There was an old thread in the Bioware forums where Mary Kirby (among other things, she wrote Sten and a lot of the Qunari lore):
>It depends on how impared they are. If they're still mentally able, they wind up training the 12-year-olds who are assigned to their old role. If they're not mentally able, or are too physically impared to function without a lot of help, they're looked after by the Tamassrans.
\[...\]
It's the same mentality the Qunari have toward mages, really. A person can't help being maimed, or suffering dementia, any more than they can help being a mage. They are honored for their *willingness* to serve their people as best they can, even if their body betrays them. Compassion aside, most of them kill themselves. It causes serious emotional trauma to suddenly lose your entire identity.
([Source](https://web.archive.org/web/20160813002306/https://forum.bioware.com/topic/129021-questions-about-the-qunari/page-10#entry3301751))
Yes and no, seems like a nightmare to us given modern luxury but in world like dragon age its amazing for a lot of common folk.
Look at lets say a common alienage elf, your hated from birth by most your city. Forced to take shit jobs with the constant fear of being raped or killed by a noble knowing they face no consequence. Even if you do get lucky enough to own a business its likely going to sacked or burnt in first riot that happens in town.
But under the Qun they wont look down upon you, so long as you prove yourself capable you can get almost any job you want at the sacrifice of a few personal freedoms. You can live in peace knowing no one will harm you based off wealth or status, that your lineage wont be judged.
Its by no means a perfect system but there is a reason why so many have turned to it
I understand your main point, but you cannot get “any job you want” or even close to it. You don’t pick your job. You are assigned a job and role in society. That’s your lot.
Thing is, the same is true for most people in Thedas unless you're highborn, good at killing, or really damn lucky. That Orlesian merchant in Denerim square certainly didn't choose to leave her country, she had to because of a chevalier's harassment; the elves certainly didn't want an alienage to be their lot in the world, they stay there because they're second-rate citizens by virtue of their lineage.
There's no freedom in the Qun, but in Thedas all most people have is an illusion of freedom. There can be no real freedom in a world so unequal and so shaped by prejudices.
You can by their rules sorta, if you can prove your skill and worth in a role they more then likely will assign you to that role. While the Qunari tend to not individualize they do realize individual strengths. Much like how bull became a spy despite his bigger size. If you know how to bake or sow clothes its more then likely thats the roll they will give you. They are efficient motherfuckers
You don’t get to train for any job you want, so your proficiency is likely to be in whatever trade you previously occupied. That may not be what you *want*.
As someone who usually rolls a mage in Dragon Age games, the Qun has never been very appealing to me, considering what kind of “role” my characters would serve in it.
If you're born into the Qun sure. If you're an alienage elf or any other adult attempting to enter you're given a job based on your proficiency. Even the children are at least on paper given a job based on proficiency, it'd just obviously children aren't really proficient at anything so they're taught something more in line with what's needed.
Again, that's only for Qun born individuals. Those entering the Qun from outside are placed based on their proficiency. Even Qun born individuals have Aqun-Athlok where they can be re-gendered based on proficiency and even barring that all 3 Salasari are co-ed despite on paper being gender specific.
No, it's for all of them. You're sorted based on your gender, then your profiency. It's only if you're of exceptional skill on something that your gender isn't meant to that you are declared Aqun-Athlok.
As for the Salasari, the Arishok is always male, and the Arigena is always female. Only the Ariqun can be either (and they're usually female due to the fact that one of the two main branches under her can only be women).
Being able to decide who you are and what you want to do is a relatively modern thing in human history; for most of our existence your job and role has been determined by your gender and what your parents did. Only exceptional aptitude or luck allowed you to change that.
Then it changed to where there was a general "Band" of jobs and roles you could take to suit your preferences, but there was still very little mobility up or down.
It's really only modern times where you're free to do what you want to.
But you're assigned a role that *suits* you and your skillset. Lots of people want to be rock stars, not many people are suited for the gig. It's not like they randomly assing you to some kind of drudgery. The whole point is they want you to go where you're going to do best and be the most useful, and knowing you're fulfilling your purpose is supposed to make you content.
Course people don't work that way but their theory is sound.
If you're a fereldan peasant farmer, your odds of being anything else are pretty damn small. But you don't have the benefit of being surrounded by a society designed to support and care for you, like Qunari are. No system is a perfect one but in Thedas they all certainly have their pros and cons.
The thing that really pushes the Qun into the "bad" column is the fact that they have fucking thought police lol
Their theory isn't sound. The Tamasran assigns you are role, she knows best. What? It's a role you hate? We don't care that's what you have talent for based on our perfect system. You still aren't convinced you like the perfect job we asigned to you? Ok, now we tortu.. I mean reeducate you till you are fixed and start liking the role that you are good for.
There are a lot more jobs in a rural setting than you think. There isn't a wide variety of choice but there is one.
The Qun doesn't care abouth you, it doesn't support you, it uses you. The problem with the Qun doesn't start at thought police. The issue starts with how they fundamentally don't see people as people, but as resources and tools.
Operating under the assumption that members of the collective will feel happiest and most fulfilled by being of greatest use to the collective is the theory they're operating under, and since that's the core guiding principle, yes, from their perspective, it is sound.
And this is opposed to, for example, feudalism? Most Orlesian nobles don't think of peasants, human or otherwise, as being anything more than resources or tools, either.
The Qun is obviously extremely oppressive but that oppression is certainly no *more* malicious than any other system's.
>Operating under the assumption that members of the collective will feel happiest and most fulfilled by being of greatest use to the collective is the theory they're operating under, and since that's the core guiding principle, yes, from their perspective, it is sound.
And their perspective is fundamentally wrong, and I don't care.
>And this is opposed to, for example, feudalism? Most Orlesian nobles don't think of peasants, human or otherwise, as being anything more than resources or tools, either.
The individual noble might not see them as a person, but the whole core ideology isn't build on "these people are tools" in this case. That's a big differance.
>The Qun is obviously extremely oppressive but that oppression is certainly no more malicious than any other system's.
Yes it is. You have less freedom than anywhere else, it's more expansionist than any other nation, it's less tolerant to other cultures than any other nation, it fundamentally doesn't see people as people, and it doesn't even allow to think you have it bad.
Buddy you need to go touch some grass. You seem to be taking this extremely personally and getting really worked up. I am at 0 risk of falling prey to a cult lol I'm fine. I don't even like the Qun???? Jfc.
which is the same as in every other society in thedas. at least the qun assigns you based on your skill and aptitude instead of arbitrary stuff like race, caste, or who you parents are
I don’t recall the government forcing Leliana to become a lay sister or prepare to take vows. She also didn’t need permission to leave.
There are certainly issues in Thedas at large, but the notion that *every* society assigns roles that one generally cannot have reassigned to *every* person is just incorrect. Even mages can make choices within most circles. Wynne asked Irving (another mage, mind) to leave the tower thus changing her role. She also didn’t have to appeal the government. Under the qun, there’s no appeal and no ask. She’s just chained. Literally.
Tbf, Wynne can only leave because she is a senior enchanter and a highly regarded and trusted member of the Circle. Not only that, but she's leaving to join a Grey Warden during a Blight, very extenuating circumstances.
Most mages who aren't at the top of the hierarchy don't have the same freedom to act independently and would most certainly have to appeal the Templars for a leave of absence.
She's also still very much chained. A phylactery is a literal chain held by the Templars and the Chantry.
My point is that extenuating circumstances matter. The qun does not allow for such. We also see in Awakening that a warden asking nicely can be refused and forced to utilize conscription, which we don’t do with Wynne.
