I think that Thirteen is filled with good ideas and poor execution.
>Obviously it does have a bunch of meh episodes but the story has some highlights and overall carries really well, especially flux. Watching Flux in one go was really an experience.
I actually felt differently. Flux was like a rollercoaster of "wow, this is so cool!" and "wow, I have no idea what the fuck is going on and I don't feel invested".
It is absolutely a run that is hated more than it probably should be, but it's also... an extreme letdown and the overall decisions in the characterization of The Doctor and "the Fam" mean that even the better episodes are undercut by the way things feel. I never felt like it wasn't Doctor Who, and there are definitely moments where I feel like it was doing cool new things (hey, stuff is happening somewhere other than England!), but Thirteen just monologuing about the moral, and that moral often being underwhelming or even actively harmful, mixed with companions who got constantly undercut and felt like useless tagalongs for most of the run, it just... frustrates.
Yeah, I think the shallowness and inconsistency of the Doctor and the fam are a big part of it.
The stories were up and down in other eras too, but we had the characters to fall back on.
Debatably Twelve had some of the weakest stories and his era is still probably my favourite because Capaldi is great, his dynamic with Clara is interesting, and so is his later dynamic with Bill, Nardole and Missy. Even when the story is meh you enjoy hanging out with these people.
And RTD1 stories had their flaws too, but the dynamics of Nine and Rose, Ten and Donna, etc. more than made up for the weaker episodes.
That wasn't really the case with S11-13, though Graham did what he could.
Graham seems to consistently be considered the best character. But it's funny because he barely has much personality either, he's just got a fun attitude for someone you want to go on space trips. I saw the [Magic card](https://cards.scryfall.io/large/front/3/4/3467d66e-1a81-40d6-945a-f2c679d214d1.jpg) and then that run and it's like... oh, yeah, he pulls out a sandwich all of one time so that's clearly what his card should do. There's an entire episode whose plot is started by him clipping coupons in a space magazine to win a free vacation.
I feel like the emotional relationships started picking up with The Flux, but then it was bloated and you just have Yaz off leading her own crew whose adventures we barely get to see instead of actually interacting with The Doctor.
I remember him telling the Doc his fear of returning cancer quite clearly, something else that could have been growth for 13 but they never returned to it
OK, now you triggered me :) My similar pet peeve was Ryan's "disability" -- really, his difficulty climbing ladders and riding bikes is supposed to add character dimension and drama?
And all the drama is thrown away when his mates just tell him he can actually do it, and he just sort of luckily does. You just gotta try not be disabled!
Yeah, it's from _It Takes You Away_. The full version is:
>RYAN: You carry sandwiches with you every time you leave the Tardis?
>
>GRAHAM: Yes, well, I've learned the hard way, ain't I? I mean, we can go a long time without eating and I get a bit cranky with the old low blood sugar level. Now, I always come prepared.
The image is of Graham with his sandwich.
We're talking about this image?
https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=634504
He has a sandwich in his hand in that image. It does indeed look like the background from Kerblam! (probably the maintenance store). I'd have to rewatch the episode to see if he had a sandwich in that, or if they composited the image.
The card ability (produce food) suggests that's the quote they were referring to.
I think Graham is strongest in the first season where he’s just more of a complete person than Ryan or Yas
IMO 13’s best companion was Grace and I really wish at least the first season was just Graham and Grace with the Doctor, like a delayed honeymoon/three old people bouncing through time and space helping out
I honestly never liked Graham as a companion, the only reason I think people rate him is because he's played by Bradley Walsh.
Which I mean fair enough he's a charismatic guy, but watching him I never thought to myself "oh that's Graham the doctors trusted companion" instead it was always just "oh cool it's Bradley Walsh in doctor who "
I saw him more as "the group's dad that was coming along to vacation" and that's why he was great. I think he was pretty good in It Takes You Away as well, which is why it sucks that he got usurped and the plot became about The Doctor instead.
Put yourself in a non-Brit shoes whose first introduction to Bradley Walsh was Doctor Who and you can understand why he was so popular. Which is my case, I only knew vaguely of him beforehand but nothing more.
But for someone who only discovered him through Graham, it's easy to see how he became so beloved.
>There's an entire episode whose plot is started by him clipping coupons in a space magazine to win a free vacation.
This made me chuckle. 🤭 I agree on the up/down opinion on Graham. It's really funny in retrospect though that they really did base an entire script around Graham clipping up space coupons.
I think I enjoyed him as I did because his personality felt real, relatable, wholesome...and he seemed to feel he was in over his head often. Which was something as a viewer I cheered for him. However, was his role in stories believable to the plot?
Dan using a wok on a Sontaran was more believable than Graham defeating the Stenza.
Personally I'm not there with those two yet. Probably partly because it's been such a short run with two Doctor-lite stories. So far a lot of their dynamic seems to have developed off-screen.
Yeah that's valid. I too wish the series was longer and with more of the Doctor and companion's relationship given focus.
But I think in comparison to the "fam" I'm much happier with the TARDIS team dynamic than before.
I think 13, Dan, and Yaz worked as a much better team than 13, Graham, Ryan, and Yaz. Four people in a TARDIS team is too many (seriously there's a reason that when 5 was traveling with Tegan, Nyssa, and Adric, one of them was always getting kidnapped/lost and thusly "written out" of the majority of the action).
I'm only a very casual fan, but am I crazy that two parters seem to be few and fair between since 12.
Watching the most recent Who and even 13ths run, I enjoyed myself just fine, but it always felt like stuff that could've been a neat 2 parter ended quickly. Left development of companions and our doctors feel a little abrupt.
S11 was deliberately intended as a streamlined jumping on point so it had no two-parters and no returning villains.
In S12, 4 of the 10 eps were in two-parters.
S13 _(Flux)_ was a 6(!) parter.
In the new series (S14 or S1 depending how you count) 2 of the 8 eps were in two-parters.
What really turned me off about the moral thing was the episode where the aliens are literally killing people on earth and doctor tells the companions if they retaliate they can't travel with her. Like wtf...
Also her choice to lock all that spiders children in a vault to cannibalise each other and eventually starve to death rather than let the American with a gun put them out of their misery, because nothing is worse than shooting a gun, not even cruelty on that scale
You'll have to remind me about specifics. I vaguely recall her saying no guns, and that she was establishing the rule against robots for the future.
Also that was another thing, the enemies in that run had way worse shot than ever before, despite being super high tech assassin bots.
Yes, there’s quite a bit of inconsistency about the guns and violence thing over the entire Doctor’s arc. I recently watched a Pertwee (3rd doctor) episode where he shot a bad guy after unsuccessfully trying to beat the crap out of him. I was thinking wait…I thought the doctor didn’t do stuff like that…hmm.
For me it wasn't that I hated it, I just thought it was very... there. Its not like it had huge negatives, it just didn't have all that many positives.
You mentioned the fam - none of them got on my nerves like, say, Tegan. But they just didn't really add anything at all to the episodes.
And when there's 30 other shows that people have been recommending to you you have to be better than mediocre to be worth the time.
I also didn't hate it. I actually kept track of my thoughts after every episode and while I often complained about a lot of it—the Doctor being kind of mean, the companions always getting undercut, tension and explanations being often undercooked—I overall really liked it.
This was my main issue. Over a very long history of watching Doctor Who, some stories have stayed with me for a short while, some for longer, and some for a very long time, turning them over and over again, thinking about them endlessly. But with this run, I often found that just a short time after viewing, I couldn't even recall what the episode had been about. It was like there hadn't been anything compelling enough (positive or negative) to linger in my mind after the fact. It was just... there, and then gone.
Yep, I've always enjoyed 13s run.
I really enjoyed how chibnal did away with a lot of the "humans are amazing, look at you surviving and spanning the galaxy, you're so special" and had episodes where the monsters of the week weren't the "big bad" of the episodes. I know there were evil humans in 10-12, but not quite the same.
I was let down by the relationships and character development overall, but I have critiques of every era.
Moffat was great at one-off episodes and character development, but suffered laying the groundwork for major plot points. Like... Who is Mel? Oh, she's just Amy's best friend, always has been, here's a montage of their antics!! Never mentioned her before, but she's been there the whole time! I'm so mad at him for completely resolving river songs story line in one doctor.... She was supposed to have seen so many faces of the doctor, but nah.. it's gonna be all Matt Smith.
RTD like, ok... Maybe we don't need a 19 year old companion in love with a 900 year old timelord. And as much as I love the resolution of badwolf, just repeating a phrase (or face, looking at you Susan twist) in each episode is not really a story arc.
I've never fully watched the classics.. But like... Those are objectively pretty bad too.
Doctor who is a campy and generally low budget scifi show about a time travelling alien in a box that often solves problems by saying random futury sciencelike words. I don't know what people are expecting from this show
I'm frankly tired of all of the complaints all the fucking time. I'm tired of the new doctors bad and the old doctors are good.
There's episodes I like, there's episodes I don't in every season.
I like everything from Fifteen better. Say what you will about the logistics of the reveals, the Doctor-Companion relationship is better and The Doctor doesn't go giddy for space Amazon and not even comment on the fact that the entire system is jobless but still requires food tokens to eat.
> the Doctor-Companion relationship is better
How? We don’t see any of it. We just get told in the finale that Ruby is the Doctor’s best friend, and that she changed him. We don’t actually SEE any of their relationship.
I'm a fan of Doctor Who, I've watched it throughout even when I've not enjoyed it, and completely frankly 13s era was a mess. That doesn't mean it was all literally the worst thing ever, but in terms of writing it's absolute garbage tier.
Note that your laundry list of good things amount to the music, visual effects, and costuming/makeup. These things are definitely positives. The problem is that the letdowns are characterisation, development, storytelling, and an often very wonky tone to some of the episodes (looking at you Kerblam!).
I get it if you enjoy it, that's cool. But it's pretty terrible in those departments and that's no fault of the actors or the people doing the effects, music, or costumes.
I've looked into this and I think it's because of how Chibnall writes. He gives actors "big themes" to work with and kind of just lets them fill in the blanks. He did it on Broadchurch which Jodie was a central character in, (as well as David Tennant) and it's obvious she has the skill and ability to do a great job, but she was interpreting the weighty themes of losing a child, and that carries its own built-in emotional heft.
Doctor Who, by contrast, is limited to more vague or abstract problems. You can't have the emotional gut punch of a lost child, and spend time dwelling on that giving the actors the time and space to draw that out, because it's a fast paced show about space and time travel and you never spend more than one episode in the same place. Chibnall was just, imo, the wrong fit for Who.
Edit: I want to make this clear, I love the *idea* of 13 and I dearly wish her run was better. There's something in there that could have been really good with a bit more work. Also Jo Martin series when? She was absolutely *perfect* for the role.
>(looking at you Kerblam!).
Me starting the episode: ah yes Amazon the evil.horrible company yhat steals and overworks workers that is a horrible company run! Yes let's talk about this! Yes absolutely I can't wait to throw Amazon the shade and talk about it
The episode: actually it was one guy causing issues the company is actually great ans nothings wrong and they do care about you
Me: huh HUH
Agreed she didn't
But the episode seemed like it was going in the way ut should of been is that Amazon is an evil company and it went the actually no nothing wrong with Amazon! Only a bad person
13 is a great character by herself, let down by the scripts being a first-draft of a good idea.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Seeing 13 in a multi-doctor special a few years down the line is going to be *very* interesting.
Honestly I don't even think Chibnall was the problem. There are some good ideas in his scripts, they just don't come together. It feels more like he ran out of time than anything else. Its the production schedule that was the problem.
Hell, it wasn't even necessarily *bad*. It was just *generic*. And Doctor Who should never be generic.
i also just finished a rewatch and it was certainly better than i remember, but definitely still some of the least engaging DW we’ve had in a while. the spectacle was definitely there with some beautiful set pieces and great shift in music, but seriously some of the least characterized characters in any show i’ve ever seen lol. 13 felt like the most generic “doctor” performance possible, with little to no traits of her own. the gaggle of companions was also very lackluster, with many of their defining traits disappearing almost instantly
It could have been a really solid run if they figured out those damn companions. Just no chemistry between them, which is ironic considering they are the “fam” companions.
Ryan was so one dimensional and boring, but on top of that the actor was just trash. I mean that’s gotta be an all time worst performance for a recurring Doctor Who character. Every line delivery, every reaction shot, I wish I had nice things to say about him but I just don’t. He took me out of each and every scene.
Yaz was halfway to decent, but I also found myself constantly questioning what she stood for. Who is she as a character? They give her a backstory and conflict (conflict which is more real feeling than Ryan’s half-written fears), but the portrayal never feels full fledged. And then the doctor attraction was first forced and then abandoned.
Graham was a solid companion. He had a moral compass, he had some baggage, he stood for things that the actor portrayed well and it brought depth that the other two lacked. But it wasn’t enough to carry the whole fam.
Oh no! Ryan is in danger and has to do this thing that's incredibly hard for him due to his dyspraxia! How is "the fam" going to help him, accommodate to his needs and save themselves?
