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Yeah it's one of those gender norms that's still in flux. My gay friends always tell me how hetero dating has different norms because the always go dutch and neither party feels slighted/cheaped out.
I’m bi and I promise you neither is easier than the other. If you say this in total seriousness then either 1 you have a misogyny problem 2 you might be a little gay
This is what I’m inclined to believe. That said, some problems suck more to some people. If this was on r/hypotheticalquestions, I would like to suffer the problems of a homosexual relationship for a day in exchange for the problems of my heterosexual relationship. I might even be willing to swap those problems for longer.
No, that doesn't mean necessarily that he has a misogyny problem. The majority of men do struggle dating women and figuring them out.🙄 If you call that misogyny, then maybe you're the sexist one?
I’m just saying that the problems in a male-male intimate relationship seem simpler as opposed to more complex. Perhaps it would be easier to realize you two weren’t right for each other due to the typically more direct communication styles of well-adjusted men, but that’s no guarantee.
At the end of the day, you are only dealing with male psychology as opposed to female psychology. One type of psychology versus two kinds seems to be simpler almost by definition.
Why does everyone online conflate simplicity with ease? I never said anything about it being easier. If I am a little gay, ok. I’m pretty sure homosexuality is on a spectrum for everyone who isn’t some 6-sigma on the curve.
EDIT: I love how hateful people constantly call everything they disagree with misogyny when a man says it about relationships. I’ve never abused a woman but I’ve been physically, emotionally, financially, and sexually abused by multiple women. Two of them left me with literally nothing across the board (money, self esteem, etc). Maybe i’m not misogynistic but rather jaded.
Clearly you never dated a guy...
A lot of men have toxic behaviour in relationships. The power balance is more equal in gay relationships, but that doesn't mean they are more healthy.
The reason you don't see how (most, not all) men are toxic is you never suffered from it. I don't say women are perfect, and I agree with OP, but you can't just point at the other sides' flaws without reflecting on yours. There are a lot of things to change in dating and relationships, for both men and women, for the happiness and safety of everyone
I always find myself ordering the cheapest option when I'm being paid for. I always bring my wallet and always offer to pay my own, but men always refuse. It's the oddest thing. A lot of them have known my financial situation is poor, which may contribute as well
Maybe. But I have been asked out by a woman, and while I was in the bathroom she went ahead and paid for the whole thing.
There wasn't a second date, but as it turns out that was because I ordered a beer with the meal, and she wanted a guy who didn't drink alcohol at all (or at least, that's what she said when I asked "Oh, why not?" to her refusal of a second date).
It's a modern contextualization for the way things have always worked, which leaves room for a little more equity in paying for dates if the woman is the one taking the lead and does want to pay. Most of the men I know in real life who've have a problem with this only take issue because they feel like it's infantilizing or emasculating for the woman to pay for the date, not because they feel like they're being tricked into paying for a date.
Really it just depends on the people. If you want to split dates then be clear about that, and you'll eventually find someone down with that. If you're okay paying for dates then enjoy taking someone out and treating them to a night to remember.
There's obviously still a lot of expectation of men to initiate early in dating and to get things rolling, but the "who takes the lead pays for the date" system does work well once you're seeing each other regularly. If she wants to go for a particular meal or go see a show and take you with her then she can pay for it, and if you want to go watch a hockey or baseball game then you can cover it.
If you're dating someone who just never initiates dates and says "when I initiate then I'll pay", just ask why they don't initiate dates and have a talk about it. It's not super complicated. If they react poorly then dump them.
Word to the wise: women will always be able to find some dude to pay for their dates. If you find someone willing to split dates with you, hold on to them for dear life. Never go into a relationship with the expectation that there will be an equivalent rate of effort or money spent. You’re asking for a bad time if you do.
This right here. While I don't think that women that are happy to pay are as rare as it seems (source: I am one) some of us have had bad experiences as a result. Some men will feel slighted by even just the offer. In those cases I will generally accept the generosity but then not opt for a second date. I think it might take women who are generally okay with splitting or taking turns a little while to be sure the man they're seeing isn't gonna be weird about it.
(In an ideal world, none of us should have hang-ups like this, of course, but we do, we live in a society, etc.)
Yeah, I'm a woman, but that's bs. I like and understand that men usually ask out women. But having to pay because you asked someone out is bs, in my opinion. If they say yes, they can pay. You don't say to your friends, "wanna go out for dinner/ lunch," and then you have to pay either, right? So why would it be different if it was a date? Those women just don't want to pay or split. They want like a 'provider'. To each their own, but I prefer splitting or switching up who's paying if you're going on more dates/ in a relationship.
Those rules only still exist because they're perpetuated. Women universally choosing to act like the equally capable human beings that they are would fix that. But so many are only interested in equality when it's convenient for them.
You can but usually don’t. Some men insist on paying, so that’s totally on them. Some women will split the first date with no problem, some will split the first date, but because of it there will not be a second. If a woman is like that, then it’s a bullet dodged, but it’s still a gut punch, nobody likes rejection.
I’m of the opinion that who ever gets paid for should be grateful, should appreciate it, not to the point where they’re obliged to anything, but a huge proportion expect it.
Lots of people claim to be cool with splitting the bill on the first date until it happens. Principles don’t always fall in line with feelings.
No, that’s not the norm with friends either, you just weren’t taught proper manners.
If I invite a friend out to somewhere specific, as in I alone picked the place and invited them to join me then I do pay. Always. Same with them. That’s standard good manners. You’re the one who invited them and picked the activity, it’s implied you pay in that situation, doesn’t matter if it’s a friend or a romantic interest. You invited them to join you somewhere that you alone planned. You pay. And this applies even if you checked with them about the restaurant or whatever.
If I just want to see my friend but I’m not necessarily inviting them to a specific place, I just ask them to hang out. And we decide together and each pay our own way. So I’ll concede to you that “wanna get dinner?” can mean let’s pick a place together and each pay for ourselves. But “let me *take you out to dinner”* definitely means you pay regardless of the platonic nature of your relationship. Asking with that specific phrasing is implying you’re treating them.
So the way you ask matters. If you say “can I take you on a date?” You are literally stating your intent to pay. It’s rude asf to plan a date and invite someone to attend then make them pay their own way. That’s egregiously poor manners. If you really want to go Dutch then you ask them in a way that makes it clear it’s Dutch. “How do you feel about meeting up and seeing if there is chemistry?” Then you decide together where that is. But it needs to be clear that it’s not a date that one person is taking the other on, it’s a mutual activity and you are both paying your own way. IMO it’s best to explicitly state your intent to go Dutch.
If it’s something expensive like a concert then I say “would you like to get tickets with me to go to this show?” I don’t say “would you like to go to this concert with me on this day?” The former makes it clear we’re getting tickets together. The latter implies you already have tickets and you are asking them to accompany you.
See the difference?
Also the argument “this is how it is with friends, so that’s how it should be with someone you are romantically interested in” is stupid. They aren’t a friend. They are someone that you are asking to take their time to consider you as a romantic prospect. You aren’t asking them to be your friend so don’t treat them like they’re a friend.
If a man asked me on a date, planned it then surprised me with the check then I would interpret that as him telling me he isn’t interested. Because he really isn’t if he doesn’t even think the time that *he* asked *me* for (not the other way around) is even worth a meal lol.
It’s okay for women to have higher standards. You don’t have to be a cool, pick me girl that doesn’t expect basic manners or effort.
When I’m in a relationship/partnership, it’s 50/50, or even more on my end. There’s been times I carried him and times he carried me, financially and otherwise. But a man who is asking me to consider him as a potential partner before there is a relationship established should put in effort. Women have risks in sex and dating men don’t. We already do most of the domestic labor, childcare labor, reproductive labor, emotional labor, etc. And now we’re telling men they don’t even have to cover the date THEY asked us on?? Come on girl lol. The bar for men is low enough as it is.
Edit: Im assuming you’re young, but as a woman in my 30s I can tell you with 100% certainty that a man that is head over heels for you will put in so much effort to make sure you have a great time if you allow him to do so, and he will never complain about covering dates in the beginning stages of the relationship. He will want to and think you’re worth it. And he’ll appreciate it more when you match that effort in response. You don’t want to fuck with the men who think paying for a date means a woman is an entitled gold digger or that the woman they want to get to know isn’t worth a real date. Those men rarely make good partners.
Also understanding the etiquette of who pays and when doesn’t mean you want “a provider.” That’s ridiculous
Every partner and every good friend I’ve had, the “who pays” has never been an issue at all since leaving college — like usually more about fighting over who gets to pay. Lotta broke ass losers in this sub 😂
>Lotta broke ass losers in this sub 😂
Damn, calling someone a broke ass loser because they wanna split is crazy, you sound like a fun person to be around.
Agree with you 😂😂 my friends and I go to great lengths to steal the check to pay for the group like it’s a game, haha. “I ain’t’ paying for you on the first date, pay for yourself” is so cringey to me!
no one is manipulating you to do anything. You're completely free to ask them to pay their half. It's just the norm that it's the man pursuing the women. Its a grand gesture to pick up the meal or drinks or whatever. Grand gestures make you look good. It's really that simple.
