If I am reading the rules correctly it allows someone with the Crossbow Expert feat to use the extra arms to reload and also have a shield. It also allows Soul Knife Rogue to make it's bonus action attack and still have a shield equipped. Again IF I am reading all of these rules correctly.
Looks like it. As long as the shield is in one of the primary arms there's nothing stopping the use of secondary arms for light weapon/soulknife attacks or somatic spellcasting.
~~Don't think Xbow expert has anything to do with it though. Hand crossbows are always light, and loading property does not necessitate free hands, it's just a limit on how many times you can fire it in a turn.~~
~~You can run two hand crossbows in the secondary arms and still use two-weapon fighting. Technically you should even be able to use extra attack and two-weapon fighting in tandem for 3 attacks/turn without Xbow expert and still hold a shield if you have another hand crossbow in one of the primary arms.~~
EDIT: as u/kdrakari pointed out, Two-Weapon fighting requires melee weapons, and the ammunition property requires a free hand. Extra attack should still work with two hand crossbows and a free hand, letting you use a shield while making ranged attacks. Crossbow expert allows for a bonus attack with a hand crossbow if you make a melee attack with a one handed weapon.
Two problems, the biggest one is that two-weapon fighting only works for light melee weapons rather than all light weapons. Crossbow Expert is needed for the Bonus Action attack. The other one is that while "loading" doesn't require a free hand "ammunition" does.
Crossbow Expert + Extra attack allows 3 Hand Crossbow attacks per turn using a single hand crossbow and a free hand, leaving the two primary hands free for other things. Without Crossbow Expert you can only manage two attacks per turn, which takes two crossbows and three hands.
TIL, thanks for educating me!
Does that make the light property on hand crossbow effectively useless? I'm guessing light should still apply when using it as an improvised weapon, even though I'd probably rather just shoot into melee since it lacks finesse (if weapon properties even apply while using them as improvised weapons).
The thri-keen's arms requiring a light weapon: this is the first time the hand crossbow having the light property has mattered.
Seems the best use is to be able to sword+board and xbe at the same time. That way if you primarily do ranged but get a held magic item or a really good melee weapon you can still rock it.
The way I read it, crossbow expert would allow a Thri-kreen to triple-wiled hand crossbows, and having extra attack would allow one to fire all three each turn (Or two and a shield) remember, they have \_two\_ extra arms.
> So you could use the secondary arms for somatic components?
Yes
> What's the penalty for using a shield without proficiency?
"If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can't cast spells"
The same way. I think the generic explanation was that the armour interferes with the flow of energy and part of proficiency is knowing how to cast around that.
The section on armor proficiency mentions both suits of armor and shields, and makes no mechanical distinction about either as far as the penalties go, so the penalties would apply to either.
"Armor Proficiency: Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor’s use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can’t cast spells."
Also note that shields ARE armor, they're just a distinct category like heavy/medium/light, thus why they're on the "armor" table.
Well technically it IS functional. A little bit. Find yourself a sunblade and you may realize that despite technically being a longsword it has the Light property. That means the above is absolutely possible if the DM doesn't mind bending the dual wielding rules for flavortext.
A more powerful use of the four arms is the very reason the Loxodon trunk has so much more specific stipulations: You can cast spells with secondary arms. You don't need War Caster therefore to wield weapons or a shield while spellcasting.
> Find yourself a sunblade and you may realize that despite technically being a longsword it has the Light property
The Sun Blade does not have the Light property. It only has the Finesse and Versatile properties. While it is a longsword, if you are proficient with shortswords you are proficient with the Sun Blade, but it still doesn't grant it the ~~rank of~~ Light property.
But hey, nothing prevents you from making an actual shortsword Sun Blade. It isn't a unique weapon after all. It would only get downgraded to a d6 damage die, instead of d8/d10 with Versatile.
You can hold a weapon in your main hand, a shield in your other hand, a light weapon in your secondary hand and still have a free arm for making cool signs in spell language!
>Especially with the Dual Wielder feat.
Not that much :
>You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:
>
> * You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
>
> * You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one handed melee weapons you are wielding aren’t light.
>
> * You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.
A strict reading of this imply you need to wield four melee weapons to get the +1 AC benefit...
Spellcasting is an obvious application, any cleric would kill for extra 2 arms.
But what about off hand attack? I have to look up the wording on there.
Ok, I did. It works. I think. Not an English major tho.