Oh right, he's just going to try very hard and luckily succeed this time! Remember, if you just try very hard when your life depends on it, you can get out of any danger regardless of your disabilities! We're very proud of you Ryan!
That in particular really annoyed me, his disability vanished when the plot called for it, and at the end he got over it by trying really hard. He got over his disability. What the hell. I assumed his arc was going to be about people making accommodations for him and him learning to accept help with the things he can't do because there's other things he can do.
13 is a delightful character that is well acted. She also feels like a first draft of what 15 became: “The first Doctor that is happy and well adjusted”.
We have no real highs, lows, personality flaws or signature strengths. She’s just… the Nice one.
During Flux, we got hints of seeing more sides to her. When Yaz says 13 never says anything “real”, and 13 angrily says “Haven’t we been having fun!?”. It gives the impression that 13’s kindness is a perpetual changing of the subject . I’d like to have seen more of that.
In short, I really, REALLY want Big Finish to get Jodie Whittaker. They could make incredible things happen with them.
Avoiding talking about real things isn't a character flaw? Lol
13 went out of her way to make everything just fun fun fun and avoided anything like dwelling on horrible things that she can't change. It's like she avoided these things out of fear and couldn't get close to her companions as if another Bill situation would happen.
She definitely isn't happy or well adjusted, she has a very harmful defense mechanism preventing her from having meaningful relationships. Her era in addition to all the NuWho eras up to the end of hers are exploring the Doctors changes post Time War and the toll it took on them, resulting in 13 eventually then 14/15s conversation about working through their trauma.
It's honestly one of the things I like most about her era, her and Yaz have really good scenes where they almost have conversations with their eyes about it.
Ryan and Graham... Not so much.
It's not lol. One or two people liked it when it was coming out and one or two people are defending it now. Our emotions over it are becoming less raw, but that doesn't change how fundamentally and objectively awful that era is.
When people ask me who my favorite doctor is, I always say the current one. My current favorite doctor is Gatwa because the best is yet to come.
I say this because I am absolutely sick of the roller coaster where everybody trashes the current season and then goes back and watches it later and says hey this is pretty good.
It always happens. And I don't know why. People did this to Capaldi for God's sakes. How could you do this to Capaldi? And Matt Smith. Loved him from the start.
It's really important to embrace change. If there's one lesson from this show that's what it is. Life goes on. The only thing we can be certain of is change.
And the best is definitely yet to come.
i think the reason it go so overwhelmingly hated because if you thought it was bad when it was coming out, then youre going to be frustrated and get increasingly more annoyed for the whole 3 seasons because you have to sit through it while it's new. even mediocre-to-occasionally-good episodes can make you more mad because you dont believe it can maintain that.
i will say while i dont like \*most\* of thirteens episodes barring a small handful, now that its not what we're waiting for every week, its not as offensive/aggravating.
I generally think it wasn't the worst thing ever, but it was fairly weak.
Akinola had some incredible ideas like the new Cybermen theme or the main titles, but I feel like the moment to moment music was really unremarkable.
The characterisation was really weak. Yaz being a cop, Ryan's dyspraxia, basically vanished after their second mention. S11 set up Graham as being grieving, then the finale cast Ryan as the one wanting vengeance? Captain Jack returns then leaves off screen? The doctor disobeys Jack's advice with the cyberium then just sidesteps the consequences because the master is more important than the Cybermen, I guess.
The cinematography is fantastic though
The cinematography was not fantastic, it was often very sloppy, poorly lit, lacking creativity with awful stiff blocking.
What you’re noticing is merely the fact they used anamorphic lenses, which give a more stereotypically “cinematic” look, but the Series itself is shot so poorly.
>Akinola had some incredible ideas like the new Cybermen theme or the main titles, but I feel like the moment to moment music was really unremarkable.
So unremarkable that I honestly can't remember any of it. It was just ambient background noise.
Biggest problem for me was 13's apparent disregard for her companions. Been watching these for the first time with a friend while we waited for each new Ncuti episode but the final nail in the coffin for me was Graham. He was open, he was vulnerable, he was trying to have a conversation with the Doctor and she just completely disregarded his concerns and fears. I know it was the writers trying to make an MCU style joke ("I'm still quite socially awkward so I'm just going to walk away") but it was a terrible display for the character.
That paired with the fact that she never seems to actually trust her companions with any information (not telling them she's a Time Lord or even what regeneration is despite it being a big deal and may come up in adventure). As many have said, there's good ideas but bad execution.
The Master and The Doctor both regress heavily from their respective character arcs in Tennant and Capaldi's era, the biggest offender being the Master's entire arc being thrown away (despite how fun Sacha Dhawan can be), he seems like an earlier regeneration.
I enjoy Jodie in other shows (she had some great acting in Broadchurch) and Chibnall can write some fun episodes (albeit they always involve countdowns and running down corridors lol) but it seems he couldn't handle being show runner and Jodie just couldn't be the Doctor without proper direction, proper writing.
There are fun parts of her run, although the greatest thing to come from her era is Graham. Forget old Doctor's coming back as new ones, bring back Graham! Loved Bradley Walsh.
It’s fun seeing the new show runner cycle start as soon as opinion on RTD2 wavers the slightest. Not saying you’re wrong but this sub is becoming nostalgic for chibnall the same way moffat went from formulaic and boring to messiah after series 11 and 12 flopped.
Not gonna lie, really not a fan of these “this is over hated” type posts.
Seeing that a lot of people share an opinion and then deciding to tell them that they’re all wrong because you disagree is just kinda odd, in my opinion.
I agree, so long as you extend the sentiment to the sub's longstanding habit of saying swaths of the fanbase who enjoyed Thirteen as her episodes came out were lying or wrong because they liked it for bad reasons.
Exactly. You couldn't--and as we are largely seeing play out here, still can't--say you genuinely enjoyed 13's run!
Even if you are ready and willing to banter about the flaws you saw, those get morphed into "it was unwatchable because of x" rants instead of just problems. Made it incredibly tiresome to bring up Chibnall.
But the Moffat fans did get to have their "first time?" moment lmao
I felt the same way when I went back and watched it. Initially I just gave up on the show and didn’t watch more than like five of her episodes, but a couple years later I rewatched from season one and gave her another chance. I liked her a lot the second time around. I still wouldn’t rank 13 above 9-12, but I’ll agree I think it’s a little underrated. A lot of the criticism is fair, it’s mostly subjective, but yeah I found it enjoyable.
I didn't hate it. She's a great actor, and Yaz was a great companion. (I was also a big fan of Bill, though, so my opinions may not be popular.)
The biggest issue I had was the writing. It was inconsistent, with dialogue that sometimes felt almost satirical. The thing I love about the show is that there's a mix of individual stories, woven into a season long story arc. Whittaker's Doctor felt like stand alone episodes with a story arc tacked on without much thought or respect for the source material - like it was an obligation rather than a goal.
This season has been the first time in YEARS that my wife and I talked about the episodes, speculated about the mysteries, read fan theories and got *invested.* This is the first time in years that we've felt the need to *avoid spoilers.* (Yes, I'm aware the finale fell a little flat.) That mix of stand alone episodes all tying into the bigger arc was there in a way I haven't felt since Matt Smith. I mean, I LOVE Peter Capaldi, and the single most memorable thing in his entire run as the doctor was... Michelle Gomez becoming the absolute embodiment of the Master.
I mention Capaldi because he's proof that the best acting can't overcome disorganized, inconsistent writing. In 5 years, I'll know who Ruby is. I'll know Amelia Pond and Rory. I'll know Clara, and Bill, just like I remember Rose, Donna and Sarah Jane. Sitting here, just a couple years since 13, her companions were Yaz... The guy who lost his wife, his step son who sometimes had balance issues (unless he inexplicably didn't that week) and the generic replacement guy. 4 companions, and 3 of them were utterly forgettable - at least, to me. And villains? After Michelle Gomez, we get a version of the Master that just rants like a comic book bad guy in an almost cartoonish way - like he could turn around and scream "Harry, did you put your name in the goblet?!?" at any second, for no reason, and I'm not sure I'd have noticed.
Those episodes aren't *bad,* by any means - but I'll be dawned if I can remember any of them... like, a dude with teeth getting a lecture about guns? Maybe? That's why people don't like 13, I think.
Totally agree about the current series. It's the first time in years that I've rewatched episodes before the next one is released and the first time in years that I've come on here to look at post episode discussion threads.
I've layed in bed awake trying to work out a plausible explanation for 73 Yards (and failed).
I've probably not been this invested since DT's original run.
Overhated? Sure
Underrated? Nah. Most of the episodes are REALLY boring and uninspired. Hate is a very strong feeling towards the kind of episodes in Chibnall's era (except the Timeless Child arc) but they're still low quality writing, direction, acting.
Look it wasn't horrible but it was definitely lacking. The biggest issue was Yas and Ryan being boring AF. At least Graham had some personality.
And the doctor never had her I am the Doctor moment. She can't do scary. At all.
Jo Martin was amazing and I wish we had more of her!
The main issue is that the writing for Jodie's run seldom had much depth. Previous showrunners would take a single idea and then push it as far as they could to see what happened - "Blink", for instance, was based on a short story in a Doctor Who Annual in which a young Sally finds messages to herself in some old photos. There were no Angels in it; just the Doctor stuck in the past and needing her help, and knowing about her because she would tell him in her future (and his past). Or what about "Midnight"? A tight and genuinely creepy story that feels like something Quatermass might have encountered.
Jodie's run was stuffed with ideas, and none of them were given much room to breathe. As a result, plots end up with a mishmash of different ideas thrown together without much linking them together. In her very first story, for instance, Ryan encounters an alien spaceship that basically gives him an EULA to sign - which is a neat idea, and could have been the start of a decent plot in itself, but makes no sense in connection to anything that Tim Shaw is doing.
The final story of the first series was even worse - we have LOADS of ideas in there. The Ux; superpowered beings who come across as a bit bland and stupid. Tim Shaw is back, and he's... collecting people and putting them in cold storage? He's also collecting planets (a plot right out of "The Pirate Planet" back in the 1970s, even down to having them all stored in miniature form in a vault somewhere). There's a deadly field on the planet that drives people mad, but fails to affect anyone during the course of the story even when their protective macguffins go wrong. Any one or two of these plot strands could be developed into a great story - but here they're all just thrown in and largely ignored.
*Flux* is the biggest example of this plot thread insanity. We have so many villains that they don't even all get the chance to do much. The Grand Serpent is wasted. Swarm and Azure are fantastic, and criminally underused. Division turns out to be one woman and her Ood on a spaceship (with a big tree in it for some reason). The Temple of Atropos is threatened, and then saved - but none of this has anything to do with the flux itself. There's a whole race of dog-people who are bonded to humanity, a concept with so many avenues to explore it could be a whole series in its own right, and they all die off-screen and are promptly forgotten. There are time tunnels under Liverpool, and nobody seems to know how they got there or what relevance they have beyond resolving a plot hole. There's even a whole section in which Yaz, Dan and Professor Whatshisname go gallivanting through Earth's past to... I don't entirely know what they're doing. It all proves completely pointless, anyway.
Loads of great ideas, but all rushed off and none of them explored properly. I still can't stand "Ghost Monument" for being such an enormous missed opportunity. It's supposed to be a race on a deadly planet! What we actually get is a gentle stroll through some tunnels!! Give us several other racers, let some of them die to prove how deadly the planet is, and most of all *don't just rejoin the regulars again after two minutes*. The whole "we don't know if the others are still alive" shtick is a major dramatic beat! Why not keep that up for the whole episode??
Nope it was 100% worthy of every bit of distain and hatred I hold for it. I generally try and forget it happened considering it was the era that made me give up on doctor who.
Do you know how miserable it is to realize your favorite show is no longer making you excited but unhappy? It got to a point where I had to ask myself why am I forcing myself to watch this? It isn't fun.
The stories were boring and preachy the only likeable character was Graham and that was due to Bradley Walsh and I was never once convinced 13 was the doctor.
The music sounds like background ambiance stuff you'd find for studying on YouTube at BEST I don't think I ever noticed it the way I did with gold and it certainly never added any emotional weight and the opening titles look like a toilet flushing.
If you like it then that’s great, and more power to you.
I’m not saying this to be controversial - I’ve given 13’s run a chance on three separate occasions.
It’s just terrible.
It should be good. The showrunner helped make Torchwood so it should’ve at least been that level of character writing….but nope - each character is shallow as a puddle.
The dialogue is so clunky.
The arcs of characters get shat on - Spy Master coming after Missy redeeming herself.
The doctor lost all sense of what made him interesting in NuWho, where was the darkness or the old eyes in a younger person’s body? Gone.
Don’t get me started on the timeless child stuff.
Or killing off Gallifrey again (ruining a decade long arc of the Doctor fixing something that’s haunted him for a 1000+ years.)
I’m watching it again myself. I barely remember most of it but I’m definitely enjoying it. It does have its problems, but I don’t think it’s terrible.