Moreover, the decisions are more spread out. Irving makes the call that Wynne can go. She may have a phylactery, but she’s not literally physically chained, and she does not require a handler. The circles aren’t *good*, but what the qun demands is far worse.
our companions are by and large exceptions to the rule of the general population in thedas. most people don’t go on grand adventures or have the ability to change their lot in life. everyone in the origin stories are relegated to their fates, for example. serfdom, slavery, and economic coercion make it so most people stay in their assigned social roles.
but if you wanna talk about our companions, alistair talks about how his fate as a non-important-person was drilled into him as a kid, then he was forced into being a templar and was only ‘saved’ by a different order that he can’t escape. later on, he can be forced into being king because of his blood, not his skill. ohghren was forced to be a warrior since he was born into that caste. zevran was forced to be a slave and a crow, and even after the game says there’s really nothing else he can do. leliana did have some heavy consequences for leaving marjolaine’s service, and even after she’s free, she *still* has to do the exact same work for divine justinia!
morrigan doesn’t really count since she’s not part of normal society, but even *she* was forced to live as a witch of the wilds, and forced to come with us on our quest purely due to who her mom is.
even the warden can’t pick “whatever job they want”—they are forced into being a grey warden by duncan, and can’t change that.
obviously the qun is horrible if you’re a mage or disagree with the tamassrans, but it’s a lot more complex than JUST being bad
Most of the examples you list are people being affected by others’ actions as opposed to government orders. Isolde is the reason Alastair is sent to the chantry. His being king is player-dictated and can be something he wants. He has multiple outcomes. Zevran is certainly a victim, but there’s nothing ordaining his actions besides the Crows hunting him. If romanced, Zevran is traveling with his lover to cure them. Leliana chose to travel with Marjolaine, to become a lay sister, and to work for the Divine later.
I will give you that the dwarven caste system is unfortunate and rigid, but the player has the opportunity to work towards dismantling that. Additionally, dwarves have the option of going to the surface, which certainly comes with sacrifice and limitation, but it is an option.
None of these examples compare to the rigidity of the qun. Conscription into the only army capable of stopping an existential threat is the only thing you’ve listed where there is literally no option, and that’s *not controlled by the governments.*
So, yes. Problematic systems abound. They still do not near universally assign roles with the same rigid immobility.
Also, I never said the qun is just bad. I said I understood the point being made but that one cannot choose any job one wants. One cannot choose at all.
>Most of the examples you list are people being affected by others’ actions as opposed to government orders.
i can agree with this, in the rest of thedas the coersion is more unwritten social and economic rules, not direct government orders. I'd argue that something being codified by government vs unwritten but still enforced is largely the same outcome wise, though obviously there's a change in dynamic. that difference is imo what makes the qun so interesting.
>Isolde is the reason Alastair is sent to the chantry.
in this case though, isolde *is* a government officer as an Arlessa. Eamon telling alistair he's never gonna be in charge of anything, then pushing him to be king based on arbitrary blood, is also a governmental decision.
>His being king is player-dictated and can be something he wants. He has multiple outcomes. .... Leliana chose to travel with Marjolaine, to become a lay sister, and to work for the Divine later.
it doesn't matter if they enjoyed it or wanted it, it's still pushed on them in the same way the Qun is. Iron Bull and Sten both really enjoy, want, and openly embrace their roles under the qun. but they were still put there under someone else's influence. if Alistair embracing becoming king is free choice, then so is Bull embracing being a ben-hassrath.
>Conscription into the only army capable of stopping an existential threat is the only thing you’ve listed where there is literally no option, and that’s *not controlled by the governments.*
Duncan invoking a legal right respected and enforced by every government seems pretty governmentally controlled to me.
But Isolde doesn’t send Alistair to the chantry as a government official. Eamon does it because he’s a coward who can’t stand up to his wife, and she as someone who can’t get past her own insecurities.
Yes. Alistair’s lineage affects his potential outcomes. He may never be pressured to be king. He may assert being king himself. But the point is that having *some* possibilities is different than having *one*.
Also, Bull has had to be tortured into accepting his role. I wouldn’t count on that example.
Grey Wardens are not government officials. That matters. They also deal with a unique existential threat, which also matters. But the Grey Wardens can conscript *anyone*. They actually *cause* role changes. You can’t change back, but again, one change is more than none.
Again, I am not saying everyone can do anything. I’ve said the opposite several times in fact. But an interplay of various social and political systems influencing or determining people’s outcomes is still very different than a single government group breeding, raising, and deciding a permanent role for *every single person*.
>Nanny Goodwin lay on the hard stones of the [Kirkwall](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Kirkwall) docks until the sailors left with her purse. As she struggled to her feet, a large grey hand reached down to help her. It was one of the [Qunari](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Qunari), the great horned giants who had come to live in the city.
>"I thank you," said Nanny Goodwin hesitantly, looking for her satchel. "I did not know the docks were so dangerous, or I would have asked one of Lord G\_\_\_'s guards to accompany me as I bought healing herbs for the children."
>"You are a [tamassran](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Tamassran)," said the Qunari. "Under [the Qun](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/The_Qun), no sailor would accost you. Why are you here?"
>"I am but Lord G\_\_\_'s nanny," Nanny Goodwin said, "and Lord G\_\_\_ did not believe me when I told him that the children needed healing herbs, so I was forced to buy them myself."
>"Under the Qun," said the Qunari, "tamassrans are trusted and listened to when caring for the children, and any healing herbs they needed would be provided. Why did Lord G\_\_\_ not attend your words?"
>"He is a noble," Nanny Goodwin said, "and I am merely a servant who cares for his children." She shifted her shawl to hide the bruises the sailors had given her, as well as the bruises Lord G\_\_\_ himself had left.
>"Under the Qun," said the Qunari, "all are equal, and no tamassran thinks herself a *mere* anything."
>Nanny Goodwin bid the Qunari good day and returned to [Hightown](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Hightown) with much to think about.
>—An excerpt from *The Lies of the Nobles, the Truth of the Qun*, author unknown
[Codex entry: Qunari Tamassrans | Dragon Age Wiki | Fandom](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Qunari_Tamassrans)
>
>**Anders**: So, the Qun, huh? You just... woke up one day and decided "what I really need in life is a big guy with horns telling me everything I should think?
>**Tallis**: Believe me, it wasn't that quick. Haven't you ever looked at the world and wondered where the justice is? The equality? In the Qun, everyone is welcome. Elves, humans. It doesn't matter what you look like, where you come from, there's a place for you.
>**Anders**: Unless you're a mage.
>**Tallis**: You won't find that anywhere in Thedas.
(just a couple favorite quotes)
Yup, it can be a bit hard to swallow given people are naturally ambitious and want to get to higher points of power but the quns not to bad for a lotta folks
The thing about the Qun is that it is determinedly foreign. That's plainly how it's written - to be strange and basically unthinkable to players. (See your argument with Zamo as Exhibit #1) Leliana is a fucking ex-assassin for a bunch of French aristocrats but she's written to be very cozy and warm to us. Sten? Sten is "alien" his culture and thought process is intended to be far removed from our own.
The Chantry is loaded with very familiar trappings and ideas. Even the bad ones are a bit more forgivable because they are familiar. A friend once summed up the Qun thusly:
>The Qun is profoundly illiberal, and its logic is opposed to pretty much everything any modern Western person is raised to believe in (individualism, freedom, ambition, democracy, etc.), but the undeniable charisma of the Arishok combined with the chaos and degeneracy of Kirkwall manages to make the Qun actually look quite tempting.
It's why the Qun is the most interesting thing about the Thedas setting - because it's actually written to be so very different. Fiction that makes you think outside the box is the best. That's why RPGs with choice are the best.
It's not strange and unthinkable... It's just Plato's Republic meets common cult tactics, it's very thinkable.
And it's not the same. There is a huge differance between Leliana and what the Qun does, spying is unsavory but it's not tought crimes..
Well yeah, most the world is like that. My brother in andraste almost every nation you go to is run by a cult. How about the rad avvars those dudes are chillin and its ran by a cult too Imao
I mean have you seeeeeen the weird shit the chantry does? They run most the world, and those fuckers got genocidal for a bit. Or how about the tevinter cults Imao
If Chantry was a cult people wouldn't be allowed to speak out against it or leave it ever, which they plainly are and can. Having weird traditions doesn't make you a cult, and that line of thinking can become bigoted quickly.
