The funny part about all of this, is a lot of the cameras they're vandalising aren't even ULEZ cameras. They're just monitoring traffic.
Goes to show the lack of brain cells at work here
Reminds me of the time when a Qanon adjacent mob stormed the "BBC" to get to the bottom of why they were spreading "misinformation". Except they stormed the BBC Television Centre in Shepherd's Bush which no longer hosted BBC broadcasting.
The 5g stuff was way worse. It's at least possible to understand why someone might be angry with ULEZ. The 5g towers was just morons vandalising critical infrastructure because Facebook told them 5g activated bill gates brain microchips or whatever
This is driven by a similar impetus. A lot of the virulently anti-ULEZ rhetoric is rooted in demented anti new world order conspiracies centred around how "ULEZ" and "15 minute cities" (and by extension, any milquetoast traffic management policy, intended at reducing air pollution) are a preface towards ghettoisation and removal of freedoms.
Ugh the 15 minute cities is a particularly idiotic thing for Europeans to be worried about.
Parroting American paranoia that has little relevance here.
Many European cities are already close to being 15 minute cities, or large parts of them are. With effective public transport, walking and biking infrastructure. It works great.
The movement against it comes from America where cities are entirely car-centric with massively sprawling suburbia where driving is almost mandatory. A 15 minute city there would be a massive change rather than incremental improvements.
But American media content has such a presence everywhere that these paranoid theories are rubbing off on the hard of thinking here. You'll have Brits worrying about their guns being taken away next 😆
The ones that I have seen are infact the ULEZ cameras. This is mostly taking place round the corner from where my Mum lives in Hillingdon. Haven't got a problem with them damaging the ULEZ cameras as it currently costs me £12.50 everytime I go and see my Mum weekly.
Think the problem is that now they aren't just damaging the ULEZ cameras. They are cutting down traffic lights and the like anything with the ULEZ cameras on them. So it has a very big chance of causing an accident.
The British are great at being fed a shit sandwich and just putting some tomato sauce on it and swallowing it down. If this was France, it would be kicking off big time.
But after saying all of that, the guy who is publicising all of this on Instagram is an Anti Vaxxer and going on about Chem trails too.....
Cities in France with restrictions on polluting vehicles: Grenoble, Montpellier, Strasbourg, Paris, Lyon, Marseille, Reims, Toulouse, Montpellier, Nice, Saint-Etienne, Clermont-Ferrand.
That to me is the issue. If you want to take down ULEZ cameras, make sure you do that, without impacting traffic lights, pedestrian crossings etc. You might have to climb a bit but if the cause is important to you it should be worth it.
When I see people on other subs complaining about how the UK doesn’t riot when things are going wrong whilst simultaneously saying stuff like this is terrible and with not a hint of irony.
Same with people complaining about Just Stop Oil protestors, saying they should be less controversial without realising that’s never worked in the past.
It’s not working what they’re doing now. Everyone just hates them, just like the other group that would stop trains and whatnot for people trying to get to work.
Yes it gets people talking about them, but as how much they’re a bunch of cunts.
I can own a car and not hate them.
I suspect I might not agree with them on all things, but I can only summon a limited amount of hate and looking at the world around us, they're not even in the running.
Yes, but ULEZ isn’t that big of a problem.
What is it, like 3% of vehicles that this actually affects?
You can see how small a minority are actually getting annoyed by the ULEZ expansion in the election results.
Not only did Khan keep his seat, he actually gained 3.8% in the most recent election;
meanwhile the vocally anti-ULEZ candidate lost her party 2.6%.
Either ULEZ expansion is not the big issue that these guys are pretending it is or people actually quite like ULEZ: your choice.
In fact I can tell you because there was a poll done on which 3 issues are most important to people:
“Just 13% said [ULEZ] was a big issue compared to 45% who selected affordable housing, which was the top issue. More people (15%) saw parking as a major concern than the ULEZ”. - (George Smeeton)
In fact when it comes to the “bLaDe RuNnErS” most Londoners really don’t like them. 51% of all Londoners oppose the vandalism of ULEZ cameras and only 32% support it.
It’s really not fair to compare them to groups like Just Stop Oil and pro-democracy groups because the stuff they’re protesting are actually pretty fucking important and most people can agree that those things are good and worth protesting (although many would likely argue on the methods).
If I was to guess, I'd say most of the anti ULEZ people don't live in London, and will most likely never visit London.
If they were that concerned about poor people, they'd rally around any one of the potential unjustified cost of living crisis's which will impact all of us.
They took out the lights on a 40mph junction where I live. School children had to dash across and cars had to risk just to get where they wanted to be. And now we have to pay to replace them with our taxes...
Similar where I live, took one out where you cross a busy road to get to the train station. Absolute morons, but then they don’t give a toss about pedestrians.
Yeh these morons are just costing the people of London more money.
Did it stop people getting fined.. Nope
Do the councils then spend money replacing that could have been spent on better things elsewhere.. Yes
Whether you like ulez or not, it's there and this shit will not make it go away
They're following the French method which worked. Not that I agree but they stopped gatso cameras and wheel clamps by doing these shenanigans.
So it can work but it's a bad idea.
Why do people say this is the French method when France is covered in ULEZ zones? I sometimes wonder if people citing French as being permanently on the verge of rioting have lived there.
It's generally implemented differently, but they are there and I have a French ULEZ compliance sticker on my car. Go into the wrong areas on the wrong days and you get fined. It's not a charge either. You simply can't enter if your car doesn't meet the criteria, and the fine is big:
Aix-Marseille-Provence region
Bordeaux (coming in 2024)
Clermont-Ferrand
Grenoble
Lyon
Marseille
Montpellier
Paris
Reims
Rouen
Strasbourg
Toulouse
Not only.. it is even illegal to have computer map assist in France that tells you that cameras are coming up, or what the speed limit is. If you are caught, I think it is a E1000 fine.
That’s because when french people revolt it’s usually a good idea to listen, the last time the ruling class didn’t listen it ended with a lot of heads being separated from bodies.
And we had our own civil war which permenantly crippled the power of the absolute monarchy, shattered the Divine Right of Kings and placed power in to the electorate through the English civil war too.
It’s also, broadly speaking got the support of Londoners. Government will often do things some people don’t like; behaving like babies when that happens isn’t how a democracy is supposed to work.
I swear, old, right wing people are the biggest snowflakes
According to YouGov, the majority of people who the expansion would actually effect were against it, 51% opposed and 38% supported. Support from those already in the existing ULEZ was marginally higher than those opposed it!
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/46024-londoners-split-ulez-expansion
The majority of residents inside the zone do support ULEZ, because it is their air that they breathe.
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/plurality-of-londoners-support-expanding-londons-ultra-low-emissions-zone-ulez/
The statistic there counts people outside the zone who have to commute in and are impacted. But they don’t vote in the mayoral election.
The ULEZ expansion to outer London was way more politicised than the original one for inner London despite it only really affecting 3-4% of cars/drivers, most cars are already compliant and will pay nothing.
Secondly it was recently found that a lot of these groups advocating for attacking the infrastructure were run by or had involvement from conservative councillors looking to foster anger towards Labour given its a year of mayoral and national elections.
But obvious that you're going to get a load of hate from well off car drivers when it's the poorest that are most effected by bad air quality. Mostly as others have said, it's not even people that live there that have an issue, it's those that just commute through from even further out.
One thing drivers should really think about is that it may not been too obvious but when you're sat there in your car in traffic you're breathing all the same crap in as the people walking along next to you.
Tyranny by morons. Foreign policy decided by people who know nothing about foreign policy *but are really angry about it* and ULEZ laws decided by people who don't have to inhale the fumes *but are really angry about having to get a safer and more fuel efficient vehicle*
Interesting sample opinion poll.
It's really demonstrative of how effective opportunistic right wing pols can be in spreading disinformation and manipulating people into acting against their own interests.
You really have to be a special kind of idiot to support and campaign against a policy for clean air, as the dirty air is killing people, that marginally impacts a tiny number of people with polluting vehicles who have scrappage grants and were told 2 years in advance.
Some facts are needed.
