You can cut the whole argument very simply, “ I don’t care if you have 600 years experience, this is my child. If you want to be around them, you need to respect the boundaries I set. If you can’t , you won’t get to see them”
Then there's even less point in wasting your time "winning" an argument with him.
But sometimes, pride gets in the way of people. Consider that he may want to meet your kid but maybe he's acting all macho about it because of whatever arguments you guys are having. You could try again at a later time, trying not to antagonize -not for you, but for your kid's sake. If you're around there's no risk that he will spank them. That would be the first step.
Might want to do a deep dive at your childhood and check out how he treats other grandkids if there are any. Might be dodging a bullet by accepting the low contact on his part.
Reddit compulsively says to cut all contact with family for the slightest wrongdoing.
Fuck that. People reconnect, change, etc all the time.. Nothing is a lost cause. Just create some guidelines for yourself in the beginning so you know when you DO start wasting your time.
Kids don’t need grandparents. Good grandparents are great an all, but kids don’t *need* grandparents. Hell my kids won’t hardly have any just because I’m older and we lost a bunch already.
They need to not be hit though.
I called my mom to tell her my daughter was born, even took my daughter to visit her a few times. She hasn’t called or checked in once. My daughter is two…
Wife is pregnant with number 2, and she hasn’t even called to say congratulations
It’s a shame but I guess it happens sometimes
I've always been of the mind if they can't understand why I'm hitting them, then I shouldn't be hitting them. If they can understand why, then why wouldn't I just explain to them why they did something wrong? And then using other forms of corrective action versus hitting.
My dad did this, but only after we found out we were having a girl, he completely stopped asking about the pregnancy or my wife. Not saying it's the same situation, but I get the way that makes you feel.
I took his distance as another reason not to continue the relationship. After my oldest was born the drastic divide between how I was raised and the love and kindness I want my kids to experience became massively apparent. It took about 6mths for me to reconcile how poorly I was treated and how much I love my kids and would give my life to protect them. After talking with a therapist, I realized that by breaking that connection I saved my kids from potential harm, and that's all the reason I need.
I feel you. It’s more sad that they won’t have the relationship with their grandparents that other kids they know do. But at least they’ll have you, and you obviously care enough about your kids to compensate for that lack of relationship with their grandparent.
Win/win/win then!
Why 3?
1) You dont have to see your asshole dad.
2) he doesnt have to see you or your kids where he's just looking down on how youre raising them.
3) kid doesnt have to be around that toxicity.
This is it right here. I had to do this with my dad. He insisted on driving with my son in the car after having multiple strokes. I had to put my foot down.
this is the only answer. it’s your and your wife’s house now. everyone else needs to fall in line, or else you’re stealing time from your kid trying to get other people to fall in line.
My wife has a really good line I think - “if you hit my child, I will hit you”.
Bit aggressive but it drives home the point that this *is* violence and the hitter wouldn’t want to be treated the same way, so it’s obviously *not* acceptable. Haven’t had anyone hitting our kid at all (including people I know hit other kids!)
God, I wish I could set boundaries that effectively. They've made me dependent upon them, trampled my boundaries and my role as father... and then wonder why I'm depressed and don't have a career that allows me to live independently. You! It's because of you!
You don't need to win an argument about the ethics of corporal punishment to solve that, you just need to put your foot down.
"Do you think hitting children is ok?"
'Sometimes.'
"Well, I don't, and I want to be really clear about this so there can be no misunderstandings: if I ever find out that you've hit my child, for any reason no matter how justified you think it is, you will never see them again, do you understand?"
If they want to keep arguing about how it's ok somehow, you just say "I understand how you feel about that, and I'm telling you how I feel about it: I think it's completely unacceptable and I will not tolerate it from you."
And possibly then the follow up, "Now, if you want me to leave my children alone with you, first you need to promise you're never going to hit them, and I'm going to hold you to it." (It helps if they're the one proposing they watch the kids for this to work.)
This is exactly how to handle it.
This is one of those non-negotiable negotiations you'd do with a teenager who wants something but is in no position to negotiate (my dad not allowing me to drive a date to a school dance when I was barely 16 and not yet legal for me to do so comes to mind)
State their position so they understand you understand them. State your position. State in clear terms the consequences of going against your wishes. Warmly demand understanding and acceptance.
Always calm, always firm. Repeat yourself as necessary.
Right, maybe OP "wins" and grandpa relents and says smacking/spanking kids isn't okay. And perhaps in the back of his mind he's thinking "unless the kid deserves it and doesn't tattle".
He can believe what he wants about hitting but that doesn't mean he'll violate his sons trust, those are two independent thoughts. You're saying he's supposed to forever ban his son from seeing his grandfather because of this? What a ridiculous Reddit over-reaction.
based on how OP is telling the conversation I'm gonna disagree here. this man is saying he will discipline the child how he sees fit if left to his own devices.
I cut my losses with father. He said he would respect our choices knowing that we would not hit our child but I'm a firm believer of "when someone shows you who they are, believe them". I won't put my kid through what I went through, by my hand or by a hand that has already done it. Regardless of what my father says, he will never be allowed to be alone with my child.
If he didn't regulate his emotions with his own small children, I doubt he'll be able to now that he's older.
Especially since he doesn't seem interested in trying.
Just let go of that idea. It's hard not having that support system, sure. but you and your kid will be fine with only supervised visits, even none at all. I know we looked around when ours was born and saw 0 out of 4 grandparents we were comfortable with leaving him alone with. its been 7 years and at this age, 1 grandparent is OK for short babysitting jobs but that's it. Better than the alternative!
To crystallize what others have said. You don’t have to agree with you father, you just need to trust that he won’t do things you don’t want him to do.
Wow, it is one thing that he validates using violence against his own children, but are you seriously saying he is thinking about using violence against his grandchildren as well?
I'm so sorry. It's so hard to even conceive of this. I hope your kiddo has a good grandfather option on the other side of the family. I sort of always figured that even people who don't like kids would still like meeting and spending *some* time with their grandkids. It's like all the fun parts of kids with none of the responsibilities or consequences, how does anyone not want that?
Both you and your kiddo deserve better. I'm sorry.
Last year I stopped trying to invite my father around (who was abusive) or suggesting we meet-up for recreational activities . I tried my best, I thought our relationship had improved in the 9 years we have been living apart, but nah. Not worth it. I am moving on. Cordially. I mean you need to know when to quit. It’s tough at first but pays off big time!
I agree with you. Sometimes it is not worth the arguments
But here it is someone who is directly affecting their children. I would fear that they could do the same for my children in the same situation.
I am sorry to hear that. are you interested in him having a relationship with your children? If so, be not afraid to set up rules and actively engage in that. If not, it might be for the better.
I'd suggest: "we're not discussing it, is been proven to be ineffective and harmful, if you won't promise not to hit my kid I won't leave him alone with you"
The conversation with my mother. In the end I said, "Smacking teaches the child that the correct response to poor behaviour in others is to commit and act of violence." She mumbled something about smacking us kids and us turning out OK, and I replied that my heartrate and breathing speed up if I have to tell her anything that has gone wrong in my life because my monkey brain is terrified she will hit me for it. To help her save face I told her we just didn't have the research on the long term effects of smacking in the 90s.
There are multiple studies that show that physical punishment is bad for children. Below are some examples and references.
Corporal punishment predicts cognitive problems like lower IQ scores, and it does not effectively promote long-term positive behaviors in children. Corporal punishment is associated with increased aggression, delinquent and antisocial behavior, mental health problems, and risk of being physically abused in childhood. It is also linked to more aggression, criminal and antisocial behavior, mental health problems, and abuse of one's own spouse or child in adulthood.
https://www.child-encyclopedia.com/social-violence/according-experts/corporal-punishment
The research indicates it has "no benefits" and "many risks" for children's adjustment.
https://americanspcc.org/the-dangers-of-physical-punishment-for-kids/ is a good summary
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8386132/
>The research indicates it has "no benefits" and "many risks" for children's adjustment.
That's an incredibly good one-line summary for the argument against spanking. It's much better than just saying that spanking is *bad* without elaborating. "You and I were both spanked and we turned out fine, it's fine!" "Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that spanking has zero benefits to it and many risks."
I also didn't turn out fine. Most of us didn't. We have major problems with addiction to drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, TV, video games. These are all escapes from our internal shame of having parents who didn't meet our developmental needs. We grew to believe WE were bad, not just some behaviors.
This is fairly well researched and was presented in the 1980s on PBS. We know it's wrong. But there's a huge denial about ever thinking our parents weren't saints. It's not about blame, but if we're unaware we can't change it either.
https://auresnotes.com/summary-homecoming-john-bradshaw/
It's not like 100% of previous generations *were* spanked though? That's how these studies exist. The prevalence of each mindset is changing. Both will still exist.
What pisses me off is that “you turned out fine” is an entirely external observation that has literally nothing to do with our relationship or how I felt about them. I used to be terrified of my dad and got really great at hiding things/lying to them to avoid punishment, I wonder if that’s “fine”
Seriously, why are you even bothering then. You already seem to know exactly what he is going to say. You already said he has no interest in spending time with your kid. Why all this wasted energy?
Absolutely, it’s been shown to be ineffective and harmful to a child’s psychological development, Wales and Scotland here in the UK have taken it one step further, making it illegal to “smack” your child as a form of punishment.
I was part of a focus group regarding this law in Wales! I spent several hours in the Senedd discussing the master. I'm a teacher as well as a feather, so I have really strong feelings about this. There were plenty of people who thought that smacking was an acceptable form of punishment, but none of them had children that were *currently* children - they were parents of grown adults.
Anybody that was my age was either undecided or strongly opposed to any form of corrosion punishment.
Oooo I have this rehearsed... *takes deep breath*:
Multiple longitudinal studies across countries, cultures, and socioeconomic groups show a very high correlation between corporal punishment and violent behavior, poor impulse control, and lower cognitive function.