Lmao, that's not a cult lmao, weird shit doesn't equal cult lmao, and thoes cults aren't the ones officially running Tevinter lmao.
The Qun is the only poper large scale cult in Thedas, and it's just objectively bad.
Just because you don't like it, does not make something a cult vs proper wholesome other religion that is just as cult-y.
Saying that Qun is just 'good at hiding its badness', is kind of a bizarre take when Qunari very obviously tell you what Qun expects of you and what limits it sets. They aren't hiding shit. They probably don't go around advertising re-educators, but people rarely do that about our modern water treatment facilities either - that doesn't make them a secret, but an obvious public service.
In terms Converts not born and even then there is some chance of movement. Not to mention most non combat roles are usually in needing for more hands
Being say a baker, tailor or farmer will always find somewhere they are needed
Okay, but you are not free to do everything you want.
You fall in love, no chance, you want to have children? Your fatherhood ends with your orgasm and your motherhood ends with birth.
Yes and no, a lot of the Qun isn’t fully explored sadly but for the most part they have very weird terms of romance. You cannot exactly stop relationships from forming especially from converts but they feel that sex and love are wholly different things.
Its not a perfect system in which you do lose a lot of freedom but it can be much better then the hell that awaits you as a commoner in some kingdoms
You can't really easily become whoever you want in other Thedas nations either. I get the feeling that people often judge the Qun based on our, real society, not from in-universe Thedas perspective, which would be more appropriate.
"If a Fereldan servant decides that his life job is to... become a poet, he can follow that dream. It may be difficult, and he might fail, but the whole of society is not aligned to oppose him!" -Solas
But if a Ferelden mage doesn't want to join Circle, society will oppose him, Solas was also against Circles. If you are a poor Ferelden peasant born in a poor peasant family, you will most probably end as poor peasant and society won't help you. The dwarven caste system is even worse.
Dwarves can leave for the surface. Not the easiest choice, but they don't kill you for it.
And the circle is seen as a bad thing that now only exists as Vivienne's fiefdom. It's a false equivalence.
That's not necessarily true. Under the Qun, one's role is chosen for them by their tamassran, who knows them and their capabilities personally. So while the individual does not have agency, their tamassran is unlikely to saddle them with a role they obviously do not want unless there's a crisis. The Qunari are not "bred" for their roles, they don't seem to practice any kind of eugenics, seeing as even those with developmental disabilities are cared for. Things get a bit more complicated with the viddathari. We have a source that mentions them being forcibly reeducated to become spies, but it's from a Tevinter document so there's an obvious element of bias. A lot of viddathari end up in the Ben-Hassrath just by virtue of their role in broader Thedas, but I doubt the Qun pigeon-holes them to the same degree it does with born-and-raised Qunari. Since the viddathari tend to come to their tamassrans as fully fledged adults, they're probably going to be able to have some amount of influence over the tamassran's decision, assuming they demonstrate passion and aptitude for a certain skill. Hopefully we'll be able to get a closer look at edge cases like these in Veilguard.
> their tamassran is unlikely to saddle them with a role they obviously do not want unless there's a crisis.
Why assume the Qun's managers would be any more competent than managers literally anywhere else?
Because their society grants them a secure enough safety net to give a shit about their jobs, I'd think. It's not foolproof, but I'd feel a lot more passionate about working hard toward the betterment of society if I felt like it was objectively correct and was protecting me from a catastrophic misstep.
I think what throws me off about the Qun is that it is always presumed that the higher up, like the Ben Hasarath, the Tamassrans, etc, are all good, moral people who actually do what they say they will do. Sort of like how in Tevinter they publicly say no one uses blood magic, but behind closed doors, they all use it to get ahead.
I get the feeling that in a place like the Qun, it's actually far easier to be corrupt because it's built to have complete trust in those in power.
On the one hand, there's no way to really disprove that since we've not actually gotten to see what day-to-day life is like under the Qun for the average person. On the other hand, we've met one (technically two) of the Qunari heads of state, and they were patently incorruptible, even to their own detriment. But it's no secret the Ben-Hassrath generally do more harm than good - they do drug and torture people for the sake of reeducation, I'm not gonna defend that. I'm just saying the average person probably gives them a wide berth and tries to think about them as little as possible, like cops. Tamassran, meanwhile, seems to be synonymous with social worker. They do childcare, education, administration, sex work - we don't know how much those overlap for any individual tamassran, but my point is it's a broad job description. It would be foolish to assume they're all good, moral people but there's nothing to suggest they're unempathetic monsters either. I've worked alongside a lot of social workers myself, and the recurring theme with them has been people who mean well but are very, very tired, which impacts their ability to do their jobs. If you're selected to be a tamassran, it's probably because you've displayed an understanding, if not empathy, for other people. The Qunari, largely being free of the social/financial stressors of our society, can build an environment for people to hone their empathy as a skill without getting so exhausted. In that way, I think the system kind of self-selects for kinder people to rise in those positions. Again, that's not a guarantee of anything, but we know from Bull and Sten that the Qunari select leaders from those who step up and make tough decisions when the time comes, regardless of any other characteristics. Corruption isn't impossible, but the system seems to have more protections against it than any code of law in broader Thedas, in writing and in spirit. I'd be excited to be proven wrong in Veilguard though, assuming it's done well and isn't just a rug pull.
Interesting, thank you! Yeah, that's pretty damning, but she doesn't mention any reason why it's set up that way, which is what I was most interested in. Is there a codex entry that has more context, or do we just have to rely on word of god here?
I'd argue that you're always an outsider joining the qunari as different race. The fact that they can't even be called "qunari" which is follower of the qun. They have to be "Viddarathi." They may be treated the same in paper, but you're always going to be outside the qunari.
Hey now you cant forget the starvation, being used as a meat cannon or other personal abuses.
Shoulda added an s but yeah its def not a perfect or my preferred system but does make perfect sense for a fair few peeps scored by lifestyle
>Hey now you cant forget the starvation, being used as a meat cannon or other personal abuses.
Yes, I forgot you get all thoes under the Qun to. More reason why choise starvation instead.
Lol that's easy to say when you're not starving for your next meal, searching for a place to live or wondering if you'll see the tomorrow.
If you go days without food or water you'd likely be desperate for a solution, and that's the closest one.
Then theres health, being poor adds stress which causes health complications *on top of* the complications you already get from starving everyday.
Being a woman on top of that is an absolute nightmare, I've heard horror stories of what happens to homeless women/woman who need to do anything for money and in comparison the Qun sounds *ten times* better.
And ignoring the homelessness, if you're an elf living in the alienage you at least have a sense of often community. But you still only get your pick of minor low paying jobs, the humans can do whatever they want (ranging from cutting down the tree, to raping elves, to burning down the whole alienage altogether), and the police are nary a help and often part of the problem.
The Qun is a mess I agree, but I could absolutely see why some would join it.
Also I think the hardcore brainwashing only applies to certain situations. People who cause too much trouble or want a memory erased.
So, you would rather a lobotomy? Yes, I can see why, the Qun hide the actual business under "free meal and a purpose". If they were honest " you aren't a slave only thanks to a technicality, we can force you to do anything, and uf you resist we fry your brain", no one would join.
>Also I think the hardcore brainwashing only applies to certain situations.
Yes, like instances where the non-hardcore brainwadhing doesn't do the trick instantly.
In a non-privilged society most people would choose the former, it's easy to pursue possibilities of your personal freedom and individuality, if all your basic needs are fulfilled.
All your basic needs being fullfilled worth fuck all if you no longer have the mental capacity to appreciate it.
I don't think a in a "non-priviliged" society most people will choose the foemer. Where I live we have homeless people giving shelters a wide breath becazse they tend to be extremly draconian, people value their own dignity.
