This. The episode was fine, but they kept teasing this massive reveal that would answer all but one of our questions. They must not be aware of what our questions were.
Where is Susan? Why does Ruby have magic snow? Why does the Doctor keep breaking the fourth wall? Why did Ruby’s mom point at the sign, despite not originally doing so, when viewed through the time window. Why did she have a cloak and somehow manage to be invisible to the god of death, who can literally find people through their dead skin cells? Why did everyone break into song in The Devil’s Chord? Who is “The Boss” the Meep referred to? Where is Rogue? Who is his “new boss? Is he evil? Is the ring a tracker? Is Gallifrey back? Is the Flux reversed? Where is the Toymaker’s tooth with the Master in it and who picked it up? Who is Ruby’s father? And finally, why can’t they manage to make more than eight episodes when they have Disney money and apparently enough time with the cast to have already finished season 2?
Thanks for the chuckle and the comment. You nailed a lot of the same questions that have been swimming around in my head since I saw the finale. I really hope we get more answers next season. I have a feeling that we haven't seen the last of Ruby.
This is all utterly valid.
Honestly I would’ve been more okay IF 15 had explicitly been travelling the dead universe in his Memory Tardis for untold years.
Ruby and Mel are somewhere with a few other survivors trying to “hide amongst the last living beings” while 15 is off, but what is several months to them is decades where 15 has been walking through dead forests, barren worlds, and empty cities setting up his plan to defeat Sutekh.
THATS why he’s able to capture him, not with just “intelligent” rope but with rope that he’s woven from particles gathered from a thousand worlds in a thousand times that Sutekh had touched. And all of that together could be transformed by the Doctor into a physical lynchpin to briefly let him harness Sutekh to the TARDIS.
The problem is 73-yards is, they explicitly confirm, the radius of tne perception filter, and we get the flashbacks to Rogers interview, so its not just weird, unexplained solo mystery like midnight was, but is clearly tied to Ruby and Sutekh. Meaning, it kind of needs some hint of an explanation, Russel.
I think it might just be that the woman had a perception filter similar to the Tardis, which is why other people didn't seem to notice her until Ruby told them and had them notice her
will probs come up in future seasons a bit like how mavity is mentioned here and there still or how the boss keeps getting mentioned. theres hints for a future season.
I think it’s called “the gun in the draw” in writing.
If you make a big point of something, you need to do something with it. And they made a big point of the whole 73 yards thing, but didn’t do anything with it.
But isn't Chekhov's gun specifically the idea that something shown *will* end up coming back later and being important? Like, someone mentions the gun in an early scene, drawing attention to it, only because later on the gun is going to actually have some significance in the story.
But this season was full of situations like, "Look at this gun! And this one! And this one!" And then the finale comes, and none of them turn up or have any significance at all.
I’m on the fence. I get that the mystery is the strength of that episode but on the other hand it’s killing me not to know. But I’d rather never know if the alternative is a weak and nonsensical explanation.
I would have been okay with it if we didn't end the season with "Oh, Ruby's mum is totally normal, and Ruby's just normal, nothing different about them from any other human."
Excuse me, a normal human isn't going to be able to live an entire life being followed by their supernatural clone, then on their death bed somehow project themselves through time to a point where they can exist alongside themselves without it collapsing everything in a paradox, in order to stop the former self from doing something.
But you know what the worst part is? The finale confirmed that the ending of that episode, while it "saved" the Doctor, ended up erasing everything that happened in the episode. All that effort she put in to stop that guy becoming PM, and it's confirmed in the finale that he became PM anyway and did all kinds of bad things. So the episode basically contributes nothing except showing that Ruby has some kind of time-bending powers and can be in the same spot at the same time without creating a paradox... but the finale says that Ruby had no power or anything and there's nothing different about her.
It's one of those things where the more you think about it, the more your brain hurts.
Because the curse was to make Ruby live a life where everyone abandoned her, which was her biggest fear due to what happened with her mum. So the woman 73 yards away had the effect of doing that if people came in contact with her.
Even worse, the episode shows her doing all this stuff to stop him becoming PM. The DNA testing only happens because he does become PM, because the ending of 73 Yards wiped out that whole timeline where she puts in that effort and stops him. So 73 Yards, as an episode, was a weird episode that did nothing other than show something weird is up with Ruby... and then the finale says, "Nah, nothing's weird about her."
I don't think the woman had anything to do with Sutekh. I think they're likely just explaining how the perception filter works to new fans - nobody notices the woman, but once Ruby points her out they can.
> I get that, but what did the woman do?
No idea. I mean, the whole episode is a weird thing that closes with it wiping out everything that happened in the episode (confirmed in the finale). But the best I can figure, since at the end we see it's old Ruby projecting herself through time who's seen on the hill trying to tell young Ruby to avoid the circle, is that somehow old Ruby follows her through time and only doesn't cause a time-shattering paradox because younger Ruby isn't aware of her, but people who talk to her find that out and realize they can't be around young Ruby now because it might cause that paradox and destroy everything?
But I could be putting a lot more thought into it than RTD did.
The woman was turning the people who came near her, against Ruby.
Ruby always wanted an answer to the woman mystery in that aborted timeline, and always wanted an answer to her mother, who left her and gave her that fear. So, when people tried to find out the answer to the first mystery, they gave her the same punishment as what she took from the second one. It's a cruel, ironic punishment from the fairies for disturbing the circle.
I don't think the mechanics as to how she turned them against her are explained beyond she's magical and a curse created by the fairies, which is enough - the timeline was an alternate one created by the fairies just to punish Ruby, so it's safe to assume they had full power over it.
Is it because at 73 yards, they can see Sutekh? If he's been following her around.
Or was he attached to the TARDIS and nowhere near Ruby for that episode.
Some of these are answered though. They broke out into song as part of the prize for defeating Maestro, just like the Toymaker left the gift of two TARDIS’ and Sutekhs defeat gave the gift of life. They answered who Ruby’s father was in the episode, in the same scene as her mother reveal.
The boss and Rogue stuff is obviously being answered later on. RTD has set up future plot lines in past seasons before (Torchwood, Vote Saxon) so it’s not a surprise that some stuff is being left for later on.
> Is Gallifrey back? Is the Flux reversed?
We have no reasons to suspect this unless everyone who ever died was brought back to life, which we clearly would've seen in the end of the ep.
> Why did everyone break into song in The Devil’s Chord?
The episode even explicitly highlights this when people around the city start singing and playing instruments after Maestro is defeated. They're happy to have music return. Also we've seen the residual power left after Toymaker, so it's fair to assume the same happened here as well.
Why did Maestro hear a song in Ruby that they'd never heard in any other human? Why can she make it snow? Why was her mother unable to be seen by security cameras, a time traveler, a time window, and the literal god of death? How did Sutekh survive the Big Bang 2, that time the TARDIS became a woman and died but not really, that time the TARDIS got turned into a paradox machine, and multiple trips through the void, and how did he not get thrown off like Captain Jack? Does killing death mean people can't die anymore? Is Gallifrey back?
Some of my personal questions:
- why can Ruby make it snow if her bloodline is just regular human
- what the heck happened in 73 yards. Everything about that episode pretty much. I hoped to get some answers to this in the finale but I only got hints (something about the tardis chameleon thing at 73 yards, and Ruby unknowingly remembering things about that number)
- the pointing of Ruby's mom was way too dramatic and I'm not buying the explanation of the signpost when no one could realistically see her other than the doctor, who arguably must be considered a passerby and I don't see her signing that to a random guy in the hopes he tells the people in the church about the name. I find it more convincing she pointed directly at sutekh - for whatever reason
And that isn't to say I hated the episode, I had a great time, just that I'm expecting some more answers in the next season(s), it's not like 2005+ doctor never had stories over multiple seasons right? :)
My personal theory is that rubys snow isn't a product of her uniqueness but instead was caused by the universe being fucked up by the flux. Basically wierd shit is happening because the universe is fucked. Like ruby turning into a lizard person during space babies
I don't think the problem is red herrings as such, it's that the evidence makes no sense.
If the show acted like the mother was important and put stuff in that was just coincidence then I think it could have worked. But Ruby could bring the memories of the past literally into the present, so how can she be normal
But that’s what red herrings are for!!! You’re not meant to take everything so literally. Didn’t you hear they’re bringing MAGIC into the Whoniverse, which means they don’t need to provide any explanations to anything and you’re all silly if you DON’T GET THAT. You know, because magic!
Edit to add /s even though I didn’t think I needed to
I really dislike RTD's writing when mysticism is involved. I feel like he doesn't bother explaining it, which can be fine for the actual mechanics of magic, but there's also no INTERNAL logic to anything that is happening which makes the conclusions to about half the episodes just stupid.
>Also, can no one die now?
Sutekh being imprisoned by the other Osirans didn't stop death from being a thing. Sutekh represents death and has powers related to death and is called the "god of death," but death still exists without him. Just like the Doctor claims to represent life, but if the Doctor ceased to exist that wouldn't mean all life stops (that we know of 😉).
So - yeah, people can still die now.
>She was pointing at the signpost. What.
I literally started cackling at this scene when I watched last night and I'm STILL cracking up over this 😂😂😂 I know it's supposed to be some touching thing that Ruby's mom named her but... *She was alone on the street and no one watching that surveillance video would be thinking she was pointing to name her baby.* Like, just go back to the church and leave a note?
I just... Oh, RTD, I know you like to reach with some things, and it doesn't bother me at all, but THAT explanation was a stretch far beyond even my very flexible suspension of disbelief. Really, it just makes more sense that Ruby's mom was just pointing at the Doctor like "Don't follow me" and inadvertently ended up covering her face to where she became this huge mystery yada yada.
Imagine if it wasn't The Doctor in that moment, and was someone else who took that moment literally. The big reveal would be Ruby's real name is Sign Post.
I'll keep saying this, but dramatic cloak, dramatic pointing, dramatically leaving her child on the church porch, 2004, fifteen years old, poor home life?
She was a chuuni.
I almost feel like they had a better reason at some point and changed it. Like, the CCTV footage of Ruby's mother was from a storage yard 66 meters away. Which is also 73 feet. And we get a whole explainer about the Tardis perception filter having a 66 meter radius.
Idk what it might've been, and maybe they didn't either, they put those details expecting to have the story come together in a more interesting way, but they just didn't plan it all out? Or the script got butchered later?
I mean hell, say the Tardis (being alive and aware of future/past events) consciously used the perception filter to hide the mother, knowing that it would lead to this timeline, where they trick Sutekh using the only thing he doesn't know/understand.
Or hell, have them be like "why couldn't we see her" and everyone be like "idk" and then they get back in the tardis and there's just a "Bad wolf ;)" or something, basically the same idea as before but with GodRose setting those events in motion instead of the Tardis.
Right! With all the mentions of the perception filter range and 73 feet I was so sure Ruby was going to have been created by the TARDIS as a means to beat Suetek as Suetek has been using the TARDIS to create all those Susan variations. That would mean it was that connection to the TARDIS that allowed her to create the snow by drawing on that memory in time. It honestly just makes so much more sense than what we got that answered nothing
That was my theory too. Though I prefer Ruby's mum being a regular person, I wish there weren't so many red herrings because they don't make much sense with the final outcome.
I’m still not over the fact that she somehow found and chose to wear a giant floor length mysterious black hooded cloak…IN 2004. just wear a normal hoodie lol ffs
didn't CoRR show a priest opening the door and picking up baby Ruby? maybe he was supposed to see her pointing to the road sign, despite them seemingly never showing him again in any of these supposedly key moments...?
Ah yes, one of those specialist Anglican priests who can see around corners and through walls. I appreciate the effort in rationalising it but it's just a very symbolic thing with zero sensible reasoning. I don't mind that sometimes but when it becomes an entire running theme for a season, it wears thin.
I mean the priest is at that church all the time and is familiar with the area I’m sure he already knows what that sign post says without having to actively look at it
I feel a bit like Ruby’s mum just being an ordinary woman is both fine and disappointing. On the one hand building up the idea that Ruby’s mum is somehow this big important mystery only to pull the rug out from underneath the audience is a bit of a “haha, gotcha!”. On the other hand there were so many theories and speculation that I don’t think any answer would’ve been satisfying.
