Its been years since ive played Origins but i didn't realise there were guards posted on the surface outside Orzammer. It could be that there was an agreement between Orzammer and some surface elves to have some surface protection.
On the other hand Origins was originally seen as a standalone game until the developers pivoted into sequels and along the way some lore got expanded but there are some inconsistant differences.
There’s certain exceptions to the no-surface rule. The dwarven army is marching on the surface to help against the blight without that making them all casteless (which of course would be the dumbest move ever). I’m thinking the door guards are probably allowed to spend a certain amount of time outside the gates as long as they don’t stray too far and return underground on a regular basis.
Considering they stand on a stone platform connected to the door they likely see the platform as part of Orzammer and thus they aren't technically leaving the city even if they are technically on the surface.
It's the type of mental gymnastics needed and expected from a society like theirs
Dwarves previously already turned casteless into golems, so technically, there is a position for them in the military! This might fall under very traditional practises, though.
You need to play as a mage, side with the mages in Broken Circle, and either survive killing the Archdemon and ask for the circle's independence as a boon, or die killing the Archdemon, after which the reigning monarch will grant the circle's independence at your funeral. Then you get this slide:
>“The young templar Cullen never quite recovered from his ordeal. After months of attempting to convince his superiors that the tower was still a danger, he finally snapped and killed three apprentices before being stopped by his fellow templars. Eventually, Cullen escaped from prison, a madman and a threat to any mage he encountered.”
Yeah, that epilogue slide (or rumor) doesn't put Cullen in the best light, *especially* when playing as a female Amell/Surana. He's tormented by his infatuation for her and it wouldn't surprise me if she was next on his hit list during his killing spree.
But then that was retconned by DA2 and Cullen gets a redemption arc in DAI so I guess female Amells/Suranas don't have to worry anymore.
I should think so. It doesn't explicitly say if he's killed more mages after escaping prison but it's certainly implied that he probably will/has since he's a "madman" on the loose and threat to any mage he encounters.
Bhelen is so hard to justify choosing when playing an Aeducan Warden. Yes, there's an argument for keeping the Aeducan bloodline on the throne and being impressed with him for his political prowess, or looking at the bigger picture etc etc. But I can't roleplay a character who can be the "bigger person" after being framed for fratricide and then sentenced to die. For me at least it requires suspending disbelief and metagaming since he **is** the better choice for Orzammar.
It's the biggest dilemma I have as a Dwarf Noble. More than the other choices in the game.
I'm playing an Aeducan right now and the way I headcanon'd it was that my HoF grew up knowing Harrowmount and knew that his politics would just set Orzammar back. Especially as she's met people on the surface and became a more tolerant person. So it was hard, but ultimately Aeducan decided that Bhelen was what's best for Orzammar.
I think the biggest reality check was when Bhelen welcomed her back as a princess of Orzammar and she realized she's changed too much to partake in the cutthroat politics anymore.
Like I mentioned in a different reply, I think a lot of my dilemma in the Dwarf Noble origin comes from my tendency to self insert when roleplaying.
It's hard for me to get into the mindset of someone who could overlook (but not necessarily forgive) being framed and sentenced to death by a brother who manipulated and pretended to love me. And then by siding with Bhelen, backstabbing the one person—Harrowmont—who is risking his life to defend me after the betrayal. Harrowmont's a terrible leader for Orzammar, and the Aeducan HoF may know that, but still.
It's a testament to the writing of the Dwarf Noble origin that it still bothers me.
My canonical HoF is an Aeducan, and I roleplayed him as being a sort of cynical politician. Orzammar politics are famously cutthroat, and my HoF respects Bhelen's manoeuvres. Additionally, my HoF's relationship with Trian was hardly positive, so the fact that Bhelen had him killed does not bother him much. My HoF made other choices in the game in line with this personality, such as hardening Alistair and marrying him to Anora, and recruiting Loghain into the Grey Wardens.
I have a tendency to self insert when roleplaying and despite all of Harrowmont's (many) flaws I feel bad about backstabbing the one person who's defending the Aeducan Warden after Bhelen's betrayal. I love the Dwarf Noble origin but, oof, maybe Bhelen was right when he told me (Aeducan) that I wasn't cut out for dwarven politics.