I always go with, if you fuck up at work are you happy getting hit to teach you to be better? Because if you think that pain isn't the best teacher for you why do you think it is for a child
Spanking didn’t teach me shit. I used to piss my dad off on purpose and run away from him through the house howling…. then he’d catch me and spank the shit outta me. I’d stop for the moment but I’d definitely do it again later.
I’m gonna play devils advocate, because this is reddit I’m going to expect 100 downvotes and emotional backlash. But again.. devils advocate.
I think light discipline is mostly fine, with some exceptions. Straight hitting is not really effective.
I don’t mean hit your kid cos he had two cookies instead of one, I mean if your kid pushes another kid off the tramp and breaks his leg, if your 12 year old tries to stab his brother with a knife.. like extreme cases It could be warranted.
But fuck, for people who make the argument to hit your kids they do seem to give out hidings way too easily. I would argue that saying “it’s never ever ok” is wrong.
My parents spanked in the 90s and their minds did change about this. Where we settled was that spanking was state of the art for a traditional Asian immigrant household at the time (these ideas took time to propagate without the internet) and since then the evidence has made it abundantly clear to us that spanking has never worked and they’re sorry. Nobody’s parents are perfect, but some listen to evidence and advice from their own better-informed boomer friend networks and come out changing their minds. This is all to say if your dad is dying on that hill, you can chalk it up to them personally being an asshole and don’t let the generational thing confuse the issue.
You have to speak to the things they value.
Boomers value 'facing the facts' and 'taking responsibility' and the only reason they support spanking is because it speaks to those values.
"You know what spanking taught me, dad? It taught me how easy it was to hide shit from you. I never listened, I never 'learned my lesson, I just got good at hiding it from you. I don't want to teach my kids to hide stuff. I want to teach them to come forward, make the hard decision to do the right thing, to be brave, and to take responsibility for their actions. If I spanked them I'd just teach them what you taught me: that its better to sneak around to get what you want than to be responsible.'
Then if that doesn't work take off the gloves for the following conversation:
"Hitting a child is something weak people do when they know the kid got the better of them. It's something stupid people do when they're not smart enough to think of something that will actually work."
>"yes, we did. But did it harm you?"
The answer is "Yes, it did." Because of course it did. So do some self reflection, figure out what damage it did to you, and tell him about it.
To hit another person under "normal" circumstances is a crime
Corporal punishment is not legal (depending on country, of course)
Corporal punishment has been shown to not be effective (citation needed)
Add in the disproportionate relationship (parent is physically much bigger/stronger)
Add in the power dynamic (child can't leave or fight back)
Add in the fact that the child may well not understand why they're being hit
Add in the ludicrous argument that "this is done out of love"
If boomer doesn't get that, there's no hope for them.
This is such a strange thing to witness becuase where I live spanking is absolutely the norm. That being said, it's nowhere near what it was like when I was a boy.
Yeah, English is not my first language. Let me phrase it:
Do you still have contact to your parents when your older?
Do you meet them at eye level?
Who makes decisions in your family when more than 2 adults are involved?
And a personal one: are you happy with how your family turned out?
1. Yes; they live down the road from me. They're very involved with our lives. We have our differences, but that's just family. If your asking if I have any resentment of them... I'd say no(ish).
2. Oh yeah, I was taught to look absolutely everyone dead in the eyeballs.
3. My wife and I are pretty good at coming together to reach a decision, but the hard and fast rule is: if one of us makes a decision first, the other backs it until we can talk about it. No one has veto power, I'd say. I guess that's not true.... we have veto power depending on how important the issue is to us, if that makes sense. It might just be the kind of system that only works because we have been together for so long.
4. I mean... yeah, I'm happy. But, I don't really tie that happiness to my parents. That is to say, it's nice to have them around, but my main source of happiness and fulfillment in this world come from my wife and kids. And, no bullshit, I was just telling my wife the other day that I am the happiest ive ever been in my entire life.
To 2 and 3: I was talking about how your parents respect you, your wife and the decision you both make. Like where and how to celebrate Christmas together. Are they debating and discussing your input or do they insist that things like that are done the way they want to.
Okay, let me go back and reread your questions with this in mind.
2. Yes, I look my mother and father in the eyes. But I'm getting the sense that this means something else in your first language. like.... "Are you equals?" If that's the question, then no, we are not equals. They are my parents. I still call them ma'am and sir. If they need help, I will help them before anyone except my wife and children. If they have a request, all things being equal, I'll help them out.
3. As to the decisions.... I had to think about this for a while. I'd say this - both of my parents ask me for my availability. That is, they don't tell me to do anything, and they haven't for maybe 20 years. If there is some larger family plan, they don't steamroll me or my wishes. But.... if there is something important to them, and I am unable to accommodate, they will go go ahead without me.
Does that all make sense? It seemed like the cleanest example of how this plays out. In the end, I think it's a fairly healthy relationship. To be fair though, I believe it might be like this because I'm a fairly assertive person.
Besides wand SansSariph correctly states, you could try different things. First off, if true, you could answer is his queation about it haring you with yes? I would argue that using violence to punish or het your way is a sign of weakness as a parent. It just instills fear in them and teaches them that instrumental violence is oke. It also doesn't teach them anything else about their behaviour.
I've never been able to find anything supporting corporal punishment for kids. No research or studies of any kind. Usually just some guy who says your kid will be a pansy or spoiled if you don't hit him and that he was hit as a kid and turned out fine. He will then complain about how his wife is divorcing him for "anger issues" which he says are bullshit and totally made up.
Did you ask your dad what other things were different 60 years ago?
His parents probably went to segregated schools.
Nobody thought smoking was bad for you.
We're women allowed to have a bank account yet?
Things change.
I'm not saying it is right, and my wife and I are not disciplining our son this way, but I do remember getting hit when I was being disrespectful to my mom. To be honest, looking back on it, I probably would've gotten hit in the face by someone else down the road had it not happened.
Yeah, I am on the fence. I was spanked and I definitely deserved it, and the fear of spanking kept me in line. No one was trying to injure me lol. But the entire process of spanking was a big deal and I think it was done “right” by my parents…
…with that being said, I think I’d rather die than make my daughter cry so. This is confusing.
German here. Hitting kids under any circumstanced by anyone (including parents) is child abuse and is illegal here and will get CPS involved if found out.
It may very well have caused psychological damage to you, and even if it didn't or the damage is minor, why 1) risk long-term psychological damage and 2) negatively impact your and your fathers relationship and 3) cause you pain, when all of this is unnecessary and there are clearly better and less lazy alternatives.
My mother and I had this argument once as well. At some point I stopped trying to convince her and just told her that the way I wanted to raise my sons is the way we are going to do it. No exceptions, period. I told her she can accept it and be a grandmother, or not and she doesn't need to see them. It helps that I'm not very close with her so it wasn't an empty threat and I would have lost zero sleep cutting her off from the kids forever.
Imagine a world where we didn't outgrow the attitudes of the past?
I'm GenX and my dad would only wear a seat belt when I was in the car "to set a good example". Its different from the spanking case, but still a clear example of times changing.
My dad weirdly posts shit like this on Facebook all the time, like "people are afraid to spank their kids these days" and "My parents hit me, and I turned out fine!" But he never once spanked us or raised his hand to us. He's actually quite a gentle person. So it's more confusing than anything.
Once someone cites their X years of experience to me as the only justification for something with no other explanation, I automatically discount them as a viable source. Years of experience does not equate to effectiveness or guarantee the best results. I've done certain things wrong for years. We all do. But simply stating that you've done it for many years isn't the same as saying you've done it well, effectively, or efficiently.
There are obviously exceptions. If I take my car to my mechanic thinking I have a problem with a rotor and he says he believes otherwise based on experience, of course I'm going to trust that there's a good chance he's correct. But in this case, I'm not a mechanic. You and your father are both parents, and you have the added benefit of being the product of his parenting. You get experience from both sides.
My mom slapped me across the head with a hairdryer for “taking too long” brushing my teeth when I was in middle school.
If either of my parents put their hands on my kids then I’d probably take out quite a few years of frustration on them the next time I seen them.
Don’t get me wrong, I love my parents. We have a much better relationship now that I’m an adult and can set my own boundaries and tell them to leave, but the setting boundaries part is what allows us to have a relationship
"as valid as your experience is, it's not the only way of doing things, there are other ways of raising kids and we're going to do it our way."
That's it. That's all that's needed.
Is the child old enough to understand what they did wrong? Then you use words and explain to them what they did wrong and set expectations for future behaviour. If they aren’t old enough to understand what they did wrong then fucking hitting them isnt going to make them understand either. Hitting a child for doing something “wrong” is just an excuse for you to exercise power over them and be a cunt. If you can’t grasp that very simple concept then you don’t get to be part of their life.
It's about trust. "Dad all i remember from it is making a big mistake and you hurting me worse than I'd been hurt by an adult. As I got older it made me want to hide things from you not come to you for help and advice."
Controversial but I do agree that physical consequences immediately after crossing some boundaries can be effective. However, I don't believe that parents should be the one to demonstrate that. They can teach it but demonstrating it is entirely different.
Plenty of comments supporting that spanking is not good, what is an effective alternative?
Spanking happens when they kids is behaving badly, we get overwhelmed and the spanks do resolve the conflict in the moment.
What do you do instead? What will be be positive reinforcement that doesn’t harm them for the rest of their lives?
I’ve had this talk with my dad. My answer was simple.
You might have done it that way but this is my child and what I say goes. I don’t care for your opinion on the matter. Hit my child and it’s the last time you’ll ever see them
My mom tries to tell me shit all the time. Any time she claims she knows better I just tell her if she had done a good job we wouldn’t be arguing right now so clearly she fucked up. Works every time.
I have parental rights, you don’t. And I plan to exercise my rights.
Don’t act on your beliefs about spanking with my kid.
We can debate your beliefs but they don’t make any difference for my kid.