Your post is a meta-commentary on how women justify it in comment threads on Reddit.
I don’t think the Reddit thread itself should exist. I don’t think women should justify why men should pay. A simple appeal to tradition is enough. We just do. Unless we don’t want to see her again.
I checked his posting history. This guy likes to cause trouble. I notice that a lot of his posts are deleted. He also posted in the men's rights subreddit.
If you accept that "we just do" then you're part of the problem. I'm not only going off of reddit threads, this is common knowledge amongst most women. We don't have a traditional society anymore, for them to argue tradition, sorry.
Money is attractive to women.
It’s like arguing you shouldn’t have to go to the gym. Like… you’re free to not go, but it will make you less attractive.
I'm not saying that any of that isn't true. I'm saying that not only are they unwilling to pay, but they're manipulative about it. And men who argue in their favor on this topic are part of the problem. If most men were on my side, we could change it. But there's too many simps.
If most men were on your side there’s a lot more you could fix than some piddling issue like who pays on the first date.
But it’s a fantasy. Men are individualists. We want to maximize our own results, fuck the collective.
No. Men are manipulative about it. They think we owe them out bodies after dinner. I've been groped, man handled, force kissed without permission, men have tried to stivk their hands down my pants RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE RESTAURANT WE JUST ATE AT. They split the bill last second without discussing like adults first to try and "test" our reaction.
You guys are the ones that do these stupid shit. Until it stops then yeah you pay.
We absolutely do still in many ways have a traditional society. Men and women aren't equally safe, nor do we put equal effort into dates. Women put a lot of money into the back end of dates, hair for women is expensive our basic hair cuts start at $60-$80. Have you ever bought makeup? Got your nails done?
Until men stop carrying insane beauty standards, stop putting women at risk on dates, and until women truly have equity to men it's going to stay this way.
The only thing your bitterness is hurting is your dating prospects. Grow up. Money isn't everything and if you're that hung up on your money. It's a bad bad look and women WILL pick up on this.
Generosity is a very hot, sexy, attractive trait in men. If you care about 1 dinner, like I said don't even want to know how you are day to day. Bitter and selfish? Probably.
I’m sorry, but as a woman you’re putting those beauty standards on yourself.
Maybe I get fewer matches, but none of the guys I’ve been with have cared that I don’t wear make-up every day or that I chew my nails.
I don't do these things. But many men demand very beautiful women. Men put these beauty standards on women.
But sure, yes. Please put other women down to make yourself feel better about you choosing to do these things! This is exactly what women need from other women. 😂
They can demand things, you don’t have to give it to them. Do what you want to your body because it feels good or you like how it looks.
You aren’t obligated to do any of it, and if you choose to do it then you’re making those decisions for yourself.
I’m not putting anyone down, I’m just saying to do what you want with your own body.
Yes, it’s *men* carrying these beauty standards and are judging you on how much you spend on your hair and makeup. We can tell you spent $5 on that eyeliner instead of $35. You aren’t fooling us!
There's no manipulation, you just don't set boundaries. This wouldn't be an issue if you used your big boy voice and told her to bring her purse when you ask her out with you.
There is no manipulation. It's a cultural norm in many places for the invite to pay for the invitees regardless of the situation, so it's not some grand manipulative plot by women world-wide. You sound uncultured.
It could be. I’m a woman, but I don’t date women so I’m unsure of the dynamics at play.
Atleast for me, if I’m interested in someone, it wouldn’t really make a difference if they wanted to split the first few dates before it becomes a relationship dynamic of it not being a big deal if he or I pay for the date in full.
I guess that everyone is different, but statistically a majority of women have no problem to go Dutch.
That kind of only applies for the first date though or the first couple, after that it’s probably pretty equal on who initiates a date, no? You can always do something that doesn’t cost money as a first date, like a walk.
I don’t mind splitting but once a relationship starts if you want to split financial things equally you better also Splitt cores equally, because most of the time woman still are doing most if not all of the care work and contributing financially.
I must say I never had this issue. I know it exists, I mean you can clearly see it in all kinds of sexist comments from both sides under this very post, but I just never encountered that problem. I’m not a big fan of adhering strictly to decades-old gender norms, and I guess the women I go to dates with feel the same way. Sometimes I pay, sometimes they pay, we split, take turns. It’s a lovely, carefree existence.
To OP: if you don’t believe in “women should this”, “men should that”, “real men this”, “real women that”, then you probably don’t wanna date someone who does. If somebody expects you to adhere to a gender stereotype you don’t believe in, they are not the right person for you, and they just let you know. I would say a cup of coffee is a low price to pay for finding out somebody isn’t the kind of person you’re looking for. Thank then for the date, say goodbye, move on.
To women who do like adhering to traditional gender norms and look for a like-minded guy: that’s perfectly fine, I genuinely don’t see an issue with that, you do you. Be aware, this will almost certainly mean selecting for the more conservative men in our midst, and if you want that, then great. Just don’t be surprised if the guy you wanted to adhere to traditional gender norms expects the same from you. And don’t act weird towards people who don’t share your values. If you’re looking for a gentleman, be a lady, don’t call somebody broke cause they wanted to split the bill, that’s not a very classy thing to do, and it really makes it sound like you care a bit too much about money. Split the bill, thank them for the date, say goodbye. They are not the person you’re looking for. Move on
Yeah, it's obviously a cheap statement coming from the people who only want to take advantage of you or the pathetic dudes who couldn't get a date if they weren't paying for their time lol. Most women are very reasonable though and have the same expectations as me. We almost always pay for our own share and when we don't it's because we really enjoyed each other's company so one of us pays for both. I have women pay for me more often than I pay for one. I am generous in relationships but those women have always been the same and reciprocated too.
I’ll pay for my friends and family or go half. I will pay if I don’t like a guy. I won’t let a guy I don’t like pay for me or buy me anything. To buy me something is specially reserved for a person who will protect and provide for me. I dated a guy for 3 months and it ended, but he still wanted to give me the Christmas necklace gift. I gave it back because I wouldn’t wear something a man gave me but has no place in my life. I even gave back an engagement ring that I picked out. Letting a man pay for me is like letting them have control. If I pay for someone I look up to then i’ve already lost a lot of respect and can no longer look up at them so naturally they get friend zoned. I tend to think of them as less capable or a partner at best, not a man.
Luckily I’ve always gone on first dates with men who are eager take me to dinner and wouldn’t even LET me pay, and my two long term relationships (one from the past and the one I’m now in) both showed up with roses. I put a lot into talking to men for a while before a date…real, deep conversations. So by the time we get to the first date stage I know it’s going to be quality and we’re both invested. I want to invest my time and effort into finding someone to have a meaningful relationship with and I want to see him do the same. I always offered to split it or at least leave the tip, but it’s almost insulting and I usually got a confused chuckle- who would want that on a first date? Haha!
The only circumstance where I would insist on splitting it would be if I didn’t feel any attraction and knew I didn’t want to see him again- in that case I’m not knowingly going to have him pay for me. Luckily that never happened! If he asked to split the check I’d truly assume he wasn’t interested and would not go on a second date, luckily that never happened either. It’s not a “you need to spoil me all the time” or a “I’m using you for a free meal” thing- I’m just looking for a quality man who WANTS to make the first date special and treat me. By this time though, I’ve already mentioned to him I prefer to keep things mostly equal during dating, so he knows if he pays for the first date that’s probably the only time that will happen and we’ll be trading off after that. If I let him pay, it’s because I want to see him again.
Like I said, I didn’t just randomly date people after talking for a day and could weed out a ton of low quality ahead of time and I knew the man I’d be meeting would be somewhat invested in advance.
Usually through conversation maybe 1 in 8 would actually get a date- the rest were always one word answers or low quality boring conversation, immediately asking about sex, or simply beliefs didn’t match (I’m an atheist so I respectfully declined men who wanted church, etc). When I was actively dating- definitely quality over quantity is the way!!!
If you’re getting annoyed about paying for too many first dates that fizzle out maybe try talking to her for a longer period and really get to know her before the first date! If she’s invested she’ll be fine talking consistently for a week or maybe even a bit longer.
Y'all know damn well most women don't ask men out. It's so perplexing how y'all are upset with op for calling out a double standard instead of getting mad at the double standard itself
What’s the double standard? If you want something, go get it. The things *you* want will rarely fall in your lap.
Y’all want women more than women want you. Otherwise, you would’ve been asked out by women. That’s fine! That’s just the market. There’s no double standard here lol.
I’ve asked multiple men out. Younger women are usually too nervous to, but 25+ women definitely ask men out. You just might not be the kinda guy that’s getting asked out, or you might not be around those kinds of women idk
I have asked out every man i have wanted to date. Same goes for every woman I know. Women just don’t want to ask *you* out. Again, if you’re so upset about paying for dates, just don’t initiate. Problem solved. Stop bitching
Congrats. You're not most women. The problem is the disgustingly anti-feminist patriarchal gender role that fools like you have come into this comment section to defend. It's that exact kind of self-centeredness that prevents feminism from moving forward
Yeah wait for every 5 years that one asks you out ok. And even then, they're usually not my type. Problem not solved. And asking to split the bill makes you look broke or stingy in their eyes. At least that's what they say.