If you are starving, you are mainly thinking about getting food, you don't really make future plans for next x years. So maybe their conditions aren't that bad, or maybe it's not about dignity, where I live homeless people often avoid shelters, because they don't allow alcohol or drugs. We know that in-universe non-Qunari people choose the Qun and they often have good reasons for that.
It's a very scorched earth approach to equality. It's clearly not a permenant solution since have plenty of rebels against the Qun but it's certainly fasctinating.
I mean but they also very much do rip families apart and lobotomize people who aren't enthusiastic enough about the lifestyle.
For common folk, tearing apart families isn't just sad, it's a catastrophic destruction of society's fabric, and destroys your ability to make a living.
Im curious if the new game will lean into the darker parts of Qun lore and the reality of their ongoing war against Tevinter or kind of pivot and keep portraying Qunari more like Bull and kinda of less strict and more accepting on their face vs Sten’s bigotry and disbelief of different races and sexes as fighters and leaders
I hope there will be elements of both. Maybe we’ll even get to decide to cripple or reinforce ParVollen like the genophage cure mission from ME3. But Im speaking out of my ass here. Doubt they would let us do that. The past game decisions barely tracked over
I think in theory they're honoured for the willingness or effort to serve a role.
That being said, in theory anyone who is disabled or impaired is honoured for their efforts. Doesn't stop them being abused or murdered by the real world inspirations for the Qunari. After all, Saarebas are "honoured" for their efforts as well, the honour of being silenced and chained for the false notion that their own conversation could conjure demons.
I think there's a certain element of the fanbase as well that struggles reading between the lines when it comes to the Qunari. After all, everyone who is in it and is able to be met loves it, right? Until they don't, because the price it requires is too high.
It's definitely notable that a lot of Qunari don't stay Qunari once they make contact with other cultures (the Arishok's troops, Iron Bull). One of the devs (maybe Mary Kirby, since she wrote him?) said ages ago that even Sten would have needed a bit of re-education once he returned from Ferelden.
I mean it definitely goes both ways, plenty of Andrastian folks join the Qun. But we also see a lot of sorta...passively Andrastian characters. Whereas the only passively Qunari character we've had is Bull, and he doesn't stay there, one way or the other.
I think it would be interesting to go to Qunari lands and see what that's like. Are there equivalents to Cassandra or Leliana using religious arguments to make reforms, or is everyone in lockstep?
Warning: This is a rant. I feel very strongly about this. 💀
The Qun is an authoritarian, jingoistic and imperialistic society that literally employs a secret police to monitor it's citizens for dissent. But that's okay because they don't oppress elves. Except they still kinda do, you can't do what you want outside of your role and are effectively a tool with no soul to the leaders of the Qun. Sten literally can't go back because he lost his weapon and they'll kill a perfectly good and loyal soldier because of that. It's fine though because they oppress everyone equally. 👍
They also torture prisoners and destroy the native cultures they conquer, like when they took over Par Vollen. There used to be a unique human culture that built pyramids and other such wonders but their culture is completely gone with barely any historical records about them existing.
Thank you for mentioning the Saarebas btw. A lot of people tend to ignore the fact that mages in the Qun are basically slaves that cannot even speak. The Qun isn't a "flawed" system, it's completely dystopian.
I suspect the disabled individual might react in a way we consider very strangely. Look how Sten reacted to losing his sword. The Qun might not harm such individuals but those in the Qun are indoctrinated to levels not seen elsewhere in Thedas. Just how a lot of people aren't successfully able to adjust to retirement here imagine how worse it is for peoples whos' whole identity is their work? I would suspect many don't last long after life changing injuries.
I mean, even in our regular assumed western societies, people get so attached to their work/career that they are willing to kill themselves and/or their fanilies over getting fired. Now imagine if you work was 100% of your identity and personhood. You'd literally have nothing left after losing that.
As one other poster said, the tamassrans would take care of them in cases where they are completely in need of full time care until they pass. However a lot of disabled or elderly would still be able to be assigned to other roles in society based on things they can still do/what the Tamassrans can find for them. Even things as simple as doing laundry or scribe work or assisting in educating children.
I imagine they have assigned handlers to care for them. Fenris has said that "Qunari waste nothing" and from what Iron Bull has said it seems that carers and handlers are both recognised roles within the Qun, people that tend to the needs of those that cannot care for themselves. If they can't fulfill their role they get assigned to another. That being said, with how carefully the Qunari seem to tend to their gene pool (Iron Bull has said that Qunari are bred like dogs/horses) I can't imagine that there are many "defective" Qunari being born
The entire Qun philosophy is that everyone has a position they are destined for in life and it is in a meritocratic and religious way that believes everyone is destined for some part of their society based on their abilities. The Qun as a religious doctrine would never advocate for the removal or death of those who are a part of its society unless they are not following the Qun or are failing at their tasks (such as the Arishok in DAII). Like in another comment, it is mentioned that these people would serve the Qun the best they can and would still have a place in their society, however they will tend to end their lives. This is not because of advocating for their deaths, but one of the Qun who loses their place in Qunari society or is unable to contribute like other people do are less likely to want to continue living whether that is for religious, cultural, or psychological reasons. (see Ättestupa for example)
Generally I also think it is safe to say that disability ≠ burden to the Qun. Not only there is evidently characters like Sandal who would likely flourish under the Qun. But there is also the fact that Qunari are still beings capable of emotion despite what the Qun makes it seem like, rather they are just very stoic people- but I don't doubt there is some degree of classism, disgust for other Qunari, and even caring about other Qunari- so I feel like that can be a reason why they allow those with disabilities to survive under the Qun.
Finally, there is also just the fact that the Qun is welcoming to all races. Under the Qun it is very possible for a Human, Dwarf, or Elves to have positions over Qunari based on whether or not they have the skills, there is no real racism despite what can be argued through biological nonsense. Furthermore, the fact that the Qun doesn't really have any racist doctrines in it, it is hard to argue that the Qun has any anti-disability stance in it, but this might be a bit of a grasp at straws.
I am 100% sure that Qunari send everyone who cant work into special farms to secretly assasinate them.
Srly they care about average piece of metal more then about life of soldiers who they breed like dogs and raise for years.
The Qunari have tight control over breeding the population. Generally, breeding programs include culling the sick, weak, and unfit.
Eugenics. They openly do eugenics.
There was an old thread in the Bioware forums where Mary Kirby (among other things, she wrote Sten and a lot of the Qunari lore): >It depends on how impared they are. If they're still mentally able, they wind up training the 12-year-olds who are assigned to their old role. If they're not mentally able, or are too physically impared to function without a lot of help, they're looked after by the Tamassrans. \[...\] It's the same mentality the Qunari have toward mages, really. A person can't help being maimed, or suffering dementia, any more than they can help being a mage. They are honored for their *willingness* to serve their people as best they can, even if their body betrays them. Compassion aside, most of them kill themselves. It causes serious emotional trauma to suddenly lose your entire identity. ([Source](https://web.archive.org/web/20160813002306/https://forum.bioware.com/topic/129021-questions-about-the-qunari/page-10#entry3301751))
I like how it goes from nice and caring to "most of them kill themselves".
Yeah that gave me a little whiplash too ngl
So it's not a state enforced 'kill yourself' but conveniently not discouraged either.
These threads are old so if they wanted to change anything in the actual game I'm sure they would have, but it seems that way from this
The Qun is such a fascinating concept of a society and also a horrible nightmare at the same time.
Yes and no, seems like a nightmare to us given modern luxury but in world like dragon age its amazing for a lot of common folk. Look at lets say a common alienage elf, your hated from birth by most your city. Forced to take shit jobs with the constant fear of being raped or killed by a noble knowing they face no consequence. Even if you do get lucky enough to own a business its likely going to sacked or burnt in first riot that happens in town. But under the Qun they wont look down upon you, so long as you prove yourself capable you can get almost any job you want at the sacrifice of a few personal freedoms. You can live in peace knowing no one will harm you based off wealth or status, that your lineage wont be judged. Its by no means a perfect system but there is a reason why so many have turned to it
I understand your main point, but you cannot get “any job you want” or even close to it. You don’t pick your job. You are assigned a job and role in society. That’s your lot.