Arguing with your Dad implies that his beliefs matter. You should make sure that his beliefs do not matter. Then you can have a pointless debate just for the fun of it.
Elizebeth Gershoff is the expert on spanking. You can provide him with her stuff.
The most effective methods for reducing behavior problems as measured in randomized controlled trials are mostly about using positive consequences to fill the day with desirable or acceptable behavioral habits that replace or crowd out the problem behaviors. The most useful positive consequence is attention. No punishment or at most mild punishment is required, no more than grounding for a day.
Spanking can be counterproductive because it is a form of attention that can function as a positive consequence. It is never needed for habit formation and it can create bad habits.
Spanking has been obsolete based on scientific research since around 1970. It was probably already dated when he used it.
tbh sometimes pain is the only language a child understands. i don't like doing it, but i certainly don't have an issue correcting my children physically if they're running their mouths and don't respond to other punishment. and to tell the truth, they're very good kids and know where the line is. which is more than i can say for some of their mouthy shitty friends
You will literally never win an argument with them. Especially if they’re your parent. They just can’t see you as an intellectual equal.
No amount of research or proper arguments can change their mind and never will. Firm boundary setting is all that will work.
I’ve heard it said many times now that you have to “gentle parent” your own parents once you have kids.
> I raised 3 children.
"And the researchers and doctors who say this is damaging and abusive have studied tens of *thousands* of children. You don't know anything."
And if he cannot respect these boundaries, he cannot see his grandkids.
That's the end of the conversation. Your kids, your rules.
It's honestly not even worth arguing about with our parents for a couple of reasons. First, they have the anecdotal "evidence" that is you and their other children. Obviously you're alive and not a serial killer, so how bad can it be?
Secondly, think of what it means for them to actually believe that it's wrong. It means they have to admit to themselves and everybody else that they were abusive to their children for their whole childhoods. That's a HUGE emotional burden for somebody to accept, and one that most people aren't even capable of assuming without serious work. They're simply incapable of considering it objectively because of the terrifying implications.
We can do better for our kids, but it would be a VERY hard journey to actually convince our parents of what we know now. As long as they're not hitting your kids, I say just leave it be.
This is a good approach and I apply it more broadly. I tell them "you did what was thought to be best at that time, we want to do what's considered best today. Maybe our children will do it differently with their children, but at least I'll know I did what was believed to be the best one could do." That way, you're giving them an easy way out as long as they accept today's standards for their today's responsibilities. When I say more broadly, this is about food and the age they eat it at, medicine, sleeping arrangements, etc. - the best practices do indeed change and eventually what we did will likely be considered wrong to some extent.
I’m with you here! Also OP and everyone constantly saying “hitting” doesn’t help things. Just say spanking…I was hit as a child and spanked….they are two different things.
One can say that they're both *wrong* and still say that there is a difference. I was very infrequently spanked as a child. It was *never* in anger, never suddenly and never in a situation where I didn't know damn well beforehand that what I was doing would likely end in my getting spanked.
I was *never* hit anywhere on my body other than that. Never suddenly, never with anything other than calmness from my father. Never in anger. Never with a fist or anything other than the "standard" spanking action on a clothed rump.
I adore my parents to the point that I feel guilty when I read stuff on Reddit about how much crap other people had to / have to put up with from their parents. I'm headed to their house today to help fix some stuff because they're just great people who I love being around. I'm unbelievably blessed.
To suggest that a handful of spankings through the peak of my childhood jackassery was not different than if my father had gotten mad at me and punched me in the face on the regular is wildly unfair to all the people whose dads *did* get mad at them and punch them in the face on the regular.
You can consider both to be *wrong* and still acknowledge that the two things are *different*.
It seems like we're having 2 different arguments here and they're getting conflated a bit. If your point is that you prefer to use the same word for:
1. a non-sudden non-anger-driven open hand to the butt and
2. a sudden angry closed fist to the face
then that's one thing. I wholeheartedly disagree and I think that there's a reason we use different words for different degrees of things in order to avoid confusion.
But u/sxybmanny2 said that he was spanked *and* hit as a child and they were different things and you said they are not different things. [https://i.imgur.com/mSrV3Qz.png](https://i.imgur.com/mSrV3Qz.png)
Saying they are not different things would necessarily mean that a kid would be neutral between the two in the same way that they'd be neutral between pancakes and flapjacks because those are in fact not different things, just different words for the same thing.
I don't know *any* child who would be neutral between 1) and 2) in the list above whether or not we use different words for them. As an adult who was occasionally spanked as a kid I'm extremely grateful to have lived in a home where I *never* wondered whether I was going to be hit. I recognize that #2 would have been deeply traumatizing and scary in a way that #1 never was.
Spanking is one type of hitting. That means that spanking and hitting are, by definition, not different things. One is a general term, and the other is a specific term within that general term. Spanking and punching, or spanking and kicking, are different things, but they're all different variations of hitting. If you spank your kids, you hit them. The people who want to you to think that hitting their kid on the butt deserves a different name and different category from hitting them literally anywhere else on their body are the ones who want to hit their kids without the stigma that comes with saying you hit your kids. And anybody who's been spanked absolutely has the right to tell people that their parents hit them.
>Spanking is one type of hitting. That means that spanking and hitting are, by definition, not different things.
Squares are one type of quadrilateral. That means that squares and quadrilaterals are, by definition, not different things. Except they *are* different things.
Humans are one type of primate. That means that primates and humans are, by definition, not different things. Except they *are* different things.
A subset of some set is not the same as the set, nor is it the same as all the other things in the set. And if the only "hitting" you received as a child was a spanking, and you go to someone who was beaten (punched, kicked) as a child, and tell them, "I know how you feel, my father hit me too", and then in subsequent conversation you reveal that your parent never hit you in anger and never hit you other than a spanking on the bottom, I don't know if that person who was in the emergency room a dozen times as a child is really going to feel like you had the same experience.
This is perfect, thanks.
Humans are primates. Squares are quadrilaterals. Spankings are hitting.
Where am I losing you?
Neither one excludes the other. If a kid says their parents hit them, it could be spanking. If they say their parent spanked them, that's definitely hitting them.
I give up. Whatever you say, a spanking and a nose-breaking punch to the face are totally the same thing and you should sign yourself up for a support group for adults who were battered as children because someone spanked you. As someone who's worked with *actual* battered and abused children your pathetic equating of the two things disgusts me.
All I can say is with reasoning skills like yours I really hope you're not actually an engineer. Or "enginer".
OP put a sidenote to clarify he was talking about spanking. Telling his dad that he hit him is way different than telling my dad he hit me. One dad spanked his kid like a billion of parents have done and the other one punched me in my face which isn’t as common.
It sounds like you trying to say that there are different degrees of hitting, which I would of course agree with. But spanking is still hitting. People who insist otherwise are the ones who are trying to separate their bad behavior from other behavior.
Two things can be true:
1) Spanking is absolutely a valid disciplinary measure
2) Never spank another person's child, even your kid's kid.
I hope you can come around to understanding 1), and that your father can come around to understanding 2).
It really isn't a valid method of discipline, it's basically teaching your kids that it's OK to hit someone when you run out of ideas.
You're right on point two though.
Yes - you are not always right and “because we are your parents” is not an excuse to act like an arse
Currently not seeing my parents due to this, and they refuse to apologise because they refuse to see why what they have done is wrong and instead tried to double down.
To argue with a boomer is to experience true futility. It is like trying to convince the waves to stop crashing onto the sands. Like asking the sun not to set.
“I know you hit us and we turned out okay. We have decided our kids will not be spanked. Can you promise to abide by that for us?”
If he says yes, great but check with your kids. If he says no, don’t leave your kids alone.
Doesn’t matter what he thinks now, they aren’t his kids.
Scrolled through almost all the comments love this one the most. This is the reason my mother in law didn't get to see her first grandchild for the first 3 years of her life because she wouldn't or couldn't understand that me and my wife are the parents not her we set the boundaries for our children Wich aren't many. Our kids are 17,15 and 13 and they come talk to us about anything they want. They were disciplined growing up but they are also given there say in everything. It's not a we are the parents so you get no sya because your a kid household.
It wasn't okay when he was parenting you either. Abuse is abuse. Hitting is abuse. There is no lesson a child learns from being hit except "might makes right" and "oh wow this person who is supposed to love me is hitting me, I must be bad"
Pick your battles! It’s not that you’re right and he’s wrong, some battles just ain’t worth fighting. My mom and I use to argue all the time about her grandchild and how I parent. It just ain’t worth it if the other side ain’t even willing to understand your argument or point. Control what you can and let everything else run its course.
Just look up physical punishment studies in the vein of Applied Behavior Analysis. There’s plenty of actual data that has been gathered regarding the lasting behavior changes related to physical punishment and punishment in general.
This is exactly where I’m at with my folks, but in regards to screen time. No means no. Our parents “experiences” do not trump that statement. If I said no TV, and my kids tell me about all the shit they watched with you - you aren’t seeing them. Boundaries are there for the kids, not the adults. Teaching them how to cultivate loving and respectful relationships is not shown by plopping them in front of a screen as “care” and hitting them when they behave like children. I look at how I turned out and how my relationship is with my parents now to give me bearing on how to flip the cycle. Listening to your kids is number 1 and it’s fucking HARD. Harming your kids because you don’t want to have the necessary skills, is not acceptable. Stay stalwart Dad.
I can’t ever imagine hitting my kids. I don’t mind scaring the shit out of them with words and angry seriousness if they do something really terrible, though.
Look everybodys stories and chilhoods are different, but here is I handled when my parents disagreed with how I was disciplining (or not) my children,
Rather than focus on how they raised me, I would counter with how they were raised. Both my parents were raised on farms and doing dangerous jobs but they would never let me do stuff like that when I was a kid because each generation builds on the ones before. When you make it about how you do it vs how they did it it makes it seem like they were wrong. They were just dong the best they can and you better believe when our kids are raising their own children they will have plenty to criticize on how we did it.
