grow up without ever being reverted to her original state
There was the time in Uncanny 379 where Kitty said she was "barely 16" right after the Twelve Saga and that was a really wild head scratcher cause it was well after the mutant massacre, her entire time on Excalibur and her relationship with Pete Wisdom (which retroactively turned him into an actual pedo). Thankfully it was summarily ignored, and while they didn't exactly place an age on her, in the next story arc (X-Men 100) she proclaims that she's no longer a girl and I think at some point after that it's stated she's 18?
I am fairly certain I recall her drinking on her birthday in Excalibur, so it sounds like they were trying to deage her here and I am glad it did not stick. Jubilee would have been perceivable as much younger too and the New Mutants and Gen x. Jubilee has grown up now, it is kind of jarring, but I am okay with it.
Y'know, it's never occurred to me to wonder before, but how do they reconcile the sliding timescale with the fact that characters like Kitty have demonstrably, objectively aged? I realise in the Krakoan era it's easier to handwave for mutants, but what about the wider MU?
Trying to reconcile the sliding timeline is honestly such a waste of time
Amen
They tried a few years ago with The Ultimates by Al Ewing. There's a scene where Galactus is describing the flow of time to the main characters. >!He tells them that certain events have a form of narrative and temporal weight, and are constantly being pulled in the wake of 'the present' so they're always just a few years behind now.!<
Gotcha! That's actually a pretty clever solution. Man, physics in the MU must be an absolute nightmare
Yeah. It's best not to think about too deeply,for the sake of your's(and everybody else's)sanity.
Its just a fancy way of saying "that's how it is folks, move on." A wink at the readers more than anything isn't it?
Yes and now because it's actually kind of a plot point
How so? I’m not caught up yet with current X-Men comics
Patsy Walker aka Hellcat. In the 40’s and 50’s she was part of the romance line of comics aimed at girls. The in the 70’s the character was dusted off and turned into the superhero Hellcat.
And she became Hellcat using the costume created for The Cat, Greer Nelson, who was made furry and upgraded to Tigra. And that stuck, too.
Batman becoming a father in Grant Morrison's run changed him completely for better or for worse. The idea of him being a family man has become inextricable. Also Xavier and his fellows being outed as mutants to the world in New X-Men somehow never got reversed despite everything else.
The Batman being a father one lasting is funny because Morrison had always intended Damian to stay dead. Hell, originally he was going to die in his very first story.
Yeah the irony is so rich to me considering Morrison wrote Damian with the full expectation it couldn't last. Sometimes you don't know what's gonna strike a nerve with corporate, I guess.
It’s crazy that Professor X not being known as a mutant was ever a thing. In a similar vein Tony Stark got outed as Iron Man in the early or mid 2000s and that has stuck as well.
Right. It's one of those things that's normalized now but just was accepted as part of the formation of these comics.
> Also Xavier and his fellows being outed as mutants to the world in New X-Men somehow never got reversed despite everything else. Wow. I’m currently reading Morrison’s run for the first time, and I never realized that the world had no idea he was a mutant! I also had no idea that it stayed public, either! Nice one!
Over the course of time quite a few: Power Changes notably: * Wonder Woman can fly since the George Perez run, * Superman got Kryptonite weakness due to radio show, flying due to animated show, other synergy things. * Green Lantern's yellow weakness is a result Parallax * Daredevil's radar vision I think * Beast turned Blue, Emma Frost became able to turn to diamond, "Promotions": * Dick Grayson turned to Nightwing, * Carol Danvers became Captain Marvel, * Wally West is the Flash * Edit: Jim Rhodes --> pilot to Iron Man to War Machine Complete character back story revamps: * Jason Todd becoming a car thief instead of Dick Grayson 2.0 since Max Allan Collins (I think) * Lex Luthor becoming a Billionnaire industrialist, \~\~also a childhood friend of Clark Kent\~\~ Edit: never mind just remembered he was there in the silver age. * Mister Freeze with the whole Frozen wife thing Character changes: * Iron Man becoming an alcoholic * adversaries turned heroes like Rogue, Black Widow, Emma Frost, Hawkeye, Gambit, etc. * Ultimate Reed Richards becoming the Maker in the case of heroes. Idk wheere to put this * Tony Stark reveals his identity to the public during the lead up to Civil War * Kingpin becoming Daredevil's arch nemesis
For character changes you could also add the fact that Hank Pym still deals with repercussions from a single panel
Am I remembering wrong or wasn't Green Lantern's vulnerability originally to wood, not yellow?
AFAIK, that was Alan Scott, the golden age green lantern
That is Alan Scott the Golden Age Green Lantern’s vulnerability. Hal Jordan and all subsequent green lanterns have a different origin where the weakness was to yellow.