And I have to admit, I think I’m enjoying it more than I enjoyed the most recent season.
I await the downvotes.
I am exactly the same - don’t remember a lot, I know I wasn’t that enthusiastic at the time, despite having been thrilled about Jody being cast. But rewatching it now at the same time as the new series, 13’s run does feel more enjoyable somehow. I will go as far to say I even prefer the writing.
Yeah. The new series felt like it had a different tone and pacing. I’m still working my way through my thoughts I guess, but it’s just different, and I’m not sure it’s for me.
The stuff with UNIT was my least favourite. All very quippy and expositional. And more than Doctor Who usually is…which is already quite a lot. The older seasons had a lot more time to breath as well. Lots of slower paced character moments, and I’m loving it.
A lot of people seem to like it, and I’m happy for them. Just not for me I suppose.
Depends. Her first series had so many misses compared to hits. I think that coloured a lot of people's perception for the rest of the era. I didn't mind the other two series for the most part but they still have their stinky moments.
This is just an ouroboros cycle.
Season 1 comes out, and it's hated.
Season 2 comes out, people say how actually season 1 was better than this new season 2.
Season 3 comes out, people say how actually Season 2 was better than this new season 3.
I remember during Capaldi's initial run, people hated his low points and said how some of his episodes were the worst thing ever.
Then Jodie's era dropped, and people hated on that era and talked about how actually Capaldi's wasn't so bad and how Jodie's era is the worst.
And now, Ncuti's run is on air and people are repeating the same thing about Jodie. Give it a few years and people will be like "Actually, Ncuti's era is overhated, I like it more than \[16th doctor's current run\]"
On pretty much every fundamental level of storytelling and scriptwriting this era was beyond abysmal. I genuinely don't know how a series where a majority of the recurring characters have no character traits can ever be referred to as good. If it hadn't had the Dr who name it wouldn't have survived a season.
I see these posts trying to rescue chibnall's reputation and I can't help but think people need to learn you're allowed to enjoy bad things. You don't have to persuade everyone else it's actually good, you can just watch it. It's very freeing.
While I do think people need to marinate w the new Doctor before denouncing them or professing their love I still think 13 was abominable. I believe I’ve watched the season 2 1/2 times now and all of my runs I stopped only so many episodes in and had to take a break bc it was just SO BORING. It felt like someone who doesn’t like sci-fi or fantasy, making a bad and boring version of what they think Doctor Who is. I watched Who as a kid and remember loving Tom Baker. Then I loved Eccleston and was really loathe to see him go, but Tennant was so good it really didn’t matter. When Matt Smith’s season rolled out I thought it was awful, I thought he was too goofy and I hated Amy. I still found the run very watchable and even loved some of the episodes. On a rewatch I realized Smoth’s was all good (except Amy, still don’t care for Karen G as an actress). Capaldi was AMAZING and I loved his whole run. Not 💯 on some of the Nardole stuff, but whatever. Needless to say I’ve watched and rewatched all of these seasons so many times over. I won’t watch 13 again, it’s horrible and boring and I just can’t do it.
People in this thread are doing so. Although I don't know if it's personal preference or just normal "Old good new bad".
Even while liking 13's run and thinking 14's run does have a couple of major problems, I also cannot see how people can like 13's over 14's unless they're misremembering the bad episodes and only focusing on the handful of good episodes
Oh I can see it on thread, I just don't understand it. 13's writing was *absolutely terrible* in terms of plots, and mostly characterisation, and most of the actors weren't high caliber enough to compensate for the writing to carry it.
And yeah, 14 still has problems, but nothing near as offensive as 13.
To Me it's just the fact that it commits the cardinal sin of any show, but especially Doctor Who: it's boring. You have a show that can be literally anything and somehow you make it boring? Say what you will about Moffat or RTD, I was never bored for more than an episode or two. Whereas the Chibnall era, imo, consists *mostly* of boring plots, boring characters, and boring arcs. I quit watching the show for a bit during this era, not because I was outraged, but because I was so unengaged that I lost interest
>New visuals, a great title sequence, Akinolas music gives me chills and the locations, sets and makeup are a whole new level
"Guy's 13's era is overhated. These aspects of the show that it is unanimously agreed to be pretty good during this era are good. I'm not going to mention the abysmal writing and character work, the two issues this era is mostly criticised for and two incredibly important aspects of the show, because then you'll remember that this era is pretty bad."
I haven't rewatched S11 in a long time but I remember finding it dull, and a lack of a series arc really hurt it. I also remember the finale feeling like an ordinary episode. I'll give it another go soon, but I got so frustrated by the time of Flux that I have bad memories of it.
I'll give it another go soon.
After a recent rewatch, I've enjoyed it more than I expected. Some of it ironically, though less than I thought. The issues are still... glaring... impossible to ignore... BUT, it's fun and occasionally gets a laugh out of me! S11 is marginally enjoyable.
Can't wait till my S12 rewatch.
Whenever a show is current it is under intense pressure, it has to be the best of the show because if it's not then "New show is bad!"
Once a show is no longer the new show it is almost allowed to flourish more, to find it's audience.
There's a lot I don't like about 13s run, I think the Timeless Child stuff stands out as particularly bad not just as a story but as something that the shows own canon has to grapple with- But I would say that people let that often overshadow a lot of the cool stuff of Jodies run.
And seeing Bradley Walsh on Doctor Who was just fantastic.
That’s the thing. I could not list much that happened in that era at all. I remember there were some really great scenes, and some great dialogue, but the stories themselves were not good. And if you wanted me to list those scenes I remember as being good, I simply no longer remember….
13 just wasn't fun for me. You gave good points, the CG. Music, Costumes, just everything was ramped up, but every bit of story telling felt like a letdown.
The decision to not include classic villains until much later left some hollow spots. The boiling down of almost every story to being "humanity bad" just felt rough. Like we've had human bad episodes before, but they usually also had a spark of hope or good from some other human element but that felt absent for most stories. I longed for a goofy episode to break it up. Or just an actual abstract horror villain but it felt like every monster got excused and was just a product of a bad human. Maybe I'm miss remembering I took about a 4 or so year break from the show following season 12. Only just watched flux last week and seeing the specials now.
The TARDIS felt crowded with a bunch of people who were longing to be developed but there wasn't enough screen time for every one of them AND The Doctor to have their day. It almost felt like a special where they bring 2-3 people but we didn't have a developed companion to stand on their own.
Flux was great for that since we finally got to develop Yaz more. But it should've been done in season 11. I would've loved Graham and Ryan to fill a more Wilf and Mickey sort of role to the series.
Jodie was fun, I loved her Doctor. I just felt the series suffered with so much that I wasn't having fun. Luckily I'm having fun again with Flux and the Specials, so looking forward to the next season.
I'm fairly new to new DW. Started at Xmas and just finished all of the episodes of the current era (Eccleston - Gatwa). I used to watch the classics on rerun with my dad growing up, but definitely don't have my head around all the lore like some folks. That said, I really loved Whittaker's portrayal of the Doctor, despite the mediocre-at-best writing of Chibnall's run. I hope that we see her again under another showrunner to give her the opportunity to really shine. I want closure for her in a few areas and I just really loved seeing the doctor as a woman.
Flux fell apart and had a lot that didn’t make sense, partially a result of COVID restrictions for filming and also Chibnall isn’t a good writer. There were very few standout episodes in this era. Yaz was a horrible companion. Worse than having episodes with bad endings, were so many boring episodes.
I’m not going into specific episodes, and there were some I actually think were pretty good, but as a whole the writing just wasn’t there. But also, I don’t think he ever wrote a standout episode when RTD and Moffat were running the show.
While I like Jodie, I’m also not sure if she was a good choice. Something about her performance would tend to fall flat, not all the time of course, but she lacked something, like she was on the cusp of being really good but she never quite made it.
Yeah I’ve been rewatching it lately and I’ve been really enjoying it. I don’t see why it gets so much hate either. Just like every season of NuWho it has its bad episodes and it’s good episodes. I’m currently about to watch Ascension of the Cybermen and I’m looking forward to it
He has dyspraxia and is afraid of spiders. Two traits that *definitely weren't* informed through dialogue or side scenes and then mysteriously absent when they would have been relevant to a story.
He's closed off from everybody after Grace's passing for most of Series 11. Traveling in the TARDIS helped him be more open with his friends and Graham.
Ryan is to beige what beige is to us.
Edit: perhaps should go a little more in detail, Tosin Coles performance was very flat and monotone all the time,now if he was told to act that way idk but the end result is what it is. Couple that with lackluster character development and it just doesn’t work.
In the beginning he has NO interest in calling Graham any sort of familial name. At the end he's calling him Gramps and actively recognizing the relationship they've cultivated can be their own, and they can help each other grieve and remember Grace. Thats a huge change in his vulnerability and willingness to be open from the start of season 11.
He cares about his best friend and helps him realise he needs help with his mental health and gets him to go talk to a group of people who understand what he’s going through
Personally, I don’t like her era one bit. There’s like maybe 2-3 stand out episodes that I wouldn’t mind watching again, but otherwise it’s a hard no. Especially with all the canon changes like the Timeless Child. But if you enjoy it, I’m happy for you.
I agree. Upon initial watch I wasn’t too fond of her run, but after rewatching all 3 of her seasons I found myself enjoying them a lot more. I’m still not too fond about flux but her first two seasons are really solid and a fun watch. I think I may have put a lot of expectations on her initially which kinda ruined the fun but after a couple years I was pleasantly surprised. Online sentiment can also easily influence people into thinking it’s worst than it is imo
Yeah, I completely disagree. I agree that, at the very least, Series 11 is experimental (though this is mainly the natural effect of having a new showrunner with a different vision) but that doesn't necessarily make it good. I'd argue Season 1/Series 14 is far more experimental intentionally with much more meat on its bones to be interested in past 'it's different'. There is the occasional good shot or generally better lighting/sets, but TBH I actually really hate the visuals as they are just incredibly ugly looking at times.
The vast majority if not the totality of the era is just very poorly written and poorly performed, even the "big making your mark" episode of the era (Timeless Children) was a shallow exposition dump that relied on the next showrunner doing anything with it. My friends and I tried to do a big rewatch of the era together but we had to stop halfway through Series 11 because it was incredibly boring.
I agree, there was some great stuff to come out of Jodie's era and I enjoyed the new visuals, locations, make up, costumes and music.
My issue with the period is that it introduces a bunch of ideas, and they almost never go anywhere or have consequences.
A few off the top of my head:
Timeless child for example... why introduce it? What did Chibnell do with it after the big reveal? It was basically dropped immediately after.
The romance between the Doctor and Yaz. They knew Jodie was on the way out by the time they introduced this rather suddenly with no foreshadowing. They both say "I love you" then nothing. It just didn't seem to be mentioned or followed up again.
Flux - Half the universe is destroyed. There was no consequence to this and was never mentioned again.
I watched the first half of her first season before I gave up, then waited until this year and forced my way through the pain to watch all of it.
I can't exactly tell you why I hated it because I have forgotten everything about it already, that's how memorable it was.
Please, in any amount of words you like, explain to me how 13s run is well written.
Ryan has no character. Not at all.
Yaz is essentially Jodie two. No personality beyond that.
Graham carried the show. Hard.
Jodie………it’s tough. She has flashes of brilliance but she never seemed to nail down exactly how she wanted to play her doctor, especially in season 1. That inconsistency definitely put people off early doors.
The timeless child stuff is aggressively poor writing and has damaged the canon going forward.
Rosa was a downright offensive episode. Kerblam! Was also a bit of a pisstake. The best episode of her entire run was her first one, and it’s at best a 7.
I just really didn’t enjoy it. I enjoyed /her/ but didn’t like the actual content of the episodes if that makes sense. I did LOVE The Power of the Doctor though. I just wasn’t fond at all of the episodes myself. There are for sure some good ones like Demons of Punjab and Rosa but they are outliers in the grand scheme of her run sadly.
Series 12 had a decent-pretty good stretch there in the middle, but on first watch I thought A) it wasn't \*that\* bad and B) It still wasn't all that great.
I agree with this. Honestly, my biggest issues with the chibnal era have continued on in the latest series, especially the lack of development and forced intimacy. I at least felt like 13 had to earn the trust of her fam, and there were slower moments where I got to see into their dynamics. With 15 and ruby, much as I think they've done a great job acting, I felt like all the bonding and connection was relegated off screen.
I agree. We’re in the minority. But I nearly walked away at the mess that was Clara’s last season,Bill, Capaldi and the ridiculously “look at me I’m clever” hard work of Moffat’s writing. I got back with 13 what I was there for. Fun stories with a great cast. I really liked it.
I think it was a combination of changing the Doctors gender which offended a lot of people, and Chibnall was just really uneven in his handling of the show. Also Jodie Whitakers Doctor seemed kind of silly and never really put across a deep abiding alien intelligence the way Capaldi and Smith did really well.
I liked Whitaker a lot in Broadchurch and I had super high hopes. I'll admit I cut her a lot of slack for the first season or so. But in the end I'm not sure if it was Chibnalls showrunning, Whitakers acting or just the blonde hair but I don't like her Doctor.