When my parents were kids they were disciplined with a belt, when they had me, I got some slaps on the butt, when I disciplined my kids they got timeouts.
Remind your parents its not about no discipline and letting kids do whatever they want , its about what works. They changed from how they were raised and now you are building off of that.
Keep in mind you are arguing against both his image of his own parents and his image of himself. It’s an incredibly difficult thing to argue with. That’s why so many people are “proud” of being hit or hitting their kids. They cope/rationalize it as a necessary form of love+discipline, partially attribute their successes in life to it, and bemoan modern “soft” parenting as the reason behind our societal ills.
Rather than try to change a fundamentally loaded emotional position, you’re better off just getting him to agree that you get to decide how your kids are disciplined and he is never to spank/hit them. And that your kids will tell you if he does. I think most people who have your dad’s view on spanking are still able to respect these kinds of boundaries that their adult child sets.
Physical violence is not the solution for teaching kids how to behave. Saying it’s OK in a family situation is a direct lead into domestic violence being normalized.
They also used to shoot liquid mercury up your dick hole to treat syphilis. Things change and what used to be considered a good idea or acceptable may not be anymore.
My viewpoint on hitting: Are they old enough to understand what they did wrong/why they’re being hit? No? Hitting them won’t correct if words won’t. Yes? Use words and explain. All hitting is guaranteed to do is make the kid fear, be angry at, or resent their parent. All hitting will teach is frustration can be addressed with violence.
I explained it that way to my boomer parent who smacked me out of frustration more often than I can count. They cried and apologized (30ish years after the fact but it was a genuine apology)
You are already framing the argument wrong. To argue that hitting children today is wrong is to concede that hitting children in the past was correct. Also "Did it harm you?" is a poor argument because it is arguing that something that doesn't harm the child is ok to do. Would it be ok for you to not teach your child how to read? I mean, you aren't hurting them and they will probably figure it out later anyways.
Spanking is ***literally illegal*** in many countries. Every study says it is in effective **at best** and out-right harmful and counter productive at worse. There are a lot of parenting philosophies and a lot of choices to make but spanking is never the correct one.
Your childhood sounds similar to mine.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/#:~:text=Numerous%20studies%20have%20found%20that,in%20the%20context%20of%20punishment.
https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/usable-knowledge/21/04/effect-spanking-brain
https://www.apa.org/act/resources/webinars/corporal-punishment-gershoff.pdf
If these studies from multiple respected sources detailing how harmful physical punishment is won't change his mind, nothing will. The only thing that might work to make sure he never strikes your child is just a blanket "If I ever find out you've laid an unkind hand on my child you'll never see them again."
The best I ever got from my parents was "everybody did it, we were just doing our best. I'd like to see you do any better"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/
This is old but good evidence against spanking. Why not discuss with him using science? There are heaps of studies which show spanking has lasting impacts.
Hitting a kid teaches them that they need to obey people stronger than them. That's it. At best you'll instill adherence to "the rules".
Other methods teach kids empathy and morality and how to do the right thing even when there aren't obvious or immediate consequences for doing the wrong thing.
60 years experience? Does this guy think he's a daycare worker? Does he still feel entitled to flopping you over his lap to spank you for arguing with him over this?
You tell him that one experience does not define reality for everyone. If he argues against that, then I'm sorry but your children will never be safe with him.
Yes! It did! It made me afraid of you and I had to work through my trauma to be able to stand up to the drill sargant monster inside you and not become that monster myself.
- what I would say to my dad in a similar argument given that he's used these EXACT same points. I try not to hate him, it's against my religion, or dishonor him, but the trauma.... It's real.
Having children, fumbling through raising them or letting them raise themselves, in no way shape or form means anyone is a professional. The idea that many parents have that they did it and there's no way they could've done it wrong because the kids survived is outrageous.
lol Reddit is such a cuckhole. If they’re too young to understand, never spank. If they understand, and don’t learn from a thorough explanation, there will be repercussions.
You mean like… how the world works? Whether it’s direct or indirect, violence is always the answer to non compliance. Look the most important thing to the development of a child is presence, calm and direct execution of daily life tasks and frequent informal communication. These studies are all garbage, to have a true experiment or study, you need a constant. How on earth can you have a constant while the study is on humans which none are the same, spankings are not the same, the perception of why, or the perception of the one doing the spanking is not the same, etc. I was issued an ass whooping daily, had no father, and was always in trouble. My IQ is 136 (relevancy based on these “studies”) and I’m wildly successful by most measures. Probably has something to do with my aggressive nature.
This is a tale as old as time. I got my ass spanked multiple times and did not suffer any harm. Whatever those studies suggest non apply to me or any of the other kids I grew up with within my entire family. Not all kids are the same and same applies to families. Abusing your kid is not the same as getting spanked. Hitting your kids on a daily basis as part of their diet is unacceptable behavior. I have 3 kids 7,12,14 and they each have gotten 2-3 good ol spanks in their lifetime and all 3 are normal kids,well behaved and well mannered.
You as a parent choose how you want to raise and discipline your kids, your relatives don’t need to accept that but they have to respect it.
I will never understand people who speak out in support of hitting children.
It's such a useless and unnecessary thing to do.
There's nothing logical about it. The only reason you think hitting children is 'good' is because somebody hit you.
Here in the UK, Scotland and Wales have outlawed “hitting” children as a form of punishment, there’s a huge amount of evidence and data that shows smacking children has an adverse impact to their psychological well being, I presume other countries will likely follow this stance, as you rightly say, it’s an outdated form of punishment that shouldn’t be used.
I’m so glad my father whipped me! I had some friends that their parents never did. My life was so much easier because I learned doing the wrong things will hurt you when I was young. Me friends found out doing the wrong things will hurt you as an adult. My father loved me enough to do his best to help me have an easier, more productive, and happier life! I thank him so much for that!!!!!
I come from the deep dark countryside of Southwest England - the wooden bakers spoon was the choice of weapon used to terrorise us. Never once did it stop me from doing “naughty” things, but it sure as hell made me resentful of my father - who was more psychologically abusive than he was physically.
Of course there is a “let it be” conspiracy of silence about it in the family - though thankfully he has heeded my declaration of “not permitted to give our unsolicited parenting advice”.
Here's just my opinion. Have I hit my kids? No because I haven't felt the need to. Was I spanked as a child? Yes, under certain circumstances. Am I against spanking? No. I believe, under certain circumstances, that spanking can be appropriate. I think today too many parents try to do this "gentle parenting" and their children are little a-holes because they are not scared of the consequences for their actions. Too many parents want to be best friends with their children instead of being a parent. You child, in my opinion, should be scared of you some times if they do something wrong that they know is wrong. I'm not saying they should be fearful of their parents 24/7, but when they do something very bad they should be scared of the consequences. It's more of a respect thing. I see it so often in my profession where kids think they can do whatever they want because they know they parents are just going to say "it's okay johnny tell me how you're feeling. It's okay to feel angry johnny, don't do it again".
Mine is Brexit... It's been a massive screw up. And my dad voted for it... However he has changed his tune a little. Last time we spoke he said had he known it was actually going to happen he wouldn't have voted for it.
He expected it to fail but for a bit of a wake up call for the government. I told him next time he votes on something only vote if you actually want that thing to happen...
Seriously for Brexit they should have had a cut off age of 60 years old
You can cut the whole argument very simply, “ I don’t care if you have 600 years experience, this is my child. If you want to be around them, you need to respect the boundaries I set. If you can’t , you won’t get to see them”
Yeah sadly I think there is no interest at all in seeing them.
Then there's even less point in wasting your time "winning" an argument with him. But sometimes, pride gets in the way of people. Consider that he may want to meet your kid but maybe he's acting all macho about it because of whatever arguments you guys are having. You could try again at a later time, trying not to antagonize -not for you, but for your kid's sake. If you're around there's no risk that he will spank them. That would be the first step.
Ouch, sorry to hear that.
So he doesn't want to see them, and you don't trust him with them. I'd lean into what naturally occurs when those two realities meet.
If there's no interest, why pursue the relationship?
Well we had a good one before my son was born. Trying to get back to the man he was.
He was always the same man. What has changed is that now you have a kid, and you have grown as a person (hopefully).
Might want to do a deep dive at your childhood and check out how he treats other grandkids if there are any. Might be dodging a bullet by accepting the low contact on his part.
Reddit compulsively says to cut all contact with family for the slightest wrongdoing. Fuck that. People reconnect, change, etc all the time.. Nothing is a lost cause. Just create some guidelines for yourself in the beginning so you know when you DO start wasting your time.
It's crazy. People here really try to convince OP to cut contact with their dad because he doesn't want to be an involved grandpa. It's ridiculous.
Damn. That sucks brother. Sorry to hear that
Kids don’t need grandparents. Good grandparents are great an all, but kids don’t *need* grandparents. Hell my kids won’t hardly have any just because I’m older and we lost a bunch already. They need to not be hit though.
If it makes you feel any better my wife's family hasn't called or texted her since she gave birth five days ago. Not one.
Going on a year and a half for my wife's parents... She's never been less stressed. Sometimes no contact is a blessing we didn't know we needed
Yeah...it's tough to be the one to tell her that tho.
I called my mom to tell her my daughter was born, even took my daughter to visit her a few times. She hasn’t called or checked in once. My daughter is two… Wife is pregnant with number 2, and she hasn’t even called to say congratulations It’s a shame but I guess it happens sometimes
I've always been of the mind if they can't understand why I'm hitting them, then I shouldn't be hitting them. If they can understand why, then why wouldn't I just explain to them why they did something wrong? And then using other forms of corrective action versus hitting.
