The government can’t do those things and continue to exist and whoever goes to the bargaining table knows this. That makes this a bad-faith offer. When you tell your negotiating partner you’ll do something if they destroy themselves you are not negotiating.
Such bad-faith offers may have constructive roles in communication between countries. But framing them as serious offers is either stupid or intentionally misconstruing the situation to mislead people who are too naive to pick up on the dynamic.
This is not aligned with the concept of sovereignty. A compromise is fine, Cuba has been thawing its economic policy for over a decade. The truth is, there is nothing the government can do short of suicide, and even then - what's the guarantee that things change for every day Cuban.
It’s not their feelings. Its that if you want to make progress in negotiations you have to make offers that the other side can accept without destroying itself. Dictatorial governments are fragile in certain ways and cant make sudden changes in terms of liberalization and survive - the US knows it couldn’t sustain these changes so these are not serious offers.
Incrementalism is the way. They change this smaller thing, you give them this smaller benefit and eventually you end up voluntarily influencing them in the direction of better relations and liberalization. It was slowly working until Trump decided to strike out against Cuba apropos of no change in behavior by the Cubans.
It was low-hanging political fruit for Trump at the expense of US interests.
Opposition parties can not only survive but thrive in a democracy. Just look at Colombia recently. Watch this, you'll get it: https://youtu.be/dckt3ywihco
Exactly! Didn't you just elect a murdering communist that will destroy the country with leftist policies as president? Watch the video, it describes a lot of what's happening in Colombia right now.
While many people may hold that opinion, it's still a democracy with checks and balances and not much has actually changed + dude will get voted out in the next election in 3 years.
What any of this has to do w a country like Cuba idk?
*Edit* just realized you are the OP and making this point to the commie kids
I hope the point you're trying to make is having multiple parties and elections is healthy and the communist party can still exist and be an option in a truly free election and let the people decide what they want every 4 years
Yeah, like I am going to click your virus-infected links you use as retribution for anybody who has the audacity to disagree with your 24/7 shower of idiotic trolls.
Billions of dollars in funding for the infrastructure that Russia and China couldn’t lift up in 65 years. A path to normalization of relations with the biggest economy in the hemisphere. You know, the usual stuff that the Cuban dictatorship has been bitching about since forever
The problem is that the Cubans in Miami and the US is going to want to restore the crony capitalism and the dictatorship that were there before the revolution. I do believe a compromise could be reached but it must enshrine the progress that the Cuba people have like Free Education, Universal Healthcare, a safety net for the poor, and equal rights for Cubans of all color. And there will be no reparations for the lands and moneys that were seized.
Why is imposing capitalism part of human rights? Seems like a weird stretch considering the righteousness of many of these points. Perhaps there are ulterior economic motives.
Nah, you’re making a huge overestimation mistake about the relevance of Cuba and cubans to the world. Cuba is not China, Cuba is not South Korea, Cuba is not Ukraine, Cuba is not Israel. A capitalist democratic Cuba would be more like a Dominican Republic, Haiti, Jamaica, the Bahamas, and certainly less relevant to the US than Puerto Rico/Puerto Ricans.
Lmao, this is the best you got?
Btw, you do know there’s a large section of people who check out this sub to make fun of the stupid stuff like this?
Do you have any self awareness?
I can also show you a random, cherrypicked Youtube video of modern-day Cuba: [https://youtu.be/TpU0-dUt5j0?t=19](https://youtu.be/TpU0-dUt5j0?t=19) How is that any source though? How old are you man? 12?
Cuba has almost the same GDP (PPP) per capita as Mexico and is one of the Top 5 wealthiest nations in the Caribbean despite an economic embargo imposed upon them for decades.
Because the North has been sanctioned into oblivion since decades and the South received extensive financial and military aid from the largest economy in the world
Truth is they don't care about the Cuban people at all, if they did they would pressing for these, their only concern is that the totalitarian dictatorship remains in power.
Arbitrary pre-conditions. The same arbitrary pre-conditions were not asked of other repressive dictatorships such as China, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, etc. Therefore the same should not be asked of Cuba. That would be double standard and hypocrisy.
The conservative Cuban exile community wants special/preferential treatment for Cuba. The conservative Cubans are a small insignificant minority compared to the vast majority of people who support diplomacy and normalization between the U.S. and Cuba. You are outnumbered ideologically.
Don’t shoot the messenger, I’m just telling you the reality.
Ad populum fallacy. Also, none of those dictatorships are within 90 miles of the US, spying, supporting anti american terrorism and siding with rogue states like Iran, and starving their people
It is not ad populum fallacy. Ad populum fallacy means “a claim that something is true simply because that's what a large number of people believe.”
I am not saying that anything is true because that is what a large number of people believe. What I am telling you is that public opinion virtually influences policy and decision making. Examples of this are the Elian Gonzalez situation of 2000, the Cuban thaw of 2015-2016, and the recent normalization of the last 2 years. So, nothing to do with something being true or not true.
As for the 90 miles away argument, that is also not true. If that were true, then during the 50s the U.S. would’ve been doing the same thing against Cuba that it is doing NOW against Cuba, but precisely the opposite, the U.S. did not do to Cuba in the 50s what they’re doing now to it, and back then they had a repressive military dictatorship.
Ohhhh, but I get what your viewpoint is now… “There was a repressive military dictatorship in Cuba during the 50s, but they were protecting US interests!” Okay, thank you, so I guess your viewpoint is “it’s okay to have a dictatorship in Cuba, as long as it serves to protect US interests.” ¿Is that your viewpoint? If I predicted your viewpoint/mindset incorrectly, then please go ahead and correct me.
Exactly! “a claim that something is true simply because that's what a large number of people believe.” You are claiming that because there are many dictatorship useful idiots in this sub I'm outnumbered LOL. What about the interests of the Cuban people? Did you even read the original post? Why can't they vote and decide what they want? Be it the same regime they have now or a Free Markets successful one or whatever it is they decide!
