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To everyone saying Ned should have told Cat, your forgetting that the love for her children is the most defining part of her character and she would definitely be willing to throw Jon under the bus if she thought his presence would be a threat to them. Ned was smart to not tell her.
Or that people who knew Cat would recognize that something wasn’t right if she showed the bastard son of her husband the slightest affection. Not telling Cat did more to protect Jon than anything else Ned could have done.
I'm not y'know, one of those crazy Cat haters, I think she's one of the most compelling characters from the first three books, but man it was fucked up how she treated Jon.
I get why he didn’t tell her, but like we with hindsight know that Catelyn would have fiercely defended Jon and treated him right, so long as he didn’t interfere with her children’s succession had she known that Ned hadn’t cheated on her and was defending his sister’s son.
If anyone thinks otherwise, remember the Tully words: Family, Duty, Honor
Like I understand in the first years of their marriage but by the time of AGOT I’m having trouble seeing Catelyn learning the truth then hightailing it to KL to spill the tea to bobby
It would’ve made EVERYONE’S lives easier
I think that by that point her hate for Jon was so ingrained that she would not be able to let go of it.
Ned was effectively screwed. Tell her too early and she would likely spill the beans. Tell her too late and the hate is too strong in her.
She literally had to fend off an assassin trying to murder her 7 year old child who was in a coma. Her response to that situation has nothing to do with how well she’d be able to keep a secret under different circumstances.
Okay? Half the reason people believed it was cause of how much cat resented Jon. Even then people were suspicious. Would be weird if she embraced the child he had w another woman when he literally insulted her by bringing Jon to winterfell. Plus cat would have definitely used Jon as a bargaining chip to get her daughters back, this is the same woman who let Jaimie go. That or she would have gone to castle black and had the other houses rally behind Jon for the iron throne. Tbh not telling Cat was Neds smartest move he’s ever made
I was highlighting the situation in response to you saying she’s “unhinged,” as if that was just her personality and not her acting in response to an extreme circumstance. She’s actually a smart lady and tends to only make irrational choices when pushed to her absolute limit. I think Cat would also be smart enough to know not to embrace Jon in a public setting. If she knew he wasn’t a bastard she would likely have more affection for him so I doubt she’d just use him as a bargaining chip or she’d at least be loyal enough to Ned to not go against his wishes.
It’s totally in line her character to use people she already doesn’t like/trust (ie. the Lannisters)as bargaining chips but I can’t think of any textual example indicating that she would be willing throw her own nephew under the bus and betray her own family like that.
She threw Robb, the support of his lords, and his position in the war under the bus for Arya and Sansa.
She already is worried that Job and any line he might have could threaten her own children when Robb floats naming him heir, she would probably be even more concerned and reveal to Robb that Jon 1)isn’t even a son of Ned so don’t name him heir and 2)he potentially has a greater claim on the entire realm as a son of Rhaegar
Not saying she *would* do any of that but the bombshell that Jon is a long lost prince with a strong claim to the throne is something that Ned rightfully kept close to his chest
She made a last-stitch effort to try keep her family together in a way that conflicted with Robb’s interests, that isn’t the same as throwing him under the bus and isn’t comparable to using someone’s life as a bargaining chip. The main reason she was so bothered by Robb suggesting it was because she resented Jon for being Ned’s bastard, we have no idea how she’d react knowing the truth.
I’m not criticizing her. What she did makes sense from her viewpoint.
But, within her ability, she commanded someone to free Jaime and take him away which ended up hurting her own son. If a scenario came up where outing Jon benefited her or her own children, she would do it, regardless of the fact that he is her nephew (by law only)
I’m saying that Robb is a poor example because she would clearly never intentionally do something that would put him in harm’s way. She made a bad choice, yes, but she would never have done so knowing what the consequences would be.
Ned should definitely have told Cat the truth. But I think it's a bit understated just how traumatized Ned must be from his whole experience leading up to, and during the rebellion. It would be incredibly hard for someone to open up about that, especially in noble Westerosi society.
What Ned should have done was send Jon to foster with Howland or with the Manderlys (Wyman offered to didn't he?).
