If survivors use anti-tunnel aggressively ignore them or slug them. They are not doing gens during all the time they try to catch your attention. And as long as you don't pick them up they can only bodyblock once with endurance.
I have broken out full slug builds. I have two nasty slug builds one for pig and another for twins and boy they are brutal especially the twins build with Victor guarding my third seal. I don’t have to deal with any bs survivor perks it’s great.
But they still have to kick him right? Because I use victors body to block the totem. I didn’t know crouching by Victor made it so a survivor didn’t give killer instinct I know if your slugged Victor can still detect survivors.
If you physically block the totem with Victor, yes, they still have to kick him. But depending on map and your situation, you won't have enough time to protect the totem, especially when you are carrying someone.
That is, if you REALLY want the Hex to stay up. I personally use Hexes almost purely for slowdown...
The ignore them is funny because most of the time they will actively body block you.
And if you do go for them they DS you.
And if you slug them they Unbreakable.
There's a reason SWFs will play extremely aggressively against killers with these perks, because they control the pressure not the killer.
Unbreakable works once so... They waste it. Good job. They lose a perk and you find one of the other 3. Easy.
Please remember that official escape stats from BHVR gave a 60% survival rate for SWF's. These aren't untouchable gaming gods that can't lose.
Not even 60, it was like 48%, but of course, as I read the comments, 48% winrate for swf is Too Much, because Killers want to Reach 1000+ kill Streak. Oh Wait, some of the Killers already Reach that
Off the record and ds (unbreakable too) means there is functionally no punishment for being aggressive with it. A good swf can take advantage of these perks insanely well, and the gap widens ever farther
This is my (possibly) hot take:
Using three perk slots (two of which are single-use, and two that prevent repairing, healing, etc or they deactivate) is ABSOLUTELY a punishment for being aggressive with them as they chase around the kler or otherwise do nothing useful.
It's like the Sabo squads that take two hits to get one guy off your shoulder and have to go heal after wasting an entire chase staking behind you, meanwhile now you have 3 targets that only need a hit to down right next to you.
They could be using Resilience and Friendly Competition and Overzealous to speed out generators with a 24% to 34% (regular or hex cleanse is the difference) bonus on top of their toolbox speed (and still have Inner Strength to heal up from the totem they broke) to repairing generators.
There is a lost opportunity by using those perks, and it becomes even worse when they using them aggressively.
The game is a race to pop the generators before you run out of resources (hooks, pallets, items and limited perks, even good windows/tiles are used up if the remaining generators are across the map, you will not reach them).
An entire build and playstyle dedicated to not doing generators is a HUGE punishment for the survivors.
You might see that 1 in 2000 games where an SWF simply outloops you despite the handicap enough to pop all 5 gens, but that's just a skill issue.
AMEN. I don’t tunnel or slug unless it’s absolutely mandatory and that’s only when I vs like a comp swf that’s playing to win.
Outside of that though having survivors play builds expecting tunneling and such are a blessing to me.
Gens are all that matter. Everything else is secondary. Second chance perks help extend chase by either 0-30 seconds.
Gen perks, at their weakest, guarantee 5 second shorter gens to 30 seconds, at their strongest. (All solo) it is guaranteed. You don’t need to win a mind game. Now imagine that with an organized swf. The guranteed time shrink from gens is just better.
If you know how to not take bait and just don’t tunnel, get carless on picks, or slug you’ll instantly counter their builds while they waste 2 mins in the match goofing around.
I love swfs like that. Because I know I’ll likely win with my minimal slow down builds.
I just love when survivors just ignore completely that the reason killers are complaining is not the fact that it counters tunneling, but the fact that swfs will be able to abuse it, that being said, I dont know how bad 5 seconds will be. We will have to see in the ptb
We had 5 seconds for years. We don’t need to wait for the PTB to know how it’s playing out
The only thing different between this and the pre nerf DS is they’ve added an animation
And the fact that DS will now turn off if you touch a gen...unlike before where you could bait a generator grab and play with *actual* godmode for 60 seconds, now in order to force a DS you have to basically do nothing but throw yourself at the killer. It's essentially the same thing as people camping for flashy saves, they're not making progress the whole time they're trying to force it.
An interesting thing to me, they decided 5 seconds was too much in the past, but now 3 seconds is too little....
If only there was some number, maybe like, inbetween 3 and 5 that they could *try* and see if it's a good middle ground. Oh well, shame there's no such thing.
It's because it used to be a 5 second stun for the entire duration and they had free reign to do whatever they wanted during that time. 5 seconds was rough when they could do anything they wanted but now that they've made it deactivate the moment you try to repair a gen or heal someone they no longer are pressuring anything during that time. So the 5 second stun was brought back because now they aren't providing pressure if they can get value out of it.
My every single response pointing this out has been downvoted. People don't want the devs to notice this possible issue so they can have MORE Perks for bully SWFs back.
5 seconds is not the issue. The antitunnel isn't the issue. The fact that people will use it to be absolute assholes to others with stun into stun into stun into sabo when you DO down to make People DC and mine salt IS.
Sheesh, this thread is why I run Knockout, Nurse's, Unrelenting, and Lightborn and just UVX survivors to bleed on the ground. DS was always a problem in high MMRs. And to think I used to play as Pig with kind perks, roaring my happy roar, and bagging with survivors. Jesus, the survivors I go against have never deserved mercy less then now 😔😐
FTP+BU in the same team with someone running DS as an offense tactic forces TWO lose-lose scenarios at once. Either eat the DS, or eat the FTP+BU. What is the Killer meant to do there to stop a risky heal?
How can anyone think that's going to be OK? Because it's hard to pull off? That still doesn't make a forced lose-lose for nothing OK.
It takes about 6-7 seconds to down a bodyblocking survivor and wastes 24+ seconds of their time in the best case scenario and they lose their unbreakable, from my perspective that's a pretty good deal since the unbreakable will no longer be there to come up at a more crucial moment and if they 99 it and get picked up by a teammate well then at that point 75% of the team isn't doing gens which is value in and of itself. Will this be abused? Probably, but not as much as we're expecting I don't think, I reckon people will try it but it'll probably cool off after a while and if it is a problem the devs can always bump it down to 4 seconds.
Mfs use unbreakable and ds and will body lock the shit out of you because they know they’re invincible as long as they have the ds so that’s not going to work
I make sure to occasionally glance at them when the chase allows without stopping and just keep track of their location while not going out of my way to bother with them, "hey yeah you I see you and you don't matter", some take the hint, others get reckless and get into a really bad spot and give you a free down to slug without giving much distance to the other guy.
I am usually counting to 60 while chasing the other guy too.
Endurance -> run away -> locker -> DS -> run away -> Dead Hard -> finally go down. Anti Tunnel is good but people use anti tunnel to body block, break killers chase power (artist, Dredge) and just cause an issue
Locker jumping goofy ahh, they jump in when you try to down them and you can't even slug them for them overextending, totally healthy for the game yea keep letting survivor mains tell you that
I’ve been seeing this a lot lately where people put “ahh”. Do they mean “af” and autocorrect got them? It seems like it’s been in most places I’ve seen this and it’s been confusing me
Are they going to pilot a drone in the locker to do gens for them or are they just as useless in locker, because the way I see it, they're clearly just as useless
I'm raising knock out cause the anti tunnel perks can literally just be used whenever cause of body blocking so why not have a perk that makes every one have to deal with that one survivor trying to use it
Can't the survivor just bodyblock for their savior or force the killer to hit them (stay put in areas like doorways where it's impossible to pass unless you're Nurse or Sadako)? You can still get hit with DS even when you're not tunneling.
They can already do that. Everything you just described is already a thing that players can do on live right now
I don't think the extra 2 seconds on DS is gonna be the difference maker. Unless you're in a 4 man, running at the killer to try and make them eat DS is dumb as hell and is just a massive waste of time
As long as tunnelers get punished for tunneling, any buff to DS will be a yay.
It is however unfortunate for those killers that have to deal with sweaty SWFs that ruin tempo using those perks. I wish that a penalty would be added for using OTR+DS to take free protection hits.
I guarantee that this is going to punish non-tunnellers more than the tunnellers. People who go into a game wanting to tunnel are already playing killers who are very very good at it, where DS is barely going to change anything.
To a dedicated tunneller this is an inconvenience. To anyone else it's a frustrating weapon in the hands of survivors. I hate that the devs only balance around 1 scenario and don't stop to think what else a change might do because that means they'd have to do more work to cover those other scenarios.
Thats why I always liked the idea of DS disabling the killers power for 5-10 seconds after the stun. This wouldn't do anything to M1 killers, but it would hamper killers like Nurse/Blight a lot more
Some 4 mans do it though. I think the change is healthy, but there will definitely be outliers where low tier killers are punished by it. If the matchmaking was worth a damn we wouldn’t even have to worry about that kind of issue. Then low tier killers wouldn’t run against the kind of teams that force DS value.
but its not 2 seconds.
2 seconds is the difference maker between making it to that window or pallet and not. this will change a pretty big % of plays. if you make it to the window or pallet thats not 2 seconds...it's like 10-infinity seconds depending on how good the killer is.