That’s my point. The interests of the Chinese people or interests of Saudi Arabians or interests of Vietnamese people did not matter when the U.S. was establishing normalization and diplomacy with their dictatorships, well then the same thing should not be expected of Cuba.
That is called a double standard, hypocrisy. Do the same thing with Cuba that was done with other countries. Most people are intelligent enough to realize that it is better to have a frenemy than have a full enemy.
You keep confusing the interests of the dictatorships with the interests of the people. Why don't you want Cubans to be able to select their own government?
I do want that. I would have preferred that in 1952 no coup would’ve happen and let the Cuban people have chosen the Orthodox Party to lead the country. But that ended up not happening. Batista starting the military dictatorship was the last straw for Cubans. The revolution was a direct consequence of Batista and the U.S. actions.
So we have to deal with Cuba in the present day, today, 2023. U.S. foreign policy with Cuba has caused Cuba to be in the state it is today. So now all that is left for the U.S. to do is to establish diplomacy and normalization with Cuba. Cuba does not get to receive special/preferential treatment that other dictatorship were not given. Again, that is hypocrisy and double standard. The point is, it is not necessary for a dictatorship to complete all of your arbitrary preconditions that you wrote in your post BEFORE the U.S. establishes relations with a dictatorship. They are empty words.
So the only solution is diplomacy. If the conservative Cuban exile community does not want diplomacy, then you are free to form a paramilitary group, get a few yachts armed with weapons, 82 volunteer exile soldiers per boat, and go to Cuba and fight to bring down that horrible dictatorship that is causing SO MUCH misery and destruction for all Cubans on the island. But you people don’t do that, you are sitting in your ass in Miami waiting for the U.S. government to fix your problem for you. So take your pick, diplomacy OR armed insurrection (without US assistance). There is no other option.
You seem like an extremist terrorist or maybe even a planted cuban agent calling for unneeded violence like that. The exile community is very comfortable enjoying their lives in the wonders and wealth of Capitalism, nobody is going to go risk their nice lives for a bunch of carneros in the island LOL. Keep dreaming... The single guy in the jet sky is either a crazy violent person (like you seem to be) or a cuban government agent. Again, why can't Cubans decide their own government in free and fair elections? For all we know most cubans still have a socialist dependent mentality, most opposition is light socialist too. They could even decide to stick to impoverishing socialism, just asking for a few more items in the rationing card.
I am not calling for violence. I said there was 2 OPTIONS. My preferred option is diplomacy. That is the hill I am choosing to die on. It’s the Cuban conservative exile community who want war and constantly call for “intervención militar” and other things like that.
Again you ask “why can’t Cubans decide their own government in free and fair elections?”
And again I respond, Why didn’t the Chinese or the Vietnamese or Saudi Arabians decide their government in free and fair elections? Why didn’t Ronald Reagan or Richard Nixon ask Mao Zedong and the other Chinese communists to hold fair elections and liberate political prisoners? Same thing with the other dictatorships I mentioned.
That is all I am saying. My position is the moderate position. I do not want Cuba to receive special treatment, because that would be double standard and hypocrisy. I want the same thing for Cuba that the other dictatorships got. The U.S. put Cuba in the position it is in now, so the US cannot be asking for arbitrary pre-conditions now.
No no no. u/Burger_Mission kicks your sorry ass every time and leaves you crying in fetal position like a little girl. Your 8 year old intellect is unable to cope.
When the people said enough is enough and on July 11 millions they came out to the streets in Cuba asking for the end of the communist regime they were oppressed a few days later almost a hundred thousand Cubans came to the US capital we aren’t a small minority in fact we grow larger every year
Yes, and during the 1950s there was also a dictatorship and people who went out on the streets to protest would get beaten and harassed by police too, in addition to being tortured and killed in public executions like lynchings, ambushes, etc.
But the Cuban people back then pushed through and defeated that government. Why? Because it was a majority of people against the government and it overwhelmed Batista’s forces (SIM agents, police, chivatos, etc.).
The only solution for Cuba is for the U.S. to establish diplomacy and normalization. The only other option is the conservative Cuban exile community does an armed insurrection/invasion and guerrilla warfare, but we all know the conservative Miami Cubans are too cowardly to do that😂😂😂So until then, diplomacy is the only option.
You clearly have not live for more than a decade in the real Cuba so im going to cut you some slack my great grandfather was born in 1929 in a small town in Cuba and he didn’t know anything about politics he and his father fished in a little river in our town and with the fish they caught they were able to buy the supplies for the whole month when he grew older he went to work at a private local butcher shop and he told he and his family ate beef pork and horse meat every day they were poor but he and his family didn’t have to watch their children go to bed with empty stomachs like they do now because the current dictatorship is 100 times worst than the last my when he was 87 I asked him Yayo you’ve lived a significant amount of time in both dictatorships which one do you feel and he said well I don’t know but now I can only eat a small piece of beef when my son who lives in the US sends me for and it’s not even that easy to get so
What you just vomited has nothing to do with the topic of the conversation. The OP is talking about pre-conditions for the Cuban government to do so that the embargo is removed.
I am explaining that those pre-conditions are arbitrary. When the U.S. established relations and diplomacy with other horrible repressive dictatorships like China, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, etc. THERE WERE NO arbitrary pre-conditions asked of them BEFORE establishing those relations. Ronald Reagan didn’t go to communist China in 1984 and shake hands with the communist dictators and tell them “Hey guys, please release political prisoners, hold free elections, and some other things, then we can have normalized relations.”
Nixon also didn’t tell that to MAO ZEDONG when he shook his hand in the 1970s, and Mao Zedong did much worse to China than Fidel, Che, and Batista COMBINED and multiplied by 500. Same thing for Vietnam which killed hundreds of thousands of American soldiers.
So again, you fail to explain why Cuba deserves special treatment that no other country received. It is called double standard, hypocrisy.