I don't see marrying Alistair to Anora and recruiting Loghain to be Archdemon fodder as bad, though. Or at least I see it as a lesser evil. Alistair may hate your guts but at least he isn't dead or a wandering drunk. I can do that.
I actually prefer keeping Loghain alive, he's too fascinating a character to kill off in Origins, and the conclusion of his story in Inquisition with his sacrifice in the Fade is perhaps my favourite inter-game narrative in the series: from no one, to hero, to villain, to hero.
Loghain is an interesting villain but just like my dilemma in the Dwarf Noble origin, he's gotta go (i.e. loses his head at the Landsmeet) when playing as a City Elf whose father was almost sold to Tevinter slavers. That said, he does have a surprising amount of content and banter/dialogue for a companion who's recruited at the last minute.
His banter with Zevran always cracks me up.
***Zevran**: You know who I am, yes? I was one of the Crows you hired to kill the Grey Wardens.*
***Loghain**: I thought you looked familiar.*
***Zevran**: Well, I just wanted to report that I failed my mission, Loghain.*
***Loghain**: You don't say.*
***Zevran**: I'm terribly broken up over it.*
***Loghain**: Hmm. Well thank you kindly for informing me.*
An interesting villain in the fallen hero vein. I actually flip-flop on whether to let him live. While playing the games, I headcanon that all the other origins survive and join the party, which ends up flipping me over to Bhelen's side, for Brosca's (for Rica and her son) and Aeducan's (for his son by Mardy) sakes, if nothing else. And in Loghain's case, as well as Alistair, Tabris wants Loghain dead for selling her people to Tevinter slavers, and Cousland for enabling Howe. Plus, I like Stroud's role as the Warden Contact (https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/12meaz4/spoilers\_all\_why\_i\_think\_stroud\_works\_best\_as\_the/).
I feel the same way. My original plan was to leave Hawke in the Fade and keep Loghain, but changed my mind after re-watching Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End, and hearing a line from Barbossa:
>Apologies, Your Majesty. Too long my fate has not been in me own hands. No longer.
I try to roleplay when playing my wardens, but it's incredibly difficult to keep my own personal feelings (I take honestly, family and loyalty very seriously) out when it comes to Orzammar, especially as a Dwarf Noble. If I side with Harrowmont, I feel bad for Rica (the Dwarf Commoner's sister) and her baby, even if they don't show up in-game. If I side with Bhelen, I feel bad for Harrowmont and his family when Bhelen systematically wipes them out (except Renvil if you help him in DA2).
I just can't help seeing similarities between Bhelen and Marjolaine (and the stories of the Dwarf Noble and Leliana), and since I always kill the latter, I feel like a hypocrite if I ever decide to side with the former.
And ooh boy is Marjolaine (who I call Margarine in my head) a horrible piece of work just like Bhelen. Both are paranoid narcissists who manipulate and easily dispose of people close to them when they prove to be "inconvenient".
Other origins I can look past that when picking Bhelen since things get so much worse for the casteless when Harrowmont is in charge. Margarine always dies. She doesn't help anyone.
I play it as my Aeducan respecting his maneuvering. It helps if you make sure to fight Trian yourself so you actually are the one to kill him and it’s less of a set up. Plus you can get an odd sort of revenge in being the one to actually put him on the throne leaving him owing everything to you.
Honestly trying to keep the game saddled to three old games with massive world changing decisions was always a mistake if cool, like we saw the problems in Mass Effect 2 (letting the space government die and replacing it with an all human one should have been huge but wasnt etc). I expect that Behlen or Harrowmont is dead and that Behlen's young son with Rica is alive and in charge but the assembly is greatly empowered and has reversed many of Behlens reforms.
I feel like reversing all the good stuff that could happen just because it might not probably wouldn't be a good idea. If there is a continuity to the games, I'd rather they didn't assume worst case scenario if there's no player way to influence it.
Its been years since ive played Origins but i didn't realise there were guards posted on the surface outside Orzammer. It could be that there was an agreement between Orzammer and some surface elves to have some surface protection. On the other hand Origins was originally seen as a standalone game until the developers pivoted into sequels and along the way some lore got expanded but there are some inconsistant differences.