Moris are definitely going to see a rise even if it doesnt work after the first hook. Simply due to the fact it will be a near guaranteed way to bypass decisive
People don't understand that a recently unhooked survivor also has collision and you can't just ignore them if they bodyblock you. And it shows, people have no idea how good, coordinated swfs play this game. It really shows people are below average players.
Yep. These people must have never seen a good SWF trying to protect a teammate who's on the death hook. 3 body blocks, and the situation is more or less a lose-lose for the killer because if he slug one of them, there'll be someone there to pick the other up, or they'll have Unbreakable, and with the time spent knocking down all three means the fourth will have long gone anyway.
Even hooking one of them means you've lost pressure, as the one that was on death hook is probably safe doing gens while they friends tell them where te killer are.
I don’t have much of a problem with it at all, but you do not play enough killer if you honestly think the only way to hit someone a minute after the unhook is by tunneling.
If the person still has DS a minute after the unhook and you weren't tunneling, that survivor was completely useless for that entire duration. You got more value out of the perk than the survivor did by that point.
How do people not realize this
Yeah this, people seem to forget that old ds was not broken because of 5 second stun, but because you could do generators, heal, unhook all while keeping ds and being able to use it even after those actions.
I genuinely believe there’s people who only play survivor and think the right thing to do would be to keep perfect track of the last person you hooked and refuse to down them, even if they practically charge you
I feel like if you make the conscious decision to STOP me from going after your unhooker instead of you, you should not get any benefit from anti-tunneling perks.
The problem is coding that. Protection hits happen if they’re nearby even if they aren’t trying to take a hit.
It’s better to make the unhooked survivor unable to body block or be hit for the duration.
Another issue: autoaim sometimes targets the wrong person. I have gone for unhookers at or near hooks during unhook animations or just shortly after or even while they are healing under the hook, and accidentally hit the unhooked person due to the autoaim. Now I look like a tunnelling asshole, when I didn't intend to be, and now I might get hit with DS if I miss again, down the unhooked person, and pick up. For NOT trying to tunnel.
If BHVR fixed this one problem, likely through touching up the protection hit system and making it deactivate on that, I genuinely think DS would be a perfect perk. That and the lose-lose locker nonsense
Not sure if this is an unpopular opinion but I kinda feel like flashlight blinding the killer should deactivate DS so you don't have flashlight players hovering around with DS + OTR when you try to chase the unhooker.
This is the crazy thing; people are acting like this is some unpredictable change when we literally had this before, except it worked during egc. I feel like when it got nerfed to 3 seconds, people were confused why it got reduced.
"Just play normally"
"You're just tunneling"
When it's more like: "I wish survivors would play normally rather than using anti-tunneling perks to play aggressively instead of to protect themselves from actual tunneling"
That would still be at best a clunky solution, giving that then the otr/dstrike survivor could just walk inside of the survivor he wants to protect, ensuring they get hit due to hitbox detection
Remove their collision box and their hit box both. Can’t bodyblock, can’t be hit. Making them un-hittable and deactivating it if they do anything is better than what we have now.
play dredge, befriend one of the survivors, when the ds user hops in the locker have your survivor friend lock them in. now they cannot escape unless you break the lock off.
If they body block just hit them and continue going after the person you were chasing…? Why are you standing around for 9 seconds refusing to tap them? As soon as you do they’ll leave
im not denying that that's the ideal play in this situation, i'm saying the devs should probably remove collision on unhooked survivors so they can't use a defensive anti-toxicity mechanic offensively
I mean you could eat the ds, it's not that strong. Or you can just leave, that survivor will likely waste more time trying to bait you into pulling them from a locker
you will notice the perk because survivors will body block with and it cause they want to be noticed and have value from the perk.
it will by manageable and most of times the survivor doing this can be ignored your right but there some situations where they can fully block you or jump in a locker in your face. overall its change that needed to happen tunneling was to prolific but this will affect killers who never choose to tunnel too.
I remember DS when it 5 seconds survivors want the perk to be used when they aren't tunneled too, lockers will be the best way to bait this with fake jump outs so killer grabs ect when they meant to swing there's lots of way to do this.
Reminder: this is a nothing burger response.
Having this perk be so good, at 5 seconds, means that if anyone wants to do well, they will have to chuck out a 5 pound fee. Ass, I hate that.
The problem with this rework is that it is a lazy one that doesn't focus or fix on the actual issue, killers that can ignore the distance gained from ds.
A good nurse can still just blink and down you just as fast as 3 second stun.
The 3 sec stun was good vs m1 killers, so make the ds disable powers, so that all killers are effected equally, then the perk can be balanced accordingly.
I genuinely wouldn't mind if the stun was longer than 3 seconds if ds temporarily disabled powers, because then bhvr can change the stun value easily if it's too much or not.
I just really wanted to see this change, and it's annoying seeing everyone settle for more unfairness in perks
the perk is meant to help you get away, not as a guarantee to get away. if you’re being tunneled and know you’re going down soon, the smart play would be to get as close to a loop as possible in order for DS to get its full potential. If DS doesn’t prolong your chase when used by a pallet or a window loop then it’s a skill issue on the survivor’s part,
I mean, I gotta say have you played killer enough to experience just how often survivors right off hook will run to body block for their homies. That’s when it’s gonna suck when I don’t have a way around them and then have to be like “wel guess you can enjoy the floor and your homies will pick you up and it’s not worth me doing it. I think that it’s not the right change but it’s better than nothing for now
The perk was weak. For a one-time use with a very short window to use it, it gave very little in the sense of anti tunnel. The buff is very, very justified.
As for body blocking off hook, for the most part I don't see that happen all too often. And there are scenarios where it's an ideal play. Say, you have one gen left that's at 50% progress or so and someone is working on it. One of you is dead, one is on hook, and one is dead on hook. Let's say the one dead on hook is getting the save, and the one off hook only has *one* hook. It's ideal to get the killer to tunnel the person off hook rather than maybe lose another survivor before the last generator done. 2 people with one injured when the last gen pops is not ideal at all. It could easily become a 4k
Right but then if you wanna make the sacrifice play of body block with the endurance you also shouldn’t get to get out of getting hooked again and killed. That’s a sacrifice play. Ya still gonna die to the nurse or the blight but I’m over here on a dredge and wraith getting punished for someone making a sacrifice play. Also, just buff some of the generic perks! Why is it Laurie where she costs 5 bucks and the rest of her perks suck ass
Just because you don't see it (body-blocking off hook) often doesnt mean it's perfectly fine with DS in play. Hell it might as well go back to the unbreakable decisive days where its damned if you leave them slugged or damned if you pick them up and get DS'd and their unhooker gets to run away scot-free in both cases.
slugging doesn’t actually take time or contribute to winning unless you slug everyone. Don’t act like they not running unbreakable or off the record to make it longer.
Slugging a survivor and staying in chase is worth more pressure than taking the survivor and hooking them again
With the survivor back on hook (unless its death hook) you have 1 survivor on hook, and one preparing to get the save, which is 2 survivors off the gens
If i slug the survivor and keep chasing the unhooker now I've got 3 survivors off gens, 1 in chase, 1 on the floor, and another coming to get the one off the floor, it might not be a very long time, but its still more pressure than just letting said unhooker go and re hooking the person who decided to body block
It’s not that simple all the time. There are times where the recently unhooked survivor will get in your way when you are clearly chasing someone else. Other times, you can’t find anybody except for the recently unhooked survivor and you either tunnel them or you walk around looking for someone else and potentially waste a bunch of time for nothing.
I’m not super worried about the changes myself, but it’s very obviously going to affect most killers, regardless of them intentionally tunneling or not.
I like how people are acting like you can't act aggressively with OTR/DS/DH/etc RIGHT NOW outside the PTB. 2 second longer stun only slightly makes the play style stronger, but doesn't make it broken.
It's not as strong as it could be. Look at old DS that essentially gave immunity. A 2 second longer stun won't make that play style as strong as say, literally playing regularly. As killer, you can ignore the guy with the build and continue going for their buddy, which is 2 people not on gens. Or if he annoys you enough, just slug em and continue chasing the unhooker. I'm not saying it WON'T be frustrating, I'm just saying it'll be just another thing solo q will somehow fuck up and only work in top tier 4 mans, which is rare enough.
"It's not as strong as it could be" is a weak defence and you know it. Whenever a perk gets buffed it usually sees a lot of use immediately afterwards. When 4 survivors are running this every game because either "yay I got my old ds back, now I can bully weak killers" or "yay we got a buff" it's going to get obnoxious real quick.
People are really upset that they can’t tunnel so hard anymore. Yes, some players will use it more aggressively, but I would rather have survivors using a perk aggressively for 60 seconds as opposed to the majority of killers in the game tunneling someone out at 5 gens.
Nah people just don’t like that a majority of good survivors will use it aggressively. Yea lower ranks will definitely get value from it being anti tunnel but you’re naive if you really think it’s just “some players” using it aggressively. Just like body blocking off the hook is a constant thing
After all, experienced players have seen this film before and believe me, it was bad and it partly led to survivors having the same build all the time.