Because Fidel Castro and the regime stole all American properties in Cuba after 59 because all of those dictatorships are thousands of miles away because Cuba serves as a proxy for the enemy’s of the US because the border is flooded with Cubans some of which are spy’s and because they need our votes and the majority of us want a free Cuba and we care about the 1000 political prisoner who are being imprisoned and tortured without end Thats why
“1000 political prisoners imprisoned and tortured”. Okay, same with China, Vietnam, Saudi Arabia, etc.
“Country is flooded with Cubans some of which are spies” okay, same with those other countries I mentioned, also the U.S. probably has more spies in foreign countries than any other country in the world.
“Because all of those dictatorships are thousands of miles away” Incorrect. If that were the case, then the U.S. would’ve done the same stuff it’s doing to Cuba now, it would’ve done the same thing to the previous dictatorship under Batista, but they didn’t do it. So you are basically arguing “It’s okay to have a dictatorship in Cuba, as long as they support US interests!”
“Because Castro and the regime stole American properties after 1959.” Incorrect. The nationalizations happened in the summer of 1960 ONLY AFTER in Spring of 1960 the U.S. government backed Cuba into a corner and unilaterally provoked Cuba by cutting off oil exports going to the island. You are demonstrating that you severely misunderstand Cuban history and you misunderstand what happened with the nationalized oil refineries.
Hey I’m not going to keep wasting my time trying to explain what you have clearly have not had to suffer through because first of all removing the embargo which is part of argument would not affect at all the way the Cubans live right now because almost all the chicken they buy comes from here have you seen Chevy Camaro brand new teslas Cadillacs brand new sports cars all around Cuba the embargo is a joke and everyone knows it and as Far as your “Unilaterally provoked Cuba” I’ve heard that bullshit excuse before that fact is and still remains that after 1963 no American and no Cuban citizen held any property in Cuban everything was stolen at the point of gun many Cubans who own private business had to flee the island or they were killed or imprisoned an as far as “unprovoked”the Cuban missil crisis proves that Castro was already in bed with the Soviet Union long before that so they did prove to be a threat unlike Batista so I don’t know what kind of bullshit history you have learned your probably not even Cuban and if you are I don’t know what kind of rock have you been living under because the fact is Cuba is a Cancer the Communist regime is a parasite feeding on those who send money to Cuba so there families won’t starve you feel no shame spreading misinformation playing with the truth of those who suffer if you were in Miami I would invite you to a boxing ring but of course you wouldn’t dare do it because people like you have to honor
LMAO. I am living in Miami, and no I do not want to box anyone, I am not a crazy lunatic. I would rather debate our ideas in a healthy civilized debate.
You mention the chicken Cuba gets from the U.S. That is true. However, as you very well know, Cuba has to buy everything using CASH, precisely because of the embargo and sanctions. Every other country in the world is able to use CREDIT. So yes, Cuba can buy “chicken” and stuff from Cuba, but as to use CASH, so it is very limited.
You then mention the unilaterally provoke Cuba thing. This is true. In May 1960 if I remember correctly, the United States cut off all petroleum exports to Cuba. In other words, Cuba was left with no petroleum to run their country. That is when the USSR (Soviet Unions) offered Cuba petroleum, since now the U.S. wasn’t giving Cuba petroleum. Cuba, without no other choice, accepted the Soviet petroleum. Cuba received the Soviet petroleum and took it to the AMERICAN private oil refineries on the island and asked them to refine the oil. The oil refineries were 100% WILLING to refine the petroleum, but the U.S. government forced them against their own will to not refine the petroleum for the Cuban government. That is when the refineries refused to refine the oil, and THAT is when Cuba nationalized the American companies in Cuba.
So yes, the U.S. unilaterally provoked Cuba and backed them into a corner until they had no other choice but to nationalized the private companies and ally with the Soviet Union.
You then mention the Cuban missile crisis. And that crisis was caused by the United States. It was the United States that had missiles in Italy and Turkey pointing towards the USSR FIRST. Then, after some time, the USSR put missiles in Cuba SECOND. When the USA found the missiles in Cuba, that is when the Cuban missile crisis happened in 1962, and the leaders of both the U.S. and the USSR got together and came to an agreement to each remove their missiles from the three places (Italy, Turkey, and Cuba). Cuba had no say in this, they were merely used by the Soviets, again because Cuba was pushed into Soviet hands by the USA.
So today you are completely projecting your personality on others. Still devastated by the humongous reddit bad karma tsunami you suffered yesterday on r/cuba LOL
LOL! You mean my highly successful post about ending dumb handouts and the poor dependent mentality in Cuba. Many thousands of people read it! Their minds changed forever.
Only the most extreme of useful idiots believe the sham "elections" the regime organizes in which the same, only allowed party, has remained in power for almost 70 years.
So a two-party system like America that is controlled by corporate interests over the interests of the ppl in the solution to Cuba. Nice. Why not support the continuation of the original ideas of the revolution. Reform not surrender to corporate capitalism.
They are very smart to restrict elections to party members. It makes it much more difficult for your buddies at the CIA to interfere in their elections.
I gotta say i appreciate your mask off support of imperialism. You dont make the cowardly and nonsensical argument that the blockade is toothless, you think its good the most powerful military hegemon in history is collectively punishing a tiny impoverished nation for not towing the imperial line.
It is a legitimately smart move for cuba to take steps to insulate itself from the meddling of the US who try to invade their country, to assassinate their leaders, to fund terrorism and economic sabotage. It is the only reason they have survived this long. Thank you for giving me further reason to wholeheartedly support the democratic will of rational Americans: end the damn blockade.
Yes, their tentacles are all over Latin America, The Caribbean, Africa and in USA espionage! And since we are wishing for the end of imperialism let's not forget about China and Russia!