She had kind of a "Gee whilikers kids lets go learn about DINOSAURS this week!" vibe to her portrayal. When she came down to earth to be serious it never came across as serious to me, but just a normal person being normal. Not OMG we might all die serious.
That said there were good stories. Demons of the Punjab was great. I even liked some parts of the whole Flux thing. Actually most of it until the final episode. btw did you know Swarm was Sam Spruell. The undead mercenary guy in a kilt from Fargo? Blew my mind!
The previous series with the timeless child is where Chibnall earned all his hate. That was a pretty big retcon. And a lot of folks, myself included, don't like the Doctor being made into a superhero. I think Jodie got a lot of undeserved vitriol for that. As if the actors have any control over such story points?!
But like I always say, I don't hate any Doctor Who, I'm happy if it's still on the air in some form. I'm only ever disappointed.
>The previous series with the timeless child is where Chibnall earned all his hate. That was a pretty big retcon
I just rewatched The Day of the Doctor. At the end, Matt Smith's Doctor is implicitly told by his future self to go looking for Galifrey. Is it possible to reconcile this with destroying Galifrey in Timeless Children? To me this is a bigger issue. That was the 50th anniversary special, and as things stand, some of it now makes little sense.
>When she came down to earth to be serious it never came across as serious to me, but just a normal person being normal.
I felt there was a good portrayal of confident bravery. Right, this is dangerous, I am going to walk right up to it. Can't think of a specific example, but that was my impression.
It's definitely the worst Modern era, but I still thoroughly enjoyed it. Lots of great stuff, with a few botched ideas and mid episodes.
If nothing else, the Spy Master was absolutely fantastic, and has my favorite character arc of any Master incarnation.
Traditions must be upheld
If the current showrunner was not the worst showrunner it would not be Doctor Who.
Think that a sheen of nostalgia helps. I also legitimately did not mind Chibnall
I am also a 13 enjoyer. I think some of the political statements by the show are muddled and/or hamfisted (even though I'm a self declared progressive), and the companions could use more characterization. Beyond those issues, I enjoy it a lot and re-watch a few episodes on occasion.
Often times the criticisms get squished down into "bad writing, good actors." This doesn't really elaborate on what people found wrong with the show so let me try to summarize and explain why it was overblown.
The biggest issue with it is this: the dialogue and writing make the Doctor both aloof and disinterested in letting the companions do much. This leads to a lot of the complaints of the era "not feeling like Doctor Who." Moffat and RTD are really good at creating unique character moments where we learn what the characters FEEL.
Chibnall was evidently less interested in that for the main cast in Series 11. There are moments of learning their feelings, but often they end up as broad stroke concerns about their circumstances/surroundings rather than saying anything about the characters themselves. Then Series 12 has to make up for that lack of character depth, and we end up with a muddled idea of who each main cast member is by the end of Series 12.
This all culminates in the audience (who is used to strong character writing) just not wanting to invest in the character arcs. When the stories are mostly about the places and people the characters meet rather than the characters we want to know about, people get annoyed and bored.
One of my favorite moments in the entire 13 era is highly underrated: When 13 is giving a speech to King James in The Witchfinders. I felt like that tapped into a lot of the angst around the COVID era beautifully, even if it was written before the pandemic. I wish we had gotten more of that - 13 being reassuring and earnest in her beliefs about human nature.
13s run has a big problem beyond the actual plot concepts:
The Doctor has almost no sense of agency. She is along for the ride as the villains and all the companions move the pieces on the board, so to speak. Then it culminates in the "Ah-ha!" at the last moment instead of feeling like she led the plot to the climax.
We can go on and on about the plots and the good ideas, the flaws, so forth and so on. The writing style let Jodie down and I don't put any of the faults of her run on her. You can't have such manic stories and scenes and expect her to be able to do anything with it.
I felt that Jodi was miscast. It seemed to me she was playing what she thought the doctor was based on affections and over generalized characterizations of previous doctors. She never embodied her own doctor. Her acting felt forced to me. Even her outfit was a weird mishmash of other doctors rather than being her own. I felt like she was also very cardboard, like everything was delivered with no animation or emotion. And, there was SO MUCH EXPOSITION. Exposition can be boring enough, but with a monotone actor it is unbearable. I thought the master character was okay, but that actor seemed to be a little over the top some didn’t really enjoy his episodes either. Again, I felt like the actor playing the master knew the master was supposed to be maniacal so he just played “crazy”. Michele Gomez’s Missy was just so out of this world, and as lulu as her character was she was never flipping out spittle flying from her mouth etc. Finally, I’m not sure about the huge ensemble of companions. Things get so split up and there isn’t time for any one character to have proper screen time, plus the doctor ends up being off screen too much.
To be fair I did not like Matt Smith or Amy when they first came in, but found the episodes watchable. These I did force myself to watch twice over, but it was very painful. Eventually I ended up liking Matt Smith and can tolerate Amy/Rory although I still don’t love Amy, but I just can’t get on board w Jodi’s doctor and I don’t really give a toss about any of her companions except maybe Grant.
My favorite episode is the Christmas one in the storage place, that actually felt like a Doctor Who episode to me.
I loved Eccleston’s run and Capaldi’s as well, I think David Tennat is a brilliant Doctor and has some of the best episodes, but sometimes the Master storyline for his run wears on me. I have a hard time picking between them, for a favorite.
When people heard that 13 was going to be a woman the haters poured out of the woodwork. Once the season started they were bound and determined to still hate 13, but blamed it on the acting and the writing, because they got so much pushback on their « I hate girls » attitude.
Doctor Who has always had uneven characters and uneven episodes. It boggles my mind to see how much energy some people put into hating so much of it.
It's a pretty consistent 6 out 10 with a few 7 mixed in there(I genuinely like some of historical one offs like the partition one,the witch hunters one,the Mary Shelly one) I also think that era master was quality and I give points to who ever cast Bradley Walsh it's really surreal watching the guy off the chase be in most episodes but it strangely works.
Did it?
I’d honestly argue the biggest flaw in the series is that it *didn’t* make me feel anything.
It was missing so many of the emotional beats from previous eras.
It really grew on me. I’m about to rewatch it so I’m interested to see how I feel about the second time though. I rewatched moffats seasons and I thought those were much worse this time. My third watch after maybe 5 years of not seeing it. For lack of a better word it felt really “cringe”. Jodie’s doctor seasons were different, they were going for a different feel and I think that alone was upsetting. It certainly has weak spots but I liked it tangentially.
For me it's nothing to do with Jodie, who is undoubtedly The Doctor in her presence and execution of the lines. It falls purely on the script, which basically meanders along touching on somewhat good notes, but largely breezing past what could've been highlights in the series.
I only just started watching Whittaker's era last week, and Arachnids in the UK gave me the first of what I suspect will be many WTF moments (though it was generally a decent episode). Toward the end, the Trump-lite character shot a suffering spider, even snidely calling it a mercy killing, while it was suffocating, as 13 protested to keep it alive.
She'd already acknowledged it was too late to save them, so the Doctor decides that letting them suffer an agonising death was the better evil than just putting them out of their misery? No single Doctor before 13 would make that same choice, and yet Chibnall tries to convince us that that is what she would do.
To me there's too many moments of just misunderstanding who the character is, the world and the house that Davies and Moffat had built beforehand.
Chibnall did Jodie wrong.
Too many companions so no one cares about them.
Did you know everyone should be shocked the Doctor is a woman? Cause there were oodles of episode where that happened. Yawn. Doctor Who has a history of strong female characters.
The way the Doctor had to use tween slang was just….awful. Were they going for cool aunt cause all it gave was older person trying to use slang, fam. Cringe.
And 13 was…weirdly dumb? You mean to tell me The Doctor who has travelled all of time and space took a black man in southern Rosa Parks time to a diner and was SHOCKED he got slapped.
And then the FLUX rewriting canon in some weird way that made little sense.
There’s more on why it sucked but I’ll stop here.
And that’s just one example of how the Doctor forgot history.
I love my Jo-day, and I love her with Yaz. I was so happy when Ryan called Graham “granddad,” and the Flux was fascinating. I think The Witchfinder might be my favorite. Siobhan Finneran and Alan Cumming were terrific. Oh and Dan with his dads wok! You’re right, she is underrated. A LOT of the wacko section of the fandom was really really pissed that we had a woman play the Doctor.
I recently caught up after years of wanting to watch and never getting around to it. the only context I knew of, is that her run was "bad" (as to not spoil myself) but Jodie's doctor honestly is up there with Matt Smith in my eyes. minus the flux fiasco I genuinely miss her.
I actually did enjoy the companions at the time, even if they don't have a lot to do. But the Doctor's flip flopping morals and huge changes to canon were what ruined it for me. The episodes were okay, just mostly boring.
It deserves everything it gets. Chibnal almost killed the entire franchise - why do you think they got RTD back? They could have got anyone but they got RTD.
Briefly my problems with it.
1. Childish episodes with one-line morale and meaning that Chibnall push through your throat. 2. TC. 3. Inconsistent, undeveloped plots.
What makes me angry - there was nice ideas, Jodie have potential, flux structure - is a great idea, even TC with caution and time dedicated to it - could be me of the greatest stories, but all this was buried under pile of garbage… And there is a chance that when sane showrunner will pitch such ideas he will hear that they did not work.
A lot of it just feels boring for me. Series 11-13 just felt like unseasoned chicken? Like okay it’s chicken, it is edible but there’s no flavor. It felt so modern without feeling like who at the same time.
I do agree there were some highlights of stories, but it really felt like a slugfest getting through other episodes to get to the alright ones.
I enjoyed some of the music, but the score didn’t really feel like much. I enjoyed series 14’s score significantly more. 14 has a score with presence, it’s felt and has purpose just as much as anything else does.
I think Jodie was a phenomenal pick but the writing did her unbelievably dirty. Companions were half-baked, villains were forgettable (especially Dhawan’s annoying master), and the doctor herself had the great concept of being the most emotionally shut in doctor we’ve had without any nuance or resolution to it until 14 regened in to 15.
I think that Thirteen is filled with good ideas and poor execution. >Obviously it does have a bunch of meh episodes but the story has some highlights and overall carries really well, especially flux. Watching Flux in one go was really an experience. I actually felt differently. Flux was like a rollercoaster of "wow, this is so cool!" and "wow, I have no idea what the fuck is going on and I don't feel invested". It is absolutely a run that is hated more than it probably should be, but it's also... an extreme letdown and the overall decisions in the characterization of The Doctor and "the Fam" mean that even the better episodes are undercut by the way things feel. I never felt like it wasn't Doctor Who, and there are definitely moments where I feel like it was doing cool new things (hey, stuff is happening somewhere other than England!), but Thirteen just monologuing about the moral, and that moral often being underwhelming or even actively harmful, mixed with companions who got constantly undercut and felt like useless tagalongs for most of the run, it just... frustrates.
Yeah, I think the shallowness and inconsistency of the Doctor and the fam are a big part of it. The stories were up and down in other eras too, but we had the characters to fall back on. Debatably Twelve had some of the weakest stories and his era is still probably my favourite because Capaldi is great, his dynamic with Clara is interesting, and so is his later dynamic with Bill, Nardole and Missy. Even when the story is meh you enjoy hanging out with these people. And RTD1 stories had their flaws too, but the dynamics of Nine and Rose, Ten and Donna, etc. more than made up for the weaker episodes. That wasn't really the case with S11-13, though Graham did what he could.
Graham seems to consistently be considered the best character. But it's funny because he barely has much personality either, he's just got a fun attitude for someone you want to go on space trips. I saw the [Magic card](https://cards.scryfall.io/large/front/3/4/3467d66e-1a81-40d6-945a-f2c679d214d1.jpg) and then that run and it's like... oh, yeah, he pulls out a sandwich all of one time so that's clearly what his card should do. There's an entire episode whose plot is started by him clipping coupons in a space magazine to win a free vacation. I feel like the emotional relationships started picking up with The Flux, but then it was bloated and you just have Yaz off leading her own crew whose adventures we barely get to see instead of actually interacting with The Doctor.
IMO Graham in the scripts is meh, he's likeable onscreen mostly because Bradley Walsh is likeable and he's pretty much just playing himself.
Well said. He's got charisma to burn, but they don't give him anything memorable. I've never heard anyone quote a line from him.
I remember him telling the Doc his fear of returning cancer quite clearly, something else that could have been growth for 13 but they never returned to it
OK, now you triggered me :) My similar pet peeve was Ryan's "disability" -- really, his difficulty climbing ladders and riding bikes is supposed to add character dimension and drama?
And all the drama is thrown away when his mates just tell him he can actually do it, and he just sort of luckily does. You just gotta try not be disabled!
Right! Tune in next week when the someone tells the woman in a wheelchair that she's just got to believe in herself.
I don't even know if the quote on the Magic card is even a thing he really said.