My dad did this, but only after we found out we were having a girl, he completely stopped asking about the pregnancy or my wife. Not saying it's the same situation, but I get the way that makes you feel. I took his distance as another reason not to continue the relationship. After my oldest was born the drastic divide between how I was raised and the love and kindness I want my kids to experience became massively apparent. It took about 6mths for me to reconcile how poorly I was treated and how much I love my kids and would give my life to protect them. After talking with a therapist, I realized that by breaking that connection I saved my kids from potential harm, and that's all the reason I need.
I feel you. It’s more sad that they won’t have the relationship with their grandparents that other kids they know do. But at least they’ll have you, and you obviously care enough about your kids to compensate for that lack of relationship with their grandparent.
Win/win/win then! Why 3? 1) You dont have to see your asshole dad. 2) he doesnt have to see you or your kids where he's just looking down on how youre raising them. 3) kid doesnt have to be around that toxicity.
This is it right here. I had to do this with my dad. He insisted on driving with my son in the car after having multiple strokes. I had to put my foot down.
this is the only answer. it’s your and your wife’s house now. everyone else needs to fall in line, or else you’re stealing time from your kid trying to get other people to fall in line.
My wife has a really good line I think - “if you hit my child, I will hit you”. Bit aggressive but it drives home the point that this *is* violence and the hitter wouldn’t want to be treated the same way, so it’s obviously *not* acceptable. Haven’t had anyone hitting our kid at all (including people I know hit other kids!)
God, I wish I could set boundaries that effectively. They've made me dependent upon them, trampled my boundaries and my role as father... and then wonder why I'm depressed and don't have a career that allows me to live independently. You! It's because of you!
What are you hoping to get out of "winning" these arguments? Your energy may be better spent elsewhere, unfortunately.
The trust to let him spend time with my son alone in some future.
You don't need to win an argument about the ethics of corporal punishment to solve that, you just need to put your foot down. "Do you think hitting children is ok?" 'Sometimes.' "Well, I don't, and I want to be really clear about this so there can be no misunderstandings: if I ever find out that you've hit my child, for any reason no matter how justified you think it is, you will never see them again, do you understand?" If they want to keep arguing about how it's ok somehow, you just say "I understand how you feel about that, and I'm telling you how I feel about it: I think it's completely unacceptable and I will not tolerate it from you." And possibly then the follow up, "Now, if you want me to leave my children alone with you, first you need to promise you're never going to hit them, and I'm going to hold you to it." (It helps if they're the one proposing they watch the kids for this to work.)
This is exactly how to handle it. This is one of those non-negotiable negotiations you'd do with a teenager who wants something but is in no position to negotiate (my dad not allowing me to drive a date to a school dance when I was barely 16 and not yet legal for me to do so comes to mind) State their position so they understand you understand them. State your position. State in clear terms the consequences of going against your wishes. Warmly demand understanding and acceptance. Always calm, always firm. Repeat yourself as necessary.
[удалено]
He’s telling you that you shouldn’t trust him. Listen when someone tells you who they are.
Exactly this. Why would you put your kids in potential harms way? They shouldn’t be used to test someone’s ability to honor boundaries and safety.
Right, maybe OP "wins" and grandpa relents and says smacking/spanking kids isn't okay. And perhaps in the back of his mind he's thinking "unless the kid deserves it and doesn't tattle".
He can believe what he wants about hitting but that doesn't mean he'll violate his sons trust, those are two independent thoughts. You're saying he's supposed to forever ban his son from seeing his grandfather because of this? What a ridiculous Reddit over-reaction.
based on how OP is telling the conversation I'm gonna disagree here. this man is saying he will discipline the child how he sees fit if left to his own devices.
I didn't see that context, so yeah, agreed.
I cut my losses with father. He said he would respect our choices knowing that we would not hit our child but I'm a firm believer of "when someone shows you who they are, believe them". I won't put my kid through what I went through, by my hand or by a hand that has already done it. Regardless of what my father says, he will never be allowed to be alone with my child.
If he didn't regulate his emotions with his own small children, I doubt he'll be able to now that he's older. Especially since he doesn't seem interested in trying.
Just let go of that idea. It's hard not having that support system, sure. but you and your kid will be fine with only supervised visits, even none at all. I know we looked around when ours was born and saw 0 out of 4 grandparents we were comfortable with leaving him alone with. its been 7 years and at this age, 1 grandparent is OK for short babysitting jobs but that's it. Better than the alternative!
To crystallize what others have said. You don’t have to agree with you father, you just need to trust that he won’t do things you don’t want him to do.
Wow, it is one thing that he validates using violence against his own children, but are you seriously saying he is thinking about using violence against his grandchildren as well?
For that he needs to see him first. Sadly there's no real interest anyway.
Then why waste the energy?
I'm so sorry. It's so hard to even conceive of this. I hope your kiddo has a good grandfather option on the other side of the family. I sort of always figured that even people who don't like kids would still like meeting and spending *some* time with their grandkids. It's like all the fun parts of kids with none of the responsibilities or consequences, how does anyone not want that? Both you and your kiddo deserve better. I'm sorry.
Last year I stopped trying to invite my father around (who was abusive) or suggesting we meet-up for recreational activities . I tried my best, I thought our relationship had improved in the 9 years we have been living apart, but nah. Not worth it. I am moving on. Cordially. I mean you need to know when to quit. It’s tough at first but pays off big time!
I agree with you. Sometimes it is not worth the arguments But here it is someone who is directly affecting their children. I would fear that they could do the same for my children in the same situation.
Luckily not right now. Seems like zero interest atm.
I am sorry to hear that. are you interested in him having a relationship with your children? If so, be not afraid to set up rules and actively engage in that. If not, it might be for the better.
Definitely. But I'm tired of fighting for it if he does not move one step in my direction.
Then stop. Blood is not family, hard work, love, time, companionship that makes family. If he doesn't want to bother then stop.
I'd suggest: "we're not discussing it, is been proven to be ineffective and harmful, if you won't promise not to hit my kid I won't leave him alone with you"
The conversation with my mother. In the end I said, "Smacking teaches the child that the correct response to poor behaviour in others is to commit and act of violence." She mumbled something about smacking us kids and us turning out OK, and I replied that my heartrate and breathing speed up if I have to tell her anything that has gone wrong in my life because my monkey brain is terrified she will hit me for it. To help her save face I told her we just didn't have the research on the long term effects of smacking in the 90s.
There are multiple studies that show that physical punishment is bad for children. Below are some examples and references. Corporal punishment predicts cognitive problems like lower IQ scores, and it does not effectively promote long-term positive behaviors in children. Corporal punishment is associated with increased aggression, delinquent and antisocial behavior, mental health problems, and risk of being physically abused in childhood. It is also linked to more aggression, criminal and antisocial behavior, mental health problems, and abuse of one's own spouse or child in adulthood. https://www.child-encyclopedia.com/social-violence/according-experts/corporal-punishment The research indicates it has "no benefits" and "many risks" for children's adjustment. https://americanspcc.org/the-dangers-of-physical-punishment-for-kids/ is a good summary https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8386132/
>The research indicates it has "no benefits" and "many risks" for children's adjustment. That's an incredibly good one-line summary for the argument against spanking. It's much better than just saying that spanking is *bad* without elaborating. "You and I were both spanked and we turned out fine, it's fine!" "Maybe, but that doesn't change the fact that spanking has zero benefits to it and many risks."
I also didn't turn out fine. Most of us didn't. We have major problems with addiction to drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, TV, video games. These are all escapes from our internal shame of having parents who didn't meet our developmental needs. We grew to believe WE were bad, not just some behaviors. This is fairly well researched and was presented in the 1980s on PBS. We know it's wrong. But there's a huge denial about ever thinking our parents weren't saints. It's not about blame, but if we're unaware we can't change it either. https://auresnotes.com/summary-homecoming-john-bradshaw/
We also don’t have a generation of unspanked kids to use as evidence that it works though.
It's not like 100% of previous generations *were* spanked though? That's how these studies exist. The prevalence of each mindset is changing. Both will still exist.
What pisses me off is that “you turned out fine” is an entirely external observation that has literally nothing to do with our relationship or how I felt about them. I used to be terrified of my dad and got really great at hiding things/lying to them to avoid punishment, I wonder if that’s “fine”
"yeah that's just your opinion there."
Seriously, why are you even bothering then. You already seem to know exactly what he is going to say. You already said he has no interest in spending time with your kid. Why all this wasted energy?
Absolutely, it’s been shown to be ineffective and harmful to a child’s psychological development, Wales and Scotland here in the UK have taken it one step further, making it illegal to “smack” your child as a form of punishment.
I was part of a focus group regarding this law in Wales! I spent several hours in the Senedd discussing the master. I'm a teacher as well as a feather, so I have really strong feelings about this. There were plenty of people who thought that smacking was an acceptable form of punishment, but none of them had children that were *currently* children - they were parents of grown adults. Anybody that was my age was either undecided or strongly opposed to any form of corrosion punishment.
Well if you are really a feather then no one feel it, even if you did smack someone….. lol I had to take advantage of the typo lol
Oooo I have this rehearsed... *takes deep breath*: Multiple longitudinal studies across countries, cultures, and socioeconomic groups show a very high correlation between corporal punishment and violent behavior, poor impulse control, and lower cognitive function.
I always go with, if you fuck up at work are you happy getting hit to teach you to be better? Because if you think that pain isn't the best teacher for you why do you think it is for a child
Yeah I could try this the next time he does not act like I think he should.
And if he still disagrees spank him. Youre bigger and stronger now so that makes you right according to his logic
Spanking didn’t teach me shit. I used to piss my dad off on purpose and run away from him through the house howling…. then he’d catch me and spank the shit outta me. I’d stop for the moment but I’d definitely do it again later.
I’m gonna play devils advocate, because this is reddit I’m going to expect 100 downvotes and emotional backlash. But again.. devils advocate. I think light discipline is mostly fine, with some exceptions. Straight hitting is not really effective. I don’t mean hit your kid cos he had two cookies instead of one, I mean if your kid pushes another kid off the tramp and breaks his leg, if your 12 year old tries to stab his brother with a knife.. like extreme cases It could be warranted. But fuck, for people who make the argument to hit your kids they do seem to give out hidings way too easily. I would argue that saying “it’s never ever ok” is wrong.