"Whenever you use the Attack action you can make an additional attack with your off-hand weapon as a bonus action."
It assumes you have a single off-hand as RAI, obviously, but, if we stick to the wording, and you have several off-hands, you in fact can attack with them.
The wording says you can make an attack (singular) with your off-hand (singular). Meaning you can make one additional attack per bonus action, which you have one of.
Yes since the fighter class gives you extra attacks. Not much benefit over just 2 arms unless you use them for things like reloading or casting. one BA is still one offhand attack
I think if we stick to the wording you can, and doesn't use RAI.
I was curious about that, so looked up the wording.
" Whenever you use the Attack action you can make an additional attack with your off-hand weapon as a bonus action. "
Wouldn‘t having only one bonus action mean you can only make one additional attack? It doesn‘t state you can make an attack with each of your off-hand weapons
I think the issue is the wording was made assuming players would only have 2 arms to work with, we have a race now with 4 arms to work with. I have 3 off-hands ergo I should have 3 off-hand attacks, end of discussion.
If your looking for effective, a great sword in your main hands with two short swords in your extras. A level 5 martial gets to attack with all the weapons using action and bonus action.
Yeah you would only be able to do,
A: main attack(s)
BA: off hand attack
Good combo would be,
Big arm 1: longsword
Big arm 2: shield
Smol arm 1: hand crossbow
Smol arm 2: empty Or Another hand crossbow
I did an insectoid ranger in 4e who could switch between bow and dual welding as a free action (or minor? I forget) because of the smaller arms passing weapons to the upper ones.
I'm wondering how people are running drawing weapons, cause from what I know you can draw only one weapon per turn without the dual wielder feat. That means that if you wanna go full Grevious you would have to wait a whopping 4 turns, which is... Yeah, it's not great.
You can take actions to interact with an object (ie draw a weapon). Also, as long as you're not too bad at predicting encounters, you should have your weapons drawn at the beginning of the fight.
Honestly seems like too much of a bother. That is exactly why I just did away with most limits on free actions in the games I run. Just... Draw everything, change weapons, open playstyles, if it's abused in anyway people get smited and it's cool.
Definitely an Anvilwrought Thri-Kreen with 4 Sun Blades (and a special rule that lets him attune to 4 magic items, and also lets him attune to more than 1 of the same magic item).
Probably a Battlemaster Fighter with the Soldier Background.
Fun fact: a Sun Blade is a ~~light melee weapon~~ that you are proficient in while you are attuned, and Artificers can attune to up to Four magic items.
Edit: apparently the generic sunblade is not light...hmmmm
Edit 2: ok, it *is* a *finesse* weapon but it is *not* a *light weapon* even though it's *made of light*...
I think it does, mechanically a cleric that only uses spells with +4 AC could be pretty broken. And realisticly the way shields are designed the second shield would probably get more in the way than anything.
Bummer. Wasn't sure.
Kinda feels like they should. Like, you've now got 2 items to block with. For the normal 2 armed races you're giving up your ability to attack for more defense.
Since your main arms can hold shields, you can have 2 shields. At level 1 as a fighter, you can have an ac of 20 and still attack. Taking the defense fighting style can give you 22. All at first level. Pretty sure someone’s said this before but I figured I’d point it out.
So a lightsaber would be a 1d10 weapon or maybe even **1d20** if you really wanna make it op
And also have the light and versatile traits
Light because jar'kai (yes thats the name of the fighting style that wields both lightsabers in the star wars universe) is basically the light dual wield property of dnd
Versatile because a lot of characters wield it either with one hand or 2
You could even go to a star wars game and see it for yourself
In battlefront 2 for example
Darth vader only has 3 attacks that has him hold his saber with both hands while the rest of his moveset has him only use one hand
Meanwhile luke skywalker only holds his lightsaber with one hand when he does a force push or a force pulse (basically a shockwave around him) which obviously needs a free hand while he spends almost the entire time with both his hands
So, with a fear for dual-wielding you can have 2 scimitars and a shield. Which gives you +3AC. And with a proper fighting style you get +4. So a thri-kreen fighter can have 22 AC by level 4. Interesting.
I see nothing wrong with letting thri-kreen wield a versatile weapon as a 2-hander with a strong arm and a weak arm, since it doesn’t require 2 full hands to wield the weapon, but it is getting f added force from an extra hand.