There’s certain exceptions to the no-surface rule. The dwarven army is marching on the surface to help against the blight without that making them all casteless (which of course would be the dumbest move ever). I’m thinking the door guards are probably allowed to spend a certain amount of time outside the gates as long as they don’t stray too far and return underground on a regular basis.
Considering they stand on a stone platform connected to the door they likely see the platform as part of Orzammer and thus they aren't technically leaving the city even if they are technically on the surface. It's the type of mental gymnastics needed and expected from a society like theirs
Surface elves
Oh my gosh!!! Haha i meant surface dwarves!
To some real dwarves surface "dwarves" are basically just elves anyway :).
Dwarves previously already turned casteless into golems, so technically, there is a position for them in the military! This might fall under very traditional practises, though.
wait hold on, how do you get the cullen becomes a serial killer slide, cuz ive never heard of that one, and ive played DAO like 6,000 times
You need to play as a mage, side with the mages in Broken Circle, and either survive killing the Archdemon and ask for the circle's independence as a boon, or die killing the Archdemon, after which the reigning monarch will grant the circle's independence at your funeral. Then you get this slide: >“The young templar Cullen never quite recovered from his ordeal. After months of attempting to convince his superiors that the tower was still a danger, he finally snapped and killed three apprentices before being stopped by his fellow templars. Eventually, Cullen escaped from prison, a madman and a threat to any mage he encountered.”
Yeah, that epilogue slide (or rumor) doesn't put Cullen in the best light, *especially* when playing as a female Amell/Surana. He's tormented by his infatuation for her and it wouldn't surprise me if she was next on his hit list during his killing spree. But then that was retconned by DA2 and Cullen gets a redemption arc in DAI so I guess female Amells/Suranas don't have to worry anymore.
does that make him a serial killer? interesting thing nonetheless(i usually do side with the mages because f cullen)
I should think so. It doesn't explicitly say if he's killed more mages after escaping prison but it's certainly implied that he probably will/has since he's a "madman" on the loose and threat to any mage he encounters.
fair enough, i took the wording like he snapped and killed 3 mages one time, not that he was always murdering my fellow mages
I guess it could be ready that way. I took it that he will continue killing mages since he never stopped seeing them all as dangerous.
Bhelen is so hard to justify choosing when playing an Aeducan Warden. Yes, there's an argument for keeping the Aeducan bloodline on the throne and being impressed with him for his political prowess, or looking at the bigger picture etc etc. But I can't roleplay a character who can be the "bigger person" after being framed for fratricide and then sentenced to die. For me at least it requires suspending disbelief and metagaming since he **is** the better choice for Orzammar. It's the biggest dilemma I have as a Dwarf Noble. More than the other choices in the game.
I'm playing an Aeducan right now and the way I headcanon'd it was that my HoF grew up knowing Harrowmount and knew that his politics would just set Orzammar back. Especially as she's met people on the surface and became a more tolerant person. So it was hard, but ultimately Aeducan decided that Bhelen was what's best for Orzammar. I think the biggest reality check was when Bhelen welcomed her back as a princess of Orzammar and she realized she's changed too much to partake in the cutthroat politics anymore.
Like I mentioned in a different reply, I think a lot of my dilemma in the Dwarf Noble origin comes from my tendency to self insert when roleplaying. It's hard for me to get into the mindset of someone who could overlook (but not necessarily forgive) being framed and sentenced to death by a brother who manipulated and pretended to love me. And then by siding with Bhelen, backstabbing the one person—Harrowmont—who is risking his life to defend me after the betrayal. Harrowmont's a terrible leader for Orzammar, and the Aeducan HoF may know that, but still. It's a testament to the writing of the Dwarf Noble origin that it still bothers me.
My canonical HoF is an Aeducan, and I roleplayed him as being a sort of cynical politician. Orzammar politics are famously cutthroat, and my HoF respects Bhelen's manoeuvres. Additionally, my HoF's relationship with Trian was hardly positive, so the fact that Bhelen had him killed does not bother him much. My HoF made other choices in the game in line with this personality, such as hardening Alistair and marrying him to Anora, and recruiting Loghain into the Grey Wardens.
