Business is easily the most profitable seats for the airline since corporate clients are price insensitive - "it is company's money".
However, it is also a good product because they do want repeat customers. As a result, it is the also the seating which creates 'best' deals for customers. With some planning and flexibility, laypeople should be able to snag a business seat for say 3x the economy price while getting disproportionately better hard product and service.
I was on spirit and they upgraded me to the BIG SEATS. It was a last minute only flight I can find and I just moved up there and than kind of lold to myself that they charge 50-75 bucks more for a chair that has 2 extra inches of width.
The flight attendant gave me a little captain Morgan shooter for free too.
So I decided I have two hours in the air to get smashed and I got smashed
United didn't start reconfiguring the 3-class 777s until 2018, and they didn't take a ton out of service at a time to do so. It is very likely that OP was on one of these pre-Polaris 777-200s in 2019.
TBH, I don’t know about the economy options. From my seat in front I only observed first and business classes…not sure what additional class sections were behind those.
This was in 2019. [Looks like it still offers UnitedFirst seats for domestic U.S./Canada flights only.](https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/onboard-experience.html#:~:text=For%20travel%20within%20the%20U.S.,bags%20and%20priority%20baggage%20handling.)
There is no business class from Chicago to LA. The infographic is for international flights. Domestically, there is generally only first class, premium economy, and economy. And domestic first class != Intl first class.
Intl first class = generally non existent domestically
Intl business class = first class domestically where wide bodies are available
Intl premium economy= domestic first class
No but I have gotten my expenses approved and no has batted an eyelid when I took the direct flight which cost ~$2000 extra instead of a flight with a 2hr layover.
With my personal money, I'd have ALWAYS taken the 2hr layover, but when it is company money....
I fly international frequently and on one job we had to be on site every two weeks so it was two weeks on, two weeks off. Brutal but we flew business/first every time. Each trip was about $15k *per person* just for the flights and there was about 5 or 6 of us every trip. This project took about 3 years to complete….
If I’m using my money it’s economy every damn time lol
Quick math: 15k x 5 people = 75k per flight. Every 2 weeks for 3 years = 78 flights. Cost the company 5.85 million just for the air travel! Must have been a big contract.
Indeed it was. And that cost didn’t include the hotel. When they bid these contracts, the mammoth travel cost is added up front.
It sounds snobbish to say that I wouldn’t work those programs if I didn’t fly business/first but 14 hours of flight time every two weeks with a 9 hour time change is brutal on your body as it is. Sleep schedule is hell because your body is never used to the time zone it’s in. You miss a ton of time and events with family and kids as well. If we flew economy, everyone would burn out very quickly
First handful of times it’s awesome. Then it just turns into work but you don’t get to see your family when you go back to the hotel. That’s why they have to sweeten the pot so much. Business class travel, great hotels, overseas bonus pay, extra PTO and you get to keep all your airline miles so you can use those for personal trips. The turnover would be crazy if the benefits were less
All the single guys loved it. If we needed someone to do a three week trip or do a one week turnaround, we’d usually try to get the single guys to do it
Corporate is definitely more price insensitive. For example, my company may put out a guideline that says flights must be economy and any ticket cost above $500 domestic must have special approval. But that’s for staff. For executives and higher ups, they fly business class and accounting has little influence over bookings. If some executive says book me business class, nobody is going to stop them, and nobody is asking about price.
> 3x the economy price while getting disproportionately better hard product and service.
I know economy isn't great but I doubt business is actually 3x better.
I’ve flown a fuck ton of business and first and domestic isn’t really a big deal/difference besides drinks and a wider seat. Night and day difference when you’re flying international. Having a seat that lays flat is a game changer
It's at least 3x better, though the issue is since flying is so expensive in general, you have to weigh the price difference against what else you would do with your money. Like... if you are on vacation with your SO, almost certainly the extra $3-5k will result in a more memorable trip going to several nice restaurants, and upgrading to a nicer hotel. Or hell going on a second vacation.
You're totally wrong about that. It's easily worth 5x if not more on long haul routes, which this guide specifies is the market being discussed. Also note that arriving at the destination well-rested gains you a day of vacation, and returning home well-rested can save a day of leave.
I recently booked lie flat business from the US east coast to Kuala Lumpur for only 2x the cost of an economy ticket. Almost feels like I'm robbing the airline.
As a layperson 3x is still mad to me. I think of it as putting a $ amount per hour on what I'm having to put up with sitting in economy vs business. I'd have to be pretty damn rich to not think I could spend that money on something that would more than offset it in terms of enjoyment.
Honestly, 3x is stretching it, but the upgrade to Business Class is definitely serious value. I once had the opportunity to upgrade the overnight flight from NY to Europe for 350 USD on Singapore Air, didn’t even have to think about it. Ridiculously good deal. (I‘m traveling internationally semi-regularly for actual business and get to fly Business Class then, so I knew what I was getting.)
Obviously, the calculation also shifts a lot the older you get and the more disposable income you have.
I think that's how everything is basically priced. What the corporate business card will pay for on a trip. This goes for hotel rooms, restaurants, bars....
This is the classic case of revealed preference. Customers claim they value comfortable, luxurious flights, but when actually presented with the choice, they’ll usually go for the cheapest possible ticket.
There is, if people actually put small items under the seat in front of them. This is of course too much to ask, though. That, and placing suitcases on the narrow sides.
yeah on my flights yesterday people were stuffing their purses and little backpacks in the overheads. then they spend half the flight getting up to fish out their air pods or whatever. brain dead behavior
sure, and I'll even give allowances for people with joint stiffness or other concerns. but these were 737 max 8s and the folks I observed were on the younger side, so I feel safe assuming they were just being foolish
I assume these were tall people who don’t want to bend down or even have room to reach for their stuffs down by their legs?
I’m on the short side so I never really have a problem with air travel and honestly it’s the few time when it’s a positive to be short lol.
And Yeah, you look uncomfortable being 6’+ on the flights now, but I’m 100% you wouldn’t trade it for being 5’5” lol.
Nah not especially talk that I observed, though like I said elsewhere if I see a 6'5" dude stowing his bag overhead, I'll cut him some slack. It's def not a hard and fast rule
the space under the seats is a lot smaller now, and there is less leg room to begin with. now that the seats have been made smaller and even less comfortable, people are taking the obvious route of putting their bags elsewhere.