They run many hundreds of illegal prison/torture factory on Cuban soil. Why don't you protest these? https://cubaverdad.net/list\_prisons\_in\_cuba.htm
Says the guy who wants democracy and free speech for Cuba. This Hypocrite wants to be a dictator in this unmoderated Sub to censor the voices and messages that makes him uncomfortable and to continue trolling the r/cuba users with impunity. Just like the Adrian of r/RealCuba.
Gets really complicated when we factor in the Desire for a Sovereign democratic Nation free of foreign domination.For the record " Cuban Style " Socialism is as mideval as was Europe under the Yolk of the Popes ...
Hilarious because “free” elections don’t exist. How come in the America you never see a candidate that is truly for the people ever come in power ? Democracy is an illusion in the USA and for some reason you think democracy would work in Cuba.
The Cuban people sacrificed so much to free itself from Batista and the mafia and you want to let them right back in
Free elections in Cuba, a communist country? Your mental-straws are getting more and more delusional by the minute. Thank you for the entertainment LOL
Your repetitive 24/7 posts are nothing but idiotic meme trolls. For too long you have been harassing this Sub, disseminating misinformation, insulting any Sub users who dare disagree with your extreme political propaganda, posting low quality content and behaving like the epic official Sub clown you are. If any Sub user should be banned, that would be you. Of course, unless you and the Sub moderatos are the same person, which a valid point considering the unprecedented impunity you’ve been given to do damage to this Sub and its users.
Well it’ll work if they weren’t dumb, an example is in a “ZOMBIE” book, in WWZ by Max Brooks there’s a great example about how Cuba can change without a “revolution”
Russia/the Russian Soviet Republic did pretty much all of this in 1991.
The effect of this was a selling out of pretty much al businesses and an insane decline in living standards and life expectancy.
Now Vietnam and China did have market reforms (which i think, the cuban people would massively benefit from as well), but what they didn't do, is abandon their party's grip on power. The effect of this was that the living standards, material wealth and life expectancy of the vietnamese and the chinese people increased greatly, while at the same time, they stay sovereign and aren't under someone's boot (like Cuba would be after "free and fair" elections).
Much like the people living in the eastern bloc, it seems to be the case for many cubans that they think they'll keep things like universal healthcare, very low crime, etc. while getting much wealthier at the same time. This will not be the case.
Edit: Economic reforms are pretty much on their way in Cuba, btw. So one can expect things to get better rather soon.
Why don't you let the cuban people decide what they want through free and fair elections? They could very well decide to keep themselves under the poverty of socialism. In fact most people in Cuba still have a socialist dependent mentality and the opposition is mostly light socialist
They cubans in the island are the ones to decide the future of their nation, not the hypocrites traitors (like you) who cowardly ran away and abandoned their homeland and their people. So stop talking shit, you too abandoned your country, an epic act of betrayal. Despicable!
Right 65 years with the same impoverishing obsolete party in power LOL. Only the most extreme of useful idiots believe in that sham. My government abandoned me and 11 million other cubans, not the other way around.
It is not your government. You ran away like rats and abandoned what at one point was your homeland. The traitors like you, who abandoned ship, have no say in the future on Cuba. Despicable.
If you truly believe your own crap why aren't you living in Cuba like a regular Cuban? Where do you live? I bet a million dollars it's a capitalist country! Doesn't that make a huge hypocrite and traitor?
You are just mad because I uncovered you as a paid shill of the Cuban goverment LOL. Did you know every dollar they are paying you is one dollar they take from a starving cuban?
The government can’t do those things and continue to exist and whoever goes to the bargaining table knows this. That makes this a bad-faith offer. When you tell your negotiating partner you’ll do something if they destroy themselves you are not negotiating. Such bad-faith offers may have constructive roles in communication between countries. But framing them as serious offers is either stupid or intentionally misconstruing the situation to mislead people who are too naive to pick up on the dynamic.
Yes it can survive and even thrive in democracy, your false dichotomy is born from ignorance. Watch this: https://youtu.be/dckt3ywihco
Can you think of a regime as tight as Cubas that suddenly did these things and stayed in power?
Did you watch the video?
He wants to make sure you clicked his virus infected link and got your computer infected. These are the things this psycho lives for.
It"s a Youtube link you ignoramus LOL
Yeah right.
It might hack your two neurons though LOL
This is not aligned with the concept of sovereignty. A compromise is fine, Cuba has been thawing its economic policy for over a decade. The truth is, there is nothing the government can do short of suicide, and even then - what's the guarantee that things change for every day Cuban.
A "complromise" is not fucking "fine" and yes, the Cuban government should absolutely do that, non-figuratively
Yes, why would they want to give up their autocratic control of a country. Dictatorships have feelings too :(
It’s not their feelings. Its that if you want to make progress in negotiations you have to make offers that the other side can accept without destroying itself. Dictatorial governments are fragile in certain ways and cant make sudden changes in terms of liberalization and survive - the US knows it couldn’t sustain these changes so these are not serious offers. Incrementalism is the way. They change this smaller thing, you give them this smaller benefit and eventually you end up voluntarily influencing them in the direction of better relations and liberalization. It was slowly working until Trump decided to strike out against Cuba apropos of no change in behavior by the Cubans. It was low-hanging political fruit for Trump at the expense of US interests.
Figured you were one of the commie kids, that's very rational and fair.
Opposition parties can not only survive but thrive in a democracy. Just look at Colombia recently. Watch this, you'll get it: https://youtu.be/dckt3ywihco
I live in Colombia. Can't imagine the mental gymnastics this video would have to do to draw any parallel to Cuba.
Exactly! Didn't you just elect a murdering communist that will destroy the country with leftist policies as president? Watch the video, it describes a lot of what's happening in Colombia right now.
While many people may hold that opinion, it's still a democracy with checks and balances and not much has actually changed + dude will get voted out in the next election in 3 years. What any of this has to do w a country like Cuba idk? *Edit* just realized you are the OP and making this point to the commie kids
You don't know... Try thinking a tiny bit harder..