My parents spanked in the 90s and their minds did change about this. Where we settled was that spanking was state of the art for a traditional Asian immigrant household at the time (these ideas took time to propagate without the internet) and since then the evidence has made it abundantly clear to us that spanking has never worked and they’re sorry. Nobody’s parents are perfect, but some listen to evidence and advice from their own better-informed boomer friend networks and come out changing their minds. This is all to say if your dad is dying on that hill, you can chalk it up to them personally being an asshole and don’t let the generational thing confuse the issue.
You have to speak to the things they value. Boomers value 'facing the facts' and 'taking responsibility' and the only reason they support spanking is because it speaks to those values. "You know what spanking taught me, dad? It taught me how easy it was to hide shit from you. I never listened, I never 'learned my lesson, I just got good at hiding it from you. I don't want to teach my kids to hide stuff. I want to teach them to come forward, make the hard decision to do the right thing, to be brave, and to take responsibility for their actions. If I spanked them I'd just teach them what you taught me: that its better to sneak around to get what you want than to be responsible.' Then if that doesn't work take off the gloves for the following conversation: "Hitting a child is something weak people do when they know the kid got the better of them. It's something stupid people do when they're not smart enough to think of something that will actually work."
I think I’ve spanked my son once after he almost ran into the street. My wife a couple times.
You need to up your game if you've only spanked your wife a couple times.
Well maybe she needs to run into the street more often!
>"yes, we did. But did it harm you?" The answer is "Yes, it did." Because of course it did. So do some self reflection, figure out what damage it did to you, and tell him about it.
Exactly. Did it harm you? "Enough to have remembered it as a way of child rearing that I don't want to emulate myself, yes"
To hit another person under "normal" circumstances is a crime Corporal punishment is not legal (depending on country, of course) Corporal punishment has been shown to not be effective (citation needed) Add in the disproportionate relationship (parent is physically much bigger/stronger) Add in the power dynamic (child can't leave or fight back) Add in the fact that the child may well not understand why they're being hit Add in the ludicrous argument that "this is done out of love" If boomer doesn't get that, there's no hope for them.
This is such a strange thing to witness becuase where I live spanking is absolutely the norm. That being said, it's nowhere near what it was like when I was a boy.
Interesting to know where you come from and how family generally is lived there.
Southern Louisiana. Fogive me, but I don't understand the part about "how family is generally lived there."
Yeah, English is not my first language. Let me phrase it: Do you still have contact to your parents when your older? Do you meet them at eye level? Who makes decisions in your family when more than 2 adults are involved? And a personal one: are you happy with how your family turned out?
1. Yes; they live down the road from me. They're very involved with our lives. We have our differences, but that's just family. If your asking if I have any resentment of them... I'd say no(ish). 2. Oh yeah, I was taught to look absolutely everyone dead in the eyeballs. 3. My wife and I are pretty good at coming together to reach a decision, but the hard and fast rule is: if one of us makes a decision first, the other backs it until we can talk about it. No one has veto power, I'd say. I guess that's not true.... we have veto power depending on how important the issue is to us, if that makes sense. It might just be the kind of system that only works because we have been together for so long. 4. I mean... yeah, I'm happy. But, I don't really tie that happiness to my parents. That is to say, it's nice to have them around, but my main source of happiness and fulfillment in this world come from my wife and kids. And, no bullshit, I was just telling my wife the other day that I am the happiest ive ever been in my entire life.
To 2 and 3: I was talking about how your parents respect you, your wife and the decision you both make. Like where and how to celebrate Christmas together. Are they debating and discussing your input or do they insist that things like that are done the way they want to.
Okay, let me go back and reread your questions with this in mind. 2. Yes, I look my mother and father in the eyes. But I'm getting the sense that this means something else in your first language. like.... "Are you equals?" If that's the question, then no, we are not equals. They are my parents. I still call them ma'am and sir. If they need help, I will help them before anyone except my wife and children. If they have a request, all things being equal, I'll help them out. 3. As to the decisions.... I had to think about this for a while. I'd say this - both of my parents ask me for my availability. That is, they don't tell me to do anything, and they haven't for maybe 20 years. If there is some larger family plan, they don't steamroll me or my wishes. But.... if there is something important to them, and I am unable to accommodate, they will go go ahead without me. Does that all make sense? It seemed like the cleanest example of how this plays out. In the end, I think it's a fairly healthy relationship. To be fair though, I believe it might be like this because I'm a fairly assertive person.
Besides wand SansSariph correctly states, you could try different things. First off, if true, you could answer is his queation about it haring you with yes? I would argue that using violence to punish or het your way is a sign of weakness as a parent. It just instills fear in them and teaches them that instrumental violence is oke. It also doesn't teach them anything else about their behaviour.
I've never been able to find anything supporting corporal punishment for kids. No research or studies of any kind. Usually just some guy who says your kid will be a pansy or spoiled if you don't hit him and that he was hit as a kid and turned out fine. He will then complain about how his wife is divorcing him for "anger issues" which he says are bullshit and totally made up.
Did you ask your dad what other things were different 60 years ago? His parents probably went to segregated schools. Nobody thought smoking was bad for you. We're women allowed to have a bank account yet? Things change.
"that's something different. Soccer is still played with 11 people and 1 ball."
I'm glad you bring up soccer because Major League Soccer has multiple new rule changes literally going into effect today. Even soccer changes lol
You're right. It was just a imaginary sentence my dad would respond. Thanks for the next argument.
I'm not saying it is right, and my wife and I are not disciplining our son this way, but I do remember getting hit when I was being disrespectful to my mom. To be honest, looking back on it, I probably would've gotten hit in the face by someone else down the road had it not happened.
Yeah, I am on the fence. I was spanked and I definitely deserved it, and the fear of spanking kept me in line. No one was trying to injure me lol. But the entire process of spanking was a big deal and I think it was done “right” by my parents… …with that being said, I think I’d rather die than make my daughter cry so. This is confusing.
Which is, in my opinion, way better than being hit by someone who should love you.
German here. Hitting kids under any circumstanced by anyone (including parents) is child abuse and is illegal here and will get CPS involved if found out. It may very well have caused psychological damage to you, and even if it didn't or the damage is minor, why 1) risk long-term psychological damage and 2) negatively impact your and your fathers relationship and 3) cause you pain, when all of this is unnecessary and there are clearly better and less lazy alternatives.
I hope you answered ‘yes’ when he asked if it harmed you!
Well, 2 of his 3 children are rarely talking to him. Obviously that wasn't evidence enough. I did say yes.
Good on you. Personally, I wouldn’t trust him with your kid.
My mother and I had this argument once as well. At some point I stopped trying to convince her and just told her that the way I wanted to raise my sons is the way we are going to do it. No exceptions, period. I told her she can accept it and be a grandmother, or not and she doesn't need to see them. It helps that I'm not very close with her so it wasn't an empty threat and I would have lost zero sleep cutting her off from the kids forever.
The only way to win is not to play
Some stuff isn’t worth discussing. Yes it’s outdated. No that generation isn’t going to admit it.
Imagine a world where we didn't outgrow the attitudes of the past? I'm GenX and my dad would only wear a seat belt when I was in the car "to set a good example". Its different from the spanking case, but still a clear example of times changing.
What confuses me is that they rather die on that hill than admit they were wrong and clearly not knew it better, which is not that wrong at all!
My dad weirdly posts shit like this on Facebook all the time, like "people are afraid to spank their kids these days" and "My parents hit me, and I turned out fine!" But he never once spanked us or raised his hand to us. He's actually quite a gentle person. So it's more confusing than anything.
I distrusted authority figures for a long time. To me, punishment then was not about correcting behavior.
Once someone cites their X years of experience to me as the only justification for something with no other explanation, I automatically discount them as a viable source. Years of experience does not equate to effectiveness or guarantee the best results. I've done certain things wrong for years. We all do. But simply stating that you've done it for many years isn't the same as saying you've done it well, effectively, or efficiently. There are obviously exceptions. If I take my car to my mechanic thinking I have a problem with a rotor and he says he believes otherwise based on experience, of course I'm going to trust that there's a good chance he's correct. But in this case, I'm not a mechanic. You and your father are both parents, and you have the added benefit of being the product of his parenting. You get experience from both sides.
My mom slapped me across the head with a hairdryer for “taking too long” brushing my teeth when I was in middle school. If either of my parents put their hands on my kids then I’d probably take out quite a few years of frustration on them the next time I seen them. Don’t get me wrong, I love my parents. We have a much better relationship now that I’m an adult and can set my own boundaries and tell them to leave, but the setting boundaries part is what allows us to have a relationship
Flipping heck, how long were you brushing your teeth for?
Well considering I’m 25 now and have never had dental problems and she’s 43 and has dentures….. longer than her 🙃
😁😁😁
"as valid as your experience is, it's not the only way of doing things, there are other ways of raising kids and we're going to do it our way." That's it. That's all that's needed.
Is the child old enough to understand what they did wrong? Then you use words and explain to them what they did wrong and set expectations for future behaviour. If they aren’t old enough to understand what they did wrong then fucking hitting them isnt going to make them understand either. Hitting a child for doing something “wrong” is just an excuse for you to exercise power over them and be a cunt. If you can’t grasp that very simple concept then you don’t get to be part of their life.
“Y’all also thought smoking was a good idea too”
It's about trust. "Dad all i remember from it is making a big mistake and you hurting me worse than I'd been hurt by an adult. As I got older it made me want to hide things from you not come to you for help and advice."
Controversial but I do agree that physical consequences immediately after crossing some boundaries can be effective. However, I don't believe that parents should be the one to demonstrate that. They can teach it but demonstrating it is entirely different.