I have a tendency to self insert when roleplaying and despite all of Harrowmont's (many) flaws I feel bad about backstabbing the one person who's defending the Aeducan Warden after Bhelen's betrayal. I love the Dwarf Noble origin but, oof, maybe Bhelen was right when he told me (Aeducan) that I wasn't cut out for dwarven politics. I don't see marrying Alistair to Anora and recruiting Loghain to be Archdemon fodder as bad, though. Or at least I see it as a lesser evil. Alistair may hate your guts but at least he isn't dead or a wandering drunk. I can do that.
I actually prefer keeping Loghain alive, he's too fascinating a character to kill off in Origins, and the conclusion of his story in Inquisition with his sacrifice in the Fade is perhaps my favourite inter-game narrative in the series: from no one, to hero, to villain, to hero.
Loghain is an interesting villain but just like my dilemma in the Dwarf Noble origin, he's gotta go (i.e. loses his head at the Landsmeet) when playing as a City Elf whose father was almost sold to Tevinter slavers. That said, he does have a surprising amount of content and banter/dialogue for a companion who's recruited at the last minute. His banter with Zevran always cracks me up. ***Zevran**: You know who I am, yes? I was one of the Crows you hired to kill the Grey Wardens.* ***Loghain**: I thought you looked familiar.* ***Zevran**: Well, I just wanted to report that I failed my mission, Loghain.* ***Loghain**: You don't say.* ***Zevran**: I'm terribly broken up over it.* ***Loghain**: Hmm. Well thank you kindly for informing me.*
An interesting villain in the fallen hero vein. I actually flip-flop on whether to let him live. While playing the games, I headcanon that all the other origins survive and join the party, which ends up flipping me over to Bhelen's side, for Brosca's (for Rica and her son) and Aeducan's (for his son by Mardy) sakes, if nothing else. And in Loghain's case, as well as Alistair, Tabris wants Loghain dead for selling her people to Tevinter slavers, and Cousland for enabling Howe. Plus, I like Stroud's role as the Warden Contact (https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/12meaz4/spoilers\_all\_why\_i\_think\_stroud\_works\_best\_as\_the/).
I feel the same way. My original plan was to leave Hawke in the Fade and keep Loghain, but changed my mind after re-watching Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End, and hearing a line from Barbossa: >Apologies, Your Majesty. Too long my fate has not been in me own hands. No longer.
I try to roleplay when playing my wardens, but it's incredibly difficult to keep my own personal feelings (I take honestly, family and loyalty very seriously) out when it comes to Orzammar, especially as a Dwarf Noble. If I side with Harrowmont, I feel bad for Rica (the Dwarf Commoner's sister) and her baby, even if they don't show up in-game. If I side with Bhelen, I feel bad for Harrowmont and his family when Bhelen systematically wipes them out (except Renvil if you help him in DA2). I just can't help seeing similarities between Bhelen and Marjolaine (and the stories of the Dwarf Noble and Leliana), and since I always kill the latter, I feel like a hypocrite if I ever decide to side with the former.
And ooh boy is Marjolaine (who I call Margarine in my head) a horrible piece of work just like Bhelen. Both are paranoid narcissists who manipulate and easily dispose of people close to them when they prove to be "inconvenient". Other origins I can look past that when picking Bhelen since things get so much worse for the casteless when Harrowmont is in charge. Margarine always dies. She doesn't help anyone.
I play it as my Aeducan respecting his maneuvering. It helps if you make sure to fight Trian yourself so you actually are the one to kill him and it’s less of a set up. Plus you can get an odd sort of revenge in being the one to actually put him on the throne leaving him owing everything to you.
Honestly trying to keep the game saddled to three old games with massive world changing decisions was always a mistake if cool, like we saw the problems in Mass Effect 2 (letting the space government die and replacing it with an all human one should have been huge but wasnt etc). I expect that Behlen or Harrowmont is dead and that Behlen's young son with Rica is alive and in charge but the assembly is greatly empowered and has reversed many of Behlens reforms.
I feel like reversing all the good stuff that could happen just because it might not probably wouldn't be a good idea. If there is a continuity to the games, I'd rather they didn't assume worst case scenario if there's no player way to influence it.