I hope the point you're trying to make is having multiple parties and elections is healthy and the communist party can still exist and be an option in a truly free election and let the people decide what they want every 4 years
Hallelujah!
Democracy is not suicide, on the contrary it brings stability and wealth, even to members of the old guard. Watch: https://youtu.be/dckt3ywihco
Sovereignty concept for the useful idiots: The dictatorship has the right to oppress their people as much as they f want and no one can intervene.
A compromise requires that both sides give something. What is the US giving other than ending their embargo?
Hundreds of billions in Capital investments that will fix all the misery if there's rule of law in the future
Now these delusional fantasies of yours are just mental-straws LOL
Just the cuban community has the investment power to rebuild Cuba many times over, not counting american investors
HAHAHAHAHA They should start by rebuilding Hialeah and Miami. Once again you are totally out of touch with reality LOL
You are so clueless LOL https://robbreport.com/lifestyle/finance/ken-griffin-miami-financial-center-1235417104/
Yeah, like I am going to click your virus-infected links you use as retribution for anybody who has the audacity to disagree with your 24/7 shower of idiotic trolls.
It's a link to news about Miami becoming the next main financial center of the world. LOL
Mental straws
Billions of dollars in funding for the infrastructure that Russia and China couldn’t lift up in 65 years. A path to normalization of relations with the biggest economy in the hemisphere. You know, the usual stuff that the Cuban dictatorship has been bitching about since forever
The problem is that the Cubans in Miami and the US is going to want to restore the crony capitalism and the dictatorship that were there before the revolution. I do believe a compromise could be reached but it must enshrine the progress that the Cuba people have like Free Education, Universal Healthcare, a safety net for the poor, and equal rights for Cubans of all color. And there will be no reparations for the lands and moneys that were seized.
Why is imposing capitalism part of human rights? Seems like a weird stretch considering the righteousness of many of these points. Perhaps there are ulterior economic motives.
Ulterior economic motives like bringing sustainable amazing Capitalist wealth to millions of starving people. Ohhh the horror! Screams in leftist! LOL
Nah, you’re making a huge overestimation mistake about the relevance of Cuba and cubans to the world. Cuba is not China, Cuba is not South Korea, Cuba is not Ukraine, Cuba is not Israel. A capitalist democratic Cuba would be more like a Dominican Republic, Haiti, Jamaica, the Bahamas, and certainly less relevant to the US than Puerto Rico/Puerto Ricans.
History is a bitch LOL https://youtu.be/MSvav2beSNg Also all those countries are miles ahead of Cuba, except Haiti, a dictatorship run by gangs
Hahahahahaha
Lmao, this is the best you got? Btw, you do know there’s a large section of people who check out this sub to make fun of the stupid stuff like this? Do you have any self awareness?
We laugh at useful idiots all the time
I can also show you a random, cherrypicked Youtube video of modern-day Cuba: [https://youtu.be/TpU0-dUt5j0?t=19](https://youtu.be/TpU0-dUt5j0?t=19) How is that any source though? How old are you man? 12? Cuba has almost the same GDP (PPP) per capita as Mexico and is one of the Top 5 wealthiest nations in the Caribbean despite an economic embargo imposed upon them for decades.
Only if you believe dictatorship stats LOL. No independent organizations or press is allowed in.
Yes but what about the downside? Do you see one.My concern are the Corporate Vulture circling overhead.
They already have that. It's called Gaesa, a state monopoly with zero competition.
Perhaps research how South Koreans live versus North Korean citizens. And why is there such an enormous gap?
Because the North has been sanctioned into oblivion since decades and the South received extensive financial and military aid from the largest economy in the world
Almost like these sanctions and embargo’s are a form of warfare against countries that don’t open themselves up to American exploitation…
The complete and total failure of the NK and Cuban dictatorships are the fault of the US?? Okay comrade, LOL!
You are aware that states do not exist in a vacuum, right?
Is this the part where you tell me something about an echo chamber that I am in, whatever the fuck that is....?
The dumb low IQ Koreans lived in the North.
Neo-liberal motives. Except for the Cubans, nobody has the most sincere interest in Cuba.
Truth is they don't care about the Cuban people at all, if they did they would pressing for these, their only concern is that the totalitarian dictatorship remains in power.
Arbitrary pre-conditions. The same arbitrary pre-conditions were not asked of other repressive dictatorships such as China, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, etc. Therefore the same should not be asked of Cuba. That would be double standard and hypocrisy. The conservative Cuban exile community wants special/preferential treatment for Cuba. The conservative Cubans are a small insignificant minority compared to the vast majority of people who support diplomacy and normalization between the U.S. and Cuba. You are outnumbered ideologically. Don’t shoot the messenger, I’m just telling you the reality.
Ad populum fallacy. Also, none of those dictatorships are within 90 miles of the US, spying, supporting anti american terrorism and siding with rogue states like Iran, and starving their people
It is not ad populum fallacy. Ad populum fallacy means “a claim that something is true simply because that's what a large number of people believe.” I am not saying that anything is true because that is what a large number of people believe. What I am telling you is that public opinion virtually influences policy and decision making. Examples of this are the Elian Gonzalez situation of 2000, the Cuban thaw of 2015-2016, and the recent normalization of the last 2 years. So, nothing to do with something being true or not true. As for the 90 miles away argument, that is also not true. If that were true, then during the 50s the U.S. would’ve been doing the same thing against Cuba that it is doing NOW against Cuba, but precisely the opposite, the U.S. did not do to Cuba in the 50s what they’re doing now to it, and back then they had a repressive military dictatorship. Ohhhh, but I get what your viewpoint is now… “There was a repressive military dictatorship in Cuba during the 50s, but they were protecting US interests!” Okay, thank you, so I guess your viewpoint is “it’s okay to have a dictatorship in Cuba, as long as it serves to protect US interests.” ¿Is that your viewpoint? If I predicted your viewpoint/mindset incorrectly, then please go ahead and correct me.