1. Reason for ULEZ.
Imperial College London, globally renowned experts in air quality research, have looked at the health burden of air pollution in London. Their research found that in 2019, toxic air contributed to the premature deaths of around 4,000 Londoners. This includes deaths from alI causes, including respiratory, lung cancer and cardiovascular diseases.
2. Impact of ULEZ
In 2017, before the Mayor introduced the first clean air measure, the Toxicity Charge, compliance across London was just 39 per cent it's now 95 percent.
3. ULEZ affects 200,000 out of the around 2.3 million vehicles seen driving in London on an average day are non-compliant. That's 200,000 owners out of a greater London metropolitan est. population of 15.7 million.
4. The ULEZ changeover was The Mayor has also funded a £160 million scrappage and retrofit scheme to help Londoners, small businesses and charities switch. Up to £2,000 to scrap a car or up to £1,000 to scrap a motorcycle, with millions of pounds of support still available. Small businesses and charities are eligible to receive increased grant payments of between £6,000 and £11,500.
Straight away banning polluting cars isn’t the solution either, because the problem is the same.
Who can afford clean cars? Rich people. Who can’t afford changing their old crappy diesel cars? Poor people.
There needs to be a transition, and a very long term transparent plan.
Give at least 5 or 10 years moratorium to change a car to X. Where it’s is extremely clear what X means and what are the conditions.
Ban the selling of new cars that do not abide by X straight away.
Specify exactly for at least how much X cars will be allowed the drive, so to avoid that people buy the X car and 2 years later they have to change again.
As of the date X is enforced, put those cameras.
Since I’m not British, I don’t know. But if all this was actually what the government did, then fuck those Blade Runners
Good points, remember when it was diesel cars ware going to save the planet? Then diesel bad, followed briefly by small supercharged petrol engines for 20 minutes, currently it’s battery cars. Anyone trying to keep up with all this would have blown a lot of cash on cars. And diesel gate, and all the other manufacturers caught cheating, but I think only one man went to prison, funny that. Took one for the team. Bet he’s out now.
Diesel is the greatest scam ever.
All the financial incentives for diesel engines comes from the surge of Nuclear power plants replacing gasoline power plant. It was to help support Oil companies getting rid of their gasoline surplus that was there initially to run those plants.
Exactly why a lot of people like myself dont trust or believe the whole ULEZ thing.
Its a tax on the rich, and a cost to the poor. Your forcing people to upgrade cars, the same people that probably cant afford the ULEZ charge so they also cant afford a new car.
The issue arising is how often do they change the law, currently a lot of cars can enter ulez zones, but when does that change? 2008 petrol euro 5 (i believe) what about when its a 2015 model onwards, a 2020 model onwards, then electric only?
People cant afford to keep upgrading their cars.
Then you have the ridiculous nature of ULEZ zones where you can go in some and not others, i cant take my car into birmingham, bristol or london, but i can go bath, bradford, manchester, portsmouth etc etc.
And finally, were destroying, scrapping and removing vehicles from this country that actually have nothing wrong with them. In turn forcing the building of more cars to replace the ones that have nothing wrong with them.
Im all for clean air zones, im all for improving quality of life. But in its current format ULEZ and clean air zones are just a tax on the rich and a burden on the poor. If they actually wanted to improve these areas, they’d just stop all these types of cars accessing them and only allow approved vehicles.
blame central government for purposely not funding TFL to try and make Khan look bad.
Alson there was an upgrade scheme that was actually pretty generous and i know some people who actually made money off it..
Nah man you don’t have to upgrade your car. It’s literally only applying to diesels pre euro 6. Just get a petrol?
Literally my old mans 2002 3L Lexus IS300 is even ULEZ compliant - it’s really not like you have to have the latest and greatest.
Ye sorry forgot i have a few grand just laying around to buy a car.
Theres a lot of people struggling to pay their bills. You then have added stress of needing to sell a car not many want any more because ulez devalues them. Then find an over valued car because everyone wants ulez compliant cars and then hope it doesnt have any issues.
You looked around lately? Prices are coming down but simple fiestas are going for like 3-4k with 80k miles.
What about vans? I own a small construction company and own 3 vans and 2 personal cars. How am I supposed to buy 3 new vans? After the hit we took with covid in construction business thi is the last thing we need. It’s ridiculous
Iirc the problem with banning high-polluting vehicles is that London does not have the power to do that.
The GLA is restricted to what it can do by laws passed by Parliament. They are allowed to impose charges to enter areas (for the Congestion Charge), they're allowed to charge different rates based on emissions and so on (hence the original Ulez was legal), they can even ban all (or most) vehicles from an area, but they can't just ban only high-polluting cars from the whole of London.
Ulez is an awkward solution that has problems, but it is the best London can do without central government giving the more power, or introducing the system themselves.
That's how I see it. Look at Scotland. They flat out banned non compliant vehicles from their city centres, whereas London and other English towns and cities with their ULEZ, CAZ, and other schemes still allowed these vehicles access.
Yes. Even though my vehicle is non compliant, I would be much more supportive of this as to me, it would send a signal that it really is about the environment and not a cash grab to prop up a struggling transport system such as TFL.
Exactly the point I always make. If it was truly about health this would happen. But no let's spend shitloads on a camera monitoring system and suckers will think its all for their health.
Sadly a lot of us are that dumb to fall for it! And it would be more honest if it was just a ban.
If they really cared about the air we breathe, they should start with the filthy air in the London underground, the air quality is many, many times worse than on the surface above. I refuse to go in it.
Totally. Yet no attempt has been made to tackle this whatsoever because there's no money to be made with it. Its so bloody obvious yet seems no one can see through the BS.
The vitriol that this scheme is apparently still enduring is bad enough. There's no way that somehow stopping certain cars from entering ULEZ areas at all would go down any better. It'd be like telling rednecks that they can't have their guns no 'more.
I think that the ulez charge is like a pay as you pollute charge. Why should a rich person be able to pollute more in London?
If it was about the environment it would be time limited or something. I dunno I don't have the answers, but I am sure vandalism is not the answer
Add to that the new ulez zone extends past a lot of underground stations.
My situation now is from High Wycombe a trip to London is far cheaper just paying Ulez. I used to drive to Uxbridge/park royal and underground in but that's not an viable option any more.
New ulez has made me bring my diesel car into London.
Why don’t we get the big conglomerates to pay their fair share of tax then they can fund it. I’m not a climate change denier but we can’t let the working people be forced to fit the bill for the climate catastrophe.
We need a government that will set up a new independent body or something with the sole purpose of holding these corporations accountable. Corporate culture is out of control. Year on year the culture of apathy and subservience increases in our society. Deregulation has gutted our culture.
This deserves so many more upvotes.
Why are we placing the cost and blame on the average Joe, who is probably struggling to feed his dependants, instead of the rich bastard on a private jet flying over him?
I really can't get behind how so many people are pro-ulez on here.
The best part is they blame the working class for the pollution, take money from them and restrict them when far more pollution is done by extremely rich companies.
What people who are focusing just on the current application of these cameras are missing is that it provides an infrastructure for future politicians to use them for more totalitarian means.
This is the way 100%. The surveillance infrastructure in the UK is second only to China. ULez was just the final straw. The cameras need to go along with the politicians who use our money to put them up.
I’m all for it. It’s just a tax on the poor and these lot are standing their ground for what they believe is right and many people support them, including me.
The man filmed is called Matt Hardy, he's such a menace the council has to hire 2 security guards to protect the workers when any ULEZ work goes on even if it's just fixing the cable boxes. Cost to the council is huge.
And whilst some residents cheer on the removal of cameras, it'll soon be local councils forced to cut services further to fund even more ULEZ replacement works.
And a significant proportion of people don’t want to give up their convenience, whatever the cost. High vehicle use does not work well in cities and will never be sustainable.
> people don’t want to give up their convenience
Agree. Make public transport more convenient. The problem sorts itself. For me, it's a 25 minute drive or a 2.5 hour stint on the publics.
I would agree, but living outside London I picked up my girlfriend from Heathrow Terminal 5. The car park is in the ULEZ. Just the car park. The rest of my journey was not. Please explain how my campervan is polluting the local area (cough, UK's biggest airport) and thay this isn't just a way to suck more cash from people?