Bro people can still tunnel hard lol DS is going to make that take longer but do you really think killers aren’t still going to want that surv off the board? *Especially* once they know you don’t have it anymore?
You really gonna pretend absolutely no one uses DS offensively? I literally had a game yesterday where I downed someone, noticed someone with a flashlight was nearby so chased them, hit them then they jumped in a locker and when I grabbed them they ds'd me. Guess I was tunneling them?
I just hate that it's another change that punishes weaker killers far more than stronger ones. Survivors already aggressively use DS (when they actually have it) because they know they can waste the killers time mid-chase.. and then complain if they get slugged. So either you hit the guy with endurance because they've body blocked in a way where you can't get around them (so now you may as well hit them again because they are closest and more valuable than the survivor who is even further away), or you wait out the 10 seconds to try and punish the body blocking, go to pick up and get DS'd, or you wait out the 10 seconds, slug and then either deal with toxicity or buckle up ftp. Or hell, just a normal ass pickup because you're on the other side of the map chasing someone else (who now has a lot of distance).
Nurse isn't going to care much. Blight wont care much. Neither will the a tier killers. But your freddies, pigs, trappers, doctors and such are going to just get bullied (even more than they already are).
Little bro seriously thinks that survivors never use their "antitunnel" perks aggressively and seriously says that killers who tunnel have no skill when it is the only correct play most of the time...
This sort of build will likely also cause issues. Imagine an undownable, unhookable Survivor. The only reason it's not actually an issue with No Mither is because you have to be broken all round if you do this.
So long as it still deactivates when a survivor touches a gen/heals.
Having a survivor do a gen in your face because they know you can't do shit about it was obnoxious.
People said the exact same thing in 2021. Remind everyone how an average match went back then, will ya? Cause I still remember it like it was yesterday.
Boy those rank 1 lobbies were fun.
DS, Deadhard, Unbreakable, Adrenaline - Medi with Syptic
DS, Deadhard, Unbreakable, Adrenaline - Medi with Syptic
DS, Deadhard, Unbreakable, Adrenaline - Purple Beamer
DS, Deadhard, Unbreakable, Adrenaline - Tool box with BNP
Yeah but sometimes it's kinda hard to find other people other than the one you just unhooked because everyone is playing stealthy and they are healthy. Not much counterplay unless you have information perks or playing an information killer, which not everyone does.
Yeah. But like, it's difficult to play as killer when you can't find anyone and the only person you do find just got unhooked. You don't want to tunnel but you kind of have to
Tunneling will help you win the game if done right and will cost you the game if done wrong. Personally, if I want to win I could care less about whether people want me to tunnel or not. The salt in the end game chat is an added bonus lol i always try to do whatever makes the most sense in a given situation as most killers do so if I see an injured surv who just got unhooked and the teammate didnt take aggro youre damn right im going to tunnel. Ive had teams straight up throw the entire game trying to save one person from being tunneled. Play how you want and dont let the shaming influence your decision making. Survivors have already proven time and time again (myself included) that they will exploit whatever gets them a win. Remember when you could phase into a locker using a flashlight a while back? Guess what? Plenty of teams were abusing this because they could and killers had no power to stop it and plenty of folks were saying “Yea that’s what ya’ll get for tunneling and camping” lol the hypocrisy is insane. Get your W bro. If they play dirty do that shit right back regardless of which role youre playing.
Within 60 seconds the unhooked survivor can get fully healed by another survivor and bait you into tunneling them to get value out of it, appearing as if they already lost it. That's the only thing I'm worried about, this already happens in matches and now survivors will be even more incentivized to do this. The amount of time you can gain by wasting the killer's time with DS is severe enough that many decent killers lost matches to it.
Other than that, the buff is justified. 3 seconds of stun was not good enough.
False, it was 60 seconds before and there would be plenty of times you would find that survivor again and get hit with it. Yes largely you’ll avoid it if you don’t tunnel but let’s not act like it’s impossible to get hit with it other than that. Or even having survivors using it offensively
So the survivor literally didn't progress the game for a full minute. Cool. If you're getting hit by it where you let them go, come across them, and then try to hook them, wait 10 or so seconds to pick them up. Literally so easy.
Getting a minute of protection where you can't get hooked TWICE in one minute if you hit the skill check and don't progress the game is such a nothing perk. I haven't been hit by DS in over a year.
I think this post fundamentally misunderstands the difference in power and how a killer must approach swf in particular as once you are above a certain skill threshold perks like this become fundamentally overpowered with high level swf. The greater and only issue with perks like this is there should either be swf specific limits or we need to address the overall difference in power between swf and solo groups
I think too many people are having flashbacks to when DS was just free wasted time against the killer for the survivor. I think people are missing a few key facts:
1. Conspicuous actions didn't exist prior to this.
2. Off The Record is honestly better at being a "post-unhook bully perk" now than DS (another balance issue entirely but I digress.)
3. Much like before, you can just slug the survivor if you think they have DS. Or not tunnel.
Endgame DS was the most awful thing to exist and I hope it never comes back.
Make DS last ten seconds for all I care, just don't make it work at Endgame.
1. Bodyblocking the killer isn't a conspicuous action.
2. Good news you can use OTR and DS together! As well as DH, and Unbreakable. The new meta awaits!
3. Survivors would never run unbreakable when they know they're going to play aggressive after unhooks!
Sure hope I never have a situation where I have to down a survivor blocking a doorway after unhook.
Guess I'll just continue to stare down the barrel of learning nurse instead of playing the 25+ killers who get dumpstered by a 5 second stun.
Save the Best was nerfed, Sloppy was nerfed, now we have 5 second DS stun to really beat it in your head that playing over 2/3 the killer roster is going to be overly frustrating. I'm thrilled.
It’s easy to tell when someone is using OTR and/or DS because they will be unnecessarily aggressive or in DS’s case, jump stupidly into lockers. Just wait it out or leave them, period. If you’re determined to chase or tunnel a survivor for more than the appropriate amount of time, it’s kind of the killers fault if they pull that shit off.
I literally don't care about what any killer main has to say about this change. Tunneling and Proxy Camping has been on the GREATEST rise for a long time. We didn't need to buff DS again if that wasn't an issue happening...
I don’t tunnel off hook, I always go for the unhooker if I’m nearby and I’m usually not, I never tunnel off hook, but I will down someone off hook if I down the ubhooker and the person who was on hook has a flashlight
If I'm being honest, I don't think this change is gonna do much. We already have OTR which does a lot more and last longer and any more anti tunnels on the same build is gonna lead to survivors being unnecessarily under resourced. Maybe id be more interested if the other anti-tunnels were nerfed, but as it stands old DS coming back ain't gonna cause waves
So we're just gonna pretend like a concerning amount of survivors even in solo queue love to use DS aggressively to find killers half way across the map with OTF to bodyblock or force them to eat it. while you're in a chase with a completely different person. Then call you a slur in chat or DM if you do fall for it?
And we're not even gonna being up the buckle up and Ftp nonsense used to prolong chases and bully M1 killers.
I would know cause I use it too, not the calling people slur part, the strong arming the killer to eat your otr or ds. B
I’m coming to realize more and more every day the Average dbd player isn’t high Mmr.
Strong teams don’t use it to stop tunneling it they use it to force downs.
They will go for a bad save on a good gen that you’re regressing to stop the regression from being super hard, the off hook survivor will force you to chase them body blocking doors windows throwing pallets while you’re chasing the unhooked you lose so much time that it is now trolling go ignore them. You down them, they pray you pick you get decisive striked. Like this isn’t a rare or new concept it’s been getting abused for a long time but it doesn’t matter i use to main pyramid head but got bored of him guess we back ❤️😮💨
One thing that always bother me about this "play normal" talk is if a survivor put them selves in position to be tunneled am I just supposed to let them go ? Sometimes it's a skill issue with the survivors.
the only thing that annoys me with DS is how certain maps can drastically improve the perk. I play to 12 hook and it’s annoying for them to block a hallway in a map like meat plant near the freezer with OTR/DS to take me out of a chase
5 second stun is still so much better than when you were able to sit on a gen as a "fuck you" or going down during endgame knowing you had ds to fall back on
The only thing I think they should change is that ds can only work if they pick you up off the ground so that way body blocking survivors can’t just hop in a locker and force them to grab you instead of slugging them.
Ah yes, ye olde "if you don't like my anti-*this* perk, you *must* be a *this*-er!"
My first time encountering it was with the Borrowed Time change which made borrowed time activate on every unhook. I took issue with the fact that there was now no reason to **not** run the perk, as it went from anti-camping to anti-everything. I said it should just be base-kit, at that point. Keep in mind that this was before base-kit BT was a thing.
Somehow or another, people decided that argument meant I was *pro-camping*! And it's like...
I don't have to be pro-camping to have a problem with the anti-camping perk.
As such, I don't have to be pro-tunneling to have a problem with the supposed "anti-tunneling" perk.