So then you have your answer. Stop being bitter and selfish, we can smell it on you a mile away and it's just going to hurt your prospects. You keep arguing facts. Not a good look and there's more to your failure in dating then women not wanting to split bills lol.
Then stop being broke and stingy. No one wants to date someone so obsessed with money that it literally takes every ounce of fun out of the date which is what you’re doing. Be a gentleman, pay for the date. End of story. But also just be the type of person who can be generous and treat people to things just because. Be generous with people and people will be generous with you. If that’s not your experience you’re around the wrong kind of people. This whole “everything split 50/50 no matter what” thing you’re doing is so fucking annoying. I’m a woman and I love treating my friends to things or buying them dinner because it’s just nice and fun when they do it back to me when I’m not expecting it. I buy my husband things too. But when we were dating he never LET me pay because he was raised to be a gentleman and kindness, chivalry, and generosity are important to him. If the first thing out of your mouth every time you go on a date is “can we split the check” it’s no wonder you haven’t been successful.
You're looking at it wrong. You want the type of woman who either is ok paying or who is ok splitting. They will self select for you. And all it costs you is 1 date to find out if they are worth ***your*** time in particular. That's pretty good.
What are you saying. That you take them out and find out? It's a waste of time if that's the approach. Better off telling them upfront that you want to go Dutch and find out beforehand to save everyone time.
Do you genuinely not understand why a woman wouldn’t want to date a man who gets this upset at doing something small for her? Do you not get why women (the sex that bears children and carries the reproductive burden) would be hesitant to start a life and build a family with a man who gets this upset at the idea of buying her lunch?
Like what? A walk in the park is too cliché. The only free thing I can think of is the beach/lake, but I don't have a oceanfront near me so it's just a lake. And even then, she might think you're trying to be cheap on purpose.
You’re over thinking it. A walk in the park is nice. Bring a picnic with a charcuterie plate and some drinks. Get a paint kit and some canvases from Michael’s and paint each other’s portraits or a scene of the lake and laugh about how bad they are after. Ask her about herself, her family, where she wants to travel, her goals for the future. Tell her about yourself. On a first date, money is a non-issue unless you make it an issue. Stop putting so much pressure on yourself, keep it lowkey and just have fun.
Here are the first 3 dates with my now-girlfriend
1. Boardwalk
2. Hiking
3. Music in the park
All cost me nothing
If people balk and demand dinner or to “invest” in them or whatever when you first meet just end the conversation there and drop them.
If all you can do is offer dinner or paid dates maybe that’s your issue? Get to know them just a slight bit and base an activity off of that. Maybe the ones you’re attracted to are the ones that prefer to be “courted”
If you don’t want to pay for a coffee or a drink you shouldn’t be dating. Most women I know don’t want to sit down for a meal until 3rd date. Relationships require investment. The stakes are higher for women entering dating situations as they have genuine safety concerns and the man paying for the first couple of dates is the least he can do to even out things. After the first few dates I have no problem paying my way.
And what’s also missing here is that for a lot of women once you get into the serious aspect of the relationship many men don’t help around the house, or clean and cook as much as their partner. And yes times are changing but since I’ve been back on the dating scene many men have told me that these things are a woman’s duty. So paying for a date really isn’t that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.
This is all theory. You MAY get into relationship, you MAY move in together, and she MAY do more housework.
Not really relevant to a woman sitting in front of you expecting you to pay for her $50 meal RIGHT NOW.
Well majority of the time the guy chooses the place no? Why did you invite her to a place where a single meal costs $50?
Yeah we’re speaking about hypotheticals but in most women’s experience they’re always putting more effort in the relationship so the least they want to know if this guy actually likes them enough to put in some effort up front.
I just find that a lot of men try to get the most by doing the least. They’ll talk about going 50/50 financially but you mention 50/50 when it comes to cooking & cleaning and it’s an issue. Like I don’t mind paying for a date. If I say let’s go see a movie, I’ll get the tickets in advance because I like picking the best seats. But in my experience the men who have this mindset of women trying to use them and complain about paying are the same men saying the things I just mentioned and at that point it’s a compatibility issue anyway.
$50 per person is about average for dinner where I am. Drinks are $15 per and a successful drinks date is going to have multiple drinks downed, plus we’ve got to eat that night anyway… so may as well do dinner and avoid the hangover. There’s only two days a week I can do coffee because obviously I’m not trying to have coffee at 7PM on a weeknight.
> I just find that a lot of men try to get the most by doing the least.
This is how every relationship other than the one with your parents is.
We all have a strategy. You are describing women’s strategy in your post.
I just went on a date to a cafe to get boba and a pastry and take a walk in the park. You really don’t have to go to dinner or drinks on the 1st date. Get creative.
I’m sorry but if you view every relationship as trying to get the most out of doing the least then you’re going through life with a very pessimistic attitude. I do a lot for friends, family, partners etc. I do it because I love them, not because I’m trying to get something out of it. You make sacrifices for people you care about. You’re definitely not disproving my point that men who complain about it typically aren’t generous or selfless & have an attitude that I try to avoid. It’ll def show up in bigger ways long term. I did it with my ex and he ended up being a selfish prick that I had to bend over backwards for time and time again who didn’t do the same in return.
"many men have told me that these things are a woman’s duty."
That seems like more a symptom of dating conservative men who love to uphold gender norms. I don't really understand why you would date a conservative, then be shocked they have conservative views.
You think these men have conservative written on their profile or their foreheads? No, they don’t because they know it won’t attract women. You only find out once you start asking certain questions. I dip once they start saying things like this anyway.
I don't know, because the conservative women who tried to get with me all had "conservative" on their profile. Maybe guys are bit more sneaky with it.
Those questions seem all the more necessary for women it appears.
What are you investing on the first two dates though? We're equally paying for clothes, spending the time etc... so what are you investing that a man isn't?
Lol hair products skin products makeup products hair removal list goes on if you want to argue that. I’m also saying women are assuming more RISK going into dating. Especially if it’s OLD and we’re essentially meeting w strangers unfortunately bad things can happen. So if we’re talking about costs definitely more costly for a woman in that sense. I just think when a man offers to pay it shows his intentions are serious and it’s a green flag.
My slacks were $150, my polo was $100, my haircut was $70, my beard oil is $20. My gym membership is $50 a month. My skin care regimen costs a few hundred a year.
Should I expect women to buy me dinner?
Women spend a lot more on personal care than men 9/10 times. Also we have to buy our tampons and pads. ALSO products both women and men use (razors, bath soaps, etc) are notoriously more expensive for women than men! You guys aren’t going to win the argument on this
You dont have to pay for anything but don’t expect much success in dating if you don’t 🤷🏻♀️
I paid six figures for an education that got me a great job that got me money to help become an attractive partner to women (plus a gym membership), so by your logic the woman should pay for me.
See how ridiculous this logic is? Lol
And how is any of that the responsibility of the person on a date with you? Y'all make up so much bullshit to protect your anti-feminist gender roles. Make up all the reasons that you want. It's still anti-feminist
Chicks like to be taken care of by a provider. Typically. If that’s not the role you want to play, the don’t play it but you’ll attract a different kind of chick. Not good or bad. Just different.
Just cause you take them out on a date doesn’t mean you have to take them to a Michelin star restaurant. Coffee, tacos , ice cream? You don’t have to break the bank, just getting to know them. It’s not difficult people just over complicate things. If you can’t afford to pay then you shouldn’t be dating.
I can afford a date. It's not about the money. I already explained the principle about how it's manipulative. That's why I don't like it. And you minimizing the cost is besides the point. The point is that women won't bring the same "generosity" to a first date that they are requiring. And then they come up with manipulative reasons why men MUST pay, or shame him and say you're broke and don't date. It's ludicrous.
It’s definitely a double standard that goes in their favor. As a guy, I just pay for the first date. I’ve accepted that it’s what usually just happens.
If you are comfortable in paying for dates then don’t go out bro. With that being said you do have a day on where you take her. If you want to pay for coffee or go to expensive restaurants all the time that’s on you.
If she’s not willing to do coffee dates or cheap dates then she’s not worth your time
I'm not gonna sit and listen to the ultimatum "don't date". Yes I'll get a drink or coffee on a first date, I'm not investing anymore than that on someone I don't know that I'll be with. Simple as that. And I'm only paying for a coffee not to argue about the fuckin coffee.
Anyone who doesn't want to give women free money that they won't give to men themselves is broke and miserable I know. Men are just supposed to be fucking ecstatic to hand women free money that they didn't earn. Shut the fuck up
I never said I was broke or miserable, I have no idea what you're talking about. You can call it what you want. A good time is dressing it up honestly. I can say the same thing to women, show me a good time and pay or you're broke and miserable and selfish
I don't know where you're getting your information. I've never said they can't take care of themselves. But even if they couldn't, how does a 50 dollar dinner take care of a woman. It's meaningless. Let's say I did take on a leadership role. Then is the woman going to actually let me lead? Is she gonna let me make the decisions and listen to my direction? Is she going to also engage in traditional feminine roles? Probably fuckin not because they've been taught it's degrading. So it's often not even worth paying for them. But they'll just give men an ultimatum that they refuse to date you then. They're the true extremists in this discussion.
my reason is that i like generous men who enjoy doing nice things for people. it’s a quality i value in friends and romantic partners. not to mention this has never been an issue - every man i’ve been on a first date with has happily insisted on paying so not sure what the issue is. if you don’t want to pay you don’t have to!