If I've paid to check my case and only have a small laptop backpack for carry on while others bring on these huge fucking hard cases and a couple of other bags as their carry on, you bet your ass I'm putting my backpack up there too.
Not my problem they're too much of tightarse to check baggage and I want every millimetre of legroom available.
lol bro the bins are sized for those hard cases and checking bags costs extra. the attendants also explicitly ask you to keep small carryons like laptop bags under your seat. but you do you
My point is that there would be more passengers who don't carry *any* on if checking a bag didn't cost extra. Back in the day 2 free checked bags was standard.
First class for international flights can be 10x the cost of economy. Most domestic labeled “first class” is not first class, it’s business. There’s not a separate section for business in those flights.
Damn, what kind of long haul flights are you on? I‘be flown fairly regularly between the states & Europe, as well as Asia & I’ve never encountered these Premium Economy seats.
Singapore Airlines was the nicest premium economy I’ve encountered, but it still wasn’t a seat as big as a “first class” seat on a domestic flight.
Could just be the domestic first class were that shitty in comparison. Some spoke to hub connection flights can have pretty tiny first class cabin seats that make international premium economy seats seem massive. Having flown premium economy from Sydney to Dallas and Paris to New York, yeah they’re about the same in terms of space as the first class cabin in flights from my regional airport to the hubs it services.
That makes sense. I do fairly regular trips from PDX to LAX/San Diego & occasionally get bumped up to first on those flights. They’re nothing like long haul first class, but they’re still a step above long haul premium economy.
I’m going to London this weekend from the East Coast US and all the airlines that I could select from had their premium economy essentially the same as domestic first class. (BA, American, and Virgin Atlantic).
Big seats, champagne when you board, dedicated lavs for that class, etc. Set up is 2-4-2 since it’s a wide body so I made sure to get a seat on the side so I only have one neighbor.
This: https://thepointsguy.com/reviews/united-premium-economy-europe/
That's roughly the best seats on domestic. The in-between class in domestic is just extra leg room.
Can confirm it is. I looked at a few airlines the last few months for both personal and business travel. Airlines know alot of businesses are dropping business class from their travel policies in favor or premium economy so they are pricing premium economy just below business. I did an analysis on this and found premium economy was about 10% less the cost from business.
That doesn't line up with this then, if we believe the space per seat taken. Because PE takes much less than business, so if it was only 10% less, the revenue per square foot would be massively higher.
Premium economy in Europe is slightly different to the US. The seat are bigger (normally 8 across instead of 9, and 38 inch legroom instead of 32). Not sure if any US airlines have done this yet, but in Europe it's been around for a while and when I was working for an airline, it was the most profitable cabin per sq ft. Prices can indeed be 2-3x more (also remember in Europe, a big chunk of ticket price is tax / airport fees, so even if the ticket is 800 vs 500, take off the 200 taxes and for the airline you're looking at 600 vs 300)
Premium economy is not “extra leg room” seats and is typically not offered on domestic flights. On long haul flights, premium economy uses different chairs (often in 2-2-2 instead of 3-4-3 layout) with better meals and bigger screens. It’s more than $50 more usually
Way more than $50 more. Can confirm that my PE seats to Europe this week were about 2x economy. The change in comfort and quality of service is worth it for a long haul. Sadly I still am not at business class budget 😓😓
2-2-2 in Premium Eco on planes with 10-abreast in economy? I don’t know of a single airline that does that. 2-2-2 was the standard config for angled lie-flat business seats before staggered 1-2-1 became industry standard. Premium eco is usually 2-3-2 for 8- or 9-abreast eco and 2-4-2 for 10-abreast.
I never understood why so many people on the internet said they always choose premium economy. Here where I live premium economy is always at least twice the cost of regular economy. Now I understand it, because apparently in some aviation markets premium economy is way less than that. Maybe in such a scenariobI would be willing to fly premium economy as well those few times I fly.
Most posters here are confusing premium economy with Economy + offerings. The latter is specific to domestic US airlines and offers extra legroom in exchange for a slightly higher price ($50-100 more usually).
It’s silly, but I find that having one kid is actually kinda nice for economy.
Yes, I have to buy them a ticket, but what this means is that I am guaranteed to have more space and not be crammed in next to another full size adult, so that’s pretty nice.
The best thing about being in plebling section with a plebling is that you don’t worry about occasionally disturbing your neighbors. Because, well, your neighbors are also traveling with pleblings. The bar is set pretty low
Business and first are effectively the same thing on domestic flights. Some airlines like Delta & United don't even have true first class cabins but just economy, premium economy and business/first. The only US airline offering a true first class cabins on any flight is American and they're slowly but surely eliminating that in favor of an expanded business class cabin
I don’t know the real answer but I have a feeling that the first class on many planes would qualify as business on a larger plane that had like lay flat seats, but since many people flying First on those larger planes will have some regional connecting flight in their itinerary that doesn’t include lay flat the airlines drop the business moniker to make the FC pax feel like they aren’t getting a downgraded service on the connecting flight
Look up a true international First class product, and you’ll see the difference between that and the domestic first class you’re thinking of. Singapore Suites on their A380, for example
Absolutely right. These days, domestic "first class" is just premium economy by global standards, even on the nicest domestic airlines. Delta One is the closest thing we get stateside to a true first class like you mentioned, and even that is only used on their transpac and ULH routes. USA-EU flights only offer the business class.
AA offers a true first class on their US transon routes (as well as select international destinations) but even that is going away soon. While Delta One is nice, it’s definitely still a business class product.
I’m a big miles and points nut, so have flown a ton of different products around the world. Definitely confusing how US airlines market their different offerings.
Its not just the room. It's the also the work invloved for the employees and products used. First class usually has 1 FA, who is paid more than the others, for 16-20 people on domestic and 3 FAs for around 140+. A second FA also typically helps for some of the flight. Labor difference isnt massive but it adds up. Better snacks, free drinks, free meals, more room. All keeps adding up. Also, a good amount of first class is sold at a discount for corporate accounts as well as non revenue passengers with benefits. Some trans ocianic flights the majority of Delta one passengers dont pay a dime to get in those seats due to flight benefits.
On Delta, for example, comfort plus is a good bit more expensive than premium economy but the difference isnt very big. A few inches more leg room and free alcoholic drinks is about it and the vast majority dont partake in the free alcohol. This is all based on what i see as an emoloyee, so its anecdotal, but i dont doubt that this chart is accurate from what i see.
