a ham-fisted shoe horned in fantasy about polyamory rather than delving into her real PTSD. It was a stupid storyline and feels fake and makes them out to be manipulative
I mean we really know nothing substantial about their relationship at this point. Is Butters actually a caring partner able to handle that kind of relationship? Is he just a cheesy nerd who's in it for the freaky sex (and the reader's wish fulfillment)? I'm waiting to see how Butcher handles it.
On some consideration, I think the only character where gender is important, is really only Dresden. With how sex is used to control him, and change him. And it'd be harder to hide a child from Dresden if they were the one to get preggers.
The other character that may have a strong argument is for maybe Micheal. As much as we see him, as this totally caring and understanding person. Catholics does have a pretty firm stance about the family unit and marraige. And with how magic is inherited, it requires to get it from one of the parents. So they have to be fucking and having natal childern. Which means that adapation is out.
The Fairy Queens also have to be female to fit into the Trinity Goddess format.
I agree with Harry needing to be male for multiple reasons.
But...
And it'd be harder to hide a child from Dresden if they were the one to get preggers.
Skin Game spoilers:
>!Bonnie' existence does suggest otherwise! đ!<
Don't forget Murphy and Susan. I bet Lara could work her thing on Dresden even if her name were Larry, but those two have to be women if you want to adapt Harry as he is.
Yeah I think Murph not only being a woman, but being as small as she is is pretty critical. A ton of her struggles and insecurities are based around it
Murph being a woman is not critical, even though it is a defining part of her character as is. It becomes more important that she is female as the story progresses but isnât critical. Dresden just needs to become bisexual and much of the story can stay the same.
- I see RedPill has joined the thread
âAs isâ, donât cut my words, words matter. And yes her being a woman doesnât matter in the early stories but does later, because Dresden is a straight male. Murphy being female only matters for Dresden to be sexually and romantically interested in her, it is not critical for the character.
It is critical because in the earlier books her being a woman is a cornerstone of her character. Her job being the main reason for it. You have to remember that the first book came out in 2000. And while we have come a long way since then, back then being a woman incharge of a division of a police department was not as common.
Also why would anyone change it. Just for the sake of todays PC stance on anyone can be anything. Like why would anyone take a strong female character and do a gender swap. Im all for un-whitewashing and having different demographics in leading and central supporting roles. But switching it just because is a ridiculous thing to do.
On the first point, I would say it was important for culture buy not critical to the character. It is just word choice.
Your second point is against the first. Her being a woman is representing an under represented demographic.
- for me, this is more thought experiment, than a real requirement.
Right, I think as depicted White Court Vampires are so damn pretty and their powers work the way they do, that your gender/preferences doesnât protect you. Like Brad and Angelina during Mr and Mrs Smith, you would get into bed with either.
Susan yes, Murphy I think we could have a little wiggle room. Gay cop could face similar challenges as Murphy has in the books. Wouldnât be 1 to 1 but could still keep most the major beats.
Notice I said "if you want to adapt Harry as he is". In that scenario, i.e. straight horndog Harry, his love interest would have to be a straight woman. I am not against changing things in adaptation and making Harry and Murphy a gay couple wouldn't make the series any lesser, I just put a stupid constraint in the scenario.
I was more pointing out that the person you responded to said only Harryâs gender was important to the series. You said Susan and Murphy was also important, I was clarifying that really only Harryâs and Susanâs were needed for the story to unfold the way it has.
Idk Harryâs views on women are a pretty core part of his character, making Murphy into a gay dude would be a huge change for basically no reason or benefit to the story.
Eh, Harry's sexism would be even harder to justify as a bi person *because* it's not particularly strong and it gets weaker as time goes. He isn't closeminded, so you'd need to make him *more* closeminded if he was bi, to justify him not just getting rid of his paternalism. Would work, but he'd be a very different Harry.
Please note I am not saying bi people can't be sexist - I am saying that the more open minded you are the more your sexism will decline with experience and a bi person's experiences are more varied in the realm of gender dynamics.