I think it is an interesting look at the mindset of someone who is adopted. We the audience build up this idea that Ruby’s mum is important, because she’s built it up. Though they went for the Hollywood ending that Ruby isn’t rejected by her birth mother.
The reveal though still leaves things not properly answered. Like why does it snow and play carol of the bells around Ruby? If there was an answer it was a bad one that wasn’t clear.
Also the idea that a normal 15yr old in 2004 would’ve worn that cloak and hood and then points to a road sign to indicate to no one that she wants her baby called Ruby…was just so stupid and a laughable answer
I would have loved the « she’s a nobody » reveal if the show was more subtle.
« She was important because we made her important » is a lovely sentiment, but it doesn’t work outside the show. We, the audience, thought she was important because the show kept telling us that she was for (almost) 9 episodes.
And I still don’t buy the fact that a god of death that can literally find people through dead skin didn’t know who she was. That and all the unexplained things like the snow.
This a good example of making someone important through the writers telling us they have to be compared to making someone important by fan theories alone is The Last Jedi.
I’m not going to get into commentary of if people liked the movie or not, even if they liked the twist or not, but TLJ did “they are no one” twist well.
The only person the movie who cares about Reys parents are herself because obviously she wants to know why she was left. She doesn’t really put any great meaning into them other than who are they and why did they leave her.
But the fandom goes crazy with theories that have literally no backing or hinting at in the movies and so when it’s revealed that her parents were (originally) nobody, it not only fits the theme of the movie (you don’t have to be born to a special family to be special) but also it wasn’t pissing on fans because the movies themselves never speculated like that…only the fans went crazy with speculation.
But in these episodes of Doctor Who, they beat us over the head with “The mom is so mysteriousssssss”.
Wholeheartedly agree, I personally really like the Rey twist from TLJ (ignoring TRoS) and that’s what I had in mind when I said DW should have been more subtle.
I know the community would have gone crazy with theories without the show screaming how important that character is, it would have made things so much more impactful. It doesn’t solve everything, but it would have been a start.
The Rey twist works really well because it moves Rey's character forward. She DOES care that her parents were nobody because it means she has to do this all on her own now. If they were important, then she gets what she wants and knows who she has to live up to, why she was left behind and where to go next.
I don't hate the twist like others seem to. My mindset is simply, "Huh, so that's that then. Looking forward to next season." That being said, the answer to this mystery doesn't move Ruby's character forward. She doesn't care that her mom was nobody. In fact, it's almost a relief to her. Now she can just settle down.
She'll be in the next season so they'll have to write new challenges for her instead of growing from the ones they've already established. And that's fine and I'm sure it'll even be good but I'm not sure if it'll be as interesting.
And if that's the case, wouldn't it stand to reason that other orphans, who also wonder who their mothers are and whether they are special, would not be caught by Sutekh because he would be too curious about who those people were, just like he was about Ruby's mom?
Yeah, I’m all for suspension of disbelief, especially with DW, but there were a lot of things that were stretching the limits of my tolerance. That and the pointing thing, it was beyond silly -
But if Ruby is just a normal orphan with normal parents then how was she able to make it snow? And how come Sutek a literal God not find out who she was? It feels less like a red herring and more like it was cobbled together. It feels like RTD didn’t know how to make the ending tie up all the loose ends and just went fuck it that’s good enough.
The snow makes no sense. I do like the idea that some things become important because we make them important (which they were trying to go for). But for that importance to extrapolate up to become important to Gods or the key to save the universe, the person who makes it important would need to have some ability or be that significant themselves. Which ties back into why it always snows. It feels like there is something more there.
Did we make it important, or did they force it as a focal point for nearly every episode. We had no choice but to focus on it because they made us. It’s one thing slipping Red Herrings in, I think it’s another to make them a focal point and then be like, oh she’s only important because you made her important. No, I didn’t, you did Russell.
I’d have happily accepted Ruby as a foundling and Carla as her mom for her backstory if the show itself didn’t insist her mothers identity was important.
> Also the idea that a normal 15yr old in 2004 would’ve worn that cloak and hood and then points to a road sign to indicate to no one that she wants her baby called Ruby…was just so stupid and a laughable answer
That bit pissed me off the most. I can deal with her being ordinary and some of the other flaws, but this really soured it as a build up. The whole cloak thing would imply someone special, different or whatever. Just have her wear a big ass poncho or something. Also, why would she point at a sign? Who is there to see it? That also was some bad misleading stuff. That one part was just so poorly written and thought out in my opinion.
I was 15 back in 2004 and I can say with some certainty than basically no girl my age would’ve gone out wearing a cloak like that. It was designed to be weird, mysterious and a bit otherworldly and doesn’t fit with “she’s a normal girl”.
I was 18 in 2004 and had a cloak due to LARP; can confirm that it was hard to get those (mine was sewn for me by a relative) and that they are not what you would wear back then to avoid attracting attention. Very much the opposite.
I *hope* there's more to it. Her mother being hidden was necessary to set in motion the events that lead to Sutekh's demise. Now, this season has been very meta (people breaking the 4th wall, even the Doctor) -- Assuming it's not a choice for comedic relief, there must be another higher level story in progress. I was expecting a meta ending where the writers are the Villain, or some Villain had taken control of the Doctor who story, in a literal sense, they basically control the script. If either of those are true, or even something similar, than another god, or a higher level being, could manipulate the story to hide Ruby's mother, (if they had some motivation to end Sutekh, perhaps they simply don't want all life to be destroyed, who knows). Could also manipulate the story so everybody (in the show) just accepts "guess we manifested her importance, oh well, let's not poke at this any further". Someone else said Mrs. Flood might be the God of Stories. Not many stories with everyone dead, so she would have incentive to kill Sutekh, and assuming she doesn't want to be discovered, has reason to manipulate the story to hide her involvement. Idk, hope there is more too it, but even if there is, very bold choice trying to re-vitalize the franchise and having /that/ ending.
Ruby's mother being no one important and nothing special about her would be fine... if they hadn't spent the whole season and finale showing how Ruby had all these special things around her, and the mother somehow being completely obscured in any visual of her, and so many other things that were absolutely, one hundred percent, *not* ordinary.
You can't just tell people all kinds of stuff and then claim it was something else entirely. There's misdirection, and then there's outright lying to the audience. Putting all these mystical things around Ruby and her mother shows that there was definitely more to them. If the intent all along was for there not to be, then don't lie constantly in showing that there is.
There's ways to try to build it up and then come back to "Oh, no, nothing extraordinary about them." But they chose to constantly *show* that there without a doubt *was* something extraordinary about them. At that point, you can no longer try to play it off like "We just thought she was special so she was!"
I'm so out of it because I'm sick so hopefully what I say makes sense. You're right. I wish they handled it like they handled Clara's impossibility. Same girl, in different places, different times. She's a regular person but worked it out and did something remarkable. The clues, in hindsight, made sense. We weren't misled.
Souffle isn't the souffle. The souffle is the recipe.
Oh my head
Mrs. Flood is most likely a god of Story. The whole season is a meta narrative that makes sense if you look at it from the eye of a God of Stories using the rules of story to alter things in the same manner that the Toymaker uses the rules of play.
Who would be older than the Toymaker or the Maestro? The Storyteller. Who was using Ruby to ensure Sutekh wouldn't win.
I'm hoping so much that this is true. You can explain every logical leap if someone is making it like a story book. That was even hinted at in Space Babies with some outside force making a situation like a fairy tale.
Hopefully this is part of the Christmas plot.
I also think there is a bigger plot going on with stories, and that this entire season is within it. It goes us a nice excuse for anything that doesn't quite work like the memory of Ruby's mum. As a fairytale ending to a story though it works. Her mum does exist, is alive, and wants to know Ruby.
However, I'm not expecting a Christmas episode to conclude anything. I'm expecting another season continuing the Mrs Flood mystery.
Maybe Mrs Flood is actually a Mrs Pond / River. And they're within the simulation in the library.
It could also explain why the bi-generation happened when the Doctor thought it was a myth (not sure they ever plan on explaining that tbh but it'd be nice if they did)
Very well could be. My initial thought on Mrs. Flood in this Season 1 finale was that she was an older Clara. Mainly because when they were brought back she said "He figured it out, that clever boy." Which is something I seem to recall only Clara calling The Doctor.
The whit costume with the hood at the end was also a throwback to Romana who traveled with the 4th doctor.
I don’t think the Clever Boy thin means she’s Clara. I think she just is referencing a few companions cause he character knows the Doctors history and is referring to it overall.
Same reason the Toymaker could be banished. She's bound by the rules of story. She can tweak the story but she can't ignore it. Toymaker was bound by the rules of play. She's bound by the rules of story.
The thing that gets me about the pointing is, it’s already been established that when Ruby was originally left there in 2004, *the woman was not pointing*. Even when The Doctor came back to save baby Ruby from goblins, *no pointing*. It was only in Space Babies that his memory of the event changed, that time itself changed so that the woman suddenly started pointing at The Doctor and the TARDIS. And if the sign was behind the TARDIS, then she only started pointing after the box was there, meaning she couldn’t even see the sign she was supposedly pointing at? Methinks we need to apply Rule 1 here: The Doctor lies.
Ruby’s story is not done, we have a whole extra season to go. The problem for me is how RTD has neatly tied this fake version of events up in such an unsatisfying way and left us to stew on it for months before we get the Christmas Special and Season 2, which will (hopefully) give us the real answers.
Omg yes I think he’s lying too! And I think the season is purposefully supposed to leave you with all these questions so we tune into season 2
As an overthinker though with all the themes of the season I think I can understand why it would just be underwhelming. We give value to things and go to war over them when they’re literally nothing. Our world leaders seem to bring death for seemingly nothing turning everything to dust to what end ? A part that struck me was when Mel was possessed and she said so you can reign over your kingdom of nothing. Literally who do you reign over once you have killed it all, killed all life.
As for the bringing death to death I think it was just one of those well it’s a fictional show we need a happy ending and it was nice for me bc well I love it when big bads bring upon their own demise idk maybe it’s bc I grew up watching Disney stuff
I agree with everything you're saying. I think fans will be arguing over this finale until the Christmas episode. Although some things make thematic sense like "sometimes people are ordinary and that's fine" it very obviously lacks logical sense or in universe explanation. Some die hard fans are just gonna dismiss it with "Well that's how DW has always been" or "that's how RTD thematically writes all people"
edit: its crazy that this post was buried until 8 hours after being posted and suddenly went from 0 to 70 likes in 2 hrs
I think part of why it's so frustrating that Ruby's mum is just normal is because the Susan Twist thing turned out to be a flop too.
So you have these two great mysteries propelling the series, and honestly driving a lot of viewership,and they both turn out to be utterly dull.
Imo the reason it was so disappointing was because the show went *so* out of its way to tell us that Ruby is not actually ordinary, which makes sense thematically but not really logically. I was expecting it to be that she's ordinary but some god was involved that did something, not because every character needs to be special or have powers but because a lot of the season doesn't really make sense unless there's more of an explanation for it.Even something like the gods of life giving her a tiny power or shielding her from Sutekh would've made sense, whereas now I'm just like wait what did Maestro see in her
It's the false flags that are most annoying. There being something special about Ruby, pointing at a sign when the sign didn't exist in the memory, time changing in that moment, the snow, Mrs Flood.
This. Her mom being normal isn’t the problem.
It’s literally that the show told us and repeatedly showed us that her and ruby are special and that there is a great mystery behind them.
Yeah like, this wasn't a "fans assumed something was going to be more important" thing, they pretty much explicitly stated it. Ruby being normal is only disappointing because of all the times the show implied that she wasn't!
Yeah I really don't care for the people both dismissing it as "something RTD always does" or "its always been like this". It feels really dismissive of his first 4 seasons.
I only really had this same issue on some level with the Journey's End, but that had such a signicant emotional payoff and was just pretty fun that I could look past it. I think his first 3 seasons had pretty logical and satisfying endings though that intentionally wrapped themselves up pretty tightly. After a really fun first part, Empire just fell flat all around.
A much more interesting twist would have been "Wait, she's totally normal and Ruby is just a regular human according to all tests... so what the hell is happening?" and then have that be the cliffhanger while the tardis groaning/sutekh stuff was the "main plot".