Cat mentions/reasons in the books that she expected Ned to sleep around during the war because "that's how things are" during war. And possibly having a bastard. What she didn't expect was for Jon to be raised at Winterfell alongside her own children.
If Ned had sent Jon to foster with another house, which seems to be custom in the north, she would be able to go "out of sight, out of mind" and more or less ignore Jon existing. Possibly treating him like some distant cousin to her own children if they have to meet. And Jon could be given a small keep or marry into his foster family. Or be allowed to form a cadet branch.
But Ned's trauma meant that he had to keep Jon close to know that he was safe. And that set the stage for Jon and Cat's negative relationship.
"Yes. I have a bastard. He's fostering at White Harbour out of respect to my wife. Heard that he's learning how to command a ship last he wrote."
Agreed, though I think he should have also told Cat as well as foster him with Howland. The neck is probably the safest place in all of Westeros for someone who wants a life under the radar, and Howland would've already known the secret since he was at the tower of joy with Ned. Frogaryen Jon accompanying Jojen, Mira, and Bran north of the wall would be an interesting alternate timeline. But the story George went with is ultimately the best I think.
Had he sent Jon to foster with Howland he definitely could have told Cat further down the line. Even if he had fostered with the Manderlys as well.
Shit. He could have gotten Benjen in on it and you know that Ben would have agreed to not join the Watch if he was told to raise Lyanna's boy at some holdfast that Ned could offer him.
Ned was by and large a calm and collected man. But there were certain aspects of his life were his emotions and trauma really controlled him. Jon's raising at Winterfell clearly being one such thing.
Tbh he should have acted like Jon was Benjen’s bastard since he’s going off to the watch anyway.
“Take one for the team, benny” didn’t even have to tell him R+L=J just act like he didn’t want to upset catelyn
Benjen was like 12-14 at the Harrenhall Tourney, possible sure but I doubt people would believe a 13/12 year old would get a girl pregnant at a major royal event when he is constantly around his family. Maybe you could push it with a 14 year old Benjen but any Northerner who knew Benjen could probably tell that was a lie by just how shy Benjen is.
He wasn’t sure. But it’s less that she’d wake up one day and decide to have Jon murdered by Robert and more that a situation could present itself where Jon’s existence could put her family in danger.
I mean she already had Rob and she’s not that dumb and loyal enough not to fuck her husband and son, and she wouldn’t probably hate Jon in this case maybe would even be sympathetic to a poor rape baby orphan
It’s not really that he though she would tell, but just that she was a stranger to him at first, and why would he tell a stranger his deepest secret? Remember, she was betrothed to his older brother before he died. He married Cat, got her pregnant, and immediately went to war. When he came back she was basically a stranger to him and his wife out of duty alone. The love and trust in their marriage happened AFTER he came back with Jon, and AFTER she showed obvious resentment towards Jon for being a “Ned’s bastard”. By the time he could have trusted her with this secret, it was obvious she hated Jon and he probably thought her hatred protected Jon and his lie better than anything else. Plus, the best way to keep a secret is to not let ANYONE know about it, not even your wife
Cat was really a piece of shit to Jon, but the worst part is that everything says that Jon is OLDER than Robb, lady he didn't even cheat on you c'mon.
"But she would have been better to him if she knew he was his nephew and not his son" I mean, she would be nicer to him for sure but the bar is in hell.
>Cat was really a piece of shit to Jon, but the worst part is that everything says that Jon is OLDER than Robb, lady he didn't even cheat on you c'mon.
Except she wasn't grrm himself confirmed that. She just ignored him. Jon had a better life then 99% of bastards out there and his arc in the first book is about how much of a spoiled brat he is. He probably is older then rohb though
Yup, Jon has the life of an average hightborn but that's thanks his father and despite of Catelyn, this doesn't make any of her ways towards Jon anything softer, she was completely abusive to him and didn't hide how much she hated him, despite him being an innocent child, if it wasn't for Ned she very clearly would make his life actively worse.
Wdym “everything says that Jon is older than Robb”. Yeah that’s probably true but it won’t be by more than a few months and when they’re that close in age no one would doubt Ned when he says that Robb is older.