Exactly! “a claim that something is true simply because that's what a large number of people believe.” You are claiming that because there are many dictatorship useful idiots in this sub I'm outnumbered LOL. What about the interests of the Cuban people? Did you even read the original post? Why can't they vote and decide what they want? Be it the same regime they have now or a Free Markets successful one or whatever it is they decide!
That’s my point. The interests of the Chinese people or interests of Saudi Arabians or interests of Vietnamese people did not matter when the U.S. was establishing normalization and diplomacy with their dictatorships, well then the same thing should not be expected of Cuba. That is called a double standard, hypocrisy. Do the same thing with Cuba that was done with other countries. Most people are intelligent enough to realize that it is better to have a frenemy than have a full enemy.
You keep confusing the interests of the dictatorships with the interests of the people. Why don't you want Cubans to be able to select their own government?
I do want that. I would have preferred that in 1952 no coup would’ve happen and let the Cuban people have chosen the Orthodox Party to lead the country. But that ended up not happening. Batista starting the military dictatorship was the last straw for Cubans. The revolution was a direct consequence of Batista and the U.S. actions. So we have to deal with Cuba in the present day, today, 2023. U.S. foreign policy with Cuba has caused Cuba to be in the state it is today. So now all that is left for the U.S. to do is to establish diplomacy and normalization with Cuba. Cuba does not get to receive special/preferential treatment that other dictatorship were not given. Again, that is hypocrisy and double standard. The point is, it is not necessary for a dictatorship to complete all of your arbitrary preconditions that you wrote in your post BEFORE the U.S. establishes relations with a dictatorship. They are empty words. So the only solution is diplomacy. If the conservative Cuban exile community does not want diplomacy, then you are free to form a paramilitary group, get a few yachts armed with weapons, 82 volunteer exile soldiers per boat, and go to Cuba and fight to bring down that horrible dictatorship that is causing SO MUCH misery and destruction for all Cubans on the island. But you people don’t do that, you are sitting in your ass in Miami waiting for the U.S. government to fix your problem for you. So take your pick, diplomacy OR armed insurrection (without US assistance). There is no other option.
You seem like an extremist terrorist or maybe even a planted cuban agent calling for unneeded violence like that. The exile community is very comfortable enjoying their lives in the wonders and wealth of Capitalism, nobody is going to go risk their nice lives for a bunch of carneros in the island LOL. Keep dreaming... The single guy in the jet sky is either a crazy violent person (like you seem to be) or a cuban government agent. Again, why can't Cubans decide their own government in free and fair elections? For all we know most cubans still have a socialist dependent mentality, most opposition is light socialist too. They could even decide to stick to impoverishing socialism, just asking for a few more items in the rationing card.
I am not calling for violence. I said there was 2 OPTIONS. My preferred option is diplomacy. That is the hill I am choosing to die on. It’s the Cuban conservative exile community who want war and constantly call for “intervención militar” and other things like that. Again you ask “why can’t Cubans decide their own government in free and fair elections?” And again I respond, Why didn’t the Chinese or the Vietnamese or Saudi Arabians decide their government in free and fair elections? Why didn’t Ronald Reagan or Richard Nixon ask Mao Zedong and the other Chinese communists to hold fair elections and liberate political prisoners? Same thing with the other dictatorships I mentioned. That is all I am saying. My position is the moderate position. I do not want Cuba to receive special treatment, because that would be double standard and hypocrisy. I want the same thing for Cuba that the other dictatorships got. The U.S. put Cuba in the position it is in now, so the US cannot be asking for arbitrary pre-conditions now.
No no no. u/Burger_Mission kicks your sorry ass every time and leaves you crying in fetal position like a little girl. Your 8 year old intellect is unable to cope.
When the people said enough is enough and on July 11 millions they came out to the streets in Cuba asking for the end of the communist regime they were oppressed a few days later almost a hundred thousand Cubans came to the US capital we aren’t a small minority in fact we grow larger every year
Yes, and during the 1950s there was also a dictatorship and people who went out on the streets to protest would get beaten and harassed by police too, in addition to being tortured and killed in public executions like lynchings, ambushes, etc. But the Cuban people back then pushed through and defeated that government. Why? Because it was a majority of people against the government and it overwhelmed Batista’s forces (SIM agents, police, chivatos, etc.). The only solution for Cuba is for the U.S. to establish diplomacy and normalization. The only other option is the conservative Cuban exile community does an armed insurrection/invasion and guerrilla warfare, but we all know the conservative Miami Cubans are too cowardly to do that😂😂😂So until then, diplomacy is the only option.
You clearly have not live for more than a decade in the real Cuba so im going to cut you some slack my great grandfather was born in 1929 in a small town in Cuba and he didn’t know anything about politics he and his father fished in a little river in our town and with the fish they caught they were able to buy the supplies for the whole month when he grew older he went to work at a private local butcher shop and he told he and his family ate beef pork and horse meat every day they were poor but he and his family didn’t have to watch their children go to bed with empty stomachs like they do now because the current dictatorship is 100 times worst than the last my when he was 87 I asked him Yayo you’ve lived a significant amount of time in both dictatorships which one do you feel and he said well I don’t know but now I can only eat a small piece of beef when my son who lives in the US sends me for and it’s not even that easy to get so
What you just vomited has nothing to do with the topic of the conversation. The OP is talking about pre-conditions for the Cuban government to do so that the embargo is removed. I am explaining that those pre-conditions are arbitrary. When the U.S. established relations and diplomacy with other horrible repressive dictatorships like China, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, etc. THERE WERE NO arbitrary pre-conditions asked of them BEFORE establishing those relations. Ronald Reagan didn’t go to communist China in 1984 and shake hands with the communist dictators and tell them “Hey guys, please release political prisoners, hold free elections, and some other things, then we can have normalized relations.” Nixon also didn’t tell that to MAO ZEDONG when he shook his hand in the 1970s, and Mao Zedong did much worse to China than Fidel, Che, and Batista COMBINED and multiplied by 500. Same thing for Vietnam which killed hundreds of thousands of American soldiers. So again, you fail to explain why Cuba deserves special treatment that no other country received. It is called double standard, hypocrisy.