I don’t even mind the “DW has always been like this” stupid solutions to villains, my main issue is that they really overestimated how much we CARE about Ruby. I shed a few tears because Kate died but I’ve had zero feelings about Ruby. It’s like… why is the Doctor sad that’s she’s leaving? How did she change him? We saw nothing and therefore don’t care
> How did she change him?
This one especially bothered me because he was talking about how she taught him about family, and it's like....no, that was the Nobles one regeneration ago. Y'know, the folks you spent years living with as a chosen family and who are *literally the reason why you aren't an angsty burnt out wreck.*
It was really just not earned...at all.
And Amy and Rory who always kept a plate on the table for Christmas for him even though they didn’t know if he would come? We’ve had several moments where he was part of a family, and this wasn’t it.
Hmm I might be mis-remembering but didn't he say she taught him something about family he didn't know or consider before? If so then my take is to do with them both (at the start of it) were the same, orphans, with an unknown past / parentage. She strove to find her mum, went against the Dr's advice to not approach her in the cafe and was relentless in her need to find where she came from. The Dr doesn't look back, he keeps striding forward, hasn't looked into where he came from, or gone back for Susan - he is afraid of being rejected by his blood. Ruby showed he can have his current family(s) but can also go back and look in on his original ones.... Or something
Edit-cleaning up autocorrects
Yeah the thing is that between the huge finale, 73 yards where the doctor is not there, another episode where the doctor is stuck on a landmine the entire time, we didn't really see ruby and the doctor do much travelling together right ?
I get that they did a few more adventures since when they showed the Susan variants there were a few we didn’t see in previous episodes, but nothing that shows us why they’re bffs.
That Ruby was intriguing at the start with the goblins and the song and the snow and that’s why the Doctor stuck around (he was curious!), and THEN gradually developed this friendship, that I would understand. But “I saved you from goblins and you’re my ride or die now”? She doesn’t even know he had other faces!
If they'd put in some reference to someone like Mrs Flood being a story god like everyone theorises, and have that as the reason for everything being more narrative over logical, I would be 100% behind that. Hell, if the Christmas episode does that, it could repair a lot of the issues.
I genuinely thought that was where they were going with it, it feels more magical and fantastical because someone is MAKING it that way. I hate to say it this way but right now, it feels like the only one making it like this is one Michael Mouse. Fingers crossed for Mrs Flood claiming it all at Christmas.
Apparently we won't find out who Mrs Flood is until the end of season two.
And with the current writing, she is just an eccentric lady talking to pigeons just outside the shot.
I don’t think people would care overall if her mom turned out normal IF it was only the fans doing the speculations with no support from the actual show.
The Last Jedi did something like this originally. Rey’s parents ended up being nobodies, but that was fine as a twist because in the movies they literally never hint that they are anything but parents who abandoned Rey for some reason. She wanted to know who they were because they had meaning to her, but the movies themselves don’t add any greater mystery to them.
This show however does. The writers beat you over the head with clearly the mom is mysterious and important. Time is changing around her. Ruby can literally shape reality with snow and music.
It makes ZERO sense that her mom is normal because even if ruby believed she was special that wouldn’t just give her magic powers and it wouldn’t make it so no one could see her, not even a god. Plus the memories of the mom change.
It was just a cop out with RTD trying to be a self centered smart ass “Haha, she wasn’t actually special, all your fan theories were dumb, she was only special because you the fans wanted her to be special!!!”.
yea, the whole twist of this season was, that there was no twist.
and i guess the "god of death" was a bad boy. wonder the doctor didn't spray water at him in the end.
and the doctor thinking he is life now... did we forget about our past incarnations, and a few genocides on the way? that, dear sir and/or ma'am, is not the definition of life.
Oh but let's not forget. Next time someone you love dies just take a gun and shoot their dead body in the head cause death plus death equals life.
It really was a ridiculously stupid solution.
It was established that sutekh was killing concepts like facts and memories earlier in the ep, so for me it made sense that he would be able to kill the concept of death as well
that wasn't set up nearly as well enough to justify the entire ending. Maybe if they didn't spend 45 minutes in Legend building up to nothing but Sutekhs reveal they could have given some more time to emphasize that ability.
I agree with everything you said, but the bigger issue for me was that it was basically Rey's parents being nobodies from Star Wars + The Blip from Avengers. It felt utterly unoriginal.
The thing is, at least there wasn't a logical issue with Rey's parents being nobodies. At least that was plausible.
Ruby's parents being regular people but having these special abilities and Ruby having special abilities is insane.
I really thought he was a skilled enough writer to realize WHY Rey's parents being normal people was a good reveal. Rey was set up as a force user with mysterious parents. Nothing suggested her parents were special, that was purely fan speculation. The reveal that her parents were normal was in part a smart commentary on Star Wars fans and their assumptions, but it was also thematically powerful and fit within the story which had been set up.
Meanwhile Ruby's mum being ordinary solely comments on the fans, and it doesn't add up with the 8ish episodes prior at all. It's like he looked at Rey Nobody and said "I want to do that" on a whim, without realizing what made it work or why it was a good reveal. Midwit writing, I'm very sad to say.
Moffat would sometimes go "get excited! get excited! something GOOD is coming!!!" and then yank the ball away last second. He'd do it in Sherlock as well as Doctor Who. RTD seems to have picked up the habit from him.
Rey’s parents being nobodies was a wonderful idea. It told the audience that anyone can be special regardless of the circumstances of your birth. I actually think it works here in doctor who and it is explained through a sort of paradox feedback loop.
Let’s hope they don’t pull a RoS and Ruby’s mum ends up having a pocket watch at home.
Yeah, the thing with Ruby's mother was disappointing. It's an interesting idea that maybe could have been a decent episode, but not the culmination of a season long mystery. Especially since it doesn't really explain anything. I thought I read that the mystery of Ruby would span two seasons, so maybe there's more. If not, that was an unsatisfying answer.
I'm afraid further developments on what Ruby 'is' in S2 will come across as retcons now 😔
They really tied her up too 'neatly' this season. No satisfactory explanation on 73 yards or the snow, or the mum in the cloak changing in the doctor's memory. I cannot take the "pointing at Road sign" thing seriously. It's has to be a misdirect, please. Please? Ugh!
This is one of my pet peeves by the way... shows that kneecap their own finale for the sake of "next season".
I’ve been incredibly underwhelmed with this new season honestly. It just doesn’t feel like the Doctor to me; can’t quite place my finger on it, but something’s off (I’m assuming the writing)
For me, it’s a combination of two things.
First is that there just hasn’t been enough time with 15. The whole thing’s felt so short and rushed.
The other, is that there just aren’t many slow moments. 15 is all running around, dancing in night clubs, calling people “babes”, and crying every episode. It feels like such a departure from the character we know, for me.
It’s a shame, because when we actually get those slow moments, we can see 15 shine. It’s like that moment where 9 talks about the turn of the Earth, or 10 telling Martha about Gallifrey in Gridlock, or 11 talking about Trenzalore to Clara in Name of the Doctor, etc.
The show doesn’t give us a minute to breathe. It’s like RTD thinks the audience’s attention span is too short, so he needs everything to constantly be moving.
So much of what made RTD’s first era so good is missing from this one.
It is the writing but I also think it's a combination of multiple things
1. Barley any time with the Doctor and Ruby: I STILL don't know their relationship to each other. It's like all they've said to each other this series is "omg so true bestie!" and that's it. They've barely argued, they've barley disagreed with each other, there's no real tension between them. Even 10 and Donna had disagreements even though they were the best of friends. Ruby apparently 'changed the Doctor' but it didn't feel like it in the slightest.
2. Ruby is just kinda bland?: I'm meant to care about Ruby but shown very little about her life outside of her being adopted and looking for her birth mother. What does she like? What does she dislike? What are her hobbies and interests? If the things I've listed were shown in this series, they've had very little impact on her character for me to care. It felt like every episode was her first because of how little we know about her actual life outside the Doctor.
3. The universe is very clearly wrong but nothing has come from it: I thought (and liked the idea) that we'd see more 'magical' things appear in the universe thanks to the salt in WBY, but nothing has come from it outside of the Pantheon of Discord. How can science fiction and fantasy live as one in this show? I'd have liked to have seen more of this but we didn't, we're still in this weird era of literally anything being possible with 0 explanation because 'magic'. Also Mavity still being a thing for some reason.
4. Too many plot twists and red herrings: Self explanatory. Way to many to keep up with and have satisfying endings for, as shown in the finale. Do 1 series long mystery and leave it there, don't shove in more just for 'viewer engagement' and forget about the story telling.
5. 8 episode series: Way to short to care about literally anything happening since you blink and it's the finale.
I like the season overall but I had the same thought yesterday - it feels like ever since Wild Blue Yonder and the more supernatural tone of the episodes since then, it hasn't really felt like Nuwho but more like 'Who if it was a Disney+ original' with that weirdly flat cgi feel to it. I went back and watched some series 3 and 4 episodes recently, and it made me see a lot of what's changed since RTD's first go.
What's off for me is the style of filming. We went from a very cinematic style in the specials to something where I am acutely aware these are people standing on sets wearing costumes. I sort of hoped it was part of the story, the way the breaking of the fourth wall was popping up.
As well as the writing, for me it was the acting, i dont mean to discredit the casts skills, they are quite good, but i feel as though it just didnt hit the mark. I think that to be the doctor, you have to be able to display feelings of deep anger. The previous doctors were extremely good at this, as though they have experienced it all themselves. But this doctor just seems to be shouting the words without the anger. It just seems all so basic to me. Every doctor has the big speeches, the quotes, but i just dont find the current one as uplifitng/angry as the previous ones. One thing i like about the past doctors is that they took the role and made it their own, they were the doctor, but i feel like this isnt as strong in this season.
He's not fleshed out, he doesn't have the defining moment that other Doctors do - Tenant killing the bad guy at the end of his first episode, Matt Smith going from silly goose to extremely competent and intimidating in his first episode, Capaldi being a cranky boy... I don't have an example of Jodie's.
I guess he's supposed to be a carefree version that has let go of the PTSD past but he almost seems extremely emotional and kind of inept? He's always frozen and emotionally reacting (his breakdown during the music episode about there not being anything to do, not being able to sacrifice Ruby, just looking at Ruby's mom and crying, etc), depending on others, not actually \*doing things\* except the wrap up for Boom... which was a stereotypical Moffat 'the doctor is suddenly super smart' ending.
I also feel like they've gone out of their way to take the Doctor out of situations so it feels like he's barely in episodes at all - especially 73 Yards.
Yeah, the finale sucked. Absolutely abysmal writing. Everything was a red herring, I guess? Why not throw a deus ex machina in there as well for good measure.
>They brought back the literal god of death for a single episode, put a leash on him despite his penchant for turning into dust, and wiped him out in one go with barely any fight. The Toymaker, who explicitly feared Sutekh, put up more of a fight.
To me this is actually the worst aspect of the episode. He's literally not even an actual god nor functions like the actual gods, he's just a guy and the way he dies is very conventional (and poorly communicated). I TRIED to theorize that it was maybe Mrs. Flood behind it all (since, if she IS the God of Stories, then it would fit well with his whole "I'm a god!!" self-made mythology, but she was able to be killed by him). The entire premise for how he escaped just felt confusing and had too many implications. Did you even really need a big bad, really?
I think a better story that brought back established concepts from the era would have been focusing on the instability of the Ruby Road point in time and how that is causing things to break down.
Yeah, everyone’s talking about Ruby’s mum, but for me, Sutekh, the literal god of death, being defeated by a bungee rope is a far worse offence.
Probably my least favourite resolution to a villain in the entirety of the show’s history. In Pyramids of Mars, it’s established that Sutekh can destroy entire planets with mere thought. And we’re expected to believe he can’t get a bungee cord off his collar?
The biggest issue is he isn't even the actual god of death, and it doesn't make any sense. He's defeated like a conventional villain, he works like a conventional villain, and his main power totally relied on the Tardis (something we know doesn't even compare to the power of the actual gods who can manipulate it like its nothing).