Thing is, the same is true for most people in Thedas unless you're highborn, good at killing, or really damn lucky. That Orlesian merchant in Denerim square certainly didn't choose to leave her country, she had to because of a chevalier's harassment; the elves certainly didn't want an alienage to be their lot in the world, they stay there because they're second-rate citizens by virtue of their lineage. There's no freedom in the Qun, but in Thedas all most people have is an illusion of freedom. There can be no real freedom in a world so unequal and so shaped by prejudices.
This comment goes so hard tbh
You can by their rules sorta, if you can prove your skill and worth in a role they more then likely will assign you to that role. While the Qunari tend to not individualize they do realize individual strengths. Much like how bull became a spy despite his bigger size. If you know how to bake or sow clothes its more then likely thats the roll they will give you. They are efficient motherfuckers
You don’t get to train for any job you want, so your proficiency is likely to be in whatever trade you previously occupied. That may not be what you *want*.
Yeah! Flawed system thats good to some
True, but you have to do it while you're still a child or just converted. And show a rare amount of skill for it.
As someone who usually rolls a mage in Dragon Age games, the Qun has never been very appealing to me, considering what kind of “role” my characters would serve in it.
As someone who hates authority, I also don't really like the Qun. I loved talking about shit with sten tho. (Also I always play mages too, so yeah).
If you're born into the Qun sure. If you're an alienage elf or any other adult attempting to enter you're given a job based on your proficiency. Even the children are at least on paper given a job based on proficiency, it'd just obviously children aren't really proficient at anything so they're taught something more in line with what's needed.
So long as it fits inside the role of your gender, or you're freakishly good at something.
Again, that's only for Qun born individuals. Those entering the Qun from outside are placed based on their proficiency. Even Qun born individuals have Aqun-Athlok where they can be re-gendered based on proficiency and even barring that all 3 Salasari are co-ed despite on paper being gender specific.
No, it's for all of them. You're sorted based on your gender, then your profiency. It's only if you're of exceptional skill on something that your gender isn't meant to that you are declared Aqun-Athlok. As for the Salasari, the Arishok is always male, and the Arigena is always female. Only the Ariqun can be either (and they're usually female due to the fact that one of the two main branches under her can only be women).
Being able to decide who you are and what you want to do is a relatively modern thing in human history; for most of our existence your job and role has been determined by your gender and what your parents did. Only exceptional aptitude or luck allowed you to change that. Then it changed to where there was a general "Band" of jobs and roles you could take to suit your preferences, but there was still very little mobility up or down. It's really only modern times where you're free to do what you want to.
But you're assigned a role that *suits* you and your skillset. Lots of people want to be rock stars, not many people are suited for the gig. It's not like they randomly assing you to some kind of drudgery. The whole point is they want you to go where you're going to do best and be the most useful, and knowing you're fulfilling your purpose is supposed to make you content. Course people don't work that way but their theory is sound. If you're a fereldan peasant farmer, your odds of being anything else are pretty damn small. But you don't have the benefit of being surrounded by a society designed to support and care for you, like Qunari are. No system is a perfect one but in Thedas they all certainly have their pros and cons. The thing that really pushes the Qun into the "bad" column is the fact that they have fucking thought police lol
Their theory isn't sound. The Tamasran assigns you are role, she knows best. What? It's a role you hate? We don't care that's what you have talent for based on our perfect system. You still aren't convinced you like the perfect job we asigned to you? Ok, now we tortu.. I mean reeducate you till you are fixed and start liking the role that you are good for. There are a lot more jobs in a rural setting than you think. There isn't a wide variety of choice but there is one. The Qun doesn't care abouth you, it doesn't support you, it uses you. The problem with the Qun doesn't start at thought police. The issue starts with how they fundamentally don't see people as people, but as resources and tools.
Operating under the assumption that members of the collective will feel happiest and most fulfilled by being of greatest use to the collective is the theory they're operating under, and since that's the core guiding principle, yes, from their perspective, it is sound. And this is opposed to, for example, feudalism? Most Orlesian nobles don't think of peasants, human or otherwise, as being anything more than resources or tools, either. The Qun is obviously extremely oppressive but that oppression is certainly no *more* malicious than any other system's.
>Operating under the assumption that members of the collective will feel happiest and most fulfilled by being of greatest use to the collective is the theory they're operating under, and since that's the core guiding principle, yes, from their perspective, it is sound. And their perspective is fundamentally wrong, and I don't care. >And this is opposed to, for example, feudalism? Most Orlesian nobles don't think of peasants, human or otherwise, as being anything more than resources or tools, either. The individual noble might not see them as a person, but the whole core ideology isn't build on "these people are tools" in this case. That's a big differance. >The Qun is obviously extremely oppressive but that oppression is certainly no more malicious than any other system's. Yes it is. You have less freedom than anywhere else, it's more expansionist than any other nation, it's less tolerant to other cultures than any other nation, it fundamentally doesn't see people as people, and it doesn't even allow to think you have it bad.
Okey dokey.
I'm seriously worried abouth most of you, can't even notice that a fictional cult is bad, what's your chances irl.
Buddy you need to go touch some grass. You seem to be taking this extremely personally and getting really worked up. I am at 0 risk of falling prey to a cult lol I'm fine. I don't even like the Qun???? Jfc.
which is the same as in every other society in thedas. at least the qun assigns you based on your skill and aptitude instead of arbitrary stuff like race, caste, or who you parents are
I don’t recall the government forcing Leliana to become a lay sister or prepare to take vows. She also didn’t need permission to leave. There are certainly issues in Thedas at large, but the notion that *every* society assigns roles that one generally cannot have reassigned to *every* person is just incorrect. Even mages can make choices within most circles. Wynne asked Irving (another mage, mind) to leave the tower thus changing her role. She also didn’t have to appeal the government. Under the qun, there’s no appeal and no ask. She’s just chained. Literally.
Tbf, Wynne can only leave because she is a senior enchanter and a highly regarded and trusted member of the Circle. Not only that, but she's leaving to join a Grey Warden during a Blight, very extenuating circumstances. Most mages who aren't at the top of the hierarchy don't have the same freedom to act independently and would most certainly have to appeal the Templars for a leave of absence. She's also still very much chained. A phylactery is a literal chain held by the Templars and the Chantry.
My point is that extenuating circumstances matter. The qun does not allow for such. We also see in Awakening that a warden asking nicely can be refused and forced to utilize conscription, which we don’t do with Wynne. Moreover, the decisions are more spread out. Irving makes the call that Wynne can go. She may have a phylactery, but she’s not literally physically chained, and she does not require a handler. The circles aren’t *good*, but what the qun demands is far worse.
our companions are by and large exceptions to the rule of the general population in thedas. most people don’t go on grand adventures or have the ability to change their lot in life. everyone in the origin stories are relegated to their fates, for example. serfdom, slavery, and economic coercion make it so most people stay in their assigned social roles. but if you wanna talk about our companions, alistair talks about how his fate as a non-important-person was drilled into him as a kid, then he was forced into being a templar and was only ‘saved’ by a different order that he can’t escape. later on, he can be forced into being king because of his blood, not his skill. ohghren was forced to be a warrior since he was born into that caste. zevran was forced to be a slave and a crow, and even after the game says there’s really nothing else he can do. leliana did have some heavy consequences for leaving marjolaine’s service, and even after she’s free, she *still* has to do the exact same work for divine justinia! morrigan doesn’t really count since she’s not part of normal society, but even *she* was forced to live as a witch of the wilds, and forced to come with us on our quest purely due to who her mom is. even the warden can’t pick “whatever job they want”—they are forced into being a grey warden by duncan, and can’t change that. obviously the qun is horrible if you’re a mage or disagree with the tamassrans, but it’s a lot more complex than JUST being bad
Most of the examples you list are people being affected by others’ actions as opposed to government orders. Isolde is the reason Alastair is sent to the chantry. His being king is player-dictated and can be something he wants. He has multiple outcomes. Zevran is certainly a victim, but there’s nothing ordaining his actions besides the Crows hunting him. If romanced, Zevran is traveling with his lover to cure them. Leliana chose to travel with Marjolaine, to become a lay sister, and to work for the Divine later. I will give you that the dwarven caste system is unfortunate and rigid, but the player has the opportunity to work towards dismantling that. Additionally, dwarves have the option of going to the surface, which certainly comes with sacrifice and limitation, but it is an option. None of these examples compare to the rigidity of the qun. Conscription into the only army capable of stopping an existential threat is the only thing you’ve listed where there is literally no option, and that’s *not controlled by the governments.* So, yes. Problematic systems abound. They still do not near universally assign roles with the same rigid immobility. Also, I never said the qun is just bad. I said I understood the point being made but that one cannot choose any job one wants. One cannot choose at all.