Yeah, it's from _It Takes You Away_. The full version is: >RYAN: You carry sandwiches with you every time you leave the Tardis? > >GRAHAM: Yes, well, I've learned the hard way, ain't I? I mean, we can go a long time without eating and I get a bit cranky with the old low blood sugar level. Now, I always come prepared. The image is of Graham with his sandwich.
The image is from Kerblam! I don't even know if he had a sandwich in that scene!
We're talking about this image? https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=634504 He has a sandwich in his hand in that image. It does indeed look like the background from Kerblam! (probably the maintenance store). I'd have to rewatch the episode to see if he had a sandwich in that, or if they composited the image. The card ability (produce food) suggests that's the quote they were referring to.
Adric having "ultimate sacrifice" is just funny.
What about that classic line "Give 'em the ole soft shoe shuffle"?
I'll take what I can get.
I think Graham is strongest in the first season where he’s just more of a complete person than Ryan or Yas IMO 13’s best companion was Grace and I really wish at least the first season was just Graham and Grace with the Doctor, like a delayed honeymoon/three old people bouncing through time and space helping out
I honestly never liked Graham as a companion, the only reason I think people rate him is because he's played by Bradley Walsh. Which I mean fair enough he's a charismatic guy, but watching him I never thought to myself "oh that's Graham the doctors trusted companion" instead it was always just "oh cool it's Bradley Walsh in doctor who "
I saw him more as "the group's dad that was coming along to vacation" and that's why he was great. I think he was pretty good in It Takes You Away as well, which is why it sucks that he got usurped and the plot became about The Doctor instead.
Put yourself in a non-Brit shoes whose first introduction to Bradley Walsh was Doctor Who and you can understand why he was so popular. Which is my case, I only knew vaguely of him beforehand but nothing more. But for someone who only discovered him through Graham, it's easy to see how he became so beloved.
Fair point
>There's an entire episode whose plot is started by him clipping coupons in a space magazine to win a free vacation. This made me chuckle. 🤭 I agree on the up/down opinion on Graham. It's really funny in retrospect though that they really did base an entire script around Graham clipping up space coupons. I think I enjoyed him as I did because his personality felt real, relatable, wholesome...and he seemed to feel he was in over his head often. Which was something as a viewer I cheered for him. However, was his role in stories believable to the plot? Dan using a wok on a Sontaran was more believable than Graham defeating the Stenza.
I also feel the same way now about 15 and Ruby. Not all of their episodes are great, but their dynamic is fun so I can tolerate a weaker story.
Personally I'm not there with those two yet. Probably partly because it's been such a short run with two Doctor-lite stories. So far a lot of their dynamic seems to have developed off-screen.
Yeah that's valid. I too wish the series was longer and with more of the Doctor and companion's relationship given focus. But I think in comparison to the "fam" I'm much happier with the TARDIS team dynamic than before.
Graham left because he got tired of holding up the show
I think 13, Dan, and Yaz worked as a much better team than 13, Graham, Ryan, and Yaz. Four people in a TARDIS team is too many (seriously there's a reason that when 5 was traveling with Tegan, Nyssa, and Adric, one of them was always getting kidnapped/lost and thusly "written out" of the majority of the action).
I think three is alright just not as always. S13 gave us Yaz, Jericho and Dan as a good trio but Jericho's companionship was pretty limited
I'm only a very casual fan, but am I crazy that two parters seem to be few and fair between since 12. Watching the most recent Who and even 13ths run, I enjoyed myself just fine, but it always felt like stuff that could've been a neat 2 parter ended quickly. Left development of companions and our doctors feel a little abrupt.
S11 was deliberately intended as a streamlined jumping on point so it had no two-parters and no returning villains. In S12, 4 of the 10 eps were in two-parters. S13 _(Flux)_ was a 6(!) parter. In the new series (S14 or S1 depending how you count) 2 of the 8 eps were in two-parters.
This reply made me realize i thought they left the season on a crazy cliffhanger but I just didn't watch the last episode of S14 *whoops*.
Glad I could help. 😄
What really turned me off about the moral thing was the episode where the aliens are literally killing people on earth and doctor tells the companions if they retaliate they can't travel with her. Like wtf...
Also her choice to lock all that spiders children in a vault to cannibalise each other and eventually starve to death rather than let the American with a gun put them out of their misery, because nothing is worse than shooting a gun, not even cruelty on that scale
God that conclusion of the spider episode pisses me off so much especially since I like the episode just because I like spiders
You'll have to remind me about specifics. I vaguely recall her saying no guns, and that she was establishing the rule against robots for the future. Also that was another thing, the enemies in that run had way worse shot than ever before, despite being super high tech assassin bots.
I swear she was even angry at Ryan for considering picking up one of their guns to even the odds against the assassin robots
Yes, there’s quite a bit of inconsistency about the guns and violence thing over the entire Doctor’s arc. I recently watched a Pertwee (3rd doctor) episode where he shot a bad guy after unsuccessfully trying to beat the crap out of him. I was thinking wait…I thought the doctor didn’t do stuff like that…hmm.
Shooting this dying giant spider is wrong but locking dozens of them in a bunker forever to eventually starve is fiiiiine
For me it wasn't that I hated it, I just thought it was very... there. Its not like it had huge negatives, it just didn't have all that many positives. You mentioned the fam - none of them got on my nerves like, say, Tegan. But they just didn't really add anything at all to the episodes. And when there's 30 other shows that people have been recommending to you you have to be better than mediocre to be worth the time.
I also didn't hate it. I actually kept track of my thoughts after every episode and while I often complained about a lot of it—the Doctor being kind of mean, the companions always getting undercut, tension and explanations being often undercooked—I overall really liked it.
This was my main issue. Over a very long history of watching Doctor Who, some stories have stayed with me for a short while, some for longer, and some for a very long time, turning them over and over again, thinking about them endlessly. But with this run, I often found that just a short time after viewing, I couldn't even recall what the episode had been about. It was like there hadn't been anything compelling enough (positive or negative) to linger in my mind after the fact. It was just... there, and then gone.
Yep, I've always enjoyed 13s run. I really enjoyed how chibnal did away with a lot of the "humans are amazing, look at you surviving and spanning the galaxy, you're so special" and had episodes where the monsters of the week weren't the "big bad" of the episodes. I know there were evil humans in 10-12, but not quite the same. I was let down by the relationships and character development overall, but I have critiques of every era. Moffat was great at one-off episodes and character development, but suffered laying the groundwork for major plot points. Like... Who is Mel? Oh, she's just Amy's best friend, always has been, here's a montage of their antics!! Never mentioned her before, but she's been there the whole time! I'm so mad at him for completely resolving river songs story line in one doctor.... She was supposed to have seen so many faces of the doctor, but nah.. it's gonna be all Matt Smith. RTD like, ok... Maybe we don't need a 19 year old companion in love with a 900 year old timelord. And as much as I love the resolution of badwolf, just repeating a phrase (or face, looking at you Susan twist) in each episode is not really a story arc. I've never fully watched the classics.. But like... Those are objectively pretty bad too. Doctor who is a campy and generally low budget scifi show about a time travelling alien in a box that often solves problems by saying random futury sciencelike words. I don't know what people are expecting from this show I'm frankly tired of all of the complaints all the fucking time. I'm tired of the new doctors bad and the old doctors are good. There's episodes I like, there's episodes I don't in every season.
> I think that Thirteen is filled with good ideas and poor execution. Could say the same about Fifteen tbh
I like everything from Fifteen better. Say what you will about the logistics of the reveals, the Doctor-Companion relationship is better and The Doctor doesn't go giddy for space Amazon and not even comment on the fact that the entire system is jobless but still requires food tokens to eat.
> the Doctor-Companion relationship is better How? We don’t see any of it. We just get told in the finale that Ruby is the Doctor’s best friend, and that she changed him. We don’t actually SEE any of their relationship.
Godspeed your bravery, for you are a pilgrim in an unholy land in saying such things
Their sacrifice will not be forgotten.
Hope they survive for the inevitable Chibnall 2.0 in 15 years . ~~I wonder how many times gallifrey will be destroyed by then?~~
Oh I don't know: if there's one thing that's consistent on the internet, it's that everything is "underrated"
I'm a fan of Doctor Who, I've watched it throughout even when I've not enjoyed it, and completely frankly 13s era was a mess. That doesn't mean it was all literally the worst thing ever, but in terms of writing it's absolute garbage tier. Note that your laundry list of good things amount to the music, visual effects, and costuming/makeup. These things are definitely positives. The problem is that the letdowns are characterisation, development, storytelling, and an often very wonky tone to some of the episodes (looking at you Kerblam!). I get it if you enjoy it, that's cool. But it's pretty terrible in those departments and that's no fault of the actors or the people doing the effects, music, or costumes. I've looked into this and I think it's because of how Chibnall writes. He gives actors "big themes" to work with and kind of just lets them fill in the blanks. He did it on Broadchurch which Jodie was a central character in, (as well as David Tennant) and it's obvious she has the skill and ability to do a great job, but she was interpreting the weighty themes of losing a child, and that carries its own built-in emotional heft. Doctor Who, by contrast, is limited to more vague or abstract problems. You can't have the emotional gut punch of a lost child, and spend time dwelling on that giving the actors the time and space to draw that out, because it's a fast paced show about space and time travel and you never spend more than one episode in the same place. Chibnall was just, imo, the wrong fit for Who. Edit: I want to make this clear, I love the *idea* of 13 and I dearly wish her run was better. There's something in there that could have been really good with a bit more work. Also Jo Martin series when? She was absolutely *perfect* for the role.
>(looking at you Kerblam!). Me starting the episode: ah yes Amazon the evil.horrible company yhat steals and overworks workers that is a horrible company run! Yes let's talk about this! Yes absolutely I can't wait to throw Amazon the shade and talk about it The episode: actually it was one guy causing issues the company is actually great ans nothings wrong and they do care about you Me: huh HUH
She also really did not need to kill that guy
Agreed she didn't But the episode seemed like it was going in the way ut should of been is that Amazon is an evil company and it went the actually no nothing wrong with Amazon! Only a bad person
literally the kerblam system: Murders innocent person 13: It isn't the systems at fault, it's the people in the system!
Jodie was fine. Chi**all shouldn't be allowed to touch any writing implement ever again.
13 is a great character by herself, let down by the scripts being a first-draft of a good idea. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Seeing 13 in a multi-doctor special a few years down the line is going to be *very* interesting. Honestly I don't even think Chibnall was the problem. There are some good ideas in his scripts, they just don't come together. It feels more like he ran out of time than anything else. Its the production schedule that was the problem. Hell, it wasn't even necessarily *bad*. It was just *generic*. And Doctor Who should never be generic.
i also just finished a rewatch and it was certainly better than i remember, but definitely still some of the least engaging DW we’ve had in a while. the spectacle was definitely there with some beautiful set pieces and great shift in music, but seriously some of the least characterized characters in any show i’ve ever seen lol. 13 felt like the most generic “doctor” performance possible, with little to no traits of her own. the gaggle of companions was also very lackluster, with many of their defining traits disappearing almost instantly
It could have been a really solid run if they figured out those damn companions. Just no chemistry between them, which is ironic considering they are the “fam” companions. Ryan was so one dimensional and boring, but on top of that the actor was just trash. I mean that’s gotta be an all time worst performance for a recurring Doctor Who character. Every line delivery, every reaction shot, I wish I had nice things to say about him but I just don’t. He took me out of each and every scene. Yaz was halfway to decent, but I also found myself constantly questioning what she stood for. Who is she as a character? They give her a backstory and conflict (conflict which is more real feeling than Ryan’s half-written fears), but the portrayal never feels full fledged. And then the doctor attraction was first forced and then abandoned. Graham was a solid companion. He had a moral compass, he had some baggage, he stood for things that the actor portrayed well and it brought depth that the other two lacked. But it wasn’t enough to carry the whole fam.
Ryan was made to be JUST A GUY and he was JUST A GUY
No he's a dyspraxic guy who lost his nan, remember he couldn't ride his bike and Graham was teaching him, that's his whole character arc lmfao
Oh no! Ryan is in danger and has to do this thing that's incredibly hard for him due to his dyspraxia! How is "the fam" going to help him, accommodate to his needs and save themselves? Oh right, he's just going to try very hard and luckily succeed this time! Remember, if you just try very hard when your life depends on it, you can get out of any danger regardless of your disabilities! We're very proud of you Ryan!
Remember, kids, just try and not be disabled
I'll give this a go and report back afterwards with the results.
That in particular really annoyed me, his disability vanished when the plot called for it, and at the end he got over it by trying really hard. He got over his disability. What the hell. I assumed his arc was going to be about people making accommodations for him and him learning to accept help with the things he can't do because there's other things he can do.
Yeah Ryan is one of the worst comparisons. I think "fam" should be Dan-Yaz-Graham/Jericho since the beginning
13 is a delightful character that is well acted. She also feels like a first draft of what 15 became: “The first Doctor that is happy and well adjusted”. We have no real highs, lows, personality flaws or signature strengths. She’s just… the Nice one. During Flux, we got hints of seeing more sides to her. When Yaz says 13 never says anything “real”, and 13 angrily says “Haven’t we been having fun!?”. It gives the impression that 13’s kindness is a perpetual changing of the subject . I’d like to have seen more of that. In short, I really, REALLY want Big Finish to get Jodie Whittaker. They could make incredible things happen with them.