He's just an "evolved" psychic and while that would not normally be an issue the fact they've introduced actual gods and have all the gods fear Sutekh feels so... bizarre. It feels like its just Sutekh to be Sutekh, because they liked Sutekh. They never even say how he's "the oldest one", he's literally a million years old at best (and the other gods are from OUTSIDE of time and the universe)
Whole thing felt like a waste and I really don't like how much this era has heavily relied on classic who things for no reason other then to have them. Was the whistle something from Classic Who? Why not say "he's not a real god, not like the ones we've faced, we can beat him" to establish that its possible to beat him via his own arrogance? Just feels soooo weird.
I agree with all of these except number 3. The way they talked about death all throughout that episode made it quite clear that the death Sutekh caused was different from normal death. Exactly why having Sutekh in the Vortex alone would undo what he'd done before is incomplete, but I'll leave it to wibbly wobbly timey wimey, the Doctor forced him to exist at too many points at once and the universe corrected itself by getting rid of Sutekh.
Don't get me wrong, it's not a good explanation at all. But there's no reason to assume that death in general no longer exists, or that anyone not killed by Sutekh should be back.
I don't think that sutekh is the incarnation of the concept of death, he is just a medium for instant death, which means he is as strong as the rest of the pantheon but can be disposed of as opposed to the literal concepts of games or music. Sutekh died when he was dragged into the vortex, and afaik when someone dies in or through the vortex they are basically erased across all of time and space, so yeah he killed sutekhs gift of death which just so happens to be the cause of death in all of time and space at this exact moment so you could say the doctor brought death to death because the people lived.
Well I agree in general I don’t think suttekh is the one who the toymaker feared. It seems like the one who waits is gonna be a larger thread related to Mrs flood.
Isn't Sutekh the one who waits? They made a big deal about how he waited on the Tardis since classic who. I think Mrs Flood will be revealed as the god of red herrings and being meta.
That would be pretty cool tho.
Imagine throughout the show there were small hints to “The Great Flood”. Something devastating worlds or idk. That could also explain why it’s in the bible.
Turns out, it’s not referring to an event, but Mrs. Flood. She is “The Great Flood”
RTD came up with the idea for "Tales of the TARDIS" long after they filmed the finale episode. In fact, the original script had a scene where the Memory TARDIS was destroyed after taking them to 2046 but it was cut for budget reasons. RTD said he's glad they cut that otherwise he might not have come up with the idea for Tales.
There are intros and outros with a classic Doctor and a companion as they are today. So older. After the intro it plays the whole story as I assume one long story. So each episode just flows into the next without cutting to the credits.
On the 20th they released one with 15 and Ruby then showed Suktek's story from the classic era with 4. All the others though show a story from the doctor and companion that's in the intro/outro.
Tiny piece of trivia - I'm in the US and my local public television station used to play Doctor who every Saturday night - this was roughly in 1986. (It's how I just randomly discovered the show.) But that's how they showed it, edited together into one long story.
It's kind of annoying to watch the classic ones now where they have the pseudo cliffhanger and the end credits in the opening credits and then repeat the last minute from the previous episode that we just watched.
Did they say what even happened to the memory Tardis?
I kind of thought the plot would be that they use the memory tardis as a backdoor into the real tardis but instead the memory tardis just IS another tardis
I have to say, I actually quite enjoyed this episode. I had more of an issue with the Ruby stuff than the Sutekh stuff though — it felt like a very “Doctor Who” way to deal with a pseudo-god. Tricking him to get close and then tying him to the TARDIS with effectively a leash because he’s a big dog and ragdolling him through the time vortex? I love it!
To your point about the toymaker, I reckon that if they dragged him through the time vortex on a heavy duty bungee cord, he probably wouldn’t have lasted too long either. They just dealt with the Toymaker in a different way — they utilized his fatal flaw to their advantage. Sutekh didn’t exactly have a game to be played against him / exploit and win like Toymaker and Maestro had, so time vortex it was.
Ruby’s situation did seem a bit underwhelming but I don’t mind characters being a nobody. The sign-pointing thing was a tad goofy though.
Overall, I really liked it! Definitely one of my favourites of the season which seems to be an unpopular opinion…
Toymaker was able to travel through time with supposed ease and may even have some degree of control over it, so why would the Time Vortex hurt him?
Also, vortex manipulators literally carry a person through the Time Vortex almost entirely unshielded and yet people can do it hundreds of times before there’s any side-effects.
The Doctor doesn’t represent life. He can’t. It ruins it for me. He’s The Doctor. The Valeyard. The Doctor of War. The Renegade. The destroyer of worlds. He’s a man who’s established a reputation of good and bad that monsters fear him. The Doctor is a monster and by no means a “good guy”. The Master is a psychopath. The Doctor is just not good. That’s their dynamic.
The Doctor is a physical choice of right and wrong. He’s not good or bad. He’s just a madman with a box who values the progression of life over everything.
The Doctor has an ego size of the universe. In TLV, 10 literally started a crusade against death and he would have succeeded if not for 8 and 9 who demonstrated him how messed up it was. And he also was very emotional during his “If you represent death, then I represent life” burst. He is not a god of life, he was just trash-talking the dog.
Yeah, it was painful.
Not long into the show my youngest asked how the doctor managed to get into stark tower - the upper floor of the tower was a source for the dust and had engulfed everything around it yet the doctor managed to reach Ruby…
Move over space dobby I think we have a new winner!
Hard agree on everything. It felt like the episode was written by a bad AI, so bizarre and pointless from start to finish. I thought most of this season was really quite good and brought back the feeling I got from Tennant-era Who at some points, but that finale was a straight up 0/10. Really horrendous payoff on literally every front
A show literally telling me that mysteries are gonna have disappointing answers tells me to never get invested in any future mystery
Compare this to the River Song twist that was staring us in the face the whole time
This is the problem with shows that try very hard to be unpredictable or to subvert expectation. Ok I was not expecting it, but this is litteral garbage. It makes no sense at all, this is juste a big middle finger to anyone foll9wing along and trying to make sense of the plot points and why they are happening.
The snowing? Fuck you it doesn't matter
The mother of Ruby? Fuck you it doesn't matter
Susan? Fuck you it doesn't matter
The whole point of 73 yards? FUCK YOU WE WON'T EXPLAIN ANYTHING about what this was about.
The series tried very hard to be mysterious only to say in the end that there was no mystery at all all along.
Very disapointing.
There's so much power creep that at some point every challenge the doctor faces just starts to feel underwhelming. If everything is more powerful than the previous time, but the doctor solves the problem by doing some twist at the end of the season, nothing really feels at stake.
I realized earlier that if i wanna compare this finale to the Bad Wolf reveal then it'd be like
"Oh i guess we only saw Bad Wolf everywhere because our brains like to find patterns"
Honestly, it seems to me that Ruby's revelation killed the entire season. It's like the worst script ever written in history, why the hell do you raise the scenario so much and make it so difficult if the revelation is going to be so bad.
It's a pretty big script error. It's not even an interesting twist, it's a: And somehow Sidious came back
Disappointing for sure that Ruby isn't special after all, but then again I'm glad she wasn't The Impossible Girl 2.0
When they mentioned the Step Father I thought he was Ruby's bio dad, and that's why she gave her up for adoption. Lol, but then I realized that would be too dark for a Kids show.
1) I know right? it's absurd. This should've been an actual two parter episode. Ruby road as the set up and then a double episode. Way too much was cut seemingly.
I really cant understate how poor the ending was. So they remote activated the tardis with a whistle. Why didnt they do that sooner? They used a rope that literally fell out of a cupboard in the weird ass memory tardis along with the gloves nobody liked. And they defeated the most powerful enemy doctor who has ever seen.
2) Ugh, yeah i'm fine with this in general, but the execution was piss poor. There's been so many references to ruby & the mom being special. To just handwave those away with "we gave it meaning so it had meaning" was ridiculous. Wtf was maestro's song comment about?!
3) I hated this so much. It makes not even a lick of sense. People were literally turned to dust. "Death+Death = Life" is just stupid honestly. Wasn't even any timey wimey involved, just pure nonsense.
4) OMFG, this was just the nail in the coffin for me. No logic just emotional drivel. Emotional drivel is how i'd sum up the last bit of the story involving the mother as well. That entire segment took up wayyyyy too much for how little it impacted anything at all.
Also want to add - THEY JUST DID A DNA LOOK UP. THATS IT. THATS HOW THEY FKING FOUND THE MOTHER. Ridiculous.
The memory tardis & the time window were the driving force behind everything that happened. Led them to the mother, got them the "magic" whistle & rope. If they'd acknowledged it as the tardis helping them somehow it might've been better. But as it is, this just felt lazy and daft.
OMG AND THE ENTIRE FKING SPOON PLANET. That ENTIRE segment MADE NO FKING SENSE. The memory tardis didnt have a spoon in it? or a bit of metal? SERIOUSLY?!
I swear moffat must've been a ghost writer for this or something. 6/10 and i'm being generous.
I think the point with the spoon was they needed something real, everything on the tardis was 'remembered'.
That said they couldve handled that issue better than introducing a random unknown planet with a new character I had no investment in.
Yeah totally. They mention it's low on power and everything so why go to a random planet for a spoon.
Also I guess? Though the rope came from the memory TARDIS too and that worked fine
I feel like this story arc should've been spread over 2 seasons rather than one, especially with each season only being 8 episodes it's just not enough time. I also feel like the first 5 minutes of episode 8 should've been the end of episode 7, would've been a much better cliffhanger
I just don't like the fact that they basically telegraphed bombshells (or at least one) both in the show and during interviews, and we got not a one.
This. The episode was fine, but they kept teasing this massive reveal that would answer all but one of our questions. They must not be aware of what our questions were.
I assume the unanswered question they were referring to was Mrs Flood. Which other ones are unanswered?
Where is Susan? Why does Ruby have magic snow? Why does the Doctor keep breaking the fourth wall? Why did Ruby’s mom point at the sign, despite not originally doing so, when viewed through the time window. Why did she have a cloak and somehow manage to be invisible to the god of death, who can literally find people through their dead skin cells? Why did everyone break into song in The Devil’s Chord? Who is “The Boss” the Meep referred to? Where is Rogue? Who is his “new boss? Is he evil? Is the ring a tracker? Is Gallifrey back? Is the Flux reversed? Where is the Toymaker’s tooth with the Master in it and who picked it up? Who is Ruby’s father? And finally, why can’t they manage to make more than eight episodes when they have Disney money and apparently enough time with the cast to have already finished season 2?
I would officially like to marry this comment.
I’m sorry, you seem like a lovely person but you’re just not the comment’s type.
Can we still be friends? I need this comment in my life.
Idk ask the comment not me.
Thanks for the chuckle and the comment. You nailed a lot of the same questions that have been swimming around in my head since I saw the finale. I really hope we get more answers next season. I have a feeling that we haven't seen the last of Ruby.
We have not. She’s confirmed for season 2 as well.
S2 Filming hints at the show following a longer multi season story due to the lack of episodes. One set has a bar/saloon? It had Harbinger on it.
Get in the queue.
This is all utterly valid. Honestly I would’ve been more okay IF 15 had explicitly been travelling the dead universe in his Memory Tardis for untold years. Ruby and Mel are somewhere with a few other survivors trying to “hide amongst the last living beings” while 15 is off, but what is several months to them is decades where 15 has been walking through dead forests, barren worlds, and empty cities setting up his plan to defeat Sutekh. THATS why he’s able to capture him, not with just “intelligent” rope but with rope that he’s woven from particles gathered from a thousand worlds in a thousand times that Sutekh had touched. And all of that together could be transformed by the Doctor into a physical lynchpin to briefly let him harness Sutekh to the TARDIS.
And why was everyone so terrified of Ruby in 73 yards?!
Actually, I’m fine with that episode just being a weird thing that isn’t explained. They step on a fairy circle and weird stuff ensues.
The problem is 73-yards is, they explicitly confirm, the radius of tne perception filter, and we get the flashbacks to Rogers interview, so its not just weird, unexplained solo mystery like midnight was, but is clearly tied to Ruby and Sutekh. Meaning, it kind of needs some hint of an explanation, Russel.