Let me say the quiet part out loud; nobody needs to do "mental gymnastics" to justify tunneling because tunneling doesn't need to be justified. While not fun for the tunneled, the results speak for themselves. Even if they didn't... it's a game and people can do what they want. Yes, you can complain about it, but that doesn't necessarily mean every complaint is valid.
Seeing you accuse others of "mental gymnastics" just to immediately imply that tunneling killers aren't basing their play-style on pressure is absurdly contradictory and self-defeating.
Sure, tunneling is an effective strategy. But if that’s the case, survivors should have a way to try and counter it. Splitting gens is an effective strategy too, hence why perks like DMS attempt to punish it. The game should be about risk/reward, not handouts so one side doesn’t have to work for their win condition.
You do realize that sometimes you will, completely naturally, run into a survivor who was unhooked in the last 60 seconds? And that survivors will sometimes intentionally fake being caught out of place in order to use DS, even at its currently weaker 3s duration?
60 seconds is a pretty long time in DBD regardless.
i dont have a massive issue with the this change but this post screams of someone who has no idea how its actually used in real games, its never as simple as dont tunnel
You’re forgetting the fact that survivors can run literally anything else along with ds. Mainly unbreakable. You either wait out the Ds and let them pick themselves up and have 40 seconds of no real pressure or you pick them up, suck up the ds and waste even more time
This is fine and dandy until you see yourself going about your business spreading hooks and then some asshole fresh off the hook comes to body block for the survivor that you're currently chasing. Killers already have many things to keep in mind, and so it's not uncommon to forget about who has been hooked in the last 60 seconds. Being punished for 5 seconds (plus hit cooldowns and whatnot) when you weren't even trying to tunnel is not cool.
Yes, tunneling is running rampant and it needs to be addressed. But let's not pretend that survivors don't weaponize their so-called anti-tunneling perks.
Just last night I got DS'd three times in one game. The players used it aggressively and took the chase on purpose, not because I intended or went out of my way to tunnel, but because they wanted to use the perk. Players can and will use DS aggressively if they want to.
You decided to pick up survivor knowing damn well DS exists and timer is still up if it is in play. If they're literally following you even while you're chasing someone else, that's just free pressure, and if they fuck up and go down, slug them, that's even more pressure. You did this to yourself.
Ikr? Like, there is not a single way they can "force" DS on you:
Bodyblock? Hit them and you're free to go.
Downed? Don't pick up. Unbreakable? Still free pressure+they can't use it in critical snowball later. Someone picks them up instead? Again, free pressure, 2not doing gens.
Locker? Leave them, don't stand there like UK guardsman.
Slow vault out/into locker, window or pallet to bait grab? Swing hit, don't click it, and you'll down them instead of grab. What to do with downed, see point 1.
Also horrid take i saw "what if they get healed and bait you into chase making you think they self healed and lost DS". So even if, let's say it was 12s heal from teammate (50% from unhook filled with Jill perk and self heal with medkit is realistic time for self heal to be believable), then killer has to be on your ass right after, somehow not notice unhooker healing you to figure out it wasn't self heal, chase full health survivor for less than a minute (and if surv forces quick down, that's inefficient for time wasted in heal), and then insta pickups you while DS is on last seconds. So many stars to align for a *chance* to bait DS.
It's like people seriously don't wanna learn macro, crutching on cheese strats to compensate, and now have to deal with consequences. The only way DS buff can hurt players is if they are genuine tunneler and not in a smart way with doing it in endgame or focusing only 2 survivors for quick kill, but literal clone of "I LOVE TUNNELING" nemesis meme and relentlessly focusing out first hook till death no matter what, won't even bother if protectors go down for them.
Honestly can't wait to see pubs running ds/otr/dh and what else, that just means I can play without much tunnel as usual and they have perks that do almost nothing.
People use identical cosmetics. Killers don't have a hook counter and it's easy to forget who you have hooked and not when you're juggling a bunch of stuff. Even very good killer players like otz lose track of who they have and have not hooked. It's entirely possible to get hit by DS without intentionally targeting someone. In fact I'd say it used to happen pretty often. I know I don't always keep track of who I hooked and when.
That's not the issue. The issue is if a baby trapper tries to tunnel, he will get punished, which is okay. But if a Blight wants to tunnel, well GG, he can catch up to you pretty fast again.
I think we will end up with a monkey pawn situation with the DS buff honestly (it sounds perfect on paper, but it's hard to day without the PTB).
Have a legitimate counter to tunneling but have an aggressive and frustrating meta to go against, OR, have an useless perk that at least no one can abuse.
In my opinion have DS deactivate when fully healed and when entering a locker. It would still be a good anti-tunneling perk, but it won't be played on a overly aggressive way I believe.
Tunneling is not inherently toxic tunneling is not inherently toxic tunneling is not inherently toxic
Not complaining about DS at all, or it’s buff. But tunneling is not inherently toxic. Sometimes it’s the most efficient way to play at a given moment. Most killers that tunnel aren’t doing it solely to ruin your game. They’re just playing to win, and at that moment, tunneling is the most effective path toward winning.
The people saying just don’t tunnel are either new to the game and don’t remember when DS used to be 5 seconds or the same survivor mains running OTR and unbreakable with DS in the “old” days. it was so annoying when you just had to slug the bodyblocker since that was the only option and then you were still punished for slugging because oh yea they have unbreakable all the while that “free” pressure you have goes away in 24 seconds because of unbreakable granted this will be a one time thing and goes away in endgame this will still be abused hardcore, and you will see 4man swfs running the same meta we saw a couple of years ago
People r really acting like they're just upset bodyblocking or whatever is going to become a problem when for the majority of us average players in solo queue... People don't do that for you off hook! Maybe rarely in endgame, maybe on that off occasion your solo queue teammates actually try to help you when you're being tunneled, but most of the time I do not see people using ds offensively but as a (usually futile) attempt to prolong being tunneled out.
You get the rare occasional person who uses their endurance or whatever to body block but honestly it's usually an accident because of i-frames and timing / positioning during unhook. Again, I'm speaking for my level of play, which I consider average.
I had matches weaponizing DS at the beginning of the week. It’ll be worse now. That’s all I care about. It’ll be seen more because survivors will abuse it the same way they abuse BT.
The perk isn’t the problem, the players are.
If survivors use anti-tunnel aggressively ignore them or slug them. They are not doing gens during all the time they try to catch your attention. And as long as you don't pick them up they can only bodyblock once with endurance.
Time to break out tombstone. ☠️
🤝
My fellow killer main - I like how you think.
I have broken out full slug builds. I have two nasty slug builds one for pig and another for twins and boy they are brutal especially the twins build with Victor guarding my third seal. I don’t have to deal with any bs survivor perks it’s great.
Watch out that Vic can't see crouching survivors.
But they still have to kick him right? Because I use victors body to block the totem. I didn’t know crouching by Victor made it so a survivor didn’t give killer instinct I know if your slugged Victor can still detect survivors.
If you physically block the totem with Victor, yes, they still have to kick him. But depending on map and your situation, you won't have enough time to protect the totem, especially when you are carrying someone. That is, if you REALLY want the Hex to stay up. I personally use Hexes almost purely for slowdown...
The point is in a slug build, you dont pick anyone up
The ignore them is funny because most of the time they will actively body block you. And if you do go for them they DS you. And if you slug them they Unbreakable. There's a reason SWFs will play extremely aggressively against killers with these perks, because they control the pressure not the killer.
Unbreakable works once so... They waste it. Good job. They lose a perk and you find one of the other 3. Easy. Please remember that official escape stats from BHVR gave a 60% survival rate for SWF's. These aren't untouchable gaming gods that can't lose.
Not even 60, it was like 48%, but of course, as I read the comments, 48% winrate for swf is Too Much, because Killers want to Reach 1000+ kill Streak. Oh Wait, some of the Killers already Reach that
Off the record and ds (unbreakable too) means there is functionally no punishment for being aggressive with it. A good swf can take advantage of these perks insanely well, and the gap widens ever farther
This is my (possibly) hot take: Using three perk slots (two of which are single-use, and two that prevent repairing, healing, etc or they deactivate) is ABSOLUTELY a punishment for being aggressive with them as they chase around the kler or otherwise do nothing useful. It's like the Sabo squads that take two hits to get one guy off your shoulder and have to go heal after wasting an entire chase staking behind you, meanwhile now you have 3 targets that only need a hit to down right next to you. They could be using Resilience and Friendly Competition and Overzealous to speed out generators with a 24% to 34% (regular or hex cleanse is the difference) bonus on top of their toolbox speed (and still have Inner Strength to heal up from the totem they broke) to repairing generators. There is a lost opportunity by using those perks, and it becomes even worse when they using them aggressively. The game is a race to pop the generators before you run out of resources (hooks, pallets, items and limited perks, even good windows/tiles are used up if the remaining generators are across the map, you will not reach them). An entire build and playstyle dedicated to not doing generators is a HUGE punishment for the survivors. You might see that 1 in 2000 games where an SWF simply outloops you despite the handicap enough to pop all 5 gens, but that's just a skill issue.