> Carol Danvers became Captain Marvel, Who was she before she became Captain Marvel, again?
She was Ms. Marvel, also Warbird for a time.
And Binary.
Oh wow, didn’t know that! So what were the differences between all of them?
Brief summary: - She's been a Marvel character since the 60s introduced as a regular human air force pilot (love interest to OG Captain Marvel). - Got powers in the 70s (called herself Ms Marvel, coz OG Captain Marvel was there) - Got depowered then turbo-charged in 80s (call herself Binary), OG Captain Marvel died in 80s. - Was comparatively nerfed and then went through some stuff in the 90s (called herself Warbird). - She decided she needed rebranding and went back to calling herself Ms. Marvel in the 2000s - She became a major Marvel super-hero (Iron-Man's #2) in the late 2000s due to Civil War. - In 2010s OG Captain Marvel resurrects and then sacrifices his life to save everyone. Inspired by the nobility of this act she starts calling herself Captain Marvel.
Wow, I had no idea there was so much to her history! Thanks for sharing!
Oh this is an incredibly brief abstracted account I would recommend reading a wiki article on her there are some wild things that happened, especially in her first avengers stint
Nice! Will do. Thanks!
I don’t think Harley Quinn has been Joker’s lackey for some time now
Last time was during the New 52.
And even then that was before her own series launched
And even then not really since she was busy with the Suicide Squad and he was operating solo dolo.
Genius 3 year old baby Valeria Richards. It was Mark Millar who did it btw. I find it a bit creepy, even when Jonathan Hickman wrote her. Thank god, recently marvel aged her up significantly.
That's funny, Hickman also fixed Millar's horribly edgy character Gorgon too
That age up was done so poorly. Even setting aside my hatred of losing out on that time with the character (especially coming right at the same time DC did the same thing to Jonathan Kent), it's been all over the place. Slott said they were gone for five years, relatively speaking. So Val should be ten at most, but it's been wildly inconsistent.
Wally West! He went from a headstrong teenager to a responsible loving husband and father. Mark Waid’s run on Flash was when I completely fell in love with comics. A big part because of the growth you got to see the character go through.
I miss the days of him and Kyle Raynor.
Didn't that all get retconned with New 52 though?
At first yes. But as soon as the writers could they got him back in (he existed outside the universe and therefore could remember his pre-52 life, even though no one else could. He eventually was able to escape and make Barry remember and then slowly, he got integrated back into the timeline along with his wife and kids. Man, fuck Dan Didio.)
Its' back he got his family back after the Doomsday Clock era ended.
And Dan Didio and other DC higher-ups genuinely hated him for it.
Speaking of Waid’s 90s Flash run, that’s where he also created the speed force which has been a staple in the Flash mythology ever since.
Bringing back Bucky as Winter Soldier
Almost everything Swamp Thing went through during Alan Moore’s run. EDIT: I forgot about Alec Holland being brought back and made Swampy, so change “almost everything” to “about half of the things” (considering the whole concept of the Green and the Parliament has remained unchanged).
Didn’t they kill off the real Swampy and replace him with Alec in the New 52?
Fuck, I somehow forgot about that. Aight, I take it back.
Although IDK if it qualifies but the whole concept of the Green & the Parliament of Trees etc remains.
She-Hulk was basically the Hulk but a she when she first premiered The saucy flirt only came along a decade or so after
Sort of. She was never monosyllabic or childlike like Classic Hulk, just aangry. But yeah, She didn't mellow out until after her 25 issue series was over, when she was an Avenger and F4 member.
True enough But neither was the original Hulk.
Didn't she go back to angry hulk during Mariko Tamaki's run? I didn't read it so I might be mistaken, just basing off covers and panels.
Grey hulk was actually about fear more so then anger it was similar in overall concept but pretty different in execution. (Caused by her own death and Bruce’s )
Different way.
Magneto being a hero. At this point he has at a minimum been morally gray at least as long as he was ever a pure villain if not longer.
Magneto grew and changed a lot under Claremont, all to be forcibly undone in the first 3 issues of adjective-less X-Men and was part of the reason he quit.
People give Morrison a lot of shit for how Magneto was portrayed as super evil in Planet X, and although they took it way too far, it was sadly consistent with how Magneto had been depicted in the 90s.
Look what he did to Wolverine
I mean Magneto was kinda being pushed further and further into villainy ( because of how much of the new mutants were little pieces of shit)
Jack Knight, Starman. Dude became a hero, had a couple kids, got married and retired & nobody has messed with him since.
That's not really the same thing because all of Jack Knight's character arc happened in the same run under the same writer who created him.