And they bring it up again in the final episode where she knows the perception filter is 73 yards, but then it’s never mentioned again
I think it might just be that the woman had a perception filter similar to the Tardis, which is why other people didn't seem to notice her until Ruby told them and had them notice her
This occurred to me, but a) why does she have a perception filter and b) why is it the exact same distance
will probs come up in future seasons a bit like how mavity is mentioned here and there still or how the boss keeps getting mentioned. theres hints for a future season.
I think it’s called “the gun in the draw” in writing. If you make a big point of something, you need to do something with it. And they made a big point of the whole 73 yards thing, but didn’t do anything with it.
Chekhov’s gun "One must never place a loaded rifle on the stage if it isn't going to go off. It's wrong to make promises you don't mean to keep."
But isn't Chekhov's gun specifically the idea that something shown *will* end up coming back later and being important? Like, someone mentions the gun in an early scene, drawing attention to it, only because later on the gun is going to actually have some significance in the story. But this season was full of situations like, "Look at this gun! And this one! And this one!" And then the finale comes, and none of them turn up or have any significance at all.
I’m on the fence. I get that the mystery is the strength of that episode but on the other hand it’s killing me not to know. But I’d rather never know if the alternative is a weak and nonsensical explanation.
I would have been okay with it if we didn't end the season with "Oh, Ruby's mum is totally normal, and Ruby's just normal, nothing different about them from any other human." Excuse me, a normal human isn't going to be able to live an entire life being followed by their supernatural clone, then on their death bed somehow project themselves through time to a point where they can exist alongside themselves without it collapsing everything in a paradox, in order to stop the former self from doing something. But you know what the worst part is? The finale confirmed that the ending of that episode, while it "saved" the Doctor, ended up erasing everything that happened in the episode. All that effort she put in to stop that guy becoming PM, and it's confirmed in the finale that he became PM anyway and did all kinds of bad things. So the episode basically contributes nothing except showing that Ruby has some kind of time-bending powers and can be in the same spot at the same time without creating a paradox... but the finale says that Ruby had no power or anything and there's nothing different about her. It's one of those things where the more you think about it, the more your brain hurts.
Because the curse was to make Ruby live a life where everyone abandoned her, which was her biggest fear due to what happened with her mum. So the woman 73 yards away had the effect of doing that if people came in contact with her.
I get that, but what did the woman do? And how does it tie in with Sutekh?
Yeah like she didn’t need to go through all of that for him to do mandatory DNA testing. That was a natural part of Rogers history.
Even worse, the episode shows her doing all this stuff to stop him becoming PM. The DNA testing only happens because he does become PM, because the ending of 73 Yards wiped out that whole timeline where she puts in that effort and stops him. So 73 Yards, as an episode, was a weird episode that did nothing other than show something weird is up with Ruby... and then the finale says, "Nah, nothing's weird about her."
I don't think the woman had anything to do with Sutekh. I think they're likely just explaining how the perception filter works to new fans - nobody notices the woman, but once Ruby points her out they can.
> I get that, but what did the woman do? No idea. I mean, the whole episode is a weird thing that closes with it wiping out everything that happened in the episode (confirmed in the finale). But the best I can figure, since at the end we see it's old Ruby projecting herself through time who's seen on the hill trying to tell young Ruby to avoid the circle, is that somehow old Ruby follows her through time and only doesn't cause a time-shattering paradox because younger Ruby isn't aware of her, but people who talk to her find that out and realize they can't be around young Ruby now because it might cause that paradox and destroy everything? But I could be putting a lot more thought into it than RTD did.
The woman was turning the people who came near her, against Ruby. Ruby always wanted an answer to the woman mystery in that aborted timeline, and always wanted an answer to her mother, who left her and gave her that fear. So, when people tried to find out the answer to the first mystery, they gave her the same punishment as what she took from the second one. It's a cruel, ironic punishment from the fairies for disturbing the circle. I don't think the mechanics as to how she turned them against her are explained beyond she's magical and a curse created by the fairies, which is enough - the timeline was an alternate one created by the fairies just to punish Ruby, so it's safe to assume they had full power over it.
Is it because at 73 yards, they can see Sutekh? If he's been following her around. Or was he attached to the TARDIS and nowhere near Ruby for that episode.
Some of these are answered though. They broke out into song as part of the prize for defeating Maestro, just like the Toymaker left the gift of two TARDIS’ and Sutekhs defeat gave the gift of life. They answered who Ruby’s father was in the episode, in the same scene as her mother reveal. The boss and Rogue stuff is obviously being answered later on. RTD has set up future plot lines in past seasons before (Torchwood, Vote Saxon) so it’s not a surprise that some stuff is being left for later on.
They never elaborated on the snow, huh?
All this questions are why I think the new season had bad pacing and wished it had the usual 13 episodes.
Why was Maestro so perplexed by Ruby!!
You perfectly explained the mavity of the situation.
> Is Gallifrey back? Is the Flux reversed? We have no reasons to suspect this unless everyone who ever died was brought back to life, which we clearly would've seen in the end of the ep. > Why did everyone break into song in The Devil’s Chord? The episode even explicitly highlights this when people around the city start singing and playing instruments after Maestro is defeated. They're happy to have music return. Also we've seen the residual power left after Toymaker, so it's fair to assume the same happened here as well.
Why did Maestro hear a song in Ruby that they'd never heard in any other human? Why can she make it snow? Why was her mother unable to be seen by security cameras, a time traveler, a time window, and the literal god of death? How did Sutekh survive the Big Bang 2, that time the TARDIS became a woman and died but not really, that time the TARDIS got turned into a paradox machine, and multiple trips through the void, and how did he not get thrown off like Captain Jack? Does killing death mean people can't die anymore? Is Gallifrey back?
And that time the TARDIS split itself in two. Which, y'know, RTD wrote in the specials leading into this season.
Some of my personal questions: - why can Ruby make it snow if her bloodline is just regular human - what the heck happened in 73 yards. Everything about that episode pretty much. I hoped to get some answers to this in the finale but I only got hints (something about the tardis chameleon thing at 73 yards, and Ruby unknowingly remembering things about that number) - the pointing of Ruby's mom was way too dramatic and I'm not buying the explanation of the signpost when no one could realistically see her other than the doctor, who arguably must be considered a passerby and I don't see her signing that to a random guy in the hopes he tells the people in the church about the name. I find it more convincing she pointed directly at sutekh - for whatever reason And that isn't to say I hated the episode, I had a great time, just that I'm expecting some more answers in the next season(s), it's not like 2005+ doctor never had stories over multiple seasons right? :)
My personal theory is that rubys snow isn't a product of her uniqueness but instead was caused by the universe being fucked up by the flux. Basically wierd shit is happening because the universe is fucked. Like ruby turning into a lizard person during space babies
Weird shit is happening because Myths and Legends have power ever since the Toymaker got in.
It’s disappointing when any show starts liberally using red herrings.
I don't think the problem is red herrings as such, it's that the evidence makes no sense. If the show acted like the mother was important and put stuff in that was just coincidence then I think it could have worked. But Ruby could bring the memories of the past literally into the present, so how can she be normal
Yeh red herrings are fine as long as what causes them is still explainable when the truth is revealed.
It depends, no? There’s nothing inherently wrong with a red herring as long as the actual mystery is up to snuff. Which it wasn’t really.
We expected an apocalypse and they gave us Tuesday. Or I guess Sunday in this context.
But that’s what red herrings are for!!! You’re not meant to take everything so literally. Didn’t you hear they’re bringing MAGIC into the Whoniverse, which means they don’t need to provide any explanations to anything and you’re all silly if you DON’T GET THAT. You know, because magic! Edit to add /s even though I didn’t think I needed to
I really dislike RTD's writing when mysticism is involved. I feel like he doesn't bother explaining it, which can be fine for the actual mechanics of magic, but there's also no INTERNAL logic to anything that is happening which makes the conclusions to about half the episodes just stupid.
Same old RTD-flavored BS. I’d say this was even more of a cop-out than Last of the Time Lords’ ending, and that one had a literal reset button.
It’s genuinely sad that you’re so correct.
>Also, can no one die now? Sutekh being imprisoned by the other Osirans didn't stop death from being a thing. Sutekh represents death and has powers related to death and is called the "god of death," but death still exists without him. Just like the Doctor claims to represent life, but if the Doctor ceased to exist that wouldn't mean all life stops (that we know of 😉). So - yeah, people can still die now. >She was pointing at the signpost. What. I literally started cackling at this scene when I watched last night and I'm STILL cracking up over this 😂😂😂 I know it's supposed to be some touching thing that Ruby's mom named her but... *She was alone on the street and no one watching that surveillance video would be thinking she was pointing to name her baby.* Like, just go back to the church and leave a note? I just... Oh, RTD, I know you like to reach with some things, and it doesn't bother me at all, but THAT explanation was a stretch far beyond even my very flexible suspension of disbelief. Really, it just makes more sense that Ruby's mom was just pointing at the Doctor like "Don't follow me" and inadvertently ended up covering her face to where she became this huge mystery yada yada.
Maybe she was pointing at the doctor and she wanted her daughter to be named *15th Doctor*
Or she wanted to tell the world that her daughter's given name was Church... xD
She wanted to name her Road based on Ruby Road but the stupid social workers picked Ruby instead.
Yes! Naming your child Road is hip and trendy, and will make sure that when they grow up, your child will be streets ahead of all the other kids.
Charlotte?
She was pointing at the Tardis and she wanted her daughter to be named *Police Box*.
She was pointing a Sutekh because she wanted her daughter to be named Doggo Mist
She became a nurse so it’s not a stretch to want her child to be Doctor
Imagine if it wasn't The Doctor in that moment, and was someone else who took that moment literally. The big reveal would be Ruby's real name is Sign Post.
Little baby Stop Octagon.
Little baby Yellow Yield Sign.
They say "Give Way" here.
Little baby No Parking between the hours of 08:00 and 18:00.
I'll keep saying this, but dramatic cloak, dramatic pointing, dramatically leaving her child on the church porch, 2004, fifteen years old, poor home life? She was a chuuni.
I almost feel like they had a better reason at some point and changed it. Like, the CCTV footage of Ruby's mother was from a storage yard 66 meters away. Which is also 73 feet. And we get a whole explainer about the Tardis perception filter having a 66 meter radius. Idk what it might've been, and maybe they didn't either, they put those details expecting to have the story come together in a more interesting way, but they just didn't plan it all out? Or the script got butchered later? I mean hell, say the Tardis (being alive and aware of future/past events) consciously used the perception filter to hide the mother, knowing that it would lead to this timeline, where they trick Sutekh using the only thing he doesn't know/understand. Or hell, have them be like "why couldn't we see her" and everyone be like "idk" and then they get back in the tardis and there's just a "Bad wolf ;)" or something, basically the same idea as before but with GodRose setting those events in motion instead of the Tardis.
Right! With all the mentions of the perception filter range and 73 feet I was so sure Ruby was going to have been created by the TARDIS as a means to beat Suetek as Suetek has been using the TARDIS to create all those Susan variations. That would mean it was that connection to the TARDIS that allowed her to create the snow by drawing on that memory in time. It honestly just makes so much more sense than what we got that answered nothing
That was my theory too. Though I prefer Ruby's mum being a regular person, I wish there weren't so many red herrings because they don't make much sense with the final outcome.
I’m still not over the fact that she somehow found and chose to wear a giant floor length mysterious black hooded cloak…IN 2004. just wear a normal hoodie lol ffs
One that somehow magically obscures her face constantly, too. Imagine if criminals knew that kind of thing existed, it'd be an absolute mess.
didn't CoRR show a priest opening the door and picking up baby Ruby? maybe he was supposed to see her pointing to the road sign, despite them seemingly never showing him again in any of these supposedly key moments...?
Headcanon adopted! Along with the headcanon that the priest somehow intuitively knew WHY Ruby's mother was pointing at a sign!
"that's a lamp, that"
Ah yes, one of those specialist Anglican priests who can see around corners and through walls. I appreciate the effort in rationalising it but it's just a very symbolic thing with zero sensible reasoning. I don't mind that sometimes but when it becomes an entire running theme for a season, it wears thin.