>Most of the examples you list are people being affected by others’ actions as opposed to government orders. i can agree with this, in the rest of thedas the coersion is more unwritten social and economic rules, not direct government orders. I'd argue that something being codified by government vs unwritten but still enforced is largely the same outcome wise, though obviously there's a change in dynamic. that difference is imo what makes the qun so interesting. >Isolde is the reason Alastair is sent to the chantry. in this case though, isolde *is* a government officer as an Arlessa. Eamon telling alistair he's never gonna be in charge of anything, then pushing him to be king based on arbitrary blood, is also a governmental decision. >His being king is player-dictated and can be something he wants. He has multiple outcomes. .... Leliana chose to travel with Marjolaine, to become a lay sister, and to work for the Divine later. it doesn't matter if they enjoyed it or wanted it, it's still pushed on them in the same way the Qun is. Iron Bull and Sten both really enjoy, want, and openly embrace their roles under the qun. but they were still put there under someone else's influence. if Alistair embracing becoming king is free choice, then so is Bull embracing being a ben-hassrath. >Conscription into the only army capable of stopping an existential threat is the only thing you’ve listed where there is literally no option, and that’s *not controlled by the governments.* Duncan invoking a legal right respected and enforced by every government seems pretty governmentally controlled to me.
But Isolde doesn’t send Alistair to the chantry as a government official. Eamon does it because he’s a coward who can’t stand up to his wife, and she as someone who can’t get past her own insecurities. Yes. Alistair’s lineage affects his potential outcomes. He may never be pressured to be king. He may assert being king himself. But the point is that having *some* possibilities is different than having *one*. Also, Bull has had to be tortured into accepting his role. I wouldn’t count on that example. Grey Wardens are not government officials. That matters. They also deal with a unique existential threat, which also matters. But the Grey Wardens can conscript *anyone*. They actually *cause* role changes. You can’t change back, but again, one change is more than none. Again, I am not saying everyone can do anything. I’ve said the opposite several times in fact. But an interplay of various social and political systems influencing or determining people’s outcomes is still very different than a single government group breeding, raising, and deciding a permanent role for *every single person*.
>Nanny Goodwin lay on the hard stones of the [Kirkwall](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Kirkwall) docks until the sailors left with her purse. As she struggled to her feet, a large grey hand reached down to help her. It was one of the [Qunari](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Qunari), the great horned giants who had come to live in the city. >"I thank you," said Nanny Goodwin hesitantly, looking for her satchel. "I did not know the docks were so dangerous, or I would have asked one of Lord G\_\_\_'s guards to accompany me as I bought healing herbs for the children." >"You are a [tamassran](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Tamassran)," said the Qunari. "Under [the Qun](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/The_Qun), no sailor would accost you. Why are you here?" >"I am but Lord G\_\_\_'s nanny," Nanny Goodwin said, "and Lord G\_\_\_ did not believe me when I told him that the children needed healing herbs, so I was forced to buy them myself." >"Under the Qun," said the Qunari, "tamassrans are trusted and listened to when caring for the children, and any healing herbs they needed would be provided. Why did Lord G\_\_\_ not attend your words?" >"He is a noble," Nanny Goodwin said, "and I am merely a servant who cares for his children." She shifted her shawl to hide the bruises the sailors had given her, as well as the bruises Lord G\_\_\_ himself had left. >"Under the Qun," said the Qunari, "all are equal, and no tamassran thinks herself a *mere* anything." >Nanny Goodwin bid the Qunari good day and returned to [Hightown](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Hightown) with much to think about. >—An excerpt from *The Lies of the Nobles, the Truth of the Qun*, author unknown [Codex entry: Qunari Tamassrans | Dragon Age Wiki | Fandom](https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_Qunari_Tamassrans) > >**Anders**: So, the Qun, huh? You just... woke up one day and decided "what I really need in life is a big guy with horns telling me everything I should think? >**Tallis**: Believe me, it wasn't that quick. Haven't you ever looked at the world and wondered where the justice is? The equality? In the Qun, everyone is welcome. Elves, humans. It doesn't matter what you look like, where you come from, there's a place for you. >**Anders**: Unless you're a mage. >**Tallis**: You won't find that anywhere in Thedas. (just a couple favorite quotes)
Yup, it can be a bit hard to swallow given people are naturally ambitious and want to get to higher points of power but the quns not to bad for a lotta folks
The thing about the Qun is that it is determinedly foreign. That's plainly how it's written - to be strange and basically unthinkable to players. (See your argument with Zamo as Exhibit #1) Leliana is a fucking ex-assassin for a bunch of French aristocrats but she's written to be very cozy and warm to us. Sten? Sten is "alien" his culture and thought process is intended to be far removed from our own. The Chantry is loaded with very familiar trappings and ideas. Even the bad ones are a bit more forgivable because they are familiar. A friend once summed up the Qun thusly: >The Qun is profoundly illiberal, and its logic is opposed to pretty much everything any modern Western person is raised to believe in (individualism, freedom, ambition, democracy, etc.), but the undeniable charisma of the Arishok combined with the chaos and degeneracy of Kirkwall manages to make the Qun actually look quite tempting. It's why the Qun is the most interesting thing about the Thedas setting - because it's actually written to be so very different. Fiction that makes you think outside the box is the best. That's why RPGs with choice are the best.
It's not strange and unthinkable... It's just Plato's Republic meets common cult tactics, it's very thinkable. And it's not the same. There is a huge differance between Leliana and what the Qun does, spying is unsavory but it's not tought crimes..
I'm curious what percentage of gamers have even heard of Plato's Republic
It's a cult. It is that bad for everyone, it's just good at hiding it, like irl cults.
Well yeah, most the world is like that. My brother in andraste almost every nation you go to is run by a cult. How about the rad avvars those dudes are chillin and its ran by a cult too Imao
Cult as in the modern sense... Really few places in Thedas are run by an actual cult, and the Qun is one of them.
I mean have you seeeeeen the weird shit the chantry does? They run most the world, and those fuckers got genocidal for a bit. Or how about the tevinter cults Imao
If Chantry was a cult people wouldn't be allowed to speak out against it or leave it ever, which they plainly are and can. Having weird traditions doesn't make you a cult, and that line of thinking can become bigoted quickly.
Lmao, that's not a cult lmao, weird shit doesn't equal cult lmao, and thoes cults aren't the ones officially running Tevinter lmao. The Qun is the only poper large scale cult in Thedas, and it's just objectively bad.
Andrastes very much a cult like the Qun. While they have good “morals” they are very much bad at upholding it and do believe heavily in elf bashing
A large scale cult can very much just be callled a religion
Just because you don't like it, does not make something a cult vs proper wholesome other religion that is just as cult-y. Saying that Qun is just 'good at hiding its badness', is kind of a bizarre take when Qunari very obviously tell you what Qun expects of you and what limits it sets. They aren't hiding shit. They probably don't go around advertising re-educators, but people rarely do that about our modern water treatment facilities either - that doesn't make them a secret, but an obvious public service.