Yeah mate obviously tax the poor folk for driving old cars while letting off the politicians and billionaires with their expensive cars and private jets. That’ll teach us
Classic reddit.
JSO blocks traffic, vandalises public and private property: "Protest is supposed to be disruptive! MLK wasn't popular either! Change doesn't come from sitting quietly!"
These people vandalise cameras: "Fucking brain dead morons! You're just costing us money! This isn't how democracy works! Just get a different car!"
Can someone explain what the difference is in how the groups are behaving, without resorting to claiming that one cause is simply better than the other. Is protest good or not?
The better analogy for jso stopping traffic would be anti ulez people refusing to pay the fines.
This is more like jso destroying petrol stations or pipelines.
What the ulez people are doing isn't disruptive it just wastes council employees time and money, they're not really making a point or making a public scene, they're also not trying to communice to anyone why they are doing what they are doing or why it's worthwhile.
The Ulez scheme and cameras are broadly supported in London by Londoners whereas most people agree we need to move away from oil it's just they want it to be by policy decisions from the top.
Thanks for the genuine response.
I'm not sure if simply not paying the fines would be the equivalent, that'd be like saying that JSO simply not buying petrol is a protest in itself. Maybe if they just blocked the ULEZ cameras instead? I'm not sure. Either way, JSO (comparatively) get a lot of support for vandalising as well. Not paying ULEZ fines is not on the same level as vandalising stonehenge or aircraft.
Damaging the ULEZ cameras is certainly disruptive to the government, which is who they're trying to influence.
And again, if something is broadly supported, isn't that the reason people use to justify protests in order to 'raise awareness'. No point in protesting for something that's already supported, right!?
To clarify, I'm not for or against these protests, nor JSO's. I'm conflicted!
I was responding to your example of jso blocking traffic, I don't think (I might be wrong) that they got much support for the action at Stonehenge.
Personally I just don't get what these Ulez people want, my understanding is that the reason the scheme exists is people being seriously impacted by particulate pollution, that's hard to argue against.
The issue as I see it with jso is the majority support their aim but the government isn't acting, this is the direct opposite of the Ulez protesters (the majority support Ulez and the gov. acted)
Personally if I had the choice of a pint with an Ulez or a jso protester, I'd probably drink alone at the bar; even though i drive an old van for work (self employed tradesman) and i agree that we are destroying our planet with fossil fuels!
I think the premise of your post is flawed because there's a hell of a lot of people that agree with JSO's cause but are firmly against their method of protest. For me JSO fight for a just cause but fail to understand that they win by bringing along the general population to their way of thinking, their current protest method doesn't do this.
The anti-ULEZ lot are protesting against a policy that I and the majority of Londoners actually back.
I used to work for TfL many moons ago. If anyone thinks it's genuinely about being environmentally friendly then they are deluded. For example, about 10 years ago, I believe that any vehicles that produced 100g/km were exempt from the Congestion Charging Zone. Too many vehicles were compliant so it was dropped to 76g/km the year after which only affected a few vehicles at the time.
I'm not saying that the notion isn't a good one, what I am saying is that these ideas are also a money making exercise under the notion of being green. Doesn't mean that the guys doing it are right but I completely get the frustration when every supermarket/energy company/man and his dog are trying to extrude every penny they can get out of you.
I do not understand why you all think the government is your friend and giving them more power helps you. You'll destroy blocks for your football/soccer team but you won't defend your basic freedoms. This is why France is so much cooler than you. They know when to behead a monarchy.
I see a lot of smug “well it only affects 4 percent, and my (insert year) van here is compliant so it doesn’t bother me!”
Yeh it is compliant this year. Until when? The goalposts will shift and screw us until we are all paying. It has to stop now. We nip it in the bud or you are all going to be paying.
It has to expand. Climate crisis, etc. Honestly the reaction to this relatively mild measure in support of our environmental goals has me utterly depressed at the prospect of ever making the kinds of real changes that are necessary. People like the sound of green policies, as long as they affect someone *else*.
Major link between these whoppers and conspiracy circles. Lost my da to conspiracy shite, he's a totally different person now and unable to have a conversation without it going into full blown rants.
Although there is evidence on line about Sadiq khan and a load of other international city leaders proposing their route to 'pay per mile' (see C40 cities website) their aim, supposedly, is better climate and environment. It is also a means of gathering funds. These cameras probably will eventually be rolled out on other cities, as the original congestion charge was, and possibly/probably will eventually be used for the 'pay per mile' system...
However, the easiest and most disruptive way to cause a nuisance with these cameras would surely be to just smear vaseline over the front glass. No permanent damage, easy and cheap to rectify and no one can see that it's been done until they notice the captured images are all blurry and unreadable. Also, a lot quicker and easier to apply and less dangerous street infrastructure left lying around on the pavements that could cause harm to innocent and uninvolved people.
I'm not for all this bother personally, and can't really see a problem with charge per mile if it is done in a sensible way, but the conspiricist part of me does think a bit too deeply about digital id, all personal info on one id card that can be accessed by authorities, global digital banking etc and everything being linked together in some sort of totalitarian nightmare.
Not fussed about everything needed being within 15 minutes. That's what a lot of towns used to be like before big supermarkets and massive out of town shopping centres/malls. No one will stop you going further than 'your area'. That is just a load of tosh.
There are definitely arguments to be made about what is essentially yet another tax that disproportionately affects the worse off, and will be funneled into big-wigs pockets being bad.
But unfortunately this movement is being run by crackpot conspiracy theorists and has been totally discredited. Socialism of fools and all that.
This is a form of protest and direct action, which they’re entitled to do if prepared to deal with the legal consequences. Same as Just Stop Oil. I mean, at least these lot are blocking roads and defacing ancient monuments
Total wankers. The most recent ULEZ expansion was badly handled and disproportionately affects people with older vans like myself (still haven’t managed to find an affordable replacement because I’d have to go from a 1995 van to a 2017 onwards), but that’s a tiny percentage of the population and good compliant cars can be had for £1500 or so, so it’s pretty much only vans. Those of us who are affected just need to suck it up for the greater good, and even if you don’t see it that way, this vandalism isn’t going to do anything except cost the taxpayer.
I’m all for direct protest but I bet these idiots don’t even support direct protest when it comes to actual life and death causes, they’ve probably never marched for anyone else’s rights in their lives
That's my main issue with ULEZ.
A struggling family or person who can only afford an older model car, even one that doesn't cause that much pollution, are getting taxed but Bob the Banker who makes 500k a year and drives a 600bhp Range Rover Sport SV that gets 16 miles to the gallon and a 5.0L Ford Mustang on the weekends is completely exempt because he can afford the brand new models.
£1500 might not seem like a lot of money for me and you but there's a lot of people living on the breadline who can't afford to upgrade.
>A struggling family or person who can only afford an older model car, even one that doesn't cause that much pollution,
The car I owned 20 years ago (which is now about 22 years old) is ULEZ compliant, it's still on the road (I checked online) it's probably not even worth £500.
>is completely exempt because he can afford the brand new models
Because it's an emissions tax, not a wealth tax. Completely agree that Bob's Range Rover Sport should be taxed out of existence, though.
Some newer model cars have higher emissions than some of the cars that are being taxed though.
A new Land Rover Defender that's exempt is pumping out almost twice the Co2 as a non-exempt Volkswagen Golf from 2015.
That's what I find frustrating about the whole thing.
But ULEZ is not about CO2 emissions (which have a global impact) but the local particulate and NOx emissions (which the old Golf outputs more despite using half the fuel).
So, about making engines that burn fuel cleanly, not about how much fuel they use (well, other than indirectly).
Right but this isn't a greenhouse gas tax, it's an air quality tax. The goal isn't and has never been to cut down on CO2, just smog causing particulates.
I drive an old 2008 Renault Clio that’s ULEZ compliant. It cost me 3000£ 8 years ago. There are absolutely tons of even older and cheaper cars that are fine. Whilst those gas guzzling cars maybe compliant, it’s about the NOx emissions for clean air NOT fuel consumption. Those gas guzzlers pay a premium on parking permits and general car tax. Whilst I wish they paid more for their environmental harm I don’t think this argument is all that important when talking about ULEZ. General environmental concerns are valid though.