It would be great if the lgbt+ community was equally socially progressive on all things. But being that, doesnt them from holding any and all stances. And like everyone, they often dont start that why, they grow into that way by having different stances first.
I'm sorry, but did you read my second paragraph, because I wrote that *explicitly* because I was expecting this response. I am not saying the lgbtq+ community cannot have blind spots, I am saying that Dresden, as presented, starts out as both pretty sexist *and* open minded, and if he was bi he would've made *more* progress which would change the character's behaviour - so you either have a more progressive Dresden *or* you make him more close minded, to retain his current stance.
Their gender can be anyone, but Susan needs to be biologically capable of having an unintended pregnancy, though, so that is a little bit more restrictive.
Maggie not showing any talent isn't central to the storyline (at this point, at least). We know what happened in Changes, don't we? The reason is that Maggie was born, so Susan has to be able to bear children, and Dresden has to be able to contribute to the bearing part.
And a lot of Dresden's chauvinism won't work if he's trans or bi.
For most any character I agree. However Harry's straightness matters. His worldview of how he needs to be as a man and especially how he needs to be as a man in relation to women is too important to his flaws. Not to mention the *character introduced in Changes* of it all so that knocks out a few orientations.
Butters? Butters can absolutely be genderbent or queerbent with zero issues. Doesn't effect any of his character, worldview, interactions, or plot.
Butter's sex is relevant only as the male nerd stereotype, but yeah, you can flip on that.
...and it just hit me that the Knights seem to be consistently male.
I'm pretty they state in the books some where that some knights only pick up the swords once and never return to it. But damned if I remember when and which book.
Spoiler skin game >!âMost Knights of the Cross serve for less than three days. Did you know that? They arenât always killedâthey simply fulfill their purpose and go their way.â!<
>!conversation between Nicodemus and Murphy.!<
I think you need to feel the call to be a Knight - as in get a mission. Picking it up *for* a mission of your own doesn't feel like it counts - it's more like a loan than a calling.
Yeah, Dresden should stay male and then Michael also should remain male. Michael represent âthe good manâ Dresden wishes he could be. The character needs that.
But by Dresden's gender being set that then sets a lot of other characters genders in relation to him so I'm not sure how you can say that. Karrin, Lara, Elaine, Susan for a start.
It's a fundamental part of his character with direct implications to the story, that would require far reaching changes were it otherwise - which you seem happy to make - to adapt to your personal perferences. How about we leave the story as it was written by the author.
Ofcourse there is. But in recent years the surveys have shown a around 7.5% of the country is part of the Lgbt community. Even if you double that to account for those uncomfortable with answering truthfully or location survey biases. (Truthfully sounds more negative than it should but any other word i thought of to put in its place sounded worse). That still only makes 15% of the country.
Why do we feel the need to change the gender/ sexual orientation of characters. Especially the main character, where it then would have a domino effect on all the relationships that are developed throughout and before.
I dont feel the need to change the orentation or gender of every character. In fact if you go to my first post, I said that Dresden has to be cis male.
How much of the population they make up, is immaterial.
The problem with fan casting, is that they're very rigid, almost dogmatically so. And they place a lot of superficial elements with a lot of weight. LIke the fan casting for Dresden is generally very tall actors.
Even though tallness isnt that important of a character for Dresden. So much so that Jim Butcher doesnt think its a failure of casting for who they cast for the failed tv series and thought that Will Smith, would make a good Dresden. Neither of which were 6/7ish and only one of them was white.
Why this casting choice for Waldo Butters is so interesting, is that actually respects the characteristics that are important for Waldo. And realizes, "oh jewish doctors dont have to be male.'
And honestly all the other characters genders and orentations dont strongly matter. There are exceptions, where folks need to have natal childern. Thoughy that only matter for gentials but does not matter for orentation or gender.
If an adapation was made where these relations where now queer to some degree, there should some story changes because of it.
This doesnt matter. Its adapting into a different media, and new creative folks are working on, there will be changes because of the new medium and there should be flexiability to allow the new creative folks work in.