AMEN. I don’t tunnel or slug unless it’s absolutely mandatory and that’s only when I vs like a comp swf that’s playing to win. Outside of that though having survivors play builds expecting tunneling and such are a blessing to me. Gens are all that matter. Everything else is secondary. Second chance perks help extend chase by either 0-30 seconds. Gen perks, at their weakest, guarantee 5 second shorter gens to 30 seconds, at their strongest. (All solo) it is guaranteed. You don’t need to win a mind game. Now imagine that with an organized swf. The guranteed time shrink from gens is just better. If you know how to not take bait and just don’t tunnel, get carless on picks, or slug you’ll instantly counter their builds while they waste 2 mins in the match goofing around. I love swfs like that. Because I know I’ll likely win with my minimal slow down builds.
I just love when survivors just ignore completely that the reason killers are complaining is not the fact that it counters tunneling, but the fact that swfs will be able to abuse it, that being said, I dont know how bad 5 seconds will be. We will have to see in the ptb
We had 5 seconds for years. We don’t need to wait for the PTB to know how it’s playing out The only thing different between this and the pre nerf DS is they’ve added an animation
And the fact that DS will now turn off if you touch a gen...unlike before where you could bait a generator grab and play with *actual* godmode for 60 seconds, now in order to force a DS you have to basically do nothing but throw yourself at the killer. It's essentially the same thing as people camping for flashy saves, they're not making progress the whole time they're trying to force it.
An interesting thing to me, they decided 5 seconds was too much in the past, but now 3 seconds is too little.... If only there was some number, maybe like, inbetween 3 and 5 that they could *try* and see if it's a good middle ground. Oh well, shame there's no such thing.
I’m howling
It's because it used to be a 5 second stun for the entire duration and they had free reign to do whatever they wanted during that time. 5 seconds was rough when they could do anything they wanted but now that they've made it deactivate the moment you try to repair a gen or heal someone they no longer are pressuring anything during that time. So the 5 second stun was brought back because now they aren't providing pressure if they can get value out of it.
My every single response pointing this out has been downvoted. People don't want the devs to notice this possible issue so they can have MORE Perks for bully SWFs back. 5 seconds is not the issue. The antitunnel isn't the issue. The fact that people will use it to be absolute assholes to others with stun into stun into stun into sabo when you DO down to make People DC and mine salt IS.
Sheesh, this thread is why I run Knockout, Nurse's, Unrelenting, and Lightborn and just UVX survivors to bleed on the ground. DS was always a problem in high MMRs. And to think I used to play as Pig with kind perks, roaring my happy roar, and bagging with survivors. Jesus, the survivors I go against have never deserved mercy less then now 😔😐
FTP+BU in the same team with someone running DS as an offense tactic forces TWO lose-lose scenarios at once. Either eat the DS, or eat the FTP+BU. What is the Killer meant to do there to stop a risky heal? How can anyone think that's going to be OK? Because it's hard to pull off? That still doesn't make a forced lose-lose for nothing OK.
It takes about 6-7 seconds to down a bodyblocking survivor and wastes 24+ seconds of their time in the best case scenario and they lose their unbreakable, from my perspective that's a pretty good deal since the unbreakable will no longer be there to come up at a more crucial moment and if they 99 it and get picked up by a teammate well then at that point 75% of the team isn't doing gens which is value in and of itself. Will this be abused? Probably, but not as much as we're expecting I don't think, I reckon people will try it but it'll probably cool off after a while and if it is a problem the devs can always bump it down to 4 seconds.
Mfs use unbreakable and ds and will body lock the shit out of you because they know they’re invincible as long as they have the ds so that’s not going to work
How do you aggressively ignore something?
Ask my ex
I make sure to occasionally glance at them when the chase allows without stopping and just keep track of their location while not going out of my way to bother with them, "hey yeah you I see you and you don't matter", some take the hint, others get reckless and get into a really bad spot and give you a free down to slug without giving much distance to the other guy. I am usually counting to 60 while chasing the other guy too.
Endurance -> run away -> locker -> DS -> run away -> Dead Hard -> finally go down. Anti Tunnel is good but people use anti tunnel to body block, break killers chase power (artist, Dredge) and just cause an issue
This is the problem nobody seems to care about. Devs will notice and will change it eventually. And when they do, people won't like it.
Locker jumping goofy ahh, they jump in when you try to down them and you can't even slug them for them overextending, totally healthy for the game yea keep letting survivor mains tell you that
I’ve been seeing this a lot lately where people put “ahh”. Do they mean “af” and autocorrect got them? It seems like it’s been in most places I’ve seen this and it’s been confusing me
I've also seen it as a stand in for 'ass' and assume it's just an intended slang at this point. Like my personal favourite 'i forgor'
am 23, can confirm you're correct
Are they going to pilot a drone in the locker to do gens for them or are they just as useless in locker, because the way I see it, they're clearly just as useless
is this really going to solve anything though? the real toxic killers will just wait out the DS timer.
I'm raising knock out cause the anti tunnel perks can literally just be used whenever cause of body blocking so why not have a perk that makes every one have to deal with that one survivor trying to use it
Ive had too many survivors not know that the invulnerability is only for one hit
Can't the survivor just bodyblock for their savior or force the killer to hit them (stay put in areas like doorways where it's impossible to pass unless you're Nurse or Sadako)? You can still get hit with DS even when you're not tunneling.
They can already do that. Everything you just described is already a thing that players can do on live right now I don't think the extra 2 seconds on DS is gonna be the difference maker. Unless you're in a 4 man, running at the killer to try and make them eat DS is dumb as hell and is just a massive waste of time
Except the extra 2 seconds means more people will run DS, especially right after the buff because "YAAAY WE GOT DS BACK"
As long as tunnelers get punished for tunneling, any buff to DS will be a yay. It is however unfortunate for those killers that have to deal with sweaty SWFs that ruin tempo using those perks. I wish that a penalty would be added for using OTR+DS to take free protection hits.
I guarantee that this is going to punish non-tunnellers more than the tunnellers. People who go into a game wanting to tunnel are already playing killers who are very very good at it, where DS is barely going to change anything. To a dedicated tunneller this is an inconvenience. To anyone else it's a frustrating weapon in the hands of survivors. I hate that the devs only balance around 1 scenario and don't stop to think what else a change might do because that means they'd have to do more work to cover those other scenarios.
2 seconds really fucking does lol, it gives so much more distance, not enough to bother nurse, spirits or blights. Only to bother the m1 killers
Thats why I always liked the idea of DS disabling the killers power for 5-10 seconds after the stun. This wouldn't do anything to M1 killers, but it would hamper killers like Nurse/Blight a lot more
This should have been the rework.
BHVR would rather just change some numbers instead of doing actual work sadly.
Some 4 mans do it though. I think the change is healthy, but there will definitely be outliers where low tier killers are punished by it. If the matchmaking was worth a damn we wouldn’t even have to worry about that kind of issue. Then low tier killers wouldn’t run against the kind of teams that force DS value.
but its not 2 seconds. 2 seconds is the difference maker between making it to that window or pallet and not. this will change a pretty big % of plays. if you make it to the window or pallet thats not 2 seconds...it's like 10-infinity seconds depending on how good the killer is.
Definitely going to be abused to body block and DS to escape again.
Isn't it deactivated in the endgame
I dont mind when survivors do this, as it gives me a reason to actually tunnel them since DS would be out of the way.
Moris are definitely going to see a rise even if it doesnt work after the first hook. Simply due to the fact it will be a near guaranteed way to bypass decisive
People don't understand that a recently unhooked survivor also has collision and you can't just ignore them if they bodyblock you. And it shows, people have no idea how good, coordinated swfs play this game. It really shows people are below average players.
Yep. These people must have never seen a good SWF trying to protect a teammate who's on the death hook. 3 body blocks, and the situation is more or less a lose-lose for the killer because if he slug one of them, there'll be someone there to pick the other up, or they'll have Unbreakable, and with the time spent knocking down all three means the fourth will have long gone anyway. Even hooking one of them means you've lost pressure, as the one that was on death hook is probably safe doing gens while they friends tell them where te killer are.
I don’t have much of a problem with it at all, but you do not play enough killer if you honestly think the only way to hit someone a minute after the unhook is by tunneling.
If the person still has DS a minute after the unhook and you weren't tunneling, that survivor was completely useless for that entire duration. You got more value out of the perk than the survivor did by that point. How do people not realize this
Yeah this, people seem to forget that old ds was not broken because of 5 second stun, but because you could do generators, heal, unhook all while keeping ds and being able to use it even after those actions.
Yeah he sounds salty af, sometimes LITERALLY the only people you see are the ones you unhooked. Shit happens
I genuinely believe there’s people who only play survivor and think the right thing to do would be to keep perfect track of the last person you hooked and refuse to down them, even if they practically charge you
Truly. I’m sorry if you’re running around in my face, I’m gonna knock ya 😂
I'm just not looking forward to survivors being aggressive with it and endurance, the body blocking.
I feel like if you make the conscious decision to STOP me from going after your unhooker instead of you, you should not get any benefit from anti-tunneling perks.