Funny thing is Tallis is lying, considering she's from Tevinter.
Mages still aren't equal in Tevinter, it's just they get to lord it over others instead of vice versa. It's still a very unequal society.
"Any job you want" That is afaik not true. You where bred from the start to fullfill a needed role. If you don't want that role, too bad...
In terms Converts not born and even then there is some chance of movement. Not to mention most non combat roles are usually in needing for more hands Being say a baker, tailor or farmer will always find somewhere they are needed
Okay, but you are not free to do everything you want. You fall in love, no chance, you want to have children? Your fatherhood ends with your orgasm and your motherhood ends with birth.
Yes and no, a lot of the Qun isn’t fully explored sadly but for the most part they have very weird terms of romance. You cannot exactly stop relationships from forming especially from converts but they feel that sex and love are wholly different things. Its not a perfect system in which you do lose a lot of freedom but it can be much better then the hell that awaits you as a commoner in some kingdoms
You can't really easily become whoever you want in other Thedas nations either. I get the feeling that people often judge the Qun based on our, real society, not from in-universe Thedas perspective, which would be more appropriate.
"If a Fereldan servant decides that his life job is to... become a poet, he can follow that dream. It may be difficult, and he might fail, but the whole of society is not aligned to oppose him!" -Solas
But if a Ferelden mage doesn't want to join Circle, society will oppose him, Solas was also against Circles. If you are a poor Ferelden peasant born in a poor peasant family, you will most probably end as poor peasant and society won't help you. The dwarven caste system is even worse.
Dwarves can leave for the surface. Not the easiest choice, but they don't kill you for it. And the circle is seen as a bad thing that now only exists as Vivienne's fiefdom. It's a false equivalence.
He just keeps saying yes and no and then keeps repeating what you said in a more overly complicated essay.
That's not necessarily true. Under the Qun, one's role is chosen for them by their tamassran, who knows them and their capabilities personally. So while the individual does not have agency, their tamassran is unlikely to saddle them with a role they obviously do not want unless there's a crisis. The Qunari are not "bred" for their roles, they don't seem to practice any kind of eugenics, seeing as even those with developmental disabilities are cared for. Things get a bit more complicated with the viddathari. We have a source that mentions them being forcibly reeducated to become spies, but it's from a Tevinter document so there's an obvious element of bias. A lot of viddathari end up in the Ben-Hassrath just by virtue of their role in broader Thedas, but I doubt the Qun pigeon-holes them to the same degree it does with born-and-raised Qunari. Since the viddathari tend to come to their tamassrans as fully fledged adults, they're probably going to be able to have some amount of influence over the tamassran's decision, assuming they demonstrate passion and aptitude for a certain skill. Hopefully we'll be able to get a closer look at edge cases like these in Veilguard.
> their tamassran is unlikely to saddle them with a role they obviously do not want unless there's a crisis. Why assume the Qun's managers would be any more competent than managers literally anywhere else?
Because their society grants them a secure enough safety net to give a shit about their jobs, I'd think. It's not foolproof, but I'd feel a lot more passionate about working hard toward the betterment of society if I felt like it was objectively correct and was protecting me from a catastrophic misstep.
I think what throws me off about the Qun is that it is always presumed that the higher up, like the Ben Hasarath, the Tamassrans, etc, are all good, moral people who actually do what they say they will do. Sort of like how in Tevinter they publicly say no one uses blood magic, but behind closed doors, they all use it to get ahead. I get the feeling that in a place like the Qun, it's actually far easier to be corrupt because it's built to have complete trust in those in power.
On the one hand, there's no way to really disprove that since we've not actually gotten to see what day-to-day life is like under the Qun for the average person. On the other hand, we've met one (technically two) of the Qunari heads of state, and they were patently incorruptible, even to their own detriment. But it's no secret the Ben-Hassrath generally do more harm than good - they do drug and torture people for the sake of reeducation, I'm not gonna defend that. I'm just saying the average person probably gives them a wide berth and tries to think about them as little as possible, like cops. Tamassran, meanwhile, seems to be synonymous with social worker. They do childcare, education, administration, sex work - we don't know how much those overlap for any individual tamassran, but my point is it's a broad job description. It would be foolish to assume they're all good, moral people but there's nothing to suggest they're unempathetic monsters either. I've worked alongside a lot of social workers myself, and the recurring theme with them has been people who mean well but are very, very tired, which impacts their ability to do their jobs. If you're selected to be a tamassran, it's probably because you've displayed an understanding, if not empathy, for other people. The Qunari, largely being free of the social/financial stressors of our society, can build an environment for people to hone their empathy as a skill without getting so exhausted. In that way, I think the system kind of self-selects for kinder people to rise in those positions. Again, that's not a guarantee of anything, but we know from Bull and Sten that the Qunari select leaders from those who step up and make tough decisions when the time comes, regardless of any other characteristics. Corruption isn't impossible, but the system seems to have more protections against it than any code of law in broader Thedas, in writing and in spirit. I'd be excited to be proven wrong in Veilguard though, assuming it's done well and isn't just a rug pull.
They practice eugenics because they don't allow half breeds. Elves can't breed with humans.
Can you source that?
There's a previous thread discussing the Qun that quotes this.
Link that then. This is a compelling argument but all I'm getting is hearsay.
https://dalishious.tumblr.com/post/615870289160683520/sorry-if-this-is-a-weird-quesiton-but-iron-bull/amp
Ill do you better and show a quote from Mary Kirby herself.
Interesting, thank you! Yeah, that's pretty damning, but she doesn't mention any reason why it's set up that way, which is what I was most interested in. Is there a codex entry that has more context, or do we just have to rely on word of god here?
I'd argue that you're always an outsider joining the qunari as different race. The fact that they can't even be called "qunari" which is follower of the qun. They have to be "Viddarathi." They may be treated the same in paper, but you're always going to be outside the qunari.
Those freedoms being your very identity
Hey its that or spending your life starving scrubbing floors for a noble ass Imao
So it's lobotomy or being poor. I choose being poor thanks.
Hey now you cant forget the starvation, being used as a meat cannon or other personal abuses. Shoulda added an s but yeah its def not a perfect or my preferred system but does make perfect sense for a fair few peeps scored by lifestyle
So the only times I've ever heard the phrase "meat cannon" it's been as a synonym for penis. I'm guessing that's not what you meant, lol?
Both work
>Hey now you cant forget the starvation, being used as a meat cannon or other personal abuses. Yes, I forgot you get all thoes under the Qun to. More reason why choise starvation instead.
Lol that's easy to say when you're not starving for your next meal, searching for a place to live or wondering if you'll see the tomorrow. If you go days without food or water you'd likely be desperate for a solution, and that's the closest one. Then theres health, being poor adds stress which causes health complications *on top of* the complications you already get from starving everyday. Being a woman on top of that is an absolute nightmare, I've heard horror stories of what happens to homeless women/woman who need to do anything for money and in comparison the Qun sounds *ten times* better. And ignoring the homelessness, if you're an elf living in the alienage you at least have a sense of often community. But you still only get your pick of minor low paying jobs, the humans can do whatever they want (ranging from cutting down the tree, to raping elves, to burning down the whole alienage altogether), and the police are nary a help and often part of the problem. The Qun is a mess I agree, but I could absolutely see why some would join it. Also I think the hardcore brainwashing only applies to certain situations. People who cause too much trouble or want a memory erased.
So, you would rather a lobotomy? Yes, I can see why, the Qun hide the actual business under "free meal and a purpose". If they were honest " you aren't a slave only thanks to a technicality, we can force you to do anything, and uf you resist we fry your brain", no one would join. >Also I think the hardcore brainwashing only applies to certain situations. Yes, like instances where the non-hardcore brainwadhing doesn't do the trick instantly.