Depends which airline. Singapore airline gives you a whole room, with a seat and a separate bed. Etihad’s The residence is more akin to a hotel room: you have a “living room” with your seat, a private bathroom with shower in the “hallway” and a separate bedroom with a bed.
Upgraded seats feel like such a waste of money to me. First class costs like 10x as much as economy which means you’re probably spending at least $1000 an hour or so extra just for a little more comfort. And you still have to go through the same airports and sit in the same stuffy plane.
First class passengers on long haul flights typically get lounge access included which means their airport experience is a lot better than everyone else's. They show up, go through security and get to enjoy free food & a mostly open bar until they take off.
Yup. I feel spoiled AF when I fly for work. Shorter lines through TSA, lounge access, priority boarding, lay flat seats, amazing menus. It’s definitely worth it…when someone else is paying for it 😉
That’s what lifestyle inflation does. Once you drive a car you can’t go back to taking a bus. Once you pay to have someone cut your grass, hard to go back to doing it yourself. Once you start flying first class, going back to economy is really hard.
I flew first class a few months ago on a domestic flight. I needed 2 checked bags which came included with first class. The price difference between a FC ticket and Normal ticket with 2 checked bags was about $50 round trip so I went for it. It included an in-flight meal, free drinks, a more comfortable seat (I’m 6’2” so I get uncomfortable even on short plane rides) and priority boarding.
If I didn’t have to check bags, it would have never been a thought. I usually just have a carry on so no point in paying extra.
Domestic first is more akin to international business and isn’t even close to international first with suites, etc. (Note: I don’t have international first class money though so I stick to business class.)
I agree though that after baggage fees, the extra perks make domestic first easily worth the extra costs imo.
P.s. Next time you fly domestic first be sure to check out the airport lounge too if you didn’t before. A much more comfortable spot to wait for your flight than the terminal plus free drinks & snacks, quality WiFi, and a much better restroom situation. [Depending on airport and airline the lounges range from okay to awesome.]
You can find deals.
I just bought a $200 ticket for first class versus $90 for economy. Why? Well, it was a decent deal, but also I can actually work in a first class seat. It’s a pain in economy and I feel like I’m encroaching on my neighbor.
I’ve also purchased lie flat seat upgrades a few times on international flights. One time it was $350 to upgrade. For an 8 hour flight, as someone who can’t sleep in a seated position, this is an easy buy for me.
Basically, if you’re willing to spend but also don’t wanna spend much, there are deals. Most people would never look because they’re never entertaining the idea in the first place.
a reduction in CEO pay doesn't cause savings by direct rebate to customers, and acting like that's the only way that value transfers is true dumbass behavior
a reduction in CEO pay would likely come at a shift in company culture from retaining executives via outsized compensation packages and instead choosing to shift that money into other things such as R&D, customer satisfaction, employee (read: not executive) retention, price competition (something the airlines do not really do), etc.
so yes, if the CEO wasn't getting paid $32M, then likely it would be accompanied by other changes as part of an overall shift of financial management inside the enterprise that could EASILY make flights more affordable for everyday people if delta so wanted.
but yes let's talk about this as if the CEO not getting paid $32M means a 16 cent check in the mail to every customer of delta's in the last year, ignoring the basic reality that several customers flew multiple times (so the check would actually be even smaller, and some amount of the cents would be needed to pay for distribution of these checks)
your math sucks, your take is bad, and you're not worth arguing with because you literally don't know the basics of business or how enterprises work
have a nice day, later
What kind of R&D would an airline be involved in? Customer satisfaction is a nice cause but airline customers are incredibly price sensitive and are more than willing to fly with another airline with even a small price reduction.
Employee rentention is a good thing overall, but companies tend be in a push and pull with the unions (and they’re getting pushed and pulled more and more which I love)
There is no profitability problem.
Revenue: US$58.0b (up 15% from FY 2022). Net income: US$4.61b (up 250% from FY 2022). Profit margin: 7.9% (up from 2.6% in FY 2022). EPS: US$7.21 (up from US$2.07 in FY 2022).
CEO compensation is part of the picture, but not all of it.
But the real braindead take is the capitalism bootlickers responding to you.
This chart is horrendous. Why are the Economy bars not of equal length so we can visualize the relative proportions? Economy is the unit of reference in each of the bar charts, but they are different sized bars on each chart.
Economy seats probably only is taken to let the people split some of the fuel cost. So I guess those of us that fly on economy is lucky to get any service lol.
Until the airlines stop sending planes fully fucking empty across the world solely because “it’s on the schedule”: I don’t want to hear a peep about “profitable” and “unprofitable”.
Categorically false. Most airline fares are based on individual fare “buckets” within certain classes of service. (A travel agent near you can show you the AMADEUS screen with J, C, Y, B, M fares etc.) Each bucket has restrictions such as requiring 2 week advanced booking, minimum Saturday night stay, etc. Full fare First or Coach fares are often without restrictions and are accordingly very expensive. Once an inexpensive fare bucket has sold all seats allocated for that flight then prices move to the next level and are accordingly more expensive. This continues until you’re left with just full fare tickets or the plane sells out (though some airlines do oversell certain flights/fare classes).
It *sounds* like you’re upset at a system that you never bothered to learn about or consider doing so a waste of your time. The Germans would call this “costly fun” (Teueren Spaß). This is your personal problem and not a flaw in the system. I’m more than certain that there are people who buy discounted first class tickets for less than you pay to fly in coach because you can’t be bothered to navigate. Ignorance is a choice.
Your desire to control the price that a business charges you for a good or service requires action on your part. There is no functional economic system on the planet that works the way that you want it to outside of a dictatorship of your own creation where you are the all-powerful tyrant.
Plus, it’s a pretty common system we see everywhere else in life. I go to music festivals, if I buy early after the festival is announced, my ticket is usually cheaper than someone buying a few months before (not including resale). The more demand for something with a limited supply, the higher the cost, economics 101
In a lot of cases if the price was too high, you could choose a competitor no? And if there was no competitor and the prices were too high, it would open up an opportunity for a competitor to fly that route no?
Not really in the airline industry. Many airlines have merged recently and just the logistics of the air travel system means there usually isn’t a choice for a given itinerary
There usually isn’t a choice? Where you flying?
There usually isn’t a cheaper choice than the cheapest flight, because yeah that’s math.
But there usually IS a choice. Maybe it costs more. Maybe it’s a longer layover, or a less convenient time.
But yeah sure, there isn’t a choice that can compete with the cheapest and most convenient option…ok?