That's good if you can get by with a Clio but some of us genuinely need larger cars for work, for family life, for disability reasons, for pets, etc etc. That's why there are a variety of sizes and styles of car available. I wouldn't be able to manage with a Clio, for example. I drive a Mondeo, hardly a flash car and still less polluting than these huge SUV or crossover type things.
Toxic orange paint that killed the protected lichen and other organisms growth on the stone, not orange flower. It was a deliberate act of vandalism against a protected bit of heritage and a religious monument to many people too.
Normal people don't support "just stop oil" and their just stop existence bafoonery.
I'm all for clean air, but ULEZ is incredibly regressive and unfairly punishes the poorest.
Why aren't VW and the other mega corps who lied to us about diesel being clean made to fix this?
People are sick of having their pockets squeezed at every opportunity.
People are sick of having more and more restrictions placed upon their freedoms year on year.
ULEZ is the straw breaking the camel's back.
People have had enough of "poor people" taxes. ULEZ is a tipping point for a lot of people. Reddit obviously hates vigilantes but broadly these guys have support. Khan needs a better plan.
The majority of "poor people" around London don't even own a car but the pollution affects them the most. Most vehicles are already compliant. For example my 15 year old banger is fully compliant. These guys are just idiots as there are plenty of options to become compliant and the issue affects a small minority.
Because old cars were designed to a higher standard of polluting than modern cities can cope with, all the MOT does is check that the car is working as it was designed to do.
The MoT test only does HC, CO and visible smoke… whereas ULEZ covers invisible NOx and SO2, which are very harmful to humans too. It is a lot easier for car manufacturers to reduce CO, HC and smoke with catalytic converters, MAF for fuel burn calculations and so on but NOx is more due to the design of the engine and the emissions systems.
Fully support this. It’s nothing but a malicious money grab, under the guise of saving the environment. Time the people fought back hard because, otherwise, this will get rolled out country wide.
They got a domation "from America" for their tools to cut the posts down. The donation was probably from China, egging them on to wreck havoc on London.
People that do this dumb crap usually are unhappy in their own lives and feel the need to take their pent up aggression out on something. If it wasn’t this they’d find something els.
I spent 30 years as a despatch rider in London and air quality was terrible.
On some days you could just see the exhaust fumes hovering over the traffic.
It didn't want to disperse because of the huge buildings everywhere blocking the wind.
Same people will be angry when ULEZ price gets increased by £5 cause they have to cover the cost to replace all the cameras. ULEZ is not a perfect solution and has flaws but if you disagree with it then this is not the way to go about it, write to your local councillors and MP they’re there for exactly these kinds of concerns.
Silly billies costing everyone (including themselves) even more.
If the ULEZ was such an issue for Londoners, Khan wouldn't have gotten another term. But he did.
It's absolutely worth noting, particularly in London, car owners are a minority. And these criminals are a minority of that. It's also worth noting across all political parties the majority of voters support green policies (granted the Tory voters do have noticeably less support of such policies).
These people are costing the tax payer thousands in damaged property and ricking endangering lives as they will often cut down traffic lights in the process. The police really need to crack down on them.
While car ownership might be a minority in the central boroughs, it is FAR from a minority in the outer boroughs, which are those affected by the most recent expansion.
Vandalism like this just because you don't like something is petty and stupid. Yes okay it's an annoying charge for the people who have older cars, but I wonder how many of these vandals have a car that has to pay ULEZ anyway
How does everyone hate these guys? I'm all for clean air, but ULEZ schemes are a scam. How are the poor meant to travel? Shit trains always on strike? Shit buses that require a million changes to get a reasonable distance?
The government fuck us in so many different ways.i think we need more people doing things like this until we get a country that's run for the majority of the population. Not just for the rich.
That's 1 hours worth of wages if you're on a low wage, and you want to travel by your polluting car which you can't accord to replace. The rich either see it as not a problem because they have enough money for it to be a non issue, or avoid the "rich tax" by buying cars that don't have to pay the charge anyway.
The poor are penalised much more in real terms.
Most people in here are the reason why governments can do what they want and get away with it, facing no real opposition. You all should take lessons from Kenya and learn to protest things which aren't approved by gov/ngos and actually go against what the politicians want to do vs what the people really need
For real! We even had a mayoral election where this was the key issue that Sadiq won comfortably! They've got no claim at all that they are representing the views of Londoners, they're just vandals racking up everyone's tax bill.
These are some of the most uneducated fools on planet earth. Not only are they cutting down equipment that has nothing to do with ULEZ but they’re wasting taxpayers time and money with all the police call outs, local authority transport team assessments, replacements, works, traffic management etc.
I couldn’t be more in favour of removing highly polluting cars from our roads! If you want to drive a toxic vehicle around a city where kids sleep and play and their families live and work? Pay or GTFO.
Honestly lost sympathy for them when they blew one of the cameras up with a homemade bomb which damaged some people's cars and vans, and worse, shrapnel was blasted into a little kid's bedroom (kid thankfully wasn't in the room). Absolutely moronic.
The funny part about all of this, is a lot of the cameras they're vandalising aren't even ULEZ cameras. They're just monitoring traffic. Goes to show the lack of brain cells at work here
Reminds me of the time when a Qanon adjacent mob stormed the "BBC" to get to the bottom of why they were spreading "misinformation". Except they stormed the BBC Television Centre in Shepherd's Bush which no longer hosted BBC broadcasting.
Also protesting lockdowns, 2 weeks after they were lifted.
It’s the 5g towers all over again. RIP 4g and 3g towers, senseless violence and not even the right tower.
The 5g stuff was way worse. It's at least possible to understand why someone might be angry with ULEZ. The 5g towers was just morons vandalising critical infrastructure because Facebook told them 5g activated bill gates brain microchips or whatever
This is driven by a similar impetus. A lot of the virulently anti-ULEZ rhetoric is rooted in demented anti new world order conspiracies centred around how "ULEZ" and "15 minute cities" (and by extension, any milquetoast traffic management policy, intended at reducing air pollution) are a preface towards ghettoisation and removal of freedoms.
God I wished I lived in a 15 minute city
Ugh the 15 minute cities is a particularly idiotic thing for Europeans to be worried about. Parroting American paranoia that has little relevance here. Many European cities are already close to being 15 minute cities, or large parts of them are. With effective public transport, walking and biking infrastructure. It works great. The movement against it comes from America where cities are entirely car-centric with massively sprawling suburbia where driving is almost mandatory. A 15 minute city there would be a massive change rather than incremental improvements. But American media content has such a presence everywhere that these paranoid theories are rubbing off on the hard of thinking here. You'll have Brits worrying about their guns being taken away next 😆
The ones that I have seen are infact the ULEZ cameras. This is mostly taking place round the corner from where my Mum lives in Hillingdon. Haven't got a problem with them damaging the ULEZ cameras as it currently costs me £12.50 everytime I go and see my Mum weekly. Think the problem is that now they aren't just damaging the ULEZ cameras. They are cutting down traffic lights and the like anything with the ULEZ cameras on them. So it has a very big chance of causing an accident. The British are great at being fed a shit sandwich and just putting some tomato sauce on it and swallowing it down. If this was France, it would be kicking off big time. But after saying all of that, the guy who is publicising all of this on Instagram is an Anti Vaxxer and going on about Chem trails too.....
Cities in France with restrictions on polluting vehicles: Grenoble, Montpellier, Strasbourg, Paris, Lyon, Marseille, Reims, Toulouse, Montpellier, Nice, Saint-Etienne, Clermont-Ferrand.
I know, travelled in France last year and had to buy a certificate to show in my window to show my emissions, well the vehicles anyway 😉
That to me is the issue. If you want to take down ULEZ cameras, make sure you do that, without impacting traffic lights, pedestrian crossings etc. You might have to climb a bit but if the cause is important to you it should be worth it.
There are plenty of ULEZ exemptions that cover most ICE vehicles. https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/discounts-and-exemptions
Sadly they don't cover a 12 year old 2 litre diesel VW Transporter.