The problem is coding that. Protection hits happen if they’re nearby even if they aren’t trying to take a hit. It’s better to make the unhooked survivor unable to body block or be hit for the duration.
Another issue: autoaim sometimes targets the wrong person. I have gone for unhookers at or near hooks during unhook animations or just shortly after or even while they are healing under the hook, and accidentally hit the unhooked person due to the autoaim. Now I look like a tunnelling asshole, when I didn't intend to be, and now I might get hit with DS if I miss again, down the unhooked person, and pick up. For NOT trying to tunnel.
Unrelated but holy shit someone remembers Omen :O
If BHVR fixed this one problem, likely through touching up the protection hit system and making it deactivate on that, I genuinely think DS would be a perfect perk. That and the lose-lose locker nonsense
Not sure if this is an unpopular opinion but I kinda feel like flashlight blinding the killer should deactivate DS so you don't have flashlight players hovering around with DS + OTR when you try to chase the unhooker.
I mean a survivor who is following you around is a survivor not doing gens.
Perhaps Forced Penance may see a rise in use.
Nah, Just Slug. The same as it was when it was 5 seconds before.
This is the crazy thing; people are acting like this is some unpredictable change when we literally had this before, except it worked during egc. I feel like when it got nerfed to 3 seconds, people were confused why it got reduced.
Slugging to avoid a 5 second stun, how exciting. Looks like it’s back to DS unbreakable
Get ready for unbreakable then, if your answer (not you specifically) to not tunneling is slugging you're a sweaty ass loser lol
"Just play normally" "You're just tunneling" When it's more like: "I wish survivors would play normally rather than using anti-tunneling perks to play aggressively instead of to protect themselves from actual tunneling"
A simple addition to address these concerns is giving endurance no collision with other players
Wait, do you have endurance while you have DS? But yes, I agree.
You don’t on its own, but usually if someone’s running DS, DH or OTR are usually included as well
That would still be at best a clunky solution, giving that then the otr/dstrike survivor could just walk inside of the survivor he wants to protect, ensuring they get hit due to hitbox detection
Change priority to the one without it
just make the no collusion rule for survivor and killer touching not other teammates.
Remove their collision box and their hit box both. Can’t bodyblock, can’t be hit. Making them un-hittable and deactivating it if they do anything is better than what we have now.
\>get unhooked \>bodyblock for 8-9 seconds \>hop in locker what are you meant to do as killer here
Cry or find a way to add locking lockers to DBD
We have that, it’s called Dredge
play dredge, befriend one of the survivors, when the ds user hops in the locker have your survivor friend lock them in. now they cannot escape unless you break the lock off.
Calm down Satan
You can’t lock it with someone inside can you?
id say probably not but idk, ive never tested it.
Pull them out, eat DS, actually tunnel them now that they used up DS.
"Just eat the five second stun and let them run to an easy loop before tunneling them"
As an m1 killer you really can't eat ds without losing the game, anyone you were chasing after that point is long gone.
If they body block just hit them and continue going after the person you were chasing…? Why are you standing around for 9 seconds refusing to tap them? As soon as you do they’ll leave
im not denying that that's the ideal play in this situation, i'm saying the devs should probably remove collision on unhooked survivors so they can't use a defensive anti-toxicity mechanic offensively
I keep trying to say this exact thing but nobody listens. Listen to this guy.
I love having my time wasted for absolutely 0 cost of the survivor with an extra safety net to double guarantee they're impossible to punish!
I mean you could eat the ds, it's not that strong. Or you can just leave, that survivor will likely waste more time trying to bait you into pulling them from a locker
The recently unhooked survivor standing between me and the unhooker because they know they have ds:
you will notice the perk because survivors will body block with and it cause they want to be noticed and have value from the perk. it will by manageable and most of times the survivor doing this can be ignored your right but there some situations where they can fully block you or jump in a locker in your face. overall its change that needed to happen tunneling was to prolific but this will affect killers who never choose to tunnel too. I remember DS when it 5 seconds survivors want the perk to be used when they aren't tunneled too, lockers will be the best way to bait this with fake jump outs so killer grabs ect when they meant to swing there's lots of way to do this.
Reminder: this is a nothing burger response. Having this perk be so good, at 5 seconds, means that if anyone wants to do well, they will have to chuck out a 5 pound fee. Ass, I hate that. The problem with this rework is that it is a lazy one that doesn't focus or fix on the actual issue, killers that can ignore the distance gained from ds. A good nurse can still just blink and down you just as fast as 3 second stun. The 3 sec stun was good vs m1 killers, so make the ds disable powers, so that all killers are effected equally, then the perk can be balanced accordingly. I genuinely wouldn't mind if the stun was longer than 3 seconds if ds temporarily disabled powers, because then bhvr can change the stun value easily if it's too much or not. I just really wanted to see this change, and it's annoying seeing everyone settle for more unfairness in perks
This. This is the issue. The perk needed a rework, THIS is just lazy and still doesn't solve the issue. That's the problem.
the perk is meant to help you get away, not as a guarantee to get away. if you’re being tunneled and know you’re going down soon, the smart play would be to get as close to a loop as possible in order for DS to get its full potential. If DS doesn’t prolong your chase when used by a pallet or a window loop then it’s a skill issue on the survivor’s part,
I mean, I gotta say have you played killer enough to experience just how often survivors right off hook will run to body block for their homies. That’s when it’s gonna suck when I don’t have a way around them and then have to be like “wel guess you can enjoy the floor and your homies will pick you up and it’s not worth me doing it. I think that it’s not the right change but it’s better than nothing for now
And then the slugged survivor brinks ub so there is no way around it 🤪
The perk was weak. For a one-time use with a very short window to use it, it gave very little in the sense of anti tunnel. The buff is very, very justified. As for body blocking off hook, for the most part I don't see that happen all too often. And there are scenarios where it's an ideal play. Say, you have one gen left that's at 50% progress or so and someone is working on it. One of you is dead, one is on hook, and one is dead on hook. Let's say the one dead on hook is getting the save, and the one off hook only has *one* hook. It's ideal to get the killer to tunnel the person off hook rather than maybe lose another survivor before the last generator done. 2 people with one injured when the last gen pops is not ideal at all. It could easily become a 4k
Right but then if you wanna make the sacrifice play of body block with the endurance you also shouldn’t get to get out of getting hooked again and killed. That’s a sacrifice play. Ya still gonna die to the nurse or the blight but I’m over here on a dredge and wraith getting punished for someone making a sacrifice play. Also, just buff some of the generic perks! Why is it Laurie where she costs 5 bucks and the rest of her perks suck ass
Just because you don't see it (body-blocking off hook) often doesnt mean it's perfectly fine with DS in play. Hell it might as well go back to the unbreakable decisive days where its damned if you leave them slugged or damned if you pick them up and get DS'd and their unhooker gets to run away scot-free in both cases.
Dude, it's less than 10 seconds of endurance and 50 of slug. It really is so easy to avoid.
slugging doesn’t actually take time or contribute to winning unless you slug everyone. Don’t act like they not running unbreakable or off the record to make it longer.
Slugging a survivor and staying in chase is worth more pressure than taking the survivor and hooking them again With the survivor back on hook (unless its death hook) you have 1 survivor on hook, and one preparing to get the save, which is 2 survivors off the gens If i slug the survivor and keep chasing the unhooker now I've got 3 survivors off gens, 1 in chase, 1 on the floor, and another coming to get the one off the floor, it might not be a very long time, but its still more pressure than just letting said unhooker go and re hooking the person who decided to body block
OTR turns that 10 into 90
80* Basekit BT doesn't add time to OTR.
People mostly used d strike as god mode like off the record
It’s not that simple all the time. There are times where the recently unhooked survivor will get in your way when you are clearly chasing someone else. Other times, you can’t find anybody except for the recently unhooked survivor and you either tunnel them or you walk around looking for someone else and potentially waste a bunch of time for nothing. I’m not super worried about the changes myself, but it’s very obviously going to affect most killers, regardless of them intentionally tunneling or not.
Kid named Unhooked Survivor Running In Front of the Killer Knowing They Can't Do Anything (the killer was tunnelling)
Man this community just thrives on instigation
I like how people are acting like you can't act aggressively with OTR/DS/DH/etc RIGHT NOW outside the PTB. 2 second longer stun only slightly makes the play style stronger, but doesn't make it broken.
it makes it stronger, which makes it more common, which is frustrating as fuck for people who don't want to tunnel
It's not as strong as it could be. Look at old DS that essentially gave immunity. A 2 second longer stun won't make that play style as strong as say, literally playing regularly. As killer, you can ignore the guy with the build and continue going for their buddy, which is 2 people not on gens. Or if he annoys you enough, just slug em and continue chasing the unhooker. I'm not saying it WON'T be frustrating, I'm just saying it'll be just another thing solo q will somehow fuck up and only work in top tier 4 mans, which is rare enough.
"It's not as strong as it could be" is a weak defence and you know it. Whenever a perk gets buffed it usually sees a lot of use immediately afterwards. When 4 survivors are running this every game because either "yay I got my old ds back, now I can bully weak killers" or "yay we got a buff" it's going to get obnoxious real quick.