I mean the priest is at that church all the time and is familiar with the area I’m sure he already knows what that sign post says without having to actively look at it
I feel a bit like Ruby’s mum just being an ordinary woman is both fine and disappointing. On the one hand building up the idea that Ruby’s mum is somehow this big important mystery only to pull the rug out from underneath the audience is a bit of a “haha, gotcha!”. On the other hand there were so many theories and speculation that I don’t think any answer would’ve been satisfying. I think it is an interesting look at the mindset of someone who is adopted. We the audience build up this idea that Ruby’s mum is important, because she’s built it up. Though they went for the Hollywood ending that Ruby isn’t rejected by her birth mother. The reveal though still leaves things not properly answered. Like why does it snow and play carol of the bells around Ruby? If there was an answer it was a bad one that wasn’t clear. Also the idea that a normal 15yr old in 2004 would’ve worn that cloak and hood and then points to a road sign to indicate to no one that she wants her baby called Ruby…was just so stupid and a laughable answer
I would have loved the « she’s a nobody » reveal if the show was more subtle. « She was important because we made her important » is a lovely sentiment, but it doesn’t work outside the show. We, the audience, thought she was important because the show kept telling us that she was for (almost) 9 episodes. And I still don’t buy the fact that a god of death that can literally find people through dead skin didn’t know who she was. That and all the unexplained things like the snow.
This a good example of making someone important through the writers telling us they have to be compared to making someone important by fan theories alone is The Last Jedi. I’m not going to get into commentary of if people liked the movie or not, even if they liked the twist or not, but TLJ did “they are no one” twist well. The only person the movie who cares about Reys parents are herself because obviously she wants to know why she was left. She doesn’t really put any great meaning into them other than who are they and why did they leave her. But the fandom goes crazy with theories that have literally no backing or hinting at in the movies and so when it’s revealed that her parents were (originally) nobody, it not only fits the theme of the movie (you don’t have to be born to a special family to be special) but also it wasn’t pissing on fans because the movies themselves never speculated like that…only the fans went crazy with speculation. But in these episodes of Doctor Who, they beat us over the head with “The mom is so mysteriousssssss”.
Wholeheartedly agree, I personally really like the Rey twist from TLJ (ignoring TRoS) and that’s what I had in mind when I said DW should have been more subtle. I know the community would have gone crazy with theories without the show screaming how important that character is, it would have made things so much more impactful. It doesn’t solve everything, but it would have been a start.
The Rey twist works really well because it moves Rey's character forward. She DOES care that her parents were nobody because it means she has to do this all on her own now. If they were important, then she gets what she wants and knows who she has to live up to, why she was left behind and where to go next. I don't hate the twist like others seem to. My mindset is simply, "Huh, so that's that then. Looking forward to next season." That being said, the answer to this mystery doesn't move Ruby's character forward. She doesn't care that her mom was nobody. In fact, it's almost a relief to her. Now she can just settle down. She'll be in the next season so they'll have to write new challenges for her instead of growing from the ones they've already established. And that's fine and I'm sure it'll even be good but I'm not sure if it'll be as interesting.
And if that's the case, wouldn't it stand to reason that other orphans, who also wonder who their mothers are and whether they are special, would not be caught by Sutekh because he would be too curious about who those people were, just like he was about Ruby's mom?
Yeah, I’m all for suspension of disbelief, especially with DW, but there were a lot of things that were stretching the limits of my tolerance. That and the pointing thing, it was beyond silly -
But if Ruby is just a normal orphan with normal parents then how was she able to make it snow? And how come Sutek a literal God not find out who she was? It feels less like a red herring and more like it was cobbled together. It feels like RTD didn’t know how to make the ending tie up all the loose ends and just went fuck it that’s good enough.
The snow makes no sense. I do like the idea that some things become important because we make them important (which they were trying to go for). But for that importance to extrapolate up to become important to Gods or the key to save the universe, the person who makes it important would need to have some ability or be that significant themselves. Which ties back into why it always snows. It feels like there is something more there.
Did we make it important, or did they force it as a focal point for nearly every episode. We had no choice but to focus on it because they made us. It’s one thing slipping Red Herrings in, I think it’s another to make them a focal point and then be like, oh she’s only important because you made her important. No, I didn’t, you did Russell. I’d have happily accepted Ruby as a foundling and Carla as her mom for her backstory if the show itself didn’t insist her mothers identity was important.
Exactly. I always felt so bad for Carla every time Ruby was making a big deal about finding her real mom.
Oh no that’s completely normal, all children have questions, it’s entirely natural and Carla understands. Given she’s a foster mom quite often too.
> Also the idea that a normal 15yr old in 2004 would’ve worn that cloak and hood and then points to a road sign to indicate to no one that she wants her baby called Ruby…was just so stupid and a laughable answer That bit pissed me off the most. I can deal with her being ordinary and some of the other flaws, but this really soured it as a build up. The whole cloak thing would imply someone special, different or whatever. Just have her wear a big ass poncho or something. Also, why would she point at a sign? Who is there to see it? That also was some bad misleading stuff. That one part was just so poorly written and thought out in my opinion.
I was 15 back in 2004 and I can say with some certainty than basically no girl my age would’ve gone out wearing a cloak like that. It was designed to be weird, mysterious and a bit otherworldly and doesn’t fit with “she’s a normal girl”.
I was 18 in 2004 and had a cloak due to LARP; can confirm that it was hard to get those (mine was sewn for me by a relative) and that they are not what you would wear back then to avoid attracting attention. Very much the opposite.
I *hope* there's more to it. Her mother being hidden was necessary to set in motion the events that lead to Sutekh's demise. Now, this season has been very meta (people breaking the 4th wall, even the Doctor) -- Assuming it's not a choice for comedic relief, there must be another higher level story in progress. I was expecting a meta ending where the writers are the Villain, or some Villain had taken control of the Doctor who story, in a literal sense, they basically control the script. If either of those are true, or even something similar, than another god, or a higher level being, could manipulate the story to hide Ruby's mother, (if they had some motivation to end Sutekh, perhaps they simply don't want all life to be destroyed, who knows). Could also manipulate the story so everybody (in the show) just accepts "guess we manifested her importance, oh well, let's not poke at this any further". Someone else said Mrs. Flood might be the God of Stories. Not many stories with everyone dead, so she would have incentive to kill Sutekh, and assuming she doesn't want to be discovered, has reason to manipulate the story to hide her involvement. Idk, hope there is more too it, but even if there is, very bold choice trying to re-vitalize the franchise and having /that/ ending.
It would make more sense if she was shitfaced when she pointed
Ruby's mother being no one important and nothing special about her would be fine... if they hadn't spent the whole season and finale showing how Ruby had all these special things around her, and the mother somehow being completely obscured in any visual of her, and so many other things that were absolutely, one hundred percent, *not* ordinary. You can't just tell people all kinds of stuff and then claim it was something else entirely. There's misdirection, and then there's outright lying to the audience. Putting all these mystical things around Ruby and her mother shows that there was definitely more to them. If the intent all along was for there not to be, then don't lie constantly in showing that there is. There's ways to try to build it up and then come back to "Oh, no, nothing extraordinary about them." But they chose to constantly *show* that there without a doubt *was* something extraordinary about them. At that point, you can no longer try to play it off like "We just thought she was special so she was!"
I'm so out of it because I'm sick so hopefully what I say makes sense. You're right. I wish they handled it like they handled Clara's impossibility. Same girl, in different places, different times. She's a regular person but worked it out and did something remarkable. The clues, in hindsight, made sense. We weren't misled. Souffle isn't the souffle. The souffle is the recipe. Oh my head
Mrs. Flood is most likely a god of Story. The whole season is a meta narrative that makes sense if you look at it from the eye of a God of Stories using the rules of story to alter things in the same manner that the Toymaker uses the rules of play. Who would be older than the Toymaker or the Maestro? The Storyteller. Who was using Ruby to ensure Sutekh wouldn't win.
I'm hoping so much that this is true. You can explain every logical leap if someone is making it like a story book. That was even hinted at in Space Babies with some outside force making a situation like a fairy tale. Hopefully this is part of the Christmas plot.
I also think there is a bigger plot going on with stories, and that this entire season is within it. It goes us a nice excuse for anything that doesn't quite work like the memory of Ruby's mum. As a fairytale ending to a story though it works. Her mum does exist, is alive, and wants to know Ruby. However, I'm not expecting a Christmas episode to conclude anything. I'm expecting another season continuing the Mrs Flood mystery. Maybe Mrs Flood is actually a Mrs Pond / River. And they're within the simulation in the library.
It could also explain why the bi-generation happened when the Doctor thought it was a myth (not sure they ever plan on explaining that tbh but it'd be nice if they did)
Big game of thrones finale vibes off this "Who better than the storytellers" *muffled writers room circlejerking noises*
Or by the current show runners riddle logic Rain makes Floods, Rain is an anagram of Rani so Flood is .... The master again.
Very well could be. My initial thought on Mrs. Flood in this Season 1 finale was that she was an older Clara. Mainly because when they were brought back she said "He figured it out, that clever boy." Which is something I seem to recall only Clara calling The Doctor.
The whit costume with the hood at the end was also a throwback to Romana who traveled with the 4th doctor. I don’t think the Clever Boy thin means she’s Clara. I think she just is referencing a few companions cause he character knows the Doctors history and is referring to it overall.
If she’s a god, why did she die?
Same reason the Toymaker could be banished. She's bound by the rules of story. She can tweak the story but she can't ignore it. Toymaker was bound by the rules of play. She's bound by the rules of story.
Literal DEUS Ex Machina
The thing that gets me about the pointing is, it’s already been established that when Ruby was originally left there in 2004, *the woman was not pointing*. Even when The Doctor came back to save baby Ruby from goblins, *no pointing*. It was only in Space Babies that his memory of the event changed, that time itself changed so that the woman suddenly started pointing at The Doctor and the TARDIS. And if the sign was behind the TARDIS, then she only started pointing after the box was there, meaning she couldn’t even see the sign she was supposedly pointing at? Methinks we need to apply Rule 1 here: The Doctor lies. Ruby’s story is not done, we have a whole extra season to go. The problem for me is how RTD has neatly tied this fake version of events up in such an unsatisfying way and left us to stew on it for months before we get the Christmas Special and Season 2, which will (hopefully) give us the real answers.
be wary of not getting into sherlock season four conspiracy theory territory
Omg yes I think he’s lying too! And I think the season is purposefully supposed to leave you with all these questions so we tune into season 2 As an overthinker though with all the themes of the season I think I can understand why it would just be underwhelming. We give value to things and go to war over them when they’re literally nothing. Our world leaders seem to bring death for seemingly nothing turning everything to dust to what end ? A part that struck me was when Mel was possessed and she said so you can reign over your kingdom of nothing. Literally who do you reign over once you have killed it all, killed all life. As for the bringing death to death I think it was just one of those well it’s a fictional show we need a happy ending and it was nice for me bc well I love it when big bads bring upon their own demise idk maybe it’s bc I grew up watching Disney stuff
I agree with everything you're saying. I think fans will be arguing over this finale until the Christmas episode. Although some things make thematic sense like "sometimes people are ordinary and that's fine" it very obviously lacks logical sense or in universe explanation. Some die hard fans are just gonna dismiss it with "Well that's how DW has always been" or "that's how RTD thematically writes all people" edit: its crazy that this post was buried until 8 hours after being posted and suddenly went from 0 to 70 likes in 2 hrs
I think part of why it's so frustrating that Ruby's mum is just normal is because the Susan Twist thing turned out to be a flop too. So you have these two great mysteries propelling the series, and honestly driving a lot of viewership,and they both turn out to be utterly dull.
Imo the reason it was so disappointing was because the show went *so* out of its way to tell us that Ruby is not actually ordinary, which makes sense thematically but not really logically. I was expecting it to be that she's ordinary but some god was involved that did something, not because every character needs to be special or have powers but because a lot of the season doesn't really make sense unless there's more of an explanation for it.Even something like the gods of life giving her a tiny power or shielding her from Sutekh would've made sense, whereas now I'm just like wait what did Maestro see in her
It's the false flags that are most annoying. There being something special about Ruby, pointing at a sign when the sign didn't exist in the memory, time changing in that moment, the snow, Mrs Flood.