Ashara and the Fisherman's Daughter are apparently the strongest rumors in-universe and both looks to be reasonably earlier than Ned and Cat's weeding and while it wouldn't be notorious if he was a small kid in a baby it would be (probably, at least).
But I was being a bit petty lol, if something it looks like the chronology of the Rebellion is a bit off by Martin's mistake or there's a minor firstbookism there since even Ned speaks of it like if Jon were a product of infidelity.
Welcome to /r/darkwingsdankmemes! Just a brief reminder that this subreddit is focused only on the **written** *ASOIAF* universe. Comments that include discussion of the HBO adaptations will be removed, and serious or repeated infractions may result in a ban. Moderators employ a zero tolerance policy. # Users should assume that *any* mention of the show is subject to removal. *If you see a comment which violates the rules, please [use the report function](https://i.imgur.com/Uqjnwss.png) to notify moderators!* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/darkwingsdankmemes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The only mfer to take it to his grave that he *didn’t* cheat on his wife
Renly never technically cheated on his wife.
Tbf, is it cheating if Margaery knew Renly was gay and was fine with it?
no that'd be a semi open relationship since loras is involved
is it even a marriage if it’s not consummated?
Not according to the High Septon.
To everyone saying Ned should have told Cat, your forgetting that the love for her children is the most defining part of her character and she would definitely be willing to throw Jon under the bus if she thought his presence would be a threat to them. Ned was smart to not tell her.
Or that people who knew Cat would recognize that something wasn’t right if she showed the bastard son of her husband the slightest affection. Not telling Cat did more to protect Jon than anything else Ned could have done.
Her hatred of him was a disguise. Wouldn’t it be odd if a noble lady loved her lord husbands bastard?
I'm not y'know, one of those crazy Cat haters, I think she's one of the most compelling characters from the first three books, but man it was fucked up how she treated Jon.
I’m a huge Cat apologist but totally agree, Jon didn’t deserve any of that
I get why he didn’t tell her, but like we with hindsight know that Catelyn would have fiercely defended Jon and treated him right, so long as he didn’t interfere with her children’s succession had she known that Ned hadn’t cheated on her and was defending his sister’s son. If anyone thinks otherwise, remember the Tully words: Family, Duty, Honor
How hard would it really have been to say “Cat, that’s my nephew, not my son”, would that have been so tough?
Like I understand in the first years of their marriage but by the time of AGOT I’m having trouble seeing Catelyn learning the truth then hightailing it to KL to spill the tea to bobby It would’ve made EVERYONE’S lives easier
If you want to keep a secret, you don't tell people about it. Especially a dangerous secret.
Idk, I feel like Cat 100% would’ve told Littlefinger after Ned died and the entire situation would be fucked regardless
She didn't see Littlefinger after King's Landing. How and why would she tell him?
Nah, Cat is horrible at maintaining a gameplay/strategy. She made so many blunders. I would have never trusted her with such an important secret.
I think that by that point her hate for Jon was so ingrained that she would not be able to let go of it. Ned was effectively screwed. Tell her too early and she would likely spill the beans. Tell her too late and the hate is too strong in her.
As soon as people find out look what happened. Cat was kinda unhinged, just look at the whole Tyrion fiasco. She would’ve definitely spilt the beans
She literally had to fend off an assassin trying to murder her 7 year old child who was in a coma. Her response to that situation has nothing to do with how well she’d be able to keep a secret under different circumstances.
Thank you!!
Okay? Half the reason people believed it was cause of how much cat resented Jon. Even then people were suspicious. Would be weird if she embraced the child he had w another woman when he literally insulted her by bringing Jon to winterfell. Plus cat would have definitely used Jon as a bargaining chip to get her daughters back, this is the same woman who let Jaimie go. That or she would have gone to castle black and had the other houses rally behind Jon for the iron throne. Tbh not telling Cat was Neds smartest move he’s ever made
I was highlighting the situation in response to you saying she’s “unhinged,” as if that was just her personality and not her acting in response to an extreme circumstance. She’s actually a smart lady and tends to only make irrational choices when pushed to her absolute limit. I think Cat would also be smart enough to know not to embrace Jon in a public setting. If she knew he wasn’t a bastard she would likely have more affection for him so I doubt she’d just use him as a bargaining chip or she’d at least be loyal enough to Ned to not go against his wishes.