Dresden Files isnt perfect, and shouldnt bbbe treated as such and can be changed.
So in this Scenario does Walda Butters still end up with a hot female werewolf who later opts to share with a 2nd female werewolf or is Walda getting spitroasted?
Hey you threw out the premise. My mind flashed to Waldo telling Harry he better not fuck this up for him. Can you blame me, always had a thing for Kate Micucci. She used to do that Ash Ketchum impersonation that always got me.
Many Denny's locations are open 24 hours. I guarantee that questions like that get overheard by, and possibly asked directly to, the servers on the late night shift.
Kate Micucci is great but she isnât right.
Even if she was, I am sick to death of the disingenuous inclusion that is rampaging through entertainment IPâs old and new.
StarWars is now a dirty word thanks to such nonsense and I will not stand for it.
The Dresden Files is full of strong female characters.
The biggest baddest powers are all women so I donât think we need a gender switch for sake of difficult castingâŚ
The suggestion isnât. In and of itself. I personally am tired of gender switching characters for the sake of companies ticking boxes on a metric.
Actors like Kate deserve to be hired on the merits of their talent.
Not because an executive wants another woman in the cast to even out the representation in the project.
Why couldnât Kate be cast as one of the werewolves? Or Mavra?
Its a less role, with less story importance. Her character she often publically protrays better matches the nerdy neervious pathologist that gets a light saber eventually. I can totally believe Kate unironically enjoys Polka.
She recently did a good job of portraying a descent into madness in Guillermo del Toros Cabinet of Curiosities, hence my thinking Mavra would be a good role.
Not to mention we donât know how big a piece of the puzzle sheâll play in books to come.
I can't believe it's not Butters.
r/AngryUpvote
đđđ
You win
You're right. It's his sister, Margarine.
Good old Marge.
Approved, but she still gets with Andi.
And Marci. This casting makes it even better.
To me, Kate would make a good Marci casting.
I hadn't thought of that but it just makes her even better.
You had my curiosity, now you have my attention.
but they are men in the tv adaption, just to piss off the pervs that did like the 3some arc lol
Yep there's nobody into it for the polyamory representation, it's just for the implied sex /s
a ham-fisted shoe horned in fantasy about polyamory rather than delving into her real PTSD. It was a stupid storyline and feels fake and makes them out to be manipulative
I mean we really know nothing substantial about their relationship at this point. Is Butters actually a caring partner able to handle that kind of relationship? Is he just a cheesy nerd who's in it for the freaky sex (and the reader's wish fulfillment)? I'm waiting to see how Butcher handles it.
meh Butters kind of jumped the shark in the past 2 books
Did you take this photo with a Gameboy Color camera attachment or something?
How did you know
Okay, now THIS is perfect
I would 100% support a Kate Micucci Butters.
Got to love [Garfunkel and Oates](https://youtu.be/j8ZF_R_j0OY?si=QvC_CQZep8pcmtvI).
Alternate timeline Karrin and Harry
Go cart racing, accidentally masterbating.
She is so funny too. Perfect casting.
And I bet her musical talents can be used for polka. Polka will never die!
On some consideration, I think the only character where gender is important, is really only Dresden. With how sex is used to control him, and change him. And it'd be harder to hide a child from Dresden if they were the one to get preggers. The other character that may have a strong argument is for maybe Micheal. As much as we see him, as this totally caring and understanding person. Catholics does have a pretty firm stance about the family unit and marraige. And with how magic is inherited, it requires to get it from one of the parents. So they have to be fucking and having natal childern. Which means that adapation is out.
The Fairy Queens also have to be female to fit into the Trinity Goddess format. I agree with Harry needing to be male for multiple reasons. But... And it'd be harder to hide a child from Dresden if they were the one to get preggers. Skin Game spoilers: >!Bonnie' existence does suggest otherwise! đ!<
The Fairy Queens can be very androgynous. Like Arch Angle Gaberiel (I think) from the live action Constatine movie.
Cold Case (Short Story) seems to imply that the ability to become a mother/ or not is also very important for the positions.