I’ve recently flown a good bit and so far this year I’ve flown on Southwest, American, United, Spirit, Alaskan, and Breeze.
I even have two flights currently booked on refundable tickets to FCA, one on United, one on American, because they fly at about the same time and are about the same price so I have options if I get hit by a delay. And that’s to Kalispell Montana, lol
they really should. its so trash. they keep making it smaller to squeeze out profits. the only reason it exists is to torture people into shelling out 2x the ticket price into a humane seating arrangement.
I just think they should board with people who have overhead luggage first, and depart with people who only have carryons first. That’s all I’m asking for
Economy class is basically just better than leaving the plane empty. Nice of those financially better off to subsidize the rest of us so we can travel.
I have a family who's a Pilot. He flew one of the long route to London. He said, no one sit in the first class. Business mostly half or full. Economy might only 25-40% occupancy. The flight itself only available for about a year, after that the airlines took it down because the demand were too small and it was not profitable.
So yeah, FC are costly and not really profitable.
Many don’t realize that a nontrivial amount of first class (especially domestic short haul) is people with airline status getting upgraded. Especially so on sub 3 hour domestic flights - few are paying to sit in front of an E175 from Reno to Denver, but there are always a few Platinum Elite blahblahblah road warriors to bump.
The difference between Economy and Business is huge. A cramped seat and a whole bed. But the difference between business and first is just a bit more space and better food.
THIS IS HOW TAXES WORK for different classes.
The uppermost classes look as if they pay a lot but actually they are being subsidized
The middle class(es) pay the most as a percentage and hence are the biggest consumers
The lowest most class pays the least/not at all because that will borderline kill them/ make it unsustainable.
The middle class(es) fight to keep up this system because they think they will have to share with the lowest most classes when in reality its the top most who will be sharing with everyone.
This isn’t true. Source: worked on advertising accounts for both Delta and United. First Class is generally very profitable, followed by Comfort Plus (Delta business class). Look at the ads, see who they target. Not economy. *maybe this is Spirit or a budget carrier.
I’m flying premium economy / extended leg only and it’s never 2-3x times the price. It’s usually a fixed extra price and something like $140 (covers both ways) on a $600 tickets.
Seat profit is ticket revenue minus expense. Seat expense is total essential flight cost (fuel, wages, etc) divided across the seats by how much space they take up, plus any additional cost for that particular seat type (like 1st class free drinks or additional stewards).
Business is easily the most profitable seats for the airline since corporate clients are price insensitive - "it is company's money". However, it is also a good product because they do want repeat customers. As a result, it is the also the seating which creates 'best' deals for customers. With some planning and flexibility, laypeople should be able to snag a business seat for say 3x the economy price while getting disproportionately better hard product and service.
It’s true. I flew first class from Chicago to LA and the folks in business class got their meals and drinks before FC did.
First class from Chicago to LA? Were you flying a private jet?
Nah. United Airlines. It was a last-minute upgrade for cheap. The seats looked like they’d been in service at least twenty years.
I was on spirit and they upgraded me to the BIG SEATS. It was a last minute only flight I can find and I just moved up there and than kind of lold to myself that they charge 50-75 bucks more for a chair that has 2 extra inches of width. The flight attendant gave me a little captain Morgan shooter for free too. So I decided I have two hours in the air to get smashed and I got smashed
I paid money for that and it was worse, the chair had ZERO recline at all, and I willingly moved back to the regular seats
I'm so confused. United Airlines has a domestic Chicago to LA flight that has both business and first class? What plane is it?
This was back in 2019. It was United 204 from O’Hare to LAX.
Thanks! And just to confirm, it had first, business, economy plus, and economy?
United didn't start reconfiguring the 3-class 777s until 2018, and they didn't take a ton out of service at a time to do so. It is very likely that OP was on one of these pre-Polaris 777-200s in 2019.
TBH, I don’t know about the economy options. From my seat in front I only observed first and business classes…not sure what additional class sections were behind those.
United doesn't have First Class
This was in 2019. [Looks like it still offers UnitedFirst seats for domestic U.S./Canada flights only.](https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/travel/onboard-experience.html#:~:text=For%20travel%20within%20the%20U.S.,bags%20and%20priority%20baggage%20handling.)
There is no business class from Chicago to LA. The infographic is for international flights. Domestically, there is generally only first class, premium economy, and economy. And domestic first class != Intl first class. Intl first class = generally non existent domestically Intl business class = first class domestically where wide bodies are available Intl premium economy= domestic first class
What madness is this? “Price insensitive”. Clearly you’ve never been in charge of *approving* the expenses of corporate people.
No but I have gotten my expenses approved and no has batted an eyelid when I took the direct flight which cost ~$2000 extra instead of a flight with a 2hr layover. With my personal money, I'd have ALWAYS taken the 2hr layover, but when it is company money....
I fly international frequently and on one job we had to be on site every two weeks so it was two weeks on, two weeks off. Brutal but we flew business/first every time. Each trip was about $15k *per person* just for the flights and there was about 5 or 6 of us every trip. This project took about 3 years to complete…. If I’m using my money it’s economy every damn time lol
Quick math: 15k x 5 people = 75k per flight. Every 2 weeks for 3 years = 78 flights. Cost the company 5.85 million just for the air travel! Must have been a big contract.
Indeed it was. And that cost didn’t include the hotel. When they bid these contracts, the mammoth travel cost is added up front. It sounds snobbish to say that I wouldn’t work those programs if I didn’t fly business/first but 14 hours of flight time every two weeks with a 9 hour time change is brutal on your body as it is. Sleep schedule is hell because your body is never used to the time zone it’s in. You miss a ton of time and events with family and kids as well. If we flew economy, everyone would burn out very quickly
So interesting. Can I ask what kind o projects you did and where they were located?
Manufacturing and Asia (I live in the Midwest USA) is all I can say.
Some part of me would like to have that kind of job, but the other knows it has a big toll on personal life.
First handful of times it’s awesome. Then it just turns into work but you don’t get to see your family when you go back to the hotel. That’s why they have to sweeten the pot so much. Business class travel, great hotels, overseas bonus pay, extra PTO and you get to keep all your airline miles so you can use those for personal trips. The turnover would be crazy if the benefits were less All the single guys loved it. If we needed someone to do a three week trip or do a one week turnaround, we’d usually try to get the single guys to do it
Corporate is definitely more price insensitive. For example, my company may put out a guideline that says flights must be economy and any ticket cost above $500 domestic must have special approval. But that’s for staff. For executives and higher ups, they fly business class and accounting has little influence over bookings. If some executive says book me business class, nobody is going to stop them, and nobody is asking about price.