Saying that you like when someone pays for you is effectively the same as saying that you don't like having to pay for yourself. Congratulations, you proved his point
Men can say the same thing to you regarding a first date. That you don't seem generous, when you're all hung up on forcing him to pay. You haven't had an issue because men end up being forced because of your whining and manipulation. The manipulation part is you claiming you "like generosity" and then turning around and refuse to do it yourself on a date.
i’ve never whined or insisted a man pay, so not sure how it could be taken as manipulation. i offer to split the bill as i understand im not owed a meal and no one has ever accepted my offer. lots of men enjoy doing nice things for others, so i don’t really see the issue. no one is forcing you to pay if you don’t want to pay - its better to split if you’re going to resent women if you buy them one dinner lol
OP rn: "I'm the victim, I have to pay $10 for a meal" dude was complaining about paying for GAS for a date
Op is stingy af, I'll say whatever I want about him. He's a loser idc
Same with planning the date, I've had women ask me out but then expect me to do all the thought and planning into what we do (and then presumably pay for it)
What’s funny to me is the amount of women in threads saying they don’t need men to pay and they have their own money… I swear, if they’re telling the truth, those women only exist online. I’ve never met one in real life.
Some people will say, “those are the women you choose to date”. It’s hard to judge financial boundaries through dating apps. You don’t really find out til you’re on the date.
As a female, every time I have been proactive in a relationship such as making the date and offering to pay, the guy ends up seeing our situation as a “friends with benefits”. I am not looking to get free food, but if I offer to pay, make the plans, etc… it has never led to a meaningful relationship and now I just do not do it out of self respect.
I think it should always be split on a first date, unless one or the other requests to pay, it should never be implied in this day and age that the man is going to pay. That puts an unhealthy dynamic on the first date and put the woman in a place of feeling like she owes him.
Yeah my ex would never set up a date. She would show me these cool events and activities. She would talk about how nice it would be to do them. I’d say that I’d like to do that too. She would even talk about how she has “nothing on”. And it’s not like I didn’t take her out on dates. I did that regularly. But it just sucks because it seemed like I had to continue to woo and show interest, yet I didn’t get that in return.
Just one of the reasons why we’re not still dating.
Recently a match on Hinge asked me out instead. I was so impressed that I paid for dinner anyways! She did bring the drinks though, so it kinda evened out in the end.
Haven't you caught on yet? A concerning amount of women only want equality when it's convenient. Ask them to pay a check, protect themselves, or repair something themselves and suddenly they're a-ok with the patriarchy.
Y'all can downvote me all you want but feminism will never move forward so long as women choose to perpetuate the parts of the patriarchy that they vl benefit from. You cannot destroy a system by perpetuating it
Yeah, that's super manipulative. They're always creating narratives that benefit them while avoiding accountability on their part. They'll also say "if he doesn't pay then he's not demonstrating that he can provide in the future". But the reality is that even a bum could gather 50 dollars to pay for a date, so when a man pays, it doesn't necessarily indicate anything.
It indicates generosity and lack of care over money.
I don't want a penny pincher or a man that's obsessed with his money, is going to hold it over me.
I have more than enough money to pay for my dinner. I'm seeing how you handle it, and if you have a problem picking up 1 tab. That tells me so much about that person. Why? Because they aren't grown up enough to talk about it before hand and I really don't want to be with someone who is going to resent me over a $60 dinner.
this is the answer. i like men who like doing nice things for me. i like doing nice things for people i love and wouldn’t date someone who isn’t generous.
Why do YOU have a problem picking up 1 tab though? I could say the same thing about you, about how you handle it and how you seem like a penny pincher. Especially when you admittedly have your own money.
This is only a problem if you don’t talk about it lol.
If is a first date and you don’t want to pay the whole bill, just tell them before hand so they can bring enough money or they can choose if they want to go out or not.
Obviously if you continue seeing this person for a long time and you have different interests that you want to share with each other, is normal that the woman who is inviting you to do something she wants would pay for both.
Or viceversa.
Don’t think too much in it.
This is like bitching about applying to jobs and how it’s unfair that jobs *you’re* seeking out because *you* don’t apply to you. When you’re a good prospective candidate, recruiters reach out and apply to the prospective candidate. If they’re not reaching out to you it’s either because (1) you’re not a good enough candidate or (2) you’re in a market where that just isn’t happening. Be a better candidate or change markets; but bitching about it will show every employer that you’re just lazy, entitled, and unwilling to put in the effort it takes to accomplish a goal. Who wants those traits in an employee?
If OP is that miserly, no woman is going to want to be a stay-at-home, part-timer mom for him. And that's what many people do these days bc childcare is insane.
It's not convenient, it's on purpose. Women don't want to put effort unless it's some 1% kind of guy like a celebrity, then all those rules go out the window. We already saw what happened with bumble; women had all the power to allow convos and prevent dick pics, but they would rather deal with that instead of starting a conversation. I guess we're at the point that we're just gotta keep beating around the bush of the problems with dating
I feel like I’m living in some crazy bubble here because all these ‘norms’ and ‘rules’ have just never been a part of my life. I’m a 31 year old woman, I’ve been on literally hundreds of dates in my life (not all with different men, obviously) and I think a man has paid for the date in its entirety maybe twice. I’ve paid for the entire date probably 20% of the time. Every other time we’ve split it as close to 50/50 as possible. Is that not the norm??
And as for who’s asking who out - again, always been pretty much 50/50 in my experience. Sometimes I do the asking, sometimes I’ve been asked. Call me crazy but I don’t see dating expectations / experiences as a gendered thing.
My partner now: I asked him out in the first place, he asked me for the second date, we both wanted to commit at the same time, we split the cost of drinks the first night we met at an event with other friends. On our first date we walked my dog together and each paid our own train fair to get to a local forest, then I took him for dinner after and paid, ever since then we split things 50/50 at first but after we got closer and discussed finances we now split things about 70/30 because I earn 2-3x what he does so I pay more, it’s not a big deal.
i get where you're coming from. it does seem like there's a bit of a double standard when it comes to who asks and who pays. ideally, both parties should feel comfortable asking each other out and sharing the cost. fairness and mutual effort are key in any relationship. having an open conversation about expectations can make things a lot smoother and more balanced for everyone involved.
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Yeah it's one of those gender norms that's still in flux. My gay friends always tell me how hetero dating has different norms because the always go dutch and neither party feels slighted/cheaped out.
I asked my dutch roommate about this phrase, they had no idea why it's a thing
Ask him what is a tikkie
Better yet, ask him what was the smallest tikkie he ever done. Dutchies go as far as demanding 1 euro from a friend
As a swiss i can say we go as much as demanding 5 rappen (about 5 cents) from a friend
If I could have been born gay, I would have. The simplicity of dealing with another man would be welcome.
I’m bi and I promise you neither is easier than the other. If you say this in total seriousness then either 1 you have a misogyny problem 2 you might be a little gay
Yeah, they have different sets of problems they are just about equally headache inducing lol.
This is what I’m inclined to believe. That said, some problems suck more to some people. If this was on r/hypotheticalquestions, I would like to suffer the problems of a homosexual relationship for a day in exchange for the problems of my heterosexual relationship. I might even be willing to swap those problems for longer.
No, that doesn't mean necessarily that he has a misogyny problem. The majority of men do struggle dating women and figuring them out.🙄 If you call that misogyny, then maybe you're the sexist one?
I’m just saying that the problems in a male-male intimate relationship seem simpler as opposed to more complex. Perhaps it would be easier to realize you two weren’t right for each other due to the typically more direct communication styles of well-adjusted men, but that’s no guarantee. At the end of the day, you are only dealing with male psychology as opposed to female psychology. One type of psychology versus two kinds seems to be simpler almost by definition.
Why does everyone online conflate simplicity with ease? I never said anything about it being easier. If I am a little gay, ok. I’m pretty sure homosexuality is on a spectrum for everyone who isn’t some 6-sigma on the curve. EDIT: I love how hateful people constantly call everything they disagree with misogyny when a man says it about relationships. I’ve never abused a woman but I’ve been physically, emotionally, financially, and sexually abused by multiple women. Two of them left me with literally nothing across the board (money, self esteem, etc). Maybe i’m not misogynistic but rather jaded.
Now you know how women feel
Lol... Men don't play nearly as many games as women or screw with your head as much.