Avoiding talking about real things isn't a character flaw? Lol 13 went out of her way to make everything just fun fun fun and avoided anything like dwelling on horrible things that she can't change. It's like she avoided these things out of fear and couldn't get close to her companions as if another Bill situation would happen. She definitely isn't happy or well adjusted, she has a very harmful defense mechanism preventing her from having meaningful relationships. Her era in addition to all the NuWho eras up to the end of hers are exploring the Doctors changes post Time War and the toll it took on them, resulting in 13 eventually then 14/15s conversation about working through their trauma.
Thank you for this rebuttal to consider!
It's honestly one of the things I like most about her era, her and Yaz have really good scenes where they almost have conversations with their eyes about it. Ryan and Graham... Not so much.
It's happening.
Every time.
>New thing bad >Old thing good now
It's so funny how this happens in every single subreddit fandom: like absolute clockwork
It's not lol. One or two people liked it when it was coming out and one or two people are defending it now. Our emotions over it are becoming less raw, but that doesn't change how fundamentally and objectively awful that era is.
I can assure you that this time it is deserved Next time we will know better
I like the part where 13 does terrible things and then moralises about them as if she's the good guy. Peak Doctor Who imo.
When people ask me who my favorite doctor is, I always say the current one. My current favorite doctor is Gatwa because the best is yet to come. I say this because I am absolutely sick of the roller coaster where everybody trashes the current season and then goes back and watches it later and says hey this is pretty good. It always happens. And I don't know why. People did this to Capaldi for God's sakes. How could you do this to Capaldi? And Matt Smith. Loved him from the start. It's really important to embrace change. If there's one lesson from this show that's what it is. Life goes on. The only thing we can be certain of is change. And the best is definitely yet to come.
Watched the whole series with my kids and pretty much the only episodes they didn’t like were 13’s
i think the reason it go so overwhelmingly hated because if you thought it was bad when it was coming out, then youre going to be frustrated and get increasingly more annoyed for the whole 3 seasons because you have to sit through it while it's new. even mediocre-to-occasionally-good episodes can make you more mad because you dont believe it can maintain that. i will say while i dont like \*most\* of thirteens episodes barring a small handful, now that its not what we're waiting for every week, its not as offensive/aggravating.
I generally think it wasn't the worst thing ever, but it was fairly weak. Akinola had some incredible ideas like the new Cybermen theme or the main titles, but I feel like the moment to moment music was really unremarkable. The characterisation was really weak. Yaz being a cop, Ryan's dyspraxia, basically vanished after their second mention. S11 set up Graham as being grieving, then the finale cast Ryan as the one wanting vengeance? Captain Jack returns then leaves off screen? The doctor disobeys Jack's advice with the cyberium then just sidesteps the consequences because the master is more important than the Cybermen, I guess. The cinematography is fantastic though
Noooo Graham helped Ryan ride a bike though!!!! Also Graham's fear of returning cancer was mentioned like once and the Doctor just didn't want to talk
The cinematography was not fantastic, it was often very sloppy, poorly lit, lacking creativity with awful stiff blocking. What you’re noticing is merely the fact they used anamorphic lenses, which give a more stereotypically “cinematic” look, but the Series itself is shot so poorly.
Reddit doesn't understand what the word cinematography. Image make brain Oo Shiny = Based Kino Cinematography.
>Akinola had some incredible ideas like the new Cybermen theme or the main titles, but I feel like the moment to moment music was really unremarkable. So unremarkable that I honestly can't remember any of it. It was just ambient background noise.
Biggest problem for me was 13's apparent disregard for her companions. Been watching these for the first time with a friend while we waited for each new Ncuti episode but the final nail in the coffin for me was Graham. He was open, he was vulnerable, he was trying to have a conversation with the Doctor and she just completely disregarded his concerns and fears. I know it was the writers trying to make an MCU style joke ("I'm still quite socially awkward so I'm just going to walk away") but it was a terrible display for the character. That paired with the fact that she never seems to actually trust her companions with any information (not telling them she's a Time Lord or even what regeneration is despite it being a big deal and may come up in adventure). As many have said, there's good ideas but bad execution. The Master and The Doctor both regress heavily from their respective character arcs in Tennant and Capaldi's era, the biggest offender being the Master's entire arc being thrown away (despite how fun Sacha Dhawan can be), he seems like an earlier regeneration. I enjoy Jodie in other shows (she had some great acting in Broadchurch) and Chibnall can write some fun episodes (albeit they always involve countdowns and running down corridors lol) but it seems he couldn't handle being show runner and Jodie just couldn't be the Doctor without proper direction, proper writing. There are fun parts of her run, although the greatest thing to come from her era is Graham. Forget old Doctor's coming back as new ones, bring back Graham! Loved Bradley Walsh.
It’s fun seeing the new show runner cycle start as soon as opinion on RTD2 wavers the slightest. Not saying you’re wrong but this sub is becoming nostalgic for chibnall the same way moffat went from formulaic and boring to messiah after series 11 and 12 flopped.
Not gonna lie, really not a fan of these “this is over hated” type posts. Seeing that a lot of people share an opinion and then deciding to tell them that they’re all wrong because you disagree is just kinda odd, in my opinion.
I agree, so long as you extend the sentiment to the sub's longstanding habit of saying swaths of the fanbase who enjoyed Thirteen as her episodes came out were lying or wrong because they liked it for bad reasons.
Exactly. You couldn't--and as we are largely seeing play out here, still can't--say you genuinely enjoyed 13's run! Even if you are ready and willing to banter about the flaws you saw, those get morphed into "it was unwatchable because of x" rants instead of just problems. Made it incredibly tiresome to bring up Chibnall. But the Moffat fans did get to have their "first time?" moment lmao
I disagree but im glad you enjoyed it
I felt the same way when I went back and watched it. Initially I just gave up on the show and didn’t watch more than like five of her episodes, but a couple years later I rewatched from season one and gave her another chance. I liked her a lot the second time around. I still wouldn’t rank 13 above 9-12, but I’ll agree I think it’s a little underrated. A lot of the criticism is fair, it’s mostly subjective, but yeah I found it enjoyable.
I didn't hate it. She's a great actor, and Yaz was a great companion. (I was also a big fan of Bill, though, so my opinions may not be popular.) The biggest issue I had was the writing. It was inconsistent, with dialogue that sometimes felt almost satirical. The thing I love about the show is that there's a mix of individual stories, woven into a season long story arc. Whittaker's Doctor felt like stand alone episodes with a story arc tacked on without much thought or respect for the source material - like it was an obligation rather than a goal. This season has been the first time in YEARS that my wife and I talked about the episodes, speculated about the mysteries, read fan theories and got *invested.* This is the first time in years that we've felt the need to *avoid spoilers.* (Yes, I'm aware the finale fell a little flat.) That mix of stand alone episodes all tying into the bigger arc was there in a way I haven't felt since Matt Smith. I mean, I LOVE Peter Capaldi, and the single most memorable thing in his entire run as the doctor was... Michelle Gomez becoming the absolute embodiment of the Master. I mention Capaldi because he's proof that the best acting can't overcome disorganized, inconsistent writing. In 5 years, I'll know who Ruby is. I'll know Amelia Pond and Rory. I'll know Clara, and Bill, just like I remember Rose, Donna and Sarah Jane. Sitting here, just a couple years since 13, her companions were Yaz... The guy who lost his wife, his step son who sometimes had balance issues (unless he inexplicably didn't that week) and the generic replacement guy. 4 companions, and 3 of them were utterly forgettable - at least, to me. And villains? After Michelle Gomez, we get a version of the Master that just rants like a comic book bad guy in an almost cartoonish way - like he could turn around and scream "Harry, did you put your name in the goblet?!?" at any second, for no reason, and I'm not sure I'd have noticed. Those episodes aren't *bad,* by any means - but I'll be dawned if I can remember any of them... like, a dude with teeth getting a lecture about guns? Maybe? That's why people don't like 13, I think.
Totally agree about the current series. It's the first time in years that I've rewatched episodes before the next one is released and the first time in years that I've come on here to look at post episode discussion threads. I've layed in bed awake trying to work out a plausible explanation for 73 Yards (and failed). I've probably not been this invested since DT's original run.
Overhated? Sure Underrated? Nah. Most of the episodes are REALLY boring and uninspired. Hate is a very strong feeling towards the kind of episodes in Chibnall's era (except the Timeless Child arc) but they're still low quality writing, direction, acting.
Look it wasn't horrible but it was definitely lacking. The biggest issue was Yas and Ryan being boring AF. At least Graham had some personality. And the doctor never had her I am the Doctor moment. She can't do scary. At all. Jo Martin was amazing and I wish we had more of her!
The main issue is that the writing for Jodie's run seldom had much depth. Previous showrunners would take a single idea and then push it as far as they could to see what happened - "Blink", for instance, was based on a short story in a Doctor Who Annual in which a young Sally finds messages to herself in some old photos. There were no Angels in it; just the Doctor stuck in the past and needing her help, and knowing about her because she would tell him in her future (and his past). Or what about "Midnight"? A tight and genuinely creepy story that feels like something Quatermass might have encountered. Jodie's run was stuffed with ideas, and none of them were given much room to breathe. As a result, plots end up with a mishmash of different ideas thrown together without much linking them together. In her very first story, for instance, Ryan encounters an alien spaceship that basically gives him an EULA to sign - which is a neat idea, and could have been the start of a decent plot in itself, but makes no sense in connection to anything that Tim Shaw is doing. The final story of the first series was even worse - we have LOADS of ideas in there. The Ux; superpowered beings who come across as a bit bland and stupid. Tim Shaw is back, and he's... collecting people and putting them in cold storage? He's also collecting planets (a plot right out of "The Pirate Planet" back in the 1970s, even down to having them all stored in miniature form in a vault somewhere). There's a deadly field on the planet that drives people mad, but fails to affect anyone during the course of the story even when their protective macguffins go wrong. Any one or two of these plot strands could be developed into a great story - but here they're all just thrown in and largely ignored. *Flux* is the biggest example of this plot thread insanity. We have so many villains that they don't even all get the chance to do much. The Grand Serpent is wasted. Swarm and Azure are fantastic, and criminally underused. Division turns out to be one woman and her Ood on a spaceship (with a big tree in it for some reason). The Temple of Atropos is threatened, and then saved - but none of this has anything to do with the flux itself. There's a whole race of dog-people who are bonded to humanity, a concept with so many avenues to explore it could be a whole series in its own right, and they all die off-screen and are promptly forgotten. There are time tunnels under Liverpool, and nobody seems to know how they got there or what relevance they have beyond resolving a plot hole. There's even a whole section in which Yaz, Dan and Professor Whatshisname go gallivanting through Earth's past to... I don't entirely know what they're doing. It all proves completely pointless, anyway. Loads of great ideas, but all rushed off and none of them explored properly. I still can't stand "Ghost Monument" for being such an enormous missed opportunity. It's supposed to be a race on a deadly planet! What we actually get is a gentle stroll through some tunnels!! Give us several other racers, let some of them die to prove how deadly the planet is, and most of all *don't just rejoin the regulars again after two minutes*. The whole "we don't know if the others are still alive" shtick is a major dramatic beat! Why not keep that up for the whole episode??
Nope it was 100% worthy of every bit of distain and hatred I hold for it. I generally try and forget it happened considering it was the era that made me give up on doctor who. Do you know how miserable it is to realize your favorite show is no longer making you excited but unhappy? It got to a point where I had to ask myself why am I forcing myself to watch this? It isn't fun. The stories were boring and preachy the only likeable character was Graham and that was due to Bradley Walsh and I was never once convinced 13 was the doctor. The music sounds like background ambiance stuff you'd find for studying on YouTube at BEST I don't think I ever noticed it the way I did with gold and it certainly never added any emotional weight and the opening titles look like a toilet flushing.
If you like it then that’s great, and more power to you. I’m not saying this to be controversial - I’ve given 13’s run a chance on three separate occasions. It’s just terrible. It should be good. The showrunner helped make Torchwood so it should’ve at least been that level of character writing….but nope - each character is shallow as a puddle. The dialogue is so clunky. The arcs of characters get shat on - Spy Master coming after Missy redeeming herself. The doctor lost all sense of what made him interesting in NuWho, where was the darkness or the old eyes in a younger person’s body? Gone. Don’t get me started on the timeless child stuff. Or killing off Gallifrey again (ruining a decade long arc of the Doctor fixing something that’s haunted him for a 1000+ years.)
I’m watching it again myself. I barely remember most of it but I’m definitely enjoying it. It does have its problems, but I don’t think it’s terrible. And I have to admit, I think I’m enjoying it more than I enjoyed the most recent season. I await the downvotes.