Plenty of comments supporting that spanking is not good, what is an effective alternative? Spanking happens when they kids is behaving badly, we get overwhelmed and the spanks do resolve the conflict in the moment. What do you do instead? What will be be positive reinforcement that doesn’t harm them for the rest of their lives?
I’ve had this talk with my dad. My answer was simple. You might have done it that way but this is my child and what I say goes. I don’t care for your opinion on the matter. Hit my child and it’s the last time you’ll ever see them
This.
My mom tries to tell me shit all the time. Any time she claims she knows better I just tell her if she had done a good job we wouldn’t be arguing right now so clearly she fucked up. Works every time.
I have parental rights, you don’t. And I plan to exercise my rights. Don’t act on your beliefs about spanking with my kid. We can debate your beliefs but they don’t make any difference for my kid. Arguing with your Dad implies that his beliefs matter. You should make sure that his beliefs do not matter. Then you can have a pointless debate just for the fun of it. Elizebeth Gershoff is the expert on spanking. You can provide him with her stuff. The most effective methods for reducing behavior problems as measured in randomized controlled trials are mostly about using positive consequences to fill the day with desirable or acceptable behavioral habits that replace or crowd out the problem behaviors. The most useful positive consequence is attention. No punishment or at most mild punishment is required, no more than grounding for a day. Spanking can be counterproductive because it is a form of attention that can function as a positive consequence. It is never needed for habit formation and it can create bad habits. Spanking has been obsolete based on scientific research since around 1970. It was probably already dated when he used it.
So does he beat your mom or his coworkers too?
My mom's dead and he was working most of his life alone. But I see where youre going.
Why don't you just hit him?
Trust me, I'm close.
tbh sometimes pain is the only language a child understands. i don't like doing it, but i certainly don't have an issue correcting my children physically if they're running their mouths and don't respond to other punishment. and to tell the truth, they're very good kids and know where the line is. which is more than i can say for some of their mouthy shitty friends
Yeah they're studies suggesting different linked in other comments. I trust them more. But you do you.
You hit my kids I hit you. By your own logic that will teach you to stop.
You will literally never win an argument with them. Especially if they’re your parent. They just can’t see you as an intellectual equal. No amount of research or proper arguments can change their mind and never will. Firm boundary setting is all that will work. I’ve heard it said many times now that you have to “gentle parent” your own parents once you have kids.
> I raised 3 children. "And the researchers and doctors who say this is damaging and abusive have studied tens of *thousands* of children. You don't know anything." And if he cannot respect these boundaries, he cannot see his grandkids. That's the end of the conversation. Your kids, your rules.
It's honestly not even worth arguing about with our parents for a couple of reasons. First, they have the anecdotal "evidence" that is you and their other children. Obviously you're alive and not a serial killer, so how bad can it be? Secondly, think of what it means for them to actually believe that it's wrong. It means they have to admit to themselves and everybody else that they were abusive to their children for their whole childhoods. That's a HUGE emotional burden for somebody to accept, and one that most people aren't even capable of assuming without serious work. They're simply incapable of considering it objectively because of the terrifying implications. We can do better for our kids, but it would be a VERY hard journey to actually convince our parents of what we know now. As long as they're not hitting your kids, I say just leave it be.
This is a good approach and I apply it more broadly. I tell them "you did what was thought to be best at that time, we want to do what's considered best today. Maybe our children will do it differently with their children, but at least I'll know I did what was believed to be the best one could do." That way, you're giving them an easy way out as long as they accept today's standards for their today's responsibilities. When I say more broadly, this is about food and the age they eat it at, medicine, sleeping arrangements, etc. - the best practices do indeed change and eventually what we did will likely be considered wrong to some extent.
That's a great way to frame it. I'm going to remember that
I’m with you here! Also OP and everyone constantly saying “hitting” doesn’t help things. Just say spanking…I was hit as a child and spanked….they are two different things.
They aren't though
One can say that they're both *wrong* and still say that there is a difference. I was very infrequently spanked as a child. It was *never* in anger, never suddenly and never in a situation where I didn't know damn well beforehand that what I was doing would likely end in my getting spanked. I was *never* hit anywhere on my body other than that. Never suddenly, never with anything other than calmness from my father. Never in anger. Never with a fist or anything other than the "standard" spanking action on a clothed rump. I adore my parents to the point that I feel guilty when I read stuff on Reddit about how much crap other people had to / have to put up with from their parents. I'm headed to their house today to help fix some stuff because they're just great people who I love being around. I'm unbelievably blessed. To suggest that a handful of spankings through the peak of my childhood jackassery was not different than if my father had gotten mad at me and punched me in the face on the regular is wildly unfair to all the people whose dads *did* get mad at them and punch them in the face on the regular. You can consider both to be *wrong* and still acknowledge that the two things are *different*.
I disagree. Spanking is hitting. They are the same thing. Surely there are different degrees of hitting, but they're all hitting.
It seems like we're having 2 different arguments here and they're getting conflated a bit. If your point is that you prefer to use the same word for: 1. a non-sudden non-anger-driven open hand to the butt and 2. a sudden angry closed fist to the face then that's one thing. I wholeheartedly disagree and I think that there's a reason we use different words for different degrees of things in order to avoid confusion. But u/sxybmanny2 said that he was spanked *and* hit as a child and they were different things and you said they are not different things. [https://i.imgur.com/mSrV3Qz.png](https://i.imgur.com/mSrV3Qz.png) Saying they are not different things would necessarily mean that a kid would be neutral between the two in the same way that they'd be neutral between pancakes and flapjacks because those are in fact not different things, just different words for the same thing. I don't know *any* child who would be neutral between 1) and 2) in the list above whether or not we use different words for them. As an adult who was occasionally spanked as a kid I'm extremely grateful to have lived in a home where I *never* wondered whether I was going to be hit. I recognize that #2 would have been deeply traumatizing and scary in a way that #1 never was.
Spanking is one type of hitting. That means that spanking and hitting are, by definition, not different things. One is a general term, and the other is a specific term within that general term. Spanking and punching, or spanking and kicking, are different things, but they're all different variations of hitting. If you spank your kids, you hit them. The people who want to you to think that hitting their kid on the butt deserves a different name and different category from hitting them literally anywhere else on their body are the ones who want to hit their kids without the stigma that comes with saying you hit your kids. And anybody who's been spanked absolutely has the right to tell people that their parents hit them.
>Spanking is one type of hitting. That means that spanking and hitting are, by definition, not different things. Squares are one type of quadrilateral. That means that squares and quadrilaterals are, by definition, not different things. Except they *are* different things. Humans are one type of primate. That means that primates and humans are, by definition, not different things. Except they *are* different things. A subset of some set is not the same as the set, nor is it the same as all the other things in the set. And if the only "hitting" you received as a child was a spanking, and you go to someone who was beaten (punched, kicked) as a child, and tell them, "I know how you feel, my father hit me too", and then in subsequent conversation you reveal that your parent never hit you in anger and never hit you other than a spanking on the bottom, I don't know if that person who was in the emergency room a dozen times as a child is really going to feel like you had the same experience.
This is perfect, thanks. Humans are primates. Squares are quadrilaterals. Spankings are hitting. Where am I losing you? Neither one excludes the other. If a kid says their parents hit them, it could be spanking. If they say their parent spanked them, that's definitely hitting them.
I give up. Whatever you say, a spanking and a nose-breaking punch to the face are totally the same thing and you should sign yourself up for a support group for adults who were battered as children because someone spanked you. As someone who's worked with *actual* battered and abused children your pathetic equating of the two things disgusts me. All I can say is with reasoning skills like yours I really hope you're not actually an engineer. Or "enginer".
OP put a sidenote to clarify he was talking about spanking. Telling his dad that he hit him is way different than telling my dad he hit me. One dad spanked his kid like a billion of parents have done and the other one punched me in my face which isn’t as common.
It sounds like you trying to say that there are different degrees of hitting, which I would of course agree with. But spanking is still hitting. People who insist otherwise are the ones who are trying to separate their bad behavior from other behavior.
Two things can be true: 1) Spanking is absolutely a valid disciplinary measure 2) Never spank another person's child, even your kid's kid. I hope you can come around to understanding 1), and that your father can come around to understanding 2).
It really isn't a valid method of discipline, it's basically teaching your kids that it's OK to hit someone when you run out of ideas. You're right on point two though.
Yes - you are not always right and “because we are your parents” is not an excuse to act like an arse Currently not seeing my parents due to this, and they refuse to apologise because they refuse to see why what they have done is wrong and instead tried to double down.
To argue with a boomer is to experience true futility. It is like trying to convince the waves to stop crashing onto the sands. Like asking the sun not to set.
“I know you hit us and we turned out okay. We have decided our kids will not be spanked. Can you promise to abide by that for us?” If he says yes, great but check with your kids. If he says no, don’t leave your kids alone. Doesn’t matter what he thinks now, they aren’t his kids.
Scrolled through almost all the comments love this one the most. This is the reason my mother in law didn't get to see her first grandchild for the first 3 years of her life because she wouldn't or couldn't understand that me and my wife are the parents not her we set the boundaries for our children Wich aren't many. Our kids are 17,15 and 13 and they come talk to us about anything they want. They were disciplined growing up but they are also given there say in everything. It's not a we are the parents so you get no sya because your a kid household.
[удалено]
Good advice, thank you.
It wasn't okay when he was parenting you either. Abuse is abuse. Hitting is abuse. There is no lesson a child learns from being hit except "might makes right" and "oh wow this person who is supposed to love me is hitting me, I must be bad"
Pick your battles! It’s not that you’re right and he’s wrong, some battles just ain’t worth fighting. My mom and I use to argue all the time about her grandchild and how I parent. It just ain’t worth it if the other side ain’t even willing to understand your argument or point. Control what you can and let everything else run its course.
Just look up physical punishment studies in the vein of Applied Behavior Analysis. There’s plenty of actual data that has been gathered regarding the lasting behavior changes related to physical punishment and punishment in general.