People are really upset that they can’t tunnel so hard anymore. Yes, some players will use it more aggressively, but I would rather have survivors using a perk aggressively for 60 seconds as opposed to the majority of killers in the game tunneling someone out at 5 gens.
Nah people just don’t like that a majority of good survivors will use it aggressively. Yea lower ranks will definitely get value from it being anti tunnel but you’re naive if you really think it’s just “some players” using it aggressively. Just like body blocking off the hook is a constant thing
After all, experienced players have seen this film before and believe me, it was bad and it partly led to survivors having the same build all the time.
Bro people can still tunnel hard lol DS is going to make that take longer but do you really think killers aren’t still going to want that surv off the board? *Especially* once they know you don’t have it anymore?
You really gonna pretend absolutely no one uses DS offensively? I literally had a game yesterday where I downed someone, noticed someone with a flashlight was nearby so chased them, hit them then they jumped in a locker and when I grabbed them they ds'd me. Guess I was tunneling them?
I just hate that it's another change that punishes weaker killers far more than stronger ones. Survivors already aggressively use DS (when they actually have it) because they know they can waste the killers time mid-chase.. and then complain if they get slugged. So either you hit the guy with endurance because they've body blocked in a way where you can't get around them (so now you may as well hit them again because they are closest and more valuable than the survivor who is even further away), or you wait out the 10 seconds to try and punish the body blocking, go to pick up and get DS'd, or you wait out the 10 seconds, slug and then either deal with toxicity or buckle up ftp. Or hell, just a normal ass pickup because you're on the other side of the map chasing someone else (who now has a lot of distance). Nurse isn't going to care much. Blight wont care much. Neither will the a tier killers. But your freddies, pigs, trappers, doctors and such are going to just get bullied (even more than they already are).
Little bro seriously thinks that survivors never use their "antitunnel" perks aggressively and seriously says that killers who tunnel have no skill when it is the only correct play most of the time...
Meanwhile I’ve been running it with no mither this whole time so I’m glad it got a nice animation update and buff 😎
This sort of build will likely also cause issues. Imagine an undownable, unhookable Survivor. The only reason it's not actually an issue with No Mither is because you have to be broken all round if you do this.
So long as it still deactivates when a survivor touches a gen/heals. Having a survivor do a gen in your face because they know you can't do shit about it was obnoxious.
People said the exact same thing in 2021. Remind everyone how an average match went back then, will ya? Cause I still remember it like it was yesterday.
Boy those rank 1 lobbies were fun. DS, Deadhard, Unbreakable, Adrenaline - Medi with Syptic DS, Deadhard, Unbreakable, Adrenaline - Medi with Syptic DS, Deadhard, Unbreakable, Adrenaline - Purple Beamer DS, Deadhard, Unbreakable, Adrenaline - Tool box with BNP
The way I saw it, everyone ran DH, DS, Adren and the 4th perk was a style choice. Resi, Deli, UB, Spine Chill, Iron Will, BT
My brain repressed old BT.
Yeah but sometimes it's kinda hard to find other people other than the one you just unhooked because everyone is playing stealthy and they are healthy. Not much counterplay unless you have information perks or playing an information killer, which not everyone does.
Too bad surv players on this subreddit wont agree with you and still will say you’re a sweaty tryhard tunneler.
Yeah. But like, it's difficult to play as killer when you can't find anyone and the only person you do find just got unhooked. You don't want to tunnel but you kind of have to
Tunneling will help you win the game if done right and will cost you the game if done wrong. Personally, if I want to win I could care less about whether people want me to tunnel or not. The salt in the end game chat is an added bonus lol i always try to do whatever makes the most sense in a given situation as most killers do so if I see an injured surv who just got unhooked and the teammate didnt take aggro youre damn right im going to tunnel. Ive had teams straight up throw the entire game trying to save one person from being tunneled. Play how you want and dont let the shaming influence your decision making. Survivors have already proven time and time again (myself included) that they will exploit whatever gets them a win. Remember when you could phase into a locker using a flashlight a while back? Guess what? Plenty of teams were abusing this because they could and killers had no power to stop it and plenty of folks were saying “Yea that’s what ya’ll get for tunneling and camping” lol the hypocrisy is insane. Get your W bro. If they play dirty do that shit right back regardless of which role youre playing.
Within 60 seconds the unhooked survivor can get fully healed by another survivor and bait you into tunneling them to get value out of it, appearing as if they already lost it. That's the only thing I'm worried about, this already happens in matches and now survivors will be even more incentivized to do this. The amount of time you can gain by wasting the killer's time with DS is severe enough that many decent killers lost matches to it. Other than that, the buff is justified. 3 seconds of stun was not good enough.
Oh the survivor blindness of the fact that DS is used offensively much more often than it is used defensively. You must be new.
False, it was 60 seconds before and there would be plenty of times you would find that survivor again and get hit with it. Yes largely you’ll avoid it if you don’t tunnel but let’s not act like it’s impossible to get hit with it other than that. Or even having survivors using it offensively
I mean, that's a whole 60 seconds of them doing nothing to progress the game if they're actively trying to get value off of DS so that's fine by me.
So the survivor literally didn't progress the game for a full minute. Cool. If you're getting hit by it where you let them go, come across them, and then try to hook them, wait 10 or so seconds to pick them up. Literally so easy. Getting a minute of protection where you can't get hooked TWICE in one minute if you hit the skill check and don't progress the game is such a nothing perk. I haven't been hit by DS in over a year.
Survivors using it offensively is pretty weak and for 60 seconds won’t affect the game as much as a 5 second stun to tunnelers will
I think this post fundamentally misunderstands the difference in power and how a killer must approach swf in particular as once you are above a certain skill threshold perks like this become fundamentally overpowered with high level swf. The greater and only issue with perks like this is there should either be swf specific limits or we need to address the overall difference in power between swf and solo groups
https://preview.redd.it/6xit4gmom8rc1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=9802243a905baca4169957c9f342758746f6880b
"yep mean bad Killer players, better downvote then for pointing this out!"
I think too many people are having flashbacks to when DS was just free wasted time against the killer for the survivor. I think people are missing a few key facts: 1. Conspicuous actions didn't exist prior to this. 2. Off The Record is honestly better at being a "post-unhook bully perk" now than DS (another balance issue entirely but I digress.) 3. Much like before, you can just slug the survivor if you think they have DS. Or not tunnel.
Endgame DS was the most awful thing to exist and I hope it never comes back. Make DS last ten seconds for all I care, just don't make it work at Endgame.
Yeah no endgame no conspicuous actions.
1. Bodyblocking the killer isn't a conspicuous action. 2. Good news you can use OTR and DS together! As well as DH, and Unbreakable. The new meta awaits! 3. Survivors would never run unbreakable when they know they're going to play aggressive after unhooks! Sure hope I never have a situation where I have to down a survivor blocking a doorway after unhook. Guess I'll just continue to stare down the barrel of learning nurse instead of playing the 25+ killers who get dumpstered by a 5 second stun. Save the Best was nerfed, Sloppy was nerfed, now we have 5 second DS stun to really beat it in your head that playing over 2/3 the killer roster is going to be overly frustrating. I'm thrilled.
It’s easy to tell when someone is using OTR and/or DS because they will be unnecessarily aggressive or in DS’s case, jump stupidly into lockers. Just wait it out or leave them, period. If you’re determined to chase or tunnel a survivor for more than the appropriate amount of time, it’s kind of the killers fault if they pull that shit off.
I literally don't care about what any killer main has to say about this change. Tunneling and Proxy Camping has been on the GREATEST rise for a long time. We didn't need to buff DS again if that wasn't an issue happening...
I don’t tunnel off hook, I always go for the unhooker if I’m nearby and I’m usually not, I never tunnel off hook, but I will down someone off hook if I down the ubhooker and the person who was on hook has a flashlight
Okay I think we may be overthinking it a bit much
If I'm being honest, I don't think this change is gonna do much. We already have OTR which does a lot more and last longer and any more anti tunnels on the same build is gonna lead to survivors being unnecessarily under resourced. Maybe id be more interested if the other anti-tunnels were nerfed, but as it stands old DS coming back ain't gonna cause waves
People who only play one side are exposing themselves hardcore after this patch
So we're just gonna pretend like a concerning amount of survivors even in solo queue love to use DS aggressively to find killers half way across the map with OTF to bodyblock or force them to eat it. while you're in a chase with a completely different person. Then call you a slur in chat or DM if you do fall for it? And we're not even gonna being up the buckle up and Ftp nonsense used to prolong chases and bully M1 killers. I would know cause I use it too, not the calling people slur part, the strong arming the killer to eat your otr or ds. B
I’m coming to realize more and more every day the Average dbd player isn’t high Mmr. Strong teams don’t use it to stop tunneling it they use it to force downs. They will go for a bad save on a good gen that you’re regressing to stop the regression from being super hard, the off hook survivor will force you to chase them body blocking doors windows throwing pallets while you’re chasing the unhooked you lose so much time that it is now trolling go ignore them. You down them, they pray you pick you get decisive striked. Like this isn’t a rare or new concept it’s been getting abused for a long time but it doesn’t matter i use to main pyramid head but got bored of him guess we back ❤️😮💨
One thing that always bother me about this "play normal" talk is if a survivor put them selves in position to be tunneled am I just supposed to let them go ? Sometimes it's a skill issue with the survivors.
the only thing that annoys me with DS is how certain maps can drastically improve the perk. I play to 12 hook and it’s annoying for them to block a hallway in a map like meat plant near the freezer with OTR/DS to take me out of a chase
i know the proper play is to slug but that’s hella boring imo for all parties
5 second stun is still so much better than when you were able to sit on a gen as a "fuck you" or going down during endgame knowing you had ds to fall back on
DS should deactivate if you are fully healed and you can’t change my mind
The only thing I think they should change is that ds can only work if they pick you up off the ground so that way body blocking survivors can’t just hop in a locker and force them to grab you instead of slugging them.