If I am reading the rules correctly it allows someone with the Crossbow Expert feat to use the extra arms to reload and also have a shield. It also allows Soul Knife Rogue to make it's bonus action attack and still have a shield equipped. Again IF I am reading all of these rules correctly.
Soul knife actually does not count as a light weapon. It honestly should, but it technically doesn’t count
I missed that on my readthrough. I saw simple, melee, thrown, finesse and just assumed light was in there.
Yeah, it’s so similar to daggers in every other way that the exclusion is really peculiar
It weighs nothing so it should be
if it ways nothing, it can't be light.
It's lighter than light.
Since you can make the attack without needing Dual Wielder feat, the Light property should **definitely** be part of it, yeah.
It's remarkably difficult to combine soul knife with a lot of things
Looks like it. As long as the shield is in one of the primary arms there's nothing stopping the use of secondary arms for light weapon/soulknife attacks or somatic spellcasting. ~~Don't think Xbow expert has anything to do with it though. Hand crossbows are always light, and loading property does not necessitate free hands, it's just a limit on how many times you can fire it in a turn.~~ ~~You can run two hand crossbows in the secondary arms and still use two-weapon fighting. Technically you should even be able to use extra attack and two-weapon fighting in tandem for 3 attacks/turn without Xbow expert and still hold a shield if you have another hand crossbow in one of the primary arms.~~ EDIT: as u/kdrakari pointed out, Two-Weapon fighting requires melee weapons, and the ammunition property requires a free hand. Extra attack should still work with two hand crossbows and a free hand, letting you use a shield while making ranged attacks. Crossbow expert allows for a bonus attack with a hand crossbow if you make a melee attack with a one handed weapon.
Two problems, the biggest one is that two-weapon fighting only works for light melee weapons rather than all light weapons. Crossbow Expert is needed for the Bonus Action attack. The other one is that while "loading" doesn't require a free hand "ammunition" does. Crossbow Expert + Extra attack allows 3 Hand Crossbow attacks per turn using a single hand crossbow and a free hand, leaving the two primary hands free for other things. Without Crossbow Expert you can only manage two attacks per turn, which takes two crossbows and three hands.
TIL, thanks for educating me! Does that make the light property on hand crossbow effectively useless? I'm guessing light should still apply when using it as an improvised weapon, even though I'd probably rather just shoot into melee since it lacks finesse (if weapon properties even apply while using them as improvised weapons).
>Does that make the light property on hand crossbow effectively useless? You need the light property to wield them in your non-primary hands.
The ammunition trait is what requires the free hand.
Des and troy
The thri-keen's arms requiring a light weapon: this is the first time the hand crossbow having the light property has mattered. Seems the best use is to be able to sword+board and xbe at the same time. That way if you primarily do ranged but get a held magic item or a really good melee weapon you can still rock it.
The way I read it, crossbow expert would allow a Thri-kreen to triple-wiled hand crossbows, and having extra attack would allow one to fire all three each turn (Or two and a shield) remember, they have \_two\_ extra arms.
Why triple wield them if you can just have one and still shoot three times with crossbow expert?
You can have two hand crossbows, reload them and still have a shield...
So you could use the secondary arms for somatic components? What's the penalty for using a shield without proficiency?
> So you could use the secondary arms for somatic components? Yes > What's the penalty for using a shield without proficiency? "If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can't cast spells"
How does wearing armor affect spells that’s are only verbal
The same way. I think the generic explanation was that the armour interferes with the flow of energy and part of proficiency is knowing how to cast around that.
Out of breath
Yes but shields work differently as they aren’t armor, you just get nothing if you aren’t proficient in shields
The section on armor proficiency mentions both suits of armor and shields, and makes no mechanical distinction about either as far as the penalties go, so the penalties would apply to either. "Armor Proficiency: Anyone can put on a suit of armor or strap a shield to an arm. Only those proficient in the armor’s use know how to wear it effectively, however. Your class gives you proficiency with certain types of armor. If you wear armor that you lack proficiency with, you have disadvantage on any ability check, saving throw, or attack roll that involves Strength or Dexterity, and you can’t cast spells." Also note that shields ARE armor, they're just a distinct category like heavy/medium/light, thus why they're on the "armor" table.