When I see people on other subs complaining about how the UK doesn’t riot when things are going wrong whilst simultaneously saying stuff like this is terrible and with not a hint of irony.
Same with people complaining about Just Stop Oil protestors, saying they should be less controversial without realising that’s never worked in the past.
It’s not working what they’re doing now. Everyone just hates them, just like the other group that would stop trains and whatnot for people trying to get to work. Yes it gets people talking about them, but as how much they’re a bunch of cunts.
I don't hate them, but then I don't own a car or own any fine art
I can own a car and not hate them. I suspect I might not agree with them on all things, but I can only summon a limited amount of hate and looking at the world around us, they're not even in the running.
Yes, but ULEZ isn’t that big of a problem. What is it, like 3% of vehicles that this actually affects? You can see how small a minority are actually getting annoyed by the ULEZ expansion in the election results. Not only did Khan keep his seat, he actually gained 3.8% in the most recent election; meanwhile the vocally anti-ULEZ candidate lost her party 2.6%. Either ULEZ expansion is not the big issue that these guys are pretending it is or people actually quite like ULEZ: your choice. In fact I can tell you because there was a poll done on which 3 issues are most important to people: “Just 13% said [ULEZ] was a big issue compared to 45% who selected affordable housing, which was the top issue. More people (15%) saw parking as a major concern than the ULEZ”. - (George Smeeton) In fact when it comes to the “bLaDe RuNnErS” most Londoners really don’t like them. 51% of all Londoners oppose the vandalism of ULEZ cameras and only 32% support it. It’s really not fair to compare them to groups like Just Stop Oil and pro-democracy groups because the stuff they’re protesting are actually pretty fucking important and most people can agree that those things are good and worth protesting (although many would likely argue on the methods).
If I was to guess, I'd say most of the anti ULEZ people don't live in London, and will most likely never visit London. If they were that concerned about poor people, they'd rally around any one of the potential unjustified cost of living crisis's which will impact all of us.
They took out the lights on a 40mph junction where I live. School children had to dash across and cars had to risk just to get where they wanted to be. And now we have to pay to replace them with our taxes...
Similar where I live, took one out where you cross a busy road to get to the train station. Absolute morons, but then they don’t give a toss about pedestrians.
At that point the road should be shut until the cameras are replaced, those Blade Runners would be much less popular if they slowed up the local area.
The stupidity of a lot of the comments here is now making me understand why we have had the Tories for 15 years. God help us.
So the British version of “Idiocracy” would be a documentary?
The existing version of Idiocracy was a prophecy.
I wish, atleast they voted in the smartest person on the planet, instead of what we have today.
And brexit... don't forget brexit.
Yeh these morons are just costing the people of London more money. Did it stop people getting fined.. Nope Do the councils then spend money replacing that could have been spent on better things elsewhere.. Yes Whether you like ulez or not, it's there and this shit will not make it go away
They're following the French method which worked. Not that I agree but they stopped gatso cameras and wheel clamps by doing these shenanigans. So it can work but it's a bad idea.
Why do people say this is the French method when France is covered in ULEZ zones? I sometimes wonder if people citing French as being permanently on the verge of rioting have lived there. It's generally implemented differently, but they are there and I have a French ULEZ compliance sticker on my car. Go into the wrong areas on the wrong days and you get fined. It's not a charge either. You simply can't enter if your car doesn't meet the criteria, and the fine is big: Aix-Marseille-Provence region Bordeaux (coming in 2024) Clermont-Ferrand Grenoble Lyon Marseille Montpellier Paris Reims Rouen Strasbourg Toulouse
Not only.. it is even illegal to have computer map assist in France that tells you that cameras are coming up, or what the speed limit is. If you are caught, I think it is a E1000 fine.
French don’t tend to protest things that are good for them and their children; they’re smarter than troglodyte brits
That’s because when french people revolt it’s usually a good idea to listen, the last time the ruling class didn’t listen it ended with a lot of heads being separated from bodies.
Yeah. In France "heads will roll" is literal.
And we had our own civil war which permenantly crippled the power of the absolute monarchy, shattered the Divine Right of Kings and placed power in to the electorate through the English civil war too.
Before Cromwell went full dictator and basically crowned himself king in all but name.
And attempted to create a dynasty by passing power to his son which went poorly due to another rebellion, yes.
It’s also, broadly speaking got the support of Londoners. Government will often do things some people don’t like; behaving like babies when that happens isn’t how a democracy is supposed to work. I swear, old, right wing people are the biggest snowflakes
According to YouGov, the majority of people who the expansion would actually effect were against it, 51% opposed and 38% supported. Support from those already in the existing ULEZ was marginally higher than those opposed it! https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/46024-londoners-split-ulez-expansion
The majority of residents inside the zone do support ULEZ, because it is their air that they breathe. https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/plurality-of-londoners-support-expanding-londons-ultra-low-emissions-zone-ulez/ The statistic there counts people outside the zone who have to commute in and are impacted. But they don’t vote in the mayoral election.
The ULEZ expansion to outer London was way more politicised than the original one for inner London despite it only really affecting 3-4% of cars/drivers, most cars are already compliant and will pay nothing. Secondly it was recently found that a lot of these groups advocating for attacking the infrastructure were run by or had involvement from conservative councillors looking to foster anger towards Labour given its a year of mayoral and national elections. But obvious that you're going to get a load of hate from well off car drivers when it's the poorest that are most effected by bad air quality. Mostly as others have said, it's not even people that live there that have an issue, it's those that just commute through from even further out. One thing drivers should really think about is that it may not been too obvious but when you're sat there in your car in traffic you're breathing all the same crap in as the people walking along next to you.
Yeah my family who live nowhere near the ULEZ are utterly incensed by it. I’m in it, and asthmatic, and have no issues
It has been weaponised for political purposes by the tories who are clutching at any straw to cling to power.
And brexit referendum was a consultative referendum so the result were not legally binding, yet here we are
Tyranny by morons. Foreign policy decided by people who know nothing about foreign policy *but are really angry about it* and ULEZ laws decided by people who don't have to inhale the fumes *but are really angry about having to get a safer and more fuel efficient vehicle*
Interesting sample opinion poll. It's really demonstrative of how effective opportunistic right wing pols can be in spreading disinformation and manipulating people into acting against their own interests. You really have to be a special kind of idiot to support and campaign against a policy for clean air, as the dirty air is killing people, that marginally impacts a tiny number of people with polluting vehicles who have scrappage grants and were told 2 years in advance. Some facts are needed. 1. Reason for ULEZ. Imperial College London, globally renowned experts in air quality research, have looked at the health burden of air pollution in London. Their research found that in 2019, toxic air contributed to the premature deaths of around 4,000 Londoners. This includes deaths from alI causes, including respiratory, lung cancer and cardiovascular diseases. 2. Impact of ULEZ In 2017, before the Mayor introduced the first clean air measure, the Toxicity Charge, compliance across London was just 39 per cent it's now 95 percent. 3. ULEZ affects 200,000 out of the around 2.3 million vehicles seen driving in London on an average day are non-compliant. That's 200,000 owners out of a greater London metropolitan est. population of 15.7 million. 4. The ULEZ changeover was The Mayor has also funded a £160 million scrappage and retrofit scheme to help Londoners, small businesses and charities switch. Up to £2,000 to scrap a car or up to £1,000 to scrap a motorcycle, with millions of pounds of support still available. Small businesses and charities are eligible to receive increased grant payments of between £6,000 and £11,500.
It affects people outside London who drive there.
How can you still get fined driving past a camera that's been sawed off? Also your comments also true replacing ulez with "oil"
I’d respect the idea if they actually banned the high polluting vehicles, rather than just charging drivers. This way it just sounds like a cash grab.
A fine means it is only a law for the poor.
Agreed. We should follow other countries and make fines proportional to income (also get rid of bullshit fines)
Yes if I’m rich I can pay a yearly subscription of clean air driving.
That's because it *is* a cash grab.