This. Her mom being normal isn’t the problem. It’s literally that the show told us and repeatedly showed us that her and ruby are special and that there is a great mystery behind them.
Yeah like, this wasn't a "fans assumed something was going to be more important" thing, they pretty much explicitly stated it. Ruby being normal is only disappointing because of all the times the show implied that she wasn't!
Yeah I really don't care for the people both dismissing it as "something RTD always does" or "its always been like this". It feels really dismissive of his first 4 seasons. I only really had this same issue on some level with the Journey's End, but that had such a signicant emotional payoff and was just pretty fun that I could look past it. I think his first 3 seasons had pretty logical and satisfying endings though that intentionally wrapped themselves up pretty tightly. After a really fun first part, Empire just fell flat all around. A much more interesting twist would have been "Wait, she's totally normal and Ruby is just a regular human according to all tests... so what the hell is happening?" and then have that be the cliffhanger while the tardis groaning/sutekh stuff was the "main plot".
I don’t even mind the “DW has always been like this” stupid solutions to villains, my main issue is that they really overestimated how much we CARE about Ruby. I shed a few tears because Kate died but I’ve had zero feelings about Ruby. It’s like… why is the Doctor sad that’s she’s leaving? How did she change him? We saw nothing and therefore don’t care
> How did she change him? This one especially bothered me because he was talking about how she taught him about family, and it's like....no, that was the Nobles one regeneration ago. Y'know, the folks you spent years living with as a chosen family and who are *literally the reason why you aren't an angsty burnt out wreck.* It was really just not earned...at all.
And Amy and Rory who always kept a plate on the table for Christmas for him even though they didn’t know if he would come? We’ve had several moments where he was part of a family, and this wasn’t it.
Hmm I might be mis-remembering but didn't he say she taught him something about family he didn't know or consider before? If so then my take is to do with them both (at the start of it) were the same, orphans, with an unknown past / parentage. She strove to find her mum, went against the Dr's advice to not approach her in the cafe and was relentless in her need to find where she came from. The Dr doesn't look back, he keeps striding forward, hasn't looked into where he came from, or gone back for Susan - he is afraid of being rejected by his blood. Ruby showed he can have his current family(s) but can also go back and look in on his original ones.... Or something Edit-cleaning up autocorrects
Yeah the thing is that between the huge finale, 73 yards where the doctor is not there, another episode where the doctor is stuck on a landmine the entire time, we didn't really see ruby and the doctor do much travelling together right ?
I get that they did a few more adventures since when they showed the Susan variants there were a few we didn’t see in previous episodes, but nothing that shows us why they’re bffs. That Ruby was intriguing at the start with the goblins and the song and the snow and that’s why the Doctor stuck around (he was curious!), and THEN gradually developed this friendship, that I would understand. But “I saved you from goblins and you’re my ride or die now”? She doesn’t even know he had other faces!
If they'd put in some reference to someone like Mrs Flood being a story god like everyone theorises, and have that as the reason for everything being more narrative over logical, I would be 100% behind that. Hell, if the Christmas episode does that, it could repair a lot of the issues. I genuinely thought that was where they were going with it, it feels more magical and fantastical because someone is MAKING it that way. I hate to say it this way but right now, it feels like the only one making it like this is one Michael Mouse. Fingers crossed for Mrs Flood claiming it all at Christmas.
Apparently we won't find out who Mrs Flood is until the end of season two. And with the current writing, she is just an eccentric lady talking to pigeons just outside the shot.
I don’t think people would care overall if her mom turned out normal IF it was only the fans doing the speculations with no support from the actual show. The Last Jedi did something like this originally. Rey’s parents ended up being nobodies, but that was fine as a twist because in the movies they literally never hint that they are anything but parents who abandoned Rey for some reason. She wanted to know who they were because they had meaning to her, but the movies themselves don’t add any greater mystery to them. This show however does. The writers beat you over the head with clearly the mom is mysterious and important. Time is changing around her. Ruby can literally shape reality with snow and music. It makes ZERO sense that her mom is normal because even if ruby believed she was special that wouldn’t just give her magic powers and it wouldn’t make it so no one could see her, not even a god. Plus the memories of the mom change. It was just a cop out with RTD trying to be a self centered smart ass “Haha, she wasn’t actually special, all your fan theories were dumb, she was only special because you the fans wanted her to be special!!!”.
yea, the whole twist of this season was, that there was no twist. and i guess the "god of death" was a bad boy. wonder the doctor didn't spray water at him in the end. and the doctor thinking he is life now... did we forget about our past incarnations, and a few genocides on the way? that, dear sir and/or ma'am, is not the definition of life.
Oh but let's not forget. Next time someone you love dies just take a gun and shoot their dead body in the head cause death plus death equals life. It really was a ridiculously stupid solution.
It was established that sutekh was killing concepts like facts and memories earlier in the ep, so for me it made sense that he would be able to kill the concept of death as well
that wasn't set up nearly as well enough to justify the entire ending. Maybe if they didn't spend 45 minutes in Legend building up to nothing but Sutekhs reveal they could have given some more time to emphasize that ability.
I guess there isn't always a twist at the end
I agree with everything you said, but the bigger issue for me was that it was basically Rey's parents being nobodies from Star Wars + The Blip from Avengers. It felt utterly unoriginal.
The thing is, at least there wasn't a logical issue with Rey's parents being nobodies. At least that was plausible. Ruby's parents being regular people but having these special abilities and Ruby having special abilities is insane.
RTD said Rey's heritage being retconned in Episode 9 annoyed him, and was one of his influences for Ruby's mum being ordinary.
I really thought he was a skilled enough writer to realize WHY Rey's parents being normal people was a good reveal. Rey was set up as a force user with mysterious parents. Nothing suggested her parents were special, that was purely fan speculation. The reveal that her parents were normal was in part a smart commentary on Star Wars fans and their assumptions, but it was also thematically powerful and fit within the story which had been set up. Meanwhile Ruby's mum being ordinary solely comments on the fans, and it doesn't add up with the 8ish episodes prior at all. It's like he looked at Rey Nobody and said "I want to do that" on a whim, without realizing what made it work or why it was a good reveal. Midwit writing, I'm very sad to say.
“It solely comments on fans” When we only feel and think this way because the narrative explicitly told us to.
Moffat would sometimes go "get excited! get excited! something GOOD is coming!!!" and then yank the ball away last second. He'd do it in Sherlock as well as Doctor Who. RTD seems to have picked up the habit from him.
Rey’s parents being nobodies was a wonderful idea. It told the audience that anyone can be special regardless of the circumstances of your birth. I actually think it works here in doctor who and it is explained through a sort of paradox feedback loop. Let’s hope they don’t pull a RoS and Ruby’s mum ends up having a pocket watch at home.
Yeah, the thing with Ruby's mother was disappointing. It's an interesting idea that maybe could have been a decent episode, but not the culmination of a season long mystery. Especially since it doesn't really explain anything. I thought I read that the mystery of Ruby would span two seasons, so maybe there's more. If not, that was an unsatisfying answer.
I'm afraid further developments on what Ruby 'is' in S2 will come across as retcons now 😔 They really tied her up too 'neatly' this season. No satisfactory explanation on 73 yards or the snow, or the mum in the cloak changing in the doctor's memory. I cannot take the "pointing at Road sign" thing seriously. It's has to be a misdirect, please. Please? Ugh! This is one of my pet peeves by the way... shows that kneecap their own finale for the sake of "next season".
Final scene; Mrs. Flood on the roof with parasol and case. Mary Poppins, anyone?
I’ve been incredibly underwhelmed with this new season honestly. It just doesn’t feel like the Doctor to me; can’t quite place my finger on it, but something’s off (I’m assuming the writing)
For me, it’s a combination of two things. First is that there just hasn’t been enough time with 15. The whole thing’s felt so short and rushed. The other, is that there just aren’t many slow moments. 15 is all running around, dancing in night clubs, calling people “babes”, and crying every episode. It feels like such a departure from the character we know, for me. It’s a shame, because when we actually get those slow moments, we can see 15 shine. It’s like that moment where 9 talks about the turn of the Earth, or 10 telling Martha about Gallifrey in Gridlock, or 11 talking about Trenzalore to Clara in Name of the Doctor, etc. The show doesn’t give us a minute to breathe. It’s like RTD thinks the audience’s attention span is too short, so he needs everything to constantly be moving. So much of what made RTD’s first era so good is missing from this one.
It is the writing but I also think it's a combination of multiple things 1. Barley any time with the Doctor and Ruby: I STILL don't know their relationship to each other. It's like all they've said to each other this series is "omg so true bestie!" and that's it. They've barely argued, they've barley disagreed with each other, there's no real tension between them. Even 10 and Donna had disagreements even though they were the best of friends. Ruby apparently 'changed the Doctor' but it didn't feel like it in the slightest. 2. Ruby is just kinda bland?: I'm meant to care about Ruby but shown very little about her life outside of her being adopted and looking for her birth mother. What does she like? What does she dislike? What are her hobbies and interests? If the things I've listed were shown in this series, they've had very little impact on her character for me to care. It felt like every episode was her first because of how little we know about her actual life outside the Doctor. 3. The universe is very clearly wrong but nothing has come from it: I thought (and liked the idea) that we'd see more 'magical' things appear in the universe thanks to the salt in WBY, but nothing has come from it outside of the Pantheon of Discord. How can science fiction and fantasy live as one in this show? I'd have liked to have seen more of this but we didn't, we're still in this weird era of literally anything being possible with 0 explanation because 'magic'. Also Mavity still being a thing for some reason. 4. Too many plot twists and red herrings: Self explanatory. Way to many to keep up with and have satisfying endings for, as shown in the finale. Do 1 series long mystery and leave it there, don't shove in more just for 'viewer engagement' and forget about the story telling. 5. 8 episode series: Way to short to care about literally anything happening since you blink and it's the finale.
I like the season overall but I had the same thought yesterday - it feels like ever since Wild Blue Yonder and the more supernatural tone of the episodes since then, it hasn't really felt like Nuwho but more like 'Who if it was a Disney+ original' with that weirdly flat cgi feel to it. I went back and watched some series 3 and 4 episodes recently, and it made me see a lot of what's changed since RTD's first go.
What's off for me is the style of filming. We went from a very cinematic style in the specials to something where I am acutely aware these are people standing on sets wearing costumes. I sort of hoped it was part of the story, the way the breaking of the fourth wall was popping up.
As well as the writing, for me it was the acting, i dont mean to discredit the casts skills, they are quite good, but i feel as though it just didnt hit the mark. I think that to be the doctor, you have to be able to display feelings of deep anger. The previous doctors were extremely good at this, as though they have experienced it all themselves. But this doctor just seems to be shouting the words without the anger. It just seems all so basic to me. Every doctor has the big speeches, the quotes, but i just dont find the current one as uplifitng/angry as the previous ones. One thing i like about the past doctors is that they took the role and made it their own, they were the doctor, but i feel like this isnt as strong in this season.
It also just feels like the Doctor hasn’t been… around. I know there were major filming schedule conflicts but it’s still a major problem.
He's not fleshed out, he doesn't have the defining moment that other Doctors do - Tenant killing the bad guy at the end of his first episode, Matt Smith going from silly goose to extremely competent and intimidating in his first episode, Capaldi being a cranky boy... I don't have an example of Jodie's. I guess he's supposed to be a carefree version that has let go of the PTSD past but he almost seems extremely emotional and kind of inept? He's always frozen and emotionally reacting (his breakdown during the music episode about there not being anything to do, not being able to sacrifice Ruby, just looking at Ruby's mom and crying, etc), depending on others, not actually \*doing things\* except the wrap up for Boom... which was a stereotypical Moffat 'the doctor is suddenly super smart' ending. I also feel like they've gone out of their way to take the Doctor out of situations so it feels like he's barely in episodes at all - especially 73 Yards.
Yeah, the finale sucked. Absolutely abysmal writing. Everything was a red herring, I guess? Why not throw a deus ex machina in there as well for good measure.
Well, we did get a Deus ex Machina - There was a god in the machine...