Clearly you never dated a guy... A lot of men have toxic behaviour in relationships. The power balance is more equal in gay relationships, but that doesn't mean they are more healthy. The reason you don't see how (most, not all) men are toxic is you never suffered from it. I don't say women are perfect, and I agree with OP, but you can't just point at the other sides' flaws without reflecting on yours. There are a lot of things to change in dating and relationships, for both men and women, for the happiness and safety of everyone
I always find myself ordering the cheapest option when I'm being paid for. I always bring my wallet and always offer to pay my own, but men always refuse. It's the oddest thing. A lot of them have known my financial situation is poor, which may contribute as well
Maybe. But I have been asked out by a woman, and while I was in the bathroom she went ahead and paid for the whole thing. There wasn't a second date, but as it turns out that was because I ordered a beer with the meal, and she wanted a guy who didn't drink alcohol at all (or at least, that's what she said when I asked "Oh, why not?" to her refusal of a second date).
It's a modern contextualization for the way things have always worked, which leaves room for a little more equity in paying for dates if the woman is the one taking the lead and does want to pay. Most of the men I know in real life who've have a problem with this only take issue because they feel like it's infantilizing or emasculating for the woman to pay for the date, not because they feel like they're being tricked into paying for a date. Really it just depends on the people. If you want to split dates then be clear about that, and you'll eventually find someone down with that. If you're okay paying for dates then enjoy taking someone out and treating them to a night to remember. There's obviously still a lot of expectation of men to initiate early in dating and to get things rolling, but the "who takes the lead pays for the date" system does work well once you're seeing each other regularly. If she wants to go for a particular meal or go see a show and take you with her then she can pay for it, and if you want to go watch a hockey or baseball game then you can cover it. If you're dating someone who just never initiates dates and says "when I initiate then I'll pay", just ask why they don't initiate dates and have a talk about it. It's not super complicated. If they react poorly then dump them.
Why is this written at like a graduate school level 😭 bro’s bringing Good Will Hunting energy to the Reddit thread
Just my over-thinking-ass brain lol
Word to the wise: women will always be able to find some dude to pay for their dates. If you find someone willing to split dates with you, hold on to them for dear life. Never go into a relationship with the expectation that there will be an equivalent rate of effort or money spent. You’re asking for a bad time if you do.
This right here. While I don't think that women that are happy to pay are as rare as it seems (source: I am one) some of us have had bad experiences as a result. Some men will feel slighted by even just the offer. In those cases I will generally accept the generosity but then not opt for a second date. I think it might take women who are generally okay with splitting or taking turns a little while to be sure the man they're seeing isn't gonna be weird about it. (In an ideal world, none of us should have hang-ups like this, of course, but we do, we live in a society, etc.)
Yeah, I'm a woman, but that's bs. I like and understand that men usually ask out women. But having to pay because you asked someone out is bs, in my opinion. If they say yes, they can pay. You don't say to your friends, "wanna go out for dinner/ lunch," and then you have to pay either, right? So why would it be different if it was a date? Those women just don't want to pay or split. They want like a 'provider'. To each their own, but I prefer splitting or switching up who's paying if you're going on more dates/ in a relationship.
Yup, it is 2024. We can pay for ourselves as well. And it just sucks that those rules still exist
Those rules only still exist because they're perpetuated. Women universally choosing to act like the equally capable human beings that they are would fix that. But so many are only interested in equality when it's convenient for them.
You can but usually don’t. Some men insist on paying, so that’s totally on them. Some women will split the first date with no problem, some will split the first date, but because of it there will not be a second. If a woman is like that, then it’s a bullet dodged, but it’s still a gut punch, nobody likes rejection. I’m of the opinion that who ever gets paid for should be grateful, should appreciate it, not to the point where they’re obliged to anything, but a huge proportion expect it. Lots of people claim to be cool with splitting the bill on the first date until it happens. Principles don’t always fall in line with feelings.
>Principles don’t always fall in line with feelings. Hard to swallow pills 😂
There’s nothing stopping women from pulling out their credit card and placing it next to a piece of paper on a date…
No, that’s not the norm with friends either, you just weren’t taught proper manners. If I invite a friend out to somewhere specific, as in I alone picked the place and invited them to join me then I do pay. Always. Same with them. That’s standard good manners. You’re the one who invited them and picked the activity, it’s implied you pay in that situation, doesn’t matter if it’s a friend or a romantic interest. You invited them to join you somewhere that you alone planned. You pay. And this applies even if you checked with them about the restaurant or whatever. If I just want to see my friend but I’m not necessarily inviting them to a specific place, I just ask them to hang out. And we decide together and each pay our own way. So I’ll concede to you that “wanna get dinner?” can mean let’s pick a place together and each pay for ourselves. But “let me *take you out to dinner”* definitely means you pay regardless of the platonic nature of your relationship. Asking with that specific phrasing is implying you’re treating them. So the way you ask matters. If you say “can I take you on a date?” You are literally stating your intent to pay. It’s rude asf to plan a date and invite someone to attend then make them pay their own way. That’s egregiously poor manners. If you really want to go Dutch then you ask them in a way that makes it clear it’s Dutch. “How do you feel about meeting up and seeing if there is chemistry?” Then you decide together where that is. But it needs to be clear that it’s not a date that one person is taking the other on, it’s a mutual activity and you are both paying your own way. IMO it’s best to explicitly state your intent to go Dutch. If it’s something expensive like a concert then I say “would you like to get tickets with me to go to this show?” I don’t say “would you like to go to this concert with me on this day?” The former makes it clear we’re getting tickets together. The latter implies you already have tickets and you are asking them to accompany you. See the difference? Also the argument “this is how it is with friends, so that’s how it should be with someone you are romantically interested in” is stupid. They aren’t a friend. They are someone that you are asking to take their time to consider you as a romantic prospect. You aren’t asking them to be your friend so don’t treat them like they’re a friend. If a man asked me on a date, planned it then surprised me with the check then I would interpret that as him telling me he isn’t interested. Because he really isn’t if he doesn’t even think the time that *he* asked *me* for (not the other way around) is even worth a meal lol. It’s okay for women to have higher standards. You don’t have to be a cool, pick me girl that doesn’t expect basic manners or effort. When I’m in a relationship/partnership, it’s 50/50, or even more on my end. There’s been times I carried him and times he carried me, financially and otherwise. But a man who is asking me to consider him as a potential partner before there is a relationship established should put in effort. Women have risks in sex and dating men don’t. We already do most of the domestic labor, childcare labor, reproductive labor, emotional labor, etc. And now we’re telling men they don’t even have to cover the date THEY asked us on?? Come on girl lol. The bar for men is low enough as it is. Edit: Im assuming you’re young, but as a woman in my 30s I can tell you with 100% certainty that a man that is head over heels for you will put in so much effort to make sure you have a great time if you allow him to do so, and he will never complain about covering dates in the beginning stages of the relationship. He will want to and think you’re worth it. And he’ll appreciate it more when you match that effort in response. You don’t want to fuck with the men who think paying for a date means a woman is an entitled gold digger or that the woman they want to get to know isn’t worth a real date. Those men rarely make good partners. Also understanding the etiquette of who pays and when doesn’t mean you want “a provider.” That’s ridiculous
Every partner and every good friend I’ve had, the “who pays” has never been an issue at all since leaving college — like usually more about fighting over who gets to pay. Lotta broke ass losers in this sub 😂
>Lotta broke ass losers in this sub 😂 Damn, calling someone a broke ass loser because they wanna split is crazy, you sound like a fun person to be around.
Agree with you 😂😂 my friends and I go to great lengths to steal the check to pay for the group like it’s a game, haha. “I ain’t’ paying for you on the first date, pay for yourself” is so cringey to me!
Spitting facts nuff’ said.
This
As a woman, I second this.
It's a good method of weeding out people. If it's a red flag for you, ask to go Dutch and if she's offended then you know not to pursue it.
Facts
You're making a mountain out of a molehill. If you wanna split it, just tell women when you ask them out that you wanna split.
THIS Who gives a fuck. I don’t understand men who are that bothered by it FWIW I don’t understand women with strong opinions on it either. WHO CARES
It's the manipulation behind it. Read my original post.
no one is manipulating you to do anything. You're completely free to ask them to pay their half. It's just the norm that it's the man pursuing the women. Its a grand gesture to pick up the meal or drinks or whatever. Grand gestures make you look good. It's really that simple.
If all you have to do say "hey lets go dutch" how is it manipulation?
Your post is a meta-commentary on how women justify it in comment threads on Reddit. I don’t think the Reddit thread itself should exist. I don’t think women should justify why men should pay. A simple appeal to tradition is enough. We just do. Unless we don’t want to see her again.
I checked his posting history. This guy likes to cause trouble. I notice that a lot of his posts are deleted. He also posted in the men's rights subreddit.
Anyone with a dash and numbers username is sus.
If you accept that "we just do" then you're part of the problem. I'm not only going off of reddit threads, this is common knowledge amongst most women. We don't have a traditional society anymore, for them to argue tradition, sorry.
Money is attractive to women. It’s like arguing you shouldn’t have to go to the gym. Like… you’re free to not go, but it will make you less attractive.
I'm not saying that any of that isn't true. I'm saying that not only are they unwilling to pay, but they're manipulative about it. And men who argue in their favor on this topic are part of the problem. If most men were on my side, we could change it. But there's too many simps.