Because Fidel Castro and the regime stole all American properties in Cuba after 59 because all of those dictatorships are thousands of miles away because Cuba serves as a proxy for the enemy’s of the US because the border is flooded with Cubans some of which are spy’s and because they need our votes and the majority of us want a free Cuba and we care about the 1000 political prisoner who are being imprisoned and tortured without end Thats why
“1000 political prisoners imprisoned and tortured”. Okay, same with China, Vietnam, Saudi Arabia, etc. “Country is flooded with Cubans some of which are spies” okay, same with those other countries I mentioned, also the U.S. probably has more spies in foreign countries than any other country in the world. “Because all of those dictatorships are thousands of miles away” Incorrect. If that were the case, then the U.S. would’ve done the same stuff it’s doing to Cuba now, it would’ve done the same thing to the previous dictatorship under Batista, but they didn’t do it. So you are basically arguing “It’s okay to have a dictatorship in Cuba, as long as they support US interests!” “Because Castro and the regime stole American properties after 1959.” Incorrect. The nationalizations happened in the summer of 1960 ONLY AFTER in Spring of 1960 the U.S. government backed Cuba into a corner and unilaterally provoked Cuba by cutting off oil exports going to the island. You are demonstrating that you severely misunderstand Cuban history and you misunderstand what happened with the nationalized oil refineries.
Hey I’m not going to keep wasting my time trying to explain what you have clearly have not had to suffer through because first of all removing the embargo which is part of argument would not affect at all the way the Cubans live right now because almost all the chicken they buy comes from here have you seen Chevy Camaro brand new teslas Cadillacs brand new sports cars all around Cuba the embargo is a joke and everyone knows it and as Far as your “Unilaterally provoked Cuba” I’ve heard that bullshit excuse before that fact is and still remains that after 1963 no American and no Cuban citizen held any property in Cuban everything was stolen at the point of gun many Cubans who own private business had to flee the island or they were killed or imprisoned an as far as “unprovoked”the Cuban missil crisis proves that Castro was already in bed with the Soviet Union long before that so they did prove to be a threat unlike Batista so I don’t know what kind of bullshit history you have learned your probably not even Cuban and if you are I don’t know what kind of rock have you been living under because the fact is Cuba is a Cancer the Communist regime is a parasite feeding on those who send money to Cuba so there families won’t starve you feel no shame spreading misinformation playing with the truth of those who suffer if you were in Miami I would invite you to a boxing ring but of course you wouldn’t dare do it because people like you have to honor
LMAO. I am living in Miami, and no I do not want to box anyone, I am not a crazy lunatic. I would rather debate our ideas in a healthy civilized debate. You mention the chicken Cuba gets from the U.S. That is true. However, as you very well know, Cuba has to buy everything using CASH, precisely because of the embargo and sanctions. Every other country in the world is able to use CREDIT. So yes, Cuba can buy “chicken” and stuff from Cuba, but as to use CASH, so it is very limited. You then mention the unilaterally provoke Cuba thing. This is true. In May 1960 if I remember correctly, the United States cut off all petroleum exports to Cuba. In other words, Cuba was left with no petroleum to run their country. That is when the USSR (Soviet Unions) offered Cuba petroleum, since now the U.S. wasn’t giving Cuba petroleum. Cuba, without no other choice, accepted the Soviet petroleum. Cuba received the Soviet petroleum and took it to the AMERICAN private oil refineries on the island and asked them to refine the oil. The oil refineries were 100% WILLING to refine the petroleum, but the U.S. government forced them against their own will to not refine the petroleum for the Cuban government. That is when the refineries refused to refine the oil, and THAT is when Cuba nationalized the American companies in Cuba. So yes, the U.S. unilaterally provoked Cuba and backed them into a corner until they had no other choice but to nationalized the private companies and ally with the Soviet Union. You then mention the Cuban missile crisis. And that crisis was caused by the United States. It was the United States that had missiles in Italy and Turkey pointing towards the USSR FIRST. Then, after some time, the USSR put missiles in Cuba SECOND. When the USA found the missiles in Cuba, that is when the Cuban missile crisis happened in 1962, and the leaders of both the U.S. and the USSR got together and came to an agreement to each remove their missiles from the three places (Italy, Turkey, and Cuba). Cuba had no say in this, they were merely used by the Soviets, again because Cuba was pushed into Soviet hands by the USA.
Who is “they”
The dictatorship and their useful idiots abroad
So today you are completely projecting your personality on others. Still devastated by the humongous reddit bad karma tsunami you suffered yesterday on r/cuba LOL
LOL! You mean my highly successful post about ending dumb handouts and the poor dependent mentality in Cuba. Many thousands of people read it! Their minds changed forever.
Cuba has elections. You are a simp for US imperialism.
Only the most extreme of useful idiots believe the sham "elections" the regime organizes in which the same, only allowed party, has remained in power for almost 70 years.
So a two-party system like America that is controlled by corporate interests over the interests of the ppl in the solution to Cuba. Nice. Why not support the continuation of the original ideas of the revolution. Reform not surrender to corporate capitalism.
The "revolution" is corporate Capitalism. Look up "Cuba Gaesa".
They are very smart to restrict elections to party members. It makes it much more difficult for your buddies at the CIA to interfere in their elections.
It makes it impossible for both the CIA and the people! LOL
I gotta say i appreciate your mask off support of imperialism. You dont make the cowardly and nonsensical argument that the blockade is toothless, you think its good the most powerful military hegemon in history is collectively punishing a tiny impoverished nation for not towing the imperial line. It is a legitimately smart move for cuba to take steps to insulate itself from the meddling of the US who try to invade their country, to assassinate their leaders, to fund terrorism and economic sabotage. It is the only reason they have survived this long. Thank you for giving me further reason to wholeheartedly support the democratic will of rational Americans: end the damn blockade.