I am exactly the same - don’t remember a lot, I know I wasn’t that enthusiastic at the time, despite having been thrilled about Jody being cast. But rewatching it now at the same time as the new series, 13’s run does feel more enjoyable somehow. I will go as far to say I even prefer the writing.
Yeah. The new series felt like it had a different tone and pacing. I’m still working my way through my thoughts I guess, but it’s just different, and I’m not sure it’s for me. The stuff with UNIT was my least favourite. All very quippy and expositional. And more than Doctor Who usually is…which is already quite a lot. The older seasons had a lot more time to breath as well. Lots of slower paced character moments, and I’m loving it. A lot of people seem to like it, and I’m happy for them. Just not for me I suppose.
Depends. Her first series had so many misses compared to hits. I think that coloured a lot of people's perception for the rest of the era. I didn't mind the other two series for the most part but they still have their stinky moments.
I also like it better, but to be fair I’ll make that judgement after Ncuti’s full run is complete.
Some of the ideas were good but Chibnall doesn’t know how to make it work
This is just an ouroboros cycle. Season 1 comes out, and it's hated. Season 2 comes out, people say how actually season 1 was better than this new season 2. Season 3 comes out, people say how actually Season 2 was better than this new season 3. I remember during Capaldi's initial run, people hated his low points and said how some of his episodes were the worst thing ever. Then Jodie's era dropped, and people hated on that era and talked about how actually Capaldi's wasn't so bad and how Jodie's era is the worst. And now, Ncuti's run is on air and people are repeating the same thing about Jodie. Give it a few years and people will be like "Actually, Ncuti's era is overhated, I like it more than \[16th doctor's current run\]"
See its not though because every new Doctor gets resistance. I am used to that. But this was awful. It never got better. I kept hoping.
On pretty much every fundamental level of storytelling and scriptwriting this era was beyond abysmal. I genuinely don't know how a series where a majority of the recurring characters have no character traits can ever be referred to as good. If it hadn't had the Dr who name it wouldn't have survived a season. I see these posts trying to rescue chibnall's reputation and I can't help but think people need to learn you're allowed to enjoy bad things. You don't have to persuade everyone else it's actually good, you can just watch it. It's very freeing.
While I do think people need to marinate w the new Doctor before denouncing them or professing their love I still think 13 was abominable. I believe I’ve watched the season 2 1/2 times now and all of my runs I stopped only so many episodes in and had to take a break bc it was just SO BORING. It felt like someone who doesn’t like sci-fi or fantasy, making a bad and boring version of what they think Doctor Who is. I watched Who as a kid and remember loving Tom Baker. Then I loved Eccleston and was really loathe to see him go, but Tennant was so good it really didn’t matter. When Matt Smith’s season rolled out I thought it was awful, I thought he was too goofy and I hated Amy. I still found the run very watchable and even loved some of the episodes. On a rewatch I realized Smoth’s was all good (except Amy, still don’t care for Karen G as an actress). Capaldi was AMAZING and I loved his whole run. Not 💯 on some of the Nardole stuff, but whatever. Needless to say I’ve watched and rewatched all of these seasons so many times over. I won’t watch 13 again, it’s horrible and boring and I just can’t do it.
I don't see how anyone can argue 13 is even remotely as good as 14.
People in this thread are doing so. Although I don't know if it's personal preference or just normal "Old good new bad". Even while liking 13's run and thinking 14's run does have a couple of major problems, I also cannot see how people can like 13's over 14's unless they're misremembering the bad episodes and only focusing on the handful of good episodes
Oh I can see it on thread, I just don't understand it. 13's writing was *absolutely terrible* in terms of plots, and mostly characterisation, and most of the actors weren't high caliber enough to compensate for the writing to carry it. And yeah, 14 still has problems, but nothing near as offensive as 13.
To Me it's just the fact that it commits the cardinal sin of any show, but especially Doctor Who: it's boring. You have a show that can be literally anything and somehow you make it boring? Say what you will about Moffat or RTD, I was never bored for more than an episode or two. Whereas the Chibnall era, imo, consists *mostly* of boring plots, boring characters, and boring arcs. I quit watching the show for a bit during this era, not because I was outraged, but because I was so unengaged that I lost interest
>New visuals, a great title sequence, Akinolas music gives me chills and the locations, sets and makeup are a whole new level "Guy's 13's era is overhated. These aspects of the show that it is unanimously agreed to be pretty good during this era are good. I'm not going to mention the abysmal writing and character work, the two issues this era is mostly criticised for and two incredibly important aspects of the show, because then you'll remember that this era is pretty bad."
I haven't rewatched S11 in a long time but I remember finding it dull, and a lack of a series arc really hurt it. I also remember the finale feeling like an ordinary episode. I'll give it another go soon, but I got so frustrated by the time of Flux that I have bad memories of it. I'll give it another go soon.
I envy your enjoyment. I really wanted to love her era, but couldn’t.
After a recent rewatch, I've enjoyed it more than I expected. Some of it ironically, though less than I thought. The issues are still... glaring... impossible to ignore... BUT, it's fun and occasionally gets a laugh out of me! S11 is marginally enjoyable. Can't wait till my S12 rewatch.
Whenever a show is current it is under intense pressure, it has to be the best of the show because if it's not then "New show is bad!" Once a show is no longer the new show it is almost allowed to flourish more, to find it's audience. There's a lot I don't like about 13s run, I think the Timeless Child stuff stands out as particularly bad not just as a story but as something that the shows own canon has to grapple with- But I would say that people let that often overshadow a lot of the cool stuff of Jodies run. And seeing Bradley Walsh on Doctor Who was just fantastic.
13 suffered from overall substandard stories. Still had some great ones, and even substandard Dr Who is fun.
I completely agree
The show got a nice visual bump and Jodie was fine but the monsters and plots fell a bit flat and I couldn't stand the companions outside of Graham.
You know, I've watched it twice, but I don't remember what happened in the story at all.
That’s the thing. I could not list much that happened in that era at all. I remember there were some really great scenes, and some great dialogue, but the stories themselves were not good. And if you wanted me to list those scenes I remember as being good, I simply no longer remember….
I know! This must be what a perception filter feels like!
You say yourself you remember it being mediocre until you rewatched, but now you can’t understand why people think it’s mediocre?
13 just wasn't fun for me. You gave good points, the CG. Music, Costumes, just everything was ramped up, but every bit of story telling felt like a letdown. The decision to not include classic villains until much later left some hollow spots. The boiling down of almost every story to being "humanity bad" just felt rough. Like we've had human bad episodes before, but they usually also had a spark of hope or good from some other human element but that felt absent for most stories. I longed for a goofy episode to break it up. Or just an actual abstract horror villain but it felt like every monster got excused and was just a product of a bad human. Maybe I'm miss remembering I took about a 4 or so year break from the show following season 12. Only just watched flux last week and seeing the specials now. The TARDIS felt crowded with a bunch of people who were longing to be developed but there wasn't enough screen time for every one of them AND The Doctor to have their day. It almost felt like a special where they bring 2-3 people but we didn't have a developed companion to stand on their own. Flux was great for that since we finally got to develop Yaz more. But it should've been done in season 11. I would've loved Graham and Ryan to fill a more Wilf and Mickey sort of role to the series. Jodie was fun, I loved her Doctor. I just felt the series suffered with so much that I wasn't having fun. Luckily I'm having fun again with Flux and the Specials, so looking forward to the next season.
\*snifffff\* mmm that sweet copium
I'm fairly new to new DW. Started at Xmas and just finished all of the episodes of the current era (Eccleston - Gatwa). I used to watch the classics on rerun with my dad growing up, but definitely don't have my head around all the lore like some folks. That said, I really loved Whittaker's portrayal of the Doctor, despite the mediocre-at-best writing of Chibnall's run. I hope that we see her again under another showrunner to give her the opportunity to really shine. I want closure for her in a few areas and I just really loved seeing the doctor as a woman.
Flux fell apart and had a lot that didn’t make sense, partially a result of COVID restrictions for filming and also Chibnall isn’t a good writer. There were very few standout episodes in this era. Yaz was a horrible companion. Worse than having episodes with bad endings, were so many boring episodes. I’m not going into specific episodes, and there were some I actually think were pretty good, but as a whole the writing just wasn’t there. But also, I don’t think he ever wrote a standout episode when RTD and Moffat were running the show. While I like Jodie, I’m also not sure if she was a good choice. Something about her performance would tend to fall flat, not all the time of course, but she lacked something, like she was on the cusp of being really good but she never quite made it.
It just doesn’t feel like Doctor Who without Murray Gold. Felt like a different show.
Another terrible take. The only reason 13 is not the worst Doctor ever is because 15 is far worse.
There were lots of ideas that could have worked. But none of them did. Bad casting, bad writing, bad directing.
I’m right there with you, I enjoyed her era and wish it hadn’t shortchanged her on episode numbers.
Yeah I’ve been rewatching it lately and I’ve been really enjoying it. I don’t see why it gets so much hate either. Just like every season of NuWho it has its bad episodes and it’s good episodes. I’m currently about to watch Ascension of the Cybermen and I’m looking forward to it
Give me a ryan character trait.
He likes chips.
he has a disorder that means he can't ride a bike
But lets him do basically anything else.
He got nervous looking at a ladder once but it was fine in the end
He has dyspraxia and is afraid of spiders. Two traits that *definitely weren't* informed through dialogue or side scenes and then mysteriously absent when they would have been relevant to a story.
He's closed off from everybody after Grace's passing for most of Series 11. Traveling in the TARDIS helped him be more open with his friends and Graham.
Ryan is to beige what beige is to us. Edit: perhaps should go a little more in detail, Tosin Coles performance was very flat and monotone all the time,now if he was told to act that way idk but the end result is what it is. Couple that with lackluster character development and it just doesn’t work.
Ryan in the ghost monument isn't that closed off. I don't notice a change in his "openness" at all across his time in the tardis.
In the beginning he has NO interest in calling Graham any sort of familial name. At the end he's calling him Gramps and actively recognizing the relationship they've cultivated can be their own, and they can help each other grieve and remember Grace. Thats a huge change in his vulnerability and willingness to be open from the start of season 11.
He cares about his best friend and helps him realise he needs help with his mental health and gets him to go talk to a group of people who understand what he’s going through
Which best friend???
To me it's like he had interesting ideas but didn't develop them well.
Personally, I don’t like her era one bit. There’s like maybe 2-3 stand out episodes that I wouldn’t mind watching again, but otherwise it’s a hard no. Especially with all the canon changes like the Timeless Child. But if you enjoy it, I’m happy for you.
It's not.
I could not tell you one iconic moment, iconic speech, memorable episode, etc
The other way around, my man. It's not hated nearly enough.
I agree. Upon initial watch I wasn’t too fond of her run, but after rewatching all 3 of her seasons I found myself enjoying them a lot more. I’m still not too fond about flux but her first two seasons are really solid and a fun watch. I think I may have put a lot of expectations on her initially which kinda ruined the fun but after a couple years I was pleasantly surprised. Online sentiment can also easily influence people into thinking it’s worst than it is imo
Yeah, I completely disagree. I agree that, at the very least, Series 11 is experimental (though this is mainly the natural effect of having a new showrunner with a different vision) but that doesn't necessarily make it good. I'd argue Season 1/Series 14 is far more experimental intentionally with much more meat on its bones to be interested in past 'it's different'. There is the occasional good shot or generally better lighting/sets, but TBH I actually really hate the visuals as they are just incredibly ugly looking at times. The vast majority if not the totality of the era is just very poorly written and poorly performed, even the "big making your mark" episode of the era (Timeless Children) was a shallow exposition dump that relied on the next showrunner doing anything with it. My friends and I tried to do a big rewatch of the era together but we had to stop halfway through Series 11 because it was incredibly boring.
I agree, there was some great stuff to come out of Jodie's era and I enjoyed the new visuals, locations, make up, costumes and music. My issue with the period is that it introduces a bunch of ideas, and they almost never go anywhere or have consequences. A few off the top of my head: Timeless child for example... why introduce it? What did Chibnell do with it after the big reveal? It was basically dropped immediately after. The romance between the Doctor and Yaz. They knew Jodie was on the way out by the time they introduced this rather suddenly with no foreshadowing. They both say "I love you" then nothing. It just didn't seem to be mentioned or followed up again. Flux - Half the universe is destroyed. There was no consequence to this and was never mentioned again.
I watched the first half of her first season before I gave up, then waited until this year and forced my way through the pain to watch all of it. I can't exactly tell you why I hated it because I have forgotten everything about it already, that's how memorable it was.
i genuinely love 13’s era and think its written well. its not my favorite but its nowhere near the bottom of my list by any means.
Please, in any amount of words you like, explain to me how 13s run is well written. Ryan has no character. Not at all. Yaz is essentially Jodie two. No personality beyond that. Graham carried the show. Hard. Jodie………it’s tough. She has flashes of brilliance but she never seemed to nail down exactly how she wanted to play her doctor, especially in season 1. That inconsistency definitely put people off early doors. The timeless child stuff is aggressively poor writing and has damaged the canon going forward. Rosa was a downright offensive episode. Kerblam! Was also a bit of a pisstake. The best episode of her entire run was her first one, and it’s at best a 7.