Fair enough. I guess a better example would be Hector Hall, the current Dream of the Endless. Dude got promoted to god of dreams & everyone respects Gaiman too much to fiddle with it
Superboy Prime is a completely different character than he was in the 80s
getting so angry at the grimdark that you punch reality will do that to a kid
Green Arrow going from generic Batman ripoff to outspoken leftist
Superman/Clark was not in a real, meaningful romantic relationship with Lois until the 90’s. Now it’s taken for granted that they are in a permanent marriage.
It almost got undone. When Jurgens was leaving and the big Y2K refresh was happening, there was a proposal by Morrison, Millar, Waid, and Peyer to basically OMD Supes and bring back the Supes-Lois-Clark love Triangle. Editorial declined and kept the status quo with Loeb and Kelly.
It actually did get undone in the New 52 though, not only were Lois and Clark no longer married and never were, they were dating other people. It wasn't until DC Rebirth that the Superman and Lois marriage was restored to much rejoicing.
ah, yes, New52 Clark accusing Lois of responding to a booty call that one time. Why did people ever hate that run? /s
Haha do you have a link? I gotta see this 😭
Just a smidge before, Convergence (anyone else remeber that?) bought back the OG post Crisis Lois and Clark and slowly nudged there New 52 version out of there comics before Rebirth basically reset everyone else!
Storm during Claremont’s original X-run.
Venom Villain to Lethal Protector to Several New Hosts to Space God - Universal God
Dragon man becoming a FF supporting character under Hickman
It probably helps that Dragon Man was never the most memorable FF antagonist, there weren't really that many stories you could tell with the old silent animalistic Dragon Man.
More than a few were allowed to change to a point, before they were put on loop again: Dick Grayson has now been Nightwing in the comics almost as long as he was Robin, though being the single, semi-confident Nightwing is more or less where he appears to be stuck forever now; that does limit the growth but that is still a long way from the teen sidekick/POV character he was to being the post New Teen Titans version of the character; Peter Parker was allowed to grow until the early 1990's, from high school nerd to respectable photographer (and PhD dropout) married to MJ before Marvel rolled it back a bit and started him on the loop of going back to his late Bronze Age set up ; Patsy Walker is long past her time as Marvel's answer to Archie though is more or less stuck as the Goth/emo post divorce version of herself; Oliver Queen went from being not-Bruce Wayne to more obvious modern Robin Hood and I doubt he ever goes back but he is unlikely to be allowed to grow from there ever again
Daredevil was an older copy of Spiderman when Stan wrote the title/ Same wise crack while fighting. Frank Miller turned him into the brutal devil we know today. Even though he's currently a priest, he's still the Miller guy at heart.
Hawkeye, Black Widow, the Maximoffs, Rogue, Emma, and probably some more I’m not recalling right now, all used to be villains.
>Black Widow, Natasha. And she worked alongside the Titanium Man, Boris. Boris and Natasha. "Must catch Moose and Squirrel!"
Cyclops from Morrison through Gillen.
Aquaman
A bunch of the Marvel cosmic characters following the events of Annihilation. Particularly Nova, Star Lord and Groot.
For the longest time a big part of Wolverine's character was not knowing who he was but that hasn't changed. Don't know if that has ever really changed how his character is written though.
Wolverine has both grown and regressed in a few ways. He's a lot more measured and less hotheaded now and is often looked to as a defacto leader in the absence of others.... but he is a lot more reckless in fights due to having his healing factor gradually increased to the point writers often forget he is supposed to be in the top tier of h2h combatants in comics.
Fighting ability 7 from all the cards IIRC
Who else was up there? Captain America? Cable? Drawing a blank here.
Shang chi, deadpool, black panther off the top of my head.
Jessica Jones
Ben Grimm is definitely a lot less bitter than he was during the first few issues of FF.
There’s a lot for iron man: Design: switching from the bulky grey to the iconic red and gold armor Character: introducing his alcoholism and sobriety Status quo: originally having a secret identity before revealing it publicly
Superman married Lois Lane and had a child with her, something that has stayed for a while now and nobody wants to go back because it would be a total regression. Same thing about Batman with Damian.
Plastic Man and Raven were both on again off again villilains that eventually settles to being heroes.
I don't believe that that counts. As I recall, that would only be the case, if you counted their backstory before the first issue. And a panel or two in the very first appearance. I would only say that it would count, if they went at least one whole issue as villains, first.
The first issue of what? Both have been around for decades. :(
Their appearances. Decades ago. Obviously. What's not to understand about that? I vaguely remember reading the very first appearance of both characters mentioned. Eel O' Brian was a thief. But he choose to reform, prior to starting his career as Plastic Man. Police Comics issue 1. And prior to getting powers. I would only think it counts if he committed some villainy, in an issue or two, as that identity. Like Hawkeye, or the Black Widow did. And Raven is the daughter of a demon. That doesn't make her evil.
....nvm. I'm not gonna argue comic history.