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If only Renly actually made that argument. He didn’t (he argued it was because he’s better suited to the title and never tried to say he had a legal claim), and no one else really made that argument in-universe either other than Davos and Stannis’ reply to it was essentially “well they already hate me” (which imo is accurate… people already really don’t like hm because he’s a massive killjoy).
People still confused about Renly’s claim while Varys screams that power resides where men believe it does. Renly’s claim is Aegon’s claim: “Who’s gonna stop me?”
And yet nobody important supported him. Mace Tyrell was the only lord of note and the second Renly died they went back to supporting a quite frankly Evil regime that will eventually kill them all. Knights of summer will not make a weak man king just because he's popular.
Only lord of note??? He had every single stormlord supporting him not one went over to stannis when Davos sent him to find allies. And every single reachlord even the bloody Florents accepted the tyrells backing him as king even when they hated the tyrells having the reach
That may be true (I don’t really think it is), but that doesn’t make it poorly thought by the author, it makes it poorly thought out by the *character*. Renly is portrayed as ambitious and arrogant. Making a move for kingship without necessarily having all of the support needed to hold it is very much in character for someone like him.
Renly was posturing so the Starks and Tullys would support him. Even offered Robb the chance to keep a royal style in order to save face. And tbf, it was working, Catelyn was in Renly's camp to forge such an alliance.
All while King's Landing was starved and turned against the Lannisters, and Tywin's armies were repeatedly smashed by Robb.
I mean he judged that claim legitimacy didn’t matter at all, and he was right. If he had made that claim, would his story have ended any differently? It wouldn’t have helped him at all.
He honestly would have had a great claim to the throne if he did make that argument: but alas it seems that Stannis’s eligibility has nothing to do with his faith in the eyes of Westerosi law (true king all the way)
Jaeherys was the one who instituted the “responsibility” of the king being defender of the faith specifically because of Maegor. Maegor didn’t break the rule cause it wasn’t a rule yet
King Aegon of house Targaryen, the first of his name, king of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, lord of the seven kingdoms and protector of the realm was given that title by a High Septon.
You're gonna have a hard time convincing me that the faith weren't part of the crown for another hundred and fifty years.
Consider the fact that Aegon married his two sisters. This was opposed vehemently by the Faith and they did everything in their power to prevent it. The fact that it was not prevented shows that they had limited power over the Throne.
They sided with Aegon because he conquered the whole continent (Dorne aside…). Over the next decades and centuries they wheedled themselves closer and closer to power.
Ageon married both his sisters before invading Westeros. The faith was never in a position to stop it.
Then Aenys did nothing except die.
Then Maegor killed the faiths army the Stars and Stripes, Jaehaerys Banished the proud brothers to the Wall, and just 2 kings later Aegon II being annointed by a septon was used as a partial justification for Rhaeynera not being queen.
What did the faith do to have this be such an important detail for Aegon II if it wasn't important beforehand? The Faith did nothing but lose power between Aegon I and Aegon II. The faith are just a tool to cement people in positions of power, they have no ability to cement people themselves.
I don't think the faith really gained more power until the High Sparrow. They've always been consistently important, but they've had no involvement really at all in deciding who is King. I mean Baelor ruled for 2 years and was mostly fucking around, I don't think that's enough justification to give Renly any sort of claim over Stannis.
He's by far the most pragmatic and competent political operator in the first two books. He's so far ahead of everyone else in the WOT5K that the literal God of his world (GRRM) had to step in and kill him with magic to keep the story interesting. You don't have to like him but you have to respect the hustle.
I've been working on a megapost about him for awhile. I think a big reason why readers overlook him is he dies so early in the series, and we don't get any POV's from him or any of his friends. The POV's we do get (Ned, Cat, and Sansa) just think of him as a shallow child, (or swoon about how handsome he is in the case of Sansa) but the truth is he's running circles around the Starks, the Lannisters, and his brother. The Lannisters admit as much in one Small Council scene shortly before he is shadowbaby'd.