I despise Imperialism! https://youtu.be/V9ZAw1NZQ74
Beware of bad intentioned fishy internet links, they are used to spread computer viruses and steal your data and identity.
It's a Youtube link dummy LOL
Lol now cuba helping to end apartheid is “imperialism”. You rock bro 😎
If only the world could shake off the yoke of the vast Cuban Empire, with its military bases dotting the globe. Lol
Yes, their tentacles are all over Latin America, The Caribbean, Africa and in USA espionage! And since we are wishing for the end of imperialism let's not forget about China and Russia!
Hahahahahaha hell yeah that makes so much sense. Doesnt cuba also run an illegal prison/torture factory on US soil?
They run many hundreds of illegal prison/torture factory on Cuban soil. Why don't you protest these? https://cubaverdad.net/list\_prisons\_in\_cuba.htm
child brain
We all know that.
Yep, childish leftist projecting his cognitive dissonance
Keep living in your loser fantasy imaginary word (mental-straws) LOL
Ohh, you are a government claria, fake account with no posts. I'm reporting your ass LOL
Says the guy who wants democracy and free speech for Cuba. This Hypocrite wants to be a dictator in this unmoderated Sub to censor the voices and messages that makes him uncomfortable and to continue trolling the r/cuba users with impunity. Just like the Adrian of r/RealCuba.
How much are they paying you? Did you know all that money they spent on shills is coming from a starving people?
Adrian, is that you? LOL
Respond the question and I'll tell you
Textbook projection
Gets really complicated when we factor in the Desire for a Sovereign democratic Nation free of foreign domination.For the record " Cuban Style " Socialism is as mideval as was Europe under the Yolk of the Popes ...
Nobody said the communist party will be excluded from free elections. They would just have to compete for votes like everyone else
Now that’s hilarious. Be honest, how old are you Forrest. 10, 12 years old?
What exactly is so hilarious about free elections?
Hilarious because “free” elections don’t exist. How come in the America you never see a candidate that is truly for the people ever come in power ? Democracy is an illusion in the USA and for some reason you think democracy would work in Cuba. The Cuban people sacrificed so much to free itself from Batista and the mafia and you want to let them right back in
You mean a popular candidate like Obama or Trump? LOL
I assume you are being sarcastic?
Free elections in Cuba, a communist country? Your mental-straws are getting more and more delusional by the minute. Thank you for the entertainment LOL
Why not?
Now all we need is a catch phrase, song or social media movement to rile up the masses.
And a few million brain transplants so they finally get this https://youtu.be/dckt3ywihco
No I will not click any of your silly malware links.
It's a Youtube link you ignoramus LOL
Malware extremist propagada rubbish.
It might hack your two neurons you are right LOL
Next time use vaseline to ease the pain LOL
How much is the cuban government paying you for your fake account with no posts claria?
Your repetitive 24/7 posts are nothing but idiotic meme trolls. For too long you have been harassing this Sub, disseminating misinformation, insulting any Sub users who dare disagree with your extreme political propaganda, posting low quality content and behaving like the epic official Sub clown you are. If any Sub user should be banned, that would be you. Of course, unless you and the Sub moderatos are the same person, which a valid point considering the unprecedented impunity you’ve been given to do damage to this Sub and its users.
Respond the question claria
" I lived in the Monster,I know hpits Entrails" still applies
Well it’ll work if they weren’t dumb, an example is in a “ZOMBIE” book, in WWZ by Max Brooks there’s a great example about how Cuba can change without a “revolution”
Russia/the Russian Soviet Republic did pretty much all of this in 1991. The effect of this was a selling out of pretty much al businesses and an insane decline in living standards and life expectancy. Now Vietnam and China did have market reforms (which i think, the cuban people would massively benefit from as well), but what they didn't do, is abandon their party's grip on power. The effect of this was that the living standards, material wealth and life expectancy of the vietnamese and the chinese people increased greatly, while at the same time, they stay sovereign and aren't under someone's boot (like Cuba would be after "free and fair" elections). Much like the people living in the eastern bloc, it seems to be the case for many cubans that they think they'll keep things like universal healthcare, very low crime, etc. while getting much wealthier at the same time. This will not be the case. Edit: Economic reforms are pretty much on their way in Cuba, btw. So one can expect things to get better rather soon.
Why don't you let the cuban people decide what they want through free and fair elections? They could very well decide to keep themselves under the poverty of socialism. In fact most people in Cuba still have a socialist dependent mentality and the opposition is mostly light socialist
They cubans in the island are the ones to decide the future of their nation, not the hypocrites traitors (like you) who cowardly ran away and abandoned their homeland and their people. So stop talking shit, you too abandoned your country, an epic act of betrayal. Despicable!
Right 65 years with the same impoverishing obsolete party in power LOL. Only the most extreme of useful idiots believe in that sham. My government abandoned me and 11 million other cubans, not the other way around.
It is not your government. You ran away like rats and abandoned what at one point was your homeland. The traitors like you, who abandoned ship, have no say in the future on Cuba. Despicable.
If you truly believe your own crap why aren't you living in Cuba like a regular Cuban? Where do you live? I bet a million dollars it's a capitalist country! Doesn't that make a huge hypocrite and traitor?
You need a malware video to go with your idiotic copy-past repetitive trolls and mental-straws. Pajero!
You are just mad because I uncovered you as a paid shill of the Cuban goverment LOL. Did you know every dollar they are paying you is one dollar they take from a starving cuban?
So are they poor or can they afford misinformation campaigns I don’t get it?
For luxuries for the elite, repression and propaganda they always have money to spare!
Yeah not like they just did that to legalize gay marriage lol
Because the daughter of the dictator is gay they now allow it. Wow huge leap LOL
What? Lmao I’m talking about the family law code