This is exactly where I’m at with my folks, but in regards to screen time. No means no. Our parents “experiences” do not trump that statement. If I said no TV, and my kids tell me about all the shit they watched with you - you aren’t seeing them. Boundaries are there for the kids, not the adults. Teaching them how to cultivate loving and respectful relationships is not shown by plopping them in front of a screen as “care” and hitting them when they behave like children. I look at how I turned out and how my relationship is with my parents now to give me bearing on how to flip the cycle. Listening to your kids is number 1 and it’s fucking HARD. Harming your kids because you don’t want to have the necessary skills, is not acceptable. Stay stalwart Dad.
I can’t ever imagine hitting my kids. I don’t mind scaring the shit out of them with words and angry seriousness if they do something really terrible, though.
“Yeah and I always kind of hated you for that dad. Not gonna do the same to my kid. So go fly a kite if you can’t be on board with how we roll.”
Look everybodys stories and chilhoods are different, but here is I handled when my parents disagreed with how I was disciplining (or not) my children, Rather than focus on how they raised me, I would counter with how they were raised. Both my parents were raised on farms and doing dangerous jobs but they would never let me do stuff like that when I was a kid because each generation builds on the ones before. When you make it about how you do it vs how they did it it makes it seem like they were wrong. They were just dong the best they can and you better believe when our kids are raising their own children they will have plenty to criticize on how we did it. When my parents were kids they were disciplined with a belt, when they had me, I got some slaps on the butt, when I disciplined my kids they got timeouts. Remind your parents its not about no discipline and letting kids do whatever they want , its about what works. They changed from how they were raised and now you are building off of that.
We have never hit or spanked our boys it's an outdated practice and good it's hopefully gone in the end.
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
Why do you think so many people in their 30s go to therapy? And why are so many there because of their childhood?
Pick on someone your own size
Keep in mind you are arguing against both his image of his own parents and his image of himself. It’s an incredibly difficult thing to argue with. That’s why so many people are “proud” of being hit or hitting their kids. They cope/rationalize it as a necessary form of love+discipline, partially attribute their successes in life to it, and bemoan modern “soft” parenting as the reason behind our societal ills. Rather than try to change a fundamentally loaded emotional position, you’re better off just getting him to agree that you get to decide how your kids are disciplined and he is never to spank/hit them. And that your kids will tell you if he does. I think most people who have your dad’s view on spanking are still able to respect these kinds of boundaries that their adult child sets.
Have you considered slapping him across the face when you two disagree?
Physical violence is not the solution for teaching kids how to behave. Saying it’s OK in a family situation is a direct lead into domestic violence being normalized.
They also used to shoot liquid mercury up your dick hole to treat syphilis. Things change and what used to be considered a good idea or acceptable may not be anymore.
My viewpoint on hitting: Are they old enough to understand what they did wrong/why they’re being hit? No? Hitting them won’t correct if words won’t. Yes? Use words and explain. All hitting is guaranteed to do is make the kid fear, be angry at, or resent their parent. All hitting will teach is frustration can be addressed with violence. I explained it that way to my boomer parent who smacked me out of frustration more often than I can count. They cried and apologized (30ish years after the fact but it was a genuine apology)
I’d just say “Dad, you’re fucking wrong on this one, and if you ever put hands on my kid that’ll be as far as we go together.”
Is he arguing for the sake of hitting *your* child, or is this just a discussion about parenting philosophy?
You are already framing the argument wrong. To argue that hitting children today is wrong is to concede that hitting children in the past was correct. Also "Did it harm you?" is a poor argument because it is arguing that something that doesn't harm the child is ok to do. Would it be ok for you to not teach your child how to read? I mean, you aren't hurting them and they will probably figure it out later anyways. Spanking is ***literally illegal*** in many countries. Every study says it is in effective **at best** and out-right harmful and counter productive at worse. There are a lot of parenting philosophies and a lot of choices to make but spanking is never the correct one.
Kids that are hit are statistically inclined to have lower SAT scores.
Your childhood sounds similar to mine. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/#:~:text=Numerous%20studies%20have%20found%20that,in%20the%20context%20of%20punishment. https://www.gse.harvard.edu/ideas/usable-knowledge/21/04/effect-spanking-brain https://www.apa.org/act/resources/webinars/corporal-punishment-gershoff.pdf If these studies from multiple respected sources detailing how harmful physical punishment is won't change his mind, nothing will. The only thing that might work to make sure he never strikes your child is just a blanket "If I ever find out you've laid an unkind hand on my child you'll never see them again." The best I ever got from my parents was "everybody did it, we were just doing our best. I'd like to see you do any better"
It's not obvious to me.
It only teaches them that hitting things when they dont get what they want is okay.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3447048/ This is old but good evidence against spanking. Why not discuss with him using science? There are heaps of studies which show spanking has lasting impacts.
How about simply avoid such arguments? Different generations will have different mentalities toward things, that's just how it goes.
Hitting a kid teaches them that they need to obey people stronger than them. That's it. At best you'll instill adherence to "the rules". Other methods teach kids empathy and morality and how to do the right thing even when there aren't obvious or immediate consequences for doing the wrong thing.
60 years experience? Does this guy think he's a daycare worker? Does he still feel entitled to flopping you over his lap to spank you for arguing with him over this? You tell him that one experience does not define reality for everyone. If he argues against that, then I'm sorry but your children will never be safe with him.
I’m so glad I won’t ever have to have this. Neither of our parents hit us
You don't gotta win an argument. You just gotta say how it's gonna be in your own house. That, perhaps, the lead-infested boomer will respect.
Yes! It did! It made me afraid of you and I had to work through my trauma to be able to stand up to the drill sargant monster inside you and not become that monster myself. - what I would say to my dad in a similar argument given that he's used these EXACT same points. I try not to hate him, it's against my religion, or dishonor him, but the trauma.... It's real.
Having children, fumbling through raising them or letting them raise themselves, in no way shape or form means anyone is a professional. The idea that many parents have that they did it and there's no way they could've done it wrong because the kids survived is outrageous.
lol Reddit is such a cuckhole. If they’re too young to understand, never spank. If they understand, and don’t learn from a thorough explanation, there will be repercussions.
If they're old enough to understand all you're teaching them is that violence is the answer to gaining compliance.
You mean like… how the world works? Whether it’s direct or indirect, violence is always the answer to non compliance. Look the most important thing to the development of a child is presence, calm and direct execution of daily life tasks and frequent informal communication. These studies are all garbage, to have a true experiment or study, you need a constant. How on earth can you have a constant while the study is on humans which none are the same, spankings are not the same, the perception of why, or the perception of the one doing the spanking is not the same, etc. I was issued an ass whooping daily, had no father, and was always in trouble. My IQ is 136 (relevancy based on these “studies”) and I’m wildly successful by most measures. Probably has something to do with my aggressive nature.
>My IQ is 136 I bet you heard my eyes roll
/r/iamverysmart
This is a tale as old as time. I got my ass spanked multiple times and did not suffer any harm. Whatever those studies suggest non apply to me or any of the other kids I grew up with within my entire family. Not all kids are the same and same applies to families. Abusing your kid is not the same as getting spanked. Hitting your kids on a daily basis as part of their diet is unacceptable behavior. I have 3 kids 7,12,14 and they each have gotten 2-3 good ol spanks in their lifetime and all 3 are normal kids,well behaved and well mannered. You as a parent choose how you want to raise and discipline your kids, your relatives don’t need to accept that but they have to respect it.
I will never understand people who speak out in support of hitting children. It's such a useless and unnecessary thing to do. There's nothing logical about it. The only reason you think hitting children is 'good' is because somebody hit you.
Here in the UK, Scotland and Wales have outlawed “hitting” children as a form of punishment, there’s a huge amount of evidence and data that shows smacking children has an adverse impact to their psychological well being, I presume other countries will likely follow this stance, as you rightly say, it’s an outdated form of punishment that shouldn’t be used.
The classic is "You obviously didn't turn out okay if you think it's okay to hit children"
I’m so glad my father whipped me! I had some friends that their parents never did. My life was so much easier because I learned doing the wrong things will hurt you when I was young. Me friends found out doing the wrong things will hurt you as an adult. My father loved me enough to do his best to help me have an easier, more productive, and happier life! I thank him so much for that!!!!!
I come from the deep dark countryside of Southwest England - the wooden bakers spoon was the choice of weapon used to terrorise us. Never once did it stop me from doing “naughty” things, but it sure as hell made me resentful of my father - who was more psychologically abusive than he was physically. Of course there is a “let it be” conspiracy of silence about it in the family - though thankfully he has heeded my declaration of “not permitted to give our unsolicited parenting advice”.
For him to see hitting kids as wrong it would mean he has to see that he did wrong. And that's a far harder argument to win.
Well I think you're wrong. Shall I slap you in the face until you agree?
Here's just my opinion. Have I hit my kids? No because I haven't felt the need to. Was I spanked as a child? Yes, under certain circumstances. Am I against spanking? No. I believe, under certain circumstances, that spanking can be appropriate. I think today too many parents try to do this "gentle parenting" and their children are little a-holes because they are not scared of the consequences for their actions. Too many parents want to be best friends with their children instead of being a parent. You child, in my opinion, should be scared of you some times if they do something wrong that they know is wrong. I'm not saying they should be fearful of their parents 24/7, but when they do something very bad they should be scared of the consequences. It's more of a respect thing. I see it so often in my profession where kids think they can do whatever they want because they know they parents are just going to say "it's okay johnny tell me how you're feeling. It's okay to feel angry johnny, don't do it again".
Mine is Brexit... It's been a massive screw up. And my dad voted for it... However he has changed his tune a little. Last time we spoke he said had he known it was actually going to happen he wouldn't have voted for it. He expected it to fail but for a bit of a wake up call for the government. I told him next time he votes on something only vote if you actually want that thing to happen... Seriously for Brexit they should have had a cut off age of 60 years old