You sound inexperienced and bitter. Maybe don’t spend so much time online, it’s just making you more isolated tbh
If you knew me, you might make sense, but you don't... next...
If most men were on your side there’s a lot more you could fix than some piddling issue like who pays on the first date. But it’s a fantasy. Men are individualists. We want to maximize our own results, fuck the collective.
No. Men are manipulative about it. They think we owe them out bodies after dinner. I've been groped, man handled, force kissed without permission, men have tried to stivk their hands down my pants RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE RESTAURANT WE JUST ATE AT. They split the bill last second without discussing like adults first to try and "test" our reaction. You guys are the ones that do these stupid shit. Until it stops then yeah you pay.
Honestly, how are they manipulative about it? I think this word does not mean what you think it does.
We absolutely do still in many ways have a traditional society. Men and women aren't equally safe, nor do we put equal effort into dates. Women put a lot of money into the back end of dates, hair for women is expensive our basic hair cuts start at $60-$80. Have you ever bought makeup? Got your nails done? Until men stop carrying insane beauty standards, stop putting women at risk on dates, and until women truly have equity to men it's going to stay this way. The only thing your bitterness is hurting is your dating prospects. Grow up. Money isn't everything and if you're that hung up on your money. It's a bad bad look and women WILL pick up on this. Generosity is a very hot, sexy, attractive trait in men. If you care about 1 dinner, like I said don't even want to know how you are day to day. Bitter and selfish? Probably.
I’m sorry, but as a woman you’re putting those beauty standards on yourself. Maybe I get fewer matches, but none of the guys I’ve been with have cared that I don’t wear make-up every day or that I chew my nails.
I don't do these things. But many men demand very beautiful women. Men put these beauty standards on women. But sure, yes. Please put other women down to make yourself feel better about you choosing to do these things! This is exactly what women need from other women. 😂
They can demand things, you don’t have to give it to them. Do what you want to your body because it feels good or you like how it looks. You aren’t obligated to do any of it, and if you choose to do it then you’re making those decisions for yourself. I’m not putting anyone down, I’m just saying to do what you want with your own body.
I thought yall said that women get all dressed up and pretty for themselves, not for men. What happened to that?
Yes, it’s *men* carrying these beauty standards and are judging you on how much you spend on your hair and makeup. We can tell you spent $5 on that eyeliner instead of $35. You aren’t fooling us!
There's no manipulation, you just don't set boundaries. This wouldn't be an issue if you used your big boy voice and told her to bring her purse when you ask her out with you.
There is no manipulation. It's a cultural norm in many places for the invite to pay for the invitees regardless of the situation, so it's not some grand manipulative plot by women world-wide. You sound uncultured.
Possibly he's salty because women don't ask him out
Honestly this! If a man asked me out and upon asking said „are you okay with going 50/50 on the date?”, I would have absolutely no problem.
IRL few women will agree to a second date if she has to split.
It could be. I’m a woman, but I don’t date women so I’m unsure of the dynamics at play. Atleast for me, if I’m interested in someone, it wouldn’t really make a difference if they wanted to split the first few dates before it becomes a relationship dynamic of it not being a big deal if he or I pay for the date in full. I guess that everyone is different, but statistically a majority of women have no problem to go Dutch.
Sounds like a win to me.
That kind of only applies for the first date though or the first couple, after that it’s probably pretty equal on who initiates a date, no? You can always do something that doesn’t cost money as a first date, like a walk. I don’t mind splitting but once a relationship starts if you want to split financial things equally you better also Splitt cores equally, because most of the time woman still are doing most if not all of the care work and contributing financially.
I must say I never had this issue. I know it exists, I mean you can clearly see it in all kinds of sexist comments from both sides under this very post, but I just never encountered that problem. I’m not a big fan of adhering strictly to decades-old gender norms, and I guess the women I go to dates with feel the same way. Sometimes I pay, sometimes they pay, we split, take turns. It’s a lovely, carefree existence. To OP: if you don’t believe in “women should this”, “men should that”, “real men this”, “real women that”, then you probably don’t wanna date someone who does. If somebody expects you to adhere to a gender stereotype you don’t believe in, they are not the right person for you, and they just let you know. I would say a cup of coffee is a low price to pay for finding out somebody isn’t the kind of person you’re looking for. Thank then for the date, say goodbye, move on. To women who do like adhering to traditional gender norms and look for a like-minded guy: that’s perfectly fine, I genuinely don’t see an issue with that, you do you. Be aware, this will almost certainly mean selecting for the more conservative men in our midst, and if you want that, then great. Just don’t be surprised if the guy you wanted to adhere to traditional gender norms expects the same from you. And don’t act weird towards people who don’t share your values. If you’re looking for a gentleman, be a lady, don’t call somebody broke cause they wanted to split the bill, that’s not a very classy thing to do, and it really makes it sound like you care a bit too much about money. Split the bill, thank them for the date, say goodbye. They are not the person you’re looking for. Move on
Let it go. If you let yourself get too bitter about it, you're going to start putting out negative vibes and you'll sabotage yourself.
I never see replies like this in threads by women complaining about men.
😂
That entirely depends on the complaint that she is making. If it’s something this stupid, then you probably would.
The negative vibes are already dripping from OP lololol
Oh but he already has
Yeah, it's obviously a cheap statement coming from the people who only want to take advantage of you or the pathetic dudes who couldn't get a date if they weren't paying for their time lol. Most women are very reasonable though and have the same expectations as me. We almost always pay for our own share and when we don't it's because we really enjoyed each other's company so one of us pays for both. I have women pay for me more often than I pay for one. I am generous in relationships but those women have always been the same and reciprocated too.
Don’t go for dinner till 3rd date
I’ll pay for my friends and family or go half. I will pay if I don’t like a guy. I won’t let a guy I don’t like pay for me or buy me anything. To buy me something is specially reserved for a person who will protect and provide for me. I dated a guy for 3 months and it ended, but he still wanted to give me the Christmas necklace gift. I gave it back because I wouldn’t wear something a man gave me but has no place in my life. I even gave back an engagement ring that I picked out. Letting a man pay for me is like letting them have control. If I pay for someone I look up to then i’ve already lost a lot of respect and can no longer look up at them so naturally they get friend zoned. I tend to think of them as less capable or a partner at best, not a man.
Woman here- I never have an issue going Dutch (I prefer it actually).
Luckily I’ve always gone on first dates with men who are eager take me to dinner and wouldn’t even LET me pay, and my two long term relationships (one from the past and the one I’m now in) both showed up with roses. I put a lot into talking to men for a while before a date…real, deep conversations. So by the time we get to the first date stage I know it’s going to be quality and we’re both invested. I want to invest my time and effort into finding someone to have a meaningful relationship with and I want to see him do the same. I always offered to split it or at least leave the tip, but it’s almost insulting and I usually got a confused chuckle- who would want that on a first date? Haha! The only circumstance where I would insist on splitting it would be if I didn’t feel any attraction and knew I didn’t want to see him again- in that case I’m not knowingly going to have him pay for me. Luckily that never happened! If he asked to split the check I’d truly assume he wasn’t interested and would not go on a second date, luckily that never happened either. It’s not a “you need to spoil me all the time” or a “I’m using you for a free meal” thing- I’m just looking for a quality man who WANTS to make the first date special and treat me. By this time though, I’ve already mentioned to him I prefer to keep things mostly equal during dating, so he knows if he pays for the first date that’s probably the only time that will happen and we’ll be trading off after that. If I let him pay, it’s because I want to see him again. Like I said, I didn’t just randomly date people after talking for a day and could weed out a ton of low quality ahead of time and I knew the man I’d be meeting would be somewhat invested in advance. Usually through conversation maybe 1 in 8 would actually get a date- the rest were always one word answers or low quality boring conversation, immediately asking about sex, or simply beliefs didn’t match (I’m an atheist so I respectfully declined men who wanted church, etc). When I was actively dating- definitely quality over quantity is the way!!! If you’re getting annoyed about paying for too many first dates that fizzle out maybe try talking to her for a longer period and really get to know her before the first date! If she’s invested she’ll be fine talking consistently for a week or maybe even a bit longer.
If it bothers you so much then wait for a woman to ask you out instead or just be up front about wanting to split when asking her out. Problem solved
Y'all know damn well most women don't ask men out. It's so perplexing how y'all are upset with op for calling out a double standard instead of getting mad at the double standard itself
What’s the double standard? If you want something, go get it. The things *you* want will rarely fall in your lap. Y’all want women more than women want you. Otherwise, you would’ve been asked out by women. That’s fine! That’s just the market. There’s no double standard here lol.
I’ve asked multiple men out. Younger women are usually too nervous to, but 25+ women definitely ask men out. You just might not be the kinda guy that’s getting asked out, or you might not be around those kinds of women idk
I have asked out every man i have wanted to date. Same goes for every woman I know. Women just don’t want to ask *you* out. Again, if you’re so upset about paying for dates, just don’t initiate. Problem solved. Stop bitching
Congrats. You're not most women. The problem is the disgustingly anti-feminist patriarchal gender role that fools like you have come into this comment section to defend. It's that exact kind of self-centeredness that prevents feminism from moving forward
Yeah wait for every 5 years that one asks you out ok. And even then, they're usually not my type. Problem not solved. And asking to split the bill makes you look broke or stingy in their eyes. At least that's what they say.