Ah yes, ye olde "if you don't like my anti-*this* perk, you *must* be a *this*-er!" My first time encountering it was with the Borrowed Time change which made borrowed time activate on every unhook. I took issue with the fact that there was now no reason to **not** run the perk, as it went from anti-camping to anti-everything. I said it should just be base-kit, at that point. Keep in mind that this was before base-kit BT was a thing. Somehow or another, people decided that argument meant I was *pro-camping*! And it's like... I don't have to be pro-camping to have a problem with the anti-camping perk. As such, I don't have to be pro-tunneling to have a problem with the supposed "anti-tunneling" perk. Let me say the quiet part out loud; nobody needs to do "mental gymnastics" to justify tunneling because tunneling doesn't need to be justified. While not fun for the tunneled, the results speak for themselves. Even if they didn't... it's a game and people can do what they want. Yes, you can complain about it, but that doesn't necessarily mean every complaint is valid. Seeing you accuse others of "mental gymnastics" just to immediately imply that tunneling killers aren't basing their play-style on pressure is absurdly contradictory and self-defeating.
Sure, tunneling is an effective strategy. But if that’s the case, survivors should have a way to try and counter it. Splitting gens is an effective strategy too, hence why perks like DMS attempt to punish it. The game should be about risk/reward, not handouts so one side doesn’t have to work for their win condition.
Man I got downvoted and called a tunneler for this same take. People are wildin' if they think this perk won't be abused HARD.
You do realize that sometimes you will, completely naturally, run into a survivor who was unhooked in the last 60 seconds? And that survivors will sometimes intentionally fake being caught out of place in order to use DS, even at its currently weaker 3s duration? 60 seconds is a pretty long time in DBD regardless.
i dont have a massive issue with the this change but this post screams of someone who has no idea how its actually used in real games, its never as simple as dont tunnel
You’re forgetting the fact that survivors can run literally anything else along with ds. Mainly unbreakable. You either wait out the Ds and let them pick themselves up and have 40 seconds of no real pressure or you pick them up, suck up the ds and waste even more time
I’d rather DS be used aggressively against me than forcing someone out in 5 minutes of a game they waited 10 minutes to load in for.
This is fine and dandy until you see yourself going about your business spreading hooks and then some asshole fresh off the hook comes to body block for the survivor that you're currently chasing. Killers already have many things to keep in mind, and so it's not uncommon to forget about who has been hooked in the last 60 seconds. Being punished for 5 seconds (plus hit cooldowns and whatnot) when you weren't even trying to tunnel is not cool. Yes, tunneling is running rampant and it needs to be addressed. But let's not pretend that survivors don't weaponize their so-called anti-tunneling perks.
Just last night I got DS'd three times in one game. The players used it aggressively and took the chase on purpose, not because I intended or went out of my way to tunnel, but because they wanted to use the perk. Players can and will use DS aggressively if they want to.
You decided to pick up survivor knowing damn well DS exists and timer is still up if it is in play. If they're literally following you even while you're chasing someone else, that's just free pressure, and if they fuck up and go down, slug them, that's even more pressure. You did this to yourself.
Downvoted for speaking the truth, lol. People always blame the game when there are ways to play around tactics.
Ikr? Like, there is not a single way they can "force" DS on you: Bodyblock? Hit them and you're free to go. Downed? Don't pick up. Unbreakable? Still free pressure+they can't use it in critical snowball later. Someone picks them up instead? Again, free pressure, 2not doing gens. Locker? Leave them, don't stand there like UK guardsman. Slow vault out/into locker, window or pallet to bait grab? Swing hit, don't click it, and you'll down them instead of grab. What to do with downed, see point 1. Also horrid take i saw "what if they get healed and bait you into chase making you think they self healed and lost DS". So even if, let's say it was 12s heal from teammate (50% from unhook filled with Jill perk and self heal with medkit is realistic time for self heal to be believable), then killer has to be on your ass right after, somehow not notice unhooker healing you to figure out it wasn't self heal, chase full health survivor for less than a minute (and if surv forces quick down, that's inefficient for time wasted in heal), and then insta pickups you while DS is on last seconds. So many stars to align for a *chance* to bait DS. It's like people seriously don't wanna learn macro, crutching on cheese strats to compensate, and now have to deal with consequences. The only way DS buff can hurt players is if they are genuine tunneler and not in a smart way with doing it in endgame or focusing only 2 survivors for quick kill, but literal clone of "I LOVE TUNNELING" nemesis meme and relentlessly focusing out first hook till death no matter what, won't even bother if protectors go down for them. Honestly can't wait to see pubs running ds/otr/dh and what else, that just means I can play without much tunnel as usual and they have perks that do almost nothing.
>Locker? Leave them, don't stand there like UK guardsman. Hell, Trapper can just leave a present and move on
Completely agree a massive part of the community lacks any macro knowledge.
People use identical cosmetics. Killers don't have a hook counter and it's easy to forget who you have hooked and not when you're juggling a bunch of stuff. Even very good killer players like otz lose track of who they have and have not hooked. It's entirely possible to get hit by DS without intentionally targeting someone. In fact I'd say it used to happen pretty often. I know I don't always keep track of who I hooked and when.
People can absolutely use it offensively just like off the record. Don't pretend like this is how it is
All these "people will bodyblock with it!" comments, like folks can't already do that with OTR but don't
Strats haven't changed, so I don't get the controversy. It's just more punishing for not reading the game
Time to bring out the slug builds again, I can't stand the Survivors that aggressively bodyblock because they run ds unbreakable
As if games can't end in five minutes.
Knight stocks going up. Just plop a guard down before picking someone up
sorry for playing the game the way I want to?
Smartest survivor main
That's not the issue. The issue is if a baby trapper tries to tunnel, he will get punished, which is okay. But if a Blight wants to tunnel, well GG, he can catch up to you pretty fast again.
The fact you can still have Ds after ive hooked another surv after you is bizarre
This is a good point and actually a healthy change to DS would be "deactivated if another survivor is hooked"
or if they bodyblock with BT and force you to tunnel, you have to eat 5 seconds stun
I think we will end up with a monkey pawn situation with the DS buff honestly (it sounds perfect on paper, but it's hard to day without the PTB). Have a legitimate counter to tunneling but have an aggressive and frustrating meta to go against, OR, have an useless perk that at least no one can abuse. In my opinion have DS deactivate when fully healed and when entering a locker. It would still be a good anti-tunneling perk, but it won't be played on a overly aggressive way I believe.
It needed changed back to 5 seconds. It’s definitely a good change.
Tunneling is not inherently toxic tunneling is not inherently toxic tunneling is not inherently toxic Not complaining about DS at all, or it’s buff. But tunneling is not inherently toxic. Sometimes it’s the most efficient way to play at a given moment. Most killers that tunnel aren’t doing it solely to ruin your game. They’re just playing to win, and at that moment, tunneling is the most effective path toward winning.
The people saying just don’t tunnel are either new to the game and don’t remember when DS used to be 5 seconds or the same survivor mains running OTR and unbreakable with DS in the “old” days. it was so annoying when you just had to slug the bodyblocker since that was the only option and then you were still punished for slugging because oh yea they have unbreakable all the while that “free” pressure you have goes away in 24 seconds because of unbreakable granted this will be a one time thing and goes away in endgame this will still be abused hardcore, and you will see 4man swfs running the same meta we saw a couple of years ago
People r really acting like they're just upset bodyblocking or whatever is going to become a problem when for the majority of us average players in solo queue... People don't do that for you off hook! Maybe rarely in endgame, maybe on that off occasion your solo queue teammates actually try to help you when you're being tunneled, but most of the time I do not see people using ds offensively but as a (usually futile) attempt to prolong being tunneled out. You get the rare occasional person who uses their endurance or whatever to body block but honestly it's usually an accident because of i-frames and timing / positioning during unhook. Again, I'm speaking for my level of play, which I consider average.
I had matches weaponizing DS at the beginning of the week. It’ll be worse now. That’s all I care about. It’ll be seen more because survivors will abuse it the same way they abuse BT. The perk isn’t the problem, the players are.