Renly's strongest soldier here, Renly is a pretty fascinating character as far as his role in the story goes, because he is meant to represent one of the major themes of the series: power resides where men believe it resides.
Renly shows up, breaks all the sucession laws of westeros, and is still the most popular claiment of the iron throne by far, to the point even beyond his death he is more well loved than the supposed lawful rulers. It's a way to show how fragile the fundations of westeros are, the peasants don't care about who is the king as long as they have food and peace and the lords don't care about who sits the throne as long as they gain more power.
Also he is a pretty fun character in his own right, he has good quips and I like how much appearences play into his character, every one is always talking about how he is just a spoiled prince playing at being king, but he seems to be a pretty shrewd politician, he almost ends the main conflict of the books twice, first by advising Ned to take the throne before cersei can, and second by allying himself with the tyrells and offering peace to the north. In other words, he is just pretty cool
People also seem to forget that he was in the Siege of Storm’s End when he was like 6-8. So as much as people are like “oh he’s never known hardship”… he did have like a year there where he probably had to eat one of his favourite puppies to keep from starving.
And he was kind to Brienne. I’ll always love him just for that alone.
Renly was so gallant, dancing with her so she could save face. That feels like something out of Jane Austen, Mr. Knightley dancing with Harriet Smith. No wonder she fell in love with him.
Don’t support him for the throne but let’s be honest: if he succeeded to the throne he’d probably be the most popular and loved king of the last century. He’s pragmatic and knows how to play people politically but isn’t cruel or showing any signs that he would be incompetent or misuse his power. The biggest fear from a Renly reign would be him overspending for feasts and tourneys, which Robert already does and Joffrey already did for his ridiculously large wedding (but the backing of the reach would help him economically just like it helps the Lannisters after he dies).
If Stannis ends up succeeding he would be a hard, but a just, king that would likely be more than capable (more capable than anyone else) of cleaning up the realm after TWOTFK. I Love Stannis but absolutely nobody else does, he’d be respected and feared by nobles who would probably be put in their place but the small folk wouldn’t love him with his draconian punishments and actions he’d probably take like outlawing prostitution, disrespecting the faith of the seven, etc
I think Renly ought to have claimed Lord Protector status instead of Kingship, fought the Lannisters, then held a Great Council of his supporters to determine who is King, most likely resulting in him. That would have legitimized his reign and undermined the other claimants.
Renly was a meathead that thought he should be king because he was popular and had the biggest army. He played at war while literally at war. If he actually fought Stannis the only part of army that'd do anything would be the one under the command of Randyll Tarly while the rest is under the command of his fellow meatheads.
Well while no rule of this has been made in lore.. it does work out looking at the church of england and the monarchy only passing to non catholics not bad
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If only Renly actually made that argument. He didn’t (he argued it was because he’s better suited to the title and never tried to say he had a legal claim), and no one else really made that argument in-universe either other than Davos and Stannis’ reply to it was essentially “well they already hate me” (which imo is accurate… people already really don’t like hm because he’s a massive killjoy).
Let's be honest Renly's claim was never properly thought out by George, he just needed some goon to kill with a spooky ghost baby.
People still confused about Renly’s claim while Varys screams that power resides where men believe it does. Renly’s claim is Aegon’s claim: “Who’s gonna stop me?”
R'hllor will stop him.
Filthy demon gods usupring the will of the masses 🤮🤮
The Seven working through R’hllor to ensure that Andal tradition is followed.
Based
Classic sevencel mental gymnastics
the light reflected off of any of the seven's aspects would eclipse the pitiful reflections of power men and foul beasts worship as 'gods'
Mace's is the only will of the masses that wanted Renly.
And yet nobody important supported him. Mace Tyrell was the only lord of note and the second Renly died they went back to supporting a quite frankly Evil regime that will eventually kill them all. Knights of summer will not make a weak man king just because he's popular.