> 3x the economy price while getting disproportionately better hard product and service. I know economy isn't great but I doubt business is actually 3x better.
I’ve flown a fuck ton of business and first and domestic isn’t really a big deal/difference besides drinks and a wider seat. Night and day difference when you’re flying international. Having a seat that lays flat is a game changer
It's at least 3x better, though the issue is since flying is so expensive in general, you have to weigh the price difference against what else you would do with your money. Like... if you are on vacation with your SO, almost certainly the extra $3-5k will result in a more memorable trip going to several nice restaurants, and upgrading to a nicer hotel. Or hell going on a second vacation.
You're totally wrong about that. It's easily worth 5x if not more on long haul routes, which this guide specifies is the market being discussed. Also note that arriving at the destination well-rested gains you a day of vacation, and returning home well-rested can save a day of leave. I recently booked lie flat business from the US east coast to Kuala Lumpur for only 2x the cost of an economy ticket. Almost feels like I'm robbing the airline.
As a layperson 3x is still mad to me. I think of it as putting a $ amount per hour on what I'm having to put up with sitting in economy vs business. I'd have to be pretty damn rich to not think I could spend that money on something that would more than offset it in terms of enjoyment.
Honestly, 3x is stretching it, but the upgrade to Business Class is definitely serious value. I once had the opportunity to upgrade the overnight flight from NY to Europe for 350 USD on Singapore Air, didn’t even have to think about it. Ridiculously good deal. (I‘m traveling internationally semi-regularly for actual business and get to fly Business Class then, so I knew what I was getting.) Obviously, the calculation also shifts a lot the older you get and the more disposable income you have.
I don’t even like being called a layperson. Especially when my seats are too small to lay down in.
Ok sitsman
Better.
I think that's how everything is basically priced. What the corporate business card will pay for on a trip. This goes for hotel rooms, restaurants, bars....
Why would I pay more when I'm getting off in 8 hours max? I used to sit 8 hours at a hard desk at school. I'm a drug dealer I only fly to smuggle.
it’s also dying because of remote work
Thanks now I feel like a roach
A roach that has your travel subsidized
I mean, by revenue/sqft it seems like first class is also subsidized by business and eco+.
I’d just be happy with a flight that leaves and arrives at a humanly hour for a price non-wealthy people can afford.
Instead of a ticket you can always just climb into the luggage compartment with a bunch of blankets 🤷♂️
Probably have more room that way
Maybe don't make us feel like canned sardines too? Maybe? Forget it, I shouldn't have asked. Enjoy your Billions CEO's!
I don’t even mind being a canned sardine if the price was affordable!!
This is the classic case of revealed preference. Customers claim they value comfortable, luxurious flights, but when actually presented with the choice, they’ll usually go for the cheapest possible ticket.
Now why tf isn't there enough luggage space for all the passengers?
There is, if people actually put small items under the seat in front of them. This is of course too much to ask, though. That, and placing suitcases on the narrow sides.
yeah on my flights yesterday people were stuffing their purses and little backpacks in the overheads. then they spend half the flight getting up to fish out their air pods or whatever. brain dead behavior
When there is no foot room except for under the seat in front of you, I can understand this behaviour. Edit: but not condone!!
sure, and I'll even give allowances for people with joint stiffness or other concerns. but these were 737 max 8s and the folks I observed were on the younger side, so I feel safe assuming they were just being foolish
This is why my small item is always a backpack or laptop bag, just shove my feet right under it and lose no space
exactly, I do the same
I assume these were tall people who don’t want to bend down or even have room to reach for their stuffs down by their legs? I’m on the short side so I never really have a problem with air travel and honestly it’s the few time when it’s a positive to be short lol. And Yeah, you look uncomfortable being 6’+ on the flights now, but I’m 100% you wouldn’t trade it for being 5’5” lol.
Nah not especially talk that I observed, though like I said elsewhere if I see a 6'5" dude stowing his bag overhead, I'll cut him some slack. It's def not a hard and fast rule
the space under the seats is a lot smaller now, and there is less leg room to begin with. now that the seats have been made smaller and even less comfortable, people are taking the obvious route of putting their bags elsewhere.
If I've paid to check my case and only have a small laptop backpack for carry on while others bring on these huge fucking hard cases and a couple of other bags as their carry on, you bet your ass I'm putting my backpack up there too. Not my problem they're too much of tightarse to check baggage and I want every millimetre of legroom available.
lol bro the bins are sized for those hard cases and checking bags costs extra. the attendants also explicitly ask you to keep small carryons like laptop bags under your seat. but you do you
Because everyone carries bags on because checking bags costs extra because the airlines are trying to squeeze every nickle out of the passengers.
You can only carry two on...and one goes under a seat soo....
My point is that there would be more passengers who don't carry *any* on if checking a bag didn't cost extra. Back in the day 2 free checked bags was standard.
Right. So if I only carry on one, and it's a back pack, it's going over my head so I can actually stretch my legs.
I'm 6'3". Ain't no leg room a backpack gonna fix. I'd die without an aisle seat.
There is, it’s just that some of it is in the cargo hold.
No way is premium economy 2-3x economy. First class is that much.
First class for international flights can be 10x the cost of economy. Most domestic labeled “first class” is not first class, it’s business. There’s not a separate section for business in those flights.
Domestic First class uses the same types of seats as premium economy on long haul craft.
Damn, what kind of long haul flights are you on? I‘be flown fairly regularly between the states & Europe, as well as Asia & I’ve never encountered these Premium Economy seats. Singapore Airlines was the nicest premium economy I’ve encountered, but it still wasn’t a seat as big as a “first class” seat on a domestic flight.
Could just be the domestic first class were that shitty in comparison. Some spoke to hub connection flights can have pretty tiny first class cabin seats that make international premium economy seats seem massive. Having flown premium economy from Sydney to Dallas and Paris to New York, yeah they’re about the same in terms of space as the first class cabin in flights from my regional airport to the hubs it services.
That makes sense. I do fairly regular trips from PDX to LAX/San Diego & occasionally get bumped up to first on those flights. They’re nothing like long haul first class, but they’re still a step above long haul premium economy.