Straight away banning polluting cars isn’t the solution either, because the problem is the same. Who can afford clean cars? Rich people. Who can’t afford changing their old crappy diesel cars? Poor people. There needs to be a transition, and a very long term transparent plan. Give at least 5 or 10 years moratorium to change a car to X. Where it’s is extremely clear what X means and what are the conditions. Ban the selling of new cars that do not abide by X straight away. Specify exactly for at least how much X cars will be allowed the drive, so to avoid that people buy the X car and 2 years later they have to change again. As of the date X is enforced, put those cameras. Since I’m not British, I don’t know. But if all this was actually what the government did, then fuck those Blade Runners
Good points, remember when it was diesel cars ware going to save the planet? Then diesel bad, followed briefly by small supercharged petrol engines for 20 minutes, currently it’s battery cars. Anyone trying to keep up with all this would have blown a lot of cash on cars. And diesel gate, and all the other manufacturers caught cheating, but I think only one man went to prison, funny that. Took one for the team. Bet he’s out now.
Diesel is the greatest scam ever. All the financial incentives for diesel engines comes from the surge of Nuclear power plants replacing gasoline power plant. It was to help support Oil companies getting rid of their gasoline surplus that was there initially to run those plants.
Exactly why a lot of people like myself dont trust or believe the whole ULEZ thing. Its a tax on the rich, and a cost to the poor. Your forcing people to upgrade cars, the same people that probably cant afford the ULEZ charge so they also cant afford a new car. The issue arising is how often do they change the law, currently a lot of cars can enter ulez zones, but when does that change? 2008 petrol euro 5 (i believe) what about when its a 2015 model onwards, a 2020 model onwards, then electric only? People cant afford to keep upgrading their cars. Then you have the ridiculous nature of ULEZ zones where you can go in some and not others, i cant take my car into birmingham, bristol or london, but i can go bath, bradford, manchester, portsmouth etc etc. And finally, were destroying, scrapping and removing vehicles from this country that actually have nothing wrong with them. In turn forcing the building of more cars to replace the ones that have nothing wrong with them. Im all for clean air zones, im all for improving quality of life. But in its current format ULEZ and clean air zones are just a tax on the rich and a burden on the poor. If they actually wanted to improve these areas, they’d just stop all these types of cars accessing them and only allow approved vehicles.
blame central government for purposely not funding TFL to try and make Khan look bad. Alson there was an upgrade scheme that was actually pretty generous and i know some people who actually made money off it..
Nah man you don’t have to upgrade your car. It’s literally only applying to diesels pre euro 6. Just get a petrol? Literally my old mans 2002 3L Lexus IS300 is even ULEZ compliant - it’s really not like you have to have the latest and greatest.
Ye sorry forgot i have a few grand just laying around to buy a car. Theres a lot of people struggling to pay their bills. You then have added stress of needing to sell a car not many want any more because ulez devalues them. Then find an over valued car because everyone wants ulez compliant cars and then hope it doesnt have any issues. You looked around lately? Prices are coming down but simple fiestas are going for like 3-4k with 80k miles.
What about vans? I own a small construction company and own 3 vans and 2 personal cars. How am I supposed to buy 3 new vans? After the hit we took with covid in construction business thi is the last thing we need. It’s ridiculous
Iirc the problem with banning high-polluting vehicles is that London does not have the power to do that. The GLA is restricted to what it can do by laws passed by Parliament. They are allowed to impose charges to enter areas (for the Congestion Charge), they're allowed to charge different rates based on emissions and so on (hence the original Ulez was legal), they can even ban all (or most) vehicles from an area, but they can't just ban only high-polluting cars from the whole of London. Ulez is an awkward solution that has problems, but it is the best London can do without central government giving the more power, or introducing the system themselves.
That's how I see it. Look at Scotland. They flat out banned non compliant vehicles from their city centres, whereas London and other English towns and cities with their ULEZ, CAZ, and other schemes still allowed these vehicles access.
I think they’d have more support for an outright ban like that, I’m sure.
Yes. Even though my vehicle is non compliant, I would be much more supportive of this as to me, it would send a signal that it really is about the environment and not a cash grab to prop up a struggling transport system such as TFL.
That's why they should have done with the smoking ban. If you want to smoke inside. 12 quid a day.
Exactly the point I always make. If it was truly about health this would happen. But no let's spend shitloads on a camera monitoring system and suckers will think its all for their health.
Sadly a lot of us are that dumb to fall for it! And it would be more honest if it was just a ban. If they really cared about the air we breathe, they should start with the filthy air in the London underground, the air quality is many, many times worse than on the surface above. I refuse to go in it.
Totally. Yet no attempt has been made to tackle this whatsoever because there's no money to be made with it. Its so bloody obvious yet seems no one can see through the BS.
The vitriol that this scheme is apparently still enduring is bad enough. There's no way that somehow stopping certain cars from entering ULEZ areas at all would go down any better. It'd be like telling rednecks that they can't have their guns no 'more.
Well this is all great for the company making the cameras...
I think that the ulez charge is like a pay as you pollute charge. Why should a rich person be able to pollute more in London? If it was about the environment it would be time limited or something. I dunno I don't have the answers, but I am sure vandalism is not the answer
Add to that the new ulez zone extends past a lot of underground stations. My situation now is from High Wycombe a trip to London is far cheaper just paying Ulez. I used to drive to Uxbridge/park royal and underground in but that's not an viable option any more. New ulez has made me bring my diesel car into London.
Why don’t we get the big conglomerates to pay their fair share of tax then they can fund it. I’m not a climate change denier but we can’t let the working people be forced to fit the bill for the climate catastrophe. We need a government that will set up a new independent body or something with the sole purpose of holding these corporations accountable. Corporate culture is out of control. Year on year the culture of apathy and subservience increases in our society. Deregulation has gutted our culture.
This deserves so many more upvotes. Why are we placing the cost and blame on the average Joe, who is probably struggling to feed his dependants, instead of the rich bastard on a private jet flying over him? I really can't get behind how so many people are pro-ulez on here.
The best part is they blame the working class for the pollution, take money from them and restrict them when far more pollution is done by extremely rich companies.
What people who are focusing just on the current application of these cameras are missing is that it provides an infrastructure for future politicians to use them for more totalitarian means.
This is the way 100%. The surveillance infrastructure in the UK is second only to China. ULez was just the final straw. The cameras need to go along with the politicians who use our money to put them up.
What do you propose they do, lye down and do nothing? Hold up the roads like the just stop oil twats?
I’m all for it. It’s just a tax on the poor and these lot are standing their ground for what they believe is right and many people support them, including me.
so dont stop oil get pre-crime arrested, but this lot just do it in the open and the police arent arresting them for planning it
Tbf it's easier to identify people that go out in high-vizes and glue themselves to roads than people that go out clad in balaclavas and ninja attire.
They got arrested for eating soup together, they arrested them for conspiracy, they hadn’t actually done anything
The man filmed is called Matt Hardy, he's such a menace the council has to hire 2 security guards to protect the workers when any ULEZ work goes on even if it's just fixing the cable boxes. Cost to the council is huge.
And whilst some residents cheer on the removal of cameras, it'll soon be local councils forced to cut services further to fund even more ULEZ replacement works.
Well done !
"I'm all for protest- but not like *that*" -the stock liberal response.
So what’s their solution to the pollution and congestion problem?
The solution is to make public transport so cheap and frequent that taking your car is much more expensive
This is the only answer, but it will never happen because politicians don’t give two shits about public health, it’s only money.
And a significant proportion of people don’t want to give up their convenience, whatever the cost. High vehicle use does not work well in cities and will never be sustainable.
> people don’t want to give up their convenience Agree. Make public transport more convenient. The problem sorts itself. For me, it's a 25 minute drive or a 2.5 hour stint on the publics.
I have a solution. They'd like it a lot less than the ULEZ expansion, though.
I would agree, but living outside London I picked up my girlfriend from Heathrow Terminal 5. The car park is in the ULEZ. Just the car park. The rest of my journey was not. Please explain how my campervan is polluting the local area (cough, UK's biggest airport) and thay this isn't just a way to suck more cash from people?
They don't have one. They don't care. The health of future generations isn't worth the inconvenience to them.
Yep. Largely it’s just people with selfish interests moaning.