In a non-privilged society most people would choose the former, it's easy to pursue possibilities of your personal freedom and individuality, if all your basic needs are fulfilled.
All your basic needs being fullfilled worth fuck all if you no longer have the mental capacity to appreciate it. I don't think a in a "non-priviliged" society most people will choose the foemer. Where I live we have homeless people giving shelters a wide breath becazse they tend to be extremly draconian, people value their own dignity.
If you are starving, you are mainly thinking about getting food, you don't really make future plans for next x years. So maybe their conditions aren't that bad, or maybe it's not about dignity, where I live homeless people often avoid shelters, because they don't allow alcohol or drugs. We know that in-universe non-Qunari people choose the Qun and they often have good reasons for that.
Yes, the Qun hides the unsavory bits till you are to deep into it. Like a cult.
Most of factions in Thedas are cultish
You get assigned to breed under the Qun, you're gonna get raped either way
It's a very scorched earth approach to equality. It's clearly not a permenant solution since have plenty of rebels against the Qun but it's certainly fasctinating.
Unless you're a mage which automatically leads to being shackled and monitored 24/7.
Oh yeah no fuck that apostate all the way baby
I mean but they also very much do rip families apart and lobotomize people who aren't enthusiastic enough about the lifestyle. For common folk, tearing apart families isn't just sad, it's a catastrophic destruction of society's fabric, and destroys your ability to make a living.
I said a thing and you paraphrased it into a random essay saying exactly what i said? Are you okay?
Nightmare to some clarity to others i just find it neat to talk about given the nature of it
Sure, you do you i guess?
Im curious if the new game will lean into the darker parts of Qun lore and the reality of their ongoing war against Tevinter or kind of pivot and keep portraying Qunari more like Bull and kinda of less strict and more accepting on their face vs Sten’s bigotry and disbelief of different races and sexes as fighters and leaders
I hope there will be elements of both. Maybe we’ll even get to decide to cripple or reinforce ParVollen like the genophage cure mission from ME3. But Im speaking out of my ass here. Doubt they would let us do that. The past game decisions barely tracked over
> and also a horrible nightmare at the same time. What utopia do you live in?
The Tamassrans take care of them. This was revealed on the old Bioware Forums.
I think in theory they're honoured for the willingness or effort to serve a role. That being said, in theory anyone who is disabled or impaired is honoured for their efforts. Doesn't stop them being abused or murdered by the real world inspirations for the Qunari. After all, Saarebas are "honoured" for their efforts as well, the honour of being silenced and chained for the false notion that their own conversation could conjure demons. I think there's a certain element of the fanbase as well that struggles reading between the lines when it comes to the Qunari. After all, everyone who is in it and is able to be met loves it, right? Until they don't, because the price it requires is too high.
It's definitely notable that a lot of Qunari don't stay Qunari once they make contact with other cultures (the Arishok's troops, Iron Bull). One of the devs (maybe Mary Kirby, since she wrote him?) said ages ago that even Sten would have needed a bit of re-education once he returned from Ferelden. I mean it definitely goes both ways, plenty of Andrastian folks join the Qun. But we also see a lot of sorta...passively Andrastian characters. Whereas the only passively Qunari character we've had is Bull, and he doesn't stay there, one way or the other. I think it would be interesting to go to Qunari lands and see what that's like. Are there equivalents to Cassandra or Leliana using religious arguments to make reforms, or is everyone in lockstep?
I get the impression that unhappy Qunari aren't allowed out of the proverbial house, so to speak.
Warning: This is a rant. I feel very strongly about this. 💀 The Qun is an authoritarian, jingoistic and imperialistic society that literally employs a secret police to monitor it's citizens for dissent. But that's okay because they don't oppress elves. Except they still kinda do, you can't do what you want outside of your role and are effectively a tool with no soul to the leaders of the Qun. Sten literally can't go back because he lost his weapon and they'll kill a perfectly good and loyal soldier because of that. It's fine though because they oppress everyone equally. 👍 They also torture prisoners and destroy the native cultures they conquer, like when they took over Par Vollen. There used to be a unique human culture that built pyramids and other such wonders but their culture is completely gone with barely any historical records about them existing. Thank you for mentioning the Saarebas btw. A lot of people tend to ignore the fact that mages in the Qun are basically slaves that cannot even speak. The Qun isn't a "flawed" system, it's completely dystopian.
I suspect the disabled individual might react in a way we consider very strangely. Look how Sten reacted to losing his sword. The Qun might not harm such individuals but those in the Qun are indoctrinated to levels not seen elsewhere in Thedas. Just how a lot of people aren't successfully able to adjust to retirement here imagine how worse it is for peoples whos' whole identity is their work? I would suspect many don't last long after life changing injuries.
I mean, even in our regular assumed western societies, people get so attached to their work/career that they are willing to kill themselves and/or their fanilies over getting fired. Now imagine if you work was 100% of your identity and personhood. You'd literally have nothing left after losing that.
As one other poster said, the tamassrans would take care of them in cases where they are completely in need of full time care until they pass. However a lot of disabled or elderly would still be able to be assigned to other roles in society based on things they can still do/what the Tamassrans can find for them. Even things as simple as doing laundry or scribe work or assisting in educating children.
I imagine they have assigned handlers to care for them. Fenris has said that "Qunari waste nothing" and from what Iron Bull has said it seems that carers and handlers are both recognised roles within the Qun, people that tend to the needs of those that cannot care for themselves. If they can't fulfill their role they get assigned to another. That being said, with how carefully the Qunari seem to tend to their gene pool (Iron Bull has said that Qunari are bred like dogs/horses) I can't imagine that there are many "defective" Qunari being born
They have a better social safety net than the US, that's for sure.
The entire Qun philosophy is that everyone has a position they are destined for in life and it is in a meritocratic and religious way that believes everyone is destined for some part of their society based on their abilities. The Qun as a religious doctrine would never advocate for the removal or death of those who are a part of its society unless they are not following the Qun or are failing at their tasks (such as the Arishok in DAII). Like in another comment, it is mentioned that these people would serve the Qun the best they can and would still have a place in their society, however they will tend to end their lives. This is not because of advocating for their deaths, but one of the Qun who loses their place in Qunari society or is unable to contribute like other people do are less likely to want to continue living whether that is for religious, cultural, or psychological reasons. (see Ättestupa for example) Generally I also think it is safe to say that disability ≠ burden to the Qun. Not only there is evidently characters like Sandal who would likely flourish under the Qun. But there is also the fact that Qunari are still beings capable of emotion despite what the Qun makes it seem like, rather they are just very stoic people- but I don't doubt there is some degree of classism, disgust for other Qunari, and even caring about other Qunari- so I feel like that can be a reason why they allow those with disabilities to survive under the Qun. Finally, there is also just the fact that the Qun is welcoming to all races. Under the Qun it is very possible for a Human, Dwarf, or Elves to have positions over Qunari based on whether or not they have the skills, there is no real racism despite what can be argued through biological nonsense. Furthermore, the fact that the Qun doesn't really have any racist doctrines in it, it is hard to argue that the Qun has any anti-disability stance in it, but this might be a bit of a grasp at straws.
I am 100% sure that Qunari send everyone who cant work into special farms to secretly assasinate them. Srly they care about average piece of metal more then about life of soldiers who they breed like dogs and raise for years.
assassinating them would be a waste, which they won’t do. fenris says they don’t even kill their enemies
They get yeeted off a cliff into free food, housing, and healthcare.
The Qunari have tight control over breeding the population. Generally, breeding programs include culling the sick, weak, and unfit. Eugenics. They openly do eugenics.
The more important question is : Are we talking about DAO/DA2 Qunari, or about DAI (and probably DAV too) Qunari?
No mercy for the Qun. It makes sense because of how rabid and brutal the Qunari are. I think we're going to see them splintered at some point.
They are killed off
*they tend to kill themselves