Don't forget Murphy and Susan. I bet Lara could work her thing on Dresden even if her name were Larry, but those two have to be women if you want to adapt Harry as he is.
Yeah I think Murph not only being a woman, but being as small as she is is pretty critical. A ton of her struggles and insecurities are based around it
A good writer could give her other struggles and insecurities.
Yeah, but at that point is it even the same character?
âA good writer can totally change the characterâs motivations and insecurities which would change the character themselvesâ
Murph being a woman is not critical, even though it is a defining part of her character as is. It becomes more important that she is female as the story progresses but isnât critical. Dresden just needs to become bisexual and much of the story can stay the same. - I see RedPill has joined the thread
âItâs not critical, itâs just a defining part of her character that becomes even more important as the story progressesâ - thatâs some logic
âAs isâ, donât cut my words, words matter. And yes her being a woman doesnât matter in the early stories but does later, because Dresden is a straight male. Murphy being female only matters for Dresden to be sexually and romantically interested in her, it is not critical for the character.
It is critical because in the earlier books her being a woman is a cornerstone of her character. Her job being the main reason for it. You have to remember that the first book came out in 2000. And while we have come a long way since then, back then being a woman incharge of a division of a police department was not as common. Also why would anyone change it. Just for the sake of todays PC stance on anyone can be anything. Like why would anyone take a strong female character and do a gender swap. Im all for un-whitewashing and having different demographics in leading and central supporting roles. But switching it just because is a ridiculous thing to do.
On the first point, I would say it was important for culture buy not critical to the character. It is just word choice. Your second point is against the first. Her being a woman is representing an under represented demographic. - for me, this is more thought experiment, than a real requirement.
Right, I think as depicted White Court Vampires are so damn pretty and their powers work the way they do, that your gender/preferences doesnât protect you. Like Brad and Angelina during Mr and Mrs Smith, you would get into bed with either.
Susan yes, Murphy I think we could have a little wiggle room. Gay cop could face similar challenges as Murphy has in the books. Wouldnât be 1 to 1 but could still keep most the major beats.
Notice I said "if you want to adapt Harry as he is". In that scenario, i.e. straight horndog Harry, his love interest would have to be a straight woman. I am not against changing things in adaptation and making Harry and Murphy a gay couple wouldn't make the series any lesser, I just put a stupid constraint in the scenario.
I was more pointing out that the person you responded to said only Harryâs gender was important to the series. You said Susan and Murphy was also important, I was clarifying that really only Harryâs and Susanâs were needed for the story to unfold the way it has.
Idk Harryâs views on women are a pretty core part of his character, making Murphy into a gay dude would be a huge change for basically no reason or benefit to the story.
Eh, Harry's sexism would be even harder to justify as a bi person *because* it's not particularly strong and it gets weaker as time goes. He isn't closeminded, so you'd need to make him *more* closeminded if he was bi, to justify him not just getting rid of his paternalism. Would work, but he'd be a very different Harry. Please note I am not saying bi people can't be sexist - I am saying that the more open minded you are the more your sexism will decline with experience and a bi person's experiences are more varied in the realm of gender dynamics.
It would be great if the lgbt+ community was equally socially progressive on all things. But being that, doesnt them from holding any and all stances. And like everyone, they often dont start that why, they grow into that way by having different stances first.
I'm sorry, but did you read my second paragraph, because I wrote that *explicitly* because I was expecting this response. I am not saying the lgbtq+ community cannot have blind spots, I am saying that Dresden, as presented, starts out as both pretty sexist *and* open minded, and if he was bi he would've made *more* progress which would change the character's behaviour - so you either have a more progressive Dresden *or* you make him more close minded, to retain his current stance.
No, Murphy and Susan by any gender. Dresden doesnt need to be straight. He can be any color of the pride flag.
Their gender can be anyone, but Susan needs to be biologically capable of having an unintended pregnancy, though, so that is a little bit more restrictive.
Oh, well, yea forgot that Susan becomes a mom. But it hasnt been shown if the daughter has inherited any talent.