I’m going to London this weekend from the East Coast US and all the airlines that I could select from had their premium economy essentially the same as domestic first class. (BA, American, and Virgin Atlantic). Big seats, champagne when you board, dedicated lavs for that class, etc. Set up is 2-4-2 since it’s a wide body so I made sure to get a seat on the side so I only have one neighbor.
From Seatguru: a Singapore 350ULR Premium Economy: Pitch 38, Width 19.5 Aa A320 first First: Pitch 36, Width 21 AA 777 premium economy Premium Economy: Pitch 38, Width 19
This: https://thepointsguy.com/reviews/united-premium-economy-europe/ That's roughly the best seats on domestic. The in-between class in domestic is just extra leg room.
Can confirm it is. I looked at a few airlines the last few months for both personal and business travel. Airlines know alot of businesses are dropping business class from their travel policies in favor or premium economy so they are pricing premium economy just below business. I did an analysis on this and found premium economy was about 10% less the cost from business.
That doesn't line up with this then, if we believe the space per seat taken. Because PE takes much less than business, so if it was only 10% less, the revenue per square foot would be massively higher.
All depends on the length of flight. We paid double for a European overnight flight for the extra legroom and bigger seats
Absolutely not.
Premium economy in Europe is slightly different to the US. The seat are bigger (normally 8 across instead of 9, and 38 inch legroom instead of 32). Not sure if any US airlines have done this yet, but in Europe it's been around for a while and when I was working for an airline, it was the most profitable cabin per sq ft. Prices can indeed be 2-3x more (also remember in Europe, a big chunk of ticket price is tax / airport fees, so even if the ticket is 800 vs 500, take off the 200 taxes and for the airline you're looking at 600 vs 300)
Right? Premium is usually like 50 extra bucks.
Premium economy is not “extra leg room” seats and is typically not offered on domestic flights. On long haul flights, premium economy uses different chairs (often in 2-2-2 instead of 3-4-3 layout) with better meals and bigger screens. It’s more than $50 more usually
Way more than $50 more. Can confirm that my PE seats to Europe this week were about 2x economy. The change in comfort and quality of service is worth it for a long haul. Sadly I still am not at business class budget 😓😓
2-2-2 in Premium Eco on planes with 10-abreast in economy? I don’t know of a single airline that does that. 2-2-2 was the standard config for angled lie-flat business seats before staggered 1-2-1 became industry standard. Premium eco is usually 2-3-2 for 8- or 9-abreast eco and 2-4-2 for 10-abreast.
ahhh okay, I was thinking of "comfort plus" or whatever. There are so many categories!
Maybe 10yrs ago
Like 2yrs ago for me. On the last flight I looked at it was 100 extra on a 400-dollar flight.
And that is $50 well spent, every time
I fly United 1/mo for work and upgrade to premium economy. Costs me $65/trip more. Or about 15-20%
100%
This infographic is for international flights.
I never understood why so many people on the internet said they always choose premium economy. Here where I live premium economy is always at least twice the cost of regular economy. Now I understand it, because apparently in some aviation markets premium economy is way less than that. Maybe in such a scenariobI would be willing to fly premium economy as well those few times I fly.
Most posters here are confusing premium economy with Economy + offerings. The latter is specific to domestic US airlines and offers extra legroom in exchange for a slightly higher price ($50-100 more usually).
Australia to Europe is about $1500 Economy, $3500 Premium Economy, $10,000ish Business and god knows how much for First.
Here is how it actually works: Rich people Plebs Ultraplebs Pisspoor plebs with short stumpy legs Plebs with pleblings
It’s silly, but I find that having one kid is actually kinda nice for economy. Yes, I have to buy them a ticket, but what this means is that I am guaranteed to have more space and not be crammed in next to another full size adult, so that’s pretty nice.
The best thing about being in plebling section with a plebling is that you don’t worry about occasionally disturbing your neighbors. Because, well, your neighbors are also traveling with pleblings. The bar is set pretty low
In America there’s no way economy is ever unprofitable. Prices are outrageous to go one city over compared to in Europe.
I've never once been on a plane with a business class. It's always economy, economy plus, and first class
Business and first are effectively the same thing on domestic flights. Some airlines like Delta & United don't even have true first class cabins but just economy, premium economy and business/first. The only US airline offering a true first class cabins on any flight is American and they're slowly but surely eliminating that in favor of an expanded business class cabin
I don’t know the real answer but I have a feeling that the first class on many planes would qualify as business on a larger plane that had like lay flat seats, but since many people flying First on those larger planes will have some regional connecting flight in their itinerary that doesn’t include lay flat the airlines drop the business moniker to make the FC pax feel like they aren’t getting a downgraded service on the connecting flight
International/long haul flights will have all the classes
Conversely I haven't ever been on a flight with first class. It's always been business.
In Europe most planes don’t have first class, just business instead of it
Lmao, I love bar charts without units being called “metrics.” Get this propaganda outta here.
and the units used are not metric!
One first class seat is not taking up 8-10x as much space as an economy seat, as this would have you believe
Look up a true international First class product, and you’ll see the difference between that and the domestic first class you’re thinking of. Singapore Suites on their A380, for example
Absolutely right. These days, domestic "first class" is just premium economy by global standards, even on the nicest domestic airlines. Delta One is the closest thing we get stateside to a true first class like you mentioned, and even that is only used on their transpac and ULH routes. USA-EU flights only offer the business class.
AA offers a true first class on their US transon routes (as well as select international destinations) but even that is going away soon. While Delta One is nice, it’s definitely still a business class product. I’m a big miles and points nut, so have flown a ton of different products around the world. Definitely confusing how US airlines market their different offerings.
Its not just the room. It's the also the work invloved for the employees and products used. First class usually has 1 FA, who is paid more than the others, for 16-20 people on domestic and 3 FAs for around 140+. A second FA also typically helps for some of the flight. Labor difference isnt massive but it adds up. Better snacks, free drinks, free meals, more room. All keeps adding up. Also, a good amount of first class is sold at a discount for corporate accounts as well as non revenue passengers with benefits. Some trans ocianic flights the majority of Delta one passengers dont pay a dime to get in those seats due to flight benefits. On Delta, for example, comfort plus is a good bit more expensive than premium economy but the difference isnt very big. A few inches more leg room and free alcoholic drinks is about it and the vast majority dont partake in the free alcohol. This is all based on what i see as an emoloyee, so its anecdotal, but i dont doubt that this chart is accurate from what i see.