Well technically it IS functional. A little bit. Find yourself a sunblade and you may realize that despite technically being a longsword it has the Light property. That means the above is absolutely possible if the DM doesn't mind bending the dual wielding rules for flavortext. A more powerful use of the four arms is the very reason the Loxodon trunk has so much more specific stipulations: You can cast spells with secondary arms. You don't need War Caster therefore to wield weapons or a shield while spellcasting.
> Find yourself a sunblade and you may realize that despite technically being a longsword it has the Light property The Sun Blade does not have the Light property. It only has the Finesse and Versatile properties. While it is a longsword, if you are proficient with shortswords you are proficient with the Sun Blade, but it still doesn't grant it the ~~rank of~~ Light property.
Could have sworn it did. I'll have to re-view it.
But hey, nothing prevents you from making an actual shortsword Sun Blade. It isn't a unique weapon after all. It would only get downgraded to a d6 damage die, instead of d8/d10 with Versatile.
If the DM's on board with the meme, you'll end up with 4 of the things, so a downgrade to a d6 seems like a decent trade-off to me!
You can hold a weapon in your main hand, a shield in your other hand, a light weapon in your secondary hand and still have a free arm for making cool signs in spell language!
An absolute nightmare. Especially with the Dual Wielder feat.
>Especially with the Dual Wielder feat. Not that much : >You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits: > > * You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand. > > * You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one handed melee weapons you are wielding aren’t light. > > * You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one. A strict reading of this imply you need to wield four melee weapons to get the +1 AC benefit...
Not quite. Above where you read "each hand" it explicitly says "fighting with TWO weapons."
>You master fighting with two weapons That part is just fluff. Every feat that have benefits divided in multiples points have such thing.
Possibly, but the feat is pretty explicitly designed for TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING. That ain't fluff.
The whole system was designed for two arms so we should expect at least some things to either be unclear or broken.
Spellcasting is an obvious application, any cleric would kill for extra 2 arms. But what about off hand attack? I have to look up the wording on there. Ok, I did. It works. I think. Not an English major tho. "Whenever you use the Attack action you can make an additional attack with your off-hand weapon as a bonus action." It assumes you have a single off-hand as RAI, obviously, but, if we stick to the wording, and you have several off-hands, you in fact can attack with them.
The wording says you can make an attack (singular) with your off-hand (singular). Meaning you can make one additional attack per bonus action, which you have one of.
Just curious, how does attacking with those arms in the same turn go? Can you actually get 4 attacks?
Yes since the fighter class gives you extra attacks. Not much benefit over just 2 arms unless you use them for things like reloading or casting. one BA is still one offhand attack
I think if we stick to the wording you can, and doesn't use RAI. I was curious about that, so looked up the wording. " Whenever you use the Attack action you can make an additional attack with your off-hand weapon as a bonus action. "
Wouldn‘t having only one bonus action mean you can only make one additional attack? It doesn‘t state you can make an attack with each of your off-hand weapons
I think the issue is the wording was made assuming players would only have 2 arms to work with, we have a race now with 4 arms to work with. I have 3 off-hands ergo I should have 3 off-hand attacks, end of discussion.
Depending on how you understand that "an".
Come on now, there's no wiggle room in that.
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Nah, you only get extra attacks from class features.
What is this? I need it.
[New UA](https://media.wizards.com/2021/dnd/downloads/UA2021_TravelersoftheMultiverse.pdf) has Thri-Kreen, which have 4 arms.
If your looking for effective, a great sword in your main hands with two short swords in your extras. A level 5 martial gets to attack with all the weapons using action and bonus action.
How do you attack with a second short sword?
Yeah you would only be able to do, A: main attack(s) BA: off hand attack Good combo would be, Big arm 1: longsword Big arm 2: shield Smol arm 1: hand crossbow Smol arm 2: empty Or Another hand crossbow
I did an insectoid ranger in 4e who could switch between bow and dual welding as a free action (or minor? I forget) because of the smaller arms passing weapons to the upper ones.
Does guns count as "Light"?
If they have the light property, yes. I don’t think any official firearms do though.
Well... Theere goes my plan to play a Kelermorph.
Make it a swashbuckler and whatever youre fighting is fucked
I'm wondering how people are running drawing weapons, cause from what I know you can draw only one weapon per turn without the dual wielder feat. That means that if you wanna go full Grevious you would have to wait a whopping 4 turns, which is... Yeah, it's not great.
You can take actions to interact with an object (ie draw a weapon). Also, as long as you're not too bad at predicting encounters, you should have your weapons drawn at the beginning of the fight.