Only lord of note??? He had every single stormlord supporting him not one went over to stannis when Davos sent him to find allies. And every single reachlord even the bloody Florents accepted the tyrells backing him as king even when they hated the tyrells having the reach
I mean he must’ve had someone important supporting him if he had 70,000 men.
That may be true (I don’t really think it is), but that doesn’t make it poorly thought by the author, it makes it poorly thought out by the *character*. Renly is portrayed as ambitious and arrogant. Making a move for kingship without necessarily having all of the support needed to hold it is very much in character for someone like him.
Renly was posturing so the Starks and Tullys would support him. Even offered Robb the chance to keep a royal style in order to save face. And tbf, it was working, Catelyn was in Renly's camp to forge such an alliance. All while King's Landing was starved and turned against the Lannisters, and Tywin's armies were repeatedly smashed by Robb.
I mean he had the biggest army in the realm so I think he had enough important people
My man had more soldiers than the North and the Lannisters combined 💀💀💀
Damn bratty Younger Brother ...! !! ! Usurping Throne 💢💢 Need shadow baby correction!!
Shhhhhhh let me make tl;dr screeds on Renly and his claim and not chalk it up to George being like “eh good enough”.
Renly's claim was by Right of Conquest, the same that put the Baratheons on the Throne after Roberts Rebellion
Renly’s philosophy is might makes right. He had the largest army and wanted to be king, so he decided he was King. What a prick.
TBF, is there an adult Baratheon we meet who isn’t a prick?
Lyonel Baratheon was a good dude.
Touché
At least bastards like Gendry, Edric, and Mya seem like cool dudes.
They’re not adults yet… but I have hope for them. (I love the Barstheons but man are they assholes)
All fun and games till he takes the throne and then someone else manages to have a bigger army.
I mean he judged that claim legitimacy didn’t matter at all, and he was right. If he had made that claim, would his story have ended any differently? It wouldn’t have helped him at all.
I mean Renly *couldn't* make that argument. He declared for himself weeks before Stannis converted to Rhillor.
He honestly would have had a great claim to the throne if he did make that argument: but alas it seems that Stannis’s eligibility has nothing to do with his faith in the eyes of Westerosi law (true king all the way)
Defender of the faith came after aegon. It only came up with jahaeryas. Maegor was aking and definitely not a 'defender of the faith'
So Maegor was never king because he didn't defend the Faith?
Jaeherys was the one who instituted the “responsibility” of the king being defender of the faith specifically because of Maegor. Maegor didn’t break the rule cause it wasn’t a rule yet
The Faith didn’t become enshrined into the monarchy until Baelor the Blessed
King Aegon of house Targaryen, the first of his name, king of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, lord of the seven kingdoms and protector of the realm was given that title by a High Septon. You're gonna have a hard time convincing me that the faith weren't part of the crown for another hundred and fifty years.
Consider the fact that Aegon married his two sisters. This was opposed vehemently by the Faith and they did everything in their power to prevent it. The fact that it was not prevented shows that they had limited power over the Throne. They sided with Aegon because he conquered the whole continent (Dorne aside…). Over the next decades and centuries they wheedled themselves closer and closer to power.
Ageon married both his sisters before invading Westeros. The faith was never in a position to stop it. Then Aenys did nothing except die. Then Maegor killed the faiths army the Stars and Stripes, Jaehaerys Banished the proud brothers to the Wall, and just 2 kings later Aegon II being annointed by a septon was used as a partial justification for Rhaeynera not being queen. What did the faith do to have this be such an important detail for Aegon II if it wasn't important beforehand? The Faith did nothing but lose power between Aegon I and Aegon II. The faith are just a tool to cement people in positions of power, they have no ability to cement people themselves. I don't think the faith really gained more power until the High Sparrow. They've always been consistently important, but they've had no involvement really at all in deciding who is King. I mean Baelor ruled for 2 years and was mostly fucking around, I don't think that's enough justification to give Renly any sort of claim over Stannis.