Depends which airline. Singapore airline gives you a whole room, with a seat and a separate bed. Etihad’s The residence is more akin to a hotel room: you have a “living room” with your seat, a private bathroom with shower in the “hallway” and a separate bedroom with a bed.
Upgraded seats feel like such a waste of money to me. First class costs like 10x as much as economy which means you’re probably spending at least $1000 an hour or so extra just for a little more comfort. And you still have to go through the same airports and sit in the same stuffy plane.
Everytime I’m on a 10 hour flight I always think “next time I’m definitely getting first class”. Then I price it later and am like NOPE
Yeah I’m at the point where I’ll pay a little extra to fly direct or minimize layovers, but the price jump between that and first class is just wild
First class passengers on long haul flights typically get lounge access included which means their airport experience is a lot better than everyone else's. They show up, go through security and get to enjoy free food & a mostly open bar until they take off.
Yup. I feel spoiled AF when I fly for work. Shorter lines through TSA, lounge access, priority boarding, lay flat seats, amazing menus. It’s definitely worth it…when someone else is paying for it 😉
I got to fly first class for free once on a long flight. If you have the money it is absolutely worth it. You don’t know until you’ve done it.
Always reminds me of that one Seinfeld joke: [I can’t go back to coach](https://youtu.be/d2JKXbVGq7A?si=ibdKKzq7ykv4PO7y)
Ha! I always say “fudge distribution“ whenever I’m eating a sundae.
That’s how I feel driving a bmw lmao. Always drove hand me downs and beaters. Got a BMW and I can’t go back.
That’s what lifestyle inflation does. Once you drive a car you can’t go back to taking a bus. Once you pay to have someone cut your grass, hard to go back to doing it yourself. Once you start flying first class, going back to economy is really hard.
I flew first class a few months ago on a domestic flight. I needed 2 checked bags which came included with first class. The price difference between a FC ticket and Normal ticket with 2 checked bags was about $50 round trip so I went for it. It included an in-flight meal, free drinks, a more comfortable seat (I’m 6’2” so I get uncomfortable even on short plane rides) and priority boarding. If I didn’t have to check bags, it would have never been a thought. I usually just have a carry on so no point in paying extra.
Domestic first is more akin to international business and isn’t even close to international first with suites, etc. (Note: I don’t have international first class money though so I stick to business class.) I agree though that after baggage fees, the extra perks make domestic first easily worth the extra costs imo. P.s. Next time you fly domestic first be sure to check out the airport lounge too if you didn’t before. A much more comfortable spot to wait for your flight than the terminal plus free drinks & snacks, quality WiFi, and a much better restroom situation. [Depending on airport and airline the lounges range from okay to awesome.]
Yeah but if you’re rich it’s worth it
You can find deals. I just bought a $200 ticket for first class versus $90 for economy. Why? Well, it was a decent deal, but also I can actually work in a first class seat. It’s a pain in economy and I feel like I’m encroaching on my neighbor. I’ve also purchased lie flat seat upgrades a few times on international flights. One time it was $350 to upgrade. For an 8 hour flight, as someone who can’t sleep in a seated position, this is an easy buy for me. Basically, if you’re willing to spend but also don’t wanna spend much, there are deals. Most people would never look because they’re never entertaining the idea in the first place.
Why even have first class then?
Probably to ensure repeat customers (rich people fly all the time)
Most major airlines have gotten rid of it.
First class is not a thing anymore, now there are (in most of the airlines) only business, premium (-economy) and economy.
Delta CEO was paid $32 million in 2023. I know how you can fix the profitability problem.
Delta served more than 190M customers in 2023. If you remove the CEO’s salary entirely every customer would save 16¢ per flight. Braindead take.
Damn. Bro just got hard countered.
assuming the cost savings would be evenly distributed across the entire customer base is the braindead take
How exactly would you distribute $32m across 190m customers that doesn’t make you look like even more of a dumbass?
a reduction in CEO pay doesn't cause savings by direct rebate to customers, and acting like that's the only way that value transfers is true dumbass behavior a reduction in CEO pay would likely come at a shift in company culture from retaining executives via outsized compensation packages and instead choosing to shift that money into other things such as R&D, customer satisfaction, employee (read: not executive) retention, price competition (something the airlines do not really do), etc. so yes, if the CEO wasn't getting paid $32M, then likely it would be accompanied by other changes as part of an overall shift of financial management inside the enterprise that could EASILY make flights more affordable for everyday people if delta so wanted. but yes let's talk about this as if the CEO not getting paid $32M means a 16 cent check in the mail to every customer of delta's in the last year, ignoring the basic reality that several customers flew multiple times (so the check would actually be even smaller, and some amount of the cents would be needed to pay for distribution of these checks) your math sucks, your take is bad, and you're not worth arguing with because you literally don't know the basics of business or how enterprises work have a nice day, later
What kind of R&D would an airline be involved in? Customer satisfaction is a nice cause but airline customers are incredibly price sensitive and are more than willing to fly with another airline with even a small price reduction. Employee rentention is a good thing overall, but companies tend be in a push and pull with the unions (and they’re getting pushed and pulled more and more which I love)
There is no profitability problem. Revenue: US$58.0b (up 15% from FY 2022). Net income: US$4.61b (up 250% from FY 2022). Profit margin: 7.9% (up from 2.6% in FY 2022). EPS: US$7.21 (up from US$2.07 in FY 2022). CEO compensation is part of the picture, but not all of it. But the real braindead take is the capitalism bootlickers responding to you.
This chart is horrendous. Why are the Economy bars not of equal length so we can visualize the relative proportions? Economy is the unit of reference in each of the bar charts, but they are different sized bars on each chart.
Economy seats probably only is taken to let the people split some of the fuel cost. So I guess those of us that fly on economy is lucky to get any service lol.
Some of this seems hard to believe or isn’t showing the entire picture… no way airlines are losing money on any tickets, even economy
My dyslexia made me read it as Airline stealing at first.
Until the airlines stop sending planes fully fucking empty across the world solely because “it’s on the schedule”: I don’t want to hear a peep about “profitable” and “unprofitable”.
I don’t care about their profits. Give us a chart of available legroom.
5. It’s all a scam. All of it. They make up the fucking pricing as they go with a system you’ll never control. Capitalism innovates nothing.