Maggie not showing any talent isn't central to the storyline (at this point, at least). We know what happened in Changes, don't we? The reason is that Maggie was born, so Susan has to be able to bear children, and Dresden has to be able to contribute to the bearing part. And a lot of Dresden's chauvinism won't work if he's trans or bi.
For most any character I agree. However Harry's straightness matters. His worldview of how he needs to be as a man and especially how he needs to be as a man in relation to women is too important to his flaws. Not to mention the *character introduced in Changes* of it all so that knocks out a few orientations. Butters? Butters can absolutely be genderbent or queerbent with zero issues. Doesn't effect any of his character, worldview, interactions, or plot.
Butter's sex is relevant only as the male nerd stereotype, but yeah, you can flip on that. ...and it just hit me that the Knights seem to be consistently male.
Well Murphy was a Knight for a bit.
And Susan was able to wield a sword for a hot minute. Though both of those are super short term in comparison to the other knightsâ tenures.
I'm pretty they state in the books some where that some knights only pick up the swords once and never return to it. But damned if I remember when and which book.
Spoiler skin game >!âMost Knights of the Cross serve for less than three days. Did you know that? They arenât always killedâthey simply fulfill their purpose and go their way.â!< >!conversation between Nicodemus and Murphy.!<
Thank you!! Nice to know I'm not crazy Lol.
You are on this Reddit. Â You may be crazy but you were not wrong. :-).Â
I think you need to feel the call to be a Knight - as in get a mission. Picking it up *for* a mission of your own doesn't feel like it counts - it's more like a loan than a calling.
Yea really hard to hide a child from a pregnant DresdenâŚ.
Yeah, Dresden should stay male and then Michael also should remain male. Michael represent âthe good manâ Dresden wishes he could be. The character needs that.
But by Dresden's gender being set that then sets a lot of other characters genders in relation to him so I'm not sure how you can say that. Karrin, Lara, Elaine, Susan for a start.
I dont know if you know this, but other orenetation beside being straight exists.
I dint know if you know this, but Harry is straight.
Its not intergral to the story for him to be so.
Yes it is, actually. Extremely so. Have you not read Changes?
It's a fundamental part of his character with direct implications to the story, that would require far reaching changes were it otherwise - which you seem happy to make - to adapt to your personal perferences. How about we leave the story as it was written by the author.
The amount of mental ghastics yooooo I have to perform to reach this conclusion is astounding
Ofcourse there is. But in recent years the surveys have shown a around 7.5% of the country is part of the Lgbt community. Even if you double that to account for those uncomfortable with answering truthfully or location survey biases. (Truthfully sounds more negative than it should but any other word i thought of to put in its place sounded worse). That still only makes 15% of the country. Why do we feel the need to change the gender/ sexual orientation of characters. Especially the main character, where it then would have a domino effect on all the relationships that are developed throughout and before.
I dont feel the need to change the orentation or gender of every character. In fact if you go to my first post, I said that Dresden has to be cis male. How much of the population they make up, is immaterial. The problem with fan casting, is that they're very rigid, almost dogmatically so. And they place a lot of superficial elements with a lot of weight. LIke the fan casting for Dresden is generally very tall actors. Even though tallness isnt that important of a character for Dresden. So much so that Jim Butcher doesnt think its a failure of casting for who they cast for the failed tv series and thought that Will Smith, would make a good Dresden. Neither of which were 6/7ish and only one of them was white. Why this casting choice for Waldo Butters is so interesting, is that actually respects the characteristics that are important for Waldo. And realizes, "oh jewish doctors dont have to be male.' And honestly all the other characters genders and orentations dont strongly matter. There are exceptions, where folks need to have natal childern. Thoughy that only matter for gentials but does not matter for orentation or gender. If an adapation was made where these relations where now queer to some degree, there should some story changes because of it. This doesnt matter. Its adapting into a different media, and new creative folks are working on, there will be changes because of the new medium and there should be flexiability to allow the new creative folks work in. Dresden Files isnt perfect, and shouldnt bbbe treated as such and can be changed.
I'm into it, if only because of the kind of people it would offend.