Honestly seems like too much of a bother. That is exactly why I just did away with most limits on free actions in the games I run. Just... Draw everything, change weapons, open playstyles, if it's abused in anyway people get smited and it's cool.
>Is it funtional? Not really. If you can't find ways of abusing this, then you haven't looked enough.
Definitely an Anvilwrought Thri-Kreen with 4 Sun Blades (and a special rule that lets him attune to 4 magic items, and also lets him attune to more than 1 of the same magic item). Probably a Battlemaster Fighter with the Soldier Background.
Sun blades aren’t light though.
They should be. They're literally *just a hilt*. It's not RAW, but I don't see any reason not to allow it.
I’d make him a Conquest Paladin. Even if not directly attuned to the Force, he’s all about fear and crushing his foes
can someone please tell me where to find the new ua races? these seem pretty interesting
Google usually works. [This is the article though](https://media.wizards.com/2021/dnd/downloads/UA2021_TravelersoftheMultiverse.pdf)
Fun fact: a Sun Blade is a ~~light melee weapon~~ that you are proficient in while you are attuned, and Artificers can attune to up to Four magic items. Edit: apparently the generic sunblade is not light...hmmmm Edit 2: ok, it *is* a *finesse* weapon but it is *not* a *light weapon* even though it's *made of light*...
A sun blade doesn’t have the light property, and RAW you can’t attune to multiple copies of an item.
Awww I forgot that last one :( But maybe it was just Dawnbringer that was light...hmmm
Dawnbringer isn't Light either.
This would be great for a 'shieldmaster' grappler build. Shove enemy prone with your shield and you can still hit him and hold him down.
Double shield + shortsword or smthn. Stupid AC
Shields don’t stack.
Doesnt make much sense but meh
I think it does, mechanically a cleric that only uses spells with +4 AC could be pretty broken. And realisticly the way shields are designed the second shield would probably get more in the way than anything.
two shields and two rapiers, boom
Rapiers aren’t light and shields don’t stack.
So basically I'll be running around with two shields and two short swords? Sounds functional to me! 😂
So, wait, could you have two Shields in your primary arms, giving +4 to your ac, and then 2 light weapons to dual-wield with?
Shields don’t stack.
Bummer. Wasn't sure. Kinda feels like they should. Like, you've now got 2 items to block with. For the normal 2 armed races you're giving up your ability to attack for more defense.
Since your main arms can hold shields, you can have 2 shields. At level 1 as a fighter, you can have an ac of 20 and still attack. Taking the defense fighting style can give you 22. All at first level. Pretty sure someone’s said this before but I figured I’d point it out.
You can't benefit from two shield at the same time.
Oh, darn
I’d say it’s functional if you wanna go for a fighter rogue multi class to try and get four sneak attacks in a turn.
Sneak attack is explicitly limited to once per turn.
Rogues can only sneak attack once a turn.
What book is this from ?
No book (yet), it’s just [UA](https://media.wizards.com/2021/dnd/downloads/UA2021_TravelersoftheMultiverse.pdf) for the time being.
So a lightsaber would be a 1d10 weapon or maybe even **1d20** if you really wanna make it op And also have the light and versatile traits Light because jar'kai (yes thats the name of the fighting style that wields both lightsabers in the star wars universe) is basically the light dual wield property of dnd Versatile because a lot of characters wield it either with one hand or 2 You could even go to a star wars game and see it for yourself In battlefront 2 for example Darth vader only has 3 attacks that has him hold his saber with both hands while the rest of his moveset has him only use one hand Meanwhile luke skywalker only holds his lightsaber with one hand when he does a force push or a force pulse (basically a shockwave around him) which obviously needs a free hand while he spends almost the entire time with both his hands
Where is this information from?
The new UA.
So, with a fear for dual-wielding you can have 2 scimitars and a shield. Which gives you +3AC. And with a proper fighting style you get +4. So a thri-kreen fighter can have 22 AC by level 4. Interesting.
And people actually thought this race was the key to dual wielding greatswords. Hah
Let’s you have a shield and the 2nd attack for 2x light weapons
I see nothing wrong with letting thri-kreen wield a versatile weapon as a 2-hander with a strong arm and a weak arm, since it doesn’t require 2 full hands to wield the weapon, but it is getting f added force from an extra hand.
Undead skeleton feat?