Red wedding doesn’t happen if Jaime is still in stark custody. She doomed Robb’s cause
she obviously didn’t know the red wedding was going to happen 😭
no but even a dummy knows that releasing an extremely valuable prisoner is a bad idea
Yes? She made a dumb misrp
Then as soon as her own children were in danger she would have used it as a bargaining chip
It’s totally in line her character to use people she already doesn’t like/trust (ie. the Lannisters)as bargaining chips but I can’t think of any textual example indicating that she would be willing throw her own nephew under the bus and betray her own family like that.
She threw Robb, the support of his lords, and his position in the war under the bus for Arya and Sansa. She already is worried that Job and any line he might have could threaten her own children when Robb floats naming him heir, she would probably be even more concerned and reveal to Robb that Jon 1)isn’t even a son of Ned so don’t name him heir and 2)he potentially has a greater claim on the entire realm as a son of Rhaegar Not saying she *would* do any of that but the bombshell that Jon is a long lost prince with a strong claim to the throne is something that Ned rightfully kept close to his chest
She made a last-stitch effort to try keep her family together in a way that conflicted with Robb’s interests, that isn’t the same as throwing him under the bus and isn’t comparable to using someone’s life as a bargaining chip. The main reason she was so bothered by Robb suggesting it was because she resented Jon for being Ned’s bastard, we have no idea how she’d react knowing the truth.
It conflicted with everyone’s interests, including her own. Releasing Jaime was an insane blunder that completely doomed them.
Yeah I know, I’m just explaining how it’s not accurate to say she threw Robb under the bus just because she went against his wishes
I’m not criticizing her. What she did makes sense from her viewpoint. But, within her ability, she commanded someone to free Jaime and take him away which ended up hurting her own son. If a scenario came up where outing Jon benefited her or her own children, she would do it, regardless of the fact that he is her nephew (by law only)
I’m saying that Robb is a poor example because she would clearly never intentionally do something that would put him in harm’s way. She made a bad choice, yes, but she would never have done so knowing what the consequences would be.
Ned should definitely have told Cat the truth. But I think it's a bit understated just how traumatized Ned must be from his whole experience leading up to, and during the rebellion. It would be incredibly hard for someone to open up about that, especially in noble Westerosi society.
What Ned should have done was send Jon to foster with Howland or with the Manderlys (Wyman offered to didn't he?). Cat mentions/reasons in the books that she expected Ned to sleep around during the war because "that's how things are" during war. And possibly having a bastard. What she didn't expect was for Jon to be raised at Winterfell alongside her own children. If Ned had sent Jon to foster with another house, which seems to be custom in the north, she would be able to go "out of sight, out of mind" and more or less ignore Jon existing. Possibly treating him like some distant cousin to her own children if they have to meet. And Jon could be given a small keep or marry into his foster family. Or be allowed to form a cadet branch. But Ned's trauma meant that he had to keep Jon close to know that he was safe. And that set the stage for Jon and Cat's negative relationship. "Yes. I have a bastard. He's fostering at White Harbour out of respect to my wife. Heard that he's learning how to command a ship last he wrote."
Agreed, though I think he should have also told Cat as well as foster him with Howland. The neck is probably the safest place in all of Westeros for someone who wants a life under the radar, and Howland would've already known the secret since he was at the tower of joy with Ned. Frogaryen Jon accompanying Jojen, Mira, and Bran north of the wall would be an interesting alternate timeline. But the story George went with is ultimately the best I think.
Had he sent Jon to foster with Howland he definitely could have told Cat further down the line. Even if he had fostered with the Manderlys as well. Shit. He could have gotten Benjen in on it and you know that Ben would have agreed to not join the Watch if he was told to raise Lyanna's boy at some holdfast that Ned could offer him. Ned was by and large a calm and collected man. But there were certain aspects of his life were his emotions and trauma really controlled him. Jon's raising at Winterfell clearly being one such thing.