Makes so much more sense to have a woman character thatbisnt a love interest.and close to Harry. Martha liberty doesn't count.
Now I just had an image of Bob calling her *the council GILF*.
Just don't let the showrunners of Arrow near it.
She has jammed with Yankovich
And with Ted from accounting
Does Ted play Polka?
Maybe? Can polka be done a capella?
She has range
NGL this would probably actually work
The character Boris Grishenko from Golden Eye is who I see as Butters
Alan Cummings. Great actor. Also did a nice job as Nightcrawler in X-Men 2.
The only person I can picture in my head is JJ Abrams. I donât even know why, but whenever I think of what Butters would look like, I picture Abrams
Honestly, if we are going to genderbend Dresden Files characters, Butters is a pretty good choice.
I think sheâd be a better fit for the mousey werewolf chick, whose name escapes me.
Marci.
Absolutely. She is the perfect Butters.
So in this Scenario does Walda Butters still end up with a hot female werewolf who later opts to share with a 2nd female werewolf or is Walda getting spitroasted?
Sir, this is a Denny's
Hey you threw out the premise. My mind flashed to Waldo telling Harry he better not fuck this up for him. Can you blame me, always had a thing for Kate Micucci. She used to do that Ash Ketchum impersonation that always got me.
Gotta catch em all, I guess?
Many Denny's locations are open 24 hours. I guarantee that questions like that get overheard by, and possibly asked directly to, the servers on the late night shift.
Worked late night Denny's for years, can confirn đ¤Ł
But maybe they shouldn't
Probably, but making that argument because it's a Denny's is unlikely to convince those doing the asking.
Why must people force their unsolicited lesbian werewolf erotica on the pure hearted Denny's staff so vehemently
Yes.
Honestly, I'd be happy with it either way. Polyamorous representation can be any combination of genders!
Iâd be down to watch either of those things. For research purposes of course,
Just stop it...
Polka never dies.
Wilma
oh...oh HELL YEAH! IM ON BOARD WIT THAT SHIT! SHE'D FUCKIN ROCK THAT ROLE!
I was thinking D.J. Qualls for Butters.
Wait til the werewolves show up
Heck it. Why not? Works for me. Shed be a great butters I think. And by think, I mean know
I commend you on your choice!
This is genius.
I would support this.
Great casting! She'd be perfect!
I'm on-board with this.
Hell yes
OMG, if we genderswapped Butters, she would be wonderful!
Cook, brother.
Brilliant.
Yus!
New head canon for Wanda Butters.
Why? Just no...
Nooooooooo Do not congure it... do not temp the faiths... Theres no need or room for recast for inclusion on dresden files
Stop, just stop.
Kate Micucci is great but she isnât right. Even if she was, I am sick to death of the disingenuous inclusion that is rampaging through entertainment IPâs old and new. StarWars is now a dirty word thanks to such nonsense and I will not stand for it. The Dresden Files is full of strong female characters. The biggest baddest powers are all women so I donât think we need a gender switch for sake of difficult castingâŚ
Wait until I pitch Idris Elba for the Leanansidhe.
Go onâŚ.
đ¤Łđ¤Łđ¤Ł
How can this suggestion be disingenuous?
The suggestion isnât. In and of itself. I personally am tired of gender switching characters for the sake of companies ticking boxes on a metric. Actors like Kate deserve to be hired on the merits of their talent. Not because an executive wants another woman in the cast to even out the representation in the project. Why couldnât Kate be cast as one of the werewolves? Or Mavra?
Why cant Kate be cast as a major supporting character?
No reason, in general, I just donât think it should be Butters. And whatâs wrong with her playing Mavra?
Its a less role, with less story importance. Her character she often publically protrays better matches the nerdy neervious pathologist that gets a light saber eventually. I can totally believe Kate unironically enjoys Polka.
She recently did a good job of portraying a descent into madness in Guillermo del Toros Cabinet of Curiosities, hence my thinking Mavra would be a good role. Not to mention we donât know how big a piece of the puzzle sheâll play in books to come.