Welcome to the small but very vibrant people of 13/Chibnall lovers! We will be vindicated in 20-something years!
I just really didn’t enjoy it. I enjoyed /her/ but didn’t like the actual content of the episodes if that makes sense. I did LOVE The Power of the Doctor though. I just wasn’t fond at all of the episodes myself. There are for sure some good ones like Demons of Punjab and Rosa but they are outliers in the grand scheme of her run sadly.
Series 12 had a decent-pretty good stretch there in the middle, but on first watch I thought A) it wasn't \*that\* bad and B) It still wasn't all that great.
I agree with this. Honestly, my biggest issues with the chibnal era have continued on in the latest series, especially the lack of development and forced intimacy. I at least felt like 13 had to earn the trust of her fam, and there were slower moments where I got to see into their dynamics. With 15 and ruby, much as I think they've done a great job acting, I felt like all the bonding and connection was relegated off screen.
In my 35+ years as a fan, the current era of Doctor Who is always the worst one, until it becomes the cherished past
I agree. We’re in the minority. But I nearly walked away at the mess that was Clara’s last season,Bill, Capaldi and the ridiculously “look at me I’m clever” hard work of Moffat’s writing. I got back with 13 what I was there for. Fun stories with a great cast. I really liked it.
Jodie had everything to be one of the best Dr's to grace our screen. The writing destroyed her tenure, and what could have been
13s era literally carried the show through covid sp like it deserves respect for that
I think it was a combination of changing the Doctors gender which offended a lot of people, and Chibnall was just really uneven in his handling of the show. Also Jodie Whitakers Doctor seemed kind of silly and never really put across a deep abiding alien intelligence the way Capaldi and Smith did really well. I liked Whitaker a lot in Broadchurch and I had super high hopes. I'll admit I cut her a lot of slack for the first season or so. But in the end I'm not sure if it was Chibnalls showrunning, Whitakers acting or just the blonde hair but I don't like her Doctor. She had kind of a "Gee whilikers kids lets go learn about DINOSAURS this week!" vibe to her portrayal. When she came down to earth to be serious it never came across as serious to me, but just a normal person being normal. Not OMG we might all die serious. That said there were good stories. Demons of the Punjab was great. I even liked some parts of the whole Flux thing. Actually most of it until the final episode. btw did you know Swarm was Sam Spruell. The undead mercenary guy in a kilt from Fargo? Blew my mind! The previous series with the timeless child is where Chibnall earned all his hate. That was a pretty big retcon. And a lot of folks, myself included, don't like the Doctor being made into a superhero. I think Jodie got a lot of undeserved vitriol for that. As if the actors have any control over such story points?! But like I always say, I don't hate any Doctor Who, I'm happy if it's still on the air in some form. I'm only ever disappointed.
>The previous series with the timeless child is where Chibnall earned all his hate. That was a pretty big retcon I just rewatched The Day of the Doctor. At the end, Matt Smith's Doctor is implicitly told by his future self to go looking for Galifrey. Is it possible to reconcile this with destroying Galifrey in Timeless Children? To me this is a bigger issue. That was the 50th anniversary special, and as things stand, some of it now makes little sense. >When she came down to earth to be serious it never came across as serious to me, but just a normal person being normal. I felt there was a good portrayal of confident bravery. Right, this is dangerous, I am going to walk right up to it. Can't think of a specific example, but that was my impression.
It's definitely the worst Modern era, but I still thoroughly enjoyed it. Lots of great stuff, with a few botched ideas and mid episodes. If nothing else, the Spy Master was absolutely fantastic, and has my favorite character arc of any Master incarnation.
I loved Jodie's take on the doctor, loved the companions but she didn't need so many all the time.
I honestly liked it better than this last stretch that RTD made. With the exception of 73 yards which I think is a great episode.
We’ve officially started the “new show runner bad, last show runner good”
Traditions must be upheld If the current showrunner was not the worst showrunner it would not be Doctor Who. Think that a sheen of nostalgia helps. I also legitimately did not mind Chibnall
This era isn't perfect but in those 8 episodes we got a few genuinely great ones whilst nothing in the previous era hit that high
I am also a 13 enjoyer. I think some of the political statements by the show are muddled and/or hamfisted (even though I'm a self declared progressive), and the companions could use more characterization. Beyond those issues, I enjoy it a lot and re-watch a few episodes on occasion. Often times the criticisms get squished down into "bad writing, good actors." This doesn't really elaborate on what people found wrong with the show so let me try to summarize and explain why it was overblown. The biggest issue with it is this: the dialogue and writing make the Doctor both aloof and disinterested in letting the companions do much. This leads to a lot of the complaints of the era "not feeling like Doctor Who." Moffat and RTD are really good at creating unique character moments where we learn what the characters FEEL. Chibnall was evidently less interested in that for the main cast in Series 11. There are moments of learning their feelings, but often they end up as broad stroke concerns about their circumstances/surroundings rather than saying anything about the characters themselves. Then Series 12 has to make up for that lack of character depth, and we end up with a muddled idea of who each main cast member is by the end of Series 12. This all culminates in the audience (who is used to strong character writing) just not wanting to invest in the character arcs. When the stories are mostly about the places and people the characters meet rather than the characters we want to know about, people get annoyed and bored. One of my favorite moments in the entire 13 era is highly underrated: When 13 is giving a speech to King James in The Witchfinders. I felt like that tapped into a lot of the angst around the COVID era beautifully, even if it was written before the pandemic. I wish we had gotten more of that - 13 being reassuring and earnest in her beliefs about human nature.
13s run has a big problem beyond the actual plot concepts: The Doctor has almost no sense of agency. She is along for the ride as the villains and all the companions move the pieces on the board, so to speak. Then it culminates in the "Ah-ha!" at the last moment instead of feeling like she led the plot to the climax. We can go on and on about the plots and the good ideas, the flaws, so forth and so on. The writing style let Jodie down and I don't put any of the faults of her run on her. You can't have such manic stories and scenes and expect her to be able to do anything with it.
I felt that Jodi was miscast. It seemed to me she was playing what she thought the doctor was based on affections and over generalized characterizations of previous doctors. She never embodied her own doctor. Her acting felt forced to me. Even her outfit was a weird mishmash of other doctors rather than being her own. I felt like she was also very cardboard, like everything was delivered with no animation or emotion. And, there was SO MUCH EXPOSITION. Exposition can be boring enough, but with a monotone actor it is unbearable. I thought the master character was okay, but that actor seemed to be a little over the top some didn’t really enjoy his episodes either. Again, I felt like the actor playing the master knew the master was supposed to be maniacal so he just played “crazy”. Michele Gomez’s Missy was just so out of this world, and as lulu as her character was she was never flipping out spittle flying from her mouth etc. Finally, I’m not sure about the huge ensemble of companions. Things get so split up and there isn’t time for any one character to have proper screen time, plus the doctor ends up being off screen too much. To be fair I did not like Matt Smith or Amy when they first came in, but found the episodes watchable. These I did force myself to watch twice over, but it was very painful. Eventually I ended up liking Matt Smith and can tolerate Amy/Rory although I still don’t love Amy, but I just can’t get on board w Jodi’s doctor and I don’t really give a toss about any of her companions except maybe Grant. My favorite episode is the Christmas one in the storage place, that actually felt like a Doctor Who episode to me. I loved Eccleston’s run and Capaldi’s as well, I think David Tennat is a brilliant Doctor and has some of the best episodes, but sometimes the Master storyline for his run wears on me. I have a hard time picking between them, for a favorite.
When people heard that 13 was going to be a woman the haters poured out of the woodwork. Once the season started they were bound and determined to still hate 13, but blamed it on the acting and the writing, because they got so much pushback on their « I hate girls » attitude. Doctor Who has always had uneven characters and uneven episodes. It boggles my mind to see how much energy some people put into hating so much of it.
It's a pretty consistent 6 out 10 with a few 7 mixed in there(I genuinely like some of historical one offs like the partition one,the witch hunters one,the Mary Shelly one) I also think that era master was quality and I give points to who ever cast Bradley Walsh it's really surreal watching the guy off the chase be in most episodes but it strangely works.
13 as a character was horrendously written. Dr Exposition. It was really hard to watch.
This was art house Dr Who. It didn't always make sense, and a lot of people didn't like it, but at least it made you feel something
> but at least it made you feel something Bored?
Did it? I’d honestly argue the biggest flaw in the series is that it *didn’t* make me feel anything. It was missing so many of the emotional beats from previous eras.
It sincerely rarely made me feel anything
I feel the exact and complete opposite.
...bored, baffled and frustrated mostly...
Art house? Come on man it's not that deep
It really grew on me. I’m about to rewatch it so I’m interested to see how I feel about the second time though. I rewatched moffats seasons and I thought those were much worse this time. My third watch after maybe 5 years of not seeing it. For lack of a better word it felt really “cringe”. Jodie’s doctor seasons were different, they were going for a different feel and I think that alone was upsetting. It certainly has weak spots but I liked it tangentially.
i need to watch again too. maybe i'll start over from eccleston while we wait for the xmas special
For me it's nothing to do with Jodie, who is undoubtedly The Doctor in her presence and execution of the lines. It falls purely on the script, which basically meanders along touching on somewhat good notes, but largely breezing past what could've been highlights in the series. I only just started watching Whittaker's era last week, and Arachnids in the UK gave me the first of what I suspect will be many WTF moments (though it was generally a decent episode). Toward the end, the Trump-lite character shot a suffering spider, even snidely calling it a mercy killing, while it was suffocating, as 13 protested to keep it alive. She'd already acknowledged it was too late to save them, so the Doctor decides that letting them suffer an agonising death was the better evil than just putting them out of their misery? No single Doctor before 13 would make that same choice, and yet Chibnall tries to convince us that that is what she would do. To me there's too many moments of just misunderstanding who the character is, the world and the house that Davies and Moffat had built beforehand.
Chibnall did Jodie wrong. Too many companions so no one cares about them. Did you know everyone should be shocked the Doctor is a woman? Cause there were oodles of episode where that happened. Yawn. Doctor Who has a history of strong female characters. The way the Doctor had to use tween slang was just….awful. Were they going for cool aunt cause all it gave was older person trying to use slang, fam. Cringe. And 13 was…weirdly dumb? You mean to tell me The Doctor who has travelled all of time and space took a black man in southern Rosa Parks time to a diner and was SHOCKED he got slapped. And then the FLUX rewriting canon in some weird way that made little sense. There’s more on why it sucked but I’ll stop here. And that’s just one example of how the Doctor forgot history.
The episodes that work, really work, but the ones that don't see a snore. And I thought the entire Flux and basically every special were duds.
[удалено]
I love my Jo-day, and I love her with Yaz. I was so happy when Ryan called Graham “granddad,” and the Flux was fascinating. I think The Witchfinder might be my favorite. Siobhan Finneran and Alan Cumming were terrific. Oh and Dan with his dads wok! You’re right, she is underrated. A LOT of the wacko section of the fandom was really really pissed that we had a woman play the Doctor.
13 would have been great but the flux took too long
I recently caught up after years of wanting to watch and never getting around to it. the only context I knew of, is that her run was "bad" (as to not spoil myself) but Jodie's doctor honestly is up there with Matt Smith in my eyes. minus the flux fiasco I genuinely miss her.
I actually did enjoy the companions at the time, even if they don't have a lot to do. But the Doctor's flip flopping morals and huge changes to canon were what ruined it for me. The episodes were okay, just mostly boring.
It deserves everything it gets. Chibnal almost killed the entire franchise - why do you think they got RTD back? They could have got anyone but they got RTD.
Briefly my problems with it. 1. Childish episodes with one-line morale and meaning that Chibnall push through your throat. 2. TC. 3. Inconsistent, undeveloped plots. What makes me angry - there was nice ideas, Jodie have potential, flux structure - is a great idea, even TC with caution and time dedicated to it - could be me of the greatest stories, but all this was buried under pile of garbage… And there is a chance that when sane showrunner will pitch such ideas he will hear that they did not work.
I think Jodie did what she could, but didn't have much to work with.
A lot of it just feels boring for me. Series 11-13 just felt like unseasoned chicken? Like okay it’s chicken, it is edible but there’s no flavor. It felt so modern without feeling like who at the same time. I do agree there were some highlights of stories, but it really felt like a slugfest getting through other episodes to get to the alright ones. I enjoyed some of the music, but the score didn’t really feel like much. I enjoyed series 14’s score significantly more. 14 has a score with presence, it’s felt and has purpose just as much as anything else does. I think Jodie was a phenomenal pick but the writing did her unbelievably dirty. Companions were half-baked, villains were forgettable (especially Dhawan’s annoying master), and the doctor herself had the great concept of being the most emotionally shut in doctor we’ve had without any nuance or resolution to it until 14 regened in to 15.