Deus ex Rope
>They brought back the literal god of death for a single episode, put a leash on him despite his penchant for turning into dust, and wiped him out in one go with barely any fight. The Toymaker, who explicitly feared Sutekh, put up more of a fight. To me this is actually the worst aspect of the episode. He's literally not even an actual god nor functions like the actual gods, he's just a guy and the way he dies is very conventional (and poorly communicated). I TRIED to theorize that it was maybe Mrs. Flood behind it all (since, if she IS the God of Stories, then it would fit well with his whole "I'm a god!!" self-made mythology, but she was able to be killed by him). The entire premise for how he escaped just felt confusing and had too many implications. Did you even really need a big bad, really? I think a better story that brought back established concepts from the era would have been focusing on the instability of the Ruby Road point in time and how that is causing things to break down.
Yeah, everyone’s talking about Ruby’s mum, but for me, Sutekh, the literal god of death, being defeated by a bungee rope is a far worse offence. Probably my least favourite resolution to a villain in the entirety of the show’s history. In Pyramids of Mars, it’s established that Sutekh can destroy entire planets with mere thought. And we’re expected to believe he can’t get a bungee cord off his collar?
The biggest issue is he isn't even the actual god of death, and it doesn't make any sense. He's defeated like a conventional villain, he works like a conventional villain, and his main power totally relied on the Tardis (something we know doesn't even compare to the power of the actual gods who can manipulate it like its nothing). He's just an "evolved" psychic and while that would not normally be an issue the fact they've introduced actual gods and have all the gods fear Sutekh feels so... bizarre. It feels like its just Sutekh to be Sutekh, because they liked Sutekh. They never even say how he's "the oldest one", he's literally a million years old at best (and the other gods are from OUTSIDE of time and the universe) Whole thing felt like a waste and I really don't like how much this era has heavily relied on classic who things for no reason other then to have them. Was the whistle something from Classic Who? Why not say "he's not a real god, not like the ones we've faced, we can beat him" to establish that its possible to beat him via his own arrogance? Just feels soooo weird.
>Also, can no one die now? It would be hilarious if we get another Miracle Day event because of this.
I agree with all of these except number 3. The way they talked about death all throughout that episode made it quite clear that the death Sutekh caused was different from normal death. Exactly why having Sutekh in the Vortex alone would undo what he'd done before is incomplete, but I'll leave it to wibbly wobbly timey wimey, the Doctor forced him to exist at too many points at once and the universe corrected itself by getting rid of Sutekh. Don't get me wrong, it's not a good explanation at all. But there's no reason to assume that death in general no longer exists, or that anyone not killed by Sutekh should be back.
I don't think that sutekh is the incarnation of the concept of death, he is just a medium for instant death, which means he is as strong as the rest of the pantheon but can be disposed of as opposed to the literal concepts of games or music. Sutekh died when he was dragged into the vortex, and afaik when someone dies in or through the vortex they are basically erased across all of time and space, so yeah he killed sutekhs gift of death which just so happens to be the cause of death in all of time and space at this exact moment so you could say the doctor brought death to death because the people lived.
Why would she point at the signpost? Was there somebody there who would take note of the baby's name?
Well I agree in general I don’t think suttekh is the one who the toymaker feared. It seems like the one who waits is gonna be a larger thread related to Mrs flood.
Isn't Sutekh the one who waits? They made a big deal about how he waited on the Tardis since classic who. I think Mrs Flood will be revealed as the god of red herrings and being meta.
I think she is the gimmick leading to the Christmas special.
Flood said "He waits no more" so I think that she referred to Sutekh, but its crazy Flood knew about even Sutekh
Flood knows everything about everything. All hail the coming of the great Flood.
That would be pretty cool tho. Imagine throughout the show there were small hints to “The Great Flood”. Something devastating worlds or idk. That could also explain why it’s in the bible. Turns out, it’s not referring to an event, but Mrs. Flood. She is “The Great Flood”
Yup. And don’t forget it also exists to make the Memory TARDIS as a thing to justify Tales of the TARDIS
RTD came up with the idea for "Tales of the TARDIS" long after they filmed the finale episode. In fact, the original script had a scene where the Memory TARDIS was destroyed after taking them to 2046 but it was cut for budget reasons. RTD said he's glad they cut that otherwise he might not have come up with the idea for Tales.
Is that Tales thing something that can be streamed in the US? Also, I completely agree 💯 with OP.
It's All over YouTube
I’m only finding videos between 7 and 15 minutes long. Is Tales of the TARDIS just shorts then? I figured it would be re-edited episodes.
There are intros and outros with a classic Doctor and a companion as they are today. So older. After the intro it plays the whole story as I assume one long story. So each episode just flows into the next without cutting to the credits. On the 20th they released one with 15 and Ruby then showed Suktek's story from the classic era with 4. All the others though show a story from the doctor and companion that's in the intro/outro.
Tiny piece of trivia - I'm in the US and my local public television station used to play Doctor who every Saturday night - this was roughly in 1986. (It's how I just randomly discovered the show.) But that's how they showed it, edited together into one long story. It's kind of annoying to watch the classic ones now where they have the pseudo cliffhanger and the end credits in the opening credits and then repeat the last minute from the previous episode that we just watched.
Did they say what even happened to the memory Tardis? I kind of thought the plot would be that they use the memory tardis as a backdoor into the real tardis but instead the memory tardis just IS another tardis
The memory tardis existed because of the time window screen. Ruby broke the screen and the memory tardis was destroyed.
I have to say, I actually quite enjoyed this episode. I had more of an issue with the Ruby stuff than the Sutekh stuff though — it felt like a very “Doctor Who” way to deal with a pseudo-god. Tricking him to get close and then tying him to the TARDIS with effectively a leash because he’s a big dog and ragdolling him through the time vortex? I love it! To your point about the toymaker, I reckon that if they dragged him through the time vortex on a heavy duty bungee cord, he probably wouldn’t have lasted too long either. They just dealt with the Toymaker in a different way — they utilized his fatal flaw to their advantage. Sutekh didn’t exactly have a game to be played against him / exploit and win like Toymaker and Maestro had, so time vortex it was. Ruby’s situation did seem a bit underwhelming but I don’t mind characters being a nobody. The sign-pointing thing was a tad goofy though. Overall, I really liked it! Definitely one of my favourites of the season which seems to be an unpopular opinion…
Toymaker was able to travel through time with supposed ease and may even have some degree of control over it, so why would the Time Vortex hurt him? Also, vortex manipulators literally carry a person through the Time Vortex almost entirely unshielded and yet people can do it hundreds of times before there’s any side-effects.
The Doctor doesn’t represent life. He can’t. It ruins it for me. He’s The Doctor. The Valeyard. The Doctor of War. The Renegade. The destroyer of worlds. He’s a man who’s established a reputation of good and bad that monsters fear him. The Doctor is a monster and by no means a “good guy”. The Master is a psychopath. The Doctor is just not good. That’s their dynamic. The Doctor is a physical choice of right and wrong. He’s not good or bad. He’s just a madman with a box who values the progression of life over everything.
The Doctor has an ego size of the universe. In TLV, 10 literally started a crusade against death and he would have succeeded if not for 8 and 9 who demonstrated him how messed up it was. And he also was very emotional during his “If you represent death, then I represent life” burst. He is not a god of life, he was just trash-talking the dog.
Yeah, it was painful. Not long into the show my youngest asked how the doctor managed to get into stark tower - the upper floor of the tower was a source for the dust and had engulfed everything around it yet the doctor managed to reach Ruby… Move over space dobby I think we have a new winner!
This one was just like the Pandorica. No idea wtf happened, but i enjoyed the ride. That's enough for me.
Hard agree on everything. It felt like the episode was written by a bad AI, so bizarre and pointless from start to finish. I thought most of this season was really quite good and brought back the feeling I got from Tennant-era Who at some points, but that finale was a straight up 0/10. Really horrendous payoff on literally every front
I wish people would stop comparing bad writing to AI. No AI could replicate the occasionally bizarre logical jumps that RTD likes to take.
> really horrendous payoff But that’s what red herrings are for, don’t you know??? They don’t have to deliver on the payoff because it doesn’t matter!
A show literally telling me that mysteries are gonna have disappointing answers tells me to never get invested in any future mystery Compare this to the River Song twist that was staring us in the face the whole time
This is the problem with shows that try very hard to be unpredictable or to subvert expectation. Ok I was not expecting it, but this is litteral garbage. It makes no sense at all, this is juste a big middle finger to anyone foll9wing along and trying to make sense of the plot points and why they are happening. The snowing? Fuck you it doesn't matter The mother of Ruby? Fuck you it doesn't matter Susan? Fuck you it doesn't matter The whole point of 73 yards? FUCK YOU WE WON'T EXPLAIN ANYTHING about what this was about. The series tried very hard to be mysterious only to say in the end that there was no mystery at all all along. Very disapointing.
There's so much power creep that at some point every challenge the doctor faces just starts to feel underwhelming. If everything is more powerful than the previous time, but the doctor solves the problem by doing some twist at the end of the season, nothing really feels at stake.
If Ruby is totally normal and her parents were normal why does she have a song in her? What's with that?
I realized earlier that if i wanna compare this finale to the Bad Wolf reveal then it'd be like "Oh i guess we only saw Bad Wolf everywhere because our brains like to find patterns"
Honestly, it seems to me that Ruby's revelation killed the entire season. It's like the worst script ever written in history, why the hell do you raise the scenario so much and make it so difficult if the revelation is going to be so bad. It's a pretty big script error. It's not even an interesting twist, it's a: And somehow Sidious came back
Not even a whole episode, like half or maybe two thirds. The rest is the epilogue
Disappointing for sure that Ruby isn't special after all, but then again I'm glad she wasn't The Impossible Girl 2.0 When they mentioned the Step Father I thought he was Ruby's bio dad, and that's why she gave her up for adoption. Lol, but then I realized that would be too dark for a Kids show.
1) I know right? it's absurd. This should've been an actual two parter episode. Ruby road as the set up and then a double episode. Way too much was cut seemingly. I really cant understate how poor the ending was. So they remote activated the tardis with a whistle. Why didnt they do that sooner? They used a rope that literally fell out of a cupboard in the weird ass memory tardis along with the gloves nobody liked. And they defeated the most powerful enemy doctor who has ever seen. 2) Ugh, yeah i'm fine with this in general, but the execution was piss poor. There's been so many references to ruby & the mom being special. To just handwave those away with "we gave it meaning so it had meaning" was ridiculous. Wtf was maestro's song comment about?! 3) I hated this so much. It makes not even a lick of sense. People were literally turned to dust. "Death+Death = Life" is just stupid honestly. Wasn't even any timey wimey involved, just pure nonsense. 4) OMFG, this was just the nail in the coffin for me. No logic just emotional drivel. Emotional drivel is how i'd sum up the last bit of the story involving the mother as well. That entire segment took up wayyyyy too much for how little it impacted anything at all. Also want to add - THEY JUST DID A DNA LOOK UP. THATS IT. THATS HOW THEY FKING FOUND THE MOTHER. Ridiculous. The memory tardis & the time window were the driving force behind everything that happened. Led them to the mother, got them the "magic" whistle & rope. If they'd acknowledged it as the tardis helping them somehow it might've been better. But as it is, this just felt lazy and daft. OMG AND THE ENTIRE FKING SPOON PLANET. That ENTIRE segment MADE NO FKING SENSE. The memory tardis didnt have a spoon in it? or a bit of metal? SERIOUSLY?! I swear moffat must've been a ghost writer for this or something. 6/10 and i'm being generous.
I think the point with the spoon was they needed something real, everything on the tardis was 'remembered'. That said they couldve handled that issue better than introducing a random unknown planet with a new character I had no investment in.
Yeah totally. They mention it's low on power and everything so why go to a random planet for a spoon. Also I guess? Though the rope came from the memory TARDIS too and that worked fine
I feel like this story arc should've been spread over 2 seasons rather than one, especially with each season only being 8 episodes it's just not enough time. I also feel like the first 5 minutes of episode 8 should've been the end of episode 7, would've been a much better cliffhanger
Toymaker did not put up more of a fight smh. They defeated him in one episode by playing catch!
The whole series seemed like a bit of a mess and like they didn’t really have their heart in it.
RTD is and always was a hype man. More spin than Alistair Campbell.