Categorically false. Most airline fares are based on individual fare “buckets” within certain classes of service. (A travel agent near you can show you the AMADEUS screen with J, C, Y, B, M fares etc.) Each bucket has restrictions such as requiring 2 week advanced booking, minimum Saturday night stay, etc. Full fare First or Coach fares are often without restrictions and are accordingly very expensive. Once an inexpensive fare bucket has sold all seats allocated for that flight then prices move to the next level and are accordingly more expensive. This continues until you’re left with just full fare tickets or the plane sells out (though some airlines do oversell certain flights/fare classes). It *sounds* like you’re upset at a system that you never bothered to learn about or consider doing so a waste of your time. The Germans would call this “costly fun” (Teueren Spaß). This is your personal problem and not a flaw in the system. I’m more than certain that there are people who buy discounted first class tickets for less than you pay to fly in coach because you can’t be bothered to navigate. Ignorance is a choice. Your desire to control the price that a business charges you for a good or service requires action on your part. There is no functional economic system on the planet that works the way that you want it to outside of a dictatorship of your own creation where you are the all-powerful tyrant.
Plus, it’s a pretty common system we see everywhere else in life. I go to music festivals, if I buy early after the festival is announced, my ticket is usually cheaper than someone buying a few months before (not including resale). The more demand for something with a limited supply, the higher the cost, economics 101
In a lot of cases if the price was too high, you could choose a competitor no? And if there was no competitor and the prices were too high, it would open up an opportunity for a competitor to fly that route no?
Not really in the airline industry. Many airlines have merged recently and just the logistics of the air travel system means there usually isn’t a choice for a given itinerary
There usually isn’t a choice? Where you flying? There usually isn’t a cheaper choice than the cheapest flight, because yeah that’s math. But there usually IS a choice. Maybe it costs more. Maybe it’s a longer layover, or a less convenient time. But yeah sure, there isn’t a choice that can compete with the cheapest and most convenient option…ok? I’ve recently flown a good bit and so far this year I’ve flown on Southwest, American, United, Spirit, Alaskan, and Breeze. I even have two flights currently booked on refundable tickets to FCA, one on United, one on American, because they fly at about the same time and are about the same price so I have options if I get hit by a delay. And that’s to Kalispell Montana, lol
Downvoted for saying the truth. SMH people really love corporations it seems
“Capitalism innovates nothing” lol ok.
Found the commie. Come in, capitalism innovates nothing?? That is the dumbest thing ever posted on reddit, and that's a hard target.
Wished they dump Economy, so we wouldn’t have all the riff-raff.
they really should. its so trash. they keep making it smaller to squeeze out profits. the only reason it exists is to torture people into shelling out 2x the ticket price into a humane seating arrangement.
The only value we have is what we can spend
Don't forget the cargo underneath.
Where's the source? I'm calling bullshit on First Class not being that profitable.
*southwest airlines screaming noises intensify*
I heard once that most Airlines make the majority of their profit transporting goods, not humans. I can’t prove it though and I could be wrong.
Clearly I am getting a deal paying close to a thousand dollars to fly for 6 hours within Asia since I’m not a profitable customer
That may be how it works on some airlines. Others just treat everyone like the same pieces of shit they are.
Meanwhile I’m so poor I can’t even afford to fly on airlines that have multiple classes.
I never even see first class anymore, business class is billed as “first class”
On domestic flights yes. Long haul/international flights will have separate first/business/PE/Economy
I’m calling bs on first class. The first class tickets I’ve seen recently are like 10 times more expensive than economy
I just think they should board with people who have overhead luggage first, and depart with people who only have carryons first. That’s all I’m asking for
Is there a source for this? Some of this does not seem correct.
Economy class is basically just better than leaving the plane empty. Nice of those financially better off to subsidize the rest of us so we can travel.
Our company ONLY allows us to fly economy. Sucks to be the airlines!
Paying for first class is funny, like we’re all going to the same place.
Business class is the most profitable seats, but cargo is the REAL moneymaker for airlines
I have a family who's a Pilot. He flew one of the long route to London. He said, no one sit in the first class. Business mostly half or full. Economy might only 25-40% occupancy. The flight itself only available for about a year, after that the airlines took it down because the demand were too small and it was not profitable. So yeah, FC are costly and not really profitable.
I’ve never seen a plane back into a mountain before I’ll take economy
Why do they even offer economy if it’s unprofitable
Many don’t realize that a nontrivial amount of first class (especially domestic short haul) is people with airline status getting upgraded. Especially so on sub 3 hour domestic flights - few are paying to sit in front of an E175 from Reno to Denver, but there are always a few Platinum Elite blahblahblah road warriors to bump.
T.
Finnair only has business and economy
I haven’t seen first class on a plane in a while. It’s always business > premium > economy.
They’re usually only on international flights
The difference between Economy and Business is huge. A cramped seat and a whole bed. But the difference between business and first is just a bit more space and better food.
Is it just me, but in many Airlines there's only economy seats nowadays?
Correct me if im wrong but would economy not be the safest in the event of a crash?
In an air crash the number of safe seats is zero
Yes i know but ive heard the back is alittle safer, ofc no seats r safe lol
What airlines? Surely not all, the ones I use don’t even have first or business class lol, all seats are similar
I'm about to book tickets online for the first time. This seems to help me. Thanks!
THIS IS HOW TAXES WORK for different classes. The uppermost classes look as if they pay a lot but actually they are being subsidized The middle class(es) pay the most as a percentage and hence are the biggest consumers The lowest most class pays the least/not at all because that will borderline kill them/ make it unsustainable. The middle class(es) fight to keep up this system because they think they will have to share with the lowest most classes when in reality its the top most who will be sharing with everyone.
ITT: Americans having no idea how airline classes work for rest of the world.
Just stop….. not profitable…. Ick
First Class is the bargain.
This isn’t true. Source: worked on advertising accounts for both Delta and United. First Class is generally very profitable, followed by Comfort Plus (Delta business class). Look at the ads, see who they target. Not economy. *maybe this is Spirit or a budget carrier.
which seat is best to survive plane crash ? i'lll take the nose bleeds.
I’m flying premium economy / extended leg only and it’s never 2-3x times the price. It’s usually a fixed extra price and something like $140 (covers both ways) on a $600 tickets.
There’s no way you can break down which section is profitable or non profitable like that.
Why not? Seems like pretty basic math.
Show me your workings?
Seat profit is ticket revenue minus expense. Seat expense is total essential flight cost (fuel, wages, etc) divided across the seats by how much space they take up, plus any additional cost for that particular seat type (like 1st class free drinks or additional stewards).
You’re right and I’m talking g nonsense.