If both options bother you so much then don’t date. At this point you’re bitching for the sake of bitching
Lmao. You want the type of woman you can’t afford.
So women are just commodities that you have to pay for? I disagree
So then you have your answer. Stop being bitter and selfish, we can smell it on you a mile away and it's just going to hurt your prospects. You keep arguing facts. Not a good look and there's more to your failure in dating then women not wanting to split bills lol.
This is true facts right here. Bro is on high offense mode.
Then stop being broke and stingy. No one wants to date someone so obsessed with money that it literally takes every ounce of fun out of the date which is what you’re doing. Be a gentleman, pay for the date. End of story. But also just be the type of person who can be generous and treat people to things just because. Be generous with people and people will be generous with you. If that’s not your experience you’re around the wrong kind of people. This whole “everything split 50/50 no matter what” thing you’re doing is so fucking annoying. I’m a woman and I love treating my friends to things or buying them dinner because it’s just nice and fun when they do it back to me when I’m not expecting it. I buy my husband things too. But when we were dating he never LET me pay because he was raised to be a gentleman and kindness, chivalry, and generosity are important to him. If the first thing out of your mouth every time you go on a date is “can we split the check” it’s no wonder you haven’t been successful.
You're looking at it wrong. You want the type of woman who either is ok paying or who is ok splitting. They will self select for you. And all it costs you is 1 date to find out if they are worth ***your*** time in particular. That's pretty good.
What are you saying. That you take them out and find out? It's a waste of time if that's the approach. Better off telling them upfront that you want to go Dutch and find out beforehand to save everyone time.
Do you genuinely not understand why a woman wouldn’t want to date a man who gets this upset at doing something small for her? Do you not get why women (the sex that bears children and carries the reproductive burden) would be hesitant to start a life and build a family with a man who gets this upset at the idea of buying her lunch?
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Don’t do something you need to pay for the first handful of dates. Thats how you get around it
Like what? A walk in the park is too cliché. The only free thing I can think of is the beach/lake, but I don't have a oceanfront near me so it's just a lake. And even then, she might think you're trying to be cheap on purpose.
You’re over thinking it. A walk in the park is nice. Bring a picnic with a charcuterie plate and some drinks. Get a paint kit and some canvases from Michael’s and paint each other’s portraits or a scene of the lake and laugh about how bad they are after. Ask her about herself, her family, where she wants to travel, her goals for the future. Tell her about yourself. On a first date, money is a non-issue unless you make it an issue. Stop putting so much pressure on yourself, keep it lowkey and just have fun.
Here are the first 3 dates with my now-girlfriend 1. Boardwalk 2. Hiking 3. Music in the park All cost me nothing If people balk and demand dinner or to “invest” in them or whatever when you first meet just end the conversation there and drop them.
Picnic 🧺
That also costs money
If all you can do is offer dinner or paid dates maybe that’s your issue? Get to know them just a slight bit and base an activity off of that. Maybe the ones you’re attracted to are the ones that prefer to be “courted”
Also if she thinks I’m cheap that’s her problem not mine.
If you don’t want to pay for a coffee or a drink you shouldn’t be dating. Most women I know don’t want to sit down for a meal until 3rd date. Relationships require investment. The stakes are higher for women entering dating situations as they have genuine safety concerns and the man paying for the first couple of dates is the least he can do to even out things. After the first few dates I have no problem paying my way.
And what’s also missing here is that for a lot of women once you get into the serious aspect of the relationship many men don’t help around the house, or clean and cook as much as their partner. And yes times are changing but since I’ve been back on the dating scene many men have told me that these things are a woman’s duty. So paying for a date really isn’t that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things.
This is all theory. You MAY get into relationship, you MAY move in together, and she MAY do more housework. Not really relevant to a woman sitting in front of you expecting you to pay for her $50 meal RIGHT NOW.
Well majority of the time the guy chooses the place no? Why did you invite her to a place where a single meal costs $50? Yeah we’re speaking about hypotheticals but in most women’s experience they’re always putting more effort in the relationship so the least they want to know if this guy actually likes them enough to put in some effort up front. I just find that a lot of men try to get the most by doing the least. They’ll talk about going 50/50 financially but you mention 50/50 when it comes to cooking & cleaning and it’s an issue. Like I don’t mind paying for a date. If I say let’s go see a movie, I’ll get the tickets in advance because I like picking the best seats. But in my experience the men who have this mindset of women trying to use them and complain about paying are the same men saying the things I just mentioned and at that point it’s a compatibility issue anyway.
$50 per person is about average for dinner where I am. Drinks are $15 per and a successful drinks date is going to have multiple drinks downed, plus we’ve got to eat that night anyway… so may as well do dinner and avoid the hangover. There’s only two days a week I can do coffee because obviously I’m not trying to have coffee at 7PM on a weeknight. > I just find that a lot of men try to get the most by doing the least. This is how every relationship other than the one with your parents is. We all have a strategy. You are describing women’s strategy in your post.
I just went on a date to a cafe to get boba and a pastry and take a walk in the park. You really don’t have to go to dinner or drinks on the 1st date. Get creative. I’m sorry but if you view every relationship as trying to get the most out of doing the least then you’re going through life with a very pessimistic attitude. I do a lot for friends, family, partners etc. I do it because I love them, not because I’m trying to get something out of it. You make sacrifices for people you care about. You’re definitely not disproving my point that men who complain about it typically aren’t generous or selfless & have an attitude that I try to avoid. It’ll def show up in bigger ways long term. I did it with my ex and he ended up being a selfish prick that I had to bend over backwards for time and time again who didn’t do the same in return.
You do all those things for everyone besides your date and then expect your date to do the very thing that you won't, which is be generous.
This is NOT theory. This has been studied for absolutely decades. But go off. Keep being delusional and keep staying single! 😘😘
"many men have told me that these things are a woman’s duty." That seems like more a symptom of dating conservative men who love to uphold gender norms. I don't really understand why you would date a conservative, then be shocked they have conservative views.
You think these men have conservative written on their profile or their foreheads? No, they don’t because they know it won’t attract women. You only find out once you start asking certain questions. I dip once they start saying things like this anyway.
I don't know, because the conservative women who tried to get with me all had "conservative" on their profile. Maybe guys are bit more sneaky with it. Those questions seem all the more necessary for women it appears.
What are you investing on the first two dates though? We're equally paying for clothes, spending the time etc... so what are you investing that a man isn't?
Lol hair products skin products makeup products hair removal list goes on if you want to argue that. I’m also saying women are assuming more RISK going into dating. Especially if it’s OLD and we’re essentially meeting w strangers unfortunately bad things can happen. So if we’re talking about costs definitely more costly for a woman in that sense. I just think when a man offers to pay it shows his intentions are serious and it’s a green flag.
My slacks were $150, my polo was $100, my haircut was $70, my beard oil is $20. My gym membership is $50 a month. My skin care regimen costs a few hundred a year. Should I expect women to buy me dinner?
Women spend a lot more on personal care than men 9/10 times. Also we have to buy our tampons and pads. ALSO products both women and men use (razors, bath soaps, etc) are notoriously more expensive for women than men! You guys aren’t going to win the argument on this You dont have to pay for anything but don’t expect much success in dating if you don’t 🤷🏻♀️
I paid six figures for an education that got me a great job that got me money to help become an attractive partner to women (plus a gym membership), so by your logic the woman should pay for me. See how ridiculous this logic is? Lol
I need to subsidize your *tampons*? I’m going Dutch no matter what crazy shit you say lol
And how is any of that the responsibility of the person on a date with you? Y'all make up so much bullshit to protect your anti-feminist gender roles. Make up all the reasons that you want. It's still anti-feminist
Yes, everyone knows it's bullshit. Just skip dating entitled women.
Chicks like to be taken care of by a provider. Typically. If that’s not the role you want to play, the don’t play it but you’ll attract a different kind of chick. Not good or bad. Just different.
Just cause you take them out on a date doesn’t mean you have to take them to a Michelin star restaurant. Coffee, tacos , ice cream? You don’t have to break the bank, just getting to know them. It’s not difficult people just over complicate things. If you can’t afford to pay then you shouldn’t be dating.
I can afford a date. It's not about the money. I already explained the principle about how it's manipulative. That's why I don't like it. And you minimizing the cost is besides the point. The point is that women won't bring the same "generosity" to a first date that they are requiring. And then they come up with manipulative reasons why men MUST pay, or shame him and say you're broke and don't date. It's ludicrous.
Jesus what's with all the hate about men paying on the first date the fast few days... we need a dating advice cj
It’s definitely a double standard that goes in their favor. As a guy, I just pay for the first date. I’ve accepted that it’s what usually just happens.
If you are comfortable in paying for dates then don’t go out bro. With that being said you do have a day on where you take her. If you want to pay for coffee or go to expensive restaurants all the time that’s on you. If she’s not willing to do coffee dates or cheap dates then she’s not worth your time
I'm not gonna sit and listen to the ultimatum "don't date". Yes I'll get a drink or coffee on a first date, I'm not investing anymore than that on someone I don't know that I'll be with. Simple as that. And I'm only paying for a coffee not to argue about the fuckin coffee.