I’ll go to my grave thinking about Renly’s 🍑
what is the actual motivation for renly fans to exist (genuinely not even a mannis diehard i just wanna know why)
He's by far the most pragmatic and competent political operator in the first two books. He's so far ahead of everyone else in the WOT5K that the literal God of his world (GRRM) had to step in and kill him with magic to keep the story interesting. You don't have to like him but you have to respect the hustle. I've been working on a megapost about him for awhile. I think a big reason why readers overlook him is he dies so early in the series, and we don't get any POV's from him or any of his friends. The POV's we do get (Ned, Cat, and Sansa) just think of him as a shallow child, (or swoon about how handsome he is in the case of Sansa) but the truth is he's running circles around the Starks, the Lannisters, and his brother. The Lannisters admit as much in one Small Council scene shortly before he is shadowbaby'd.
Renly's strongest soldier here, Renly is a pretty fascinating character as far as his role in the story goes, because he is meant to represent one of the major themes of the series: power resides where men believe it resides. Renly shows up, breaks all the sucession laws of westeros, and is still the most popular claiment of the iron throne by far, to the point even beyond his death he is more well loved than the supposed lawful rulers. It's a way to show how fragile the fundations of westeros are, the peasants don't care about who is the king as long as they have food and peace and the lords don't care about who sits the throne as long as they gain more power. Also he is a pretty fun character in his own right, he has good quips and I like how much appearences play into his character, every one is always talking about how he is just a spoiled prince playing at being king, but he seems to be a pretty shrewd politician, he almost ends the main conflict of the books twice, first by advising Ned to take the throne before cersei can, and second by allying himself with the tyrells and offering peace to the north. In other words, he is just pretty cool
People also seem to forget that he was in the Siege of Storm’s End when he was like 6-8. So as much as people are like “oh he’s never known hardship”… he did have like a year there where he probably had to eat one of his favourite puppies to keep from starving.
And he was kind to Brienne. I’ll always love him just for that alone. Renly was so gallant, dancing with her so she could save face. That feels like something out of Jane Austen, Mr. Knightley dancing with Harriet Smith. No wonder she fell in love with him.
Don’t support him for the throne but let’s be honest: if he succeeded to the throne he’d probably be the most popular and loved king of the last century. He’s pragmatic and knows how to play people politically but isn’t cruel or showing any signs that he would be incompetent or misuse his power. The biggest fear from a Renly reign would be him overspending for feasts and tourneys, which Robert already does and Joffrey already did for his ridiculously large wedding (but the backing of the reach would help him economically just like it helps the Lannisters after he dies). If Stannis ends up succeeding he would be a hard, but a just, king that would likely be more than capable (more capable than anyone else) of cleaning up the realm after TWOTFK. I Love Stannis but absolutely nobody else does, he’d be respected and feared by nobles who would probably be put in their place but the small folk wouldn’t love him with his draconian punishments and actions he’d probably take like outlawing prostitution, disrespecting the faith of the seven, etc
To be burned at the stake
This isn't even accurate.
Everyone knows that you can't be King if the Pope excommunicates you.
Counterpoint: the Seven are cringe.
The Seven are so based, They don’t even need magic to get the people to believe in them.
Renlychads rise up
I think Renly ought to have claimed Lord Protector status instead of Kingship, fought the Lannisters, then held a Great Council of his supporters to determine who is King, most likely resulting in him. That would have legitimized his reign and undermined the other claimants.
Inb4 Seething Stannis the Mannis supporters come comment.
Based and Renlypilled.
Renly was a meathead that thought he should be king because he was popular and had the biggest army. He played at war while literally at war. If he actually fought Stannis the only part of army that'd do anything would be the one under the command of Randyll Tarly while the rest is under the command of his fellow meatheads.
I thought you meant the Elder Brother from the Quiet Isle and I was honestly ready for that theory
Well while no rule of this has been made in lore.. it does work out looking at the church of england and the monarchy only passing to non catholics not bad
Imagine thinking that the Baratheons have any right to the throne when House Targaryen still exists