Yeah mate obviously tax the poor folk for driving old cars while letting off the politicians and billionaires with their expensive cars and private jets. That’ll teach us
They are not mutually exclusive.
Classic reddit. JSO blocks traffic, vandalises public and private property: "Protest is supposed to be disruptive! MLK wasn't popular either! Change doesn't come from sitting quietly!" These people vandalise cameras: "Fucking brain dead morons! You're just costing us money! This isn't how democracy works! Just get a different car!" Can someone explain what the difference is in how the groups are behaving, without resorting to claiming that one cause is simply better than the other. Is protest good or not?
The better analogy for jso stopping traffic would be anti ulez people refusing to pay the fines. This is more like jso destroying petrol stations or pipelines. What the ulez people are doing isn't disruptive it just wastes council employees time and money, they're not really making a point or making a public scene, they're also not trying to communice to anyone why they are doing what they are doing or why it's worthwhile. The Ulez scheme and cameras are broadly supported in London by Londoners whereas most people agree we need to move away from oil it's just they want it to be by policy decisions from the top.
Thanks for the genuine response. I'm not sure if simply not paying the fines would be the equivalent, that'd be like saying that JSO simply not buying petrol is a protest in itself. Maybe if they just blocked the ULEZ cameras instead? I'm not sure. Either way, JSO (comparatively) get a lot of support for vandalising as well. Not paying ULEZ fines is not on the same level as vandalising stonehenge or aircraft. Damaging the ULEZ cameras is certainly disruptive to the government, which is who they're trying to influence. And again, if something is broadly supported, isn't that the reason people use to justify protests in order to 'raise awareness'. No point in protesting for something that's already supported, right!? To clarify, I'm not for or against these protests, nor JSO's. I'm conflicted!
I was responding to your example of jso blocking traffic, I don't think (I might be wrong) that they got much support for the action at Stonehenge. Personally I just don't get what these Ulez people want, my understanding is that the reason the scheme exists is people being seriously impacted by particulate pollution, that's hard to argue against. The issue as I see it with jso is the majority support their aim but the government isn't acting, this is the direct opposite of the Ulez protesters (the majority support Ulez and the gov. acted) Personally if I had the choice of a pint with an Ulez or a jso protester, I'd probably drink alone at the bar; even though i drive an old van for work (self employed tradesman) and i agree that we are destroying our planet with fossil fuels!
It's actually loony that redditors will support so much weird stuff but not stopping ULEZ.
I think the premise of your post is flawed because there's a hell of a lot of people that agree with JSO's cause but are firmly against their method of protest. For me JSO fight for a just cause but fail to understand that they win by bringing along the general population to their way of thinking, their current protest method doesn't do this. The anti-ULEZ lot are protesting against a policy that I and the majority of Londoners actually back.
At least u know how shit the police is.
I used to work for TfL many moons ago. If anyone thinks it's genuinely about being environmentally friendly then they are deluded. For example, about 10 years ago, I believe that any vehicles that produced 100g/km were exempt from the Congestion Charging Zone. Too many vehicles were compliant so it was dropped to 76g/km the year after which only affected a few vehicles at the time. I'm not saying that the notion isn't a good one, what I am saying is that these ideas are also a money making exercise under the notion of being green. Doesn't mean that the guys doing it are right but I completely get the frustration when every supermarket/energy company/man and his dog are trying to extrude every penny they can get out of you.
I approve of a reciprocating saw to do this quickly and efficiently. Bosch torch blades are even more effective at cutting through steel at speed
I do not understand why you all think the government is your friend and giving them more power helps you. You'll destroy blocks for your football/soccer team but you won't defend your basic freedoms. This is why France is so much cooler than you. They know when to behead a monarchy.
No lies told.
France has Ulez.
Soccer, is it now? Worry about your own freedom and things like Roe and Chevron and everything else happening right now in Gilead. We are just fine.
it is 100% the way. The government will not listen
I see a lot of smug “well it only affects 4 percent, and my (insert year) van here is compliant so it doesn’t bother me!” Yeh it is compliant this year. Until when? The goalposts will shift and screw us until we are all paying. It has to stop now. We nip it in the bud or you are all going to be paying.
It has to expand. Climate crisis, etc. Honestly the reaction to this relatively mild measure in support of our environmental goals has me utterly depressed at the prospect of ever making the kinds of real changes that are necessary. People like the sound of green policies, as long as they affect someone *else*.
doing god's work lads
Major link between these whoppers and conspiracy circles. Lost my da to conspiracy shite, he's a totally different person now and unable to have a conversation without it going into full blown rants.
This is absolutely the way
Absolute heroes!
Although there is evidence on line about Sadiq khan and a load of other international city leaders proposing their route to 'pay per mile' (see C40 cities website) their aim, supposedly, is better climate and environment. It is also a means of gathering funds. These cameras probably will eventually be rolled out on other cities, as the original congestion charge was, and possibly/probably will eventually be used for the 'pay per mile' system... However, the easiest and most disruptive way to cause a nuisance with these cameras would surely be to just smear vaseline over the front glass. No permanent damage, easy and cheap to rectify and no one can see that it's been done until they notice the captured images are all blurry and unreadable. Also, a lot quicker and easier to apply and less dangerous street infrastructure left lying around on the pavements that could cause harm to innocent and uninvolved people. I'm not for all this bother personally, and can't really see a problem with charge per mile if it is done in a sensible way, but the conspiricist part of me does think a bit too deeply about digital id, all personal info on one id card that can be accessed by authorities, global digital banking etc and everything being linked together in some sort of totalitarian nightmare. Not fussed about everything needed being within 15 minutes. That's what a lot of towns used to be like before big supermarkets and massive out of town shopping centres/malls. No one will stop you going further than 'your area'. That is just a load of tosh.
There are definitely arguments to be made about what is essentially yet another tax that disproportionately affects the worse off, and will be funneled into big-wigs pockets being bad. But unfortunately this movement is being run by crackpot conspiracy theorists and has been totally discredited. Socialism of fools and all that.
OK, no more ulez anywhere, you win: the government, never.
This is a form of protest and direct action, which they’re entitled to do if prepared to deal with the legal consequences. Same as Just Stop Oil. I mean, at least these lot are blocking roads and defacing ancient monuments
They're not "entitled" to permanently damage public property.
Yes it is the way?
Some of these comments on here are proper tin foil hat…
Ask the french how they stopped traffic cameras 😂 but they are stupid by not making sure what they are destroying 😂
ULEZ is based on a lie, and is simply a cash extraction tool. It shouldn't be tolerated.
Redditors love the government's boot on their neck apparently.
Only when the Government at the time just happens to be wearing the boot those Redditors like.
Total wankers. The most recent ULEZ expansion was badly handled and disproportionately affects people with older vans like myself (still haven’t managed to find an affordable replacement because I’d have to go from a 1995 van to a 2017 onwards), but that’s a tiny percentage of the population and good compliant cars can be had for £1500 or so, so it’s pretty much only vans. Those of us who are affected just need to suck it up for the greater good, and even if you don’t see it that way, this vandalism isn’t going to do anything except cost the taxpayer. I’m all for direct protest but I bet these idiots don’t even support direct protest when it comes to actual life and death causes, they’ve probably never marched for anyone else’s rights in their lives
That's my main issue with ULEZ. A struggling family or person who can only afford an older model car, even one that doesn't cause that much pollution, are getting taxed but Bob the Banker who makes 500k a year and drives a 600bhp Range Rover Sport SV that gets 16 miles to the gallon and a 5.0L Ford Mustang on the weekends is completely exempt because he can afford the brand new models. £1500 might not seem like a lot of money for me and you but there's a lot of people living on the breadline who can't afford to upgrade.
>A struggling family or person who can only afford an older model car, even one that doesn't cause that much pollution, The car I owned 20 years ago (which is now about 22 years old) is ULEZ compliant, it's still on the road (I checked online) it's probably not even worth £500.
>is completely exempt because he can afford the brand new models Because it's an emissions tax, not a wealth tax. Completely agree that Bob's Range Rover Sport should be taxed out of existence, though.