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If I was jeff bezos I wouldn't buy more than a coffee.
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Anyone who doesn't want to give women free money that they won't give to men themselves is broke and miserable I know. Men are just supposed to be fucking ecstatic to hand women free money that they didn't earn. Shut the fuck up
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I never said I was broke or miserable, I have no idea what you're talking about. You can call it what you want. A good time is dressing it up honestly. I can say the same thing to women, show me a good time and pay or you're broke and miserable and selfish
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I don't know where you're getting your information. I've never said they can't take care of themselves. But even if they couldn't, how does a 50 dollar dinner take care of a woman. It's meaningless. Let's say I did take on a leadership role. Then is the woman going to actually let me lead? Is she gonna let me make the decisions and listen to my direction? Is she going to also engage in traditional feminine roles? Probably fuckin not because they've been taught it's degrading. So it's often not even worth paying for them. But they'll just give men an ultimatum that they refuse to date you then. They're the true extremists in this discussion.
it’s because we get scolded for flat out saying men should pay even though its the norm almost everywhere. if you don’t like it, don’t pay.
You don't have a good reason why men should pay in modern society other than the fact that you don't want to fucking pay yourself, that's the issue
my reason is that i like generous men who enjoy doing nice things for people. it’s a quality i value in friends and romantic partners. not to mention this has never been an issue - every man i’ve been on a first date with has happily insisted on paying so not sure what the issue is. if you don’t want to pay you don’t have to!
Saying that you like when someone pays for you is effectively the same as saying that you don't like having to pay for yourself. Congratulations, you proved his point
Men can say the same thing to you regarding a first date. That you don't seem generous, when you're all hung up on forcing him to pay. You haven't had an issue because men end up being forced because of your whining and manipulation. The manipulation part is you claiming you "like generosity" and then turning around and refuse to do it yourself on a date.
i’ve never whined or insisted a man pay, so not sure how it could be taken as manipulation. i offer to split the bill as i understand im not owed a meal and no one has ever accepted my offer. lots of men enjoy doing nice things for others, so i don’t really see the issue. no one is forcing you to pay if you don’t want to pay - its better to split if you’re going to resent women if you buy them one dinner lol
OP is soo bitter, it's cringe af
You can't see things from anyone else's perspective but your own, it's cringe af
OP rn: "I'm the victim, I have to pay $10 for a meal" dude was complaining about paying for GAS for a date Op is stingy af, I'll say whatever I want about him. He's a loser idc
Imagine not having the communication and social skills to navigate payment on a date, and then blaming women for it.
Imagine willfully ignoring the standards that women impose on men and then blaming men for it
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You saying he "should" without a valid reason is the problem
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Same with planning the date, I've had women ask me out but then expect me to do all the thought and planning into what we do (and then presumably pay for it)
Ridiculous
What’s funny to me is the amount of women in threads saying they don’t need men to pay and they have their own money… I swear, if they’re telling the truth, those women only exist online. I’ve never met one in real life. Some people will say, “those are the women you choose to date”. It’s hard to judge financial boundaries through dating apps. You don’t really find out til you’re on the date.
As a female, every time I have been proactive in a relationship such as making the date and offering to pay, the guy ends up seeing our situation as a “friends with benefits”. I am not looking to get free food, but if I offer to pay, make the plans, etc… it has never led to a meaningful relationship and now I just do not do it out of self respect.
That's your personal experience
Not a constructive response to a valid counter to your rant.
I think it should always be split on a first date, unless one or the other requests to pay, it should never be implied in this day and age that the man is going to pay. That puts an unhealthy dynamic on the first date and put the woman in a place of feeling like she owes him.
I think men who make such a big deal of the check are low class. Speaking about money in general is trashy.
Easy to say when you’re not the one paying lol
I could say the same thing about women. They're low class for being obsessed with him paying. And selfish. And entitled.
Whiny baby
Good one...I like the reversion back to adolescence on that one
Yeah my ex would never set up a date. She would show me these cool events and activities. She would talk about how nice it would be to do them. I’d say that I’d like to do that too. She would even talk about how she has “nothing on”. And it’s not like I didn’t take her out on dates. I did that regularly. But it just sucks because it seemed like I had to continue to woo and show interest, yet I didn’t get that in return. Just one of the reasons why we’re not still dating. Recently a match on Hinge asked me out instead. I was so impressed that I paid for dinner anyways! She did bring the drinks though, so it kinda evened out in the end.
Haha that's funny & true! But as a woman, I always pay for my own.
If you want to date her more than she wants to date you. You pay
How would she know that
Haven't you caught on yet? A concerning amount of women only want equality when it's convenient. Ask them to pay a check, protect themselves, or repair something themselves and suddenly they're a-ok with the patriarchy. Y'all can downvote me all you want but feminism will never move forward so long as women choose to perpetuate the parts of the patriarchy that they vl benefit from. You cannot destroy a system by perpetuating it
Absolute facts. I'm sick of it.
Yeah, that's super manipulative. They're always creating narratives that benefit them while avoiding accountability on their part. They'll also say "if he doesn't pay then he's not demonstrating that he can provide in the future". But the reality is that even a bum could gather 50 dollars to pay for a date, so when a man pays, it doesn't necessarily indicate anything.
It indicates generosity and lack of care over money. I don't want a penny pincher or a man that's obsessed with his money, is going to hold it over me. I have more than enough money to pay for my dinner. I'm seeing how you handle it, and if you have a problem picking up 1 tab. That tells me so much about that person. Why? Because they aren't grown up enough to talk about it before hand and I really don't want to be with someone who is going to resent me over a $60 dinner.
this is the answer. i like men who like doing nice things for me. i like doing nice things for people i love and wouldn’t date someone who isn’t generous.
Why do YOU have a problem picking up 1 tab though? I could say the same thing about you, about how you handle it and how you seem like a penny pincher. Especially when you admittedly have your own money.
This is only a problem if you don’t talk about it lol. If is a first date and you don’t want to pay the whole bill, just tell them before hand so they can bring enough money or they can choose if they want to go out or not. Obviously if you continue seeing this person for a long time and you have different interests that you want to share with each other, is normal that the woman who is inviting you to do something she wants would pay for both. Or viceversa. Don’t think too much in it.
This is like bitching about applying to jobs and how it’s unfair that jobs *you’re* seeking out because *you* don’t apply to you. When you’re a good prospective candidate, recruiters reach out and apply to the prospective candidate. If they’re not reaching out to you it’s either because (1) you’re not a good enough candidate or (2) you’re in a market where that just isn’t happening. Be a better candidate or change markets; but bitching about it will show every employer that you’re just lazy, entitled, and unwilling to put in the effort it takes to accomplish a goal. Who wants those traits in an employee?
If you plan on having children in the future, don't complain . Otherwise, okay
What do children have to do with who pays for a first date? Lol
If OP is that miserly, no woman is going to want to be a stay-at-home, part-timer mom for him. And that's what many people do these days bc childcare is insane.
It sets the pace for providing for those children later on
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Idc lol
It's not convenient, it's on purpose. Women don't want to put effort unless it's some 1% kind of guy like a celebrity, then all those rules go out the window. We already saw what happened with bumble; women had all the power to allow convos and prevent dick pics, but they would rather deal with that instead of starting a conversation. I guess we're at the point that we're just gotta keep beating around the bush of the problems with dating
Yeah.. honestly we should just stop dating them. Selfish human beings.
That's true
I'm a woman and I 100% agree
I feel like I’m living in some crazy bubble here because all these ‘norms’ and ‘rules’ have just never been a part of my life. I’m a 31 year old woman, I’ve been on literally hundreds of dates in my life (not all with different men, obviously) and I think a man has paid for the date in its entirety maybe twice. I’ve paid for the entire date probably 20% of the time. Every other time we’ve split it as close to 50/50 as possible. Is that not the norm?? And as for who’s asking who out - again, always been pretty much 50/50 in my experience. Sometimes I do the asking, sometimes I’ve been asked. Call me crazy but I don’t see dating expectations / experiences as a gendered thing. My partner now: I asked him out in the first place, he asked me for the second date, we both wanted to commit at the same time, we split the cost of drinks the first night we met at an event with other friends. On our first date we walked my dog together and each paid our own train fair to get to a local forest, then I took him for dinner after and paid, ever since then we split things 50/50 at first but after we got closer and discussed finances we now split things about 70/30 because I earn 2-3x what he does so I pay more, it’s not a big deal.
❤️
i get where you're coming from. it does seem like there's a bit of a double standard when it comes to who asks and who pays. ideally, both parties should feel comfortable asking each other out and sharing the cost. fairness and mutual effort are key in any relationship. having an open conversation about expectations can make things a lot smoother and more balanced for everyone involved.
1) nobody is forcing men to initiate a date with anyone 2) women ask men on dates too, you're just not being chosen
Sounds like a broke and forever alone problem 😴😴
You got me