TELL HER THE TRUTH NED
"No." * Ned
Refuses to elaborate
Leaves head in a basket.
quite the basket case
Tbh he should have acted like Jon was Benjen’s bastard since he’s going off to the watch anyway. “Take one for the team, benny” didn’t even have to tell him R+L=J just act like he didn’t want to upset catelyn
And why would Ned have found Benjens bastard in the south? Did he ever go south after Harrenhall? That would just raise more questions.
Act like he found it at Harrenhal. Only other person with him was Howland and he’s a recluse who would keep a secret regardless of what it was
Benjen was like 12-14 at the Harrenhall Tourney, possible sure but I doubt people would believe a 13/12 year old would get a girl pregnant at a major royal event when he is constantly around his family. Maybe you could push it with a 14 year old Benjen but any Northerner who knew Benjen could probably tell that was a lie by just how shy Benjen is.
it didn't need to be benjen's he could claim he was Brandons bastard a man known for womanizing and he kept him a last memory of his brother
Telling Cat that he was the bastard of her former fiance that she was actually in love with at the time would probably not have been that smart.
+ brandon was the heir so she would see jon as an even bigger threat to her children
Like seriously why didn’t he tell Cat? Why was he so sure she would snitch on him and Jon?
He wasn’t sure. But it’s less that she’d wake up one day and decide to have Jon murdered by Robert and more that a situation could present itself where Jon’s existence could put her family in danger.
I mean she already had Rob and she’s not that dumb and loyal enough not to fuck her husband and son, and she wouldn’t probably hate Jon in this case maybe would even be sympathetic to a poor rape baby orphan
It’s not really that he though she would tell, but just that she was a stranger to him at first, and why would he tell a stranger his deepest secret? Remember, she was betrothed to his older brother before he died. He married Cat, got her pregnant, and immediately went to war. When he came back she was basically a stranger to him and his wife out of duty alone. The love and trust in their marriage happened AFTER he came back with Jon, and AFTER she showed obvious resentment towards Jon for being a “Ned’s bastard”. By the time he could have trusted her with this secret, it was obvious she hated Jon and he probably thought her hatred protected Jon and his lie better than anything else. Plus, the best way to keep a secret is to not let ANYONE know about it, not even your wife
Letting Jon go to the NW mustve felt bittersweet. The whole Ned and Jon thing is so tragic and beautiful.
Would have been so interesting to see them talk the next chance it could have happened.
I initially thought this was about Rhaenyra's and Alicent's kids lmao, specifically Jace and Daeron
Cat was really a piece of shit to Jon, but the worst part is that everything says that Jon is OLDER than Robb, lady he didn't even cheat on you c'mon. "But she would have been better to him if she knew he was his nephew and not his son" I mean, she would be nicer to him for sure but the bar is in hell.
>Cat was really a piece of shit to Jon, but the worst part is that everything says that Jon is OLDER than Robb, lady he didn't even cheat on you c'mon. Except she wasn't grrm himself confirmed that. She just ignored him. Jon had a better life then 99% of bastards out there and his arc in the first book is about how much of a spoiled brat he is. He probably is older then rohb though
Yup, Jon has the life of an average hightborn but that's thanks his father and despite of Catelyn, this doesn't make any of her ways towards Jon anything softer, she was completely abusive to him and didn't hide how much she hated him, despite him being an innocent child, if it wasn't for Ned she very clearly would make his life actively worse.
Wdym “everything says that Jon is older than Robb”. Yeah that’s probably true but it won’t be by more than a few months and when they’re that close in age no one would doubt Ned when he says that Robb is older.
Ashara and the Fisherman's Daughter are apparently the strongest rumors in-universe and both looks to be reasonably earlier than Ned and Cat's weeding and while it wouldn't be notorious if he was a small kid in a baby it would be (probably, at least). But I was being a bit petty lol, if something it looks like the chronology of the Rebellion is a bit off by Martin's mistake or there's a minor firstbookism there since even Ned speaks of it like if Jon were a product of infidelity.
Ned forgot that women are cruel and unforgiving creatures
Stone