Some newer model cars have higher emissions than some of the cars that are being taxed though. A new Land Rover Defender that's exempt is pumping out almost twice the Co2 as a non-exempt Volkswagen Golf from 2015. That's what I find frustrating about the whole thing.
But ULEZ is not about CO2 emissions (which have a global impact) but the local particulate and NOx emissions (which the old Golf outputs more despite using half the fuel). So, about making engines that burn fuel cleanly, not about how much fuel they use (well, other than indirectly).
I pay 0 tax due to low emissions but my vehicle isn't ulez compliant, as it is euro 5 not euro 6 diesel.
Right but this isn't a greenhouse gas tax, it's an air quality tax. The goal isn't and has never been to cut down on CO2, just smog causing particulates.
I drive an old 2008 Renault Clio that’s ULEZ compliant. It cost me 3000£ 8 years ago. There are absolutely tons of even older and cheaper cars that are fine. Whilst those gas guzzling cars maybe compliant, it’s about the NOx emissions for clean air NOT fuel consumption. Those gas guzzlers pay a premium on parking permits and general car tax. Whilst I wish they paid more for their environmental harm I don’t think this argument is all that important when talking about ULEZ. General environmental concerns are valid though.
That's good if you can get by with a Clio but some of us genuinely need larger cars for work, for family life, for disability reasons, for pets, etc etc. That's why there are a variety of sizes and styles of car available. I wouldn't be able to manage with a Clio, for example. I drive a Mondeo, hardly a flash car and still less polluting than these huge SUV or crossover type things.
You can 100% bet they disagreed with Just Stop Oil sitting in the road (and therefore not actually damaging anything)
Not found a replacement, are you paying the fines?
Worked for the french
And they get away with it. Put a bit of non permanent pain on something to protest the environment and see how quick you're arrested..
and pedestrian crossings. I like how he films himself committing the crime too.
I’d like to see these guys and the just stop oil whacks go at it
Kinda reminds me of the luddites lmao
Gods work
Taxpayers money 🤦♂️
That's not actually vigilantism. It's just criminal.
but a bit of flour on stonehenge makes you the devil, eh?
Toxic orange paint that killed the protected lichen and other organisms growth on the stone, not orange flower. It was a deliberate act of vandalism against a protected bit of heritage and a religious monument to many people too. Normal people don't support "just stop oil" and their just stop existence bafoonery.
I'm all for clean air, but ULEZ is incredibly regressive and unfairly punishes the poorest. Why aren't VW and the other mega corps who lied to us about diesel being clean made to fix this?
All fun and games until they get caught and they will have the book thrown at them for taking away the gov cash machine.
Why do people object so hard to breathing clean air?
Fuck government surveillance.
Well the powers that be don't listen to people protests so what do they expect?
This is the way.
Nah fuck them ULEZ cameras
Doing the lords work
People are sick of having their pockets squeezed at every opportunity. People are sick of having more and more restrictions placed upon their freedoms year on year. ULEZ is the straw breaking the camel's back.
Ulez is an attack on poor people
Good on them
Good job
People have had enough of "poor people" taxes. ULEZ is a tipping point for a lot of people. Reddit obviously hates vigilantes but broadly these guys have support. Khan needs a better plan.
The majority of "poor people" around London don't even own a car but the pollution affects them the most. Most vehicles are already compliant. For example my 15 year old banger is fully compliant. These guys are just idiots as there are plenty of options to become compliant and the issue affects a small minority.
It was forced on him by the government. The TfL bail out required due to the pandemic was contingent on expanding the ULEZ.
Why do we get our cars emissions checked at an MOT and told it's fine, but then also have to pay for driving and told they're too pollutant
Would you rather the other way? Where nationwide the MOT has the same emissions requirements as the London ULEZ? Sounds good to me.
yup, I'm all for that!
Because old cars were designed to a higher standard of polluting than modern cities can cope with, all the MOT does is check that the car is working as it was designed to do.
The MoT test only does HC, CO and visible smoke… whereas ULEZ covers invisible NOx and SO2, which are very harmful to humans too. It is a lot easier for car manufacturers to reduce CO, HC and smoke with catalytic converters, MAF for fuel burn calculations and so on but NOx is more due to the design of the engine and the emissions systems.
This is not the way. We should NEVER take action against our corporate overlords for they mote bequeath our daily bread!
It is absolutely the way! The populace say No, cuntface Khan will not steal £12.50 from me.
Finally a protest group doing something productive for the people!!
Legends
Good luck to them, at least someone has some balls
Fully support this. It’s nothing but a malicious money grab, under the guise of saving the environment. Time the people fought back hard because, otherwise, this will get rolled out country wide.
They got a domation "from America" for their tools to cut the posts down. The donation was probably from China, egging them on to wreck havoc on London.
People that do this dumb crap usually are unhappy in their own lives and feel the need to take their pent up aggression out on something. If it wasn’t this they’d find something els.
I spent 30 years as a despatch rider in London and air quality was terrible. On some days you could just see the exhaust fumes hovering over the traffic. It didn't want to disperse because of the huge buildings everywhere blocking the wind.
Same people will be angry when ULEZ price gets increased by £5 cause they have to cover the cost to replace all the cameras. ULEZ is not a perfect solution and has flaws but if you disagree with it then this is not the way to go about it, write to your local councillors and MP they’re there for exactly these kinds of concerns.
Silly billies costing everyone (including themselves) even more. If the ULEZ was such an issue for Londoners, Khan wouldn't have gotten another term. But he did.
It's absolutely worth noting, particularly in London, car owners are a minority. And these criminals are a minority of that. It's also worth noting across all political parties the majority of voters support green policies (granted the Tory voters do have noticeably less support of such policies). These people are costing the tax payer thousands in damaged property and ricking endangering lives as they will often cut down traffic lights in the process. The police really need to crack down on them.
While car ownership might be a minority in the central boroughs, it is FAR from a minority in the outer boroughs, which are those affected by the most recent expansion.
And yet when I say that laws that screw over minorities are fine so long as the majority agree, I get lambasted. The dichotomy of reddit.
Vandalism like this just because you don't like something is petty and stupid. Yes okay it's an annoying charge for the people who have older cars, but I wonder how many of these vandals have a car that has to pay ULEZ anyway
And what’s the alternative? Do they really think there should be no limit on how polluting a vehicle is allowed to be in a densely populated area?
How does everyone hate these guys? I'm all for clean air, but ULEZ schemes are a scam. How are the poor meant to travel? Shit trains always on strike? Shit buses that require a million changes to get a reasonable distance? The government fuck us in so many different ways.i think we need more people doing things like this until we get a country that's run for the majority of the population. Not just for the rich.
That's 1 hours worth of wages if you're on a low wage, and you want to travel by your polluting car which you can't accord to replace. The rich either see it as not a problem because they have enough money for it to be a non issue, or avoid the "rich tax" by buying cars that don't have to pay the charge anyway. The poor are penalised much more in real terms.
Most people in here are the reason why governments can do what they want and get away with it, facing no real opposition. You all should take lessons from Kenya and learn to protest things which aren't approved by gov/ngos and actually go against what the politicians want to do vs what the people really need
Same. I don’t buy into the whole ‘it’s just costing the taxpayer more money’. It’s a very weak mindset.
Domestic terrorism.
For real! We even had a mayoral election where this was the key issue that Sadiq won comfortably! They've got no claim at all that they are representing the views of Londoners, they're just vandals racking up everyone's tax bill.
These are some of the most uneducated fools on planet earth. Not only are they cutting down equipment that has nothing to do with ULEZ but they’re wasting taxpayers time and money with all the police call outs, local authority transport team assessments, replacements, works, traffic management etc. I couldn’t be more in favour of removing highly polluting cars from our roads! If you want to drive a toxic vehicle around a city where kids sleep and play and their families live and work? Pay or GTFO.
They hate clean air in those parts lol
lol imagine not only breaking the law multiple times, but deciding to record themselves doing it and posting it online as evidence. Morons.
Honestly lost sympathy for them when they blew one of the cameras up with a homemade bomb which damaged some people's cars and vans, and worse, shrapnel was blasted into a little kid's bedroom (kid thankfully wasn't in the room). Absolutely moronic.